DOOMSDAY CULTS-Alan R. Warren

reborn on a better planet called Sirius. Charles Manson convinced his followers to kill in an attempt to incite an apocalyptic race war. These are a few of the doomsday cults examined in this book by best selling author Alan R. Warren. Its focus is on cults whose destructive behavior was due in large part to their apocalyptic beliefs or doomsday movements. It includes details surrounding the massacres and the look into how their members became so brainwashed they committed unimaginable crimes

at the command of their leader. Usually, when we hear about these cults and their massacres, we ask ourselves how it possibly happened. We could also ask ourselves, what then, is the difference between a cult and a religion. We once had a small group of people who unquestionably followed a person who believed that he was a son of God. Two thousand years later, that following is one of the most recognized religions in the world. This book in no

way criticized believing in God. Rather, it examines how a social movement grows into a full religion and when it does not, and what makes the conventional faiths such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism when Hinduism stand above groups such as the Branch Davidians or Children of God. The book that we are featuring this evening is Doomsday Cults The Devil's Hostage with my special guest journalist and author and host of House of Mystery, Alan R. Warren, thank you very

much for agreeing in this interview. Welcome back, Alan R. Warren.

future world after the apocalypse which is coming. And they know about the end of the world, and so they are going to lead them and take them into the new into either a new planet or into the new

world after the battle or war happens. And so each one of these tends to have that sort of angle to it, that sort of reasoning and right from Jim Jones, to Charles Manson, David Koresh, they all had that, So you know, they have slight tweaks on what they say, whether the son of God or they're appointed they're a prophet, or whatever the case, and whether we have to catch a spaceship to the new world and at the new level the new place that we're going, or whether we're

just going to be the ones that rebuild the world after the end times. So they all sort of have that direction, and they all tend to have the similarity of someone that's really in charge, someone that they bow to, so to speak. And that's for different reasons, but in general it's because they're dealing with the Holy Person.

So when you mentioned and we mentioned in the introduction about movements, you also write that a Roman Empire initially considered Judaism as a cult, and Jesus was just one of at least a dozen religious messiahs during that socially turbulent time. You go on to write about movements itself. This is fascinating. Tell us about these movements and their connection to religious religions themselves.

sort of a truth. I think that trying to separate religious movements from cults is really tough because what exactly is the difference, And a lot of that in that first chapter that you talk about is when you look at Jesus Christ and you look at his following, he was one of twelve groups that we knew about that had the same similar sort of process within the group and the same sort of belief And yeah, they were

all considered kind of cults by the Romans. And if you were to take some of those and put them now, which there are quite a few now groups that have the same similar ways about them, how would we look at them now? How would we look at Jesus now?

If a person was to come forward, like you look at David Koresh who said they are the appointed one and they decide what's going to happen and who's going to do what with who and where, and they make all of these decisions and they can heal people, even like Jim Jones was able to cure cancer or whatever the case. So now we look at them as cults. Back then they were considered by common people. Someone's you know,

a regular power, a place to go. So it's it's it's really the context of where the cult is.

sheer number of religious movements is fascinating. Then you write about in the sixteen hundreds, you write that American colonies in the US had a reputation sort of a safe hazen for religious radicals. And so the section between Albany and Buffalo, New York you write the birthplace of Seven day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, Millerism, Universal Friends, Mormonism, Spiritualism, and

an American Shakers, among others. What is it about society that there were so many movements and really no, it looks like no general consensus about religion, just only more religious groups and sects branching off from those and again from those religious movements. What is the difference between a cult when they say a classification that will be called a cult or religious movement, what is the difference in the classification.

or you know division of that. There's so many Christian divisions now and Catholic and even Muslim to an extent, and so they sort of have these offshoots when that was going on, people that actually had totally different ideas of the religion, such as the SDA Seven Days and stuff. Why America was considered a good place to go is it was considered the place to go to get away

from the mainstream religions. So it was kind of you know, the Burning District there you mentioned that was really popular amongst some of these smaller and more considered radical divisions, and so that's where it all started. So Seven Day events in general, and a lot of the other groups you mentioned that came to the Burning District in the US tended to be more end times. They tended to have more of the faith that we were living at the end of the world. So that was the biggest

difference between that and the mainstream religions. And what exactly is the difference between them. It's usually about the power sect. When a certain group is in control, they have a lot of funds, they have a lot of money, they have a lot of support, and they get involved in the governments. And so in Europe the Catholics were really

the main church, the most powerful. In the United States, you could come and start your group, even like the Mormons, and you could create your own base out of people that all rejected that religion, the original religion in Europe. And how do you tell the difference? It's really who can lasts? You know the time. If you can stand the test of time, then you've become more of a religion. And the other aspect is usually the person or the

person that runs that division. Even when they pass, people continue on with what they were taught by that person, and you start to become more of a religion than just a cult.

though he was killed. So they really so they you know, there is this point and I know that in the last part of the book we talked about brainwashing and a lot of the you know, breaking points and stuff, and when you come when you look at how they can continue on, there has to be a part. There's a lot of psychologists suggest that it's just people don't want to admit their wrong and there's there's certain terms they use that kind of go to that. But I

think there's more to it. There's something deeper than that in a person that would would continue on with that sort of belief even though it's you know, it didn't happen. So we start have to we have to identify the personality the people that are behind that and the ones that follow these groups, and you have to start finding out more about the characteristics of the people that get into cults and why that they get involved. And again it's really tough. You know, look how devout people are

to mainstream religions. Catholic Christian and they they they get so involved that everything they do and they their lifestyle starts to surround that. That's all there is. So every day it's about the church and about their God and about living to fulfill that. So their physical life becomes secondary.

And so I don't know if it's if it's about habit, if it's about just you know, where that drops off to where they never ever change, doesn't matter who's in the church and what the church is doing itself.

this leader is an all supreme being. So in terms of that, let's talk about Jim Jones and the People's Temple and the Disciples of Christ nineteen seventy eight, because it's very interesting how Jim Jones to all people that he encountered, and we will talk about some of the the authorities and officials that he charmed with his ideas about this utopia, first in America and then later when they relocated in Jonestown, especially let's talk about Jim Jones

and some of the things that he said and used to convince people to join him in the People's Temple.

just out there. He was the personality. And when he started his own church, what he did was he started by taking all of the minority groups that were being a press at the time, you know, in the sixties and the seventies when you had the KKK was at their one of their strongest points at that time, and was very very out there you might say, they weren't hidden, and so there was so much of this going on.

So he would he would open his doors he wanted he welcomed people of color and gay and just everybody into the church. And he was one of the first to do that because typically the church was was was frowning upon, you know, any sort of difference, like either you fit in and became how what they wanted, or you were not part of them. So he was very much into all of this, you know, you know hippies. It didn't matter what you what kind of a person

in that way you were, he wanted you. He wanted all of that in there, and you felt very welcomed and loving. He was also the first family where met him and his wife adopted a black child as as their own, and that coused a lot of turmoil. You would not believe how much people didn't want to associate with you, or they cut you out, or they didn't they didn't want to be part of your life because of that. That that that made you less of a family.

And so so he he he caught onto that and he really absorbed that and all of the people that he could. He was very welcoming and opening and people loved that and they felt they were part of a real religious movement that cared about them, so they wanted to be there. And so this this just grew and grew and grew, and.

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relocated to this compound that he was conducting. But also you say, when you talk about the negative reaction that Jones and his family had by adopting that black child in his mind, and I don't know if he was paranoid or or at least I would have been maybe paranoid about this as well. That he thought the CIA was watching him and tapping his phones and that his food was being poisoned. So I think that certainly he was deluded, but that the CIA could have been watching

him at that time because of his activities. Isn't that out isn't that out there if they're watching John Lennon and his activities, so that the same time, Sorry, go ahead.

the way people ostracized him, he became paranoid. He started hiring bodyguards, he started sort of separating himself and protecting himself because he did think that someone would try to kill him. This is also the time that Bobby Kennedy was killed, you know, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. So this was not a wing that idea to think, oh my god, they're going to try and kill me. And

like you mentioned John Lennon, those were people. Now we look back at them and see them as kind of they were good people and there were people trying to get rights and doing you know, John Lennon and all this stuff and singing about love. But back then they were they thought these guys are these guys are really destructive. We got to protect ourself and protect our children from these guys. So he was kind of on that threshold in his mind. He put himself up there with people

like Martin Luther King. So yeah, I could see why he would be scared.

the thing. The other he had a couple people, and then you write about the Myrtles where they were convinced that the Jones had cured their son of a heart condition telepathically, and yet at the same time they saw a difference when they had joined this group, the discipline was getting harsher. He had patted their sixteen year old daughter in front of six hundred people, so they saw a behavior that they hadn't seen before that was far less charismatic as time went on.

he was popular. So, yeah, they were a typical family that sought out to join someone like Jim Jones, and the People's Temple not only accepted everybody, but like you said, he started doing all these healings in cancer, healing heart conditions, and so they would they would come and bring their bring their family, bring their kids, and give up everything.

See that was the trick, you know, they they join someone like Jim Jones, they give up their their finances, their house, car, everything they had went into the two people's temple. So they were they were there, and they became sort of trapped within. Uh, they had no means to get out. And when you were living amongst a group, that's when you were ordered and disciplined by the group himself.

So yeah, he would if you know, in that particular case, he thought their their daughter had kissed another girl and was perhaps a lesbian, so he he actually, yeah, spanked her. And there's it became very strict within the community. You know. He still had a communist sort of point of view that you know, the commune lives together and we do

everything together and everything goes into one. And with that came the discipline because if you stepped out of line, you were going to be taught not to and so yeah, it was very strict, and so people gotten into it, but they felt trapped once they got in.

They eventually left in nineteen seventy four, and of course they became vocal opponents of Jones, which wasn't good, and they eventually opened what you write the Human Freedom Center to help cult defectors and People's Temple survivors. However, in February nineteen eighty, the Myrtles and their daughter were found murdered in their home and no one was ever arrested.

it's question mark. But again that was the start of the tension that family and when they left and started a group against Jim Jones and the People's Temple it really made Jim Jones paranoid and it really put him on edge. And there was also articles that started coming out, you know, New West Magazine and even the Rolling Stone. There was a few different articles that were quite negative and they talked to people that were in that group, people that had left and escaped it, so to speak.

And so it was pretty damning. And so that was the time when Jim Jones wasn't sure what he was going to do. He at first he started doing the suicide a little you know, I guess drills, you would call them, right, he would, you know, he would give them all wine and then tell them all you've drank poison and you're going to die, and just see the reactions. And he wasn't really happy with the reactions, and that was sort of what led him to search out a

different country to take his followers too. So that was kind of the beginning of the end. Really.

and singing and people seemingly happy. But eventually reporters find some people that have something to say negative and Jim Jones is put on the spot in front of reporters about some people wanted to leave, and he said, well, you know, that's fine, that's okay, and then one of the followers took things into his own hands and the slaughter ensued. It's interesting how especially, I think, for people that just that's one of the very first cases of

cults and the master that it ensues. And it's interesting to think how many people thought that this was a fantastic idea, this was a great guy, and even this Congressman Leo Ryan seemed to not know that they were going into something that they may never ever return from. It's fascinating, really.

child back. And then they found out that there was no extradition treaty with Guyana, so they couldn't get their kids back. They started getting worried, and then the rumors started coming out, and so that's why Congressman Leo went and so when he was there, at first everything was

presented in a great way. They thought, well, you know, this is great, and then they started getting The first thing was the note that they received saying that there was some people that wanted to leave, and that kind of started it. And between Jim Jones being put on the spot like with the media as well as doing he was doing heavy, heavy drugs at the time he was in to look at the old films. He was

just stoned out of his mind. And so you know, when Congressman was leaving and taking a lot of the members, he couldn't have that. So that was the beginning of

let's kill everyone. We're all going to do a revolutionary suicide, sent his money to Russia and things like that, and that was really Yeah, that was the first huge impact where you have like nine hundred followers that ended up dead, nine hundred and twelve, I believe, And it was a shock to the world, and I think it was a shock to a lot of people that one man can have so much influence and power over a thousand people that they're all going to end up dead, and that

I think that shocked at the time, definitely, you know, in nineteen seventy eight, it shocked the world, and I was surprised. And why I added this one because there's a lot of attention about Jim Jones, but he has the perfect you know, he did it. He did it the perfect way of getting the followers and doing all the things like he was really really good at what

he did. Why I put him in was because I couldn't believe how many people of the new generation have no idea who Jim Jones was, had no idea about the religious movement idea, and how people would follow and fall into this trap and ended up dead like this in a mass proportion, And there are so many people that had no clue of it. And it really surprised me of how many times when I was out talking and people were like, no, who is Jim Jones. I was like, wow, one as I know, I'm getting old.

But the other thing was, yeah, this was huge. But we've got to realize that this was seventy eight. You know, in that area, a lot of these people that were born in the nineties or even in the two thousands here they weren't even alive and they have no clue.

subway attack and the March twentieth, nineteen ninety five. Tell us a little bit about this attack and Shoko Asahara.

United States and Japan. And he had all of these ideas, and so for some reason he was going to lead his group into you know, it's still always sort of you know, you believe there's going to be an end of the world, you know, a race, war or some sort of armageddon, but you've got to go and either start it or intimidate it, or do something to create an event. And you being you know, some prophet or some relation to God and so and your survivors or your followers believe that, so you go in to do

these things, you know. So that's kind of the Tokyo Russia. Our subway thing was to go in and and kill a lot of people. And so, you know, this was not the first time that they attacked with some sort of nerve gas or agent. And so this was when five of them, the members jumped on and became militant.

So they decided that they were going to put their double bag and full of nerve gas was saren saren gas, which was something that they were using then and before they got off the train, they would stick it with their umbrella and it would release the gas. And so they did that just after eight in the morning. And so that's how it happened. And of course it didn't

it didn't get the effect that they wanted. The leader wanted a mass killing, and I believe it only killed twelve, but there was thousands that were hospitalized and thousands a lot of people that were hurt from this, and so it wasn't but it wasn't what he planned. And this wasn't the first one. Like I said, he had done a few others, or attempted a few others, and it was it was just it was a crazy situation. And it all started with him giving yoga classes, you know,

and meditation, and it all grew out of that. He with that, he started giving them his truths or his beliefs, you know.

a nuclear armageddon. They would have packed Japan. Of course he saw kinds of conspiracies, but he also saw all kinds of conspiracies at the same time that it must have been very stressful because it was an anti cult lawyer who had had success prosecuting the Moonies, the Unification Church, and so this Sakamoto lawyer attorney was starting class action lawsuits. So this, it always seems to with the Jones case

as well. His agitation and stress and stress levels by virtue of people complaining and people asking questions, people defecting creates a drug use in Jones's case, but in this particular case it ends up in far more erratic behavior and again with the clock ticking, they do things that are are going to ask the group to do something

with suicide. When you talk about these groups and apocalyptic, let's talk about this subway attack and if these people had any kind of suicide pact in terms of and what was their description of their apocalyptic future.

of the group. So with these killings it was or attacks, it was meant to create something else, it was meant to start something or you know, like even with Charles Manson again, you you are going to start something or get it going, and you're a God's army, so you're going you're part of the fixer up crew. You're part of the crew that's going to come and start the world over or guide the survivors into the new world or new future. So it's a combination on whether they're

going to commit suicide or not. And when they went after Sakamoto, it was because he, uh, one of the things was the leader of the am was was supposed to have you know, superpowers and stuff. He could he could float in the air, and they had his blood right and they said it was it was powerful to have his blood, and so they had to kill him.

So that because he was not only the lawsuit, but he was actually going to really proved that this guy had no power and he couldn't he couldn't you know he couldn't face that in the public.

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Get Honey for free at join Honey dot com slash murder. That's join Honey dot com slash murder now. Al And I asked you about the idea of a suicide pact involved in any of these apocalyptic ideas and prophecies and sermons that they gave to their followers, and what leads me to the talking about the Order of the Solar Temple and Joseph de Mambro and Luke Juri nineteen eighty four, let's talk about the Solar Temple and the difference the

ideas behind the Solar Temple. What they thought they were and why tell us a little bit about these two people that formed this incredibly deadly Order of the Solar Temple.

that because of who they were. So they took some of the original temple traditions and they mixed in some of the supremacy and the ideas of that and that kind of you kind of really give a real screwy sort of idea. So they they kind of took what they wanted from from both and led their followers that way. You know, the you know, the foundation of the Golden Way was their their how they started to to create their their thoughts. So they had groups all over the place.

They had them in Switzerland, they had it in Italy, UK Canada and Australia.

it's the same tradition. You give up all your house, your money, car, anything if you own, and you become part of the group and you get initiated in some sort of one of these rituals, and that was it. So the game was on. The unfortunate thing was this was more of a suicide group, and in their adition or their idea was you had to die by fire. So when they had rituals to kill themselves, they would all get into a certain group in that and they

would burn themselves to death. That was the original idea of their ending. So and again it's the same thing. They took the idea of going getting members by going town to town and doing seminars and doing trainings, and

they it was all homeopathic. It was all natural, organic foods and inspirational tapes and new age and that was kind of a mat so they all sort of it's kind of you know, their techniques changed throughout the groups, but they you know, they get something, you know, whether it's Jim Jones saying yes, we like blacks, we like gays. Come on in. You're all welcome here, You're part of us. Whether you're selling traditional you know, eat eat this certain way,

or whether you're doing yoga and meditation. It all starts out was quite an innocent and quite a friendly group, and people feel very welcomed and they get involved in these groups, and somewhere along the lines they get so indoctrinated that they can't leave or they have no means to leave, and then it goes into something that's quite ugly, whether they're burning themselves in a ritual or killing themselves or it's just all or whether they'll die for the

group themselves like David Koresh or something, whether they're willing to just fight, fight for the right to do what they do until they're dead. You know, it's kind of one of those things, and it always ends that way. But once they're in and involved and they're so they're living the life style from doing it over and over again, they either can't leave, won't leave, or they don't want to leave, and they get sucked into this energy that's going to going to kill them.

and laser lights and sound effects. And so if a bunch of members fifteen members leave and also now this idea that his claims he's using again, he's claiming that he's telepathic. He's again a healer. Gerre and Dimambro have all kinds of money and properties, but those property values in the eighties, with that recession in the early eighties,

these property values are plummeting. So with headline news, you write in March ninety three, after this month in nineteen ninety where Demambro's son is speaking out about his father. In ninety three, they make headline news and three members including Jerre or two members plus array are arrested or trying to buy guns with silencers. Tell us what happens after that as a result.

phones and following them around and stuff like that. And with that they started finding out their plans to bomb, like for the First Nation's reserves, and they wanted to blow up in Canada the Quebec hydro tower transmission towers, and so they started they had these real they were getting into the aggressive attacks, but again with the Sun

outspoking it, it started making them really scared. And when some of the members were arrested for the gun charges, they were worried about not getting in and out of the different countries. Right, So it was again the beginning of the end. It was where they were starting to lose their control, lose their funds, lose their power, lose their money, and that's always the start of where something's

going to happen. And so that's when by nineteen four, late nineteen ninety four, that's when the first sect of this group decided to commit suicide, and that was in Switzerland, and so it just that's it always goes that way. The direction and why they do what they do is sometimes different, but if you look at every one of these groups has the same sort of pattern and it's just it's just amazing to watch the transitions, and it's always the same and they all get it seems to

start out so innocent. The people that join, and that's kind of one of the big key things. The people that join these there's usually the same the same sort of characteristics. You know, they're people that need to feel validated. They're seeking an identity, you know, they're they're they're sort of their followers or not leaders. There's there's some sort of that they're looking for a purpose and meaning of why they're here and why there's life and stuff like that.

So you know with that they're looking for something good. So whether you have some meditation and yoga, or whether you have counseling or you have the tapes that you know help you self esteem and things like that, and like this group you're talking about with the Order where you know it's all natural, homeopathic living and get away from all those modern things and they're killing you. Right.

So it's and and people get into it, and like I said, it starts out really really mild, and then it gets to a point where the leaders or the people running the group gets get some sort of challenge or they start to run out of money or they're running out of time, so to speak, because things are falling apart, and that's when they kind of push the button and get the initiate the suicide or the killing or the devastation that ends up taking the group out.

And it's the same patterns all the way through.

the co founder of this solar temple. Here so around the base of the pulpit, in a sunburst design, were twenty three bodies, ten men and twelve women, including Dimambro's daughter who was twelve years old, all wearing white, various uniforms, empty champagne bottles everywhere. Half the bodies had plastic bodies bags over their heads. Some had had their hands tied behind their backs. Some had been shot, some up to eight times. A mayor, a journalist, and a civil servant

were found dead in this room. Meanwhile, fifty miles away, three chalets were burning inside twenty five bodies, five children badly burned. None were shot, but they had plastic bags over their heads. Some had been beaten, but most were sedated by drugs. Some left suicide notes basically talking about how hypocritical the world and oppressive the world was in those suicide notes. Later that same day, a house owned by the Solar Temple exploded in the basement. Dimambro chauffeur,

his wife, and their three months son. Three month old son was found now the plastic bag was over his head and a wooden steak was pounded through his heart. They believed he was the anti Christ. So, as you mentioned about, it started off innocent, and it really does start off incredibly innocent with homeopathy, and that's where they were recruiting from that office, and then organic organic produce, organic farming to this to that end. If it's over the end.

forced into it. So in that case that you know, they would shoot them, and even in this case they had to tie them up and some of them had to be shot several times. And so they were put in the right position in the ritual and they would go through with it. So if you get scared and you don't want to do it, then they force it

to happen and do it. So it gets to a point where they've gone too far and they can't get out, and you know, and then they're told like in this space you know what, they're going to the planet serious, right when they die of fiery death on Earth. That's you know, just like Heaven's Gate. You know, you get the spaceship and you're going to the next level on a new planet. And it's always the same sort of it just gets tweaked or it's different. You know, they

get it from other religions or other groups. It usually comes from some sort of religious belief. And that's really the key to this because it's the kind of the extra thing needed to get someone to join. You know. It's one thing to have the meditation or that, or the you know, the healthy eating or you know, and things like that to catch people that have them come

visit you or to let you in their house. But it's the next thing is when you have you know, some sort of you know, Christ or Catholic or something like that behind you. It puts people at ease to think, well, you know, this is okay. It's kind of that extra confident building thing that they need to make feel comfortable enough to get involved in the group. And that's kind of with all of them. That's sort of they what happens and then see it over and over again.

and otherwise on the internet. At this time with the Solar Temple, there was rumors of millions of dollars in the Swiss bank account. But again very bizarre that within that just basic hustle for money, because they very much like Scientology I find with this story was that they were there was different levels, but different levels based on how much money you had, how much money you contributed, you know, and the and very much like the scientologists too.

When you see a cult previously say looking and targeting wealthy people, again you see that in Scientology, which is again for lack of better is a main well, I wouldn't say it's a religious classified.

you know. That is one difference, but you're right in the other there's it's a never ending achievement of levels that you know, you know it'll take your life to get there, and and it was perfect with the Order of the Solar Temple because because they were into the healthy, organic, natural lifestyle and all that you know, homeo past or stuff.

It's perfect because you get a lot of the trendy people that are willing to pay a membership and to be put in class distinctions, you know, whether you know how good you are. So it was perfect to have levels that you charge to get people to come in, and then levels to help people as they grow. And it's kind of a nice thing because people are always trying to achieve or become better, especially if they're joining a group to find some sort of meaning. So it's

kind of the perfect scenario, if you will. And so the Order Order the Solar Temple did it the best in that way.

like him. It's a successful movie maker and movie star and lots of money and he believes in it, so people will think, well, it must be okay if he's in it, right, And you know that's backfired lately with things. But in general, celebrity is great to have part of the group or the cult religion.

the annual equinoxes or solstices. So this is very very interesting how this even despite all this failure for these prophecies, and despite all of the scandal, that seems to be again for anyone that would to scratch the surface looking for evidence and yet still people want to belong. Let's talk about Heaven's Gate and March ninety seven and Marshall Applewhite, leader of Heavens Gate, he led thirty eight of his followers to suicide, and he talked about bodies just being

tainers for souls and for souls to be. Tell us about his suicide and his ideas about the soul and how he freed people or was freeing for people to to die. Tell us a little bit about these bizarre ideas.

And then he starts out with the with the group and yeah, you're going to be transported, you know, you're going to get on an alien craft and and and uh, you know, leave the earth and and move into the next level. So it's just this whole idea of becoming something better. And he's he's the leader, and he's the one that's going to take you to the next level. Again, it's it's it's it's kind of a it's a different, different take on it, but it's the same sort of thing.

So after he met his wife, Bonnie Nettles, they got married and they became the beginning of the end, you know. And again they were pushed into it. It wasn't going to happen the way they wanted it so soon. But it's it's, you know, every one of these when you go through them, if if you take out even you know, the personalities, the personalities of these leaders or or and

their their concept, it's all much the same. They just have slight tweaks, and the type of people they look for they aim for can be different, but they you know, they they take them down the same road and into the same you know, and it's it's it's, you know, you want to reach back and scream at people. But so these guys ended up being called like a UFO religion, you know, in a way when you bring up scientology, it's the same sort of concept of becoming your own

God and and getting your own planet. So you can see how they relate to each other and how they take ideas from other more more popular mainstream religions.

that you use as examples, not everybody is willing. So there's the or this ineffective way of killing themselves, even in this case where they have to suffocate themselves because the method was ineffective.

the key to fining their meaning for life, and again the validation them belonging to again an elite group. All of these groups are elite groups that are enlightened in an elite way that not everyone knows of this message and has this benefit of this unique leader to lead them, but all of them, when we talk about this Solar Temple, everybody knows Star Trek and Lute and at Wahura and the brother of Nichelle Nichols on that series was so influenced again by watching Star Trek and Star Wars, but

also just being one of those vulnerable people. He was one of those people in one of those suicide videos for the Solar Temple, wasn't he?

was what they needed and and it happened. And you know, it's easy to look back, like you said, and see these things and kind of go, well, that's ridiculous, but it's it's the book really. That's why I have two chapters specifically on the things that happen and what happens to people when they get involved, and you know, the brainwashing and the indoctrinations and the different and even how hard it is to get out of it and that.

So those are really key important things. This isn't just a book that is, oh, look how silly these people are and look what you know, stupid things they did.

It's it's more realistic. It's about looking at people that are in some sort of transitional time in their life for whatever the reason, and they're open to some sort of group or suggestion or they need some sort of support system, and along comes of group that's very loving, that has a lot of techniques and I ideas that actually help these people, and they become part of the group because they feel loved and a lot of the other people in the group are in the same place

they are, so it works because you're in amongst others that also have sort of the same needs, and you become kind of like a family. And so it's it's really easy to get involved in this and get part, make it part of your life, and it helps them in a lot of cases. But it's just where it goes down the road. And of course there's no way they're going to know that, you know at the time, because everybody seems so good, so friendly, and it's just

it's just it's a transitional thing. So it's really important to look at, you know, the people that get involved and why and what and the things that we can do to help people try to get up of the groups as well and be supportive rather than judgmental.

pollution was an issue. So people that had gone through university, there was a revolution basically in thought, and so you had that atmosphere very much like you have now, but you had that atmosphere contributing to people that were good kids that thought that they should go through religious training, were very religious, but then were disillusioned and then as

a result, were vulnerable. But also the practices of buying far these con men, because all of them were conmin that these people then were they'd employed brainwashing techniques, which include like in Jim Jones' case, where they worked all day when they once they got to Guyana. When they got to Guana, not only did they give up their their possessions, but they also gave up their passports so they couldn't leave or it was very difficult to leave. And so they also were fed rice three times a day.

So you could see that they were worked hard, indoctrinated with films about Russia because that was their end goal was to go to Russia. And so they were worked hard, kept together, kept busy, and fed just rice each day.

come true. It was going to be the end. And so it's kind of a you know, you have to wonder with someone like that if they really believed in what they spoke or or if they did it just to make money. He's saying cases like that, I don't know. I think the order of the Solar Temple was that those guys were about money and finance, and they didn't believe a lot of what they put out there. But with Jim Jones, I don't know, he's he's an interesting individual.

I think he believed in a lot of what he said.

could purchase a one point three million dollar mansion. You know. Religions, some churches, many churches, I'm sure struggle, yeah, keep a roof, literally fix the roof on the church.

you have your bank account. So it's it's that's where they get this intense wealth because they take every person, like if you think about Jim Jones, you think about the hundreds of you know, having a thousand people and all of their income, and then you have all of their labor as well for free. It's pretty and pretty

intense how much money they get and go through. And yeah, you know, it's it's kind of a sad statement because most of these groups are still active to this day and still have followers and still believe in what they were taught. It's not like it's gone away. It's just the leader was killed or died and even a lot of the members, but there's still the religion so to speak, continuing to this day.

as wrongful killing of those innocent people exercising their religious rights. And then you have the Oklahoma City bombing. Will there be other people inspired from those movements?

you said, Oklahoma bombing. They're all connected in the fact that you know, there's a group that feel they have the right to have guns and the right to to have these religions and groups in amongst themselves. And it's

a real fine line. I wouldn't want to be the one siding, you know, as bad as I think Janet Reno handled this case, I wouldn't want to be the person that had to do that to decide when to move and when not to move, and when you've got your agents in David Koresh's case, actually saying that you know, they've got a stock pile of weapons. He's having sex with children, he's having babies with children. There's all these things that you know are against the law. But is

it part of the religion? Is it allowed or do you know? Are they allowed to do all this? And there's people that believe they should be able to and that's that's where you draw that line. And you know, they get to the technicalities. The ATF had no legal right to uh to try to arrest caress in the group for for the rape charges or the sex with the minors. That's not their jurisdiction. Like there's I've heard

all of these that that case. I was involved with a lot, and it's just it's just all over the place on how, how and what people believe. But bottom line is, don't get you know, don't get me wrong. I included this because you know, David Koresh or Victor Hutu this is his real name, was a seven day Adventist that believed the end of the world and was believed he was he was, you know, Jesus or Godson right from the get go, and right then I just I

don't trust them. So but they're still there, and they're still out there, and they're still following David Koresh.

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You talk about him being raped by his grandfather and his grandfather's friends, so there was a disturbing beginning to his life.

per se. They had a different concept of the world and more of a I want to call more of a television thing, you know, like everything comes from vampires and and things like that. And they get they get so influenced from what you see in these movies and books that have been written horror stories, and they adopt those ideas and they make it real to life and they become part of them, like where they like this guy Rod Ferrell thought he was he was a spirit

that kept coming back. He was an old vampire soul, so to speak. And and so so they don't have to like follow you know, Jesus. They're not. They're not necessarily the son of God. But there are still cults in groups like this that have the same sort of

you know, they draw in on people. You know, again, the people are different, but they get these people that have this weakness and this need to feel part of something, and they join and then from there they do something you know, usually Again, it's with these guys, it's it's sexual or something that becomes just part of the group behavior and it's not necessarily deadly, but it does lead to that over and over again.

and you get you get everything from them. And it's just it's like I said, it's watching a really bad horror movie and I I don't know, the blood letting ideas and all that just sort of you know, like I can't say enough bad about this sort of thing. You know, everything that you'd see candles and incense and it's just a bad, bad movie. And again it's it's people feel feel love for for their leader and if

they get into the life. This is one of those that if they got into the lifestyle long enough, it would continue even after Farrell's in jail, or even after he dies, people keep it going. But this is one that was cut pretty short. Luckily.

what this was all about. And it's just it's it's it's it's laughable, but it's it's not because real people get involved in this. And if this didn't end so quickly, it would have gone on and on and he would have had more members and more of this would have happened. And it's not. It's never a good ending.

that out. I can't figure out how they've developed so far into that life that they're they're going to live out their life holding onto that, And I just uh. And that's the ones I focused on. There's also ones that have been you know, if you know Robert Randon, go through him and a lot of the people he's helped the program and stuff, and they're totally broken away. But with this particular book, I didn't use any of

those conversations or influence. Really it was more about people that because I'm fascinated and on how on what that point is of when they turn into being that religion, that faith that they were taught rather than just a follower or part of the group at the beginning, Like where was it so that even the leader can be dead or proven wrong and they still go with the faith Like that's I'm fascinated with that point.