DEATH OF A CHEERLEADER-Kevin M. Sullivan

That's Chumbuck Casino dot com.

to do with her head. Selling tickets at a drive in movie theater proves deadly, and a parent's worst nightmare becomes reality their young daughter disappears from a sleepover. The focus of the program this evening is Death of a Cheerleader with my special guests, journalist and author Kevin M. Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for greeing this interview. Kevin M. Sullivan.

the Beach. Yeah, first off, you know, other than give us your Kentucky background for those people that don't know, and why it was important for you to what was it about these particular cases that you wanted to assemble for this book, Why these cases and why Kentucky tell us about that?

And then there was another case that I included in this book, Death of a Cheerleader, and that's the title of the book, about a girl that was murdered here in Kentucky. So these cases came about. I mean I would hear them, sometimes, I would catalog things, and then sometimes and then after I reached the place where I knew, I thought there are enough strange cases out of Kentucky that I can compile them together. That's when I started

doing research. And of the cases, some of them were more recent and some of them were from a long time ago, and those will get into later. They were very interesting as much as how do you get the information? Where do you go to get it? It's going to be in the archives somewhere of a police department, But you got to have dates, you got to have names, and when there are long ago cases, sometimes all you carry is an idea of what happened, what was reported

at the time. The boy it's something. Having to attract this stuff down. I was very fortunate. I've always been good at doing research and getting to things, so I never had a whole lot of problems of getting to it. But it was time consuming, so that it was my idea to put together something from the state of Kentucky from all these bizarre cases, and every state added me.

But some of the cases that and in this particular book, I've only included six, but I've compiled many cases and I'll have another book coming out later from while Do Press having to do with other Kentucky murders. And I used to also write for a paper here in Kentucky, uh and that paper was called Snitch, and it was a weekly print newspaper at one point in time that was published in five states, and in Kentucky it was

published in both Lexington and Louisville. Wasn't on staff, but I was a contributing writer, and some of these cases would be published in Snitch. So there was a lot of material out there, even from a state with you know, somewhere around maybe a little bit less than four million people. So yeah, there's just some real, you know, bizarre stuff that's happened. And then, like I say, everything has them.

And for people who want to take the time to track those strange cases down over years, they can come up with some really wild stuff. Mm hm.

These are truly you've really managed to come up with some strange and bizarre cases. So let's get to this one. And for those that really don't know, because we do have a younger some people are younger that listen to this program, and some people are older like me. But anyway I wanted to ask was for those that don't know the Alfred Hitchcock rear window reference, let's talk about this case and the witness and the entire case itself with Heather Tigue one day at this Newbird Beach in Henderson.

So tell us a little bit about this and a little bit about Tim Waltall, who an interesting character in this.

have to check. It's been so many years since I've actually written the case. I've been I've done so many things since then. But she was just a young girl. She was so kind of trying to find her way in life. But she took a Saturday, a really nice day in August and went to a place called Newburgh Beach, which was at the Ohio River at Henderson, Kentucky, and of course across the river is Indiana. Well, this beach

would occasionally be the spot for people to come. You know, kids would come and you know, drink beer at night, and some people had got involved with drugs. They would come up and a lot of those activities occurred at night. On the day she was there, there were the spot that she went to. She had to actually park her car along an access road that was shrouded in trees. And when she parked her car, there were other cars that either were parked there or would soon be parked there.

And there were some kids riding some ATVs mall terrain vehicles about a half a mile upstream from her, and they would occasionally come down near to her, and I'm sure that they never even saw her. Well, what she did, she got a chase lounge, and she got her cooler and her cow, and she went and placed the chase lounge at the bottom, right at the water's edge so she could dangle her feet in it. Now across the river. I say this in the book because she would have

noticed the homes across across the river. It's like a half a mile two quarters of a mile. She really wouldn't have paid a whole lot of attention to them. And they're really nice homes, but if there's nobody out there and nobody can see you, it's very private. She

wouldn't paid a lot of attention to them. Whatever was this man named Tim Waltle, He used to he had a telescope that was in his living room and they had a large window there, and he used to love to look at the wild lines, and when people weren't around, there would be deer and he might have seen coorities, but there was a lot of wildlife and he enjoyed

looking at that. Well, this was a Saturday. He has wife had been out working in the yard, and so when she went to fix them some hamburgers, he came in from the yard and sat down and he saw he was looking through there, and he happened to spot this woman that was laying there on the beach, and he would have even seen her except he was he had seen a kid coming down on an ATV, and as he got near to her, he spotted her, and he happened to mention to his wife, there there's there's

a lady laying out there all alone. And he thought it was kind of odd, because, like I said, at nighttime anyway, there were in Savory characters that would come around there, but this was a beautiful day. Well, he had only been looking at her a few minutes, but he he spot on a man crouching in the woods looking at her, and his first thought was, well, maybe he knows her. And then the guy's stands up and he takes and she can't see him. She's unbuttoned the

back of her top, her bathing suit top. It's a two piece so that she would get an even tan, and she was laying face down on the chase lounds. So he starts bounding hand of the woods, takes about ten steps and stops, and then he takes another. Finally he gets to her, and Walfall said to me, he said, you know, I thought for a second maybe it's her boy's hand. Then he saw her, saw him bend down and took his hand, and he wrapped her hair around his wrists and arm, and then he saw that the

man had a gun in his hand. Well, the girl was soon abducted and he yanked her up off the chair and get and there's nobody seeing this but Tim Walfall, And within moments he had got her out of sight and they were gone. So he calls the as I recalled the Indiana State Police, they said, well, that's not our jurisdiction. So they transferred in the Kentucky State Police. And you know a lot of times operators will they'll take their time, and they wanted from He said, I

gotta talk to somebody now. A's a girl that's been abducted. So we got a hold of a man that the commander of posts I believed he was sixteen of the Kentucky State Police. I got him at David Osborne and he showed him in. So that's how that case began, and that I'm going to give you time. They asked questions, but that that girl has never been located. But over a period of days, a suspect appeared because of some anonymous calls, and then he had been a suspect in

some other things. It's never been proven that he's done this, but his name was Martin and he called him Marty Dill. And there's the police believe there's a lot of circumstantial evidence against him. So whoever got this girl, they got her out of the way. Osborne, you know, he got his men together and man, they just so I did it. They got to that uh, well, I'm sorry, I had to back up a little bit. As he was as Osborne was gathering his men, he said, I think one

of my troopers is over there. It just came from Newburg beak and and and then this was nineteen ninety five, he said, And he has a stop bone, so he said, so he said, I'm uh uh, I guess he had him call him. So uh he called him, and Tim couldn't see his patrol car approaching, but he said, I saw a plume of dust coming up over the trees, and I knew that was him. And within a few minutes to compet parked his car just about where Heather's

car was, and we're other cars there too. Came down through there, and Osborne is talking on the phone, and he's talking on his cell phone to to I mean Osborne. He Tim Malthall and and the police officer are talking and Tim is actually showing him where to go on the beach so he doesn't miss the girl's stuff. And then he said, oh, I see it, I've got it. And within no time Osborne came down there, and so then then that you know happened, and they stopped a

couple of cars, but this guy was long gone. Now, there was a man that was videotaping that morning because the ATVs I mentioned there were a lot of kids that were tearing up land using those vehicles, and uh so a farmer had hired this guy to videotape and he had accidentally left his video tape, his video re her on and pasted it on the dashboard and he passed down this this this access road, and he called Heather's car and he actually caught her and did this

was I guess this is? Yeah, this that morning when she was getting out of the car, and there was also a red and white Bronco that was parked there. And they believe whoever was driving that Bronco is the one who abducted Heather t. And it turns out that they put out you know, uh, you know the what's the thing, the facial things, you know Commas description of the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they put that out and they got a call like a couple of days later

and said there's a guy that pits the description. It's an anonymous call. He said, his name is Marvin Dill. They call him Marty, and he drives a red and white broncle. Well, this guy, you know, so they start the wheels kind of moving in this direction, right. They also obtained information that this Dell fella uh is also and this all happened very quickly, had also been a suspect in a sexual attack on a woman a number

of months early in a cemetery in Kentucky. Issue was cutting grass, and he was a suspect in this other attack because there was there were anonymous calls there as well.

months before. And you know, the girl could not completely identify him there either, because the guy that wore the guy that did that to her had like a fish netting thing on his face, like a hatn't like some fish net and so it acted yeah, yeah, yeah, So

she wasn't quite sure. She couldn't say for a certainty. Well, it turns out this still fella before the abduction of Heather Thieves had also gotten in trouble in Evansville, Indiana, for he had been circling a place called Haini's Corner and it appeared that he was trying to pick up girls, and so he was pulled over by the police in Evansville. And the first thing the officer did, he said, you

have any weapons on you? He said no, and he said, well, I needed to get out of your truck, and he did, and they did a check of the seat and under the seat, and they found two pistols and then they checked and found a knife in his pocket. So he was immediately under arrest. But the interesting thing was, and I talked to the detective, the evens the detective about this, but they found in his pocket duct tape, and they found a rope and a shovel and plastic bags in

his car. And I asked the detective about that, and here's what he said to me. He said, well, you know, I thought this guy was gonna take a girl, and if we didn't arrest him, he's going to kill somebody today because here, you know, like the friend, he's lying about weapons, he's circling Haiti's corner, he's trying to pick up girls. He's got duct tape on him, he's got rope, he's got a shovel, he's got plastic bags. I felt like he's going to kill somebody today. So that's what

he told me. That's what it looked like. That's I'm sure that's what it looked like to the patrol officers. So he made bail at court. They'd coming up and when he left Indiana he would never step but back in Indiana again, he got back to Kentucky and then this other stuff happens. But when everything's and this is very curious because there's no hard evidence against Bill, but there's a ton of circumstantial evidence inasmuch as there's people

calling and reporting him. There is the body type that Walthall saw when Walthall, when all this was over and he got the view Deill, he could see that it was the same, and there were some other circumstances as well well. All this happened over a period of about four days where it really started coming down on Bill, I think, and I had to check the book, but I think they got it. The five anonymous calls from different people about about Martyville and the possibility of him

being involved in the abduction of Edity. So the police, you know, got a warrant, and before they went out to his property, they got a call from Dell's attorneys. Sadil was threatening suicide. He had put his wife and child off of the land. He lived on land about two acres that had been deeded to him from his father father owned about twenty two acres and he needed an over of years before there's a couple of acres to his son, and I think he had a trailer

and he and his wife and his child limber. So the attorney said, he's threatened to kill himself and he told his wife. I'm looking at ten to twenty and I'm not going. Well, that's part of the substantial evidence against them. This guy is showing all the signs of

having done something very bad. I mean, if Bill had not in their minds, if Bill had not been involved with this, why would he be putting his wife and daughter of property making statements like I'm looking at end, I'm looking at I'm sorry, I'm looking at twenty of the life and I'm not going if he hadn't done something terrible. Oh Osborne, who was at the helm of this, he went very slowly with They got the warm.

out and his uncle went back in. And his uncle had only been in this trailer for a few minutes when he got a gunshot, and the uncle ran out screaming he you know, he shot himself and everybody. And then then then you know, some people ran the other way, the people that were just there, but Osborne and everybody else ran into the trailer. And Bill had shot himself in the head with probably a twenty two caliber pistol and he expired soon after that. So this all happened

late in the evening. So Walthall got a phone call in the middle of the night and he said, uh, Marvin Dill's dead. I was one told Walfall that Dyl's dead, and he said, I'd like you to take a look at the body, and Walkow said I will. He said, I'll have one of the patrol officers come over and kid, and he had some lady patrol officer. She came over and got him. But before he got off the phone, Walthall I asked him, he said, did Dale say anything about other said no, said nothing to anybody who just

killed himself. So the officer drives him over to the funeral home and the medical examiner was, I think he had already performed the autopsy on Bill. He looked at the body type, everything that he had described to Osborne. According to Osborne, was fulfilled in Dil's body type the way he was. Now. It's not hard evidence, but they were satisfied. So the patrol officer said, are you sure that this is the man you saw through the telescope? He said yes. She said, are you one hundred percent sure?

He said, how can anybody be one hundred percent sure of anything? But yes? And I remember Walthall telling me that when he heard that he was a suspect in this rape, in this cemetery war where the person who did this war a fish net, you know, net like a mosquito net across the face. He said, that was

why I had trouble seeing the face. So I say in the story that all we know for sure, and I name a number of things off about this is that you know, she's she's gone, she's dead, and for someone known reason, he called himself before he could be questioned by the police. So it's a case that's never going anywhere. You know, he walthough even and he helped Heather's mother for about the years, you know, this calendar business, and he had the money to do it, and he

organized searchers and paid for those. He hired several psychics. Nothing came herd that he thought something was going to come out at one point it didn't. But he did everything that he could and they've never found this girl. Well, what's interesting is that, you know, in most cases these abductions, they say that the victims are good within silver hours. I mean that's not always the rule, of course, but a lot of times they are. I will say this.

They when oze I had forgotten to mention this because he was the only person that saw the killer, even if he didn't get the greatest look. When Osbourne got to the beach that day, both couldn't stand just standing there anymore. He just couldn't take it just talking over

the phone, so he got in his boat. A neighbor went with him and he went across the river and then Osborne they walked around to where there was like a sandburm some that was blocking and this person who abducted the other to get taken her that way and

she went out of sight. Well, when they went to that area where they had to have gone, where they were no longer in his view from across to her, they said that the sand was very gouged up in many places where they were struggling, and you know, her feet were digging in and he was maybe losing his balance because he had a gun on her, but he didn't shoot her there, but he was wasting no time with what he wanted to do because he had ripped

off her bottoms there. So however, he transported her conscious or unconscious to the vehicle. Whoever did this to her, she was already nude, and of course he whoever this was, had to take her to his car and take a chance on being seen. They had scoured that area, they could not find her remains, and I can't imagine whoever did this, for example, raping her and killing her within two or three hundred yards of there and then during

the body I just don't think that would have happened. Besides, there was a vehicle seen to be leaving soon afterwards, and awarding to one witness, it was that red and white Bronco, So it looks like that, you know, they told me at the at the State Police over there when I interviewed him and they take it, I taped it. There was about, you know, eight of them in there, six to eight of them patrol mem maybe a detective

or two. And within at Osborne, I was able to my research to come up with some material that surprised them. And asked me how I got that information. I said, by interviewing people. They said, well, that has to be because it was not in our reports. But I identified that they know, this girl that lived through the cemetery attack, knows what kind of pistol he had, and I believe it was a silver one silver revolver. I believe. I

had to check the book. But the two weapons that still had on him in Evansville were a blue steel one was I think guitar. I swowed something else and I think that they might have been both automatics, but they were not silver. But I believe the gun that Walfall saw, I had to check the look again that was also silver. Anyway, there was a few things that came up with and I also learned the name of his boyfriend, who incidentally was supposed to meet her later

that day at the beach. Of course, you know if he showed up and I never talked to him. There was a just a just a whole party of police by that time. But what was interesting is that when the news cruise showed up and started filming and there's Osborne standing with Walfall, he told Walfall, he said, you need to go back to your home. You're the only person that's seen this individual, and it's going to be

all over the news. So we'd rather you go back home, and we don't want this guy searching you out so that you'll become a second victim. But most of these men who kill women, they're afraid of and they're not going to bother that. They're too busy bothering women. He that as it may, he didn't want any undue trouble coming to Walfall. But it's a very very strange case with no and it's completely open. Officially, the case is still open. But all the police officer said me, that's official.

We all know who did it. That was their statement, and you know, I can read between the lines. It's a close case. It's like an OJ thing. When they lost the case against OJ, the LAPD didn't go looking for the cole Browns killer, it didn't happen. So in their minds it's a case like that. But like I say, it's circumstantial evidence that it's sure is a terrible thing. And so what would have cause Dell to kill himself? What would have caused dil to say I'm looking at

twenty to life and I'm not going. So that's what we're left with.

said we're coming in. They did not do that they waited office property, and then Osborne was way back from the trailer, ended up with some of these other officers talking to Dyl's father. So there was no threatening stuff going on. Were taking their time when you have a warrant, and you know they could have pickn on one of those things in Basketdora. Instead we're coming in guns blazing, not firing, but Bill pointed a deal. They chose not to do that. So some people think that the police

caused this, but it didn't. And I think what caused it is is that whatever was bothering dial he didn't want to talk about anything about Newburg Beach or dis missing girl. And again you got to read between the lines. If he thought it was a parking ticket, He's not going to send a piece of lead through his head. So that's why he did it now, and I'm sure

his wife understands why he did it. She had asked him if he had been to Newburgh Beach once these calls started coming to anything started eating up, and I can't remember. He may have denied it. Now. I spoke with Detective Lanny Allen, who went to see this. You know, when he became a suspect in this attack on this woman in the cemetery. He said, you know, he said his body fit the description. He already knew about the vision.

Now she couldn't quite see all the face, but his body tie fit the subscription of what the what the lady gave him. Now, he took some polaroids of Dill and Bill, you know, did not object to that, and he when he showed it to her, she said, I can't really say for sure, which was strange because aster Bill killed himself and his picture showed up in the paper. She said, I don't know why. I said, I couldn't identify him from the polaroids, because that's the guy, and

I've got the report. And in Lanny Allen's report, he said, after he said this, the suspect in this case, meaning the cemetery attack, took his life as officers were trying to serve warrants on his property. And you know, this case is closed. So in Lanny Allen's mind, there is no doubt who attacked the woman in the cemetery. In the Kentucky State Police, all these officers that worked the case, there is no doubt in their minds who killed Heather t.

They just can't come out and say it. And the people that arrested him in Indiana, Listen, if you notice whoever did these things, sexual attack in the cemetery, the woman was allowed to go, whoever did it? Arrest in Utah? I mean you, Thomas to think about the funny case arrest in Evansville had to do with there's a shovel, there's the rope, there's a duct date. Who knows why

did he have that? Well, let's read between the lines and so if that, you know, if that was for the various reasons, and if they're right about him having been involved in the Adite case, if they're right about that, I don't know. If they're right about that like they think they are, then it might have a bad end. All we know is she's gone and has never been found, and he killed himself because he didn't want to talk about her or Newburg Beach.

for him. You know, it's like you can't go home again. And he never expected to see that. And like I say, that's why I said, it was like it was just it was like something out of Alfred Ditchcock. You know the movie Rear Window that the guy sees from his window. He's laid up with a broken leg and he's in this department complexes. He's want to cross away from him. A murderer curs and so it's one of those deals and the only person that sees it is a guy

sitting with a broken leg. And here, in Tim's case, he's just like, just think about it. If he wouldn't have seen this, nobody would. The only thing they thought is she's gone. They wouldn't know anything, and whoever did it would just be out there killing again.

If the found that they might be found accidentally. It's even sometimes when you leave bodies in rurle the most areas, the animals will take care of them and even the remains may never be found, maybe years before somebody comes across something that even resembles a human bone, or they may never But whatever happened to Heather Tigue, she was probably hastily buried. And you know, so that's just it.

the edge of Louisville. And this was one of the cases that was I didn't know where to get the information. I was talking to my friend who's now to Seas, James Matthew, who actually is the fellow that introduced me to Jerry Thompson. I got the bunding, you know, murders rolling. And I asked him one day, I said, do you remember this case where they had a couple of picke attackers abducted from a driving on different nights. He said, oh, yeah,

I do, And I couldn't remember the date. I wasn't sure and it was a June and it was June. Couldn't remember if it was seventy three or not. I wasn't sure. But there were some particulars that I didn't know about it, but he was able to remind me of some names. And then and then when I got those names and of like the killers, and I had a firm date and I was able to check some stuff.

I went to the Jefferson County Police Department. And that was before Jefferson County and Louisville combined and now they're just Louisville Metro and yeah, and the Jefferson County Police Department they had trouble finding this in the archives. There had never been anything else written about this case. And so I got the file too that they finally located the file. And for those who read the story, it's

really se real. There were these two losers and there's no death penalty at the time, so they've been sentenced to lives. But James FactCheck and Danny Lee Petrick and Petrick had already open people and you know, but up until this time, I don't think he had committed a murder. But the if everybody, of course, the younger people don't really understand drive ins. I mean, I sure they know something about them, because he used to be very, very popular, and many drive ins. You'd go into them a lot

of times. The ticket booth would be a little bit down the gravel road and not connected to some of the main buildings, like what they sell popcorn and all that stuff. Right, And there was this really sweet girl she had she was in her senior year, Rita Robbins, And I got the case file, you know, you got you can't go over this stuff without thinking of the family,

thinking of the parents. How terrible, terrible this was. When I originally wrote this, it was thirty years after A yeah this is published and snitched this story back in two thousand and three, and it it was, it was the lead article. And when I got the case file, and I, uh, because we're all the pictures of the uh, the pictures of the bodies being on the earth, and the pictures of these these two missed it, and how

they were arrested and all that stuff. But there was a picture that was this is really said it was. It was it was her high school picture for the year, and it had I think Rita had just picked it up like the day or maybe maybe a few days before, and you know it, the pictures had just come out, and so when this happened and their daughter went missing, and that's what ultimate happened. And that's why I'll get to and to turn in one of these pictures to

the police. And I recognized what other pictures was at the moment I saw it, but it's in the police property. It's part of the case style, so I was able to republish it. Uh, you know. But what happened was these two guys robbed and kidnapped this rider, John Robbins, from the ticket place one night. And it's very rural, and they pulled out of the gravel driveway and if you take a right, you're heading back into a lot of stuff and you'll ultimately go into the city of Louisville.

You take a left, you're headed out into like within a couple of blocks, you're out of Jefferson County and you're in the next county. I think it's Bullock. And they took her to a secluded place and they counted up. You know, she was trying to play along with them. I don't think she I don't think she believed she was going to be murdered, and if it was left up to Patrick, she probably wouldn't have been murdered. They're

both cycle paths. But after she and she was kind of they said, making a joke, but counting up the money, splitting the money between them, trying to do whatever she

could not to upset them. And with that, sef Jack took her in the car, may her get undressed, and he raped her, and then he got out in the car and he said she's gonna be killed now, so miss It was sef Check's proclamation, if you will, that the girl should die, and he grants her with both his arms behind her arms and kept screaming, three or four times, kill her, kill her. Pilbooks and Patrick had this and there's a picture of it in the book, this really long knife, and he had carved a swastip,

painted the swastika on her. He was in the Nazism. Is he just a little missfit and he stands her. I don't know. I think it's like ten or twelve times, and the girl collapsed against the car, got blown in the car. It was killed right. Well, you know she's missing. Nobody knows.

He was getting ready to have all that happened. He was going to move to Louisville. He's gonna keep working at the drive here, and then he was going to enroll at the University of Louisville, and he was ultimately one of an attorney. Well, two weeks later he disappears and it's the same too. They got him and they murdered him. He was very nervous that night, extremely nervous, very on edge, as if you know, some people get premonition sometimes that something bad is coming. I personally think

that Shoemaker had that. You know, there was a woman that worked in a bag here in Louisville a number of years ago on channeli's lane here in Louisville, and she said she kept feeling for months, I need to leave this job. I need to leave this job. I need to transfer to another bank. I keep having a really bad feeling about me working here. She never did anything about it. The bank was robbed one day. One of the robbers hopped over where she was and shot

her and killed her. Wow, these things come to people sometimes as warnings, and I think that, well, a shoemaker had a premonition that something was going to go wrong, and it did, and they murdered him as well. Now these people, you know, if you look at Patrick, he's covered in tattoos, He's just covered. He's got even upsecene words on his body. I mean, these guys are the

dregs of society. Now, later, as they were captured again, there were people calling up and saying, look, there's a couple guys that were are boasting that they killed these two young people. And apparently some of the young people found out where shoemaker was and they had gone and dared the body if that's not strange, but hadn't yet called the police. And so these two brilliant people said check and Patrick, they say, well, you know, it was our plan to keep going back to the same location

and keep abducting ticket pickers. So apparently they were working us up after two. Now it's interesting because when I got the police report, I'm reading through it right, and it actually goes it says at one point, it says they weren't sure if there was a foul play or not. They're still thinking that maybe she took off, maybe Shoemaker took off, and maybe they're together, and I'm thinking, hold

the phone. And then as the report goes on a little bit, he said, but all this is speculation, he said, we must assume that foul play, you know, is a part of this until we know otherwise. I thought, well, thank god for that. I don't think I put that in a chapter. But that's how they're interesting. I found the report. If I was the detective on that case, I would have assumed there was foul play from the moment I saw the circumstances. I wouldn't have considered that

anything else until evidence said otherwise. But listen, no matter what air searches they did or ground searches, nothing, So they start getting calls about these two misfits, and so they bring these guys in on some other charges. I think Patrick had an outstanding war so they brought him in and pretty soon they broke him down. It took a while, but they broke him down, and Patrick actually admitted to I believe it was the lead detective. He said, he shaw, and I've gotten in the book. I've got

the quote from the detective. But he feels like that he felt bad about maybe having done these things, and that he needed to get the girl home so our parent's going to have a proper burial. And so, you know, when this thing was published in Snitch, you know, I always aware if there's any family members that are still around, how they're going to receive something. And there were some people that called. I got a call from the editor one day and he said, where did you get the

picture of reader Joan Robinson. I said, I got it from the Jefferson County Police Department. It's a matter of public record now. He said, you did get it from the Jefferson County Police I said absolutely. He was concerned that I might have gotten it from somewhere else and published it without the permission of the family, because somebody apparently in the family was very upset. I said, I'm

really sorry. They got a beef. They need to take it up with them because they never retrieved that photograph. It became part of the public record. So I said, they're not going to do any I told the editor. I said, there's not really anything anybody can do. But some people were sorry. Now, most people that read the article were glad to read the article because they nobody ever really knew the full story about it. These guys took a plea market. There was no trial. There are

no transcripts there. There is typically the police file, and that's what I was able to get. Had had I not gotten the police file, this stuff would have gone down to the dust of history. I mean it was. They would have been forgotten except for little incidentals that there was once a driving here in lil Ar. Two people were taking the murder. But this is no lot out there on. So I've heard from a lot of people that remember that case. A lot of people knew

the killers. They certainly knew Brida John Robbins, and not a lot of people except for those that were to drive in New Orleans Shoemaker, but came in in their lives just got stuffed out like that.

He didn't kill him as he was robbing him. That too, was a long Dixie Highway, and so these guys are living their lives in this area and they're also committing crimes in the same area. They're not very bright individuals, but you know, a smart killer will go other places and not and conceal themselves, and they certainly won't talk about their murders. But these guys ran their mouths, so that's what really here. Again, the bodies were sequestered somewhere

and buried in shallow grays. Had Petric and stepcheck Nott talked, they probably wouldn't have found the bodies, and they might not have found them. They might have been arrested for the murders later. But they ran their mouths. But they were working in so that's why they chose this drive in. I think they felt comfortable taking the ticket takers because they were all alone. And I think Rita was grabbed

around eleven o'clock between eleven and eleven fifteen. The people that on the drive in their name was Hornsby and the wife I think she left around eleven or six, said she had to run home for Sumpie and she would be back. By the time she got back, Rita was gone, and one of the workers there had come down to the booth and giving Rita like a nice cold you know, seven up to drink, and that appeared to be untouched. So she disappeared very quickly and in Okay,

here's the thing. Here's the police will tell you Trey has a gun on you get in the car. No, you run, Oh well they might shoot me. They're going to kill you if you get in the car. Yeah, let them fire. Let them not fire. Chances are if they hit you, they're going to wound you. But if you get in the car, you're dead. This is how this stuff worked. I guarantee you Ronald Shoemaker, would I've run along the gravel. They might have fired a shot at him, but they might have just got in the

car and left. But when you get in the car, you are dead. But people get frightened, they don't know what to do. That's what Shoemaker did. That's what Rita did. So these guys, everything was going their way, and they're so brilliant that they thought, let's just keep coming back to the same drive in kind of like the guy that keeps coming back to the same store and robbing it over and over again. So I mean that's how they think.

Tetric didn't rape the girl, but Septchak did. But Septcheck one of them. They're both cyclepaths. But you know, he was the one that egged Tetrick on to do this, and yeah, there's just really something now. Had the death penalty, of course, Kentucky's bad about putting people to death. I mean, we've got people going death for all, you know, thirty years here. I mean, we're almost as bad as California.

But had the death penalty been in play, these guys, you know, they would have Old Spark, you would have you know, gotten them by now or maybe the Gray. But and believe me, these people need to be dead. They need to be under the soil and they don't need to be breathing air. That's just the way it is with these folks. But because the death penalty was on hiatus as it were, and we were in between things, there's nothing else they could do with them but give them life.

was on a cheerleading team. She she had been involved in the competition. She'd come to Louisville and they won their competition here in Louisville, and they went back that night. So she wanted to watch a movie with her boyfriend. So she goes to a place called the Minute Mark in this little town, I want to say, sleepy down. A nice community, certainly not the place, I don't think.

They had had a homicide in the city for about fourteen fifteen years and certainly nothing diabolical, you know, nothing like that which was about to happen. And she went to return this movie and just call it the way I think. But there was a guy in there, and this came out later, and he he saw her and he mentioned to somebody in there. He said, boy, but I like to have a piece of that. And he

left the minute mark before she did. And there was one witness that said that she that this purpose witness said, I saw somebody crouching by Sarah Hanson's van, but when Sarah came out, apparently he wasn't right there. But I think Sarah may have because of the familiarity of where she was and she knew people in there, and it's a nice little town. She may have left the door unlocked and he got in the van. He got in the back of it, and when she comes out, she's abducted.

And the murder. When the paper first reported on the murder, again, this is the thing where you know, I hear a newspaper report. They had it wrong on how she was killed, but they talked about how mirandas it was, it bothered me so much when I heard it, I thought, if I don't whether I write about it or not, I got to find out what happened to this girl. I just for my own self. I got to find out

what happened to this girl and mine. So I started investigating the case, and I started making calls, and I talked to a couple officers from the department, and I was able to get the transcript oddly enough released to me because it was not yet a part of the public record, because he hasn't been put to death yet. But it was in the hands of his attorney, and this guy actually released it to me, and he let me go through the transcripts and I had some so

I had these things. I had a lot of interviews. I was able to copy a lot of stuff, and I pieced everything together as to what happened. It's really if you read the chapter, it's almost like a moment by moment day. Now what bothered me is that, I mean, I've written a lot about murder, and I've you know, done the Bundy Murders, and if anybody's read my book, The Bundy Murders of Comprehensions History, I go into great

detail as to what happened to his victims. And this is just the kind of sociopath psychopath that we're dealing with. But this particular murder really troubled me, and I really it's the only time this's ever happened to me. A couple of nights, I woke up in a cold sweat breathing r just a cold sweat, because it was on my mind, most troubling thing to write about this particular girl. And I won't go into great detail here because people read it, they'll understand the way this guy he took her.

He forced her to drive to lose her in the lake, which was on the outskirts of town, and he attacked her with a box cutter, and he raped her on the back seat, and he cut her throat, but he did not kill her. It took a while for her to bleed out. She didn't lose consciousness, She didn't sever an artery. It was so bad that they matched the blood pattern from the neck on the front on the It was like a three seat van, I guess, and he had pushed her neck up against it as he

raped it from behind. He tore her brawl, he tore her pants off, such physical fourth force. The blood pattern, well, she did not die for quite some time. You know, a number of I don't know, fifteen twenty minutes, I don't know the attack was over, he was dragging it to the lake. Finally, as he was dragging it to the lake, she finally. I don't know if she completely expired by the time he threw in the water, but I can't remember. I have to check my own books.

She might have taken it from the breast in the water, she might have had some water in her lungs. I can't remember. It was the most horrible. It's one thing to be killed, it's another thing to be killed like that. And so you know, I wrote the story on it, and I remember interviewing this also was in Snitch and

the story, the story I wrote is perfect. They sent somebody down there and interview a couple of people, and they got some information wrong when they went down there, but they didn't find that van for a couple of hours after searching for her. And when they send somebody down there, somebody told them all other family van in a few minutes. That's not true. I've spoken to the officer, Doug West, and West was a seasoned officer. He really didn't have a lot of homicides. You know, he's used

to stuff. He's used to come it up on creepy scenes we're out looking for this girl. And Officer Harvey's out, the Officer West is out. Family members are out. And West told me, he said, you know, I thought I would go to the lake just to see, just to see. He said. As I rolled in, it's all dark, and I think it's around ten o'clock down, he says.

lights are still in the van. He could see that there was a lot of blood on the side of the outside of the van. He also looked in, and when he looked into the van, he said, there's this

blood everywhere. There's this blood everywhere. There's putting the back seat, there's blood in the front seat, and what I found out is that from the evidence, she fought him, even though her throat didn't be slice, even though her windpipe was sticking out, she fought him and tried to drive that van out of there, and that's why there's all this blood in the front seat area. Where she got

the strength to do this, I don't know. And the blow on the outside of the van came from when she was taken and he was pulling her along the van. Maybe I think she might have even then tried to break away and he pulled her back. I don't know, but she was able to walk and be you know, it wasn't a full drag. She was trying the effort to go along. And then when Ulficer Harvey got there, he had West secure that Porslau the scene, and Harvey reported that after a while it was his drag marks.

It had gone from two people walking or basically one with feet marks, you know, on the ground, stumbling whatever, to just drag marks. He was dragging a body and she still may not have been dead, but she was not able to resist her to do anything. And so yeah, it's it's a it's the worst kind of murder that I've heard of. I mean, it's just it's just really bad.

So anyway, when I was doing this, I don't normally bother the family, but it's a small town, and so I thought, you know, I kind of and maybe this was I would be naive, but I thought, maybe I owe it to the parents. I know they've heard about me. I know they've already heard about me. To call them up and just to introduce myself and see if they

needed to ask me any questions. I've called one morning and she answered the phone, and she got her husband on the phone, and they were both on different phones, and we were talking about it, and I found out Then you feel so sorry for these people, because time doesn't heal stuff. It just doesn't. It just changes. And when this guy went to trial, they were only there. They did not go to the trial. They were only

there two times for the preliminary hearing or whatever. When he was being arraigned, they were there, and maybe he'd open the other trial. They weren't there with the testimony, and they were there for when he was sentenced. But when I was talking to her, she thought, for a second, I was going to say something about information I had on my daughter. She said, no, no, no, don't tell me.

I had no intention of doing that, but I learned from that, and I thought, you know what, unless something really happens to where I need to speak with a family member the future on future cases, I'm going to let this go because it was difficult for me. But I'm the one there, you know, trying to find information, so I wasn't thinking to me. But it was very difficult for them too. I felt very sorry for them.

But that's the only case. And this was long before I talked to them that that woke me up in a cold sweat. It's it's just it's horrible anyway. Yeah, someone can can kill like that. It's just terrible that it's monstrous.

loved one is dead. And the fellow, he's a realized guy. But the fellow I was debating, he kept thinking that was vengeance, and I kept saying, no, not vengeance. These people are so beyond anything like that. They're so changed as people, they just can't move on. So I'm a big believer in the death penalty for the victims and also because I think it's intrinsically the right thing to do. Okay, a guy kills his a guy for signing with his wife, does shit, he get the death enity. No guy gets

a fight and kill somebody hits the death penalty. No kidnapping people, murdering diabolical stuff, yes, killing police officers yes. So there's mans and then there's Flaidel homicide. So you know there's there's there's first agree murder, so, but I hope we don't lose to that penalty, even though some states aren't carrying it out, because I think it's it's it's a good tool in the justice system. But again that's my opinion. A lot of people will disagree with that.

to be a cornerstone of justice. When you have one state doesn't have a death penalty and another state does, and one state enforces a death penalon and another one really doesn't, and the reason for some of them. Abandoning the death penalty is because of money, and you do have. Often it depends on how good your attorney is and if you've paid for your attorney, and there are as in Canada and in America there's advantages to paying for your lawyer and paying well for your lawyer as well.

So again equality kind of goes out the window. I understand though, the sentiment. I understand the emotion. I understand where the victims might have the right to feel vengeance, whether it works or it's not right or anything.

that that's the beauty about the states. Some states can have it, some states can't. If killers want to kill in a state where they don't have it, and that's important to them. Maybe that's what they need to do. But you know, I think the moral implication of what these people do. I just personally believe, And there's a lot of people that believe like me, there's a lot of people that don't. I don't care whether one state does or it doesn't. I don't care if some people

can are good attorney and some can't. When the evidence of these types of murders is overwhelming, I don't care. Those people need to go and listen. I feel I felt the same way since I was sixteen seventeen years old. People that are that that Theodore Bundy needed to go. Overwhelming evidence. The clown guy, you know, killed thirty three boys. He doesn't need to be drawing breath. These people need to go. The world is a much better place when

these people depart. So morally, I think it's a good thing. We may not have it always until people can say, well, you know, believe me. Sometimes Bundy had good attorneys. Bundy, you know, he just kind of torpedo himself. He could have gotten life. It was all to him. But the thing of it is, when they're like this, I just think they need to go. But like I say, a lot of people don't don't feel that way. It's been so settled with me. I'm fifty nine years old. Stuff

was settled when I was a teenager anyway. But this book the one story that's really we talked about my mother's love. I actually lived next door to these people. They lived in my neighborhood. And what is really interesting about the Margaret's Science, Now Margaret Science, we left that home. If you look in the book, if you look at the picture, it shows her their home. But if you look at the house right next to it, that was our house. Wow. And both homes were in the picture.

And they moved in about I don't know, eight or ten months before we moved out and moved a couple of miles away. But I remember Margaret and I didn't really talk. I remember seeing her. And she has an older son that was not that did not die, and daughter, and I remember them. And then and then there was the two youngest children that passed away that they were not born yet, so I didn't know them well. But then when this thing happened, you know, uh, we had

sold the house. My parents had sold our house to the lady that's now in the chapter. And the kids ran when they couldn't get in the house, when they couldn't get in the bathroom door where their mother was.

quiet neighborhood. It's a really nice neighborhood to this day. It's very very peaceful and quiet and very nice. Not the kind of thing would you ever have. And the woman obviously had mental problems, and her husband was a computer salesman and he was out. He was just a normal guy, and the family was exposed at all normal

and they were planning on taking a trip together. But she was plotting and planning and nobody knew it because I don't think they could ever figure out where she got this nice and it came in a box, so she bought it new, and back then the only place to really get this was to get in your car.

She'd want to take a right, go up Lowell at Bartstown Road, and go straight down Bartstown Road, take a right seventy eight miles down into downtown Louisville and visit the Army Navy shops, which I don't even know if they have any more of these any now. And you can get these cabron iles another place. Back then, that's really the only place that you could go. So she must have done that a number of weeks before then and was planning this, and then she picked the morning

and one of these two children just savage. And of course I've got pictures of the crime scene. I couldn't publish anything. It's graphic, but and I wouldn't but anyway, it's just it's one of those things that walks a neighborhood and it doesn't get over. It just takes years. And then doctor Strange and the severed head, which is a very strange kid, came bag. His name is Strange. Come on, I can't make this. I can't make this

stuff up. That's hysterical. But you know he's a research scientist, right he's got a bunch of letters after his name, decides to go into the ministry. You had a first wife died. He comes to a church in Louisville, well I known church in Louisa ninth and zero meets a lady named Castleing O'Hara. They fall madly in love, and he's got a couple of kids and beautiful wedding that's really nice, and you know, the proverbial marriage made in heaven. I had to do these punspan and you have to

predure me it. But within two years she's dead and he's charged with her murder, and you know, if you get into the story, it's just it's exceedingly strange. And what he ends up doing. He decapitates her with an axe and buries her head in the in their vegetable garden, and enlists his son to help him do this, not in the murder but in the bearing of her. So

it's a very very, very strange stories. It's like when you say, hello, these these stories are just like right out of the Twilight Zone, and yeah, they're very strange.

of show that the twist is incredibly a twist. It's not twist is an understatement, and it really is horror, it really because that's what Twilight's don't were. There were fictional horror stories. But I think what this is is that we show that you definitely demonstrate that it's much stranger than fiction, but it's also very much like a modern horror story in set in the last fifty years.

and that. Yeah, that that took what of of of real evidence that that I had that I was able to photograph while I was out there, And and you know some of the homes. So and the another book that Wild Blue Press is going to do has to do with uh other Kentucky murders and and and they're justice bizarre to some strange things. And you know, people do some very diabolical things, but like I say, sometimes they're with a real twist. And that's what I kept

finding over and over again with these Kentucky cases. And the funny there was you know that there were other cases I could have chosen. You can only write so many, and I had to pass over them that were almost equally as strange. I almost had to grab us from a lot that were they were I consider to be the best one, the most interesting ones, the ones that had the most that they were unique and they had that sort of twist to them.

just want to say this for the audience. If anybody's going to have it of not locking their car doors or their or their house door, you know, their homes at night, do so because you know, you know, Richard Chase tried to get to the home once and and the door was locked. And he went to the next house and murdered somebody. And they asked him about that, and he said, well, you know, they didn't want me in.

The door was locked. Of course he was just he was not legally insane, but he was deeply mentally ill. He wasn't clear thinking like a Theodore Bundy. But there's a lot of people can do to protect themselves and not become victims. And I think the more people know about how this stuff works, the better off they'll be.

Thanks for leaving your window open or your door open.

of people did so. When I was talking to the Kenny attorney, I said, is this true that before these murders occurred, a lot of people in these neighborhoods would keep their doors unlocked. He said, yeah, a lot of them would. To me, that is absolutely shocking. There isn't any way. I've been this way all my life. There isn't any way I'm going to sleep in the house or any place and not lock my doors. It's not

going to happen. But some people think that way, and lo and behold, something evil comes their way and something diabolical happens right near them. People have a tendency to think those things happen elsewhere, but they need to understand. But they apparently a lot of people don't. Those terrible things can happen anywhere at any time, and people need to take the proper precaution. But I like to say, my wife knows this. I don't get shocked very often.

But just hearing the guy tell me that people in these neighborhoods in this day time, a lot of them would not lock their door, I thought, man like another world. To me, I would never think that way. But people think that everything's normal until it's not. And unfortunately, when it's not normal, it's if it's haintous, if it's diabolical, it's going to it can have some really bad effects

for those involved. So it would be whose people to, you know, lock their doors and if possible me or comfortable with it, arm themselves and just pray that nothing bad ever comes your way behind If it does, you're prepared for it. That's not like to point out in the book. Just be prepared. Just do what you can do to help yourself and lock up. Yeah.

Bundy at a site called executed today dot com. And if you go to execute it today dot com if you're interested in Ted Bundy. They did a Q and A with me back in January of two thousand and nine, before my book The Bunny Murders were published, and you know, I hung around and answered some questions and it's got my witness. I thought there'd be twelve fifteen questions. Well we're over seven thousand posts now and yeah, really it's

probably probably one of August threads on the Internet. And it's been over five years and people still ask questions and we have slow periods and we have very busy periods where people are asking questions, and so if anybody has interest there, they can find me there. They can find me on Facebook, and pretty soon you'll be able to find me at Wild Glue Press.

I will Fred Rosen of course. So yeah, it's a great bride stable and great guys and writing some great books. So I want to thank you very much, Kevin.