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You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. A family of three tied up, each with a gun to their head. Where's the money? Where's the flip and money? The intruders yelled. A petrified daughter, tortured and forced to listen to her parents being shot in cold blood. I heard shots like pop, she told the nine one one operator. Somebody's broke into our home. Please, I need help. Was this a home invasion or something
else more sinister? A deadly betrayal. The real life horror story that happened inside the Pan family home shocked their normally peaceful, upscale Toronto neighborhood. The Pans were an example of an immigrant family. Hann and his wife, Big Pan, fled from Vietnam to Canada after the US Vietnamese War to find a better life. Their daughter, Jennifer, was an Olympic caliber figure skater, award winning pianist, and a straight
A student. The Pans worked their way up in the rags to riches story now living in a beautiful home with luxury cars in the driveway. Was it these expensive items that lured three and intruders with guns into their home on the night of November eighth to tenty ten. Find out what really happened when season true crime reporter and author Alan R. Warren takes you through the details as I unfold in this book of a deadly betrayal.
Book we're featuring this s evening is Deadly Betrayal, the true story of Jennifer Pan Daughter from Hell, with my special guest, journalist and author and podcaster Alan R. Warren. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Alan R. Warren.
Oh, thanks for having me.
It's always a pleasure.
Thank you. It's always a pleasure to have you and the prolific Alan R. Warren. Let's get right to this. How did you come into position? Why did you pick this story, Deadly Betrayal? What was it about this just from looking at it initially that intrigued you and made you want to write a book Deadly Betrayal?
I I you know, it was just about the the amount of lies that she had told to her parents that intrigued me and how she got away with it for years and years, and so that brought me into the case. And I worked on it for quite a while actually, and then left it for a while and came back to it. It sort of kept bugging me. There were so many different details I wanted to know more about, so, you know, it just sort of kept drawing me in.
Now you talk about and if I got these pronunciations. I just pronounced Jennifer's mother's name, and if it's wrong, let me know the Vietnamese names, and I might get the pronunciation wrong. But you talk about Huey Hanpan. Her father was born and educated in Vietnam during the war with the US, and in college he took tuel and
die and diesel mechanics. And then he also met when he came to Scarborough suburb of Toronto for those people who don't know, in nineteen seventy nine, do you say, or seventy four, and he spoke no English and he had no money, and then he met his wife. So take it from there where he meets his wife and where they end up working, and tell us a little bit about their family. And the addition of Jennifer tell us a little bit about who they were and their life in just in a suburb of Toronto.
Well, who hadntn came from You were right. He was studied in Vietnam and you know, they both did, and they had met once before, but there was no relationship between them, and he chose to come to Scarborough as that was one of the places they were relocating. This was kind of an exodus from Vietnam. I don't know if people realize.
Because there was probably two.
Million people in all that had to flee from Vietnam after the war, and Canada took you know, I think in total ended up being close to three hundred thousand eventually. And so he went to where he was sent basically, and so did she, and they had met up and it didn't take long before they you know, maybe because they were isolated within their own little section of town and speaking their own language and kind of being refugees,
but they got really close really fast. And Beak, which was who became his wife, it came from Vietnam as well, and they both got a job in a manufacturing for car parts and it was Magna International, and actually she was on the assembly line so she was working an assembly line with the parts. He he had a little bit more education, was moved further into the company than she did.
You talk about, Uh, their life was modest, that the wages weren't very good and probably was expensive to live anywhere in Toronto, regardless of what year you're talking about. But they soon had children. They and Jennifer was born June of eighty six and later and eighty nine her she had a brother named Felix. So those are two siblings. Tell me about what basically what they were able to do despite these wages and and really what was the philosophy,
How did the household get run? Who was the boss and how what was the attitude and environment like in which Jennifer grew up in.
Well, definitely the father was the boss and was very I don't want to say the word controlling, but it was very structured and it was structured to the way of the whole family had to work to achieve something, and his priority was to have his first born achieved the most. And they wanted the life to go further and further. So they want their kids to perform and have a better opportunity than what they did and it was very concerning. So every dollar they made they kept.
They spent nothing on anything frivolous. Everything was essential and that was it, and that's how they lived. And even after having the two kids and both working full time, it didn't take them long to move up into a better neighborhood and a nicer home and actually cars that were respectable. You know, the respectability of working hard and making enough money to have a decent life was very important.
And there's some analysis on them the parents as being tiger parents in the fact that everything had to be laid out, structured, and you spent every waking hour to achieve.
So there was no.
It wasn't They didn't have a relaxing social atmosphere that a lot of traditional Canadian families would.
It just didn't go on.
You talk about Jennifer's early interests, well, that they directed her too. You also say that with the interests that she had basically were simulated or i thought of by her father. So the piano lessons and figure skating, and she excelled in both, you say, and that she also did an ancient martial art called swimming, but not like we would think. But right away before we're talking about elementary school, not anywhere later than this, We're talking before
grade eight. She already had some anxiety about performance and either whether a sport or academic performance. Didn't she Yeah, And.
To be a little more specific, her dad wanted her to only be in competitions where she would win an award for her performance. He didn't want her in anything of a group setting. There isn't group sports or no team of anything. Everything was individually granted. So if it was something like swimming, she could win, skating she can win, She can be honored for herself, just as in her schooling, and he wanted her to have an all around I guess education in everything that he could. There was time
to do everything, and she felt very overwhelmed. And there's a couple of aspects to that. One big thing was not only the pressure from the parents and what family they did have there, but in the Canadian social climate. She felt very isolated for the young years and was not close to other people. And I think at first she felt the pressure to achieve really well was the only way she could kind of, I don't know, make
friends or become popular or become worthwhile maybe. And so there was a lot of pressure on her, and she didn't have anybody really to talk to, and in that same sort of nobody else was going through this in that community.
You talked about her feeling much different and again isolated because had a policy if her father had a policy or parents had a policy of her not wearing makeup, So she wasn't interested or focused on the things that maybe girls would at a certain age in that age would be hair and makeup and clothing and status, and so she didn't have that. So she also didn't partake in birthday parties or sleepovers, so it was really sort
of understanding that's quite unusual. And her brother yet, because he wasn't the first born, it was a little more relaxed, and so she felt unusual pressure. And then you talk about that by grade eight, when she doesn't win the event, get the valedatorian at graduation and she didn't get any awards, she really felt like a failure. And you talk about soon after she's using her skills to fool her father about her school grades.
Tell us about that, Yeah, yeah, she started when she didn't achieve that, she felt like she really disappointed her father. And what happened in cases like that is, he got harder on her, He got tougher on her, so things were not going to get easier. She had to work harder, you know, no matter what. And so to take the pressure off, I guess she decided it to start making
her grades look better than they were. So, you know, with a photocopier and with white out and a few other key elements, she started faking report cards and giving them to her parents, you know.
Because she started to drop to c's.
You know, C plus and stuff like that in school. And if that was not good enough, he wanted a's. So she would give herself a's and she would hand it to him. And the very first time, I guess she was pretty terrified waiting for his response, and he fell for it. He believed it, and he was pleased with the grades, you know. And I have to mention with her brother, Felix, being younger, she also had the pressure of when he was failing, it was her responsibility to help him.
Achieve what he needed to.
So the father would not look at Felix, he would look at her, what can you do to make him better? It was almost like it was her job to only give herself top marks. And performances, but to make sure he did as well, and he was not. He was not really that goal orientated, so you sort of have this him not really caring so much and her being under the pressure.
To get his act together.
It was sort of an unusual situation, and I think it was really even harder on her. So again, whether it was to take the pressure off of her by lying about her grades or not, I'm not sure what drew her to that.
She meets while she's in school someone that's important to this story, and I'll let you take the last name then pronounce it, but it's Adrian, and she meets in the music class, and so this Adrian is becomes important later. But she has a little bit of a change for this isolated person in school that she has an affinity because she say, she's quite a good piano player and the musician. So she does find some friendship and connection with people via this music lass. Don G.
Yeah, yeah, what they If you've never been into the music arts department, quite often there's this a foyer and it's meant for people in music and meant for people in theater, and it's kind of a place where people would practice their craft or work on their homework, and so it was all art students. And for some reason she started hanging there because she felt a little bit safer there. And I guess she felt less judged because she was always wearing a sweater and no makeup and
was very you know, dressed down. She wasn't anything dressed up.
She was no.
Popular kids, so but she felt she could sit in the foyer and hang out. And she started becoming friends with a few people in there, and yeah, one was Adrian and Tim Keats, and they they kind of had a hit it off really well, and almost we call
it dating. It's kind of on the edge. There's a lot of different stories about their relationship in the first first year, and I kind of take it that they were almost best friends but not, you know, I want to say dating, and that's sort of how it's presented. But I get a feeling that on her point, it was never going to be a dating relationship, right, you know.
Now you talk about it, Sorry, go ahead.
No, I was going to say it was just he seemed to like her better than she liked him, as in right, wanting to go further in the situation.
The thing is, though, what was important was that he did get a chance to meet her parents, and her parents liked him. He seemed to be a good student, and he wanted to be an engineer, and he had his own car, and he seemed to be welcome at the Pan home. And you said, but despite this, like you say, maybe the attention wasn't the same. She wasn't as interested as he was. And within six months she had met a new boy who was also a musician and met in the band room as well, Daniel Wong.
So tell us about their early relationship and why this relationship was and his background, his ethnic background. I think it's important, and why they kept this relationship secret in the beginning.
Yeah, Daniel Wong was in there as well, but he was more of the character. He was the guy that was always playing jokes, always laughing and loud and always fooling around. And he was just the joker. And she never took him serious and never paid attention to him.
And it was.
When they went on the field trip the band to Austria to Salzburg that on one of their band trips, she had an asthma attack and he had kind of come to her rescue and held her and helped her breathe and all this, and paid an incredible amount of attention to her and her not having any sort of attention in her life up to them, not like this, not careful attention that she sort of felt for him
almost immediately. She thought he was just an amazing, caring person and she started thinking about him all the time, dreaming about him. And it didn't take long when they got back home before she started seeing him and dating him, becoming to you know, his his girlfriend. But that that didn't it didn't go well when she brought him home. The parents didn't like him at all, you know, and there was different reasons for that.
One was his.
Heritage being mixed Chinese and Philippine, which her father thought they were a servant class and they were not in the same position as they asked the pans would be, so he didn't like that. He also didn't like that the boy was not respectful, he didn't have a good job, and originally he wasn't supposed to be known, but Daniel Wong had been arrested for selling pot and so he
had a record. And later we found out that Felix, Jennifer's brother had told their father this, So that was another thing that her father knew, even though they you know, Jennifer Daniel didn't know this. They just didn't know why. The father was just so rude to them and to him and didn't want him around the house anymore. So that became where they had to keep it a secret then, because you know, the dad was not going to accept him.
So she begins she's already doing lying to her parents about her and forging her report cards. Now we're talking about her getting up to the age where she can go to college and also this relationship. Like you said, she he does get to meet the parents and they are definitely said to her, you're not to see this guy. We don't want you to see this guy. It wasn't a suggestion, it was a basic at demand of her.
So how does she go about working around that? And you talk about also that they get separated a little bit, So how do wear school grades? In actuality? Never mind what she does and gives to her father? What are her grades like during this time?
Oh, they couldn't well, they could get worse, but not much.
They were really she was failing classes. Now, see what's kind of the highest marks you would get and she was not going to graduate, so the school said, you're not going to graduate, so she made a fake report card again, she also made a fake diploma, and also she even faked her graduation and even the pictures and the whole, the whole nine yards, she just pulled the whole wole over her parents' eyes, like she told she, they believed she had graduated and she went to grad
and the whole works, so in their mind that she's doing great, even though she hadn't. And she, in her defense, said that she was going to go back and graduate, take courses and finish school. She just would do it later and not tell her parents so they wouldn't know, So she was justifying it that way. And then she even said that she got in at.
The UFT.
University of Toronto and she hadn't because she hadn't even graduated. And she started to go five days a week, and even at times quite often her mother would drive her so and she would just sit in the library and she would just study, and in fact a lot of times she would write out all of these things that reports that she said that she had got from her professors, like she's attending so she was doing tons of work to show her parents that she was attending, but she
was just in the library. And this is kind of where she started staying at Daniel's place because then she said to her mother, look is too much driving all this way back and forth five days a week. She wanted to stay with her girlfriends who had an apartment by the university.
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And what she would really be doing is staying at Daniel Wong's place for those nights, and they were keeping it secret. So that's how much she was so involved in lying and covering up. It just kept getting worse and worse, and she had more and more lies.
It just I guess it.
Really she went too far, it got out of control.
Well, her mother sees her one time with Daniel again and freaks out and says, I can't just keep this from your father. So they make a further demand. I mean, I talked about a demand, but there are demands and demands, so tell us about this exchange and the result.
Yeah, yeah, So yeah, when she saw them, she actually called the girlfriend that's supposed to be have the apartment, and she realized that she'd been lying that you know, this whole time, and so she did go home and tell her husband. So, you know, when she came back, the father had grounded her, taken away her car, her phone, all computer access. He just like closed everything down on her. And she guaranteed she would never speak to Daniel Wong
again and never see him again. And it was a mistake and she didn't mean to and just that whole thing, and he accepted it, but it was going to become very strict. Anytime she had taken the car or gone anywhere.
He wanted to see the mileage.
He wanted to watch everything she did.
It all had to be tracked.
There was no more relying on her to tell him things. So that was the first breakdown between the two, a big, major breakdown. But she still pretended to attend university and in fact even graduated from university and give him a diploma stating that she had graduated and she hadn't. And then she even faked a job that she had got in a children's hospital, And so she just kept answering with lies and more cover up. You know, she never really told him the truth.
She would have a lie for him.
The thing is, they get to the point where she's telling them she works at Walmart, but they're suspicious and they're asking for her for a paste up, so she takes and the right and they're giving her a ride there and they're hanging around and she hangs around in another department till they leave, so they're suspicious. And then she because she tells these half truths. Even when she admits everything, it's only half of the admission. And the even worst part is that she has to tell him
while I wasn't here, I didn't go to Ryerson. She doesn't tell him at any point that she still didn't graduate. So there's lots of lies left that he still doesn't seem to know. But as the more he does, he just seems, I cannot trust this girl whatsoever?
Does he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because that first job at the children's hospital is when they found out she wasn't working there. That when she said she got the job at Walmart in the pharmacy, the father started getting suspicious on that one because she didn't have any She wasn't going to work in work clothes, you know, she would just leave and not be dressed up for work, and she didn't have a sign in card and she didn't.
Have she just didn't.
He just didn't trust that that's what she was doing. So that's why they were starting to watch her when she'd go to work and trying to see if that's what she was doing. So then he started asking for the pay stubs, and she actually faked the pay stubs at first and got away with it. But what happened was then he wanted to look at her bank account to see if the money was being deposited by the job by Walmart. So he when he started going that way,
she couldn't. She couldn't fake that, she couldn't lie about that, and so she would have to come clean and tell him. It's the famous That's when she tells him about the university. So that's when he got down to the biggest demand of you're going to do nothing but you know, study and get your schooling and get a real job. And it just it just wasn't you know, it wasn't going to happen. She was just going to keep on lying and faking her way through.
He did force her to write a farewell letter to Daniel, I guess online while he watched. So then he again she had to apply to college as a lab tech. She took it. He always wanted her to be a doctor. She had no car, stay home, like you say, go to school, and that relationship became distant and she found out he had another girlfriend. And then she start going out, didn't she and pumped into one of her old friends from school. So what's her what's her behavior like now?
And who does she meet and what does she start talking about?
Well, you know, see, her behavior was kind of a little bit sketchy because you know, she found out about Daniel dating this other girl, I believe it was Kimberly, and so she was pretty upset about this. And this is when I've alluded to it, but there's there's no evidence of this. But he started getting you know, texts and phone calls, and so did this Kimberly that were
kind of off a little you know, threats. Most of the threats were going to were toward her herself, as in, Jennifer is going to get you know, something's going to happen to her and really off cuugh phone calls and you can guess it somehow related to her, you know. And so she yeah, she actually met Hank started hanging out in the pool hall where Daniel was selling drugs and she tried to to watch him and keep an eye on see what he was doing and almost like stalking.
And yeah, she had met a friend. And and the big thing with the friend was she ended up getting referred to his roommate, whose name was Rick. And the reason was was because she wanted to hire someone to kill her parents. And Rick said he could, he could fix her up and and take care of it. And he and he met with her a couple of times, and once was at a coffee shop and and the reason I say that it was because there was witnesses
to it and it was important. She actually gave him money and kind of made the deal, but Rick had no intention of following through, so he never followed through. He never made He took her money and then ignored her and then moved so she couldn't find him for a while. So so in a way she kind of got ripped off and that that that really, uh, that really really bothered her.
So she does what regarding Daniel and you talked about these calls that they were all experiencing too, if and what did some of the messages contain in terms of what they're trying to convey to the people on the phone. Well, it seemed like a lot.
Of the messages were aimed at Jennifer wasn't going to get hurt or Kimberly the new girlfriend are. They were kind of rude, a lot of them. I said, why would you go to a movie with her? Or why would you do that with her? They were all it was all about the three of them, all the conversations, all the threats and all the rude sort of stuff. And it started getting pretty extreme too. There was times when it would there would be a maang and you know she's going to die and bang and there's really
weird stuff. And that sort of surprised me that he never took it more serious. I mean, like he never called the cops or he never he never got took it any further than just them, if you know what I'm saying. So that kind of bothers me in the sense of, you know, because if you're getting calls about your ex girlfriend or about your new girlfriend, or about you and about murdering and dying and killing and really rude things going on for the three of you, you
know it's somebody involved. It's one of you three somebody something's going on. And if he was really feeling it was threatening a real like he suggested later, I would think he would have gone to the cops.
But you're saying that maybe this is this is maybe something he came to in terms of just for purposes later.
I think there was more to it. I think what was happening was there was more to their conversations. I don't think she was just calling and hanging up and calling and threatening. I think she was calling him and he was knowing it was her and then she would give him the speel and they would fight. And I think it was his way of staying in contact with her because that was the only time he could be
in contact with her. There was more That relationship is much more complex than it seems, because he didn't act like a person that was being stalked or being threatened, or having his girlfriend threatened or X or an. He didn't act like that. He just would keep up the conversations and he would and when he talked about them later to the police, they would almost sounded like he tried to make it sound how scary it was and
how he thought something was going to happen. Times even thought something did happen to Jennifer, but he never acted on it, So that that doesn't make sense because if he really thought that, he would have done something about it.
You talk about now that she's spoken to someone else about her plans for murder, that she talks to Daniel now about this but has a change of plan from the original, and that means he doesn't want them shot, at least that's what she thinks might not be the best way to go. What do they talk about, what does she use for her justification why she tell Daniel obviously he knows what her parents are like, but tell us about that conversation she begins to have with Daniel.
Well, she started, you know, they started getting closer again from these phone calls. That's what I mean. I think there's more to them, because all of a sudden they start seeing each other her again and meeting each other
and then start becoming a couple again. And then then then she mentions about how she had talked to Rick and how he had ripped her off, and how she she she was never going to be free, and and at first she was playing the old she was she wanted to kill herself or she thought maybe, you know, she should die, and she was kind of trying to
make him feel sorry. And then she started when she told him about the rip off plan and stuff, and then she started kind of grooming him in a way of of something happening to her, to her parents and so.
She could be free.
And then then she would get into the eventually groom him into hiring people to want to do this, you know, And she told she according to Daniel, she was telling him wild stories, you know, like things were people were following her around, and that a man tried to kidnap her, and and someone else had and then she even told him that a gang of Asian men.
Or boys.
Had raped her in her bedroom and had been waiting for her when she, you know, when she was out running for a dog and she came back and stuff like that, and she had to go to the hospital and the police were notified, and and she just had all these stories. But again, this is what we hear from Daniel after the fact, and it's written in there.
But I have to.
I have to say, I still don't know that I trust what how Daniel claims it to be, because again, he just did nothing like that just seems really weird to me. If your girlfriend calls you and tells you that she had to go to the hospital and she saw the police and she was raped in her bedroom by five gang members, wouldn't you be right there or wouldn't you be involved in it? He didn't act like it mattered, So I really question.
That story.
Does he act like maybe he doesn't believe it and she's used to lying, and so.
She's used in lying. But you know, we have to take it two ways. Either she was you know, the weird phone calls when he was dating the other girl up to the weird happenings being followed and then eventually being raped and getting weird male and you know, and all this weird stuff she was going on. Either that was all true and he was totally shocked, but he just didn't care, or he just thought, yeah, that's just Jennifer.
She lies all the time. But it still seems kind of I don't know, there's something strange about this relationship that I can't put a panel on because I still think with all of these lives getting so extreme, he would distance himself from someone like that. It wouldn't be getting closer, Like if he really thought she was lying about the rapes and all the things she'd come up with all these stories, he wouldn't be trying to get closer to her and be involved with her. I think
he would want to distance himself. And if it was just a story, then it's just a story.
So let's talk about the Faithful Evening, because there's different accounts of it. Because of course, as you will explain what's happening in the home, it's sell people in the
different parts of the home. That evening tell us what happens that day, and then tell us what happens that evening where the family is we'll say around dinner time, and then go from there and then tell us what happens, and then we can see and you can tell us about how police are called later nine one one from Jennifer and then her account to police tell.
Us, Yeah, well, the key thing that that in the evening was when Jennifer and her mother came home and we're planning dinner, and then her father came home from work then had to go to home depot, so the two of them ate dinner for the father. Basically, the father come home, would eat and then would go read this newspaper. At this time, they would clean up the dishes, and then Jennifer's mother went to her it was dance lessons.
I think she was in some sort of dance class, so she took off to that, and so that was the basic premise of it. So the daughter's up in her room studying supposedly, father's down in the front room living room reading his paper, and mother's out at the class the dance school. So everything was going as normal. And then we do know that Jennifer had her friends a couple of friends come over and watch TV with
her downstairs and then eventually leave. We hear different stories, but the key part to it is the mother comes home, I believe around nine nine thirty ish and soaks her feet out in the front room from after the class. And so from there we hear that's where it changes. You know, Jennifer apparently snuck downstairs unlocked the front door, went back upstairs, and they got the text later that they know they were communicating by text, and so the men just showed up and three hires plus.
Her boyfriend.
Daniel Wong, And so from there what happened exactly, we have different different accounts, and it would seem that the mother was forced upstairs to the father's room where they went in and they grabbed him, beat him, took some money from one of their drawers, took them downstairs, put them on their knees, and then Jennifer's her own claim was that they came down the hall to her room, grabbed her, had her get some of her money and that she had been saving and give to them, and
then they tied her up and then they took her downstairs again and then asked her to find some more money, did a lot of swearing and screaming, and then took both parents down to the basement and shot them both in the head. And then they took her upstairs and tied her to the top rail on the stairstair the main landing, and then they left. So that's your general occurrences. I mean, there's more detail in the book, but that's
the general idea. And then from there, Jennifer said she called the police on her cell phone, which was stuck in her back part of her sweatpants. She was wearing a pair of sweatpants and she had the phone stuck
in the back. She called nine one to one and told them that they had a home invasion, and just actually while she was still on the phone, she all of a sudden hurt her father, and she even screamed at him, and he, instead of going to her or going up to make sure she was okay, just ran out the front door and went to the neighbors and was screaming.
You know.
So that's kind of the basic premise, and what we found out later the father hadn't died, and he had actually seen Jennifer untied talking with the guys and moving around and he knew that they were working together, so that's why he never ran to his daughter.
You've jumped ahead a little bit, quite a bit, but let's go back, because she says that she yelled at him and that he ran out the front, leaving her behind. She said she had a cell phone, and because she's on the phone with police, he is run next door. He's been shot in the face, he's been shot in the neck or there's bullet fragments in his face and the bullet in it lodged in his neck, and he's yelling and screaming. They'd rush him to hospital. His family
surrounds him. The police, as you say, keep her away from the father, and right away have the first of many interviews. And I think just from the tone of how you present the interviews that the police immediately know right from getting her to repeat herself and in the
accounting that there's something not exactly right. They're handling her with kids, love care, given the circumstances, but right away they are seeing inconsistencies and things that don't seem to make sense with her story, do they.
Yeah, Well, she keeps every time she would talk about things, you know, like with the money it would be a different amount, and she would give different you know, just differences in the man approaching her with a rope and then all of a sudden he's coming down the hallway with a gun. She kept changing things, and the police were suspicious. And plus they were suspicious of the father leaving her and not you know, going, you know, just running right out, even though he knew she was alive
and she was up there screaming. So they were on notice from the beginning and watching every little move, and she just had too many, way too many inconsistencies for them just to kind of go, you know, they just didn't believe her, and and that's sort of what that that's sort of what led to her demise really was
all of the lies. And you know, they did get a lot of the cell phone records and copies, and it didn't take long to put it all together with the three people that were hired as along with her boyfriend Daniel. They didn't take long for the for the five of them to really get caught.
Well, let's let's give her a little bit of credit, and let's give the police some credit as well, because, like I say, they're handling them and you put this in the book, is that they handle her and they let her go and they bring her back in and then they talk to the brother and they also realize that and not really give her this detail that it looks like a robbery, but they know that there's a Mercedes, there's a Lexus. Those aren't stolen. There's money still in
the father's wallet. There is again those varying records of how much was stolen from her and where did she have her money was dubious origins. Anyway, there is a safe in plain view in the parents' room that nobody apparently asked for the combination. They were so desperate for money, she kept saying. They kept asking her, well, why wouldn't
why didn't they hurt you? And she didn't really have an answer, and they also say, well what, But all she could say was, well, they said they said something about my parents not cooperating, and that I did cooperate. So right away this smells very bad. But they proceed very carefully and they have to get warrants, and as warrants they do get, they do get the the pinging for off the tower, so they know locations, and then they tell her that engage her reaction and then slowly
tighten device on her. Don't they to get to the point where.
You know that the cell phone too as well? You know, when they you know, her hands are tied up and she's supposed to pull the cell phone out, which stayed. She didn't have a pocket in her sweatpants, So after all that activity, how it would stay there? It's one thing. And the other thing is how she would reach it, and if she did, then how would she talk? And the other thing was how could she hear the nine
one one operator? You know, there was just too many things right that made them totally suspicious.
It's amazing you include that they asked her, but they also get her well, hey, listen, here's a replica phone.
Show us how you did it.
And so then things aren't looking so good. She realizes that, you know, despite her acting ability, that this is not working so good with these guys, is it.
Yeah? And then I think the key to it was her father was in in a coma for the time, and then he came out of his coma, and I think that was the key because then of course he would tell the police.
What he knew.
And I think in her you know, she was nervous about it, and I think that sort of was the clinger, you know, you know, to have your own father come out of a coma and then testify against you. It's not looking good.
So how does police tighten this again, this grip on her so that she does spit out that and they don't get it all at once because she's famous now in this story for not giving everything up, even when she says she's going to give everything up. So how do police proceed? How do they chip away? And what do they get with that chipping away? What information do they get?
Well, you know, I think they kept on doing this the hard interview and the third interview, and and it was done by a detective Slade. And he did the first two actually I should say, and then goits did the final one.
And he was he was the real love hate.
He was a real aggressive and would scare and then be real friendly, you know, kind of like a good cop bad cop in one really and uh and and you know he just worked his way through and about and he could talk about all of the things and get her to start minting lies and and how she was dating Daniel and how she was hiding it from the parents and then h and why, and she would
go through all of that. He sort of had a way of bringing her out and then he started getting her to admit different little mistakes and it wasn't long and then you know, I'm just trying to remember now. I think that by the end of that she had admitted.
That she she she.
Had she was involved, but she kind of changed it to the point where she didn't want them to kill her parents. She hired them to kill her. Yeah, she started running with that story.
He got her to admit that she was involved by saying and getting her to admit, well, what he had found anyway through just extensive interviews that and his deduction of from talking to her over many interviews, is that she was very controlled by her father and this relationship was frowned upon to the point where they just wanted her. It's like, say, the two minutes she could check her messages. This was really like prison for a young person, I
would imagine, given everything that they regard as freedom. And at the same time he empathized with her talking about that and said, yes, it's a form of abuse. And so to try to get her to understand that he seemed to understand why this all happened, and that she needed to get on the right side of you know, listen, I know you're involved, so you need to tell me the entire story, otherwise you're going to make another really,
really big mistake. So he tried to befriend her like that and keep that and chip away till he found the people that he thought were suspects. And of course then it's backed up by the towers and then the warrants for her two phones, because the first phone they found some information, but the second phone was quite a bit of information on who called and who next, before after and round about the murder time. And then they questioned her hard like you say that. Glites questioned her
heart about that. Tell us a little bit about that.
You know, and he well, he was able to kind of go, well, you know that you were saying. He was he was understanding about how pressured she felt and how she was, you know, felt abused and uh and and some of the key things was, you know, he would he would work up to something and and then you know, are you sorry for what happened?
Do you wish you could take it back?
And Jennifer then would say yes, and then so he would he would draw her up a certain level and then go back and then he would go with, you know, how did it start? What was your plan? And stuff, and and kind of draw her into admitting a little bit at a time, and and she would be very defensive.
You know, if I could have stopped, I would have and and you know she'd put her hands in her face and down and be very you know, sad, and then of course he would be you know, more supportive, Oh, it wasn't supposed to be your mother, and try to be very nurturing, and then all of a sudden go back at her again. And it didn't take long before, you know, bringing up the numbers and bring up things, and she would pull things out and start to say things and then draw back, and and you know, she
was caught, she really was. And it didn't help much in the trial because most of the stories she told were just that stories.
They had her testify. The father also testified. It was an impact statement. You talked about that testimony. She was on the stand for seven days. Two days you say, was devoted just to her lies, to detail what she had actually said to them so that the jury could get that part of it straight. And then she continued with the same lie as her defense that she really wanted to die herself, or she would if she would
have tried to call it off, but she couldn't. And yet the father had said, like you said that she was free and clear to walk around and he saw that. Yeah, and that's very damaging.
Yeah, well, you know, you know, and then every time, even during the trial, she would say something and she would get caught in a mistake or a lie, depending on how you wanted to call it, and then she would change, like she was very good at quickly changing the story to make it work. She was just saying what she.
Had to and.
You know, nobody was going to believe it. And then having the impact statement as well from the father on top of it, and the suffering that he went through. You know, he's still damaged, you know, his neck and his face and stuff. It took several operations and he's still not able to work and a lot of times speak and he can't sleep. He's in great pain all the time. Once the jury sees the damage and they could just see it, and how she was so I don't know, just non caring. I want to say she
was just so the plain affect. You know, there was nothing there, no feeling, and when she did feel it was always when she was getting caught into something or had to admit something, and then she would tear up and hide her face.
The idea, too, is so that they got the idea that too, with the texts and the phone calls, that they had people that weren't at the crime itself, and that there were other people that were actually there and they charged everyone. They also had witnesses to say, like an Andrew to say, listen, she told me what she was going to do and how it was going to happen. Then this is it and so very very damaging. Doesn't look good at the trial. Tell us what happens in the end.
Well, you know, she got convicted, that's not any surprise. And actually they all did. And she was given the maximum penalty, two life sentences for the first degree murder of her mother and the attempt at murder on her father, and no tense of parole for at least twenty five years, and so she'll be in prison till at least twenty thirty six. Probably she'll probably never get out. The same sentence went for Daniel Wong and Len Crawford and David Magnumen and.
Eric Carty.
Who was the only one that didn't get that was the guy that bargained with the crown and he took an eighteen year sentence in return for his admissions. And the thing is he was already serving a twenty five year for another murder in another case, so he's going to be there for at least forty three years. He'll probably be there for life as well, so we'll see what happens.
Part of his deal was that me he provided excuse me, he provided information to the authorities that helped convict these guys and give them first degree murder, which is pretty tough in Canada. Isn't it pretty quite an achievement to have everybody for first degree murder?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a big deal and that's what they wanted. So and knowing that he had a twenty five year sentence before adding another eighteen they felt comfortable with it.
You know, it was chilling. You include the impact statement. Of course, the father, like you say, will never ever be the same. It was interesting to the Beaks funeral, which was attended by Jennifer and her brother but the father couldn't even make it to the funeral. I thought that was odd that even had the funeral, then there was an order that she wasn't to see to go
to see him at the hospital. Yet one of the most chilling parts of this book is that she snuck in there one time and talked to him, and he had spoken to the police, so he'd didn't let on that he thought she was guilty, and at that time she just felt it necessary to ask him what regarding money?
Yeah, yeah, and I think that was sort of I think they both knew, but they had the relationship even in that stressful situation. He's lying in the hospital, she's had him shot. Even in that they could not talk real you know what I mean, there wasn't They still both had their front. He still was the father and she was still the daughter, and she was still too scared to be aggressive. She had to have other people
do what she wanted done. So I think it was scary, But at the same point, I think that they both kept up their persona with each other.
It's amazing she hasn't for tuition after everything. If it isn't the most upside down request of all. He asked, She asked sneaks in and then ask him for tuition for college. Incredible.
Yeah, well, that's what I mean. She was still being her. She was still being the daughter you know that she was when they were at home. She was still doing you know it. She didn't look at him any differently, she didn't see things differently. It was still how it was at home. It was just too weird, and he kept he had his persona as well, being the tough father, not really showing a lot of affection, you know, being direct, and.
It just did.
Even after all that, nothing changed in their relationship.
I would admit that this is a bizarre relationship she had with their father and her parents, and that it certainly does not match any well, almost any home you would find in Canada, and people would be surprised that people would be that controlling and expect that kind of compliance from their daughter, regardless of your background or your heritage, regardless of that. So I think the parents were being
completely unrealistic. And then they knew that they had somebody that was not at the same level as them in terms of their values. They should have known what they were out in the world, and so it seemed like they didn't see what should have been pretty obvious to them.
That being said, though, what I find in this is because of her account, is lots of times the account or Daniels or other people around that actually actually seemed to all feel some sympathy for her from her situation that she seems a lot more psychopathic than I think
sometimes she was portrayed, say, even at the trial. What do you think about that in terms of the coldness and the evil that she possessed while her parents were well, I mean they would have been both murdered, So what do you think about that?
Yeah, definitely, I think I think for sure she had She was definitely in a psychopathic situation. She had no emotions toward her parents, it seemed like her her her thoughts were always toward herself and what was going to happen with her, So through through everything and even the people she went through, her boyfriends, the friends, just everybody involved, she had no concern for anybody but herself. So everything she did every single day was totally ecocentric.
It was totally about her.
And she started turning that in high school toward herself and carried it right through I you know, I didn't see any emotion in her, nothing upsetting for her. That this is a very traumatic life to have been through and she just she just held it in or she didn't have a care in the world.
You say it the decision at the sentencing, that she was smiling and the others had no emotion when they had the guilty but the you did see her hear some screams at the trial, and that Daniel Wong's mother ran out of that courtroom.
Yeah, oh, for sure. You know you have to the three boys, not Daniel Wong, but the other three if you're the type that people will hire you to kill. And the one Eric Cardi had been had been convicted of murder as well already on another case. Those are people that didn't care. They'll kill for money and it doesn't really matter to them. As far as Daniel Long, he was supposed to be a pretty good boy overall.
People really liked him. He was very friendly. He let his friends have any he'd let them use his car, he'd let them do he was super friendly and nice. How he got involved in this is a very big question, especially into the murder and especially all That's why I say all those weird phone calls he went through, and all the things he went through with both girlfriends, Jennifer and Kimberly, and all the stories that he was told.
It's what's very confusing. That's why he said he didn't if he didn't believe Jennifer being raped and getting things in her mail and all this stuff happening. I don't think he handled it like he didn't believe it, you know, I just don't. You know, he's a He's a big question to mark in this whole case because he seems to be on the on the sidelines. He didn't seem
to get there. You know, there was no you know, if you put yourself in the situation of having a girlfriend wanting you to kill her parents and her and all the stories she told them before, he didn't. He wasn't there by her side. But at the same time, he didn't stop her. You know, there's there's something funny about that his character in this and I don't quite understand it.
So what kind of promises I don't It doesn't seem to be very clear what kind of money and where she would have gotten it from to give these guys the kind of money that would give them a motivation to kill at that time. I don't know if you can say, listen, I'll give you this much money. But later now there was an inheritance that I guess she would have been involved with her and her brother. But and it was the vehicles that they didn't steal, the Mercedes and Alexis. But like I say, it didn't even
touch the safe. So what could she have because you don't talk about it. What kind of money could she have offered these guys?
What could she have offered these guys?
Oh?
Not very much? Really, you're right there, really there really was no There wasn't much money. There was maybe what was it about twenty three thousand dollars?
I think.
That she could have offered them in cash. Then there's the house but it was not paid for, and the cars, and you're right, what she would have got and what her brother would have got in after stelling it and paying off the debts. I don't see that as being.
A whole lot. But I think that.
I think a lot of young people don't always realize that, or they think that they can get one hundred thousand dollars and that's a lot of money, you know, they think, Wow, that's going to set them up for life. Some people don't realize that it's it's not going to cut it. You're only twenty five. It's not going to set you up for the rest of your life. And I think she just had exaggerated dreams.
Do you think all the stories, with all the lies that she told. Of course police need to get the information and the evidence after that, they don't need to know every single detail of what was a lie, what wasn't. But do you think that the story of again how what was offered to be paid, and the seriousness of everyone's involvement in this, you think really the entire truth has been told by especially Jennifer.
No, No, not at all. You know, the closest resemblance of a truth is really from the evidence the police have, from the cell phones, from the texts, from the pings from witnesses and other you know, situations, and putting it together that way, it's probably the best real timeline we have. And even what happened in the house that night there that you know, it was told in so many different ways, and you know that, you know, they even assume on
a lot of it. All we know is is you know about her unlocking the door, getting the text and game on, and both parents being shot and everything else just kind of a blur. And there's some things they can tell from, like you were saying, the ping and and some of that, so they can kind of tell when things happened in a roundabout way. And you know, she was so fluid with her lies that it would just come right out as soon as something was thrown
at her that she couldn't answer. She created something how deep that goes? Who knows, because it started back in eighth grade and she developed a real character to be able to do that, and a real talent for it. And you know, one of those type of people that would stand there and tell you something and they really believe it. You know, that's how it sounds to you. They could be crying and you really believe what they're
saying because they believe it. But she was the type that could tell that and then flip the story in two minutes. So I don't know if we could really I think the best we could do is take the little pieces that we have and know that she was involved and that she she paid or wanted to pay for this to be done.
So, yeah, what was the media portrayal. Was there any sympathy for her because of this what she called abuse or what was the media portrayal of her?
No, No, that never really caught on.
For the most part. People were pretty angry with her for the for the most part. As soon as she was arrested and the story came out, they they people were not happy with.
This. This was not a good.
Thing for her. And and if anything.
People.
Pooh pooter, they doubted her completely, very very little sympathy for her, you know. If anything, the people that did support her at the beginning felt betrayed by this, you know, like her uncle and his family which she stayed with for a while, you know, and that kind of betrayal. I don't know that they could get over quickly. And
people don't like this. They don't like the idea of a nobody likes this girl at having her parents killed or attempted murders and setting this whole up just to what to get money or you know, you can walk away. She was in her twenties, she did not need to stay at home. There were so many answers, I guess, and people just look at the alternatives rather than that, you know, It's not like she was really being abused.
She wasn't being beaten and raped and attacked. It's just not something there's no reason to feel sorry for her.
What I find alan is that I don't know if you can concur but it seems that when the killers, often serial killers often have this idea that they've been humiliated. And it seems that if we could say that was
Jennifer humiliated by her father? Humiliated and say front of her classmates is some of her memories, I would say that she could say that, and in that way, I think that when she and just my idea is that when she was forced to leave Daniel and able to break up again, she said, well, listen, we can still still continue to be in secret, and he kind of seemed to drift away to the point where he got
another girlfriend. Do you think that came into play because shortly after she start talking about the murder of her father.
Oh, definitely, I think it was. It's just one of those things that was a step at a time, you know, And I think she, you know, she felt a sense of control with the lies, and when that happened, she no longer felt she was in control, and especially when he started seeing another girl, she felt like she was losing grips. So she had to get desperate, so she had to turn it up a notch. And so she had to get rid of the thing that was in
her way, and that would be her father. You know, he was in the way in her mind.
So he was also he was sorry. Yeah, he was also not really going to believe any of her lies anymore. She had been caught at almost every single thing, and it admitted to almost every a job that didn't exist, school that didn't exist, a diploma that didn't exist, all kinds of things that didn't exist. Everything he every promise she made to him, every single thing was a lie, every single thing. So eliminating him would also eliminate that shame that she did feel when she was cutting herself
and feeling suicidal. And that seems to be true.
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it all, it all makes sense in that way. I just think that she, you know, she lived in that world and as a teenager you can see it. But when you're twenty five, you know, I think most most kids just move out. You know, I'm not going to take that. You know, they get into a fight with their Dad and they move out.
She stayed with it, and like I said, it's a very complex situation to want to do that, to want to stay there, and to want to please him, Like you know, why did she feel she had to keep lying and keep trying to please him and stay at home at it When you're in your mid late twenties, it starts to get I don't know what was the what was the end goal for her?
Well, the disonment is the what they threatened her with. They said, listen, you can be with Daniel, but we will disown you from your family. And so that is a huge decision, I mean, psychologically, that's a hell of a thing to have to pick. And and like you said, the it seems questionable her actual mature age or actual maturity in terms of with all this isolation and focus on things and a non focus on social life. Was
she really twenty five? I mean, not to excuse, not to excuse at all, but did she act in any way like twenty five?
Yeah? She probably wasn't.
And I mean, you know, because even the thought of being disowned, if that's going to crush you, that's one thing. But then so instead of being disoned, you killed them.
I don't know what I mean, It.
Just when you look at the bigger picture, it's kind of like, wow. So she was really trapped in that whole that whole world, and and it's so she was so trapped in it. And I'm not saying necessarily forced, but even in her own mind, she couldn't leave. She was part of that household and that that family. It would be better for her to kill them than to actually move out and be disowned. So in her mind she was pretty pretty screwed up.
Well, the thing is, I think that if you look at this too, it doesn't seem like that she's diabolical. And none of these guys are diabolical in that after the fact or before or in planning or anything. So thank god for that in terms of not so bright criminals because it helps. But that's the only thing you could see the psychopathology, but it's not diabolical. Otherwise would we would have them dealing differently at trial, we'll say,
and dealing differently through interviews and everything else. They're the thank thankfully they're not diabolical killers in this case.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Now, Alan, I want to thank you very much for coming and talking about Deadly Betrayal, the true story of Jennifer Penn. For those that might want to look at other work that you have, the other true crime books that you do, and also tell us a little bit about your podcast, House a Mystery, excellent podcast, true crime podcast. So tell tell us about where they might be able to see your other work, Facebook pages or websites, and tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah, actually I have five books out and they're all on Amazon of course, and any good bookstores and my web page of course you can go to. It's just a House of Mystery and something weird media dot com. It kind of has everything books shows, House of Mysteries out of Seattle, and we broadcast five days a week Funday to Friday at four pm.
Tell us a little bit about the format for those people that haven't been turned onto House of Mystery. Tell us what the formats like. There's so many different types of formats and so much as you know competition and true crime. Tell us what your format is and just tell us the kind of thing that you do week after week.
Well, we're sort of we cover all types of mystery, so it can be true crime, mystery can be paranormal mystery, can be histories mysteries, and we usually have guests on that have written or done a film or had some sort of project, or maybe they were involved in a crime, and we kind of have a dialogue, not so much a debate, a dialogue about the thing that they were
involved in. And we also have a doctor Joe Kazinski calls in and gives us the top three conspiracies of the week, and Stephen Lampley does the true crime commentary, and he's an old CSI cop who talks about the real CSI and what they do know and what happens to the body after death and all the different research angles, and he does a little commentary segment. So it's kind of kind of a little bit of everything in there,
and it's a lot of fun. We try to be more like a little bit more scientific our in our approach to things like on conspiracy and things like that, so we're not just like a free wild thing talking about anything.
We if my inquirer.
Yeah, we're trying to be a little bit more realistic and logical and have evidence based things come into the show.
Absolutely, it's a great podcast, a great project, and I recommend it. I want to thank you very much, Alan R. Warren for coming on and talking about this incredible Jennifer Penn and the murder of her family, an attempt well attempted murder of her entire family, deadly betrayal. Thank you very much for this, Alan, hope to talk to you again real soon. Thank you for this. You have a great night.
Thank you