DEVIL AT GENESEE JUNCTION-Michael Benson

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in the devil at Genesee Junction. Veteran crime writer Michael Benson returns to his formerly rural hometown to take on the double homicide of his friends Kathy Bernhard and Georgie Anne Formacola that took place that night. The two girls were missing for a month and then found in the bushes horribly mutilated. The double homicide changed the author's childhood

suddenly and drastically. He went from living in a rural playland to being encased in fear, wondering who among them was the werewolf who cut up Kathy in George Anne. This hain'tus crime was never resolved and didn't go away in recent years. The author is teamed up with a victim's mum and a local private investigator to delve deep into the June sixth, nineteen sixty six murders. Developing along

the way some strong new leads and shocking details. Together, they have heated up the icy cold case, and their investigation has led them in a startling new direction. The book that we're featuring this evening is The Devil at Genesee Junction with my special guest journalist and author Michael Benson. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for green to this's interview Michael Benson.

George and Say's brand News. She bought it at the mall just that day, and they went swimming in Black Creek next to an ancient stone trestle which was originally built back in the nineteenth century. There is a towpath for mules to pull barges up the Genesee Valley Canal. And this was in the town of chi Lai. Yeah, everybody,

everybody from out of town pronounced to the Chile. It's okay, but it's Chilai and south of Rochester, New York, and the spot was adjacent to the Genesee Junction, thus the title, and that was where the Pennsylvania and New York Central railroads crossed again, not far from the river, just east of my dad's property. Back maybe in the nineteen twenties, there was a little village there because that was where passenger trains stopped and people transferred from going east west

to north south. But by nineteen sixty six it was pretty much a ghost town back there. The train still ran, but they were now freight trains, and there were maybe two buildings back there today if you want, if you went back to the Genesee Junction, it shows up as a town on maps still, but you went back there, you would find, you know, a path going through the weeds. It was graduation night at local high school. It was

the first night of summer vacation. Then the girls went back there carrying nothing but two towels and a transistor radio and they never returned. Now, during the time the girls were missing, some folks said that they just run off. Experts from the Sheriff's office said they didn't think so, because girls who run away almost always take clothes in and makeup. The other theory was that they had drowned, but that also seemed unlikely. You know, both of them

probably wouldn't drown, and they were excellent swimmers. And it never it didn't occur to me as a little boy that there was foul play involved. I just didn't think that way at that age. Well, a month went by and we kept waiting for the girls to be found, you know, maybe with boyfriends off someplace. But after a month long search, they were found by a farmer on a tractor who was investigating an unpleasant smell the site

to the west of my dad's property. They disappeared on one side of our land and were found on the other. So I spent the rest of my childhood with the knowledge that, you know, a very real boogeyman had walked behind my house. I never looked out. I never looked out a window at night again after that, because there was too much of a chance that someone might be looking back. The girl's remains were in bad shape. As

you said, it wasn't just from decomposition. They had been knife to death and horribly mutilated in a manner that civilized newspapers couldn't report at the time, although they handed at it. The details which I later learned are in the book. The sheriff told the press that they were looking for a sex maniac. So you know, again, from my nine year old perspective, I was learning about sex crimes before I had learned about sex. But the sheriff

was right. Years later, when looking at suspects, I always asked myself that question up front. It's this guy a sex maniac, and some where some weren't, and if they weren't, they tended to be crossed off the list. And you know, as you noted that the murders had a terrible effect on my neighborhood in my childhood, we were sad, of course, but we were also terrified, you know, there was a

monster on the loose. I've been living in a rural paradise, kind of a Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer type world, barefoot kids running around dirt paths through the fields because everybody took a bee line to each other's houses. And as soon as the bodies were found, all those paths grew over because kids who had been free to explore the creek area and the railroad junction on the other side were now kept on a short leash, never allowed

out of Mom's site. So the bottom line was I grew up obsessed with the crime, and this may be the reason why I became a true crime writer in the first place. I don't think that's a coincidence at all. And the crime was never solved, possibly until maybe the very near future, but you know, we'll get to that. During the nineteen nineties, when I was in my thirties,

I conducted my first investigation. At the time, I was a magazine editor, not dealing with crime at all, but with a little bit of knowledge of how the world worked, and I became obsessed with true crime books. It was a rather young genre at the time. I read them all, I think, and I was looking forms that matched our case, my case, and although I didn't know the precise details, I knew that there was sexual mutilation involved, and so I read them all. And the guy who fit the

bill closest initially was Arthur Shawcross. I'm sure your listeners are familiar with him. He was a convicted serial convicted serial killer of prostitutes in Rochester during the nineteen eighties. There are a number of things about Shawcross's biography that got my attention as a youth, he established a pattern of traveling back roads by car, setting fires, and spending lengthy times alone in the woods.

that's what he called it. In nineteen seventy two, around the time of his first two known murders, Shawcross's then wife Pandy, said that he'd gone on dozens of fishing trips during their time together, but he'd never once come home with any fish. So Chawcross was sexually messed up even as a youth, and he reportedly got a sexual charge out of lighting fires. He'd done to prison once

for arson. He torched a factory in Watertown Factory Street, creating more than a quarter million dollars of damage, and in nineteen sixty six, he'd been on parole for just over a year, he was expert with a knife. He hunted deer he could dress game. Later he would talk about wanting to kill a dough so that he could use his hunting knife to remove the animal's vagina. One of his jobs as a young adult was as an

apprentice butcher. He had mis rated animals in Adams, New York, and he later boasted the for eighty five dollars a week. He learned to slaughter nineteen thowsand bowls a day and until, as he put it, the krick runs red. During the summer of sixty six, due to his domestic woes, he wasn't get along with his wife. He thought of himself as a bachelor again, and he was rambling around. He said that he did strange things that summer. He drove around in a hot looking fifty eight pontiac, picked up

girls and had sex with them. He boasted, he couldn't stop himself, which sounds like he's describing rape or some sort of there was, you know, Romans and whatever it is he's describing. There now Kathy and Georgiana spirit in June, the values have found in July and in August, Shawcross and his wife separated for good and eight months later he was inducted into the army. He went to Vietnam and came back telling horrific stories in which he killed

young females. But since they were in this again of quote, Viet Kong chicks, they weren't really murders at all. They were kills. You know. He was big a war hero. And in one story, he happens upon two teenage girls bathing nude in a stream, waist deep in water, and he bragged, quote, they were both VC. I mutilated them. After his Rochester arrest in nineteen eighty nine, he complained that that mutilation murder of the two girls in Vietnam

haunted him most. Still, he considered his Vietnam kills his accomplishments, his achievements. He used post traumatic stress syndrome from the war as an excuse for his later murders. Now, his war stories were horrific, and they were also apparently untrue. According to his military records, he served two six month tours as a supply and parts specialist and was honorably discharged in April nineteen sixty nine. So he made those stories up? Or did he? I mean, he was confessing

to something. I talked to psychologists, and they said, you know, he didn't make the stories are too detailed for them to be completely imaginary. But he may have taken incidents that happened elsewhere and put them in Vietnam so that his ego could deal with them. And he always blamed the war on his later murders. He committed his later

murders because of post traumatic stress. Now, during the eighties, he murdered prostitutes and other vulnerable women in the street by strangulations and dumped them near or in the two Oynasee River, and several victims were mutilated post mortem in a way identical to the mutilations found in My Girls

in nineteen sixty six. So a comparison of Shawcross's behavior and that of the Genesee Junction killer was compelling, and so much though that in nineteen ninety nine, armed with my knowledge of Shawcross and my limited knowledge of what had happened to Kathy and George An, because the papers didn't print it and police wouldn't talk to me, I sent a written summary of my findings to the Monroe County Sheriff's Office Criminal Investigation Division, spoke with a detective

sergeant there, who apparently was pretty impressed with the letter I sent, and I pretty much laid it out just as I laid it out for you. And they sent a team of interrogators to the Sullivan County Correctional Facility and asked Shawcross point blank if he knew anything about Kathy and Georgia Anne. And Shawcross put his chin on his chest, closed his eyes, all his hands in the fists, and refused to discuss it. I was told that it was the same reaction his interrogators got when they asked

him questions about his mother. It was a standard response to what he considered a tough question. Now, sergeant told me that was all he could do, couldn't discuss it any further details because the case was still open. And I thanked him and he hung up, and for a time I felt great. I had, by proxy anyway got me in the shop across the space and confronted his entire ecosystem. He'd had a chance to deny that he was the Genesee junction killer, and he'd refused, And that

was about it for my nineteen nineties investigation. I knew that I couldn't come to a conclusion about who killed the girls, though until I knew more about the initial nineteen sixty six investigation by the Sheriff's office. But how to do that? So exactly we skip We skip ahead to the first decade of the twenty first century, and I'm looking at the crime from all angles, and I came across an interesting thing, a conspiracy theory that I still find somewhat difficult to ignore. I still find the

Shawcross evidence difficult to ignore. It's my philosophy that you don't have to believe in conspiracy theories to enjoy a good one. And this is the one I developed for this case. It started during the early days of my true crime career and I read this excerpt from a called the Satanic Bible, and it goes, Satanic Age is last one four hundred and fifty eight years. The last one where God was on top and Satan was cast

down started in eighty fiveh eight. Consequently, the new Satanic Age began in nineteen sixty six, and this time Satan is on top. Nineteen sixty six is year one an Ol Satanas, the first year of the reign of Satan. And those words were written by Anton Leavey, founder of

the Church of Satan right now. The original title of this book was six slash sixty six because the murder took place in June of nineteen sixty six and it's the Devil's number, but that was mixed by the publisher because numerals mess up search engines and make the book difficult to alphabetize. So we went with the devil a Genese junction, which I also liked very much, and we put the number of the beast in the subtitle. So anyway,

that's getting out of order. Going back to my original discovery of this, I figured if there was Satanic significance to the month and year of the murders, you know, six slash sixty six had meaning, then the proximity to the Summer Solstice had meaning as well, because that's a

Satanic holiday. The next Black holiday after Summer Solstice would feature Satan Goncore, and that turned out to be Lamas Day August first, nineteen sixty six, which was the day Charles Whitman climbed to the top of the University of Texas Tower in Austin and using a sniper rifle, killed sixteen people and will get thirty two others. People think of Columbine. I think as the event that made school spree killing a thing, but it actually happened years earlier

in Texas. After Lama's Day came all hollow z nineteen sixty six, and that was when beautiful co ed Cherry Joe Bates was knife to death on the campus of Riverside Community College in Riverside, California. She was eighteen in a freshman and later a note apparently from the killer was found written on a desk in the college library.

Now today because of compelling handwriting comparisons and a letter received by the press years later in which the purported killer referred to doing his thing in Riverside, the murder of Cherry Joe Bates is fought by many to have been one of the first murders committed by Northern California's notorious Odiac Killer. So you know Holy Cow year one ono Satanas? Indeed, Anton LaVey caius your chills, the guy

who proclaimed nineteen sixty six is that year. Anton LaVey his biography will you know you gave even more goosebumps. He was the first to publicly list the Satanic holidays, which he admittedly stole from Wicca, and although no one has accused LaVey of participating in ritual abuse or human sacrifices. No, we're not so sure about his followers. There certainly could have been those who read his book and took the

symbolism to heart. Some of LaVey's disciples might have just been used full experimenters and kids, being backy and weird, rebels against everything, contrarians who stood up when they were told to sit down. And for them, you know, upside down crosses, anything goes, attitude, you know, there's like catnip to cats. Some you know, they were vain. They dressed up in God fashion. They like they dressed like Wednesday Adams of the Adam's family.

any organized devil worshiping cult. But Richard Ramirez, the knight Stalker, he drew pentagrams on his hand. He said tail Satan at the scenes of his murders, but turned out to be alone, not not a member of any group. The closest link, that is, the least degrees of separation between Levey and actual Mayhem, came in San Francisco during the summer of nineteen sixty six, even as Monroe County Sheriff's Office deputies are looking for George and Cathy. At that time,

Leavey produced a witch's review. It was sort of a vaudeville cabaret show for the devil were worshiping set and performing as a topless vampire. In the show is Susan Atkins, who later becomes notorious. Is Sexy Sady of the Charles Manson family, probably through the person who killed Sharon Tate. Bobby Bouselet, another Manson family member, was also co starred with LaVey in a theater production of a It was called Invocation of My Demon Brother, written by Kenneth Anger,

who later had a best selling called Hollywood Babylon. So that brings us to twenty eleven, and this is when my investigation really took off. So you know, we've got a little sip of coffee. In June of twenty eleven, two events came together, you know, almost magically, now I

think about it. Kathy Bernhard as a mom was still around Alice, and she was a friend of my mother, and they were at a party and the ladies are sitting in lawn chairs under a tree, and Alice Bernhard says to my mother, you know it's too bad your Michael can't write a book about my Kathy Wow died. My mom hadn't even gotten around telling me that yet.

When on the anniversary of the girl's disappearance, I changed my Facebook status to a little bit moreium for Georgiana and Kathy, And one response as I got from that, came from a Bernhard family friend, Ebbie Douglas, who said, I should really call Alice. She would definitely be interested in speaking with me. So the bottom line is Alton and I partnered up. She said, bring me something to

sign and I'll sign it. So she signed documents making me the family investigator and authorized me to see the police files from the initial investigation in nineteen sixty six. Now I should know here that things were different then maybe I'm maybe not. But because the crime was so horrible, nobody ever told Alice exactly what it was that had happened to Kathy. Wow, they gave her saidatives and here

it was forty some years later. Excuse me, and she's still she spent all this time wondering, you know what what happened back there? Yep, she's read the newspapers. But the newspapers refused to print details. She asked the police. They said, no, no, no, it's better than you don't know.

nobody had told now. Yeah, So I said, also, I promise, you know, if I find out anything, I'm going to tell you everything I learned, and I'm going to treat you like a grown up. And she says, you know, I don't care how bad it is, it's going to be better than wondering. So I told her that I would write a book, just as she'd ask my mom if I could find a publisher. But I wasn't promising anything because I had no reason to think that a

publisher would be interested. I would investigate on her, behalf for free, for as long as it took. And she said fine, And she told me the point like that, there are two things I want you to do for me. First, you know, find out what happened to Kathy. And I don't think she meant who did it. I think she meant what happened you know what they did to her? And the other one was to get people to think about Kathy, because she was a girl who has forgotten the way too soon. And I said, I will sure

do that for you. So every time I ever talked to anybody interviewed anyone, I said, you think to Kathy today, I'm still putting it on Facebook today. We're thinking about Kathy Bernhard. And so now that the book comes out, I called Alice the other day and I said, you know, now people are going to be thinking about Katy forever. Yeah. I think she was pleased, and she was very pleased. So what we did. First thing we did is we

put Alice on local news and she did great. She was interviewed by reporter Caroline Tucker, and she talked about Kathy when she was alive and how she disappeared, and she said, you know, if anybody knows anything, called Michael. And what we received in response was a series of women now in their late fifties, but who were ten to twelve years old at the time of the murders, who had disturbingly similar stories, almost identical stories, and stories

that had absolutely nothing to do with Arthur Shacross. They told of being attacked by a monster in the neighborhood. They were told by him that if they squealed, they would be killed, and some of them had kept it a secret for all those years and were telling the story to me for the very first time, which again pretty chilling. Now one was attacked by the monster while one of the monster's brothers stood by and was lookout.

And this was back by Black Creek, not far from where our murder victims were last seen over where they were heading at the time of their disappearance. One had a nice hell to his throat. Another was victim of a home invasion. Now, the original investigation, I learned, had interviewed the adults in the area and they talked to the friends of the victims, who were mostly teenagers. But the children of the neighborhood were never spoken to, and as it turned out, they were the ones who knew

who the monster was. I'm so glad I was a boy because all of the little girls, all of the girls on my street, had been raped and we were a turn road of four houses. Now the investigation gathered momentum when I talked to private investigator Don Tubban. He'd gone to school with Kathy and Georgian. He graduated on the night that the girls disappeared. He'd spent years as a local town cop. In fact, we met for the first time when he was a town cop and I

was an underage teenager. Drinking beer behind the town railroad depot. Okay, initial an initial meeting wasn't friendly, but we're good friends now. And Tupham later worked as a state investigator, and he became a private investigator, and he agreed to help with the investigation for free because if Alice had no money and who knew if the project was ever going to generate any income. And he became a stalwart locator and

examiner of witnesses, had other help. I'm going to give you a list of names now, Don Campbell, Tom Weist, Amy minster Hood, act, Mary Anne Shils, Paul Johnson, Jerry Warren, Phillip Semraw. They all put in long hours taking photos, digging out facts, some of them a half century barried. So during the course of the twenty eleven investigation, I was asked repeatedly if I was writing a book about the case, and people think I just write them and

they magically appear in the bookstore. And I told the truth. I said, I'd love to write a book about this. He Alice wants me to write a book about this, but I have no reason to believe that anyone would ever publish it, because I've talked to a lot of editors in the publishing world, and had been told that the case had none of the things that publishers like. It wasn't recent, wasn't neatly resolved, the victims were not

rich and beautiful. And when I told those I interviewed that I didn't think there'd ever be a book, I was being sincere, although you know, we certainly wanted that to happen. I'm saying that because I think there might be an attitude from some people I spoke to that you said there wasn't going to be a book. If I'd know there was going to be a book, I would I wouldn't have talked to you. And you know, sorry, it's just how it things important. And did those people

have their names changed in the book anyway? It's like I did my best not to embarrass anybody. So the final piece of the puzzle was the publisher Roman and Littlefield, which looked at the book proposals differently from any other publisher. Catherine Canegie there, to her credit, saw the manuscript not as a true crime book at all, but as a memoir my story as it related to the murders. And I'm certainly not sure I agree holy with that characterization.

But I didn't argue the point because they said they would publish the book, and I said, okay. Now, because it was not published as a cheap paperback, it costs a little bit more than my previous true crime books. I'm really sorry about that. But it's also a much classier package, hardcover, beautiful photo photo by Philip Samra, designed by my daughter. And one thing's for certain, I can't wait.

I can't wait to hand the copy to Alice. She had wanted reader Bension's Michael to write a book about Alice Bernhardt's Kathy, and together we made that wish come true.

profound effect on you. And so you include a lot of the things in there that's growing up in this little, very peaceful and innocent time and place, and then everything changed and the relationship you had with George Anne was very odd. And then now a culmination comes full circle where you're presenting very good evidence on who may have killed these young women at that time. One thing that you also included.

tells her little brothers to go run home. And she figured that the dog had been hit by a train. But when she went to see she realized that it was much worse. That the dog had been slit and its entrails had been pulled out. Kick her here is that she is the wife of the monster. Yeah, and you know, holy cow, Arthur Shawcross didn't care about you know, Francine's dog. And the other suspects I'll discuss they didn't

care about francine dog. But if this is a message to keep your mouth shut from her husband, who's a dirt bag and a half, then it was very effective. Because the although the guy who we like best appeared on the sheriff's suspect list, he'd been alibied by his wife, the very woman whose dog had been killed. She's not alibying him anymore.

the country and have a little catch of land. He knew nothing about where he was moving in terms of the demographics, but it was a poor area that only recently had been inhabitable because the Mount Morris Dam had been filled, had been built, and before that the land flooded and you couldn't live there. So the first people to move in were almost experiments to see if make sure nobody drowned when the spring melt came. And then when that was determined that that didn't happen. Other people

well better means moved in. But there were you know, there were lots of shacks with without houses. And just in on Kathy Street, I think we counted five different men who had histories of being sex criminals. They were either you know, exposers or child rapists or just generally pervy guys. It's a it's a little little bit scary again, you know, wow, Glad, I'm a boy.

before their disappearance. Now, the thing that the complicating factor here that I haven't brought up yet is that when george Anne was thirteen years old, she became pregnant and she had a child. Child was put up for adoption, and it was generally assumed that Jack Star was the father.

But during our investigation we learned that, first of all, you know, the monster who's named in the book is Clint Wilson had been, you know, growing up and down the road, raping every adolescent female who didn't have a dad with a loaded shotgun pointed at him. He had he had raped the neighbor of Kathy. He had raped the girl who lived between me and Georgia Anne. Georgianne's older sister had called the Rochester police saying that he had raped her and Georgia Anne, at thirteen became pregnant.

We're assuming there's a connection there, and what we found out we talked to a boy who who wasn't Georgianne's boyfriend, but it was her coffee down a friend of hers, and he said that Georgie Anne had told him that she told her mother that Jack Style was the father of her baby. But she has lied. And it occurs to me, the thirteen year old girl who has been raped by a married man who threatened to kill her if she told has a dilemma. What does she do? And I think what she might have done, what she

might have found a boy in the neighborhood. She liked Jack, who came from a comparatively well to do family. He drove a corvette, he was twenty years old, had an affair with him, and then told him that he was the father of her baby, and he believed her, and there was talk. I think they wanted to get married, but Georgian's parents forbid it. So again we've got a scenario where it's all pointing in the same direction.

off of Scottsville Road, but she missed him. So she's afraid of him and wants to kill him. And now she's in a situation where she's not afraid of him anymore. And she says, well, he could have done it, which means to me that when she told the sheriff that he was with her that evening, she lied. Yeah.

with the girl unless her parents are with her. And this just just strikes me as absurd, is bizarre, and the only way it makes any sense is if they're all living in the same house, which means that you know, he's probably lived his granddaughter, and before more than a couple of weeks can go buy, he dies unexpectedly on his daughter's kitchen floor, where we don't know what the cause of death was. What we do know is unexpected

sens a care of itself. Yeah. Also, Clint's brothers, some of them, not all of them, had been in trouble for sect with these cases. None of them ever went to trial because in every single case, the victim refused to testify against them. Clint clint Our Clint. He also has an incident in his life in which he and we know this to be true, rapes his own granddaughter, which makes, you know, talk about a chip off the

old block, something had in common with Dad. And you know that that also leads to two bad things happening to Clinton. So we what we have here is is, you know, a brood of evil. And of course some of the family turned out fine, and I don't want to paint the whole family with with a brush, but we have we have brothers who are bad, and if you get them together and they're competitively bad, you could get to a situation where, you know, a Jack the

Ripper type incident could occur. But yeah, I mean there's there's also I suspect looking at the crime scene. I I suspect the first wound was George Anne's throat being cut, and this would match you know, him holding a knife to the of other victims, saying you make any noise, you're dead meat. And we have George Mulligan's ear witness testimony that you know he heard a scream coming from back by the creek. He said, behind your house a little bit to the left. Well at least it was close.

But if she screamed, then that could have been the first the first uh, the first cut. And you know, who knows what happens all of a sudden, he's got a dead girl on his hands. What does he do then? You know, whatever he wants?

in her bathing suit riding her bicycle. Stops the car and tries to abduct her, but she screams, and he stabs her with a hunting knife until she's dead, and leaves her by the side of the road and the murder had a lot in common with ours. It was it both took place on a Saturday, the victims were in their bathing suits, and police like to that fetish

a lot because the thing that they wasn't found. They found the transistor radio, and they found Georgianne's towel, but they never found Kathy's towel, and it had on it a picture of a girl in a baby ing suit with a big sombrero. So if bathing suits are his thing,

that was the souvenir he took. Now. Now, Rochester authorities went down to Pennsylvania to interview Miller, but they found him mentally incompetent and but nonetheless case against him heated up when it was learned that he he drove a make and color of car very similar to one spotted the night after Kathy and Georgie and disappeared by a teenage girl on the same lover's lane where the girl's

bodies were found. That sighting occurred on Sunday night, late on Sunday night, which a little bit of a discouraging factor because Miller shows up for work first thing Monday morning back in Pennsylvania, and technically he could have gotten in his car, driven to his to his work and reported for work on time, but it would have been you know, coacht Shay. It's not impossible that he was the killer, but I think the timing makes it less likely.

The Rochester newspaper ran Miller's photo and a surprising number of people called in and said they'd seen them in the area, including a bartender on Scottsville Road, right near the where the murders took place. He was known to be fascinated by female anatomy. He kept a file of stories about murdered children, and he ended up I think serving twenty years for the for the murder of the girl on her bicycle, and he may be alive and

walking among us down there still. But again, for him to be both the person on the lover's lane on Sunday night and the guy reporting for work on time on Monday morning would mean cutting it very close. You know. The other suspect we had where the fellow were calling Tom Armstrong. He was a local educator who, as the story went, and a lot of this is through the grapevine and nothing official about it at all, but the story goes that he confessed to his wife that he

had killed the girls and soon thereafter committed suicide. Now we verified as much as we could of the story. He'd committed suicide all right, not long after resigning from a teaching and vice principal position. But when we asked the family about confessing the murder, we were told that it all happened a long time ago and we should leave the family alone. The response lacked one thing, a denial.

I mean, if someone had written me a letter and said, you know, we think your dad committed a double homicide, I would have said, no way, my dad didn't do it. But the Armstrong family didn't say that. They merely had to be left alone. And it may just be that they didn't think it through. But anyway, I would like to know. I would like to know more about that guy.

Mm hmm, especially since also we have that where we found people who knew both Clint and Tom Armstrong and if if if they knew each other, wow, what a what a pair they were made.

we don't. But anyway, he didn't have the character to be a Hell's Angel, so he joined another biker group called the Devil's Disciples. And again this gets back to you know, six sixty six and Anton Levey. In addition to the creepy teenagers dressing up like the Adams family, the other group that really latched onto the LaVey symbolism were bikers. So yeah, as Clinton, Clint was the Devil's Disciple in addition to all the other things that he had going for him. But that's one thing I want.

I want to point out that the book's written, books done, the investigation will go on forever. And if there's anybody listening who knows any of these people knows something that that's not in the book, or just wants to talk about it, they can contact me at Facebook www dot facebook dot com, forward slash Michael dot Benson dot nine four two one, and whatever you want to say. Let me know who you think did it. If if there's somebody's out there saying I think I'm I'm a Shawcross guy,

love to talk to you about that. I never get sick to talk about Shawcross. And there are elements at the Shawcross story we didn't get to talk about tonight. You know, We're never gonna have a confession in this case. But I'm not convinced that it couldn't be a DNA

case and that it can't be solved. You just taken off the books, so you know, along with being an entergy aim informed for people who like grisly murder stories and educational piece about how to distinguish and stop systemic child abuse, it's it's a bit of a call to action for the Mono County Sheriff's Office, who have the subpoena power exclamation, search warrants and the investigation investigative punch

to solve this case once and for all. Like I said, Georgianne had a baby, and the father of that baby, you know, maybe our killer who knows you know, while they're in it, they may find a solution to the double initials murders as well. I don't know if they're familiarly with that's that the double initial murders happened a couple of years later and sort of made people forget

about the childlie murders that the Genesee Junction murders. They were three little girls, all with the same first and last initial, who were abducted in the city of Rochester and then were raped and murdered and dunked in a town in the suburbs. It also started that same.

one off the list. There was not enough crossing off of lists for my case. Like I said, we have a plethora of suspect Unfortunately.

possible suspects here, like you say, are very viable. What was your conclusion at the end of this other or were I don't know if it was a conclusion, but how surprised Being this veteran true crime writer and many years involved in this, were you still surprised at the number of viable suspects and the amount of similarities in a lot of these crimes that would lead a more amateur investigator to draw conclusions in terms of suspects.

they nailed and it's just real grizzly stuff. And these were the fathers of kids I was going to school with. You know, they all seemed like nice kids to me, and I'm sure there they were, but their dads were all into this really, really horrible stuff. And I remember I was interviewing one poor girl who who had been abused as a She lived very close to Kathy, and I say, you know, it's amazing that any any of the girls on Names Road survived, and she laughses, I

know what you mean. So I made perhaps because it was a poor neighborhood, that that maybe there's more of this than we realized. But it just does seem like there was an unnatural grouping of perversion right around the murders. Yeah, which which stout Benson's steered clear of.

but don't worry about it. We take care of our own. He used the pearl. And there are multiple Wilson boys who were killed by their wives or their girlfriends. And there would have been one more if fan Scene had managed to drive Clint off the road when he was on his motorcycle, but she missed.

I have. On next Wednesday, on the eighteenth, I will be appearing at seven pm at the Scottsville Free Library for a local Author Night and giving a little talk about how I became a writer. And then on the twenty first, on the afternoon of the twenty first, two pm, I will be at the University of Rochester Barnes and Noble signing books and anybody wants to come out and say hi, that'd be great. And right now I'm working on.

My new book is going to be on but the Escape from Dana Moore Prison Escape Lad of the Summer and when I'm emphasizing at the moment what these guys did to get to Dani Mora in the first place, because how you know these two dirt bags could end up in the honor block is pretty boggling to me. And my next book to come out completely change of pace for me is called why in the Grateful Dead Matter, And it's about the rock band and my and my love for them since I was a kid.

once and for all. I think you've given so much information and clues and direction that it should you know, it could very well become a possibility. So I wish you the best in that pursuit.