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You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good evening. Serial killer Herbert Mullen terrorized the Santa Cruz, California area at the same time the infamous co ed killer Edmund Kemper was active. Unlike Mullen killed anyone young, old men, women, children, and even a priest in a confession booth. He didn't adhere to a particular mo The Deadly Voices told him to kill, and he killed. The book that we're featuring this evening is Deadly Voices, The true story of serial killer Herbert Mullens, with my special guest,
journalist and author C. L. Swinney. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview once again. Chris Swinney, Hey buddy, how are you doing. Thanks for another invite to this awesome show. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. You become a standard in the with the program, a favorite, one of the favorites, with the amazing cases that you do cover in your books.
So here we are again this evening Deadly Voices true story of serial killer Herbert Mullen, one of the most infamous killers of all time and also very interestingly was we talked about in the introduction, tying in at the same time as the infamous co ed killer Edmund Kemper. Why this book? What really interested you about this case enough to want to take the effort to write a book.
Well, this, this gentleman here, Herbert, he kind of fascinating to me because I have a narcotics background in law enforcement and also an interest in schizophrenia, especially paranoid schizophrenia. In this case with Herbert kind of combines both, and you don't always hear a lot of serial killers.
That combined both.
And then it was kind of even more fascinating that an area close to my my my current home and to my heart, the Santa Cruz area that one time was actually known as Murderville, USA. And so putting all those three together is what really got me. I'm interested in this case. So that's why I took it on.
Now where this occurs as Santa Cruz, California, and you're talking about we first introduce when you talk about Herbert Mullen. His father was Brian Mullen or partner Bill Mullen, and he was a World War Two hero. And his mother was named Jean, and he was the youngest of two children.
And you say, and this is important later and we won't give it away, but this date his birth April eighteenth, nineteen forty seven, also marked the anniversary of the nineteen oh six San Francisco earthquake and also the day Albert Einstein died. Anyway, you talk about his early life, So you talk about the family moving in nineteen fifty two
just outside San Francisco. Tell tell us a little bit what the family life was like, what was Bill senior like, What did you discover about his early life and his upbringing? So Herbert had kind of a really.
For me, you know, looking at serial killers, he had an uncharacteristic bringing upbringing because he was actually in a somewhat nurturing and loving home.
You know, it's not the classic.
While this kid was raised in a terrible environment and then turned into a serial killer.
That was in the case with Herbert.
I mean, his father.
Was a World War Two veteran. He was super strict, but he wasn't abusive. He'd play a major role in this case as it unfolded. His mom was caring and kind and loved him tremendously. Herbert was a good looking kid, he was smart, He played athletics, he was super big in football. You know, his dad kind of was transient a little bit. He moved from place to place for a while until kind of found his niche in Fulton,
which is just outside of Santa Cruz. But there's nothing in this case, either from his parents when they were alive and talking about this case, and when Herbert's been talking about this case, especially recently trying to speak to the parole board trying to get released from ione prison, he doesn't ever mention anything about being abused, whether it was sexually or physically or emotionally. And he basically his
childhood was, you know, standard American life. A good kid, did good in school, played sports, family was loving and then just one catastrophic event kind of literally overnight changed Herbert as a person.
You talk about this traumatic event, if you say, he was really athletic and very poper and had a lot of friends, and was very good at football, really loved football. And he had a friend named Dean Richardson. What happened that you say really is an important turning for in Herbert's life? Seems yeah, this is.
You know, we talked about serial killers and having a defining moment if you will, that kind of makes them snap, and and for Herbert it was his best friend, Dean Richardson. So these guys graduated high school together.
I think it was called San Lorenzo Valley High School. They graduated together.
Their basically whole lives.
Were in front of him.
They were super tight. You know, we all have buddies that we can remember back in the day where he just you know, he played hide and go seet together and tag. I don't know he does that anymore, but you know we used to. You know, you have people he hung out with. Well, Dean was his best buddy, his best friend. They were kind of inseparable and shortly after they graduated high school. Dean actually was out taking a spin in his car and he actually crashed his
vehicle and passed away. And it's just, you know, the community was tight, the community was shocked, but nobody took it worse than Herbert. He completely lost his mind after the incident and ended up locking himself in his room for almost two weeks, at which point he built he was in the process of building a shrine to Dean. And that was kind of the event that that basically set this whole story going forward. Was with the passing of his best friend.
We forgot to mention that he had met someone that's important to this story then and later in this later in the story named Loretta, and it was his high school sweethearts. And so after this, after odd behavior in these shrines to his best friend, Dean, he tells Loretta something that's very odd as well, and just the beginning of odd behavior from people that seem to think they know him.
What does he say to her, I'm not entirely remembering what you're talking about, but I know that he he began kind of fascinated with the whole concept of the occult. So he basically started saying that he was hearing voices that God was speaking to him. He also was interested in uh using narcotics, and he started to experiment with marijuana at first, but then he unfortunately was exposed to LSD. So I can't remember exactly what she said, if you could, well.
Said he broke up with her. He broke up with her early, and he said, oh, was that about the feelings for homosexuality? So he said he was homosexual. So so then yeah, talk about its.
Good.
Oh yeah, that was a big deal though, because go ahead, but I keep cutting you off. Go ahead, no, go ahead.
So the thing with him being homosexual actually was a huge thing for Loretta because at some point when they first got together and throughout high school, there was some talk about how they were going to settle down and have a family and stuff, and that whole mention of being homosexual really caught her off guard.
But he didn't want anybody else to know.
So it's kind of a secret that he had. And he actually would end up having some sexual encounters with men, but her and Loretta and him were not finished then at that point they'd still have a tenuous relationship for several more years.
Yes, you talked about this back and forth and then other incidents later with Loretta, you talk about this experimentation with LSD, and he also we talked about his father being a World War Two veteran hero. What does he from LSD and just I guess disagreements with his father, with his parents, what did he believe in and what did he move towards in college as a result of LSD. So when he was experimenting with marijuana and got some that was laced with LSD, his whole mind kind of shifted.
He had a lot of fallout with his father.
They had a lot of arguments, no physical battles, but a lot of verbal arguments. He started experimenting with Buddhism and again he got sucked into this occult thing with the supernatural, and actually he Herbert tried to join the military and he kept getting kicked out, and so he wanted to make his dad proud, I think, but he couldn't get in. And then he just switched gears completely. He decided that, you know, a different way of looking at life would be better for him.
He kind of shined off the system, if you will. He was not a big fan of.
America for a certain period of his life because he couldn't be a marine, and he couldn't get into the coast Guard, and he couldn't get into the army, although he kept trying. And so he kind of got into this whole thing with with Buddhism and looking at different areas of religion, and he kind of used that as a kind of thing to kind of piss off his dad because he knew his dad was who was not going to be supportive of that.
Right. You talk about him being also turning into really too and later he may have just done part of it at least to piss off his father. As you say he was a conscientious objector to the war. And also talking about Loretta being yeah, being back and forth with the Loretta too, that there was a time when he was engaged to Loretta and then he broke off the engagement to Loretta. He was telling people was bisexual. But you say that she broke off this because of his drug use. Yeah, So they did that.
They did cat and mouse for almost a year and a half and she tried to stick with him, but he just was not the same person she knew. And he did tell her that he was homosexual and He did have some homosexual ideation for sure, and he was experimenting, but at some point he started getting So Herbert was never a violent person until a little bit after these incidents that were talking about. He was more the guy who was the life of the party, the class clown,
always known to be smiling and laughing. Well he was, you know, he made a complete one eighty and now he was being aggressive, angry, short with Loretta, and even though she had tried to stick by him for almost a year and a half, I think her probably friends in her heart, said hey, this is not good, and so she actually was the one who called it off, which was the first time she had actually done that. So I think it was another event where Dean passed
away his best friend. He's experimenting with drugs, he's experimenting with sexuality. He's view on American culture is a little bit skewed. But now he's been toying with Loretta and now she finally says I'm done and walks away, and I think that kind of slapped him in the face big time.
Reality Chuck.
You talk about too that he had a job at Goodwill Industries, but he quits job and he's because he's going to move to India. Instead, he moves to Sebastopol, California, probably mispronounced that and living in a trailer on his on his sister and his brother in law's ranch. So what happened shortly after him being there? And you also talk about Mendocino State Hospital, So what happens almost soon after he get getting there. Yeah, so he he's he's drifting and he's spiraling out of control.
He doesn't know exactly what's going on. I think the paranoid schizophrenia is fully grasped him. He's upset with his folks and the Goodwill manager was you know, notice that he was basically a star employee and now he's not showing up and he's saying bizarre things. So Herbert kind of he threatened to go to India, but he didn't go. He ends up at his sister's ranch. It's actually his
sister's husband's ranch. But as soon as he gets there, almost within a couple of days, he basically starts asking his sister and her husband if they would like to have sex with him. And obviously his sister who knew him, she's lived with him, her whole life, and she knows him. She knows that that's bizarre, and that's when she makes a call to the police up that way and they they come out and they do what's called a fifty
one to fifty, which is a mental healthhold. So essentially what that means is is the law enforcement officer would show up, they would try to talk to Herbert, and based on what he's saying and how he's acting, he can place them on a hold for their mental health so they can go talk to somebody. So in this case, he went to that hospital and.
That was good and bad.
He got a little bit of stability in in the hospital and he liked it was kind of an earmark for this case because he likes structure, which we'll talk about late her But he also was this was the first time diagnosed with schizophrenia, and he took that as him nobody understanding him, nobody getting him, and he kind of took it personal. He ends up walking out of that hospital, so it kind of it was good and
bad if you will, for that that period. But his sister did not want to completely kick him out, but she obviously could not have her brother there asking to try to have sex with her and her husband. So it was a bad scene.
You talk about too, that he didn't agree with the assessment of doctors and he didn't take the meds, or at least he didn't regularly take any medication that they suggested. Did he.
No?
And he also he did not, and he dove into books. I mean, Herbert was a smart guy. I mean, he was going to college. He took some college classes.
He wanted to do the college thing, and when he heard the term schizophrenia, which wasn't wildly used back then, he started reading books and trying to see, well, you.
Know, what does that mean? How do I deal with it?
But he was extremely adamant that he would not take any medication to try to help balance him, and I think that was what led to all the things that we would talk about later.
He also wanted to change his major because he was in engineering, taking courses to be an engineer, and he wanted to switch, as you say, to something that was quite novel at the time, which was psychology at that time. So realizing that he had heard the term schizophrenia, now, what was his if any run ins with the law or violence at that time other than this odd behavior. Was there any incidents that anybody and was he telling
anybody about any violence whatsoever? Was there any mention of violence from him his first run in that the year, I think it was like the end of nineteen sixty seven.
That's when he he basically drops out of school, becomes a conscientious objective and basically just kind of wants to live on the streets and kind of do his own thing, you know, buck you know, buck the system. And it's it's when he kind of decided that hey, it's me and I'm going to do my thing. And he ends up getting contacted just shortly after. So I think it was like nineteen maybe the beginning or like mid of nineteen sixty eight when he had his first contact law enforcement.
An officer, a local officer in Santa Cruz contacts him on the street, pats him down, find some marijuana on him, and you know, back in nineteen sixty eight, that was a crime, and so he was taken to he was arrested and taken to jail. He went to jail and went to court, wasn't aggressive with the officer, didn't fight,
didn't fight with jail staffs, didn't argue in court. But it was his first kind of excuse me, interaction with law enforcement, and he never mentioned that it rubbed him the wrong way, but there would be more encounters with police that would start to get more violent. After that incident, he was contacted again not too long later excuse me, and he was contacted again. This time he's walking across the street. He's making kind of odd statements to the officer.
The officer thinks he might be somebody suffering from a mental health issue, but he ends up finding a knife on Herbert, and Herbert also gets a little bit aggressive with the officer. He kind of scuffles with him a little bit, the knife comes out. The officer basically says, he go for it. You know, I'll shoot and kill you. And you know, back then, I mean probably even today, but back then they probably would have shot and killed
him if he tried to grab that knife. So kind of changed his opinion, changed Herbert's opinion a little bit about law enforcement. But so we went from you know, he's ession of marijuana to possible mental health issue, armed with the knife.
So it's starting to kind of move in that.
Direction of becoming a little bit more violent.
So it was starting to.
Take on, you know, go in the wrong direction, but nobody really was there to.
Coach him or talk him off the ledge, so to speak.
So kind of got.
It, kind of got worse, it didn't get any better, and there was nobody really kind of watching over him or trying to help him.
You talk about before that too, in nineteen seventy he or in nineteen seventy pardon me, he has continued to do LSD. He gets to Maui with a friend, Pat Brown, and then he's on his own. There, he's introduced to methamphetamine, which doesn't help him whatsoever. And then he's basically in a clinic in Maui and he is diagnosis gezo effectos schizophrenia.
And he stayed there for four weeks. And you say, there is a lot of evidence that this time and a few other times that there is a relative stability, and then he moved seems to move forward in his life. So tell us a little bit about his trying to readmission to Carillo College and some of the instances where he seems to be quite stable and then goes off the rails.
Yeah, so that that was an interesting trip for him because he was going with somebody else that he meant at a kind of a large property fewel on Santa Cruz where there was a lot of folks hanging out kind of like some shanties and tents.
And.
He was accepted there.
But then he started, you know, kind of having some of those odd comments and acting a little bizarre. And one of his friends convinced him to go to Mali with him, but that friend actually left them there and there was some question and it really upset.
It.
Really, it really upset him that his friend would take him out there and leave him there. But he did actually walk himself into a clinic again. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia. At this time, they were using different language
or different variations, if you will, schizophrenia. But whoever was working there had a lot better success at getting him to take his medication, and it ended up that he took his medication, he got a little bit more stable, but the staff there was like, look, you're you're in Maui, your family's out in Santa Cruz. You kind of you need to get home, you know, you need to get stable, and you need to get home and continue you know what you're doing, because you're making a lot of progress.
He kind of doesn't want to do that because he sort of has to admit to his folks that he needs help and he's stuck in Maui.
But he ends up biting the bullet, gets money, goes.
Back to Santa through his area, kind of like you said, gets kind of reconnects with his folks, just temporarily gets.
Into school again a little bit temporarily, but he.
Stops taking his meds, and that again is what was a catalyst for what he's you know what, he's gonna end up doing it, and it's if you understand anything about schizophrenia, these folks have to take medication. There's different medications that work differently for different people. But I can tell you right now, if they do not take their medication, they will do and say things that is not their normal behavior. And that's what ended up happening was Herbert.
He lost the focus of going and being taking his meds, talking to people that could help them, and kind of ended up drifted out back in the streets again, and that's when he got back into narcotics and doing the stuff that he should not be doing.
We talk about his time in the heavy days of the counterculture in nineteen seventy one, San Francisco, no job or money, gets a little crappy place in the Tenderloin area among alcoholics and drug addicts, and you talk about some of the things that he starts believing in based on all the things that he's read about reincarnation and also the actual side effects or the effects of schizophrenia
and the voices. This is a time when he talks or at least later he knows that there's talks about Leonardo da Vinci tell us a little bit about some of the things that are formulating in is a mind based on some of the things he's read, and what idea is crystallizing in his head that he later will use to justify these murders. Yeah, So when he ended.
Up in San Francisco, and I because mid or early maybe may have seven one I think it was, he meets this guy Alan I think his last name was Hanson, and this guy befriends him and says, you know, he basically they immediately hit it off. They have a discussion and they both kind of seemed to share similar thoughts, but their big one was on reincarnation, and Herbert was
experimenting with or not experimenting, but looking into reincarnation. Over the last couple of years now he met somebody who has the same views, but this guy Hanson was super supportive, so he got along great with Herb. They started talking about God, talking about telepathy, that it was okay to have multiple voices in your head talking at the same time. And then it kind of this guy Hanson turned Herbert onto a artwork and many of the books written by
Leonardo da Vinci. At the same time he started looking into Albert Einstein. He started thinking about schizophrenia and the definition of schizophrenia. But it's important to remember that Leonard Leonardo da Vinci thing because one of the books he read on was about medical procedures and how to dissect the human body, and that will be an important fact later.
So he's now coming to.
Grips with multiple voices in his head reincarnation, the fact that he's convinced himself God personally is speaking to him. He's looking into Albert Einstein and believes that since his birthdate fell on his same birthdate, that they shared an obvious connection. And so he's really this is where this is where narcotic use specifically LSD and schizophrenia and living on the streets produces just kind of a time bomb.
You talk about too, that he has heard about local scientists predicting a major earthquake could destroy certain parts of California sooner rather than later. And at that time that was a news story and the scare. So what does Herbert deduce from this, thinking this is a faithful turn of events.
So the earthquake of nineteen oh six really from this point on, basically when he discovers it and starts did a lot of research. He spent a lot of time in the library when he's in San Francisco.
And you know, over the things he into quick.
But that symbolism of the earthquake and what happened, he started believing that God was telling him. At first he said it was just a voice, but then he kind of he said it was God, and later he said he thought it was the devil. But multiple competing voices are in his head and they're telling him, hey, these
scientists are predicting another big earthquake. But the voices are we're telling him, hey, you can prevent the earthquake, so you have the ability kind of like a godlike ability to prevent the earthquake, and he's having these full blown discussions with these voices in his When he finally asks them, well how do I do it? One of the voices and that kind of becomes the driving voice that fuels this whole case. Is the voice comes he needs to
kill people, and it rationalizes. The voice rationalizes that if he he'll save thousands, because if an earthquake comes, thousands, tens of thousands of people will die.
So the voice rationalizes the voice. He rationalizes his desire to kill someone and that person commanding him as who.
He spent a lot of time talking about it when this case came to court and stuff, but he said, originally it was God and a couple documents that I was able to get during the research for this project.
He switched gears.
Completely and said it was the devil, and then he just later started calling it the voice. So he had multiple voices in his head, but this was the one that called the shot, or at least influenced his activity, so it became very powerful.
Right now we talk about you talk about Santa Cruz in October nineteenth or October thirteenth, nineteen seventy two and a fifty five year old man Lawrence white local transient and Herbert driving in his nineteen fifty eight Chevy station Wagon. What does he do? What is the ruse? And then what happens?
Yeah, and so we've talked about, you know, a very tumultuous about four year period where kind of anything goes with Herbert Mollin. But besides the officer of finding a knife on him, for one time when he contacts him, there's no violence. And then this incident here with Whitey just kind of, for lack of better words, it just kind of came out of nowhere. So he's driving along,
Herb's driving along. He's up in the hills, and the hills are important in this case, and we'll talk about him later, but.
He used the hills.
Herbert did too for some reason. When when he was in the hills, the voices would would calm down a little bit. Least, that's how he described it. But he's driving along and he sees this guy. He doesn't know who he is.
He sees a.
A guy on the side of the street. It's a local train the guy that most everybody knows from the area. He passes the guy and it's kind of nonchalant. But as he's pulling away from the guy, voices start arguing basically in his head about the guy, and and Herbert is basically screaming in the car as these voices are going back and forth, but they're basically trying to convince him to kill the guy for no other reason than he just happened to be the guy that he saw
on the side of the road. So it's it's it's kind of it's a tough one to talk about because it just it's it's an innocent man who is just kind of well liked by the community. But but Herbert takes it to another level, so he actually sets up a ruse like you were talking about.
He passes.
Lawrence, his name is Lawrence White.
He passes them, pulls over, and he feigns as though his car he's having car trouble.
So in his mind, it it's back and forth.
Killed this guy, killed this guy. There is one voice saying no, no, no, and there's this battle just basically a battle waging in his head.
But Lawrence, the the unsuspecting guy. He sees the car pull over and.
He's trying to help, so he actually comes up, speaks to Herb and they have a little bit of a conversation. Herb asimke and he maybe check out my motor and White he doesn't know too much about motors and stuff,
but he's trying to be helpful. As he's inspecting the engine bay, he kind of loses track of Herbert, and unfortunately Herbert, the murderous voice in his head take over and he retrieves a baseball bat from behind his seat, walks over and basically plungeons to death Lawrence White right there on the side of the road, for no other reason than the voice told him to do it, and
he was convinced. They're convinced himself that by killing this he was preventing a massive earthquake that would kill tens of thousands of people.
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What he said, But he nonchalantly cleaned up the blood and brain matter from the bad as you write, and he drove away. There were no leads or witnesses to this horrific murder. And later he said it felt good to kill.
You.
Take us to October twenty fourth, nineteen seventy two and Soquel, California, and one of the most disturbing parts of this entire story Mary gwilla Foyle. She's twenty four years old and she's walking towards Cabrillo College for a job interview and she's late, so she hit Sykes. But at the same time, you talk about at that time nineteen seventy two. We know it's a different time, but there were police warnings to hitchhikers because there's hitchhikers decapitated, found decapitated in the
Santa Cruz area at that time. So tell us despite that, a little bit about Mary Gwillifoyle and her encounter with Mullen. Yeah, this was this one.
It was kind of the pinnacle of this this case. And and it's it's all those things where even you and I and everybody, Walt will tell people, you know, warnings, your friends will give you warnings, your family will give you warnings. Sometimes we just don't We don't listen and we don't heed what people are trying to tell us, or we feel like whatever the issue may not impact us directly, but in that area, and I actually it was boots on the grounds over there.
I spent spent a lot of time out there just my personal life.
But when I was right in this case, I went out there and I kind of walked her paths, you know, and just so sort of speak, trying to put myself in her shoes. But temper if we briefly talked about earlier, he was known as the co ed killer. He's working that same area and females were told specifically not to hitchhike. But Mary finds herself basically desperate. She's got to get to an interview.
She's she's a college kid.
She's she's trying to do the right thing. She's trying to get the job and go to classes. You know, she's she's doing it. She's living life.
She's she's doing what we what she wants to do.
But she ends up basically, you know, putting thumb out trying to get a ride.
And I don't know.
How or why, but herbs in the exact area at the right time, sees her pulls over and she she looks at him and basically just gets into the area. They start having a little bit of discussion. He says he'll take her to the to the college, but.
Basically almost after.
He clears the curb, so he picks her up and they pull away. She's having a conversation with him, but his voices are going on in his head. He's not listening to what she's saying. But the same voice that told him to kill Larry Lawrence White is now telling him that this girl needs to die. So he takes her kind of away from the school. Mary starts to get her nervous a little bit. He takes her off to a secluded area.
And then.
She's not sure.
There's not a lot of information because he didn't really describe what he did for parts of this case, and we can't get in her head. But a struggle doesn't sue, and basically he stabs her.
To death, so.
She is not the co ed killer.
But here you go.
You have a young female who was hit shriking is now been stabbed. He stabs her right through the heart, stabs her in the back, and that hunting knife that he was carrying is going to be an interest poor in this case that's been unfolds. But he basically told investigators after the fact that he thought she died on us instantly. He then takes her down down furly put he keeps her in the car, takes her down through the road because now he's kind of thinking he needs.
To dispose the body. But this is the one.
This is kind of the case or the murder in this case that is hard to to stomach. But we talked earlier about how Herb had that interest in Leonardo da Vinci, And you know, Leonardo was a was a brilliant mind, and he also did a lot of stuff with bisection. And another voice in his head, and Herb's head's telling him he needs to sacrifice this girl. He's already killed her, but he's the voice of tone him
he needs a sacrifice her. So he takes her out to a little bit more of a secluded area and he basically starts to dissect her with the same hunting knife. He takes out some of her organs, he hangs some of them on trees nearby, kind of surrounds her body with some of her organs.
And just leaves her there.
I mean, he basically thinks he's made his sacrifice to God and once again by doing so, this one death is going to ensure that tens of thousands of people won't die. It's because of this major earthquake that's coming.
You also talk it's a little bit mixed up as well with he believes after reading a book called The Agony and the Ecstasy Irving Stones biography on Michelangelo, that he also wanted to be a serious artist, and so he needed to dispect the body. And this became this canvas. You say, she became the canvas of a serial killer. We're going to use this up as an opportunity, Chris to stop for a second to talk about sponsor of
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listeners can post jobs on ZipRecruiter for free. That's right free. Just go to ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. One more time to try it for free, go to ZipRecruiter dot org calm slash murder. Now we will last left off. We Finally Mary Gulafoil's Skelton is found, so.
We have.
The beginnings of police finding bodies that they should have been attributed to Herbert Mullen. But as you say that, they're not sure whether there is only one killer, two killers, or a copycat killer. So tell us how police proceed and what does Herbert do afterwards.
So yeah, so Mary's body wasn't found until I think, I think it's February twelfth, So after the actual murder steby twelfth and seventy three, I think, yeah, some of our remains are found and the skeleton is found, takes
them a little bit of time law forcement looking. There was a missing person's report file, so Mary the same evening I think of the day that she was taken by herb But because of all that time that had gone through, are gone had passed, and the fact that they had investigators had determined that her head wasn't decapitated, they weren't sure if it was this person they are calling the co ed killer, or like you said, a copy cal killer, or maybe a third party or sometimes
they thought that maybe the coed killer had an accomplice. So as law enforcements trying to figure that out, they don't have any leads. There's no leads out there in the wilderness where her body was found. Time had taken most of anything tire tracks or blood or anything for law enforcement collect and build a case. And we're also talking about the early so you know, not a lot of that stuff was even happening to any kind of real level back then in law enforcement.
So Herb is free to go about his business and nothing changes.
The voices continue. He has good days and bad days.
He does kind of say that he's gonna walk away from narcotics because he doesn't like how they make him feel. But he's starting to feel guilty about what he's done, and so he ends up going to confession. And this again is just it's like every one of these cases, or every one of these incidents is in this case just it just seems to get worse and worse. But in this case, he ends up going to a confession to a place called Los Gatos, which is if you're
basically north of Santa Cruz. He gets into a church, I think it's called Saint Mary's, is a Catholic church, and he he wants to go confess his sins, and so he runs into a gentleman named Father Henry to May and he's in this discussion. He's he's talking to Father to May. He's not really saying much about anything. He's just kind of in there and making kind of random comments. But eventually Father to May tells him it's okay to talk, and.
Herbert decides to just spill the beans, and so heally.
Literally tells Father to May that he had killed mister White and he's killed Mary. But as soon as he says it, the voices in his head say, now, now you need to kill this guy, because there's some part of Herb's mind that continually tries to put up to him and tries to make sure that he covers his tracks,
so to speak. And now that he's confessed to murders, he's got to take he's got to listen to these voices, and he's got to kill Father to May so he can hear Father to May there's like an odd silence, if you will, and Father Tomay makes a run for it, but her being much younger and more athletic, tracks them down and literally kills him right into right in the church, right on the floor of the church, just kills them, and again he leaves and allegedly there was no there
were no witnesses to the murder and.
He leaves.
And later in this story though, he will tell investigators that.
That father to me actually telepathically told her it was okay to kill him because he knew that killed them he would prevent this massive earthquake and save style. We relives again because kind of interesting how her his mind played that around.
You you talk about this too. That intertwined with this is sometimes a willingness or a need to try to please his father. So he tries to join these cadette cadets, these reserve cadets, ghost guard cadet, and later we have another where he tries to be a marine. But what happens at these where how far does he go? It seems like his hopes are dashed. But you use the one example of it looks optimistic. What happens and what's the what's his reaction from this?
Yeah, so every time he applied for those he was, he was still.
Trying, you know, at least maybe some consciously, to try to please his father. I mean, his dad cared for him, His dad loved him, and.
Sort of his mom and so his sister.
So I think that was another one of the battles in his mind.
As here on this case war On, but he would constantly get sent to the rejection pile because he couldn't have the psychological portions of these application process And you know, I don't think he I don't think he would have passed them had he not murdered anybody. But now he's trying to take psychological exams after killing three people, and I just you know, he's killed three people, He's got multiple voices in his head. He has stepped away a
little bit from narcotics. But I don't know anybody or how anybody could even consider trying to pass a psych exam with three bodies, you know, the three bodies on their conscience.
You know, I just don't don't think. And plus there was no doubt, and there is no doubt in my mind that he.
Definitely suffered from schizophrenia. And I've dealt with hundreds of people in my career who have schizophrenia, and there's no way that they could pass a psychological examination.
And it's just not possible. You talk about not being able to pass a psycho psychological evaluation. But in December, Herbert gets his first license for a gun, doesn't he?
Yeah, And so that kind of is like for me, when I was investigating a case, it was like, uh, oh, you know what, whether what other reason does he need a gun besides wanting to kill somebody?
You know what?
Have the voices the voices finally convinced him to get a gun, you know, because before he was using a baseball bat of a knife, and now he's he's going to get a gun. And when I was putting this the outline of this book together, and when I stumbled upon the fact that he was able to get a firearm, I just kind of cringe because I knew that there was no way it was going to lead to anything positive.
You know, right now you talk about the Kelly Francis and also James Giannia and who introduced him to marijuana. So in January twenty fifth, nineteen seventy three, tell us what happens as a result. Yeah, so this is kind of.
A this whole thing is a just catastrophic really in my mind, because he he decides that herb besides that Jim, the guy who introed him into marijuana and tricked him to use marijuana, had been laced with LSD and then rationalized in his mind that Jim was to blame for the voices and the killings. He rationalized that he needed to make Jim pay and he wanted to find Jim and kill him. And so it was all happening in
the Santa Cruz area, Fulton and stuff. And so he goes to where Jim used to live and stumbles across Kathy Francis and her two sons, and he's basically he's outside.
Of the house.
He's doesn't see any of the cars or anybody that he knows, but any of the cars that are associated to Jim uh, and he's just kind of sitting in the car. And he later told that he was sitting in the car, stroking me firearm and trying to decide and listening to the voices in his head and they're basically saying, Hey, you know, you gotta you gotta find Jim and you gotta you gotta kill him. So he he makes the effort, kind of gets himself motivated.
He goes up to the.
Front door to knock on this house and it's not Jim. He kind of opens his door.
He's kind of stunned.
He sees this woman named Kathy, and he sees I think he mentioned that he saw one child. He later told police he saw one child at the house, he didn't know there was two. But this lady, she basically says, you know, you know, Jim doesn't live here anymore, he's moved. And the voices kind of start putting together an investigation.
If you will, and say, well, where is he?
Where did he go?
And so this gal Kathy, you know, she just sees this young kid says he's friends with Jim, and so she says, you know, I don't see any harm and letting this person who says he's a friend of Jim's know where he lives. So she gives him the h she tells him where to look. She basically tells him, hey, he moved over here on the other.
Side of the town.
And he's like, okay, thank you, and he leaves. He leaves her there and no harm, no foul. He ends up taking off looking for or she says, Jim lives.
And when he gets to that location, he sees Jim's car, and he knows the car very well.
Because they did drugs in it. He his drugs in it.
They drove around in it for.
A couple of years. So as soon as he sees that, these voices start cheering in his head.
Kill kill, kill, and it's just, you know, the voices saying and this is the one that he never mentioned, that killing Jim would prevent an earthquake. So it's it's unique and we'll talk about it a little bit later. But he immediately gets out of the car, walks to the front door, knocks in the door.
Jim answers it, and immediately Herb pushes his way through the house into.
The main living room area. And Jim, who can see that obviously something's up with Herb, and you know, has this look in his eye, probably of murder. He tries to go upstairs and tell his wife. Now, Jim had just been married, and so he's trying to alert his wife, Hey, something's up. But as he's starts up the stairs, Herb pulls out his gun and shoots him in the back and kills kills his Basically, he.
Used to be his friend and also a drug provider for him.
He doesn't kill him, He didn't those shots, the two shots didn't kill him. In Jim, now, is you know, picture if you will, a scene where he's been shot. He's in excruciating pain. He is dying, and he's slowly trying to make his way if he will to his wife to warn her, and then herb basically walks he kind of falls him for a little bit, and then he walks up.
Behind him and shoots Jim right in the head, just kills him instantly.
After that shot.
I think it's probably going on before, but he says later that after that shot he heard some screaming in the house. He ends up searching the house for the screaming person.
He ends up finding this.
Gat this girl up named Joanne or Joan, and shoots her instantly, just kills her. So he's now got two bodies, you know, Jim and his wife.
Killed him both.
Uh, And then he does something that's just really strange. We know for a fact that Jim was dead, but he then goes after these bodies are dead, there's definitely they're definitely definitely deceased. He retreats his plumping knife and he stabs Jim several times. And I don't know why he did that. He never really talked about it, but.
He Uh. He also goes back to where Jones at and stabs her as well.
But at some point, they're already dead. Now he's stabbing dead bodies. He's convinced that they're dead, and the voices start to calm down, so he cleans himself up a little bit and then starts to formulate a plan on how to leave the house and get away. Oddly enough, nobody called in the shots fired at the scene, and so that's kind of strange to me because it was
not in a rural area. Although Santa Cruis is rule in and of itself, this area there was, there was houses nearby, So I'm not sure I know what he called it didn't call that in. But now herbs got more dead bodies, and now he's leaving it. As he leaves the house, another another voice kicks in again and it starts. Just another terrible part of this case.
He you, I'll discontinue with this because it's so horrific.
Is that.
He realized Kathy Francis was a witness, so he went back Shaja in the head. Then he realized there was he thought one child, one child, but there was a four year old and a nine year old, so they were hiding under their beds. He found them crying and then fascinated them and he had stabbed his friend James thirty five times thirty five times and stabbed Joan numerous times after they were dead. So now these bodies aren't
discovered right away, like you say, very odd. All of these gunshots are not reported, but people Kathy's mother discovers her and calls police. So what do police see? What do they notice about the crime scene itself which is unusual? And are they able at that point to connect the crime scenes? What do they think about it at that point? I remember the the exact things that they were interested in. I know that they were they were at a I know that when.
The mother or the grandmother found them. They lawforcemen had had been working the gym's house for the double homicide, and so there these two guys that were working that scene. There's not a lot of homicide investigators in that county, especially at that time, so they didn't really connect the two. They didn't connect the two scenes right away. They noticed that there wasn't a forced entry at either place, and
so they kind of both scenes. The one connection was, well, maybe the killer was different for each house, but in each scene, the killer maybe knew the victims because there was no forced entry, right, and so that kind of was that was kind of like their their main thing that they were trying to figure out was how could somebody well, first of all, it was just you know, what was the deal with the shooting, and then the numerous data being you know, why go after the women?
They the local police did know that Jim was a drug dealer. There was absolutely no rhyme or reason why Kathy was killed, and to go after the children again just it infuriated law enforcement. But the only thing, although they believed there was no connection between those two crimes, was the fact that there was no forced entry and no items were taken, at least they didn't there was no obvious items that were taken. I think there was a police captain who was quoted as saying that this
thing has a pattern to it. It's not a case of some crazy man running around shooting people.
He never elaborated as to why he thought there.
Was a connection, and it wasn't all. It wasn't until a little bit later did investigators figure out that that Kathy was living in Jim's old house, and so they thought maybe there was connection that way, but none of them knew or had any reason to believe that a previous drug Kurkiser had talked to Kathy found out where Jim lives, killed Jim and his wife, and they went back and killed her and her kids just because she knew about it.
So it was very.
Disgusting, extremely frustrating for law enforcement. And as all that was kind of coming together, as law enforcement was working these double homicide scenes or triple one and one and double on the other, Herbert just took off, went out towards a place called the Henry Cowell State Park and went out to the wilderness because now.
He needed a break.
That's what he kept saying when he was interviewed by law enforcement, that he needed a break, So he went out to the woods to try to basically get them press.
Just before that, unless I'm getting the chronological order wrong, there's also February fifth, Alice Louie lou and Rosalind Thorpe disappear. Next day, a seventy nine year old widow raped and strangled and left in her bathtub. So by month end by month THEND you say, by the end of February, six more victims plus a few days after Louis and Thorpe are found then you talk about the teens drinking, tell us about this scene with these young teenagers at this park.
Yeah, and those mentioned those murders you mentioned were were related to ed Kemper And because.
Of the high rate of murder. That's how Santa Cruz, which.
Is now kind of a laid back beach community if you will, you know, was at one time called Murderville, USA. When I found that out, I just I've lived in the very a long time when I visited that area, maybe thirty or forty time, and just hard to believe that that area could be known as that. But basically law enforcement was patching their head, had no leaves on any of these things. But obviously the public was the outcry was huge. It was getting international attention about all
these murders. And you know, two serial killers worked in the same area as just I don't know, I actually don't know except for candems where two guys were working at the same time, like as a poo that two separate serial killers were worked in the same area at the same time. So it's made this case even more unique.
But when herb gets out to.
The out into the hills, he runs across these four kids and he he had a Herb had a strange affinity towards protecting the environment. He felt like he was a protector of Earth, and he felt that his were preventing earthquakes, which prevented damage to Earth, and he kind of felt this oneness, if you will, with Earth. And
so he stumbled upon these kids. And these are youngsters, I think, nineteen eighteen nineteen year olds, I think if I remember, and Herb sees these kids, you know, eighteen nineteen year old kids camping, you know, I thought they shouldn't and they probably had a lot of trash, and they weren't probably taking care of the viroron if you will. And so Herb sees them. He doesn't necessarily have any inclination of killing him, but he tries to convince them
that he's a park ranger. And so he kind of comes into the campground, tells him, Hey, I'm a park ranger.
So what about the park ranger? He says he's a He says he's a park ranger. But what is there? What is their response to that? He tells them to leave, and they tell him he needs to leave. They didn't they didn't respect him at all.
They didn't.
They didn't believe he was a park ranger, and they basically just say, hey, why don't you kiss off and get out of here. Herb makes a mantle note that they had a rifle with them, and you know, he's basically not looking to the tangle.
So he's rolling and the voices aren't going. But as soon as he turns the leave and kind of circles.
Around and watched these, the voice is kick in. He then believes, and this is we talked about earlier, that he can telepathically speak to each one of those campers and he basically has a discussion with them about, Hey, is it okay if I kill you guys? Now, remember he's telepathically doing this, and he.
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Because later that each kid told him, yes, you can kill us, which obviously did not happen, but he circles around, gets into a position of advantage, springs him to the camp ground area. He knows that there's a kid closest to the rifle. He takes him out first, and then he basically systematically killed the three other kids as they try to run for their lives from this crazy man, and.
He just kills them all.
He later said that he thought about dissecting their bodies, and he wanted to do that because they had respected him. So it wasn't because he wanted to be an artist, and he wasn't trying to be like Michaelangelo or.
D Vinci or anything.
It was just basically he was mad that they disrespected him, so he was going to mutilate their bodies, but.
He didn't.
He literally left all of the campsite the same, but he took the rifle, and that's like the first time he's committed a theft or taken a piece of evidence, if you will, from a crime scene, and it actually plays an important role toward the end of the case. But again, voices told him to kill these kids, but it wasn't the voice, so to speak, that was convincing him to kill them to protect others from an earthquake. This one was he telepathically communicated with the.
Victims and they all volunteered to be killed.
So it was very, very strange, you write.
Six days later, Mary Gwillifoyle's dissected body was found in Santa Cruz Hills. Friensic specialists found human intestines on a tree branch, and police assumed she was killed by Edwin Kemper. Twelve murders in four months, and nine murders in less than two weeks, and not a single lead or a suspect at all. But you talk about and this is
a fascinating coincidence and amazing odds against event ever happening. Eventually, after killing his mother and fleeing to Colorado, Kemper called the Santa Cruz Police Department, turned himself in immediately, confessing to eight murders. So now police ask about the other murders. What do they think after Kemper cooperates and gives them details about the eight murders concerning these other murders, So yeah, is like basically had it.
He's uh, he's he's on the phone with with law enforcement he's given up details of the murders that he's committed, and there's no doubt that he committed and based on his knowledge of the murders. But as he's as you know, they got this guy on the phone, they're trying to figure out where he is, and he's kind of screwing them a little bit. But they started asking him about these other murders and happily they kind of wished it was him so they could close out these cases. And
they were only looking for one person. But as they're having this discussion with him, and they did not know about the campers yet because they hadn't been found, but they had all the other the murders that Herbert had committed, he tells him no, and you know, I had nothing to do with those, and.
It kind of took the.
The wind of the sales, if you will.
On one hand, law enforcement is absolutely ecstatic that they have a person who is confessing to a murders in their town or in their area, and it's willing to turn himself in, which he actually does, which was just bizarre, but he turns himself in. But so they have one guy in Sussy, but now they know for sure that there's somebody else or multiple people to meeting, multiple murders
still in the same area. So it just kind of was a gut shot for law enforcement because as they're trying to figure out, well, now do we do how do we work it? And they dedicate a lot of their resources to the person to go get temper. They still have a crew trying to figure out who committed the other murders. That gives herb time to do another murder. So it just it just gets continues to.
Get worse, yes, you say. February thirteenth, nineteen seventy three, three in Santa Cruz, Fred Peri is seventy two years old, a veteran prize boxer as well. Herbert is going to get some firewood for his family, for his parents and he hears the voices again, so tell us what he does, and very much different than all the other cases, there is a witness, So tell us about Fred. What does he do and what does the witness seem able to provide the police.
Yeah, this was the final blow, if you will, in this case. And well, Fred was a military man. I'm a huge fan of military because I was too much of a sissy to join, so I always regretted that. But he's also a boxer and well loved in the community, and he's just out, you know, living in entire life and weeding. Unfortunately, Herb drives by, sees this guy weeding, and instantly he hears a voice. And he later said
he have for uppraving to kill again. But in this case it wasn't the voice that we've grown to understand a little bit with the whole you know, if you kill this guy, we'll save everybody because of the earthquake. This one was a reference to his father, and he said later that he was telepathically communicating with his dad as he drove by and looked over and saw Fred. And he claims his dad told him, because you said he was, he was going out to get wood, firewood.
And I remember, here's a guy, Herb, who has killed numerous people, yet he's back with his folks kind of living quote unquote sort of a normal life, kind of rolling along, if you will. But he's a full blown murderer, imperial killer. So he's out fetching wood. But anyway, he later says the dad told him that if he did, he could not deliver a stick of wood until he
killed somebody. So he said, he argued with this voice about killing his own uncle, this guy he knows, but the voices argued back and forth and said, just kill anybody.
So he ends up driving by Fred.
He passes Fred, stops his car, pulls out the rifle that he stole from the kids that he killed up in the hillside, winds up said and shoots him and kills him, and then almost like without a thought, gets into the car, puts the rifle back over on the seat, and slowly drives away, I mean like two to three miles, doesn't tear off, doesn't try to elude anybody, just kind of.
Slowly pulls away.
But like you mentioned, there was a witness to this one, and that was huge. That was kind of a basically after so many murders, finally a lead. So it broke the case kind of wide open.
Well, she also got the direction of the vehicle, the make of the vehicle, description of the witness, but even more importantly, license plate number. So soon after, you say, a police officer notices spots of the vehicle. And how dramatic was this, uh, this takedown, this arrest of moments, you know, you know, you'd like to say it was a a tagy shootout and who.
Was shot and killed and that's the end of the story. But it's super uneventful, he basically, And it's kind of interesting to me that Ed Kemper called after years of doing what he was doing and turned himself in. And herd Dator said that he kind of was tired of killing and being on the run, if you will, and just kind of gave up. So this sir uh sees it, sees the car he's responding to a short spired call, rolls up, takes down the car, emiliately, puts ferb and custody and puts him.
Back to his corn.
Finds a gun, finds the rifle, finds a handgun, finds that pocket knife that he used on many of the murders.
And they booked this guy.
In the in the jail for the Fred Perez shooting, still not knowing right away that this person that they arrested and killed for this quote unquote random murder in Santa Cruz was actually their serial killer that had killed all those other people. Because there's Uh, as this thing unfold, it just gets more and more bizarre.
As soon as he's in custody right too. That they asked him, would you like an attorney or would you like to call somebody? And he would just break out laughing uncontrollably, and then suddenly yelled silence and said things like you people were responsible for the three million people killed in World War two. Yep, yeah, I mean he
just kind of you. You talk about yeah, you talk about what they found once they kicked the door, kicked the door down in his apartment, tell us some of the things that they found and what they get kind of the evidence, what had tied them to things that they didn't know previously. What did they find in this apartment and what kind of evidence did they find there to tie them to other murders.
Yeah, so that was that was an interesting thing.
So they get a search for and they when they were trying to talk to about the police station, he was blowing their minds.
He just was all over the place.
He had weird tat use one I think said legalized acid, and he talked in rhythm and he would he I mean, he he basically sleeped out The investigators. They didn't know what what the hell they had to be honest with you, but they'd serve a search corn at his place, and.
They I think they find bible, which they tracked down later to to the church where father Tomay had been killed. They found a an address book listing with James's uh recent address. So, you know, they they like, you know, like, holy crap, We've got a double homicide up there that we.
Have no no idea.
And now we're serving a search warrant at this guy's house who killed Fred Perez. And now there's this And so they found a lot of newspaper clippings of all the killings.
So it was kind of like a.
Trinket collector, if you will. Some of these serial killers like to keep trinkets of what they've done. They found a note that he had written that was just kind of all over kind of it just kind of was weird because they here's this little guy. He's he's uh, he's a diminutive man, is what they.
Described him as.
But they start doing ballistics on his uh, his handgun, and it matches the killings, or at least some of the killings, and so they just they're starting to build this case and as each one is, each piece of evidence that has a connection to some of these murders, they start adding them to his total, if you will, and they start thinking, you know, he's responsible for for
quite a few of these murders. I mean, they started looking at Joan, which was Joan and Jim Kathleen, the two boys, you know, two little kids fathered to May and uh, I think, as he's in custody when they first picked him up, they law enforcement discovers the four campers up there up in the hills, and so you know, here, here you go. You got ed camper and custody who's confessed to eight murders, and he's the co ed killer, one of the most disgusting serial killers of our time.
Now you have another guy who kills Fred Prez, and now you've linked him at least circumstantially to a couple other murders.
Now he's a serial killer.
But now as there as he's in Customer, you find.
Four more bodies, and you know, just.
They didn't know what to think.
They were kind of hoping that maybe Herb had killed the kids up in the campground, but they didn't know for sure, and they had to try to build their case and put it together.
So it was it was a very challenging case to.
Put all these things together.
I think I included in the book a little excerpt for one of the Q and A is one of the interrogations of Herbert, and it just it signifies or it demonstrates how lucid he could be in one moment, how off he could be in another. But they really had to do a lot of work to put these murders together and put them on Herbert Mullen and lo and behold, as they're building their case and dealing with it, you have Ed Kemper in one cell and you have.
Herbert Mullen in the other. And Herbert Mullen was was bullied unbelievably by Ed Kemper, and I talked about that a little bit in the book too. Yeah, he was trying to bully him psychologically, physically six foot nine. And the guards thought it was let areas that these two guys would be back to back cellmates.
Enough for.
Well some very very interesting back and forth, and so also that this was going to be that the judge determined that they needed to see his decompetency to be able to stand trial. So there was two psychiatrists, court ordered psychiatrists, and then As a result, they said, well, now we need to have three, three independent psychiatrists. What
was the diagnosis from all three of those psychiatrists. Yeah, so he Originally Herb tried to represent himself in court and the judge was like, absolutely not, it's not going to happen. So he gave him steenamployed attorney, and that was a riot act, if you will.
In court.
It was very difficult for God to get done because Herb would randomly blot out, blab out stuff.
But he was given quite a few psychological evils.
And every single one of them came back saying that he was paranoid schizophrenic.
They all all three people, and they.
They did not argue about him being paranoid schizophrenic. They sometimes argued about how well it would be, how severe the case of paranoid schizophrenia was, but without a doubt all three agreed that he was suffering from schizophrenia and he had some sort of serious mental illness, which today, if that came up, that may get somebody off of murder.
But back in that time, there was no way that the judge, that the DA's office, anybody was gonna let Herbert slide for what he had done, even if he was having a mental illness, if you will.
But as you raised at, what happened at trial was that they broke this down and took great, great care in examining very carefully his statements as to assigning his guilt, and he did make damaging statements about things like revenge. Rather than sticking to his story that he killed all these people to ward off a potential earthquake. There was other motivations, it seemed, and the idea of the magnoton
rule of not knowing right from wrong. But then there was issues of whether this person not fitting the legal definition of insanity from doing things like covering up their crimes and doing things like eliminating witnesses which would not be consistent with the unorganized will say and uncaring insane mind.
Yeah, and that was key because you know, the defense psychologist said that Herbert was insane, the prosecutions psychiatrist said that he was sane. But then they had that third party that you were talking about.
In his testimony.
Crushed Herbert's criminal case because he made it very clear that Herb's motivation for some of the murders was what he called pure hatred and because of the pure hatred motivation and the fact that he took steps to disguise what he had done and eliminate witnesses. You know, the main one you're talking about was revenge.
He he told the court that Jim introduced him to LSD and so that ruined his life.
So he took revenge and that that statement and what after, Charles Morris said, which was the third kind of independent party, if you will. That's what was used to convict him. That was what was used to convince the court that he was not insane. He knew, at least at some point during these killings Freeze what he was doing was wrong and he was going to be held accountable for it.
Another interesting feature to this unusual feature is Herbert demanded to take the stand. So tell us what that was characterized by and how much did it help or hinder him in what he did say when he did take the stand, and what did he try out? What did he say as a defense on the stand. He was all, if I remember correctly, he was all over the place. He demanded to go on the stand. His attorneys did not want to go on the stand. But when he got up there, he kind of uh kind of ruled
the court. You know. He liked he liked that everybody was was looking at him. He he liked that attention.
But he went on a rampage blaming everybody. He blamed his family, his friends, UH, teachers, the military.
And then he started again.
He would have those moments of being very clear and then moments of kind of what the hell are you talking about? You know, he started talking about he'd say stuff like I am chosen as a designated leader of
my generation. He started talking about the Einstein connection, uh, and reincarnation and how he was you know, people were consenting to his killings, and he spoke to him telepathically, and everybody just was like Jesus, there's a guy who dresses up nice and can speak very convincingly at certain points,
but then he just goes on these tangents. And so it really hurt his case because they could see as he his demeanor and anger and frustration would tour out in the courtroom when he was trying to when he took the stand, it.
Just was obvious that he could he could easily kill somebody, you know, because he would quote unquote snap. Now, in the end, what did the jury conclude, how did the court case go, what was the he was charged for ten murders initially a first degree for ten, not the other three. Tell us why that wasn't the case, and also how it ended up in terms of shaking out in terms of actual charges and convictions for murder.
Yeah, so he did not get charged with all of the murders, and that was a unique part of this case too, And in the fact that it was.
Believed at some point, at least with in the beginning stages that.
Uh he and I find this hard to believe, but but this is what the court says, but it's documented in the court case, but that the some of the crimes were a passion in somewhere he was not completely lucid and aware of what he was doing, which, you know, if I was the defense attorney, I'd be trying to convince the jury that if my if my client being Herbert, was you know, quote unquote insane when he killed a couple of people, how is he sane when he killed the other people?
Right? Right?
So I think it really muddled the court case and confused people. But as he tried, as his defense attorney, tried to convince the jury that.
He you know, this guy was was was being framed.
And that he had a mental health issue and just needed help and he would go on his meds.
It didn't work.
And Herb, as they were trying to as these two, you know, the prosecution the defense attorneys were giving their closing statements. You know, traditionally, one side says their peace and the other side says their piece and that's the end of it. The case rest with the jury.
Uh. That wasn't the case with this one.
Because as they as both of them tried to represent their cases about Herb, he would interject, he would he would scream uncontrollably, he would make odd sounds, he would interrupt everything.
That he could.
But in in the end, the jury found him guilty of two council first degree murder, which was for Jim, him and Kathy. H So strangely to think about this, He's convicted the first screa murder for killing Jim, but not his wife. He's convicted the first screamer for killing Kathy, but on her two sons. And to me, especially as a law enforcement member an investigator, I just don't get it.
But I wasn't there.
I don't know how it went that way, but they decided that eight of the other murders were second degree murders because they concluded, the jury concluded that he killed on impulse and were not premeditated. So that's why he kind of skated some of those charges.
Now, as shocking as that is for some people, but legally they're likely even whether there was never mind, likely there was a justification why they couldn't get those first degree murder convictions, but they got ten. Later you talk about there was some other movement and four charges for the other three, But you also talk about the idea of that he is still eligible for role. The sentence
that he's given gives them an eligibility for parole. Tell us when that first eligibility for parole was and when the next one is.
Yeah, So in California, if you're convicted of murder and sentence to life in prison, you will have a parle hearing. In the original court documents, it was supposed to be twenty twenty, which obviously we're coming up.
To real quick.
When that court hearing or that court date.
Was set and that sentence was set, things have changed in California almost you know, night and day. I mean, you can really commit some serious heinous crime in California not get much time. And as a result, any cases previously are now objected to the new laws. And so in two thousand and six, so fourteen years prior to that twenty twenty date, he had herb had his first review board and it's called a border prison terms. They
sit you down with three or four other people. And at that first hearing, he tried to explain that he had changed and stuff, but he couldn't answer any of the questions, didn't have any game plan as to what he would do if he came out, and so the board said, well, we don't think it's time for you to be free yet.
So they declined to allow him to.
Leave, and so he you know, it kind of was a bummer for him. And you know, I don't feel bad for him at all.
I mean, he he murdered numerous people, and you know, I think he kind of got off with those second degree murder charges versus first degree charges. But he also had a hearing two thousand and eleven, so it was five years after that hearing, and so again same thing.
He came in the court. He was or he came to the hearing, he was.
A little bit more better prepared. He started to say some of the buzzwords that these prole hearings are review boards want to hear, which is, you know, I've changed, I take full accountability for my actions.
I want to get a job, I want to find a place to stay.
I want to be a successful, contributing member of society. So he kind of hit the buzzwords you know, that they wanted to hear, but he still was not able to.
You know, explain really and convince them that he was prepared.
To go.
And so the review board we said, hey, we appreciate what you're trying to do. We appreciate that you're you're doing okay.
And when I say okay, he wasn't a He had a few incidents.
In prison that I mentioned in the book that the review board brought up. But he's eligible again in twenty twenty one, which is not too far away.
I don't know if.
He'll get released. He still doesn't really have.
A game plan as far as you know what he's going to do, But I don't know. We'll see.
California is very very interesting on how they view criminals now, got right now, and so I don't know if he's going to get that chance. I think he'll be around maybe seventy three or four in twenty twenty one, so you know, he's he's physically not going to be able to do quite.
You know, too much.
I don't know if he'll just go, if he comes out, if he goes on welfare, and you know, the citizens take care of him tax dollars. I'm not sure, but I have.
A feeling based on everything in this case and the fact that how it went down and everything around it, and so many families and friends in the community impalted by it.
I just don't really see him getting a pearled anytime soon.
I think people will be happy to hear that. I want to thank you very much, Chris cl Swiney for coming on and talking about Deadly Voices, the true story of serial killer Herbert Mullen. It has been fascinating, of course, Herbert Mullen, Edward Kemper, you can't get more prime example the most shocking killers in true crime history. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about this book, Deadly Voices. For those that might want to contact you, look at other work. You have a
Facebook page, website. Tell us a little bit about how people might look at other books and contact you so desire. You can catch me on Facebook, cl Swinney. You can catch me on Amazon, cel swinny, pretty much all the social media sites.
I'm under cel swiney. When I do these shows, I use a book and I kind of make some notes and I sign it. So if maybe one of your listeners, if you want to maybe the first person to email me or something, I'll give you my email address. I'll send it out free assigned copy of my book. But my email address is the cl swinney at yahoo dot com, t H E C L s w I N n E y at yahoo dot com. First person to email me, I'll send them a free signed copy.
Of this book.
Sounds great. Thank you very much, Chris for another great interview. Hope to talk to you again real soon. Good night, Thank you, sir, byebye, good night