DID THEY REALLY DO IT?-Fred Rosen

So join me and the fun. Sign up now at chumbacasino dot com.

re examined in these compelling stories. True crime doctor Samuel Mudd set John Wilkes Booth's broken ankle, But was he actually part of the larger conspiracy to assassinate President Abraham Lincoln? Did Lizzie Borden bruly murder her own parents in Massachusetts? Was admitted Jihadis Zakari Musawi really involved in a terrorist plot to destroy the World Trade Center on September eleventh,

two thousand and one. In a series of provocative and eye opening true crime investigations, author Fred Rosen revisits some of the most shocking and notorious crimes in America over the past two centuries to determine once and for all,

did they really do it? Applying logic and techniques of modern criminology while re examining the crime scenes, official police records, in the original courtroom, testimonies of witnesses and the accused, Rosen explores nine infamous crimes that rocked the nation and

the verdicts that were ultimately handed down. From fall and Julius Rosenberg's execution for treason to the kidnapping and killing of the Lindbergh baby to the klue Klux Klan slayings of three civil rights workers in Mississippi to nine eleven, the alleged perpetrators get another day in court as Rosen calls into question the circumstantial evidence and cultural context that may have determined guilt or innocence in each case. The book that we're featuring this evening is did they really do It?

So let's leave that for a little bit of suspense for the audience and let's get to did they really do it? What was what was the criteria that you used, what was the how did you choose these stories? And why did you want to use these stories? What did you want to convey in these stories?

of of of murder actually had done it. And so what I was doing here was I was trying to take a look at those where I felt there was some doubt or some doubt had been put into the equation by others, and so I figured, you know, and actually what I was doing here was I was sort of following a little bit on what my friend and fellow journalist Gerald Posner had done in Case Closed, which is to use uh, contemporary forensics and so for and and and and the current investigative techniques to take a

look at some at the at the guilt or innocence of these individuals. And to be quite frank, a lot of this was stuff that I'd heard about it as a kid, like the civil rights workers, you know, that I grew up with, and the Rosenbergs, for example. I lived in Brooklyn, my my almost my entire life, and every time I would go past the funeral home where their bodies were taken, my dad would say, gee, Freddy, that's where the Rosenbergs were taken. So that stuff sort of,

you know, stays with you. So it was a combination of both personal understanding of what had occurred and at the same time, in the case for instance of Zacharias M. Sally stuff. That's oh kurant, it's to me, it's relevant.

And one of the problems I feel that goes on in criminal investigations, and please weigh in on this, is that too often we're very journalists included, were very we're anxious to put responsibility on somebody without really doing the proper investigation and especially using history to take a look at it. And in the case of doctor Samuel Mudd, I mean I was astonished to find out that President Carter has been asked to pardon him. I mean, I

couldn't believe it. You know, you know it's and so one of the themes in the book for me is how the past effects the president and how these cases that you think are back there, Hey buddy, they're not back there. They're still they're still right here. And you know, certain cases, now obviously other cases like if we were talking about Bundie for example, you know, I certainly would leave that to my friend Kevin Sullivan, who's written about

it extensively. I mean, that's a difference kind of thing. They're gacy, but these are individuals in the book where there was some doubt about the guilt or innocence. So I was looking for the best cases I could find where I could use my skills and just delves take it deep end. You know you know what I mean?

Then there's Lizzie Borden, who of course killed her parents. That title is called forty The title of that chapter is forty Whacks of Trouble. Well, I was up all night in that one then, and that's an infamous case, and I knew that I had to take a look at that one because one of the first cases I ever worked on murder cases involved paraside, and so I'm very familiar with parasite and I need to take a

look at that. Then there was Mary who killed Mary Fagan, which is about Leo Frank who was a Jewish factory employee and Georgia who was convicted in nineteen fourteen of killing a fourteen year old factory worker. And that was a personal one because I'm Jewish, and I eventually discovered that Leo Frank is the only two ever convicted of murder and was then hung by the ku Klux Klan,

and that was in a way personal. Then I went to the one who framed who was Bruno framed regarding the Bruno Richard Holtman, who was convicted of killing the Lindbergh baby. Again another very very very big case. And

of course, as you go through this stuff. What you find is that it's the stuff in the periphery that gets really interesting, you know, not just the case, but in this in the UH, in the UH, in the Bruno Richard Haltman case, he's convicted of killing the Charles Lindberg's child, and I didn't know what happened to Lindbergh afterwards.

Like then there's a bullet for Pretty Boy, which is about pretty Boy Floyd, famous outlaw from the nineteen thirties who was convicted of being involved with the Kansas City massacre, which involves a killing government agents. And that one what I did because I'd never written about any of the outlaws, you know, like Bonnie and Clyde and so forth. Then

the atomic spies Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. That was a really interesting one because, as I mentioned earlier, they were buried from a funeral home on Flappish Avenue in Brooklyn, where I come from, and I was really interested in, you know, did the you know, obviously did they really do it, because they got death for allegedly turning over atomic secrets of the atomic bombs of the Soviet Union. And what was real interesting in that case was that

was that their their KGP handler. After the Soviet Union collapsed in late nineteen nineties, he went public with information regarding it. Then we get to the murdered civil rights workers. Oh my god, this one. I remember this as a kid. Fl rights workers Shaney, Goodman and Schwerner were killed by the KKK in Philadelphia, Mississippi. And I never ever thought, as most people would, that anybody would ever be convicted of murdering them. Well, it happened in two thousand and five,

so I needed to cover that. Then, of course, the Boston strangler Albert T. Salvo there had I didn't know this until I got into it, that there was. There was speculation there was more than one dude who had strangled these women in Boston. That was a movie, by the way, late sixties, probably the best performance ever given by Tony Curtis, believe it or not. He played Albert Tasalvo. Then I had to go. I had to do a

zacharyas Massali, the twentieth hijacker. He was allegedly the twentieth hijacker in the nine to eleven plot, but as I discovered, there was evidence to prove that he wasn't, and I was able to. Then in the second part of the book deal with in the present day, Samuel Mudd being his relative his grandson, not great grandson, his grandson ask President Carter to pardon him, and I'm going, what the heck is this about? I missed this story, so you

got to get into that. And then the last chapter is the Murdered Civil Rights The Murdered Civil Rights Workers Part two, where Edgar Ray Killen was tried for being the grand legal who actually set them up and make sure that they were murdered. So what I was most interested in was how the past affects the present and amazingly, how a crime could occur.

this occurred, and like you say, patricide, who knew? So let's talk about Lizzie Borden and this murder of their parents, and how on earth you talk about one of the attorneys. I'm jumping ahead a little bit that you said he was the bailia this time, so I'll get you to explain what was it about him that was so flee baileyish.

So let's first talk about it, just a little bit about the the murders themselves and what police found and what they were working with, and then the very very interesting trial that ensued.

from that point of view. You know, the two classic motives for murder are money and sex, you know, sex, drugs, rock and roll. You know, you can put it any way you want. And I was curious about it because you know, we hear you know, this is like one of those cases you hear about over the years, and there's always a joke about it. You know, I think there's you know, there's even some rhyme, you know, Lizzie

Borden twenty wax or something. I don't remember, but so you know, that's the sort of thing that attracts me to say, okay, well what really happened? And as I looked into it, the first thing that hit me was that this is overkill. Overkill meaning after the person is dead, you keep going, well, that is a classic m for paraside, which is the murder of a parent, and that occurs because of certain reasons, which if you want me to

talk about at some point, I'll talk about. And she had two very well known, influential attorneys working for her. A guy named George Robinson, who was former governor of Massachusetts Andrew Jennings, who I do describe as the f Lee Bailey of his day. In other words, this is a dude who always took on cases regarding people who were behind the eight ball and had a tremendous record of getting them off. And by the way, this is

the late eighteen nineties. And again that's the other part that I find so interesting, because so much of this book, as as well as our history, goes from the late eighteen nineties into the nineteen hundreds into the twentieth century. And so I really wanted to look at Lizzie Borden and find out if she had done it and why. The motive, of course, is always all important, and what the evidence was to show that she had done it versus the evidence to show that she didn't.

what the police missed was the overkilled. They were much too interested in her h what do you call it? Inheriting money, you know. And Lizzie told there was a doctor that showed up named Bowen o'bowen and and he told this dude that and that Bowen discovered the body of of mister Bordon downstairs. And Lizzie then said, well, I do not know where mother is. I had been out to the barn and the servant was on the

third floor, okay. And then it takes a little, you know, a couple of minutes later before they find missus Borden. And then it's a question of okay, you know who died first and how did it happen? But Lizzie kept maintaining, Uh, I'm saying Lizzie like she's my buddy, you know. But Lizzie kept maintaining that he was someplace else when all

of this occurred. And Bowen later wrote about Missus Borton that her skull had sustained almost exactly the same damage as her husband by what appeared to be the same weapon, and he wrote, I think she must have been engaged in making the bed when the murderer appeared with an axe or hatchet and made a slash in her. After that, she turned and the fiend, I love that word, chopped her head as if it had been a cake of ice.

One blow killed the woman, but the murderer kept on hacking at her until he was well satisfied that she was dead. That is the tip off. That's the tip off. If it's a robbery, you don't do that. You just kill the person, you take the money, and you leave. Why the overkill and that's what stayed in my mind as I can't looking at this case.

things at trial. And again lucky she had this f le Bailey type lawyer, because there was also testimony from an Eli Bentz, a pharmacist said that a woman had come in and tried to buy a bottle of hydro cynac acid and she says, you want to kill some moss. Because so they had this kind of evidence that and other evidence that there was something maybe that she had tried to actually poison her parents, sort of a die run for murder. Yes, So tell us how it proceeds

at trial. How does Lizzie Gordon get a jury convinced that she's not guilty with all this damaging evidence. I know, they don't know anything about patricide. They think that this is the again that you describe the fiend. So tell us more about trial and how she is defended.

I mean, she's saying she was someplace else. Now, there was a witness that later said that she wrenched out some garment that one of the seedents had been wearing, or I think it was hers, I don't remember, but here it is. She was. Yeah, Lizzie was wearing a faded, light blue calico dress and she was washing it and somebody saw her doing it and she said, I'm going to burn this dress. It's all covered with paint. Well,

of course it was blood. So you know, you've got you've got a situation where you certainly have some circumstantial evidence, but you don't have any direct evidence. And most importantly, the motive, the motive, the mode of the motive. I'll go back to that any number of times. Why would a woman want to kill her father and her mother? Now, again, the most obvious one would be, oh, I'm going to inherit a lot of money. Well, if that's the case, there'd be a lot more murders in all of our countries.

But that is not the reason that this occurred, and that is not the reason why this crime occurred. So, you know, I was really into trying to determine what her motive was. And unfortunately the police did not look into any possibility that she'd been abused by one of both parents, which again would have been a very rare occurrence in those days and it's still pretty rare today. Dan, I mean, sure, you know what happens that cop. You know, cops don't generally we look at this stuff. Again there

you know, you know, they're like anybody else. Whatever is the easiest way to go, they're going to go.

the arts. As you say, in your investigation you found evidence of molestation, as it makes a lot of sense now of course one hundred and something years later, but yeah, really that's what you found.

but the father because is almost a fipher. I mean, sure, I'm speculating regarding the abuse, but if you use modern day profiling, you have to say that that the the over care is indicative of parriside. Because in every parasite case you can find in contemporary true crime literature, you're going to find that the individual or individuals were abused. And I don't think there's any doubt that that occurred here. Part of the problem is the time period we're talking about.

You know, it's sort of like it's the same thing like last time I was on your show. I talked about how doctor Willet Bliss murdered James Garfield. Well, who would ever think a doctor would murder a patient? Okay, who would ever think that a child would murder their parent. There's got to be a motive for it. And I am convinced that she committed this crime because her daddy molested either physically or emotionally.

amount of publicity. And of course h F. Lee Bailey was the dude who defended him and in fact saved his life.

thirteen women in the Boston area in eighteen months. And the thing that you said that strangled, yes, And and the thing that was the most shocking for the city, the police and everyone was that these were not people that seemed to maybe live a dangerous life and have something like this coming to them. Possibly these were middle aged, maybe even elderly. These were not prostitutes. This, you know,

set the city, frightened the city. So this was uh so, tell us you talk about how the murder stopped, and then eleven months after the murder ceased Albert de Salvo on a completely different charge. Right, tell us a little bit about Albert DeSalvo, a little bit about his background before we talk about his what he tells police incredibly.

more of this stuff going on. But that's not the case. When he was seventeen, he was drafted into the army enjoy you know, he loved it. Became a specialist E five. But he gets busted back to private fulfilling to obey the superiors orders. And he meets a woman in West Germany and they fell in love and they married. Guess what fifty five he leaves the military. He's arrested to finding a young girl. The charges dropped. Then his first child, Judy,

is born, and she has congenital pelvic disease. And after that his wife avoids having sex without bit at all, plus because she doesn't want to bring another child into the world with that problem. But what's happening is the salvo and I'll relate to this. Maybe I don't know, maybe there's some people that do. But he has this insatiable sexual urge. He needed sex at least five or six times a day. He had to find at someplace. And so the next thing, you know, he becomes a burglar.

And of course burglary is a crime of uh it's it's not just a physical crime of you know, of of you know, stealing st but it's assaulting people's you know, where they live, no pun intended. Yeah here it is burglary. You know, it's a sexual crime because it involves an invasion of a person's privacy. So he gets all these arrests for burglary and so forth and so on. So he has this long criminal record, yet he's extremely well liked by the people who know him, his wife and

his new wife and his son love him. Is it coworker's life like him? But he's a thief and he's also a braggart. He likes to exaggerate his achievements. He gets arrested for breaking into a house. I mean, this stuff goes on and on and on and on. So there's something going on in this guy's psyche that makes him engage in burglary. And again, obviously you know this whole business about having to have sex a zillion times

a day. And then of course the Boston stranglings begin in the first Yeah, it's actually the second quarter of nineteen sixty two. That's that's the next thing that happens. And you know, the police, of course don't know who this is.

it's utterly fascinating. Again, this is very, very unusual for him to be arrested on something else, really no pressure. Tell us about this confession.

in this stuff? Did you do some of them? All of them? Albert answered, he's trying to make money. He's trying to make money. He figures if he confesses to this stuff, not only does he does he get credit for it, He's gonna make a lot of money. And then what happens is the judge sends the salvo for psychiatric evaluation. The cops are still not convinced these but these he's the he's the dude, and and that's you know.

And then what happens is he he makes the acquaintance of a guy who uh his attorney is Lee Bailey, and Lee and Lee Bailey visits Albert de Salvo and Jill, and Albert de Salvo says, I know I'm going to have to spend the rest of my life locked up somewhere, uh, but I want to tell my story to somebody who could write it. Maybe I could make some money for my family. This is way before it's time, and it's before the Son of Sam laws, which in the United

States prevented criminals from making money up their crimes. I think most of them have since been uh taken off the books, you know, But so in any case, when he makes Bailey's acquaintance, Bailey's primary concern is keeping him out of the chair, you know, which was the way that people were executed in those days. And he Bailey questions him, and he becomes convinced because of the detailed

Dissalvo gives him that he's the Boston strangler. And that's when Bailey gives the Boston police access to DiSalvo to ask him questions about the case. And basically he's making a deal. Okay, I'll give you this guy. You can solve the cases, but you can't put him in the chair. It's got to be it's got to be life.

And it's almost like, you know, you gotta sort of wonder what's going on behind the scenes, because for breaking and entering, the judge winds up giving them life period. You know. And Bailey later writes, and this is a direct quote, my goal was to see the strangler wind up in a hospital where doctor doctors could try to find out what made him kill. Society is deprived of a study that might help deter other mass killers who lived among us waiting for the trigger to go off

inside them. Pretty interesting, you know, I mean that, you know, and you know, you have to say that is a brilliant, brilliant piece of defense work on the part of mister Bailey, because what he did was he got a bad guy off the street who was killing people and got him sentenced to life. Was hoping that he would get some care behind bars. But that doesn't quite happen because something else happens.

his time. And then once he's he's he's so he's got you know, he's got that part of it, those motives, you know, the sexual stuff, plus he wants to make money off of it for his family. He's very interesting that way. You know, as we're talking, I mean, you don't find too many serial killers that you know, really are trying to look out for their families. And as we're talking about it, I would say, you know, the evidence which would say that this guy had a conscience,

which is which is possible. You know, it doesn't mean not every single serial killer you know, or killer is a sociopath, but this guy appears to have had a conscience because he cared about his family, he cared about what happened to them. But at the same time, he was trying to make up for these bad things that apparently happened to him in his life, his lack of self esteem and so forth and so on. And also

he's not a good looking guy, as he says. But then again, you know, you go back, Look, most of us aren't movie stars. You know. I was going to say, we don't look like Burt Lancaster. But that's going back, isn't it. I'm sorry, I'm not going to go to Tom Cruise. I can't stand him, sorry, folks. But anyway, you know, he's you know, with a guy like this, there's also the issue of power, the fact that he controls things, he controls women. So that's that is also

very very essential to understanding this individual's personality. By the way, you know, this was another this was this case is late sixties. I remember it very well. I mean I was a teenager. But man, there's a lot of publicity about it, you know what I mean.

for comparison purposes. And if Pasalvo had raped and stranglers, he claimed that the a forensic footprint, well guess what, it didn't match. In other words, Mary Sullivan was raped by somebody else. So that is what leads to the supposition that there were copycats. So there was more than

one Boston strangler. That's pretty damn interesting because it's very rare that you have a situation where you get a bad guy and you can you actually prove through through forensics after the crime is committed that the guy didn't do it. You know, that just doesn't happen very often. I mean, I can't even think of another instance where it does you know, was he the boss that you know, and I talk about this obviously, was he the boss

and strangler? And I, you know, I get my my my opinion as as far as you know what he did. But one thing is clear. He didn't kill Mary Sullivan. So that's a victim that was duck for him, that he didn't do because doctor Starprugi didn't do it, which

means that person could still be out there. And remember, you know, as I point out here and I'll actually ask you about this in terms of how it works in the Commonwealth, murder is the one crime in the United States that there's no statute orimentations, and I'm going to assume it's the same in the Commonwealth of my correct Oh yeah, yeah, well there you go, because we get out of law from you guys. You know, in case anybody doesn't know Dan lives in France, just making

it up. But but seriously, seriously, it's you know, you don't see this level of scientific inquiry into this sort of thing because it's too easy for cops to clear a case and say this guy did this, this guy did that, so forth and so on. And when you get a guy like James Starr Stars rather involved. I mean this guy, I think this guy also worked on Oh yeah, he if I remember correctly, Stars also worked on trying to determine if the Sundance Kid was buried

in Bolivia aka Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. So you know, you get you know, you're really getting into not only heavy duty DNA testing, but real pros. And you don't see this happening. And how often have we seen something like that happen in a serial killing case. I mean, I wrote about BTK, Nothing like that happened there.

You know, it's just too easy to pind you know, you got five murders pinning on the same guy, you know, because you know, the other thing I remember is that anytime you get a guy who likes Star is involved, you know, or any Fransic specialists of courts a lot of money, you know, and also there's got to be a reason to do it. So you know, in a case like this, it's not it wouldn't be so unusual simply because you know, you're talking about one of the

most famous serial killers in American history. But that's not going to happen every single time down the line. Wow, you talk. It's funny we're talking about this and I'm going, gee, where are these people today? You know, It's like, wouldn't you know I'm saying to myself, geez, you know, why don't we get these people involved in more cases? I'm sorry?

the twenty first century. So let's go back to August fourth, nineteen sixty four and talk about what those What were the circumstances that these civil rights people basically know the story, but what were the circumstances that these workers were down there, these three people, these three young men were down there, and what was the role of Victor ray killing At that time.

clan organizer. And what happened was Schwerner, Schwerner, Cheney, and Goodman were the three civil rights workers. And what happened was Schwerner had been down in Philadelphia, in the Philadelphia area, visiting a church. And this is again in sixty sixty four, and what happened was the church was burned down by the KKK, and he had visited that church. And he's up in the north at some civil rights conference and he's as well, I got to go down there and

help those people. Now, So what he does is he goes with his buddy Cheney, who's a black dude, and then he elicts a kid named Goodman from Queens, New York. And Queens is one of the boroughs of New York City, and they go down there. They work for the Congress of Racial Equality Corps, and they go down in a in a what he call it station wagon, and Schwerner is already a target of the KKK, call him jew boy or go Tee because he had to go tee. So he goes down there to help these people. You know,

basically he's going into Philadelphia, Mississippi, to or for support. Now, the problem here is that you're dealing with the KKK, You're dealing with violent individuals. So he's going in there. These guys aren't armed. You know, this is nineteen sixty four. You know, it's the other way around. These guys think that, you know, because they're supporting the constitution equal rights for

African Americans, that nothing's going to happen. Well, he goes down there and he's with the other two dudes, and he's he's like, he's somebody who basically the KKK has putting hit out on. They want to get him. So what happens is the local deputy sheriff named Price, purely by coincidence, sees this station lag and being driven by Schwerner, Goodman and Cheney get this. He arrests the dudes and puts him in jail, claiming they were the ones who

burned down the church. It's a you know, you know, you gotta laugh, man, because if you don't, you'll go nuts. And at that point point, at that point killing, the Grand Legal starts organizing to get these guys killed.

a pretty smart plot. Is they wind up releasing them and telling them, Okay, you can go back to uh, you know, wherever you came from. But they follow him that of town, and then at some point they the civil rights the dude they have to decide which road to take. You know, there's more than one road in those days. The interstate highway system was certainly not completed now it is, of course, And so what happens is

the idea is it's a plot. This dude prices the sheriff is supposed to shadow him, and eventually, not only does he shadow him, but he pulls him over a second time. So this is the first time is when he arrests him. The second time is when he pulls them over, and then he transports them to the place where they're going to die. And it's all been set up in advance, according to the jury, but by killing,

and the rest, as they say, is history. If I can talk more about that, if you want, you know about what happens.

it a little personally, Dan if I can. When I was a kid, I remember seeing all of this on TV, you know, and I talk about it in the in the in the book where the the you know, various anchors on the three networks in those days there are only three networks come on and they talk about the discovery of the bodies and what happens is after the civil rights workers disappear, the United States Attorney comes in and they launch an investigation, and it becomes an investigation

to find the bodies, and using informants, eventually find that the bodies have been buried in this earth and dam under tons of of why. I start the chapter with the blue flies swarming over the bodies, and it's one after the other. So when they finally disinter them, you see the three of them, and what's happening here is now the next question is how do they die? And the local coroner, he won't even say that they were shot, you know, he was just a piece of crap, quite frankly.

But a private coroner is brought in and they're able to determine that they were. The three of them were executed, a couple of them were beaten up, and so forth, and then it becomes a question of okay, this occurred. The FBI establishes its first office in Mississippi. I didn't know that, by the way. I always thought the FBI was in all fifty state But it turns out they didn't have an office in Mississippi. But Herbert Jaegerhobert, excuse me,

establishes an office down there. And this, of course, all of this stuff is chronicled in the movie Mississippi Burning, pretty good movie with Jim Hackman and William the Foe. And so what happens is they were able to determine the government said that these individuals were executed gunshots. But you got a problem, and it's the same problem that exists today, which is murder is not a federal crime

unless it's not a federal reservation. So the only thing you can charge them with is executing them and therefore them denying them their civil rights. And that's exactly what happens because the Feds, no, they're not going to get any sort of conviction. Hell, they're not going to get they're not going to get a prosecution in Mississippi at that time. So they decide that are going to try them for denying these dudes their civil rights. And they put Killing and a Bower and a whole bunch of

other guys on trial. But the deal is you're only talking a couple of years in jail even, And that's exactly what happens. You know, a couple of them are convicted and a couple of them get off. You know, basically, it's a slap on the wrist for triple murder.

how could a man of God molest children? You know, the situation with it, you know with the Spotlight, the movie Spotlight, you know in Boston in the early two thousands, you know how the arch stye he's covered up from stations. Well, it's the same situation you know had had had as a guy who is who's you know, who answers to God do such a thing. Well, you know, maybe maybe

he's not really serving God. So he gets off and so you wind up in a spit with By the by the late by the middle sixth would be probably about sixty seven sixty eight. You want to get a couple of guys that are convicted and they you know, for violating civil rights. They go to jail for three years and then it's all forgot. And I got to tell you something, out of all the criminal cases that I can recall ever being exposed to, you know, reading

about whatever, I never thought they'd ever solve this one. Never. I said, there's no way, man, they're going to solve this case while I was wrong, Thank god. You know.

in the day. Sure you hear about, you know, stuff happening today, and you know they might protest here or there, that's not what they did back then. They killed people, they lynched people. I mean, you know, it's a pretty awful situation. So Jordan was really scared that they were going to get them for good reason, because they had the ability to do it. Because you're not only talking about individuals I'm going to use the term mobbed up, but you're cares were in government. You'd have a mayor,

a judge, a governor, whatever it might be. They were all part of this criminal conspiracy. That's how powerful the plan was back in the days. And it's amazing when we talk about it now to think that these individuals had this much power. And it's for the credit of the government, of our government of Lyndon Johnson and Jay Gerhober that they went in to bust these guys.

ninety four, Dela beck With is prosecuted. So what happens is the law paper, the Clarion Ledger in Philadelphia, Mississippi, and Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood, they push to prosecute the murder, the murderers of Schwerner, Goodman, and Cheney. And the only two dudes alive at that point that they can prosecute are the former deputy Price and brother Edgar Ray.

Killing that's what they called them. And so the idea is to decide whether Killing was responsible for organizing the KK came off that so many years before committed these murders, and I, you know, and I think it's it's such a credit to Mississippi that they did this, you know that they went into the millennium and they said, we're going to make this right. So the second trial of killing began. He's eighty years begins June fifteen, two thousand and five. And the guy had a he had been

in a logging accident. So he's in a wheelchair inhaling oxygen. And I actually wrote this, no open flames would be allowed in court. Gee, I wonder why I wrote that. And killing, you know, he was still an asshole shee did I say that on radio? And you know, he was like he punched out cameras and so forth and so on. And then out of the past, oh my god, out of the past. All these people come to testify

against him. And Schwerner's widow or you name this reader schworn a Bender, she testifies for the prosecution, and she starts talking in two thousand and five about the civil rights struggle in Mississippi years no, I guess it would be. No, it's forty years before, and what it was like, and she explains how how her husband at the time went back to help these people, and so forth and so on, and all of a sudden, you know, you've got all these years stripped away, and Killing thinks he's gonna get

away with it. You know, he thinks he's gonna get away. He thinks it's gonna be the same thing as a Lani thought. And but what happens is the prosecution does a magnificent job. They find a former Meridian, Mississippi cop and one time clansman named Joe Hatcher, who testifies kill him told them where the three young men were barn and then you know, the lis goes on from there. But what's but what's And then the relatives, you know, like Fanny Leech's Haney testifies, Uh, James James Cheney's mom,

she's in her eighties and she testifies. I mean, prosecution did a brilliant job because they were they were tweaking the juries. What do you call it? Conscience? So and and and you know, it's just a brilliant, brilliant job. On the other hand, Harlan Major, who is a former mayor of Philadelphia, Mississippi, testifies that Killing was a good man. Oh yeah, right, he's a good man. Yeah, excuse me, Yeah, he's a good man, just like uh. Oh, I don't know,

she's Vladimir Putin. He's a good man like Vladimir Putin. Sorry, I'll try not to get political.

allowed to say say to the judge and then the jury. Okay, if you can't convict them on first degree murder, you can convict them on manslaughter, which is a much lesser charge, except if you're convicted of If you're eighty years old and you're convicted of manslaughter, let's say you get saying years for each each each each count, that's thirty years. Well that's a life sentence. And so the the the state Attorney General, Jim Hood, he was brilliant. I mean,

I don't know any other word to say. He gave the jury that option. And in fact, what happened was the jury had some problems coming to a verdict, but eventually they convicted killing of killing of I'm sorry, of manslaughter for Goodman, Cheney and Schwerner. And that's when and then the judge pronounced this sentence and essentially it becomes a life sentence. And ironically, the judge, his name was Gordon. His family was part of the congregation that Killen used

to service as a minister. But he but this, this gut. This judge does his job. I mean, he does his job. I mean, you know, that's why I'm sitting here as we're talking, I'm thinking to myself, where are these people today? You know, like this reflects so well to me on the state of Mississippi and also on the ability of the American criminal justice system to bring justice in a case like this. And I just think it's wonderful because you can't bring the individuals back, but you could certainly

can settle it. And that's exactly what they did in two thousand and five. And of course Killing's lawyers tried to appeal the verdict didn't work, and as far as I know, I didn't check today. As far as I know, the dude is still alive and in prison, which means he's going to die behind bars.

They they gave closure to the families of the decedents and they they they they and they held an individual responsible. You can't ask for anything more than that in a criminal justice system.

I got to mention this. In the nineteen twenties, the Clan tried to take over Oklahoma, true story, they tried to take over Oklahoma. You know what the governor did in the nineteen twenties, Oh my god, he called in one of the greatest lawn men of the Old West named Bill Tilman. He worked with Bat Masterson in Dodge City, and Tillman stopped the Klan. The point now, in that case, nobody was going to go up against Tillman because they

knew he was a fast gun. Okay, But the point I'm trying to make is that the Klan rears its head periodically in our in our society, and thank God, every time that happens, there's somebody to cut their heads off.

in those countries. So I think the same mentality. It's it's interesting when you look at how people perceive black people and Hispanics and other and Asians, and when you look at in Canada too. We can't be immune. There are certain people that have this idea that as white people, we are superior or adversely, other races are inferior, and so I think that mentality still exists. Obviously, some people persist with that idea and it continues everywhere.

You know, I don't know what the hell that idiot was. Thankful. Sorry, gee, you think I'm going to carry New Hampshire Now, all right, go a hell. Fred. I'm sorry Fred.

so that he was he was recovering. Its scheduled to be released when he suddenly died Christmas morning, December twenty fifth, two thousand and six. Wards, it's almost ten years ago. And here's where it gets interesting. The family insisted no autopsy be performed, so his death certificate reads cause of death pneumonia. Well, he cut his children out of his will, leaving almost his entire estate approximately one hundred million dollars

to the I Feel Good to Trust for underprivileged Children. Well, soon after he dies, his family sues to break the will and they're successful. The trust no longer exists yet, though allegedly the family has received a lot of money from the estate, it has never been probated. Now, what happened was, I've been working on this case for almost a year and I just drove thousands of miles to

Oklahoma and back and involved in Oklahoma City. I saw the evidence that James Brown was actually murdered, and I've contacted the United States Attorney to let them know about my investigation. And I'd like to write a book about it.

with him when he died. Charles bobbittt was has already admitted publicly that he was in that room with him when he died. However, there was another individual who whose name has never been made public, and that's part of my investigation who was there. Now Sharpton is is not involved in in in in any of this or you know this part of it about how he died, the murdering the Reverendel Sharpton has nothing to do with it. But he was a close confidante of James Brown. And

this is prior to the Tweed Bori case. So so Brown every you know, Brown had a problem. He was into PCP right and so. But the most important aspect of this is this, after James Brown died, his family insisted no autopsy be performed. And I can say that with a surety that if it was performed, and his body currently resides on one of his kids has a farm in South Carolina and it's in it's in it like what he called a musoleum, sort of a makeshift musoleum.

He was embalmed. And I believe that if if if there was a an autopsy, it would show that the man was murdered and again, I you know, I've got I've seen the evidence. It's an evolved in Oklahoma City. Now what happened? Then?

didn't have a good relationship with him. He was affected by going into and doing performances in these six children hospitals, and he made a commitment at that time because it was so affected, that he would spend all his money, give his money away to these underprivileged children to educate them to make better their lives. So, now, what did the Buddy Dallas have to do with at least his idea that the children were not going to gain from James Brown's death.

something more. And mister Dallas was he was oper you know, he was doing the I think the right thing. And but that didn't happen. And so the money was left to the I Feel good trust. And again when when when James Brown died, the family insisted that no autopsy be performed, and the doc they're acquiesced, even though Brown had gone to the hospital with a drug overdose and he died in a very suspicious manner, which I will talk about when I hope when I get to write

this book. And so, mister Dallas, I think operated in the right way, you know. And as far as but as far as James Brown is concerned, you know, you've got forensics, you know, and forensics could actually show, if autopsy were performed, that he did not die from pneumonia, which is what it says on his death certificate. Yeah, and I have I have. I have to tell you it's been a it's been a long slob on this. I've been working on this case for ten No, it's

about a lie. I don't know, it's you know, this is the twelve months. Hey guy, I haven't even I haven't even gotten a publisher or or an agent yet. You know, I've been so busy investigating, you know what I mean. But it's it's it's uh, it's really something, and uh, it's really something. And you know, I I, you know, for something reminds me of Lobster Boy actually because of the fact that I've seen evidence, you know, and I'm involved.

you know, you yourself are a homicide investigator. You're a journalist, and you know and and you're an author, so you know, your skill set is much different than a lot of individuals who do similar work to what you do.

books along with other books. But and then in the audience gets that in these interviews and then gives me so much feedback, and you know, you get it as well from people who have listened to the program and just are enamored by our interviews and talking about these

stories and these cases. So it is a great community I think that we're speaking to and involved with, and it's my great pleasure to have you on, Fred, and it always is because these books are captivating and incredible and it's just one good, enjoyable true crime history lesson with having you on FRET. So I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about did they really do it? And just giving us a tease on what's coming up next with the murder of James Brown. So thank you ver much.