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You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupansky for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them. To his parishioners, Minister Matt Baker seemed to pious and a good man to his wife Carrie. He was a devoted husband and caring father, Always sonny and devacious. Carrie never questioned their frequent relocations from one small Texas Baptist church to another. Even when tragedy struck, Carrie remained strong until
one day, inexplicably, she took her own life. To friends and family, However, Carrie's suicide made no sense and a struggle with questions they couldn't answer. Why couldn't Matt hold a job with any one church? Why did he cut off all contact with Carrie's devastated parents soon after her death, and who was the blonde companion he had began appearing
with just days after the funeral. But it would take a team of investigators and dogged determination to bring Matt Baker's dark secrets to light, revealing a shocking history of lies, infidelity, cruelty, and sexual abcession that may have led a serial predator cloaked in God's word to commit murder. The book that we're going to be featuring this evening is Deadly Little Secrets with my special guest, journalist and author Katherine Casey. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
for this interview. Catherine Casey, Well, thank you.
For inviting me. Dan, I'm really thrilled to be here.
Well, thank you very much. It's going to be a great little interview here because it's a great book and a very fascinating story. So first off, as I often ask, what brought you to this story? What compelled you or motivated you really, because it takes a lot of motivation to write a book and a lot of work. What fascinated you about this case or interested you about this case that you decided to write about this particular case.
Well, I live in Houston, and this happened in Waco, Texas, and I started following the newspaper articles. It was just such a compelling case, the idea that this minister may have killed his wife, and all of the clubs that law enforcement committed in the investigation. It was just a fascinating case to follow.
Right. So you're very familiar with this little part of Texas being somewhat in the vicinity. Tell us where this occurs, where Waco, Texas for those people that might not know, and you give a history of so maybe even give it a brief history of the really the most I guess important event that happened in Waco, Texas that left an indelible mark on America and probably the world. Tell us about a little bit about Waco, Texas well.
Waco is in the Hill country. It's north of Houston, north of Austin, in Rolling Hills. It's beautiful countryside, and it's where David Koresh hold up with his followers Branch Davidians and where the FBI and HTF were held at bay for so many days. Of course, that ended in a horrible fireball that killed dozens and dozens of people it's also the epicenter of the Baptist Church. It's where Baylor University is. In Baylor is the university, the Baptist University.
And we're talking about a community of about one hundred and twenty six thousand. Then, like you say, it's fairly close to Austin and fairly close to San Antonio. And so it's in this area, in this sort of pretty well famous Texas area here, and so tell us a little bit more about some of the roots of the religious roots. How we talk about communities being deeply religious or having a religious history, tell us a little bit more about how deep the roots go religiously religious wise.
In Waco, this is a deeply religious city in the middle of the Texas Bible bells. There are churches, mainly Baptist churches, and just about every other corner, some huge, some small, and people, you know, God blessed when they see each other on the street, they're seeing saying grace over their their meals and restaurants. People take religion their patriotism very seriously here. It's very Middle America and very religious.
And for those that don't know, and I was raised Roman Catholics, so I'm not so familiar. But is the would you say, just to clarify, Baptist church would be right wing or right or left of say, what would you consider conservative religious people? Which which way would it be a little bit more right of that or left of that?
It would it would be conservative religious. It's very middle conservative Middle America. You know, it's it's an interesting community. It's had its history with David Koresh and that's really what it's known for. And people tend to stay in Waygo. Families are very tight and everything circles around the family and the church.
Right now, tell us a little bit about first off, I guess if we could introduce some of the characters main characters in this fascinating story. Let's talk about Matt Baker and his parents and where they were in the country, and what was his background was, How was early life in Matt Baker's life and his parents? What was Matt Baker's background?
Well, from the outside, it appeared that he grew up in a very devout family in Kerrville, Texas, which is just south of Austin, south of San Antonio a little bit, another beautiful small community in Texas. The family was very, very active in the Baptist Church, the primary Baptist church in Kerrville. They did missions together. His parents were foster parents and had approximately fifty foster children while Matt was
growing up. Matt was always very active in missions and very active at the church.
Now, what was there anything extraordinary unusual? What was what were his friends and people around him? What were their comments or general views about him around that time? In his high school age? What was he characterized as?
Matt was considered to be kind of a nice guy. He was kind of a small kid, had kind of bushy brown hair and really beautiful blue eyes. And really they thought that he was just this nice religious kid. He never got in any trouble that anybody knew of, and people dads were glad that their daughters dated him.
Right now, when did religion become a bigger part or some form of focus for Matt? At what age do people notice that he was gravitating towards taking his religion a little more serious than the average person living in the community.
Well, in the Baptist Church, people are baptized when they accept Jesus Christ. It's not like in the Catholic Church, where they're baptized at infants, and Matt was baptized at at quite a young age, which was six, and he seemed devout from the very beginning. He talked a lot about church, He talked a lot about God. He expressed the ambition to work within a church, maybe in a recreation program when he went off to Baylor, when he left Curville for Waco, and once he got to Waco,
he continued in. They have a program to instruct future ministers and future church workers, and he continued on in that program.
So he entered in This is around nineteen ninety. We'll say he began his career in his education.
At Baylor University in Waco, and he was working part time at that point at the Baptist Church in Waco, the largest Baptist church. He was helping to oversee the youth program.
Now in that first nineteen ninety because you did extensive interviews and you have information about people that were spoken to all along the way, it seems in his life as far as you could discover, what was nineteen ninety characterized by what were people's thoughts about him in school and what was he considered? How was he considered in that first year in nineteen ninety and were there any type of events whatsoever.
Well, they were kind of at that point the split in Math's personality started to shine through. On one hand, when he was working as a trainer with the Baylor football team, he was one of those who bent farthest down on his knees during procession with his eyes closed, in his hands folded, and seemed the most enraptured. But then at other times, you know, the people talked about the fact that he grabbed a girl and kissed her at a party. And then something happened while he was
at Baylor. He assaulted, I attempted to sexually assault a young woman in one of the bathroom showers. Fought him off, She only got a way from him by biting him in the shoulder, and she filed a complaint with Baylor University, but nothing was done.
Was that Laurie Wilson.
That was Laura Wilson.
Laura Wilson Wilson partly so she filed a complaint and tell us a little bit more about how he could have evaded any kind of trouble with that. How did that work?
Well, she was assured. I mean he literally dan chased her in the bathroom and assaulted her and pushed her up against a sink, and you know what may have continued on if she hadn't fought him off, and she did press. You know, she did go to authorities within the athletic program, and she was told he would be taken care of, but it wasn't. And they told her they convinced her not to go to the police herself because they said that they would handle us. But Baylor
did nothing. Matt continued on at school. He said later that he had a brief talk with someone in the hierarchy at the university before he was allowed back in the next semester, and that they sided with him. The proof of the pudding was that he was allowed to continue on at Baylor.
Right, especially in the capacity, and that he was. And it also it seems in retrospect always hindsight is much easier to do, but that this would have been a pivotal time to intercede on everyone's behalf right around them.
Well, it might have changed history. It might have actually saved at least one life down in the road. People would have known who Matt Baker was. He would have had a record. Instead, he continued on as one of the chosen ones, one of the young men, you know, ministerial students.
Now, let's get to Carrie Dolan and but and then we'll lead right up to how they came to meet each other and how that first that first impression, and how the relationship evolved. Tell us about Carrie Dolan and her early life, where was she from originally, and tell us a little bit about her background.
Well, Carrie's mom was kind of an army brad and it moved around the world with her with her family growing up, and the family had settled in central Texas and it was there actually Carrie was born in Salt Lake City. When Linda was married and her biological father, her father, died in a motorcycle accident, Linda moved back with Carrie to Waco and there met Jim Doolin and they started a family. They had a very close family along with all of Linda's sisters who lived in the area.
So it it's just kind of this big family with luck, with aunts and uncles and lots of cousins. And Carrie was just this kind of happy kid growing up.
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Plus you know, she loved to sing. The Julians had religion in their background. They were a religious family as well. They had a couple of ministers in the family and one of the uncles was a music music minister at a Baptist church down in Florida. So they went, you know, they centered their life to around in their face. And Carrie went away to Texas Tech at one point when she graduated from high school, and it was at Tech that things got just a little bit wild, not terribly wild,
but a little bit. She belonged to a sorority, and she decided she wanted to come back and reclaim her roots. So after the year at Texas Tech, she moved back to Waco and was looking at continuing school there and eventually getting into Baylor, and she began working in the same program Matt did at First Baptist Church in Waco, and it was there that their paths crossed for the first time.
Now, according to friends and people at the time that you interviewed, what was Carrie's impression of Matt Baker.
Matt was a catch A lot of the girls in the program, A lot of the girls at Baylor thought that he was this really sweet, really devout, just great guy. And he talked a lot about wanting to go out and help people, carrying them a word of God out to the people. And Carrie had expressed to her mother the desire to get back to her roots, to get back to her religion, and to find a good Christian man to marry, and Matt appeared from what Carrie knew at that point, from what Matt showed the world, he
appeared to fit the bill. So he was considered quite a catchup bailor.
And he was also wanting to combine athletics in his career as well, if he had a deep interest in that as well. So again just you know saying young people too also have an interest in the physical So there was this physical attraction as well.
Oh there was. I mean when they met, they were very attracted to one another. It seemed like from the beginning they became a couple, started showing up at church together in the morning and leaving in the evening together, and we're rarely seen alone. They were only dating for a couple of months when they announced that they wanted to get married.
Now in the.
Ensuing two months and before the announcement, and I you know, I could just imagine you in two months you make an announcement like that, I don't care who you are, as open minded as anyone. There would be some concern. But what was the general impression of from Carrie's family about Matt what. I know it's after the fact, but again, what did they say that their impression was of Matt and the relationship itself.
You know, they didn't see the attraction. They looked at Matt and he seemed like kind of this odd, odd little guy, this kind of strange guy. And you know, he did some odd things like at family gatherings, instead of going on watching football with the with the men in the living room while the women talked and laughed in the kitchen, Matt would stand at the doorway to the kitchen and listen to the women talk. And some of Carrie's fans thought that that was strange, like he
was listening in and monitoring her conversation. He was just kind of odd. And Carrie tent when she met Matt, dropped all of her friends. It was as if he monopolized all of her time.
Right now, what was what was the impression from Matt's parents about what were their thoughts about the relationship.
Matt's mom told me that she too was concerned that they were moving too fast. Both sets of parents wanted them to hold off. Matt's mom said that they liked Carrie, but they just thought it was too soon. But Matt and Carey were really determined. And that's August before school started, before Baylor started again, and Carrie began first at the community college and then went on to Baylor later. They married at the Dulan's home.
So how did they get the parents to go along with this? This must have been some bit of convincing on both of their parts, because, like you say, you know, deeply religious, and what's the hurry? And everybody wants to make sure that this is something that they're very very serious about, especially in a religious community, that they take this institution, this step into marriage, very very seriously. How could he? Was he that charming? Were they that convinced?
How could they persuade both families to sort of put aside their fears and go along with this.
Well, Linda Doulan, Carrie's mom, told her that they were going to be on their own. They're going to have to pay their own brand. They wouldn't be paying her bills any longer. They were not going to keep up the payments on her car I mean, they really tried to slow it down. It wasn't that they didn't want Carrie to mar Mary Matt. They didn't want carry to marry anyone that quickly. But Carrie was just determined. And when Carrie was determined, she was forced to be dealt with.
She had a lot of spunk and she was in love with Matt and she wasn't taking no for an answer. And Matt was just as determined. He called up his mother and said, listen, two can live as cheaply as one, uh, maybe cheaper than to you know, than to two people living separately. And you know, the families went along with it.
Now, what was the marriage itself, the the what was it like? Were there any events? Tell us about the actual marriage ceremony.
Well, the marriage ceremony was very uh, you know, very small, and it was at the Doolan's home, Carrie's uncle, I believe, it was married and he's a Baptist minister and she, you know, she had a beautiful white down and he was all dressed up. His shirt looked a little bit and the pictures I've seen his shirt was a little big around the collar. And they looked like two kids getting married, because they were kind of two kids getting married, and there was a lot of hope for the future.
They were excited. Their families at that point had given into the marriage and they were excited for them, and they were hoping that there was a bright future ahead. But before long things started to crop up, and you know it was obvious that there were other issues.
How long before any before we'll say, Carrie saw some changes and some concerns and was she forthcoming with her family and the almost sister cousin. Was she sharing some of this information about her concerns? Tell us how long it took before she had some concerns before, and then how long before she expressed this to anyone.
You know, Carrie really didn't express concerns about Matt. She bought into Matt. She believed in Matt's very persuasive, he
could be very manipulative, he could explain things away. There were allegations right about the time of the marriage floating around about Matt having attempted to kiss or been inappropriate with some of the teenage girls at First Baptist in the rec program when he was there, and that he had made an improper suggestion to someone, an older woman who worked at First Baptist, and rather than listen to what was being said and considerate, Carrie immediately dismissed it.
It was not her Matt. Her Matt wouldn't do that. That couldn't be true. Carrie believed in Matt, she loved him, and she chose to look the other way.
Now, well, what were some of the issues that you alluded to that cropped up or came up as they soon after them that they tied the knot. What were some of these issues that seemed to be of concern.
Well, the first one was the one I just mentioned, these allegations at first Baptist that he'd been inappropriate, made inappropriate advances towards some of the women there. And then
time went on and other things happened. They were living in a townhouse that shared a parking lot with the townhouse behind them, and the teenage girl who lived in the opposite townhouse told her mother that Matt had grabbed her in the parking lot and kissed her and had made an advance toward her, and that got back to Carrie's ann's and Carrie's ann Carrie found out about it.
But rather than you know, demand Matt explain now this is a second allegation in a short period of time against Matt, instead of demanding that Matt explained, Carrie went over and you know, shouted at and pleaded with the with the girl saying, how could you say that about Matt. That's not true. Don't say that about my husband, that
can't be true. She just really believed in Matt and she loved him, and by that time she was pregnant they'd been married for a little while, and she was pregnant with her first daughter, so she had a family. She was planning a future with this man, and she was determined that he was going to be the guy she believed he.
Was right now, how was he as a father?
You know, he was a pretty good father. He pitched in and helped take care of the kids. Before long, Carrie was pregnant again. At that point, Matt was working at the y in Waco in a youth program there where there were more allegations made against him, and Carrie again ignored them or sided with Matt. She didn't ignore them, but she sided with Matt against the women making the allegations.
But because really the math that Carrie saw was this religious husband who gave her a Bible in which he inscribed it and said that he hoped that this would be her. You know, she would write in this Bible as she went through life and put her thoughts in there, her deepest thoughts. He was the good father who helped take care of their daughters, the one who helped bathed the kids at night and read them stories. She saw this good man. She didn't see the others.
Matt no when she did, and I don't say she confronted him, but when she did ask about these allegations that were so many of them, was he you know, classically I guess people might you know, might come up if he was really defensive, or if he got very very angry, or if he was you know, didn't want to answer the questions at all, And so what was his demeanor when she did ask him there, to ask him any questions.
Matt always had an explanation, and they were on the surface if you didn't really take a look at what was happening and add it all up, you know, I mean, they were plausible explanations. The girls at the why he said that he was trying to counsel them, you know, I mean he's a minister. He said he was trying to or studying to be a minister at that point, that he was trying to counsel them about you know, entering, you know, being a teenager and about sexuality. And they
took it wrong. They misinterpreted it was always the woman's fault, that it was never that he had actually done anything. And Carrie wanted to believe him, I mean, wanting to believe somebody is a very powerful influence in a relationship show, wanting Matt to be telling the truth, and she believed him.
Now they have they're married. You said they were married at a young age. Approximate what age were they married at and what's the difference in their age?
You know, there's just a few years apart, and I think Carrie was about nineteen, right.
So now we're further along in the story here, maybe we can get it when they have the two they have the two children, and what situation are they at at that time once the arrival of the second child, and what's going on in his life now? Because there's so many allegations, are police ever involved with this? Have they been called?
A police have never been called. He was let go at the y and he was denied unemployment benefits because he was fired for sexual harassment. He was fired for cause, But the police were never notified of anything until Laura Wilson, the first woman, the woman from Baylor that he accosted in the you know, in the restroom, filed a complaint with the Waygo Police department. But at that point it was past the statute of limitations, so the police couldn't
do anything. So but they Carrie and Matt were both going to school. Matt was continuing on. Now people at Baylor knew about the allegation that Laura Wilson had made, but they allowed Matt to go ahead, not only finishing up his undergrad but to become a step into the world.
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Into the master's program there, master of Ministry. So he continued on. He got into a very prestigious program.
At the school, and that prestigious program brought him what.
Well it would have brought it. Eventually he had a master's degree, which you know, from Baylor University, so it was a big deal for him. He was being groomed to you know, work in a large Baptist church. He was charismatic on the pulp. People liked listening to him. He came across as one of the shining lights, one of the future stars.
Right, And at what point did he meet this? If I'm jumping ahead, I might be when did he meet Vanessa Bulls? Well?
Uh, the Baker's second daughter died after having been ill with cancer. And uh. And then they had a third daughter named Grace, and they were living in Hewett, Texas outside a Waco, and Matt was ministering in a small church called Crossroads, and Vanessa Bulls was the music minister's daughter. She was quite a bit younger than Matt and carey, beautiful young girl she had. She was divorced and had had a child, a baby, a little girl named Lily, who was just a few months old at the time.
And as he had with others in the past, Matt began making overtures toward her, sexual overtures, and before long she was visiting him at their home on Fridays when Carrie was at work and Matt had the day off.
Now let's go back, as I apologize, because we jumped ahead, and they'll confuse the audience a little bit. So I'll repair that somewhat. This is we just glossed over a little bit. But her daughter that dies ca Caassidy, right, Cassidy, Yes, Cassidy. Now Cassidy dies? How much? How this sunny disposition, this happy, go lucky woman that, even though she's saddled with this infidelity from her husband, still believes in her husband and
doubts the word of these allegers. This person that was, like you say, described as a sunny disposition, a very happy person. This is important to to the trial and later to the story. How affected was she, How devastated was she and what was it? What was the overall effect in terms of devastation In terms for Carrie when her daughter, when the daughter died.
She was angry, and she was hurt, and she was upset, and she was devastated. She was depressed for a little while. She had a very difficult time. Carrie Cassidy wasn't supposed to die. She had had some surgery, she'd been in the hospital for quite a while, but she came home with a pretty good prognosis and then died in the middle of the night one night, and Carrie was very upset. She was very despondent over her daughter's death.
Was there any talk of was there any suicidal thoughts or in this depression? Was she prescribed any any antidepressants? And was it long term? Tell us about that it? Was there any any talk of suicide? Was there any Was she under a doctor's order of prescription for depressants antidepressants at that time? Tell us about that that kind of care.
No, she had no ani depressants. She had briefly had a prescription for a sleeping pill, but didn't renew it. She went to a therapist and a grief therapist, grief counselor and talked through it, and a counselor in her note said that Carrie was never suicidal.
And she must have recovered to a certain point. At least she had another daughter, Grace. They had another daughter, Grace, and there was no evidence that she had any postpartum problems or any problems around that time or after the child was born.
She got blue around the anniversary of Cassidy's death every year and would have two or three bad days where she might stay home and not go to school. She was a teacher at that point, So she sometimes sat around and watched movies of Cassidy and thought about her. They would release balloons every year on Cassidy's the date of Cassidy's death. But no, for the most part, she was she was happy, especially once Grace was born. Grace really was kind of a helped she really helped carry heal.
Right, right now, what was Matt Baker's reaction after his daughter died and what did how did he respond in terms of his behavior or what was his what was his condition like after his daughter died.
Matt was stone faced through the entire episode. Nobody some cry, even the night of Cassidy's death in the emergency room at the hospital, when the nurses and doctors were crying, Matt wasn't. He was back up on the pulpit within a week. Carrie was very confused by all this. Couldn't understand how she could be so upset when Matt showed no emotion.
And that did that was at a continuing issue with her from that time on, that that that I have that profound an effect on her, that that stayed with her. That conclusion, I think she.
Always wondered why Matt hadn't shown more grief when Cassidy died, But once Grace came along and their lives went on. Matt was ministering at the church and he was working, and she was teaching. She taught in an elementary school in Waco, and they had these two daughters to raise, and as life can, but you know, goes on. People put these things aside and just try to deal with what's going on in their lives at the time, so it didn't become an overwhelming division between them. Known.
Okay, so we're now we're backed up to him meeting Vanessa. So tell us again how they met and how their relationship evolved, and again tell us a little bit more about that.
Well, Vanessa was this beautiful young girl, young woman who was the music minister's daughter at Matt's church. And Carrie was very active at the church. She was there all the time with the youth groups, working with the women's clubs, and she made Vanessa at the same time too. And the Christmas after Vanessa began coming to the church, which would have been five, Matt went up to her at one point and said something on the she was talking
on the phone. She was divorced and she was telling a friend that she was going to start dating again or some guy wanted to date her and Matt. When she hung up the phone, Matt said to her, you should you know, you should do that? And he said, she said what, And he said, date your minister, And she said something on the order of you know, does your wife know? And he said no, carry doesn't have a clue.
And who did she tell us to?
Ultimately, well, far down the road she told us to authorities and then testified to it in the courtroom.
Okay, now, so he suggests an affair, and so how do they again, you said, even go to the family home? Is he professing love? Is this a sexual affair? What is Is there any talk of any kind of goals?
Is he?
Uh?
Is he discontent with his own marriage? What's I mean? These are deeply religious people's houses going on. How are they justifying it between them?
Well, Matt told Matt was Vanessa's minister and told her that it was okay, that God didn't mind, and and Vanessa and Matt started spending more time together. They were spending these fridays together. At first, she said that he was helping her through her divorce, but it became sexual, and he told her early on that if if he fell in love with her, if they fell in love, that he would get rid of Carrie.
And what did he mean? What did he mean by not get Before.
Along, he started talking about ways to get rid of Carrie with Vanessa, and they included things like staging a drive by shooting, or putting something into her milkshakes and giving a tour to drink.
Now, let's go back a little bit. Who how is Vanessa listening to this information? She didn't She doesn't have this kind of background, whereas nobody really has this kind of background. So how is she listening to this is a tongue in cheek? Is she thinking he's bravado? Is she thinking he's exaggerating? Is there some alcohol involved here? I mean? What does she think? And why does she think this is sounding reasonable to her?
Well, she's not going to authority, she's not telling Carrie that this is going on. She's taking no action to stop match. She became a sounding board for him as he planned his wife's murder. At one point he started talking about staging suicide, and at that point he claims that Carrie had once attempted suicide so everyone would believe that she had done it, that she was despondent about Cassidy. The anniversary of Cassidy's death is coming up, so the
timing is good. Vanessa said later that she told him that nobody would ever believe it, but he said, oh no, they would believe it, you know. She said that he was. He told her that he was going to type the suicide note, and she said, well, nobody will believe that she typed a suicide note. And Matt said, well, everybody will believe it. Carrie types everything.
So is there any reason why she doesn't just leave this guys? This guy? How does she rationalize this in her mind at that time, Like a lot of people make up a lie and say, well, listen, I scared, I was afraid for my own life. But how does she rationalize why at that moment she didn't go to authorities or leave him or talk him out of it, or is there any justification for that?
You know, I don't see a justification for that. She did nothing to stop him, She made no effort to do anything to protect Harry at all. She listened while Matt planned a murder. She was telling friends at the time that she thought maybe Matt would be a good father for her daughter. Now, how she could not have thought that if he was willing to murder one wife, he might not be willing to murder too, I don't know. But the bottom line here is she did nothing to stop him.
Was she involved in the plan? You say she was like a sounding board, But did she say that there was some point where she thought, Okay, he's going to go through with this. Because you mentioned the anniversary. So the anniversary is April or is it March for her daughter dying, Cassidy dying.
I believe it's March twenty third.
I don't have it right in front of me, but I believe, yeah, yeah, it's near the end of March or April. Because Okay, so he's discussing this a little bit previous to this anniversary and telling her that it's a good idea. So how much so he lays out give us what he lays out to her in terms of the entire idea of how he's going to pull off this suicide, this murder and portray it as a suicide.
Well, as I said, he talks about different options like to drive by shooting. He starts talking about putting something in Carrie's milkshake. There are emails that go back and forth between Carrie and Matt at the time. One of those emails references Matt saying that he's going to make her another milkshake. This time was not so much chocolate in it. I get it sounds as if he gave her a milkshake she didn't like, perhaps one that there
was something in. So the plan is kind of formulating, it's kind of percolating, and by then Matt is getting on the computer and he's looking for drugs that he can buy over the internet. The computer of evidence would later show that he was going back and forth between pornography websites, looking at peorn on his BAP on his church computer from the Baptist church, and looking for amby and presumably to give his wife right.
Now leading up to this, in this last a few days, almost a week before this murder, tell us some of the just if there's any particular spectacular or interesting events just previous to this, and then maybe we could lead up to the actual event.
Well, there was a rift developing between Carrie and Matt. Matt didn't want to have relations with Carrie for the first time in their marriage. He wasn't interested in her sexually. He was pushing her away and she felt that so alls that show that this rift developed within the marriage. There was a lot of arguing. Matt claimed that he
blamed her, blame Carrie for Cassidy's death. There was a lot of strong emotion during that week before and Carrie went to She found some ground up pills in Matt's briefcase, and on some levels she must have known or she suspected that they may have been he may have planned to use them on her, because she then went to a therapist and said, I think my husband's trying to kill me, but then said, oh, no, that can't be true.
Matt would never do that. She also wrote in her Bible and asked God to protect her and said, I don't know what Matt has planned, but she was afraid.
Now, what if any concerns from her mother or her relatives or sister or siblings. Was there any concern around this time? Was there any contact with them? Did she reveal anything to them beforehand that there even to say that her marriage was troubled? Tell us about that? What did they know or think? Just previous to this faithful event.
Well, they knew. Linda, Carrie's mom, knew that Carrie and Matt were having problems, and after the email in which Matt blamed Carrie for Cassidy's death, he then Carrie went to her mother and said, I think maybe we're going to have to get a divorce because I can't live with somebody who thinks that i'm you know, that it's my fault that our daughter's dead. And Linda, at that time, not knowing what was really going on in the marriage, not knowing how frightened Carrie was, said no, not divorce,
go for counseling. Try counseling. She's looking at her daughter, she's looking at what she thinks is a good marriage, and there are two little girls involved, the two daughters. She's trying to help them keep the marriage together. At that point, what was the.
In what way was Carrie supposed to be the murderer of her daughter or responsible for their daughter being for dying? What was what was?
It wasn't Yeah, it wasn't murdering her daughter. It was that, Uh, she had watched Cassidy suffer so long, after all of the operations and everything that at one point she had prayed and said, Lord, just you know, don't let her hurt anymore. Make it over for her, if you know. And Matt, on the other hand, said that he had prayed that Cassidy would grow up and be cured and be healthy and you know, live a full life. So he said it was Carrie's fault that God had answered Carrie's prayer and not his.
Yeah, that's uh, that's a manipulation too.
But he was using Yeah, he was using religion, and he was using God in order to make Carrie feel guilty.
Yep. And then raj and justify what he was orday doing himself, cry for away. Yeah, okay, So nobody really knew, really there was people that was there anyone that knew that he was having this affair outside? Did anybody know this?
No, Some of the neighbors had noticed Vanessa's car driving up and going into the garage on Friday afternoons, but they didn't really know what was going on. Nobody put you know, put it together. So no one really knew about the affair, although I think Carrie suspected it in one of her emails when he didn't answer her email right away. She said something on the order of, oh,
I thought you might be busy with your girlfriend. So I think she was sensing a lot but was trying to convince herself it wasn't real.
Right now, this is April seventh, two thousand and sixth just the after noon before Carrie died. Take us back to that afternoon and then the incident itself and describe it for us, please.
Well, she'd had a really good day. She had an interview for a job at the middle school. She'd always wanted to teach middle school, and she had just aced the interview. I mean, she had done beautifully, and she heard that she was one of the contenders for the slot that was opening up. She was very excited. So she went home about three o'clock in the afternoon in a really good mood. Within two hours, she showed up at the why for Kenzie's swim practice, looking very angry,
very upset, actually looking like she could be ill. There was a lot of tension between her and Matt. Matt was there along with both of the girls, and it appeared that something had happened during that period of time, and Carrie just didn't look well. She looked very upset, So they were at swim practice and they left and they got home about seven o'clock that night. And the next thing that happened was a little bit after midnight when Matt called nine one one.
And what did he say to nine one one operators?
He said that he had just been gotten home, that he was out writing a movie and putting some gas in the car, and he found his wife and it looked like she'd committed suicide, and that there was a note and it said something like she was sorry. And the nine one one operator gave him instructions on what to do in order to give her CPR, and he claimed to be doing that, pulling her off the bed, putting her on the floor, and then starting to pound on her chest while they were waiting for them and
the police to show up. And on the phone call, Matt can be heard talking the whole time, talking about how, yes, he's working on these compressions. He's, you know, trying to revive his wife. He's saying things like she's throwing off and everything, or there's liquid coming out of her mouth and coming out of her her nose. And then the next thing he says is, oh, the police are here, Well, they had just driven up out front. And what they
didn't find was Matt working on Carrie. What they found was Matt standing on the front porch talking on the phone. And who is he talking to the police operator?
And what was the idea that if he was using if he was talking on the telephone, it would be pretty hard hard to do that CPR, wouldn't it.
Well, yeah, he had a a cordless phone. He didn't have it on speaker, and it would have been pretty hard to have hauled Carrie off of the bed while he's got the phone perched next to his ear without dropping the telephone. And he claimed that she was nude at the time, and he had dressed her. The call was only I think it's four minutes long, and it's
very difficult to dress a dead body. And he claimed that Carrie was in the bed nude, that he not only pulled her off the bed, but he dressed her and gave her CPR all before the police showed up.
And then the idea though his claim that she was vomiting French fries. And then he said when questioned, well, she had maybe three French fries. And then the examiner medical examiner said, well, there wouldn't have been any French fries. So there was a lot of not even even before you interviewed him, there was a lot of questions about his behavior, his story, and his especially that nine one one call and what he did or didn't do.
Yeah, it would turn out that a lot of really everything Matt said wasn't plausible. The condition of Carrie's body didn't match his story. He claimed have only been gone for forty five minutes, but the EMTs found a body that was cooling. Bodies only lose about one degree per hour right after death. Well, Carrie's body was cooling already, it should have still been warm. They found libidity in our lower extremities, you know that purplish hue from the
blood settling after the heart stops. That normally takes quite a while in a health the person. There were just a lot of things that didn't make sense, but the police ignored them or didn't see them and didn't communicate that to the justice of the peace. The suicide note was typed and unsigned, and what.
Did the suicide note say? Specifically?
It basically said that she was very sorry, but that she wanted to be with Cassidy and that she was leaving. You know that she knew Matt would take good care of their daughters and asked him to continue to be the good guy, the good father he had always been. It was very self serving and talked a lot about where the great guy Matt was.
Yeah, and also they said another unusual thing was that in this final note that she would have found it odd that she wouldn't mention or say anything about her only sibling, which was Adam, so.
Her brother odd as well too, very strange.
Now you say police just wrapped up this story. That Again, another one point I wanted to make too, is that he had said that they tried to loud that she was depressed and that she was on medication and on xanax, and so tried to bolster his story. But the medical examiner found no antidepressants in her system, and there was. It was found that she actually didn't have a prescription for xanax or any other antidepressant. Isn't that correct?
No, she didn't. She'd been given one that day, but when she'd gone to the doctor that week, she was suffering from anxiety attacks. I think because she did understand that Matt was trying to hurt her and that you know, she was in trouble, but she never actually had the prescription fulfilled filled and she didn't have with any drugs. There weren't any an depressants or anything in her body. There was no xanax. What was in her body was ambient.
Right now, after this apparent suicide, how does Carrie's family react and what is there idea about the suicide? Are they giving it any any consideration at all? And then what happens as a result of the police wrap up and their viewpoint on Matt and the suicide.
Well, the police made a there was a big error maid that night and autopsy was not ordered. That that was a big problem. The body was immediately sent to the mortuary. The police and the Justice of the peace, who could have ordered an autopsy. Neither one of them looked at all of you, you know, recognized all the alarm going off, and they sent the body to the
funeral home instead of to a medical examiner. So, when Linda and Jim found out that Krrie Community had supposedly committed suicide, they were devastated, but they heard that it was a clear cut case and they believed that it was probably true. They didn't. They didn't understand how they could be true because Carrie wasn't depressed, Carrie was doing
very well in life. Carrie was in a good place, So they didn't understand how it could have could be true, but they accepted it and part of the reason was of course that Matt had their granddaughter,