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You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
The heinous bloodlust of doctor H. H. Holmes is notorious, but only Harold Checkters. Depraved tells the complet least story of the killer whose evil acts of torture and murder flourished within miles of the Chicago World's Fair. Destined to be a true crime classic, this authoritative account chronicles the methods and madness of a monster who slipped easily into an a bright, affluent Midwestern suburb where no one suspected.
The dapper, charming Homes alternately posed as doctor, druggist and inventor to snare his prey, was the architect of a labyrinth castle of horrors. Holmes admitted to twenty seven murders by the time his madhouse of trapdoors asphyxiation devices, body shoots, and acid vats was exposed. The seminal profile of a homegrown madman in the era of Jack the Ripper. Depraved as also a mesmerizing true detection tale of two detection
long before the age of technological wizardry. The book they were featuring this evening is Depraved, the definitive of true story of H. H. Solmes, whose grotesque crime shattered turn of the century, Chicago, with my special guest, journalist and author and professor Harold Scheckter. We have a problem with I emailed Harold earlier today. We'll give Harold a few minutes to connect. There is Hello, good evening, Harold, welcome to the program.
Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. Yeah, thank you for that introduction. That was a great introduction.
Thank you very much. Welcome back to the program. And again I have to say that True Murder was designed to feature books like this, Harold. This is fantastic book about a fantastic and diabolical killer at a time that a story that many people still don't know. And I applaud you for this book. It's just fantastic. Of course I read it before I read it again. I will read it again. It's fantastic. It's not to be a true crime classic. It is a true crime classic.
Well, I appreciate it.
Let's talk about when you wrote Depraved. Okay, Well, I wrote give us the Conditions.
At that time, well, you know, I had a as you mentioned in your introduction, I have been a professor of American literature at Queen's College in New York. Queen's College is one of the senior colleges of the City University of New York, and I've been a professor there for quite some time. Actually, I'm sort of now looking
at retirement. But somewhere along the line, I began writing true crime books, the first of which was a book called Deviant about Edward Geen, the inspiration for Norman Bates and Psycho and Leatherface and Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs. And then I followed that up with a book about Albert Fish, very heinous
cannibal pedophile of the nineteen twenties and thirties. So and you know, at the time, actually thought of myself as somewhat immodestly having invented a new genre of literature because I thought of it less as true crime than true horror, because I was interested really in writing about American criminals who had, in their own time almost achieved the status of these mythological monsters. You know, their crimes were so extraordinary. So I can't quite entirely remember what led.
Me to H. H.
Holmes, although it might well have been a correspondence that I started when I was writing Deviant with Robert Block. Robert Block was, of course the author of the novel Psycho, and while I was writing Deviant, I was in touch with him, and I asked him at one point why he thought people were so fascinated by ed Geen, and he replied that it was because they had forgotten about Albert Fish that had led me to my second book.
But you know, in studying Block's own work, I came across a novel he had done called American Gothic, and American Gothic is based on the story of HH. Holmes, so you know that led me to look into the Homes case. At that time there was one other book on Holmes. Well, I have to amend that there was another nonfiction true crime book about Homes called The Torture Doctor, which was basically assembled out of a bunch of newspaper
clippings and so on. Anyway, So I think that's pretty much that combination of things, the Robert Block connection, my interest in writing about again these larger than life American monsters, you know, all of that, all of that came together, and in my own teaching, you know, I am a have been a professor of nineteenth century American literature Hawthorn, Melville, Poe, and so on, So you know, I've always been interested
in nineteenth century Gothic. So you know, all these things kind of came together and led me to the homes case.
Yes, fantastic. Now, you opened this book with talking about what they called the greatest calamity of the age, which was the Great Chicago Fire destroyed Million Dollar Courthouse, among other things, where Lincoln was held in state.
You say, well, destroyed.
Yeah, tell us about the Chicago fire and who was also observant at eleven years old about this fire and the destruction that ensues.
Yeah, Well, I mean, the you know, the Chicago fire, you know, was this huge catastropheme in Chicago at that time, you know, Chicago had built up very very quickly, really, you know, it had just begun as a few shacks on the ors of you know, of Lake Erie, but you know it it grew into this metropolis very very quickly. But it was basically all constructed of wood and in eighteen I can't remember the precise year, eighteen seventy one maybe,
but you know, this conflagration started. You know. The myth is at a cow owned by this woman named Missus O'Leary, you know, kicked over some lantern. Nobody exactly knows how it started, but you know, in a very short time basically the entire city was reduced to ashes and it
rebuilt itself very very quickly. But you know, but but you know, the news spread all over the country, really internationally, and I begin my book with a description of the fire and the news making its way to this little town of Gilmanton, New Hampshire, where H. H. Holmes, who was born Herman Mudget, you know, read about it like
everybody else. You know. One problem with writing about serial killers of the distant past going back to the nineteenth century is not a lot of reliable documentary information about their childhood, because of course there's nothing special particularly about their child. You know, people only became interested in their childhood after they became notorious. So you know, Holmes himself wrote an autobiography, and you know, different people have poked
into his background. But you know, it's certainly very very typical of serial murderers that they, you know, have a certain pyromaniacal streak to them. So you know, it wouldn't be surprising if you know, Homes was particularly titillated, you know, by stories of the fire.
Certainly, now you also talk about not a lot of information, but you talk about some important information. It certainly points us in the right direction of where some of his influence, of some of the influence came from. And you talk about bullying at school, and you talk about his delicate stature, you say was you know, and you talk about the real traumatic event that seemed to shape him quite a bit was the preserve heads and amputated limbs with these
bullies that were getting him. So I'll let you explain what you did find in the regular brutalization by his father and his mother, So bullying at home, bullying at school, and tell us about this very traumatic thing event with the skeletons and the limbs.
Well, you know, again, according to his own account, one of the formative traumatic experiences of his boyhood occurred when uh that there was the town doctor had a mounted skeleton in his office and which homes you know, is very very terrified of, and supposedly, you know, some school bullies, having found this out, you know, forced him one day when the doctor was out of the office but the door was open, Uh, you know, forced him in, uh and kind of locked him in the little cabinet with
a skeleton. You know. Again, you know, it's hard to substantiate many of these stories. To some extent, one has to extrapolate a little bit from what one knows, you know, about the various influences that shape the psychology of criminals
like Holmes. But you know, that was certainly, you know, a story that seemed to ring with a certain amount of authenticity, uh, and one that Holmes himself placed a lot of weight on, you know, when he was again recalling the you know, the sources of his own evil.
Very similar to Jeffrey Dahmer, I find too. He also had this early fascination with understanding the anatomy of animals and doing experiments, you.
Know, that's a good point. Yeah, well, you know that's a good point. I mean, you know, there is obviously a necrophiliac quality to a lot of these kinds of serial killers. You know, they really are in life with death and with dead things. You know, there's some there's some very very obviously profoundly aberrant, uh you know, urged, you know too, you know, to be in proximity with dead bodies and death. So you know, I think that
that was certainly, you know, the case with Holmes. I mean, he wasn't literally a necrophile in the way Dahmer was. But again they're they're certainly as you're suggesting, you know, a necrophiliac, a necrophilia quality there.
Now, early on we see the again the deviant and criminal mind of of H. H. Holmes. And and he's an intelligent guy. As you write in the book, he becomes his intellect is noted. He becomes what people consider a sort of an upstanding person. He's charming, he has that those abilities. He's a good talker, he's he's smart guy. And you talk about this his first I guess scam that sets forth the kind of blueprint for what he's gonna do. Later is this doctor E. S. Holton in
his drug store? So tell us what he does in Englewood and what does he do to get his first foray into gues medicine and and also a business.
Well, I mean, Holmes, you know, was a physician, he went to medical school, he had worked as a doctor, worked as a pharmacist in Philadelphia for example. Just to backtrack for a minute in terms of what you started to say, you know again, Holmes is you know, very
classic case. You know, you know of a psychopathic killer who is able to project this very very convincing and you know, even charismatic persona, and underneath it, you know, of course it was this you know, kind of hollow man, you know, a person lacking any capacity for empathy, lacking any conscience, you know, somebody who just really perceived other people is objects that could be manipulated and exploited, you know,
for his own desires and perverse pleasures. So so yeah, he got you know again in that respect, you know, he's very much like someone like Ted Bundy for example. You know, not every serial, you know, I think Silence of the Lambs in particular has led to this. Well, many Hollywood films you know, conception of serial killers as being these mass her minds, which is not true of most serial killers. But you know, they, you know, many of them are very very obviously cunning and clever, you know,
and some are very very smart. Bundy is one example of that, and and HH Holmes was another. But yeah, he arrived in Chicago, and he made his way to what was then a suburb of Chicago called Englewood, and I guess was scouting out the neighborhood with various nefarious plans in mind, and happened upon this drug store that was at that time run by a recently widowed woman named Halton, and Holmes introduced himself and was hired on
by her as a much needed assistant. And after a while he persuaded missus Halton to sell him the store, and she agreed to do that with a proviso that she could stay and live in the Abovestairs apartment she had shared with her recently deceased husband, which Holmes agreed to. And then shortly thereafter, she disappeared mysteriously and was never
seen again. And Holmes just you know, told people in neighborhood who inquired after her that she had gone off to live with relatives in California, even though she was not known to have any relatives in California. So yeah, that's how Holmes got a foothold in Englewood.
Now how does he he meets this Mrta Beltnapple? Why? Mary's so she doesn't know his background? But tell us about this union?
Well, I mean, yeah, Holmes met man, married Murda. They had a daughter together. What he didn't tell her was he was already married to a woman named Clara back in Gilmington, New Hampshire. So it was a big a mismarriage. Holmes had never bothered with a nicety of a divorce.
And one of the things I point out, you know, in in my book is, you know, homes seems to have harbored some actual human emotions for Mrta since she was one of the you know, few women he was ever involved with that he didn't end up killing, but she did become somewhat of an impediment to him in in the in Englewood, in the pharmacy. Uh. And so he, you know, he got her to move in with her parents at some distance, you know, and he would visit
her on a regular basis. But he kind of wanted, but he did want her out of the way so he could pursue well, among other things, other women and also put some of his other plans into action.
Now you talk about his charm and this flirtatious nature, and of course he's not only looking for women, but he's looking for what women can do for him literally. But he does set in another plan. It's just it's diabolical, but very and very cunning in business where he leases some land across from this drug store. So tell us this fairly ingenious ruse here what he does to this person through this sale of the pharmacy and then him opening another one. So tell us about this.
Well, I mean that's getting a little ahead of the story because that's you know, after the construction of the building. But yeah, I mean he did you know, Holmes managed to unload his the halt In Pharmacy. Should I then become the hh Holmes Pharmacy on some poor unsuspecting sucker, you know, a young pharmacist who is looking for his own store, and you know, Holmes by then had this thriving clientele. You know, Holmes told him he was moving away and you know, would sell him the store, and
he'd have this great business. And then Holmes, you know, immediately went and opened a far bigger and more luxurious pharmacy right across the street and basically drove this other guy into poverty. But you know, very typical of Holmes's behavior, you know, I mean, Holmes, as I said, you know, like all of his breed completely lacked anything remotely approaching a conscious or any ethical sense.
So yeah, you right that At around the same time in eighteen eighty eight, Jack the Ripper appears in England. You include this obviously because this is just the historical context and the background. It's important to the story. But what do you think JH. Holmes was thinking about the very first I guess person in the world that achieved a kind of fame that maybe J. Holmes might be interested in.
Well. Part of the reason I included this stuff about Jack the Ripper, although one reason, as you say, was, you know, it was such a sensational crime story at the time, was at the time I wrote the book which was published, and I believe in nineteen ninety four, you know, Holmes had been pretty much totally forgotten. I mean now, of course, thanks largely to Eric Larson's book.
You know, many many more people are aware of him, but you know, it was very, very fascinating to me at the time, and it was something that his contemporars noted that you know that that you know, there was this internationally infamous serial killer at large in England and here in America, there was a you know, a serial murderer who is every bit is terrifying as Jack the Ripper in certain ways, even more so, you know, and he had largely been he'd largely been forgotten at that point.
As for Holmes, you know, Holmes clearly at the end of his life, you know, craved the kind of notoriety
that Jack the Ripper had achieved. I don't know. I mean, there's no record of exactly what he thought about the Whitechapel crimes while they were taking place, but it was you know, again, Homes like many serial killers who have this kind of megalomaniac streak in them, you know, certainly wanted to be remembered once he was caught, you know, a as a world class criminal on the order of Jack the Ripper.
Yes, now you also talk about ben Epitizl if that's the right pronunciation, and an important character in this story as well. And he marries a woman named Carrie Canning, and they settle in Chicago and answer an ad for work as a carpenter. What is this project? And tell us about this meeting between the two.
Uh.
Yeah, it's hard to know how to pronounce the name. And I probably knew it at some point. I think it was Pitzel. And the reason I knew it at one point and it's a function of my age that I forgot a lot of stuff. But I but when I was writing the book, I actually got to know. In fact, my book is dedicated to her Pizel's granddaughter, who provided with a lot of family information. Uh. But yeah, but Ben was you know, he was a handy man,
he was an alcoholic. Uh. He responded to an advertisement for from homes Homes at that point, you know, is building, you know, the the edifice that would ultimately become you know, infamous as his quote unquote Howard Castle. Uh. He was hiring a lot of people, but there was something about Ben Pizel, we'll call him that homes again. Immediately recognized some kind of person that he would be able to
manipulate for his own purposes. You know, Pisel became his minion. Really, Pipsol became his right hand man, and ultimately, you know, the victim that you know brought brought Homes down. But yeah, but Tizel was, yes, I guess his minion, you know, is the most accurate way to describe him.
You talk about his behavior as a businessman. On the on the surface, people see this enterprising, charming, wealthy businessman. But meanwhile, this this structure should have taken six months but has taken eighteen months.
Why is that?
What is his business behavior?
Well, again, you know, they're probably a number of different factors, but one appears to have been in that Homes would hire. He just hired this incredible number of work. And he would apparently hire a workman to do, you know, put up a wall, and then fire the guy, you know, and then hire somebody else to do a little job, and then fire the guy and so on and so forth.
And you know, apparently he you know, the rationale for this was a he didn't want anybody to have any really firm sense of what the interior of the castle is ultimately going to look like. So, you know, instead of hiring a contractor to handle the whole job. He became the contractor himself, you know, and we're just hire. As I said, you know, scores and scores of workmen, you know, each one assigned to do one little task
and then get fired. And then the other thing was, you know that homes would have a guy do whatever, you know, put up a wall or you know, lay down a floor or you know, construct something, you know, put up some ceiling rafters, and then complain that he didn't like the job and fire the guy without having paid him. So he both saved a lot of money. But again he was also able to keep the interior design of the castle a secret from anybody who had worked on it.
Tell us a little bit more about this three floors structure that you described, this unique castle and it's unique layout, but also you talk about this massive kiln that he has installed in the large zinc tank. Tell us a little bit more about all this installed there. And you have, interestingly a comment from one of the workers.
To yeah, well, you know, theior from the outside, you know, the castle just looked like this very very impressive block long office building. The first floor was rented out to various legitimate businesses. There was homes his own pharmacy, and there was a jewelry store, and you know a number
of other businesses. But the you know, the remainder of that consisted of this labyrinth of you know rooms, some of which were you know, just normal rooms that could be used as you know, hotel rooms and so on, but there were all kinds of weird and bizarre and
grotesque architectural features. There were oh, shoots that led down to the basement, and stairs that led nowhere, and rooms that were lined with asbestos, and you know, another room that was a sound proof fault, and you know, there were pipes leading from Holmes's office, gas pipes leading from a control panel in Holmes's office that would feed gas into other rooms. There were peopoles and some of the doors that allowed a person outside to look into the room.
As you say, the basement was equipped with all manner of strange and bizarre and sinister equipment. There was a kiln. I think what you're referring to was a comment of one a workman who helped install it, you know, who said jocularly that it seemed like the kind of thing you'd find in a crematorium. There are various vats that
could contain acid. There was an operating table, you know, the basement the cellar of the castle, as more than one observer commented, you know, resembled something like a medieval torture chamber more than a conventional seller in an office building. So yeah, you know, the castle again, once the authorities ultimately entered in and began exploring it, you know, just seemed like something out of you know, a gothic horror novel.
So yeah, you talk about something that's important in this story as this incredible walk in vault that he never pays for. They try to confiscate, but he claimed he threatens to assume him if he destroy his building taking it out of there, so it stays and it becomes his favorite instrument of torture.
Yeah. Well, he had this vault installed and then he built the room around it and you know, left the door too small for the vault to be removed. So when he neglected to pay for it and the company threatened to take it out, you know, he said, you sure, go ahead, but if you do any damage to my building,
I'm going to sue you. So it ended up just staying there, and there's various evidence that you know, he ended up using it again as a torture chamber in which he would immure his victim and allowed them slowly to starve and suffocate to death while he listened, you know, to their frantic efforts to break out.
What we didn't talk about yet is that the reason, the business reason, the more than business reason for this was the Chicago Worldfare. Being business savvy, H. Holmes decided to build this structure so he had again, like you say, hotel type rooms when this exposition happened for six months in Chicago before that, when the crowds were really receptive to the building itself and what the enterprising nature of
this guy they thought. Tell us about about renting those rooms during that time, well.
You know, room sort of premium that anybody who had a spare room could make some money renting it out. Homes did evidently use his castle to be a World's Fair hotel. I'm going to say something now that might disappoint some of your listeners and yourself as well, which is, you know, it's not as you know, there are many, many, many, many stories and myths about H. H. Holmes, some of which you know, I think my own book helped to perpetuate. You know, it's not at all clear to me how
many fair goers met fair ends at Holmes's Castle. You know, they're all there are all kinds of rumors and stories, so so you know, I I don't feel in highly comfortable making any claims about that. I tend to think that probably far fewer, if any, fair goers were murdered at the castle, partly because you know, in my various researchers research, as you know, I didn't really come across a lot of cases of people reporting their relatives missing
who had gone to the World's Fair. You know, there's no doubt that homes killed people in the Murder Castle. I mean, that's absolutely true. But how many World's Fair goers ended up being victims there, you know, it is a very very open question.
So yeah, I mean we don't need numbers. I mean the horror itself of the potential for this guy to be able to kill anybody, drop them down on a shoe, gass him in the room. Yeah, and he wanted to take advantage and steal from people. That's throughout this book. He's primarily a thief, if nothing else at well, first and foremost a thief.
Absolutely that's absolutely true, and you know it's entirely possible. But you know, some of these stories that two hundred people met their death their I mean, you know a lot of those things are very very exaggerated. But you're completely right that you know that the castle was was you know, partly constructed, you know, to be a kind of death factory, no question about that.
Yeah, incredible. Now we get back to the charming j Holmes and he meets this Julius smythe who's eighteen and you say, you write, strikingly, strikingly beautiful. He's married to a man maker, itchlis Ned, and he's a watchmaker of the little business. Tell us how it comes to be that they meet and have an affair, have a relationship.
Well, I mean her husband, you know, became aware of the availability of a place for a jewelry shop and in the in the first floor of the Castle Homes, who was much taken with Julia's attractiveness, you know, is happy to happy to have happy to have them move into the space homes in very short order, had seduced Julia Ned. You know, by all accounts, was you know, a sweet but ineffectual human being and not a very
good provider. You know, Homes again was this dynamic, charismatic figure who never had any trouble seducing and winning over women. So yeah, Julia became his mistress. You know, everybody in the neighborhood seemed to be aware of that, except for Ned, who was either willfully blind or just sort of totally oblivious, although even he finally caught on and he left in short order. So yeah, Julia became Holmes's mistress. She had
a daughter named Pearl. She and Pearl moved into the castle, and she became pregnant by Holmes and demanded that Holmes marry her, and Holmes agreed, but on the condition that she allow him to perform an abortion on her, because
he didn't want another child. So she agreed, and evidently, I mean, all the evidence suggests, you know, that Holmes murdered her, murdered the child, Pearl, and then stripped her corpse of all its flesh and had her skeleton mounted by some guy he knew who had been a workman, a guy named Chappelle who had been a workman for him and who knew something about mounting skeletons. And then Homes made a little extra money by selling the mounted skeleton of his ex lover to a medical school.
Yeah, and this all occurred on Christmas Eve when they were planning to do the abortion by himself. Yeah, incredible. I have a height of evil. It's amazing. Now he's always coming up with scams and schemes and he continues with that, but he's also in pursuit of young, beautiful women. So he bumps into somebody who he meets Emmeline Segriint and.
She's twenty four.
And he meets people that are women that are innocent. He meets women like Julia that was more ambitious and less naive and threatening. But he meets this innocent woman, uh or part part of me, Piezzel type. Pizel meets Emily Sagrin And so how does Holmes get involved in there? And what ensues?
Well, yeah, I mean Pizel had gone off to one of these There was something called a gold cure for alcoholism back then, which was obviously this quack science, but you know, people people believed in it back then, and
Holmes went off to one of these Kihley institutes. Kighley was a doctor who excuse me, who had invented the supposed cure, and that's where he met Emily Segrand too, I think, was working as a type astir secretary there, and he came back raving about her beauty, and Homes brought her to Chicago, you know, lourded to Chicago with this offer to come work for him, and again, you know, she very quickly fell under his his spell and became his lover, and then again within a short order, Homes
you know, decided to dispose of her, you know, Homes after he was caught, you know, became known as this bluebeard killer because one of his most striking characteristics, you know, was this tendency to seduce and then murder, as you were suggesting, you know, a whole string of young women, and Holmes was somebody who, on the one hand, was doing this as many blue beard killers do. Well, it
was really all blue beard serial killers. You know, they usually do it out of combination of profit and sexual sadism. You know, if Holmes could make some money off of one of his victims, either by you know, marrying them or getting engaged them and having them sign over all their property to him, or take out a life insurance and make him the beneficiary.
You know that.
You know that was great. And then you know, if he could derive some intense, sadistic sexual pleasure from slowly killing them, you know that was that was another there was another benefit to his crimes.
What I found was profound is again he uses the walk in vault. Yeah, just before we go to talk about the sponsor for tonight's program, tell us about this again, this devious and what he does as a result of this, again, this sadistic nature. What does he do as a result of this enjoyment of the walk in vault scam?
Well? Uh, I mean are you referring Well again, he lures Emmeline into the vault, locks her in, and then spends time listening to her horrible shrieks. Uh, and you know all the agony that she's going through, you know, while he is pleasuring himself. If that is what you are referring to. Yeah, but again you know that, you know this characteristic of serial murders. You know, there are a lot of definitions of serial murder. Some people talk
about it just in terms of quantity. You know, if you kill x number of people, your serial murder.
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But you know, I mean mob hitman. Aren't serial murders, you know, serial murder in my understanding of it, and I think Holmes fits his profile, you know, is what
used to be called lust murder. And when you think of all the people we think of as these classic serial killers Gacy and Dahmer and Bundy and the night Stalker, and you know, going back to the nineteen thirties, like you know, the the Weimar era as serial killers, you know, they're all extreme sexual status, you know, who derive their highest form of sexual ecstasy, you know, from tormenting and torturing other human beings, you know, and Holmes clearly was,
you know, fit that profile absolutely.
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just destroyed a couple young women. Does he do next?
Well, you know, at some point again you know, homes because he never paid any of his bills, had built up this incredible army of creditors. At some point, things were getting very very hot for him in Chicago, I mean in terms of the women that he murdered. He did get engaged to an heiress named Minnie Williams who had all this property in Texas that Holmes persuaded her to sign over to him before he murdered her and her sister who had come for a visit. So again
Holmes had murdered a whole bunch of women. Holmes had recently again gotten bigamously married, or well, had pretended to get married. He led many Williams to believe that they were going to get married. But then hers I said, before that happened, and became the beneficiary of this property. So he and but with all these creditors closing in on him and some of the relatives of the women that he killed, beginning to wonder what had happened to
these young women. He decided that things had gotten too hot for him in Chicago, so he absconded with Pizel, and they first went to Fort Worth, Texas, ran some scams there, apparently got involved in some horse stealing enterprise and had to get out of there barely escaped with their lives, and then made their way back east where they were going to pull off a scam, an insurance scam that Holmes had contrived.
Yeah, you talk about this, an incredible plan with Pizel to do an insurance scam to fake his death. But at some point Holmes is arrested and meet in jail an infamous train robber, according to the papers, Marian Hedgepeth. So tell us about this faithful meeting and then we can talk about this fantastic and unbelievable death insurance. Yeah.
Well, you need to talk about the scheme scam a little bit first to put the meeting with Hedgepeth in context. So this is something that presumably Holmes had done before
when he was a medical student in Michigan. You know, the idea was that they were going to ensure Pizel's life for ten thousand dollars, which, of course, back then was an enormous sum of money, and they would fake Pizel's death and Homes would obtain a corpse from one of his various medical connections, and they would substitute this corpse for Pizel and then collect on the money Pisel. You know, they would take out this insurance on Pizel and make Homes, Pisel's wife the beneficiary carry and.
And so.
Yeah. So that was the plan, but in order to accomplish it, they needed the participation of a shady lawyer. So Holmes was in Saint Louis with the woman he was at that point weed to and found himself in jail with this very, very notorious outlaw named Marion Hedgepath, who at the time, you know, was you know, basically as infamous as somebody like Jess James. You know, he's been totally totally forgotten. I mean, I think one of the reasons I speculate is because his name is so
un memorable. But in any case, you know, somehow, I think Holmes was very impressed by Hedgepath's owned criminal celebrity and shared this plan with Hedgepeth and also asked Hedgepeth if he knew of any lawyer who might be interested in coming in on this scheme. And Hedgepeth, in fact, did he knew a guy named a young guy named Jeff the Howe who is a very very unscrupulous young lawyer. So yeah, So, so Holmes enlisted Jeff the Howe to
be part of this insurance scheme. And then Holmes and Pizel made their way to Philadelphia where they were going to pull office con And they chose Philadelphia partly because it was the home of the insurance company that had issued the insurance on Pizel's life, and they thought it would just be easier ultimately to resolve the whole thing there.
So tell us how this plan evolves here. They do have Carrie involved in this. She knows, she doesn't want to know, but she knows what's going on. But she's leary of j Holmes to a certain degree. She hasn't seen them that many times, but she's still leary of them. So tell audience more of this plan that a lot of people, including Pizel himself, has to accept as going to happen, Yeah, by virtual of J. Holmes.
Yeah, well again, you know, the plan was, and as you say, Piitzel how to share it with Carrie for a number of reasons. I mean, she was going to ultimately be part of it. And also he wanted to reassure her that if she read of his death in the newspapers, that you know, not to be concerned because it wasn't really him. So again, the plan was, Pizel
takes that ten thousand dollars on his life. Carrie is the beneficiary technically, although of course Holmes plans to relieve her of all the money when she gets her hands of it. The plan is that they would set Pizel up in some kind of little business in Philadelphia. They decide they'll set him up in a patent office, and they are going to stage some kind of accident that will make it seem as though Pizel has been killed, and it'll be an accident that will also leave Pizel figured.
And in the meanwhile, Holmes will get hold of some kind of medical school corpse cadaver, you know, from from one of his cohorts, and they will substitute that cadaver for Pizel, and then Pizel, you know, Carrie will come and collect on the insurance, and you know, Pizel will meanwhile have gone off somewhere, and you know, then they'll all get together and split the proceeds. You know, was the general plan. Again, Holmes had apparently pulled off some
kind of similar insurance scam one time before. However, what, of course Pizel doesn't know, and of course Carrie doesn't know, nobody knows really except Holmes, is that Holmes has no intention of getting a corpse to substitute for Piesel. He intends to kill Pizel and then collect on the money.
Now, if that's not the worst thing you ever heard. She also have three children, and so to be able to split up the children, yeah, and take the children from the mother, the willing her, this untrusting woman to give up her children. What's the bruise he gives to her for the reason they need to split up with the children, and then tell her.
Well, you know that's yeah, as you said, I mean, that's really the worst for me, you know, the most horrific part of the whole home story. Yeah, So Holme's murders Pizel and you know, burns his face and you know, tries to disfigure him. He then shows up, well, he has been in Philadelphia, shows up at the office of the insurance company, identifying himself as a friend of Pithel. Somebody who can help I Pithel at that point was going under a pseudonym home shows up, you know, an
acquaintance of Pithels. He's going to be very very helpful to the insurance company and helping them identify this person. Meanwhile, he goes back to Saint Louis, tells Carrie, you know, who has read about the presumed death of her husband in the newspapers. You know, not to worry. It's not really Ben. Ben is fine. He needs to take one of their oldest child or second oldest child, I think, back to Philadelphia to help identify the body. And he's going to take a of other kids with him to
keep her company. Anyway, as you said, over the next few months, once Holmes has collected all the money, he takes these three Piesel children with him of this incredibly tortuous odyssey. And meanwhile, he keeps Carrie completely separate from her children. He's promising Carrie that he's going to reunite her with Ben and the other kids. But he's constantly keeping her on the move. He has the three kids in his possession that he keeps constantly on the move.
At that point, he had basically decided that he was going to kill the entire Pisol family, and and he was. He was creating a kind of a trail that nobody he thought could possibly ever trace. And every time he promised Carrie that she was about to be reunited with her husband and children, he would come up with some excuse why they couldn't get together there or then, and that they had to keep moving, and so on and
so forth. And in the course of this odyssey, and again this was the most heinous of all of Holmes's crimes, he ended up murdering the three Pithel children that were in his charge. All the while, again you know, telling Carrie that the kids were fine, she was going to be reunited with them in any minute. You know, Ben was fine, she was going to be reunited with her husband.
Of course he was long dead and buried. And then Holmes actually made an effort to kill Carrie and her one remaining child by leaving some nitro glycerin in a jar in her possession, which he had asked her to move with the expectation that it would blow her up. But through a variety of circumstances that didn't happen.
You're right. At the same time that luck seems to be changing for the worst for aj Cholms and somebody named Gary who's the chief investigator. He always remained vicious even though his company paid out the claim. And this is a fidelity mutual. So he started his career as a cop, as you write. So he starts poking around and wants to speak with his lawyer. So tell us about how that develops.
Yeah, well, there was one insurance investigator, as you said, that remained, you know, that remained very, very skeptical. But across the turning point for Holmes came when Marion hedgepath I read about the death of Pizel in the newspapers, and he realized that this former cell made of his homes had actually gone ahead and pulled off this scam.
You know, I don't know if I I don't know if I mentioned it in my book, probably not, But it's a little bit like you know what finally led to the arrest of of the two guys in in Cold Blood. You know, one of the cellmates, you know, knew about this scheme, and you know that, you know that one of the in Cold Blood killers, Dick Hickock, you know, he was always talking about never really thought he was serious, and you know, then read about the
death of the Clutters. You know, something very similar happened here. Marion Hedge Peth, you know, just thought this guy Holmes was full of hot air, and then he reads about you know this, you know this, this supposed accident in Philadelphia and paying out of all this insurance and you know, he realized that it was H. H. Holmes, and you know, he contacts the insurance company again for the same reason that the guy in called Blood did, hoping to get
some kind of clemency. So yeah, so that's when that's when the authorities, you know, get on Holmes's trail.
It's interesting that you talk about the Pinkerton's getting on his trail and begin hunting him.
Yeah. Yeah, And the Pinkertons finally track him down just before he's about to leave the country and put him under arrest. And of course Holmes thinks that he is, you know, just being arrested for this insurance scam. So you know, he's very cool and you know, and pulls out all his charm and so on and so forth.
You know.
But but it quickly becomes, well it before too long, becomes very very clear to Holmes that you know, what the authorities really believe is true and why he is really now in custody is because they suspect correctly as it turns out, you know, that he has done away with the pipes of children, and they put one of their ace detectives, a got named Guyer, on the trail of the children.
Now you talk about also he is arrested. How long does it take for the media to go ob on to elements of the.
Story, Well, I mean the media, you know, you know, immediately in Chicago they start looking into homes' background and before too long, you know, they're hearing all kinds of dark rumors about the castle, and they you know, enter into the castle and it's then they discover all of its most bizarre and sinister features.
Uh.
And you know, within very very short time, the you know, the castle, all these newspaper articles about this Gothic castle of horrors that exists in Englewood. You know, start to dominate the newspapers, you know, and homes, you know, starts to become portrayed as this figure of larger than life evil.
As opposed to what he does at the end. Well later, anyway, how does he proceed in terms of innocence or owning up to crimes, giving authorities any kind of real information? How does he how does he work there?
Well? I mean, you know, he he he, He confesses, you know, to the most minor crimes that he can possibly infested, you know, and each time the authorities present him with some overwhelming evidence that he had committed something more serious, you know, he might admit to it, but come up with some excuse to mitigate his guilt. You know, Holmes was very very sharp, very very clever. You know, he would constantly come up with stories that you know, he had farmed out the Pizel kids, you know, to
various people he knew, and they were fine. And you know, he denied at first that Pizzel was dead, but then when confronted with the incontrovertible evidence that the corpse in Philadelphia really was Ben Pizel, you know, he claimed that Pizel had actually committed suicide. You know, so he was very very very slippery about things for a very long time.
Sure, now you talk about that they had some evidence. Obviously they found a job born in the incinerator, in the crematorium, in the kilns. There was some evidence. And again you talk about him making retractions from himself. Those story keeps changing. Tell us about a couple of the features briefly that dominated that trial, some fascinating things that the prosecutor brought forth at court. Tell us a little bit about.
That, well, I mean, the main feature of the trial that was so fascinating. And here again, you know, this is very very similar to Ted Bundy, is you know, Holmes decided at some point to represent himself and he really did for a little while a very very impressive job.
But again, as with Ted Bundy, you know, Holmes ultimately ended up proving the maxim You know that, you know, the defendant who decides to represent himself as a fool for a client because he very very very quickly became came to the limit of his you know, of his of his medical of his medical knowledge. In terms of the prosecutor's evidence, You're going to have to prod my memory a little bit because I'm not entirely sure what you have in mind.
Well, it was just that they brought skulls into the right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yes, that made a very very large impression on the juror, on the jurors. I mean that's something that you know, one has read about in other trials too, And yeah, bringing bringing human remains of victims to show the jury always has a lot of impact.
Sure, certainly, And of course the media was in a friend over this. However, as you say, a few months later, you know, you say, it's not he had Holmes had lots to say, something to say the day his trial ended, but was not his final word. And you say a few months later he would issue a very different statement and its publication would send shockwaves across America.
Right, yeah, Well, you know, at the time, I think when I wrote the book, you know, and this has become something of a cliche to say, but you know, but it really was, you know, like the O. J. Simpson trial of its time, you know, was covered so extensively in the national press. You know, I mean the only difference again between then and now is they didn't have cable TV. But you know, if they had it would have been twenty four to seven news coverage. But Holmes.
But you know, once Holmes was convicted and sentenced to death and had nothing more to lose, he was persuaded to write a confession. Again, you know, very hard to know how much of it was accurate, how much of it was embroidered. I mean, some of it certainly was embroidered, because some of the victims that he claimed to have
killed later showed up alive. But you know, partly to satisfy the audience he had been paid a fairly sizable amount of money to address, you know, and again partly because as is not a typical with serial murderers, you know, he you know, he wanted to be remembered, you know,
as one of the greatest criminals of the age. He wrote a confession in which he claimed to have murdered twenty seven people altogether, certainly would have made him, at the time the most prolific serial murderer in American history, and you know, far out stripping you know, the number of tracks the rippers victims.
What people may not know too, and what I would found shocking when I first read any of what was written by Holmes was how eloquent and articulate, how good a writer he was. And and when you talk about you know, you don't know the veracity or the accurateness of some of the claims because you say some people were walking around. Yes, it certainly is very very believable, and it would be no reason not to believe his his attitude towards the murders and these crimes.
Yeah. Well, you know, Holmes was a very educated man, and so and sense the literacy of this confession is not surprising. You know, one also doesn't know if there was some meditorial hand at work, but in any case, well, in general, people were more literate back then. You know, you know, you read the letters of even somebody like Pizel, who is just sort of a common labor and you know, they're like way more illiterate than like what most of
my freshman composition students are capable of writing nowadays. So
you know, so in that sense, it's not surprising. But yes, as you say, you know, the attitude that Homes displays, you know, very very typical of serial killers who you know, have this megalomaniac streak to them, and you know, and they and they really you know, They really derive a lot of gratification from you know, from the you know, when they're finally caught, and sometimes even before they're caught, you know, from having the spotlight placed on them, you know,
and from having the world see them as these you know, as these notorious figures. I mean, you know, these infamous figures, these figures who are going to you know, as Holmes has, you know, go down in history. Really you know, they you know, they get a lot of pleasure from that, and you know, sometimes there's a kind of competition, you know,
there's a kind of rivalry. You know, there are people who you know, want to be remembered as being even more evil, you know than the last infamous serial killers.
So, oh yeah, absolutely, what he does I'll ask you to tell our audience what he does resort to Because the biggest boogeyman of the time and still to a certain degree, but especially at that time, was the specter that crimes could be attributed attributed to possession or something. So in that vein, what does Holmes do in his.
Well, I meat, he claims, you know that the devil was in him. If that's I assume that's what you're referring to right. Sure, you know, again hard to know how sincerely he believed that, and how much he was playing to his audience or in a way how much you know the thing partly the thing about Holmes also is that, I mean, the media was also using him for variety of purposes, as the media tends to do.
You know, they were using him to sell newspapers obviously, But you know, there's often how shall I say it, You know, sometimes it's a kind of often a kind of you know, hypocrisy that's work in the popular media in the sense that you know, they you know, they want to they want to titillate the audience with all this lurid, sensationalistic stuff, you know, but they do it often under the guise of moral edification or moral instruction. So you know, they're they're both you know, having their
cake and eating it too. You know, they're getting to exploit all these horrible crimes of homes well the same time, you know, presenting him as somebody who was in the grip of the devil. Uh and you know, sort of a moral religious lesson there, you know, about what can happen to a human being who falls too far strays
too far from the path of righteousness. So so again you know that statement of homes, you know, very very striking, but again hard to know how much he really believed that, how much again that was put in there or suggested to him or whatever.
The sum that he was paid was very handsome, some like you say, for the time especially, wasn't it seventy five dollars something significant like that?
Yeah, yeah, well, you know I believe was a Hearst newspaper that published was confession. And yeah, it was very very typical. I mean since I you know, I've written a lot of true crime. This was my third true crime book, and I've written many since then. And what I have discovered since was it was very very typical of Hurst and other and Pulletzer too, his main competitor in in you know this yellow Press wars as they
called it back then. You know, whenever there was a very very sensational murder case to pay you know, the killer once they were caught for confession. Sometimes the confessions were just concocted, you know, by one of the you know, Hurst writers, and you know the guy you know, the the criminal mail or email you know, would sign his name to it or authenticate it. I think probably Holme's case, he did write it himself for the most part.
M yeah, he was set for execution. Was there anything particularly out of the ordinary.
On that d.
You'll have to tell me what you have in mind. I mean, the main thing you know about Holmes' execution, you know, is his stipulation, you know, that his corpse be interred, you know, within a concrete fault that would make it inaccessible to grave robbers, which is very very interesting. I think there was a sign of several things. One was the recognition of his own notoriety. You know, it was a time when there was a time when you know, these dime no dime museums, you know, would attract customers
by having body parts of notorious murderers. So homes might have, you know, worried about that, you know, as somebody who had made use of corpses himself throughout his career, you know, homes you know, probably didn't want to end up, you know, in that way either. So I don't know if that's what you're referring to in terms of yes, I was.
I mean, that's yeah, incredibly incredibly unique.
Well, I'm sorry, ahead.
What I was. What we talked about too, is the the idea of the AJH. Holmes was dominated and and uh, you know, wagged the dog basically put forth the you know, made money for these papers and drove the industry at that time, and then these names disappear, I.
Mean, and so yeah, well it was very interesting to me at the time, the fact I have a little you know, PostScript at the end of my book, you know, speculating about why Holmes had been you know, forgotten, whereas somebody like Lizzie Borden, let's say, you know, had remained a mythic figure, you know. And obviously, as you say, I mean, now you know, Holmes has come, you know, Holmes come back. He's you know, he's a big thing.
Although I think, you know, I think at the time, you know, Homes, I think one of the reasons Homes was so incredibly notorious to at the time of his crimes was because he embodied the shadow side, the dark underside of the era in which he lived, you know, which was this late nineteenth century Gilded Age where there was this you know, mania for money getting, you know, and Homes seemed like the personification of that of that you know, desire, you know, taken to this pathological extreme,
so you know, and the serial sexual part of the crimes, you know, was something I don't even think his contemper has really noticed so much, you know, because even when they spoke about him as a Bluebeard, it was more like, you know, yeah, he was killing this woman for his money.
You know.
It wasn't until our own age, you know, when we you know, became back in the eighties and nineties and so on and so forth, you know, much more conscious of serial murder as a you know, kind of form of sexual sadism and sexual homicide. You know, if you know the nature of home, this other aspect of Holmes's crimes,
you know, became very very apparent. So I think for a long time he was forgotten, you know, because to some extent, if he was remembered at all, you know, hate to use the word, but it was almost like they're kind of quaint Victorian kind of thing, you know, where's the sky was killing women for money. So anyway, that's my theory.
Well, what I mentioned is that I found it interesting too, is that Martin Martin Sorcese's project, the next big project, you know, the leading men in Hollywood. Leonardo DiCaprio will bring Jhilmes to the big screen. And I've been telling a couple of people again, So the people that refuse to read books and won't want to find out about this story, I think, will we'll get it through that
via that route. I think it'll be a big movie, and I think it will be I think will people uncover and discover how incredible this story is.
It really is, And.
I don't even think that anybody even really capitalized on this story and took it to a fictional end. And it's good because they haven't, you know, taken it and done it and redone it so many times. So I think it's still the story still intact, hasn't had that Hollywood fictionalization yet. So hopefully they'll retain as much of the story, because who needs to fictionalize a story about AJH Holmes?
Certainly, Yeah, well, the Scarsese book isn't Scarceise movies based on Eric Larson Steven in the White City, so you know it's not going to be presumably fictionalized. You know the thing that Larson did, you know was a wed the home story to the story of Daniel Burnham, you know, the guy the architect of the World's Fair. So if you read Devil White City, you know it alternates between the two, you know, and that was a very very sort of clever thing to do, partly because it gave
a sort of cultural cachet to the home story. So, I mean, I'm curious to know what proportion of the Scorsese movie will be devoted to Daniel Burnham, what to H. H. Holmes. I mean, I'm assuming that it won't be just a flat out a true crime movie about Holmes. I mean, maybe it will be, but I mean, if it is, it won't be true to Larson's book. So anyway, I have to.
See, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You said this was your third book, and you've gone on to write i know, probably over twenty What did you learn that you used in other books from this very very prolific and unique and incredibly how he seems to have combined a lot of aspects of serial murder way way way before this time without any other influence. It would seem.
Not entirely sure what you're asking. I mean, you know, one of the things that I learned in writing the book, just in terms of writing books like this. You know, again, the challenge for me as a writer of historical true crime books, you know, is to take mountains of you know, dry documents, old newspapers and you know sometimes you know, in trial transcripts and you know, police accounts and so on and so forth, you know, and turn it into
a gripping, compelling, hopefully page turning narrative. And I think the Homes Book was you know, important to me in that sense because you know, the way I structured it in order to maintain you know, narrative drive and suspense and shock and so on and so forth. You know, that was very helpful to me in writing subsequent books. You know, it was useful to me. I mean, the first two books I wrote before this book, you know, one was a game book that was in the that
was in the set in the nineteen fifties. The book on Albert Fish was set in the nineteen thirties. So the Homes Book was the first book I wrote, you know, going back into the eighteen hundreds. So of course one of the things I learned is that there were serial killers, you know, back in the eighteen hundreds, you know, and of course that ultimately led me to you know, my first two books. I don't think the book on Yen, in the book on Fish, I don't even think I
used the term serial murder. As I said, I didn't even think of myself as writing true crime back then. You know. The Homes book was the first book I wrote that I thought of this person as a serial murderer, and it kind of led me to really immerse myself in the whole history of serial murder. And you know, what I ultimately discovered was that it's you know, because wave, they're back from the eighteen hundreds. In fact, it's probably been a feature of human culture since there were human beings.
Probably even our pre human ancestors, you know, committed crimes like that, or committed acts like that, they wouldn't have been considered crimes. So yeah, I mean, and asked your question, I mean, it was, you know, a book that I first really began learning a lot about the phenomenon of serial murder.
Yeah, well, I just I could just imagine the effect. I mean, you did work on ed Gain, like you say, and Albert Fish, and that most people need a mental shower after doing any projects like that, And then you get to a j Chilms was I just think is the most fascinating killer of all time. I just I can't believe that I didn't know about this for so many years. So thanks to you in this book Depraved, and thank you very much Errol for coming on and
talking about this. For those that might want to look at your work or do you have a Facebook page website, tell us about that.
Yeah, there's a website, Harold Checkter dot com. There is. I'm not a Facebook person, but you do have a Facebook page that people can communicate with me through. Yeah, and books you know, available on Amazon. So yes, and thank you very much for having me on again. It's always a pleasure.
It's always a pleasure, Harold. Thank you very much, and you have a great evening, and I know I will be talking to you again real soon. Thank you. Connect