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You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. On March thirteenth, nineteen eighty, in Ventura County, California, prominent attorney Lyman Robert Smith, on the verge of being appointed a superior Court judge and his wife, Sharlene were murdered in their home. Author Anne Penn, her actual name Laurie, is the couple's niece. She was close to her grandfather, Lymon's father, and saw
the devastating impact the murders had on the family. Once she realized it was the work of Easteria rapists original night Stalker, Laurie vowed to do all she could to
investigate and help solve the incredible serial murder mystery. She was hopeful, convinced that advances in familiar DNA, along with dogged law enforcement, would make an arrest, and she believed the killer still and had always lived in Sacramento, and that Easterio Rapist Original Nightstalker had possibly targeted her family members four hundred miles away in southern California to kill them.
FBI investigator Paul Hols used DNA re recovered from one of the Easter Ay Rapists Original night Stalker crime scenes to first find the killer's great great grandparents and painstakingly worked through thousands of relatives to the present day. The investigation led to a seventy two year old retiree living in the Sacramento suburb of Citrus Heights. On April twenty fourth,
Joseph James DiAngelo was arrested. Laurie will discuss the case, her reaction, her predictions and conclusions, and what she will do now regarding this still for her unfolding investigation, the subject that we're dealing with this evening and the book Easter Ay Rapist, Original Nightstalker, Golden State Killer Unmasked. A family member speaks out and Penn, welcome to the program. Thank you very much for greeing this interview, and Penn, or as I should say, Lourie, welcome to the program.
Thank you, Dan.
How are you, Oh, very fine, Thank you very fine. Thank you. First off, I just got to get I haven't spoken to you personally. I wanted to save this moment and savor it for just your thoughts when you Where were you, How did you hear about this? What tell us about this? What was your reaction?
Well, it was really amazing that I haven't been to Sacramento in a while to visit friends. And I was taking a break and was actually in Sacramento visiting and was staying with a friend, and I said, can I check the computer. I didn't bring my laptop, I didn't bring any devices anything with me, and so I was on the computer for a few minutes and realized something was happening with the case and that I was like, well, it sounds kind of vague and not really, I'm not sure.
And then I talked to one of the people on the pro boards that I kind of check in on about the case, and he reassured me. He said, I promise you, and it is one hundred percent real and it's one hundred percent DNA match. And that's when I could go to bed. It was three o'clock in the morning. By then I was trying to find deep tells an
information for about three hours. So the next morning I was told they would have a press conference in Sacramento, and so it was just very surreal because I'm never in Sacramento except to visit friends once in a while. And I actually ended up at the home of a friend that, ironically enough, was the friend who when I was chased down the street in nineteen seventy one. She was her front door. I ran to I was actually in her home when I found this out. I was just like, wow, wow.
Yeah, that's a wow moment. Yeah.
She was like, she was like, I can't believe this. You know, I could talk about full circle, you know, when the fear began when I got chased, and it went on until all of a sudden, I'm relieved that this guy's sitting in a thefell a little box. I was actually driving on the freeway past J Street, and the next day after the announcement by all the different jurisdictions, and I have to tell you, I mentally had to uh sort of give him a what do you call it?
With your hands down. Yeah, it was great relief to know he was just a few blocks away sitting in a box.
Yeah. And you sound you sound a lot better too. I mean you sound different. I mean, I just interviewed Richard Shelby, and you know, I'm I'm sure, like you said, nobody's celebrating in law enforcement, but uh, it's relief and it's and it's a different response for you. This this means more. I mean, if it can mean more than it means to a dedicated detective who's lived with it his entire career and then be on right up to
the present moment. But as we will hear from you, it it can and and it has it when an.
Interesting rollercoaster of emotions.
So I would say, certainly understatement. Now when you found out the name, and again I alluded to that you know this is now will what will Laurie do regarding this still for her unfolding investigation And I'm trying to be dramatic, but it's not untrue that this is still unfolding for you. You're still I know from the two books that you've written already, you're obsessed, obsession with this case,
your need to solve this. You've done a lot of speculation, You've done a lot of predicting, You've done a lot of encouraging, we'll say, and criticism where criticism may be needed. But what happened when you heard the name Joseph James DeAngelo and then realized, as like Richard Shelby said, he's
been there since the seventies in Citrus Heights. What was your reaction when you heard number one that you had predicted all along that he was from Sacramento, he still is in Sacramento, and so what was your reaction when number one you thought you were right, that was verified. What was your reaction to finding out where he had lived?
Well, of course I wasn't the only one who had come to that conclusion. But I investigated the case, as you know, over time, for quite some time. And one day I picked up the phone and I called Larry Crompton, who I had previously contacted after I had read his book a couple of years back, and I said, here's what I think. And he was really great because he always listened and he always believed whatever it was you
had to say, and he was always very supportive. And I said, this is what I think's I said, I think that he is from Sacramento. I think he lived in Sacramento at the time. I think he's still there. I think he's probably never been in any trouble, which is why we can't find his DNA. And it was terrifying to me to think that he was still not too far from where I lived, and I wrote a
book about him, so that was kind of scary. But I wanted to get the word out to Sacramento people because I was so certain that he was still there. Because he was arrogant, he was living under everyone's nose. It's not untypical of a serial killer to try to fit into a community and just stay there and kind of hide in a family, which is what he did,
and never leave that area. And what's really arrogant about him was that he picked Citrus Heights to buy a home in nineteen seventy nine and he lived in his attack areas. And that just irks me, no, and I can't tell you. I'm sure it irks all the victims and all the families that involved that he was just sitting there all this time and thought that he would never be caught, And he was even surprised when they arrested him because he really probably never thought they would figure it out.
So now you talk about in your book, and you talked personally that you had a lot of conversations with Paul Holes, the lead investigator, And then I spoke to Richard Shelby yesterday last evening. On the interview, he said that credit really has to go to a lot of people, but especially Paul Holes for being innovative and also just the great work he was doing. And I don't know if he was official spokesman for the FBI, but he
sure acted as such. Tell us about some of the conversations you had with Paul Holes and the relationship you developed, you know, even though you're on different sides of the equation here in this case. And also a little bit about the explanation. I have the explanation on what exactly he did, but tell us a little bit about your relationship with Paul Holes before this arrest.
Well, the day that I old Larry Compton that I thought he was still in Sacramento, I think his job probably hit the floor because he was surprised that that was the conclusion I had come to. And within the hour after that conversation, he had me on the phone with some volunteers who worked the case in Sacramento and who were looking into different persons of interest over time, and they also had thought the same thing, or at least we're investigating people that were persons of interest from
that area at the time. And that was a couple of years back. And so after that conversation, he also talked to Paul Holes and we set up a conversation. So I've been talking with him on and off for a couple of years as well. Typically he would call me when he was in the car on the way home, and we chat for however long it took him to
get there. Sometimes it'd be thirty or forty minutes. And then he also, of course, as he's stated on television over and over, was in the same line frame as I was, and Larry was, and many others probably were, that he was still in Sacramento and that he just would hop on the freeway there, Highway eighty or Highway ninety nine and go to either Stockton on ninety nine or he would head out to conquer It or wherever
he was going from Sacramento. So the relationship I had with Paul was we were trying to before they decided to go ahead and go to the genealogy site. We were talking about different other thoughts and theories about how there might be a connection from Sacramento to my uncle's murder and Charlene's murder. We were investigating different thoughts on that.
I talked to the FBI and I talked to Paul about different theories that we had because a lot of people thought, well, gee, there might be some connection to Citrus Heights and to my grandfather and Lyman Smith, who lived in Citrus Heights. They lived there for until nineteen sixty, but they had moved in nineteen sixty, so they weren't
there in the seventies at that time. So we were trying to figure out if there was some connection because my uncle was in Sacramento the week before he was murdered, and he had connections there and you know, development and different things that he was doing in business. So we were discussing a lot of different theories and a lot of different things over time before in the last two years.
And then one of the things, of course that was always a topic of conversation was the DNA connection to you know, some kind of family member and how to go about doing that. So, you know, I just was anxious, like most people were, to find out, well, why is it taking so long, Why don't we just do it, you know, because people would talk about that kind of thing back in two thousand and five they started to you try to figure out how to connect criminals and
through DNA. So anyway, it was a long wait.
Now you let's talk more about Charlene Smith and the former Charlene Doyle, and also your uncle who you called uncle Bob and the only other people referred to him as Uncle Bob, and I talked about how he was a prominent lawyer and on the verge of being appointed to judge. Brother's a very very good possibility. In your investigation, you also talked about speaking with Colleen Cason, and so tell us more about this possible connection with Citrus Heights.
Before you found out about Joseph James DeAngelo and his connection to Citrus Heights, you were already on that Citrus Heights trail. So, reviewing your book again, I'm amazed at some of the things that you have said there now in light of what has happened, do you think, as I alluded to in the in the show description, that there is a more sinister connection and reason for your uncle and your aunt being targeted in four? Like I say, four hundred miles away from Sacramento.
Well, it's one of two things. It was either a major coincidence that they were, you know, related to people from Sacramento, that my grandfather and grandmother lived off the Highway ninety nine freeway there, or it was something that maybe this guy saw Charlene and Lyman in Sacramento when they were there visiting. They would visit my grandparents in you know, it's close to downtown Sacramento, so you know,
like I said, or it's just a major coincidence. But we were we were looking into what the connections were and who who Lyman knew in Sacramento and things like that for a while, because you know, you never know what the one thing is it's going to connect it all, and the one thing that's gonna solve it. And obviously it was DNA. So I guess over time we'll find out you know, maybe we won't, maybe we'll never find out those details. I don't know what kind of details
this guy might give up. And I know that the investigators have their hands full trying to figure out who, who did what and where and when and how it all connected. It just amazed me over time that as I said in the book, it was like I was doing some kind of dance with this guy, because when I found out he was in Auburn, that was shocking to me because I was married in Auburn in nineteen eighty. The reason I got married in Auburn was because I
loved being up there. I used to go there for hikes, used to go off of Auburn, off the major road there. It was a mile from where this criminal was married. I was married in a church a mile away from where he was. He was a police officer in Auburn. While I was going there all the time after work to go hiking. I just it just blows my mind. I really thought that somewhere along the way that I probably crossed paths with the guy. And I always felt.
That what I thought interesting when you, I was just going to mention the Auburn because that's what was startling to me, is these again seeming coincidences. But the other one I wanted to put out to you was that you know, given what you already know, I'm interviewing Richard and re reading his book as well, I realized this he has certain he's taunting police to a certain degree. He certainly thinks he's much smarter than a smarter police.
He's employing things such as accents to throw off and all kinds of other techniques that he could have certainly learned quite a bit of information from being a police officer in the six years that he did to be able to throw off law enforcement. So he has some
issue with thinking he's much smarter than law enforcement. Would have kind of extended to your uncle Bob, who was on, like I say, the rd ship of being appointed a superior court judge, a prominent lawyer, a former district attorney, again, a super popular person in the school with a woman ten years his junior, so in a very attractive woman. But also I just thought, more so the idea of law enforcement, where are the other crimes?
There?
There seemed to be no one of any not I don't say prominence, but again law enforcement, taunting of police, a possible judge, and the connection it seems even more or less actually less coincidental.
I suppose he could have read something in the newspaper and decided that would be his target. Or he could very simply have just seen Charlene down by the ocean there where she was working and followed her home. Like I said, it's all speculation, but it'd be interesting. I would love for the guy to just stand up and say, yeah, I'm the guy. I did it, and here's what I can tell you. I mean, that would be amazing, But
I don't think that he's going to. From what it looks like at least BTK said yeah, I'm BTK, you got me. But this guy that wimpy performance in court the other day was really awful.
I didn't get to see it, so what was the pathetic display? I know, he came in a wheelchair, looking all right.
Yeah, looking like an old old man. Yeah, and according to what I've read, and I haven't had time, as you can imagine, in the last week, it's been insane and very busy, but I haven't had enough time to read enough about him yet. I actually wanted a moment to just sort of see how I felt before I try to get into the d tells of what this guy is or did or whatever. But he was in a wheelchair, handcuffed to the wheelchair, and acted like he was having a hard time understanding the judge. He acted,
I mean, he didn't speak very clearly. I thought maybe he was sort of whispering like that so that no one could hear his voice, because if we hear his voice, we will that'll be one more thing that we can say, Yeah, that's him. But he was just a couple of weeks before that. I guess they were surveilling him and he was doing all kinds of stuff that was, you know, more like a fifty year old according to Paul Holes, And all of a sudden, he's this old old man
in a wheelchair. So I don't know if they had him on some kind of sedative or what, but you know, I'm like, really, give me a break.
Well, it was interesting talking to Richard because he believes that he will talk, and I was surprised. Again, I can't see in his given the background, not to say predictability, but just given the non sympathetic story he could present. No matter what he said, I thought it would be I just thought it would be odd that he would talk.
Well, you know, here's what my initial reaction was. It's sort of like, well, maybe what he's doing is just trying to see kind of where everybody else sits, like what position he's in. And of course he's in a terrible position. But because he's the guy, and he you know, he can sit there and deny it all day long, but one hundred percent DNA match, it can't be. I can't fathom that it could be anything other than guilty. But you know, obviously in the court of law he
has to be. He's presumed innocent until he's proven guilty. But you know, this is a president setting kind of case when it comes to what's happened with DNA being part of the equation. So we'll see what happens in my book. I had said, why can't I see the reports? Why can't I, you know, know what's in the paper files, Because when we find this guy, it's not going to have anything much to do with it with what's in
the files and the autopsy reports and different things. It's going to be DNA and and that's all we're going to need to know. And you know, I just can't set.
Sorry, go ahead, no, no, go ahead. What Richard had said that that the the idea though that with the the and all genealogy sweep, and when they had come then narrowed it down, that they had still were using circumstantial evidence to be able to narrow things down because they had the fourth right.
Oh, sure, of course they had to do old fashioned police work on top of everything. They found out it was in Auburn, they found out he was fired, they found out, you know, all kinds of things about him and whether or not it's fit, and it's fit. So, yes, absolutely had to do the old fashioned police work to
go along with the DNA. But but my point was in my book was like all these reports that they've had and all this information they've had for forty years, and they haven't really until recently shared like pictures of what he took or the china, all this different stuff. They kept it pretty close to the vest. And so my point was just that you know, if you release this information, you get it out there, maybe we can
solve this case. And eventually, when we do find him, the DNA will match and that'll be a done deal. And that was really my point.
Well, I think, but I do think with Richard h Well, I was speaking with Richard. He had mentioned that that at one point he had given the he was given the records for safekeeping, and that didn't have the ability to store them correctly, so he gave them back That same Sheriff's department when he asked for those records again you know, the lead investigator, you know, like he's rights, they wouldn't have had him otherwise. Then he was refused
those same reports. So it seems politics really sets the you know, dictates basically what will happen. And so what I thought was fascinating and what you mentioned today is actually speaking with Paul Hole so many times and being taken seriously by the current law enforcement handling this case.
So that was encouraging to me. And I think as a result of the volunteer organizations that you mentioned and all the people out there on message boards and not that everything was good that was done on message boards and the speculation, but I think, police, this is a huge day. I mentioned this yesterday. This is a huge day for law enforcement, you know, a positive day for
law enforcement. So I think that. So I definitely think that the good things will come from this, and they will, I think again go to the public and ask for their help because.
They oh yeah, definitely, they.
Realized that you know, they have nothing to do, they have everything to gain from doing that.
Right. I have to say too, before I get sidetracked, the people on those message boards, there are some incredible sleuths out there. The detail and the investigations that they did, and they never wavered, and they just never quit, and they pushed and pushed and pushed, and I had people contacting me personally from all over the place. It was amazing some of the things that they were looking at. And I was just grateful and amazed. They were wonderful.
So I have to tell you that you had mentioned a volunteer organization is do they have a name that you would like to mention as well?
Well? The pro boards, which is the one of the sites, is that e AR I guess it's E R S O N S GSK. Anyway, it's easy to google it. I may have an extra s in there, but yeah, but that's that's where I would go, you know, just to check in and see what was going on. And like I said, there were a lot of amazing researchers and people. There's a person I worked with that's even in Canada, in your neck of the woods, and he
was an incredible researcher. Also he helped occasionally with some other projects too so and interestingly enough, his last name is Smith, So lots of Smiths out there.
Yeah, what did you think of the of DeAngelo's age.
I was wishing he was sixty two, and the reason is because I want him to be punished longer, and I don't want him to get away with acting like he's a wimpy old man. You know, that was within the range. Everybody said, well, he's probably between sixty two and seventy five. And I was really hopeful because he seemed so immature to me in his actions and how he sounded, and I was really hoping that he was younger. And I did say that I thought he graduated about
seventy three, and I was not correct about that. And I wish that he was younger so he could sit in a box a lot longer, because what he did to all the people involved, not only murdering people, but the victims that were actually attacked by this man, all the victims that were collateral damage out here, like myself who watched family members struggle with this, all the husband's wives, all the people that are out there that were affected personally,
and then also the community itself was absolutely in terror and everywhere he went, and you know, he deserves to be punished a very long time. I relished the idea that a police officer in Sacramento County, where he began his raps, I relished the idea that he's sitting in a jail cell and that officer can come in and flip the lights on and wake him up any time he wants to. And he has absolutely no power and absolutely no control. And I'm very happy about that.
What's particularly sad about your uncle and your aunt's murder was that it was attributed to a business associated, a business associated, pardon me, And also that there was an incredible amount of speculation, and some of it based on fact, but regardless, it almost seemed like a tone of not almost, it seemed like a tone of they had it coming to him for some reason, either shady business or extramarital
affairs or something of that. Still blaming, right, tell us about that particular effect on your family, not only is it murder. And then you say that your grandfather never really got to know the truth that it was attributed to the East Area rapist, original nightstalker, but you found out at some point.
But well, he knew. He died knowing that it was a serial killer. They had figured the DNA connection. He died in two thousand and one. But yeah, it was one of the major reasons I actually wrote this book was because it irritated me. It bothered me a lot that anytime that Lynman and Charlie Smith were mentioned in any publication, there was all the speculation about what type of people they were and whether a business associate or
bad deals or something had happened. Now, everybody in the world who works for themselves or tries a business business venture has the possibility of failing or having investments go wrong or whatever, and the speculation really irritated me, and I felt like I did to say, hey, these people are victims of a murderer, of a serial killer, and they were way more than what is being written about them, and all the sensationalism that was happening at the time
and beyond even it was repeated year after year, even till two thousand and I think twelve one of them I quoted in my book because it was just so inaccurate and so wrong, and they actually act like the victims brought this on to themselves by anything in their lives. I mean, it's just a crime in itself to blame any of the victims. There've been stories about other murder victims, and you know, this is not something that they did
to themselves in any way, shape or form. And so I had to try to let people know what human beings they were and what wonderful people they all were, and that they were you know, professional people they were in the medical profession, the lawyers, they were all kinds of wonderful people, psychiatrists. They were just people who were living or starting their lives and who deserved to be alive. And this guy was randomly attacking and took them away.
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dot com slash Mother's Day, one word FTD. We can arrange that. Let's talk more about your uncle Bob and his wife Charlene and the life and the people that they were, but also what this did to your family, What this did to your grandparents that you were especially close to. What did this do to your grandfather and your grandmother and your entire family, As you write in the book.
Well, I kind only speak for the family that was in Sacramento, but it was it's difficult to watch my grandfather be so heartbroken. He was very proud of both of his sons, and he especially was proud of the fact that Lyman Robert was doing so well in his career, etc. He was just heartbroken. He never spoke about it until
nineteen ninety. We were in the car when my grandmother was in the hospital and she was she'd had a stroke, and we had a couple of days where we were trying to figure out if she was going to live or die. And I drove him to the hospital back and forth, and I stayed with him in his home and on one of those trips back and forth, he started talking about Lyman, his son, and was telling me about when he was a little boy, he almost died
from appendicitis. He said that his wife kept telling him he needs to go to the hospital, needs to go to the hospital. And of course, my grandfather was a very stubborn guy, and he said, oh, no, no, he'll be fine, he'll be fine, and his wife, Wilma, said no, no, no, he really needs to go to hospital. And I guess
they kind of went around a while about that. And usually he told me that he would have just said no, no, but that day there was something in his wife's tone or expression that he actually took Miman to the hospital and if he hadn't, he would have died then. And I just listened to him and I was just amazed that all of a sudden he was just telling me this story. And that was the only time he really talked about how Limon almost died when he was a child.
So he did get to grow up, and he did get to have a career, he did get to have his children, and so, you know, but he did really work hard and really work a lot, and it was almost like he knew he had to, you know, fit it all in really fast because he was really pushing all the time. So anyway, my grandfather was very upset about it. Of course I didn't talk about it for a long time, but he did come to my wedding. I told that story in the book about how he was.
And we were in Auburn at the church and it was raining and the rain was pouring down on the church. And after I was married, we were walking out of the church and to the vestibule and my grandfather was in the vestibule with my grandmother and he was sobbing uncontrollably, just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed, and nobody could console him. And that was only seven or eight weeks after his son was murdered. So but they showed up at the wedding and did the best they could. And he had said, no,
we'll be there. My grandmother grandmother said oh no, no, no, we can't come, we can't come, and he said no, we'll be there because he knew it was important. So they came. And yeah, so it was a tough day.
But anyway, what was there I mean, obviously it was a negative reaction, but what was the reac action Once this case picked up steam and the business associate was accused. What how devastating again, increasingly devastating or added frustration or anger.
I imagine it probably didn't make much sense to my grandfather. I heard about it from my grandmother. She's the one who would mention once in a while something about the case. And we heard about his business associate. You know, it was very frustrating because it seemed like after they spent all that time trying to figure out if I don't want to say his name, because he had enough bad publicity over time. I'm sure he is a really nice guy.
The good thing that happened for him after this was after they released him from jail after having him in jail for a year and dismissing the charges that they
didn't have evidence enough evidence to go to trial. But you know, and it was financially ruining for him and his family, but his wife stood by his side, and so so I know my grandfather was just like very frustrated by it because you want to find who did this, and they went off the wrong direction and Ventura County and I know that they've investigated it over time, but unfortunately at the time it appears that the case went cold after after those two years of investigating the wrong person.
So I mean, that's what they do. They have to investigate, they have to go with what leads. Unfortunately, there was a pastor that that had started talking about how this guy had confessed and they had they spent the year trying to figure out if he was a reliable witness, and he wasn't. He always tried to insert himself into cases before. So unfortunately it went cold in Ventura County
as far as we could tell. And I know when I called Ventura County in two thousand and sixteen at the beginning of the year.
They.
What they did was they said that they did not have money or they did not have a cold case unit, and that they were investigating any leads that would come in. But they, you know, really didn't have any cold case unit. So it seemed pretty cold to me even in twenty sixteen until the FBI announced they were re entering the case, and that was in June of twenty sixteen.
In retrospect, now that I know this still you haven't wrapped yourself around all the new information. But I asked this of Richard Shell because I was curious. What do you think about eyewitness accounts and composite drawings and their effect on an investigation, positive or negative.
Well, you know, this was the seventies and that was pretty much what they had to go with the composites. Amazingly enough, a lot of them look sort of like him. So some of the witnesses who saw a strange guy in the neighborhood or you know, talk to investigators after the attacks did have an interesting perspective on it. And again, it was the seventies, there wasn't much. You know, they still have to work from eyewitness accounts and sometimes they're
right and sometimes they aren't. But interestingly enough, the pictures of the by Sailua Ransacker looked like him, and I imagine that was from mc gowan's description. The detective who was a flashlight got shot and his hand I guess was hurt.
But yeah, it's interesting too. Richard Shelby chronicles the Vasilia Ransacker, and of course now there's pretty well a positive connection with the Visilia Ransacker. Of course, Well, they can see a lot of this perpetrator's early behavior and then evolution into a serial killer, can't they, right, Well, he.
Was certainly an angry person. I heard something yesterday and I didn't catch the whole thing on the news, but Paul Holmes was talking about how after they had caught him shoplifting in Auburn and he was a cop at the time, that he threatened the chief and he actually was outside, and I wish I had seen the whole description, but he was outside the chief's house and his daughter, the chief's daughter was like, there's a man out there
kind of thing. And so that probably didn't help him stay on the forest, that's for sure, because he was threatening the chief. And that was just something I heard, Like I said, very briefly. I wish I had more details on it, and I will find them. But for him to be outside the chief's house when he's being you know, investigated for shop lifting and he's about to lose his career in law enforcement, there's something wrong with the guy, you know. I mean, somebody should have known that.
I mean, even if he was taking a hammer and dog repellent from the store and they could write it off in their minds by saying, well, yeah, he probably could use that on the job. He could have you know, used it for dogs. When he's a police officer whatever. But on the other hand, he was threatening the chief and he was let go from this position. So I'm
just surprised. I guess in a way that somehow the dots were not connected along the way, you know, when it came to his behavior at the time, and that was nineteen seventy nine.
Yeah, and the murders were in nineteen eighty. So again, well they were.
In seventy nine. Also, they were in seventy nine, and they were also in seventy eight if you look at the maggiorium, so sure you.
Know nobody was referring to your your aunt uncle specifically, right, yeah, again law enforcement again, you know, again this is that representation of everything that you know ruined his life. It seemed like he not that I interpret it, but it seemed like he didn't think it was such a big deal. Obviously, again, this his arrogance and then you know, to be threatening a police chief or think that you're not going to get repercussions. It seems from when I had read it,
he didn't. He didn't think to be too phased about what he had done.
So yeah, I don't know. I mean, there, you know, for him to be that angry and that acting out a lot. Apparently. Yeah, it's amazing somebody didn't say, hey, there's something wrong with that guy, you know, especially in Cuitrus Heights when he was living next door to people and such. But I guess he was probably inconsistently maybe an okay guy and then other time maybe not. So I have to read more about him.
What do you think about when you talk geographically? You know, Richard Shelby talked about being able to at one point almost pinning down what neighborhood he would strike in. Next you looked at this geographically in terms of the attacks, What do you think now since there's been this arrest and he surprises to what you had thought.
Well, you know, you can't be right about everything when you're speculating, right, and I was incorrect about where he was from. But as far as like what part of Sacramento he was in, I guess probably I really never thought that we would still find him sitting in the middle of the attack area. But again too, when you look at the geographical area of Sacramento, I mean there's a lot of waterways, there's a lot of the American River,
the Sacramento River, for the creeks and waterways. There's a lot of that in Sacramento, So it wasn't a far stretch for me to think that he could find his way through the entire town in the creeks, and so I really concentrated on that a lot and tried. But then I realized too that that was all over Sacramento. When I found out that he was in Citrus Heights, it was sort of like, yeah, okay, I get that. You know, it was not a surprise. It really wasn't, not at all just arrogant.
Do you think you wrote in a book that you thought there might be some possible connection with Lake Tahoe and the cabin there? Can you tell us about that?
Well? I mean, like Tahoe is somewhere that people go from Sacramento and San Francisco, La. They drive up and they you know, come hang out. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd done that, especially since he was from the Auburn area. What's interesting to me about where They showed pictures of where he grew up or where he was, and it's you know, a lot of I mean, it's
a lot of outdoor area. It's real you know, rural, so, but you know, he probably did come up here on occasion, so did my whole family, so did a lot of people in Sacramento. So it's hard to say if there was any kind of connection that way.
In your investigation. When you look at the murders of your aunt and uncle, were they significantly or in any real Yeah, and in any significant way different than the other murders once he began murdering, was there any difference.
Yeah, We've talked about that before, and most people who know the case know that in nineteen seventy nine, he the murders of Offerman and Manning, doctors Ferman and Manning. They didn't go I think the way he planned exactly he ended up shooting them. But in my uncle and Charlene's murder, they i think went pretty much the way he had planned it. But he also left them not covered when he bludgeoned them, and seemed to learn from that,
because it's I'm sure it was not. It was rather messy, but they the next murders, he did cover the couple, and so he also took his bindings with him after the Smith murder, So he learned something from all the publicity and all the articles about what he had done and changed some of what he did on the next couple.
So he must have been pretty gratified or enjoyed not being detected for those murders for your uncle.
And yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, Well, I mean being a you know, a lot of people thought that he was ex military, and he was. He was an ex cop. He was actually committing these crimes, these attacks in Sacramento while he was a police officer, and a lot of people say, x coup. Well he was actually an active police officer when he was committing the rapes in Sacramento and other places in nineteen seventy nine, seventy six through seventy nine. He was an Auburn.
So yeah, that's chilling. And and all of the information valuable information is he learned as a law enforcement personnel, right.
Yeah, And so when he was doing the running around in southern California, he was he was not only learning, but he was doing the same kind of what did Paul Hols had a name for it yesterday, where he was just setting it up so that people in different jurisdictions, which back in the day they didn't speak to each other as much as they do now, and they didn't have the type of technology they have now, and all that he knew that that there was a better chance he would get away with it if he moved from
place to place and he tried to change something of his m O. And so he thought it was really smart. And I sure wish they'd caught him sooner because he's not smart.
Well, he wasn't smart enough, no.
Smart enough back in the day when they were investigating things. It's not the same thing as it is today today. You couldn't get away with what he got away with. Ted Bundy couldn't have you know, their cell phones taking pictures of him.
But it is nice that the advances in d A technology, not that they have been rapid, but there have been incredible advances in DNA technology since its announcement in the early eighties. This killer would not know of that, so he of course was very particular, and so he knew of other technologies techniques that the police had for collecting evidence. He had no idea what DNA would would would achieve what it would have become. Right when did you find out?
What?
We spoke about this before, and but I've spoken to other authors as well, because this is a fairly new development, this being able to link up families through DNA, the familial DNA. When did you find out the FBI was employing this.
Well, you know, it had been talked about by various people in law enforcement over time. I had just I was just surprised that it took him a while to be able to I think there was a lot of privacy issues that they were still considering trying to figure out. But it's definitely been on the list of things to do. What I wrote in my book back in I think it was two thousand and five. Tony Fdacas, he's a
PhD who developed the latest technique called biogeographic testing. His technique was to take one tenth of one percent of a person's DNA to determine the physical characteristic. So I was wondering when they were going to show us a picture of the DNA phenotyping to show us what he looked like. And this is back in two thousand and five, and it was supposed to be ninety two percent accurate at that time, two thousand and five, to show us
what the guy would look like. And I couldn't figure out why we weren't getting that picture, I thought, well, maybe they're not showing it to us because they're afraid they're going to scare them off. So yeah, so I know that they've known for a long time more about what he looked like. So, but I do have some questions. I have to tell you about some of the evidence that seemed to be talked about a lot, and it was talked about a lot. The papers that he dropped
in Danville, I believe. And the thing that I wanted to know, and I mentioned it not too long ago, was did they ever test it for epithelial cells? Do they know for a fact that it really was him who dropped it? Maybe he did drop it, maybe did it on purpose to try to get him to talk to themselves about the drawing that he did, and also the papers he wrote about being mad and so on, and so I want to know do they know for a fact? And I really want to know whether they
were even his papers, That's one thing. And I have a few questions. You can imagine. We had some people ask me. Let's see, what did they say? Did he stop killing when he became a father? I think so. I think that he took a break. He had three daughters, one of them interesting and was born in eighty one, and I think his wife was pregnant at the time he was did a murder, and then also in eighty six the same thing, his wife was pregnant. So I think that he did stop because he had a family.
Somebody else asked me, let's see, and they asked me if I thought he'll talk. I think eventually he might talk. I think he's trying to assess kind of where he sits at the moment before he opens his mouth. Yeah, everybody's got lot very interesting.
Yeah, absolutely, I can imagine he would have incredible amount and I don't think it would end any anytime soon. It wouldn't be satisfied by just a few answers. What we got a mentioned before we go is also that Paul Holes again Richard Shelby gave him a lot of credit. But you sent me an article as well talking about Paul Holes explaining what really happened is that they had
the DNA, but a sweep of databases. Like you say, he didn't have a record even despite this altercation when he was a police officer, he didn't have a record as a result. So Paul Holes had an idea. He had an idea derived from somebody else's idea, and then he applied that idea to use a sweep of just
general genetic sites, so like ancestry dot com. And that's not the one they used, apparently they used, so it's another one regardless, I have it down here somewhere, but just a general sweep, and then found the great great grandparents and went back.
Several It was actually his great great great grandparents that went to eighteen hundred exactly.
Yeah, And so then divided it up into sort of family trees and then be able to eliminate and investigate through that. And that's what took. It seems like a fair amount of time to be able to do that.
Well, what I found interesting was that they said in their public announcement that this guy was not on their
radar until six days prior to his arrest. That's right, six days, yeah, and so I was thinking, hmm, But anyway, so I'm yeah, just so you know too, I have to say that Larry Crompton is the person who talked to Paul Hole's way back and they discussed trying to match the DNA, trying to get samples to the right people to match the DNA and they're the ones who actually put it all together when it came to matching
the Easteria rapist with the original Nightstalker. And so you know, of course Larry was retired, but he was the one who said, hey, why don't you do this? And so it was that and working with Paul Hols, Larry's never stopped. And I need to make sure that everyone understands how much this man put into this case over time. He has never stopped. And I know that Richard Shelby has also been very vocal, and Carol Daily and a lot of the people that are in Sacramento and a lot
of the people that are in other jurisdictions. I never spoke to them, so I don't know their names, but I've seen them on television. But they've all worked so hard and never stopped. So yeah, it took. It took It took a community, and it took a community not only of the people, but of law enforcement as well.
So yeah, I congratulated Detective Shelby because it is a group effort of law enforcement and other people, but you know, a law enforcement And then we also just briefly spoke it because he said he didn't want to make it sound like sour grapes, but I was angered and as I'm sure some other people were too when credit is not given. And Larry Crompton was on the program, the first person that talked about East Ary rapist and his book Sudden Terror, which is just essential, along with Richard
Shelby's book Hunting a Psychopath Essential. And then we have you know, a tabloid television program announcing very very early on after the rest that Barbara McNamara's book Into the Dark in the Dark of the Night, pardon me, Michelle McNamara, and it was receiving receiving credit for naming TMZ said that she named the suspect, but then it turned into all of the articles just again using sort of the
headline to mention how important the book was. And without the book, the investigation never would have done what it did.
None of us believe that, yeah, none of us believed that it was attributed to that book, but and that's what they've said. Police law enforcement has said that, no, there was nothing in that book that contributed to what happened with the DNA. I mean, that was going to happen regardless and so that's really what the record should state. But the fact is that it did take it an entire community, and and Michelle McNamara did call attention to the case, there's no doubt, and so she deserves credit
for that. And it's too bad that she's not here to see it, because I know she put her heart and soul into it as well as many of us did. And you know, that's why I was compelled to write my book and and try to get to the Sacramento audience and say who did you know?
You know?
Did you know this guy? You know? It was just something I had to do. And I know that she felt she had to do what she did as well. So and there are they're victims, Jane Carson Sandler who wrote a book about what happened to her, and there are other people out there who, you know, really did twenty four to seven live and breed this case and try to figure out who this guy was. So it was an absolute concerted effort. You could feel the energy moving towards this resolve. And so I'm very glad that
that happened. And I just wish he was younger and he could be punished longer.
Well, I think that he just might be fit enough. And then I think maybe the state might just be helping him have his health maintained during this period so that he can, as you say, and as you wish, to sort of live out his life behind bars after escaping justice for so many years.
I also feel sorry for his family, but there's nothing that anyone can do.
So certainly people will think about, oh, my god, what was running through his daughter's minds, his ex wife's mind, his granddaughter's mind that lived with him in the home, friends and acquaintances. I'm sure it will be shocked, surprised, definitely, No matter what temperament he would have, they would still be certainly surprised at this.
Then he could go to that bar, that he could be this evil.
Yeah, absolutely yeah. And again, in terms of sympathy, as I said, I can't see him talking. I can't see how he can, you know, have any sympathy. Anyone can have any sympathy towards him and his story, and Richard Shelby and Larry Prompt have all done a good job. I don't think anybody could ever have any sympathy for this killer, given the circumstances and all the facts of this case. There's no way, so I can't see what he would again from opening his mouth.
Yeah, well, I think that he may eventually talk because I think that he's arrogant enough to really want to take credit for what he did and maybe talk about it because he knows that people will write the details, and they will, and it'd be interesting for you and I to talk again down about this once this story unfolds some more, because it will and there will be more details, I'm sure.
So yeah, I'd like I invited Larry Crompton to come on and talk about his book and about this case, but I'm sure he's busy or has better things to do, but it would be nice to have you both on and talk about this case at another point, because again, go ahead.
I was just going to say I'm going to be seeing him very soon. I'd planned a trip to go visit him actually, and I'm still going to go, so I'll be seeing him in person here shortly. But he I know, he's extremely busy. He's been interviewed like crazy, and he's been in the Orgonian type papers and places like that. So anyway, so yeah, you'll get up, you'll catch up with him sooner or later.
Yeah, certainly, certainly, what's next for you? I alluded that again, I said that you were this is still an ongoing investigation. Will there be another book? What's your next move regarding this case?
Well, you know what was ironic is that I had just I've been talking to another author. His name's Kevin Sullivan, and he writes books about Ted Bundy, and I said, you know, I'm really looking for a case that I can write about that's been solved. And this was probably two or three weeks ago I said that. And now this has been solved basically, and so we'll see how it plays out. But certainly there's a few chapters to add. There's there's no doubt about that. And people have been
asking me, you're going to write about it. You're going to write about it? Probably I can't fathom not finishing the story.
But we shall see, absolutely, and I'm sure there's so much more to learn. I mean, even without a confession that they're the same army of people that were interested in all of the facts surrounding this case. And now with everybody that's Johnny cum lately come on board, it's amazing to hear true crime fans that you know, weren't up to speed on this case. Now try to digest all the material that's coming out because it's such a
fascinating case. If people think the Zodiac and the Zodiac movie in the Zodiac books were incredible, I think that the publishing business in general, not just true crime, I mean television, documentaries, you name it. This is going to be the story that is going to be the biggest story of anybody's heard. It has all those elements. It was amazing that it didn't have the attention that you and I and a lot of people thought it deserved. But certainly it's going to achieve that now.
I think, yeah, I would think so. I think everybody's been hearing about it and talking about it. It's it's just I can't and you're right, I couldn't fathom that that it wasn't solved and that it was just sort of sitting there by the wayside for a long long time.
It seemed. It seems that way when you're part of a family of people who are waiting for it to be solved, and you want it to be solved yesterday, and so yeah, it was finally getting some attention I found it interesting that all the shows had finally come out and been said and done, all the books were out there, and then it gets solved. So you know, it's been interesting to watch and to watch it up close.
And I'm glad that I did contact the people I contacted and did start talking about this, because it was the fear in the back dark resources of my mind that I needed to get rid of, and the way to do that was to talk about this because it was too terrifying. I still am afraid sometimes, but it's after this happened. So you know, I went outside in my yard and stood with my bare feet on the grass and I just tried to take it all in. So he's not there, He's not going to be outside
my window. He's not there. And I, for the first time actually did my dishes without worrying about turning the light off quickly at night. So anyway, I'm glad that it's done.
Yeah, yeah, And it's glad. It's nice to be able to use your own name. And again, this fear that you had should I come out again is based on something that happened a long, long, long time ago, and we talked about that earlier. Again, I read your book, reread your book, and we talk about the man in the puffy jacket at the meeting where the Italian man rants and raves about how it's done in his own country.
And then so I just hand imagine. And that's why we will have to do another follow up show just to all the things that you examined, all of the little leads I'd like to hear as you find out more information and you further investigate just some more interesting and fascinating subjects surrounding this case.
Yeah.
Yeah, I want to thank you very very much An actually and Penn but Laurie for coming on and talking about the East Area rapist, original night Stalker, Golden State Killer, and also we just wanted to talk about your book Murder on His Mind serial killer member family member speaks out and Pen thank you very much for this interview and hope to speak to you again soon.
Yes, and thank you Dan very much. I appreciated your time.
Is there a website for people might want to reach out to you? Tell us a little bit about just contact information or where they might look at your work?
Well, I have I have a Twitter account and Pen thirteen I have you can contact me at Andpen thirteen at gmail dot com. I have a WordPress account. It's and Pen dot WordPress. I believe it is sort of like a phone number, you don't call it yourself. So there's a lot of different things I've blogged about on there regarding this case, and it's all under and Pen
and you can always google that too. I've had a lot of interest all over the world in the last well it's been ongoing, but in particular, you know, all kinds of different countries, Malaysia, China, Australia, you name it. It's been interesting to see how many people are hearing about this case.
So yes, absolutely, congratulations to you and I'm glad to see that this case was solved. It really was the purpose of your book and the purpose of your mission here. Thank you very much. Pen. Otherwise, Laurie, have a great evening, good.
Night, Thank you you two. Bye bye bye