DEFENDING A SERIAL KILLER-Jim Potts

eighty two. Jim Potts, a brilliant, idealistic African American law student, is honored when one of his professors recruits him to assist in writing a death penalty appeal on behalf of a serial killer. Potts discovers a loophole in the case that somehow had been overlooked, one that could not only get Matson off death row, but once presented to the Supreme Court of California could release him to rape and murder again. When Potts confides in his pregnant wife, she says,

if Matson goes free, their marriage is over. But if Potts quits the case or withholds information, he violates his duty to client and constitution and risks his career before it even begins. A moral dilemma with no good way out. To avoid losing his family and releasing pure evil back into the world, Potts must be smarter than his options. He must find a way to keep his family together,

fulfill his duties, and keep Mattson behind bars. But can he The book we're featuring this evening is defending a serial killer the right to counsel, with my special guest, attorney and author Jim Potts. Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for this interview.

Some people say that he because of the fact that he was abused by his stepfather, physically abused, that that had a definite impact on him without a doubt. So at a very early age, he was using drugs and that was part of the problem. He would he would he would drink a case of beer and you're talking about in his teens as an example, and he would get into all kinds of these different drugs that you know,

we hallucinate things of that nature. So his childhood was a definite factor in my opinion in terms of who he turned out to be. And even even the court appointings psychologist related back to the same time frame that he may have been impacted mentally because of the way that he was abused and the things that he saw because he not only he was not only abused, but his mother was abused by this by this person as well.

So those are factors for him. But his mother started noticing things about him as well, with him wearing female clothing as an example, one time she caught him in a field and he was wearing a dress and other things that he would do that you know, that concerned her. He had this one episode where he had a young friend of his where he actually made the kids strip down with the kid and stuck a broomstick up his rear,

you know, things of that nature. And so again this was at a very very young age, made the kid walk home like that. You know. What was interesting is what I didn't find was what the parents of that child even did have they reacted to any of that. Unfortunately, I don't have that His mother was the one that related the information from that perspective in terms of what happened. So he just developed, in my opinion, into this monster.

And I think it really did start with the abuseity you know that he received as well as the abuse that he saw. Now, he may have used alcohol and drugs as an escape in my opinion, but I think those things eventually overtook him. So he as he moved along,

he ended up going into service. He was up in Oregon, and when he was up there, he basically went awol and while he was while he was away when he wasn't supposed to be, he actually kidnapped this young lady and her brother, both of them, and as a result of that he was convicted raped her, robbed her, basically made the brother leaves and drove off in the car and took her to a secluded place. So he eventually

got caught and he had to do time for that crime. Obviously, now the purpose people argue that the purpose of you know, then go to jail, you're supposed to rehabilitate, etc. But the sad part in his particular case was that he didn't rehabilitate because is what he did was in his mind, he developed this attitude that in the future, if he in fact engages in the same behavior which he intended to do, then he would kill his victims so that the victims could not come back and testify against him.

And that's the sad part about this with him, is that his mind, in my opinion, was so demented at that time that it was just a matter of time when he would go even further and include murder in his actions. So I hope that answered your basic question on him.

think that that psychologically damaged him and that's why he hated He hated women. But you know the odd part about that then, is that if he hated women so much, why did he dress in women's clothes. I mean, even when he got captured, there were female there was female attire in the car, and the mother when the police officers called her. She told them, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, there would be women's clothes in his car because she knows that he dresses women. So think about that for

a second. Where's the conflict there? It just at once again it is the point that proves that he was just so mentally scrambled, so to speak, that he turned into this monster. Because if he hated women, why would you dress as a woman. You have to wonder.

was missing. Let's start off with that was missing, and that it was a man hunt that was going on. Ellie County Sheriff's Department was handling that, and you know, they were talking about the fact that this little girl I was missing from the from the community park that she and her sibling was at and everybody's looking for it basically, and she was only nine years old. So as you as you can imagine, you got a nine

year old is missing. And these days it doesn't matter whether they're nine or whatever the age is, people are going to try to do a manhut. They go door to door and they start searching. So La County Sheriff's apartment was on the news talking about that we had a nine year old girl missing and they wanted to put the information out there. Have you know, have you seen her? I think we've all seen those types of newscasts even today. You see him sure from time to time.

So that caught our attention. Now it's at first it was just a little girl missing, which is always a sad situation. They suspected something was going on, but they did they did not know. And then I believe it was the maintenance person who said that he that he had seen this particular vehicle okay, and that he thinks that the girl may have gotten into the vehicle, which is even worse at that point because then it turns it turned from a missing child to a kidnapped missing child,

and that makes a big difference. So that's what happened. So of course we discussed it. I mean, people, you know, you're laying there and it's, oh my god, nine year old girl missing, possibly abducted, and those kind of things will always you know, you know, make the normal civil person very upset. I think I mentioned in the book. I'm time to remember if I mentioned in the book or not about the fact that the same child that

Betty was pregnant with, that's that's my oldest son. Now he was almost subductive out of the grocery store, so you know years later, No, it wasn't even years later. It would have been it would have been roughly after he was born, probably a year and a half, maybe two years old. He was sitting in the grocery car right there was a baby, and Betty had left the cart there, walked down the eye you know how you walked down the aisle because you looking for something up

on the shelf. And she turned around and this individual had lifted him up out of the cart, and she started screaming and everything. He sent him Backdannel Len out of the store. So abductions are really something that's almost apparent's nightmare. That was the situation with this child.

only nine years old, so that was very upsetting. Equal matter immediately was was was spotted on her on her rear, and so they know that it was a situation where she had been brutally murdered and also sodomized as well. Mm hmm.

you know, what he had done. So then the gears switched, let's put it that way. So then the investigation opened up, and too not long the death, but several other deaths, so they know they had to go to Nevada to do this. But then I'm sure we're going to get into what happened all out there because those were part of the problems that created the dilemma, so to speak, things that I had found out.

Cheryl was upset because she wanted to go home. They were at the park, they were swimming, they were all having a good time, but she wanted to go home or something was not ready to go home yet, so she was upset and Michael Mattson saw something that was going on because she was crying and basically lured over to the car and then told her he could take her home, so she got into the car. The other

one's the same thing. The only ones who didn't voluntarily get to the car was the last person, which we'll get to because she was in the batter And so luring people in people telling their children don't hitchhike is always it's always a message that they need to do. So the investigation to answer your question, you want to know specifically on the investigation that would have taken place in Nevada. So do you want me to switch gears and go into Nevada and to the investigation of what happened?

taking her and dropping her back off. So he realized afterwards, now he has left a victim alive that could describe him in his vehicle, etc. So he takes off and goes to Nevada. So he gets to Nevada, but he doesn't really have that much money. He gets on the spur of the moment, decided he better leave, so he drives to North Las Vegas, where he's just about running out of gas. So he goes to the local junior

college there and by that time it's at night. So it's what happened was he spotted a female student going to her car and he basically a gunpoint forced her into the car because he wanted some money the gas. What she didn't know is that the gun was actually a BB gun. It wasn't a real gun. It was a BB gun. But she don't know that it's at night, it's a gun. Get in the car and that's what she jared, so force us into the car. He knows

that he doesn't have a gat. He takes us to the secluded area and uh basically rapes her, but he doesn't have gas, so they go back to the gas station. They go back to a gas station, and at the gas station, she figures out that she's got to get away. This is her opportunity, and when he's out there, out of the out of the car, she basically jumps out and and runs into the station and tells the attendant what's going on. So of course they call the police.

Pat Dingle was a detective at the North Las Vegas Police Department, so he gets to call at night and he goes up there and he starts looking around, and of course he finds you know, the you know the car, and he starts investigating the car, but he's still not sure of what's going on. To make a long story short, it's at night. He goes back, but then the victim ends up going to the hospital and they end up calling, and so he's able to interview, et cetera, et cetera,

et cetera. So they put the word out on the vehicle licens plate. The vehicle license plate is to California and comes back under Michael b Massive, but he's not equating that with anything going on in California. Of course, he's just equating it to this particular situation with this victim in North Las Vegas. So he puts out on the teletype because it's too late at that point to call California. So he puts out on the teletype description

of what happened, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He ends up getting a call from La County about this particular situation, and the investigators end up going out because again they're thinking he's the Hillside Triangle situation, right. But during this time, Pat Dingle's fingers out, Wait a minute, nothing's going on because Pat felt that this particular individual, you know, there's something going on with now, he's not in custody. It's just I'm sorry, I should back up.

He's not in custody yet, all right. So so even though the word was put out on the teletype and they got a call about it, they weren't going out there yet because Madson hadn't been captured. So Madson ends up going up to driving to because he had grandparents that lived in Eli. I guess that's type and EOI or Nevada. So the sheriff up there, Sheriff Robinson knew about a family that was in that particular area, because again, when you send out a teletype, it goes out all

across the country, as you can imagine. So they picked up on it and he goes to the grandparents' house. It just happened to, you know, knock on the door, say listen, we'll looking for Michael D. Madson. Would you happen to know him? Mean, while Matson had driven up there, and again it was still a gas issue. So he ends up going to his grandparents' house walking, you know,

gets to his grandparents house. So when sure Robinson got there, the grandparents came to the door and they said, you know Michael D. Manson And of course they looked at each other. Well yeah, that's how grand said. Well do you know where he is? Well, yeah, he's inside sleeping. So of course Robinson was shot because he got lucky at that point. He had to know from that perspective it's not always that easy, trust me when I tell you,

But you know what's he done now? I mean, so the grandparents even knew that he had a bad background, but that's still their grandson. They're not going to turn them away, and they don't know what he's done most recently. They only know what happened in Oregon. So Mason comes to the door and Robinson takes him into custody, takes him back to the station. Pat Dingle and his partner reed. They find out because Robinson calls and says, hey, I

got your guy in custody. Basically, so they drive up there and Pat told me, as soon as he looked at this individual, in his mind, this guy was pure evil. And again he did not fully know everything that Mason had done. He only knew about what happened with this

victim in North Las Vegas. Right on the ride back, he was in the back with Madson, and Pat told me this, and it just, you know, from my perspective, being with my background and even being a police officer that you know, I was a reserved police officer as well with Elie County Sheriff's Department, was it was just wrong. He confided it in me that he in fact had taken his gun and put it in Matson's mouth and you know, threatened him, et cetera. And that to me

was wrong. But again, nobody knew this at that time. This is information that came out way after his conviction. I'll get to write, you know a little bit later, but at any rate, he gets them out, and of course they they did read him as rights. They told him that, you know, he had to write domain found, etc. So they did what they were supposed to do from that standpoint. So to ride back from ELI was about

three hours. So they get back to North Las Vegas, and that's where things, in my opinion, started going to me. At that time, the knowledge that I had when I was doing the research where things started going a little strange because at the time of the appeal, I did not know that Pat had done that with the gun in the mouth, etc. I didn't find that out until you know, years later. Make a long story short, and

that was after the after the appeal. But what happened was Pat put the word out that he was in custody. Then as a result of that, he learns that match and may have involved in other crimes in California. And he had suspected that this guy's probably done something like this before. So now information is starting to come in. So Pat, in my opinion, starts looking at this like the highlight of his career. And in conversations that I had with it. Pat was a very unique person in

terms of his background. I mean, he became a detective at a very early age because he was just very good at what he did. And so he starts developing a relationship. So when you start talking about an investigation, at some point he's entitled to have counsel present during these kinds of conversations. Quote right, you know, investigation type of questions. Mason had already said that he wanted to talk to an attorney and that was not afforded to him.

At that point, Pat started developing a relationship with Madson. He started luring him. In my opinion, so you want to talk about a gamester, Pat at that point was becoming a gamester himself because he looked at Massive as purely evil. He wanted to make sure Masin was gonna end up getting convicted, and so he started doing things that police officers should not be doing because why he

got emotionally involved with the situation. And in my opinion, police officers cannot get emotionally involved with We're not the judging Jerick. Our job and his job was to arrest him. And yes, you can ask him questions, but he hasn't right to counsel and this is what this is all about. He would go and have Michael come into the interrogation room, give him coffee cigarettes. At one point he even promise

him some drugs. I mean, he was luring him into this false sense of security and that to me he

was wrong. But at any rate, he had put out that mass and custom for me, and you know, different agencies came out to talk to him, and again that's when Past started realizing it that he had really caught possibly a person that I don't want to say would enhance his career, but was probably like a career situation that everybody wants to get, you know, with somebody like this because it's a serial killer or whatever the case may be. Sure, and that's exactly what happened. I think

Pat let that go to his head. And again when they came out to interrogate him, he has a right to council. Now Pat had been in touch with the attorney which local public defender's office, and they said die go ahead and talked to him, which to me is wrong, but whatever it happened, so they would come out and they questioned him. They quickly realized during this investing part of the investigation that he was not the Hillshigh strangler.

What Mattson told them was, I could tell you about some things you know that I did that you don't even know about. And then of course your ears are going to perk up, well what are you talking about?

So that's when he turns around and basically, with all of this and with pat influences, et cetera, and luring him into a false sense of security, he basically tells them about the crimes and even draws a map for one of the for one of the victims where they can find so that that opened up the door to their being issues and his violation of his of his rights. I'm just going on. I don't know if you if you have questions in between any of this, because I'm kind of just moving forward with this.

has got this confession. You also, when when we talked about you hearing about this case of the Guetara's Cheryl Gatira is being killed and having that faithful conversation with your wife Betty, you now find out information about Mattson involved with this in another event where you're again this faithful intersection here where you come to be aware of this, and then you tell us how Ron Smith, you're a professor or law professor in law school, who had taken

you under a wing, gives you a call. So tell us about this event and the event where your professor calls you.

the California Supreme Court. So Ron calls me and says, hey, listen, would you be interested in working with me on this case? You know, on this appeal? And he is a law student. You jump at an opportunity like that, of course, I mean, you know you can practice law and never had you know, in a lifetime, and never have an opportunity like that. So I jumped at the opportunity without knowing all of the details, just the death pendly cases heading to the

United excuse me, to the California Supreme Court. So of course you're excited. So there was like four thousand pages of transcripts and exhibits, and uh So once I got those and I'm starting to go through those exhibits and the transcripts, etc. I realize what this guy has done because now it's in detail with all of these victims of what he actually did to them, etc. So I start having that conversation because you know, it's the taught conversations,

as they say. You know, my wife were talking about these things. I'm like, oh my god, let me tell you what this guy did, you know, And that's where the conflict started because at that point she's like, you know, wait a minute. You know you can't help somebody like this, you know. And then I started looking at my personal values versus my I mean, my yeah, my personal values, my moral values versus you know, the requirement that you have to represent to the best of your ability, so

the ethical responsibilities to a client. So that took some soul searching. I mean, I was an altar boy, I was an eagle scout and went to all the Catholic schools. I mean, this guy was everything that I wasn't. I mean, I was just the opposite. So when she put it in my mind about the fact that you can't represent somebody like this, I mean, it is something for you

to think about, you know. So while I was thinking about it, of course, I was still reading and doing some of the things that I had to do anyway, because I still had a responsibility to want. So eventually I had to tell I had to tell Betty that, well, you know, I've made a decision, and the decision is I'm going to go ahead and you know, assist Ron

in this in this particular case and this appeal. And that's when she really became upset because it was like, listen, you can't do this if that guy gets off with done and you know that's not something you want to hear, you expect. Well, you know, any any spouse, in my opinions, should always support another spouse and understanding what the implications of a comment like that may be. So then that's when the conflict sets in, you know, at a higher level.

And I had to just simply tell her, look, if I'm getting into this profession it's clear that you know, you can't get out of it just because you find the subject matter repugnant. And what I'm not going to do is be influenced, you know, one way or another, you know, regarding you know, career decisions. You know, we

had the conversation because your a spouse. We talk about these things, but you can't decide for me or force me to decide in a manner that's going to be contrary to a career that I'm getting ready to enter. So she obviously was unhappy about that. But then again, we didn't have the outcome yet. So it's if you know,

he gets off et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it's like, well, whatever the case may be, it's my job, working with Ron, to be able to look at all of the possibilities as to whether or not any of his rights were violated the case. Because at that point, keep in mind, Dan, he's he was a self confessed killer at that point, so it's not like we didn't have information as if you know, he got railroaded, you know, in the courtroom, so to speak. It wasn't like that.

I mean, you know, his confession got in basically, and that led towards, you know, toward him being convicted. So having said that, I'm going to move on with this, she was not happy. Things were a little bit strained, but the outcome wasn't there yet, so you know, things

settled to a certain extent anyway. So then I go through all of this and I'm looking and I'm reading the transcripts, I'm reading police reports, and when I'm reading the police reports and everything, I'm looking at the fact that he was given his rights at the time that he was picked up in Elie Nevader from Sheriff Robinson to three hour drive as I mentioned earlier, from Eli

back to North Las Vegas. So when they when Pat Dingo continued to ask him questions after they got back, that to me was problematic because that was going on before he had actually secured you know, proper counsel, which again was a public defender at that time. And I won't say anything negative about public defenders, Dan, you know.

I mean, they've got a list of cases that they have to handle, and it makes it very, very tough on them, but they still do a great job, in my opinion, es best as they can't anyway, so that to me was problematic, and I looked at that this some research on it, and then had a conversation with Ron. So I go to Ron and I said, Ron, you know I've concluded, you know, my thoughts on this. I look through everything. So Ron and I agreed to me.

So when we met, Ron was all excited because he had found an issue that they had read the wrong jury instruction, so that instead of Matson getting the death penalty, that Math should have gotten life and imprisonment without the possibility of parole. And I'm looking at Ron thinking to myself, Okay, why does he not see what I see here? He's talking about the wrong jury instruction. And when I'm looking at and reading is that his it's got violated under

the fifth and sixth Amendments. And you know, I'm looking at a bigger issue here. I was thinking maybe I missed the boat. So I get into this conversation with Ron about I said, Ron, I think there's another issue here, and He's like, what are you talking about? So I start relating some of the same facts I related to you, and I said, I think his rights have been violated under the fifth and sixth A Members and Ron was like, what, you're crazy. No, no, no, no, no, no, no no, no,

you know, and again I'm just a lawsuitent. So I argued it. So I ended up arguing it so hard, and Ron said, look, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll include your argument in the brief. Okay, Well, when Ron, actually, when we actually you know, you only have one hour to argue in front of the California Supreme Court. So Ron was arguing his issue for about the first ten minutes, and then the justice looked at him and said, you know, mister Smith, there's a bigger issue here than the wrong

jury instruction. So then he switched my issue for the last fifty minutes. And as a result of that, now I don't want to get into you don't want me to get into the conclusion.

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But what I'm also trying to get across in the book is that we have to leave the emotions out of the process. If you don't do that and you make the mistakes like Pat Dingle made because he got emotionally tied to this. Then is what ends up happening is that the criminal can actually get off, the criminal can actually walk, and then the victims' rights, okay, are gone. At that point. The victims need to be their rights

need to be protected as well. And when you get emotionally involved with this, and it's hard, and I get it. But police officers, judges, I want to say, the jury, but they do the juries. They do try to reach the emotions of the juries when they when they're trying to make a decision as well, and that's a little bit a little bit different. The people in the process that are part of the judicial system to me are the ones I'm really kind of focused on. And police

officers in general, they can't get tied to it. They are not the judge and jury. And what Dingle did was that he was steering things into a direction based upon his emotions to ensure that this person in fact, was going to be convicted. Now let me just back up for a second, because remember we also talked about the fact that he was in Nevada and he committed a Nevada crime. Right, he did not want to stand

trial in Nevada. He did not want to be convicted in Nevada because he felt that the jail systems in California were better than the jail systems that would be in Nevada. And he even made a comment that he would rather go to a California facility where he could walk, he could work in the kitchen, because he'd have access to liver which he could use to help stimulate himself. So this guy was really I mean, he was really off in a lot of different respects, let's just put

it that way. So that's why they basically gave the opportunity for him to be trained. Now, his attorney at that time okayed the fact that he would be transfer and then later on he did not realize that Madson had done the things that he had done in California, which I don't understand, but again, I can't put myself in issues of why he did it. Didn't do his due diligence, but he okayed the fact that Mason would

be transferred to California. Otherwise Mason could have been convicted in Nevada and you know, done jail time there before he came back to California. And obviously with a crime like this, they don't want that California's was going him back here. So everybody was in agreement at that point, and again Mason had had confessed, etc. The other point

that I want to make is that the families. People don't realize it's not just the victims, it's the families that can be so impacted by these different types of events. To this day, some of these families, you know, cannot forget, you know, what had happened, and so their rights have to be vindicated to know and to feel that the person responsible has truly paid the price. Now you asked me, what was the You asked me, basically, what was the

outcome of the decision by the California Supreme Court. Correct, yes, they reversed the conviction based upon my argument. So he was he was, it was, it was reversed. But what happened was is that the California excuse me, the superior court, the prosecuting attorneys, decided to retry the case. And that's what they did. When they retried the case, he was again found guilty, but this time they excluded the confession. And the reason they did that, obviously, is because it

was in violation of his rights. Because some of the crimes that he had committed. They just did not want to say, Okay, he's out and end the story. So they basically retried the case. But remember what I told you, the last victim he did not kill. She was able to come back and testify against him, and that's what got him convicted for the second time. His appeals. I kid you not. These guys when they get convicted and they're up there on death row. In the whole nine yards,

these guys all become jail house lawyers. They all know each other, they all talk about the appeals. The appeals process is part of the problem. But let's back up to my personal relationship. At that point, I've done my job. My wife is not unhappy because the guy ended up being retried and did not get back out on the street. So that changed everything at that point, you know, in

terms of the concerns that Betty may have had. And of course I was happy because you know, my marriage was intact at that point and he didn't get off and I had done what I was supposed to do. He spent I can't, I kid you not. And I was involved in looking at some of the appeals on him over the years, and and I had trans because I had I had secured some of the some of the appeals and all of that prior to writing the book as well, so I had access to a lot

more information. In addition to that, I had access to Pat Dingle. Pat Dingle made me promise, okay about certain things that he had told me right that I would not be able to put in the book. Pat Dingle has passed away. Michael Madson passed away in prison, by the way, but he was masterful at all of his appeals over the years. I told you, it's a gamester.

He died in prison, and that's the good news. But then I was able to write the book because the information that I had learned from Pat could not have been used to because anytime you have additional information, it could always go toward the appeal and possibly get once again. His conviction reversed right after Pat passed away, which is in the book. I was able to divulge some of the information that I had had that I sat on for all of that time. So Madson died in prison.

One of his family members took the body and he's buried. He's buried in Nevada. Actually he's not that far probably. I think it's from his grandparents' house. So that's what happens.

was guilty. But some of the issues that you had, you were a police officer, a law enforcement officer with the La County Sheriff's Department for twenty years, so you know what a copp meant, and you had your moral

compass straight. What are the things that you argued, especially with things like that California had different different rules and as far as Pat Dingle becoming an agent when negotiating with people, right, he became an agent of an agent of California at that point, So they do they do have different rules regarding that. And that was one of

the reasons why it stood up. Because of the fact that when he started the investigation based upon the crimes in California and the information that he was soliciting, he then becoming he done, He then became a part of the law enforcement agency, so to speak, of California, not

Nevada at that point. If he had stuck to just the Nevada crime, that's one thing, but that's not what he did, and he ended up overstepping his bounds because again I think he looked at this as a career situation where you don't get to get involved in necessarily

a serial killer and then capturing a serial killer. So he actually became an agent of the law enforcement agencies when he's pumping Madison Masine for this information and turning the information over, because he actually came out and testified as well. And of course when he testified, he purged himself because he was asked whether or not he had, you know, given Madson his rights, you know, every single time, and he testified to that, and that was not true.

He did not do that because as I told you, he would have cigarette breaks with him, coffee breaks with him, and be asking him questions and everything is luring him into a false sense of security. So he violated the rights even with doing that, and even violated his own principles because he was a you know then he was a very highly principled individual. But he let this get under his skin, sure, and that was the bad part about it. So he became an agent of the law

enforcement agencies in California. By the way, he solicited the information, received the information, and passed the information on and then he actually couraged himself as well. Let's stop for this message from our sponsor.

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to tie him to any of these crimes. There was no evidence. Now, there was no DNA sample, there was none of that. So it was only that the information was provided by Madson, and that information was solicited in violation of his fifth and sixth Amendment rights. That was the problem.

opportunity to retry. They just can't use the information, which was the confession in his and the way his confession was obtained. They had to leave those pieces out. But remember the last victim was not killed, so they could use the testimony of that person to bring him back in and retry him based her testimony as an example, so they could always bring it back. They just can't use certain things. So she was able to testify in terms of what had happened as well. The information around there,

around the confession was still available. The confession is one thing, but he had other knowledge where he drew the map, he did things of that nature that still linked him back to a certain extent. And remember that I told you that the maintenance person has seen the little girl

with him with the car. So they paced together enough other information to say with this because you know, the jury only has to he has to convict, you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, and they had beyond a reasonable doubt, I mean, you know, so it still satisfies it. So ultimately he was said he was sentenced to death.

not made up of a jury of his peers. You know. So that's a first argument. Those are my peers, you know. And and and my attorney was incompetent. They make those standard arguments. So then you lose that at the appeal process, and then you appeal it to the Caloria, to the Supreme Court. Then once all of the appeals are exhausted in California, whether they turn to now they do a federal writ of habeas corpus the Californiaan's holding me illegally,

and now the process starts all over again. These guys are gamesters at that level.

are political issues that are associated in politics. It is associated with this and if California voters got very upset about that, both of them out because they wanted it back. That's how Charles Manson got off of death row was because of Justice of Rose Bird as an example. But at any rate, so the politics plays into it because you get these different governors, like right now we have a governor that says, you know, no, you know, there's

not going to be any executions in California. So politics does play a role.

to death. California has been up and down on this, I mean decades, and then with the lethal injection that became a whole big issue also, So then they suspended it based upon the legal injection arguments that whether or not it's going to be pain, no pain, things of that nature, it's just going to always be a political

you know, you know, football so to speak. Sure, Newsom says no execution now, but if Newsom loses on his next election because he won the recall situation, and now you turn around and you get a Republican governor will say, then you know, that could all be once again. You know, death penalty is back. So they're still on death row. They're just not doing the executions. And I think there's nine hundred people on death row or something like that right now. Yeah, but they may never they may never

be executed, who knows. And it costs a lot of money to put these to lead these guys on death row.

man had appeals almost up to his death. Last time he was in court, he was in court in a wheelchair, So you know, he very well could have died from complications as I understand, and associated with HIV because remember he was I don't want to use the word, Okay, I'll say sexually DV and we'll put it that way. So who knows that I already told you about how he's you know, felt of these female with certain respects.

So eventually all of that brought up to him. To make a long story short, so he died in prison basically not on death row at the time that he died. He was put into a prison hospital at another location. So he was not in death row because his time was coming. Let's just put it that way.

So I had to wait and after Pat had passed away and Michael Mason had passed away, then I was free to do something more comprehensive than I was able to do the first time. I even interviewed Pat's wife after Pat had passed away, and she gained information. I actually interviewed one of the family members by marriage of Cheryl Guterres as well. So you have situations where now you're free to give more information than you were before.

so to speak. You know, you treat them right, you give them every courtesy you give them back because once again, you're not the judge injury. And now for us to determine why somebody does what they do. And that's why in the case itself. You know, in the transcripts, I'm able to read about the different psychologists of talk about why he was the way he was, etc. That's why those experts are in place. This is why he did what he did, and people don't think about that in

your judicial system. What happened, This is what happened, but this is why it happened, and sometimes that's enough to get somebody off or to get somebody, you know, to reduce sentence. I mean, there's so many different factors. Pat Dingo did not want that to happen. He wanted everything coming out because he did not want to see this guy walk under any circumstances. And that's not and was not his job.

can be safe under those trying times. I've done active shooter training. I've trained probably over thirty thousand people in active shooter training across the country. I've spoken in front of political groups, political associations except business associations as well

businesses and schools. The blog is something that I write about my regular nine to five, so I've done that probably about twelve years, where every Monday I put out a blog on Listen Up with Jim Hotts, and I put out information for employers from managers and supervisors that they can read on recent cases, situations that they need to be aware, updates in the law, and things of that nature.