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You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Baptist deacon, family man, pillar of his Florida community, and serial killer of prostitutes. Chilling true crime from the author of Lobster Boy by Day. Sam Smithers was the deacon of his Baptist church in Plant City, Florida, a respected neighbour to many, and a devoted husband and father. But after the sun set, he became something else, a violent
attacker and killer of prostitutes. Smithers twisted double life came to light when a local woman who had hired him to take care of her property, found him in her garage cleaning an axe and then discovered a puddle of blood. Through exclusive interviews with Smithers's wife, who described her spouse as nothing but a doting husband and father, author Fred Rosen learned why this man of God raised in an intensely religious Tennessee home was the last person anyone with
suspect of committing these savage crimes. Rosen reveals the details behind the deaths of Chrissy Cowan and Denise Roach after Smithers picked them up in Tampa, and the fate of a man who seemed holier than now but was actually guilty as sin. The book they were featuring this evening is Deacon of Death, Sam Smithers, The serial Killer next Door with my special guest, journalist and author Fred Rosen.
Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview the incomparable Fred Rosen.
Only the Hey wait a minute, only Captain America or the Mighty Store incomparable. You know, no, I appreciate that, Dan, and I love being with you because you're the best.
And thank you, Fred, You're the best.
Well, thank you. But you know, I gotta tell you this book, I spent a lot of time rereading it. Wow, yeah, yeah, I love and I was going, oh, that's a good line, you know, because I wrote it a while back. But what's so interesting to me is how this guy's behavior with women is typical of what today we call the knee to movement where a guy is harassing women and here it's only you know, it's fifty twenty years ago.
It wasn't considered a big deal. So, you know, I think we've come a bairful ways, you know, which is a good thing, obviously, you know. Anyway, Yeah, tell.
Us spread because for people that are fans of Lobster Boy. And we've talked about Lobster Boy in the program, among about twelve or fifteen other books, or at least twelve other books that you have, but one of the more fascinating obviously because of Lobster Boy with the actual lobster clause born to and in this book Gibsonton, Florida. Again at least you open in Gibsonton, Florida and you explain what that is and the relation to Lobster Boy, which
is Grady third. You know. So tell us about the Lobster Boy connection and what you were doing in Gibson Gibsonton, Florida at that time.
Well, here's what happened. I put all this together. It took about four years. Okay, in nineteen ninety four, I was in Florida in Gibsonton, which is the home of the Carneye off season, and that's where I was investigating the murder of Lobster Boy, who'd been a Carneye freak and was killed in a murder for horst scheme by his ex wife and her son. And I had gotten involved in the case and came up with the evidence, but led to the fiction of the killer, two of
the killers. Anyway, the point is that four years later I was talking to a woman named Villa Bean who was a public information officer in the Saint Police Department, Hillsborough County. You know, maybe these four years, three years, I don't know what it was, but anyway, I was asking her, Hey, you got any other interesting cases. Next thing she knows, she's telling me about Sam Smithers and I went, I don't believe this. I just don't believe this.
You know, a church deacon who's a serial killer. We didn't have that back in Brooklyn. Dan. It was just really weird, and I said, I really got to get into it. And as I did, what what I really got into? This is the first Yeah, this is the first time I was doing a book, A better serial killer. I got very Lucky, you know, the just lucky, the the serial killer, Sam Smithers, that was his name, the guy serial killer. His wife was willing to talk to
me extensively. Oh boy, and that really, you know, it really gave me an understanding about how these people of their psyches are formed. This is not something that just happens, you know what I mean, It's not out of the blow. And quite frankly, I don't believe it's just a question of of DNA. I think of the combination of things, but especially background.
Sure, now with that incredible access, but you take us early in the book, the November two, nineteen nine three, and then they've found a woman with ligature marks around her neck beating about the hands. They concluded probably a strong man strangler with a belt, but they put the prints through the system, no match. Later on the news,
Susan Cowell had called her niece Rosalind Cruz. So you talk about this, Larry LINGO, Yeah, you know, tell us what tell us a little bit about Rosalind Cruz and what they found out quickly about her background.
Yeah.
Well, the bottom line is this, I forgot you were pulling me in, but I forgot that what happened was four years after doing those interviews and Gifts, and I realized that on the day that I finished the interview with the family of Grady Styles Junior, who was lobster boy in Gifts, I was driving back on the main drag on which the body was found. Shortly after that starts the story, and that's and eventually it's identified as Rosalind Cruz, who was a someone who was working as
as as a prostitute. And I actually drove by the body without realizing it was there. I mean it was night, you know, and you know, but I was able to pinpoint and on the basis of the time frame that the police established and what I knew, you know, when I when I had interviewed these individuals in in in giveson tent and so I knew the area, you know, I knew the area real well, and also I knew the police real well, and those things will help.
It's interesting too you talk about initially with the investigation and a detective Lingo, very colorful, Larry Lingo two years old. You talk about that initially that there was different suspects with the cruise case, the pat and Linda Ryan, so as many cases do is we find out in these books that that's what happens, then the police have to follow those logical lines, those logical leads. So what does what does it? What does? How do they proceed with this case?
Well, you you the in this particular case, and that Lingo was with the same police department that subsequently investigated the death of these two of of the two absolute known victims one and ten percent of Sam Smithers, and so he was able to eventually put it together even though the DNA wasn't one hundred percent. They had, you know, they had myochondrial DNA, but it was really enough to prove it was a match. So they already got him at three. And then there was one in the Florida Panhandle.
As I recall that also they suspect that he had committed when he lived up there. You know, I don't think we'll ever know exactly how many people this particular this is one of those cases. I don't think we'll ever know exactly how many people this individual.
Murdered.
You know what I mean, it's it's but it's all very very sad, and that's what gets to me more than anything. Damn the individuals that were murdered, you know, and you know, but it just bothers me. And then the wife and son. Oh my god, I've never ever had a situation where I talk to you know, it was a son of a serial killer.
Excuse me.
You know that doesn't usually happen in real life. Maybe on investigation discovery, you know, but you know, not for me.
Let's before we go into his life and then and yeah, of course the incredible access and information you gained from talking to his wife Sharon and the son. Let's talk about how he got to be a deacon of a church and his background before that, living with his father Alvin and his mother Lenny. What was the Again, we don't get to see this in the book till much later when his brother testifies. Later, we will want to jump ahead. Tell us about his early life in this house.
Well, he grew up in Chanttanoo suburb of Chattanooga, Tennessee, Sam Smithers, and he was a He grew up in a very uh in a church going family. And the thing is we can bottom line it, which is Sharon, his wife told me that he was physical He and his and his siblings were physically abused by his mother. So let's start with that. You know what I mean, we're not talking about he's going around the rats and things like that, you know, like you know you see
with certain profiles serial killers. Now what's happening here is he's getting abused physically by the mother. It's also possible to may have been some sort of uh, you know, other abuse, but in any case, I mean, there's no evidence of that, but it's anything's possible. But the bottom line here is this. He went to church, he on a regular basis, and he was very active in the church.
That's where he met his his eventual wife. But he also had so many problems from what was going on in his life that he eventually became I don't know, I guess you'd call it a firebug. Where he'd set fires that would he would he'd set the fire and then be the guy that put it out and therefore he was a big hero. That happens and they eat and while there was what he called some therapy involved after that, curd Is never left.
Yeah, it's very interesting. We just did a program with Frank Girardo and his book Burned, and it was almost the same thing. A volunteer fireman, person involved as a firefighter starting the fires, then getting that congratulations for being the genius to put out the fire. In this case, you say, he finally gets caught by this inspector Hayes after a woman's cars on fire. He bangs on the door,
Oh my god, your car's on fire. So finally, even though you say he's probably got got aided by the community in terms of leniency, finally he's arrested for that. And of course not given much for this arson not taken too seriously.
Bottom line is he he made oh man.
Set fires at his church. People could have reary, rearly hurt. And it luck that it didn't work out that way, you know what I mean, walk that were able to put all that out and and and uh, you know, and nobody was heard.
There was also signs again you referenced the me Too movement in and so maybe we should talk about that. There was some events that would be disturbing today and but at that time we're treated a little bit differently. What are the kinds of things that some of the people that volunteered for community service at this first Baptist church reported to the authorities.
Yes, yes, what happened was he was he was the what do you call them, the Cnstodians, Yes, Sir Custodian at the First Baptist Church. And what happened was that that included working with women who was serving community service. And I mean it's like the last thing in the world to be thinking of, I mean, prior to the V TOO movement certainly. And what happens is women come forward and they say, okay, he he came on to me. A couple of times, they say, put hands on them
physically a sexual way. And the church then has to, you know, to make a decision about what it's going to do out there. By the way, again, the guys a den. We're not talking about you know, where you're a reverend or anything, you know. But you know, but.
It's funny, Dan, you know, whenever I do one of your you know, I'm lucky enough to be interviewed by you, I got to go back and read the whole book because if I don't do that, uh, I don't know what the hell I did.
Yeah, you know, and so I was, you know, and and you know when I look at this thing, you know, oh man, what's what's that word? I don't know. I don't know if the word is enay blame.
You know.
Here look but you know, yesterday I'm reading about less Moon deft.
Okay, right, you know, let's.
We okay, But here's a guy now, not saying it's the same situation, obviously, but here's the guy he's doing, who's coming on to women in exactly the way that some of these individuals have been who've been indicted the a serial killer. Now, I'm not saying that Harvey wat
Stand is a serial killer or something. That's the point, the point we let this stuff slade for so long because women with second class citizens, at least, you know, for United States, I always have to believe that their candad is you know, further further along than ours.
Stand, well, the citizens aren't. So the thing is is that you still have the same sort of mentality everywhere. I mean, it's it's a universal mentality that now has
come in to light. It's been a radical shift with Weinstein, you know, and Cosby and so you know, you have the situation now, but back in this in this case, in this story, what it really indicates is that people were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because he was a deacon, because he was a family man and that and that helped him, like you say, enabled him to be able to continue with If he started with arson and he could and he had the
sexual harassment, then that emboldened him to believe he could get away with a lot of other crimes. And then that's why he was Even though it seems like he's a little bit organized, he was sloppy when it counted so luckily.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know, is your s What gets to me is that no names, no nhing. But it seems to me that since we have a pattern, and again this is you know, it's not through crime per se, but it looks to me maybe it is that you've got a pattern of people enabling a guy. What happens at the end of the day, two individuals are murdered, and of course, you know, when those individuals happen to be prostitutes, their lives are not considered to be the same by a lot of people. Okay, but
that's not the point. Lives or lives, you know.
And well the first person, the first person that disregarded them is Sam Smithers. So the thing is and then then from there. From there, we don't care as much. But the first person was able to do that was this. You know, what's interesting in your book is that you go back and you talk to his wife, but you weave it into the story. This guy is and I mean lots of other women that have been married to serial killers associated with serial killers said he was really
great in a relationship. Again, this one is even more detailed than that. He wasn't violent. When he got angry, he went for a walk, he went outside, He never he never spoken crude language. His sex was normal, even though he was frequenting prostitutes. He always made it home for supper. And he was a good father. And the exaggeration, that's.
You're putting all this together from what I wrote.
And I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, gee, why is it the world Canadian now that please hired as a spoken you know, you you put it all to scuriously. It's amazing, isn't it. I mean, it's you know, he see, I'm not as I'm not adversed. You do a lot of interviews. He talks to a lot of writers, certainly a lot more than me, So I'm not as versed as you are on you know some of this stuff.
I have to say that this guy, the Ellen, his son. Yeah, I'm a baseball.
Fan, and so when I found out the son was I just looked this up. I wrote a note to tell Dan this. I wrote a note. You're ready for this? His son drafted by the Boston Red Dogs, right, and in nineteen ninety eight. Okay, And I'm looking through the list of names, you know, and he didn't go with him because he wanted to go to college and all that stuff. But I'm looking through the other names. Who else is drafted that year? Mark Tashera who wound up
as the New York Yankees first place. And I'm going, okay, Fred doing a lot of any other instances in American criminal history where the son of a serial killer is drafted by a baseball team, let alone the Boston Red Sox.
And we have to let our grid friend Hank Garfield know doubt that.
Yeah, you know what I mean, but but you know it's it's But I guess.
What got me is when I talk to Sharon, she humanized everything for me.
That's why I was so lucky. This was not This is a book about a guy who was a serial killer, but he is a human Dan, that was is he even a day sitting on death row, but he's still a human Dan.
We got to tell people too that Sharon has an even more unusual and extraordinary rule in this story, in this case because later when he is questioned, even in the arson, he demands that she is in the room. And when they did get the arson, which is foreboding of what happens later, his denials turned into a full blown confession with Sharon at his side. Isn't that true?
Isn't that fascinating? I've never seen him by the way, you know, you know, the cops were very specific with me because again these are the Hillsborough County detectives who work loops the boy. For my money, it's one of the best police departments, maybe the best that I've ever worked with, detective fishers to the country. So they gave me full access to everything. It was, you know, unbelievable, and they explained to me that basically what was I
think here was that Sharon, Oh, rather Sam. When they got Sam into custody, he wanted Sharon there, and as it turns out, when he was charged with arson, you know, fifteen twenty years earlier or whatever. It was, the same thing happened. He wanted Sharon there. And the other thing that was really cool about this case was that it was and I'll just say it, it was a female detective. That's not common. Okay, let me just say this. Okay, I realized that we you know, we all watch TV
and all this stuff. But I got to tell you guys that it isn't very common to have a lead investigator in any case is a woman in my experience. Okay, it's changing, of course, but in this case, it was a woman named Dorothy Flair, who was so friggin good. And the other and the other detective on the case was Mike Wilette, who had sawtwaps the boy. Yeah, yeah, and I'm you know, I'm laughing. You know. It's like, oh,
small world, you know. I you know, it isn't very often you get to do more than one book in nonfiction where you're writing about the same cop, you.
Know, yeah, absolutely well, and the same the thing is the same county too. And we should get to this story that really broke this whole thing. That really was again it's very very movie esque, And we talked about him being a caretaker at this at his church, this east Ridge Baptist Church. But the thing is it doesn't pay all of the bills, so he needs another type of job. And through his history he's been hustling, and you know, just the nature of the economy. He had
jobs and they lost jobs and the economy change. But he was working for a woman named Beth Modene who had a property and he was a caretaker. So tell us about this story where he's a caretaker for her and he has all these duties. He has a garage or some tools. Let's just take it.
Gets the number one on this question.
Dan, Just get to just for for us, because we're skipping over some of it, but get to what she sees before what what later is realized because he sees something and then realizes something and he reacts.
Here's what happens.
Here's what happens. As we have discussed, prior to any known homicides, there is already he sort of a suspect kind of individual because of the way he's been acting
toward women. But only certain people know about it, all right, Well, to make ends meet, it's got a job as a private caretaker for a property out in the country, and and I went out there to look at it while I was writing a book, because you know, you got it when you you know the read you know all the readers that are listening tonight, and listeners, you guys expect me to do this stuff. Of course I'm going
to do it, you know. And so I go out and I take a look in this, that and the other thing, and then I put it together with with you know what's you know, what actually happens. Oh and I almost forgot it. As Dan used to be a TV series called Colombo. It is Columbus. You know, you'd always say I forgot one thing. Oh boy, the cops said in a report. See I got all the documentation. You know, this is a period of time where you know, you can still do it in Florida. It's one of
the few places they'll give you everything. And they gave me the documentation about this place called Hillsboro Avenue. What
why know, you know, I'm from Brooklyn. So when I was down there investigating, you know, it said that, well, there's all these prospits, and I wrote down that avenue and I went, oh my god, I've never seen ben in New York you know, reminded me of what forty second Street used to look like, you know, Okay, And it was quite interesting because it gave me a feeling for what I was writing about, which of course is the most important thing, you know, and and for the
individuals I was writing about. Did I get too far off track?
So we were talking about Beth modin Discovery, Sam smithers at her home, which was not unusual, but she does see some things that are very unusual, especially in retrospect.
Right, let me talk about that. What happens is Sam, let's just talk about it from Beth's point of view. That's better. Yeah, Beth shows up because it's her property, you know, and she's you know, Sam happens to be there. He's not there were all the pine, but he's there. She goes into like this sort of like a barn kind of structure and she sees some.
Blood on the walls.
And then they're on the floor, and she figures that it's maybe an animal or something, but she doesn't like she's getting bad vibes. Oh, and there's one more thing, which is there's a trail. Oh man, you can't write this stuff, I mean, you can't make this stuff up. Rather, there's a trail of like potato chips of doritos, is something leading outside the blood. Well, she realized, you know, she looks at him and she goes at Sam Smithers, and she says, I better get to take out of here.
And she does. She leaves. She goes down to the highway and then she from there she calls the police. So and eventually spinding, they go back to the place and they find some interesting things.
There is a pond behind the home, behind this home, and they, as you say, it looks like drag marks, like a drag path. They call it to this pond. Yes, when the mcglory comes and they look at this pond, what are they what do they find?
Well, then when the police respond to Modine's you know request trail. By the way, that's the first time I've ever heard that term. I don't know about you, but I'd never heard drag trail. Sounds like something from an old western, you know, with Jimmy Stewart. But anyway, you've watched me Stuart in the westerns Okay, anyway, try Winchester seventy three. But anyway, but here's what happens. Cop the cop follows the drag trail over, you know, with the chips.
Oh man, oh man, to this pond. Pond guys, you know, it's like you know, it's it's a small pond. What's in it? They find a body. They find a body is newly dead. And then they continue to look in the pond and they bring in the dive team, which I got to kick out if that got me, that get me a couple of lines from the book, now, right, And so they bring in the dive team, and they find a body at the other end. And now they got to take a look at these two bodies. See what the heck is going on?
Now? They look at that, they find two bodies. Obviously one's more decomposed. Of course, they go through prints for match. Why do they come about the go ahead?
Go ahead, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, keep going to keep going. They go for they go for prints, keep going.
So they eventually get an identification of what they're calling Jane do number two, the first person in the water.
Yes, and what happened It's interesting this is this see I find out that stuff the This is actually the case where I started.
Understanding, Oh boy, I'm gonna sound sound like I'm a scientist. I don't need to by body, how long it takes, the conditions, and so forth and so on, because these the the the the these people in Hillsborough County will talk to me about this, and it was fascinating. You know, some of this is going to be obvious to most people, I suppose, but you know I never think of that it Dan, I mean, I don't know if anybody does.
But if you're in a warm human climate, a body is going to decompose faster than in a cooler climate. Number one. Number two, if the body is in water, warm water, well, thank god. In this particular case it was a pond. If he dumped the body in you know, the ocean or something, the sharks would have gotten it. You know, this was different. They were able to use forensics. And if this was late nineties.
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Yeah, you know, it's let's talk about you.
No, go ahead, No, I'm just you know, it's funny Dan.
You know when we talk.
By the way, I said to myself, I have to tell this to Dan. Uh, you know, it's it's a lot cheaper to talk to you than to my therapist. Would I ever tell you that? Go ahead?
But still not great results? Maybe? Uh, Let's talk about Christy Cowen because this case demonstrates everything and also really demonstrates to the reader and our audience tonight the incredible access you have to be able to get this is beyond behind the scenes. This is when we talked about Beth Modem and at this property and at the pond, Christy Cowen is still alive in this pond with an axe wound chopping the head. He had tried to strangle her,
and she was still making noise. He says. Later, as we find out from you, Fred, from your incredible research, that she's still moaning in the back, So he goes and he hits her with pieces of wood. Finally she's still moaning. He goes out and gets a hole, aids in the water and chops her till she's dead. This is the kind of information that the police eventually find
out that this is Christy Cowen. Yeah, they find out the other identification of the other woman, and now they have Sam Smithers arrested, and how they proceed.
Yeah, and as you're just as you're laying it out, Dan, it's very interesting because in a way you're almost laying it out like a prosecutor would. I'm not saying you're the prosecutor. I'm just saying. And what I find interesting about this is this is somebody You're sitting here and I'm shaking my head. You see, I felt the same way, and we'll talk about it eventually. I feel the same way about this guy and still do as the judge that sentenced him to death, which is there was a
lot of stuff going on here. And look, there's no surprise to you to your listeners that you know I'm not a death penalty guy for a lot of different reasons. Okay, you know what, I prefer studying these guys under microscopes, so we could prevent future crimes. But in any case, you know what happens here, you know, when we talk about, oh boy, see these prostitutes. You know, I was trying to decide when I was when I should tell you this. Christy Cowen and Denise Roach jk new York, New York.
She came originally from Jamaica, went to New York, et cetera. Callen was in Connecticut after I published the book. Originally I was contacted by Oh my god that this shocked me. Dan. You know, I was actually talking to somebody who had walked away, you know, had found a way in life.
I don't have any words, you know, because she could have been evicted, but you know she turned it around, you know, and and that and what what that gave me an appreciation of, is how easy it is for people to fall from you know, wherever they are to someplace else, money, not getting a job, the illness, you name it, and then having to be so desperate. And I keep it and I've seen this in a number of instances.
Yeah. You you include in the book that you talk about Hillsbury County and Hillsbury Hillsboro Avenue, and this is the strip. These women work on it, and they had friends, and so they were looking out after each other, and so when they weren't around for a while, they knew that something was up. But also they had rudimentary precautionary techniques, like they wouldn't go to a John's house per se
because it would be less control. But in this case, in this case, it was unless there was plenty of crack, unless there was plenty of money.
Yes, that's how this happened. Yes, he was able to use drugs to lure the women to go with him what he wanted to go to, so he could. I mean, you know it's you know not you know, we're dealing with somebody. When you start dealing with somebody like a Sam Smithers, all logic goes out the window. You're dealing with a killer and his You know, you could keep you know, you could say it, you know this happened, that happened in his life, blah blah blah. But you
still don't know what's going on. The fact is he's a killer. You know, this is somebody that you know needs to be put away.
You introduce a character that's again very colorful. There's Pop's baker A very yeah. And so he's a corporal and so he's he's in control of people like Dorothy Flair. And so when they finally put this together with Sam Smithers, they have to question him. Of course, they have the approach. Again we talked about Sharon's role, his wife's role in this. Yeah, what was that question? Like again, what was what did
they what did they get from that? And we alluded to it already, but tell us what happens in this question?
I like, I'm sitting here, I got a big smile on my faith because when you mentioned Pop's baker. What happened was when I first started working in Hillsborough County. This is the third book I wrote about Hellsborg County. It was another one.
But what I'm getting at.
Is that Pop's baker was that is ahead of everything. So I knew, this is the dude. You know, he he knew what he was doing, and he was signed so and so to do this, and he has signed so instead to do that, and so forth so on. So that that's number one. I knew that, you know, they knew what they were doing here. Now, wait a minute, what was your other question? I'm sorry, Uh, well, we talked.
About you know, Pop spoke with with Sharon he wanted and she was. She was there right with him, right there at the at the police station. But she wasn't in an interrogation room. But Dorothy Flair as you right question. Sam.
Yeah, here's what happens. We go back to what happened back in chadd and Newgad, Tennessee, was when Sam and I sometime in the early eighties had tried to burn down his church and that call are and soboard, and he wouldn't talk to the cops unless they put Sharon in. Well, you know, fade out fit in. He says the same
thing here. So what happens is, I've never seen this Flair brings in, Uh you know, if there's flaring will at too many cops, they're gonna split up ones canna interview uh Smith that Sam and the others can interview Sharon. And what happens is they you know, they bring them both in and they send them down and they start talking to them. And what happens is eventually they get Sam to talk with Sharon in the room and then Sam starts.
Contest of course, like any psychopathic serial killer, he'd rather try to avoid total responsibility. And so in fact, there is ye is there. There's no denials, but there is a sanitization of why this happened as well, isn't there? Oh?
Yeah?
See the thing is when you see sanitization, boy, that's a hell of a good word. You're dealing with a situation where this guy was it ha been with church taking. He was a pillar of his community. People don't want somebody like that, you know, who they supported to be reported as a serial killer for God's sake, you know. And again what's so interesting to me is that what's happening at the point, and you mentioned it earlier, now
that he's brought in and they're questioning Smithers. Larry Lingo is the investigator on the on the earlier homicide with Cruz.
He's sitting there and they and you know, they wind up using forensics, you know, to get Smithers DNA and they get what essentially is a mitochondrial DNA match, which simply means that they don't have them one hundred and ten percent, but they've got him over fifty percent, you know, without going into what you know, you know, I'll let your next for ends six scientists going to DPLs on this. But the point, the point is, uh, they tied them into that. So now you've got three, then you've got
to suspected one and that. In other words, we've got three people dead that we can't tie into Sam Smithers. Three. Now, then we've got a four, which I don't deal with too much in the book because we don't have too much information in the Florida Panhandle. But even at three to say, isn't it Steven? You know what? You know, Dan, As I get older and I get more experience, these are people's mothers, sisters, brothers, you know what I mean.
We have to have a certain amount of compassion about what we're doing, and I think we do do have that. You know, I think we do have that. But you know this, but you know again, the good news here, good news here is that the the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Department, they're fantastic And I what else to say. And you know they're not saying you of anybody you know. And by the way, they live right there, live they're only
down the blocks from this place. That makes great Cuban cigars, so if they could buy me off in a heartbeat. But hey, there you go.
Just what's interesting is in the book you detail this dogged effort by police, this Dorothy Flair. She even wrote the president of Trojan Condom Company wasn't the president, but somebody important that Trojan Condom company to get a match to put Sam at the murder scene for that number three. So this is over and beyond police work.
Yeah, you know what, oh man, you know what you're giving me perspective seriously, because you talk to people you know more than I do, you know, all over the place. And yes, here's what happens. Dorothy Flair, who is the investigator in a case, becomes aware that there is a what he called a like like a rap thank you, a rapper from a condom at the at the crime scene where he was, you know, at this at this place out in the country that he was where he
killed these two women. But he also made love sit them there. So they found this rapper and it turns out, old man, it was a good what a piece of detective work.
Oh man.
They went back and they talked to one of the victims, I think it was Denise's. I think it was Denise, but it's not even relevant. It's like it's one of the two victims friends who said she gave the victim ten bucks. The flair. The detective on the case finds this wrapper at the scene of the crime, checks it with the company and is able to trace it back and eventually find out that it was that it was given. It was the same condom given to the victim by
her friend. And that is a piece of exculpatory incriminated evidenced against Sam Smithers that puts sh essentially into the death chamber, though he's of course still alive.
You talk about that as well, that most times that have defended will not take the stand, even in a
death penalty case. Of course, in this case, after denying that Sharon, the confession he gave with Sharon, he tried to say it was course, so of course we go through the obligatory attempts to nullify what has already been done, what has already been said, and then they try to do a diminished capacity defense, of course, everything that they can death penalty opponents, A couple of people are accused, so he has different legal aid attorneys, but really gets
up on the stand, and what kind of story does he weave when he has the opportunity. What does he say? Sharon has been with him till another person gets in her life, but she had been loyal to him, well, regardless of what he thought was a course confession he gets on that stand. What's his version, Well, he has to say.
Just too weird. He claims she's the victim of a conspiracy. Some mysterious individuals trying to convict.
Him controlled them. He was threatened, he had to do the duty, but he also got paid. It was really interesting, he says. The guy forced me, threatened me to kill these be disposed of the people he killed, but then he gave me four hundred bucks from my effort.
Yeah, well, no evidence to that. He's full of cracks.
It hits.
But it was good, Joe, it was good. Hey, I'm going to get a political comment in there. It's good, especially if you say you're gonna pay with cash. Yeah, I'm sorry, but I don't probably I didn't get I'm okay on that one, right, Dan?
Oh yeah, yeah, the oh.
No, no, it's important Dan, you know. And and by the way, Dan, I have to tell you something since you're you you are, thank god, a Canadian citizen. The New York Mets lost twenty five to one or something last night, so the Washington Nationals used to be the expos Okay, Dan twenty five runs. Excuse me, let's move on. I know, off track.
The well we talk about this death penalty. We have always always had opponents, obviously, and people trying to save this guy's life regardless of what. But there are mitigating circumstances and other things called aggravators and mitigators. There wasn't any mitigators in this was there There was attempts.
But if you're you know what as it you know what, You're forcing me to be objective, which is important as a journalist. And at the same time it reminds me of the decision that Bill Twente, the judge in the case, when I interviewed, which is very rare.
For me, and that is that, according to the law of the God, was guilty.
There's nothing else to say. Okay, I'm not for the death penalty, as I've said, but i will tell you that here in Florida where I do live, but one of the things they do is with someone's in that situation. And I'm not kidding on this one. They'll give them over a million bucks to defend themselves, you know what I mean. So this was not something with the mitigating circumstances.
You know, you know how many people you know, how many people that are listening to our show tonight, to your show tonight, not our show, to your show tonight, across the world. How many of you have faced abuse as a child, but you grew beyond it. That's not an excuse. No, that is not an excuse to commit Sorry, guys, it's not an excuse.
At the same time, there is there was an examination in here, and at least the defense lawyers tried to paint a portrait that the mother Lenny and the father. The father was an alcoholic and then the mother beat the kids. But it was mixed in with religiosity so that when he became a deacon. Again there's again I don't agree with any kind of blame. I agree with you that again, there's if you have to take responsibility, and that's it. I don't want to hear too much
about how this would create it. But the thing is that this humiliation again, whether you know, lots of people have been humiliated. I've had humiliation. You've been humiliated. I'm sure at least what we thought was humiliation. But it seems that this is the reoccurring theme with these guys, that they're such a fragile ego that can can't get over that mother's domineering control. He would use as you're writing a book. She was still controlling in his marriage.
When they want a bigger, beautiful home, she was still It's very weird. She would stay in the house and say, well, I don't know if I could feel comfortable. You've overpaid for this house. Obviously, I don't know. You might be the house might be taken away. I can't really feel comfortable. And he still conceded to his mother even through his marriage.
Do you see what you're saying? You're you know, my god, Yes, this guy's making excuses. Sure, okay, and you know when you look at it, the city yourself. Wait a second, how many I'll say the end, how many people listening to us tonight have been through these situations? You guys are fine individuals, otherwise I'd be tracking you down. So the thing is, the thing is, we got it. You know, there's other aspects, and again, you know we you know
my god. I mean, you know, we could talk about this forever about there's got to be some other ask It's not just a question of nature and not nurture. Rather, there's got to be some other aspects involved here. And I suspect, I've always suspected that when it comes to serial killers, you're talking about something genetic and eventually, you know, eventually, you know, whenever you know, these larship enterprise gets around to it, they'll figure out what happened.
Well, you know, I think the thing is our treatment. Like we said that, people don't really care the police. Again, I hate the pay up on, but police historically will tell people, or have told people nermously numerous times. Listen, they've probably just gone away, You've got nothing to worry about, and they're probably well intended, but it's not good advice, and it ends up at least most people's experiences that they don't seem to be as concerned. And I can
seem to understand because they don't have any leads. They're leading a dangerous lifestyle. And again there's no leads, so there can be less, less effort or more effort has to be put into something that people will agree that there's less effort in finding these people, in caring about people that seemingly, according to the police that work with these people all the time, they're not helping themselves, they're hurting,
they're putting themselves in danger. But also that the idea that we know that over and over again these serial killers target these people, and yet as a society, once a person falls through that cracks of addiction, then is selling themselves on the street. Then the serial killer takes out all his frustrations in his life. But the thing is that these prostitutes and prostitution, you open up a phone book, even in innocent fantastic Canada, it's just like
a pizza that is accepted. So the street prostitute that's fifteen year olds and sixteen years old again is tolerated somehow. It's illegal, it's immoral, it's important, it could be our daughters, it could be anyone involved with us, but it's not
a priority. And the serial killer, over and over and over again goes there to vent and then in the courts, of course we can put them to death, but these problems still exist, and we can raise awareness, but I don't know how much more aware of this we can get your book. Everyone's book tells about this, so you know, we are again.
No, you know what I love about what you're saying. You're really getting into morals and ethics. And I totally agree with you, obviously, I mean, we are. You want to know something, I'll just say it. I don't know how it is in other place, you know, I'm you know, I try to keep up with what's going on. What I find is hard is that, yeah, we're talking about murder,
we're talking about serial killers. We're the good guys. In other words, there was a period of time when when there were there were role models to be heroes, good guys, and that doesn't exist anymore. You know, I don't know. All I can say is you know the when I you know, I when I was reading again what I wrote about Sam Smithers, and I was reading it today, and it's been a long time, you know since I read it. Dan, I was reading this and I was going,
why the hell did somebody stop this guy earlier? You know? That's what got me.
Yeah, well, I think the only thing you can do. And I was speaking to somebody just recently talking about sex trafficking, and I said, the courts have a responsibility and recognizing the kinds of personalities by their proven behavior that exhibits and and distance selves or separates from less serious Again, I hate to use that less serious criminals. There are some criminals, you know, that are obvious to everyone, it seems, except that that conviction record that this person
is a dangerous person. And this is the kind of person we need to recognize as having this kind of behavior. Because we see stalking, and we see breaking enter, and we see some of these things turned to murder. So of course you can't prosecute people for a break and enter where no one is hurt. But when there is a recognized violent act. I think, if you look at all these true crime cases, if that were the case, then it would have been intervention before more bodies. Let's put it that way.
You know, I.
Couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I keep seeing this in various cases. I've written it down, and I go, what is somebody intervene over here? What is somebody intervene over there? You know? And I'm especially talking about serial killers, you know, And so you know, look, it is what it is. But when I wrote, when I wrote the Deacon of death. I guess the thing that got me the most was that, and I mentioned it earlier, enabling
this guy from a very young age. That's what's interesting, you know, when you actually get access to background information on a serial killer and you can sort of report that sort of, but you report to the reader, but what the person's about, And that's what I did here.
What kind of information you know, because people really don't see the kind of information that you've gathered because it's just interwoven into the into then air of what exactly did you get from Sharon? I mean again, is very unique for you to talk to a wife of a serial killer, and especially this kind of wife that was supportive yet couldn't believe, especially for a long time, that her husband could ever do any of this. So she was a very naive woman from a particular sort of
background as well. What kind of stuff? Tell us more, even just tell us more about the actual meeting with her and what she actually gave you.
There was no physical meeting. What happened was I was able to track her down through records. I called her, I told her what I was doing, and we just started talking for quite some time, which is the way any journalist would do it. I'm thinking of Ronan Pharaoh, but my father is not Woody al or you know. But anyway, but I just called her and we started chatting and we formed a relationship, and I just told
her I was just trying to you know. I told her what I learned from Carl Bernstein maybe a lecture once that I was at Bernstein said that the idea journalism is the best obtainable version of the truth. That's what I told her. I was trying to find the best detainable version of the truth. So she helped me in telling me what her life was like with her husband and so forth. And it was a very unusual situation, certainly, you know, it was the first time I ever had
that kind of a situation. And she was forthcoming, very forthcoming, and you know, impressed me as just a really nice human being.
It's interesting, you right, that they met when she was twelve and he was fourteen, and I guess school or religious settings, yes, And they never were apart until he was questioned and one of the detectives said, listen, we think that you should call somebody, not stay with him tonight. Then, so she was convinced and then he kept saying, after for an incredible amount of time, you left me. He was incredulous that she had actually left him, because they hadn't been a part for years and years.
And years, grade point, grade point. What happened was they met at such a young age. They were together sort of like the I'll think of the country western singer in a second, but it was they were together every day of their lives from the age of the ba twenty or so. Okay, when they got married. I think she was seventeen, he was twenty, and that was it, you know, and they they were always together. They had this relationship where every day they were together, they were
never apart. That is, neither one of them ever traveled per se. She also was a very obviously trusting individual and trusted that he was doing anything unusual, event you know, late at night, and of course that wasn't the case. He was leaving late at night and going out making it the workers and did it in the early morning hours and so forth and so on.
What's interesting too, is that he had this secret life and then she had no idea of this. He was successful in keeping that, but he did have a quite a bit of a different character, even scared off that. It's noted that even scared off a couple of people with some of his demands. So he couldn't really reach out to regular women for an affair. He had to go to these streets to these people that were desperate for some of the things that he wanted, wanted to
do sexually. Correct, you know, that is a.
Really excellent observation. That's absolutely true. He he he wanted saying is sexually that you know, I don't We don't have, you know, a lot of details, but he certainly was into a certain amount of physical stuff. And the guy had, you know, he had a screw loose, and and now we could try to analyze it from now into doomsday
regarding the mother, but it's a waste of time. It's really a waste of time because what it all comes down to is he was an abusive individual who would eventually commit at least two murders that we know of, possibly three.
There was an inmate that was involved, and like many of these cases, there's always somebody it seems ready to come forward. I thought that, oh, maybe it's going to be talk of other murders, but it wasn't. But what was that talk that sort of seemed to conflict with what Sharon thought and some other people thought about the former deacon, just.
That he'd done it. He said that he'd done it, and he was you know when he went into some detail whatever it might be, but he was just saying that he'd done it. And that's where it is, you know, where he was dating from, you know, his story to the police later where he said it was some strange individual.
Yeah. Look, you know, I think it's interesting too when the psychopathic nature of these guys is evident. When they make that decision to take the stand. Somebody says, well, that's a last ditch effort and they might as well try to defend themselves, but they really it is an ultimate I think in the narcissism that the psychopath has that he thinks, well, I think I might be able
to do this. I'll get that director examination, I'll get that story out there, and then I'll go to toe to toe with these people.
Oh. I agree with that, absolutely. There, there is the narcissism. You're talking about. This classic absolutely class.
If you talk about Sharon as well, that the spell that he weaved on her. She even visited him in prison every day for many years. But there was a person named Rex.
Boy.
I don't know if you talked to her on the phone about this, but she was able to break away from this life of being dependent upon Sam Smithers, wasn't she.
Yeah?
She had.
She found a boyfriend and eventually after he was in prison for a while, and she wound up forcing him and marrying this other fellow.
Yeah, and that's what happened, you know.
She was able to find a way to.
Move on.
But obviously it must have been terrible difficult.
Yeah, and she knew at some point too that she needed to shield her son from this as well. When she did realize well, despite thinking she knew him, she needed to protect her son.
Yeah, but the problem was our son was approaching adulthood.
Mhmm.
In fact, one of the things I was I was able to research was that their son. And I'm not going to give his name. I'd rather he keep his anonymity. He is now a physical therapist in Boston, So while he never played for the Fox, he's up there doing physical therapy, which is cool.
He was convicted for denise Roach and he was Christy Cowen and and Cruse.
Not cruise.
No, not cruise. So only he was he was convicted for for cowen and roach. Yes, was there. They just did not were not able to make have enough evidence to get any more convictions. I know that you write in the book that there was other police from other jurisdictions looking into that h Was there any leads from that? Was there any results from that at all?
No, there weren't. If they'd got him, they would have done it. But no, they didn't get it. They couldn't nail him on anything else. The cruise situation was such that, as as I mentioned, it was not DNA matchable, but it looked like you know, they did it with the monochandrial DNA, which is about a fifty percent match, which essentially says it's frombody, it's from someone in a particular family.
Duh.
So yeah, but it's not enough for a conviction, right, Well, for that matter of execution, what was.
The you alluded to the conviction was the death penalty? And just tell us about the state itself. Why he doesn't have a quick order to be put to death or didn't have a quick order.
Well, there is no such thing as a quick order in Florida. Basically, you know, the way it works in Florida is the at the time this occurred, the jury votes on whether or not to convict the individual, and then the jury votes whether the individual gets death. However, what has changed here since this so that, in other words, all the individuals who are condemned to death on the basis of just you know, the jury saying it, it doesn't work. They're going back to having a jury look
at it. The point is right now, SAMs others.
Yeah, he's on.
Death broke, but he's not gonna be executed for a lot. Okay, it's not gonna happen for a while. And yeah, there's a lot of guys and the further ahead.
Have you heard of any movement or anything, any any events, anything, any stories emanating from the cell of Sam Smithers, as he've made any statements, any anything publicly that he's done, any word from them.
Nothing, nothing, quiet, very quiet.
Yeah, interesting, very quiet. And you said that this was the Hillsbury County was It's been a source of stories for you three times now for three books. Very interesting.
Yeah, they lost the Boy and then of Death and then this book, which is.
The can Death.
And I've also written.
You know better.
I wrote a book called uh Well, I read a book about a murder case up at Tallahassee, Flora, which is trail of Trails of death. But this is different because this particular police department is extremely open. Now the state of the state itself is because we have an open records well, but these individuals I find to be the best out.
Yeah, that's it. All the the accumulative things that have happened in this case, the incredible access you had, and like you say, the open records policy of Florida has created this book. It's just incredible graphic detail. And then we get the incredible background of Sam growing up and his odd family, including his mother Lenny, and just the again the sad and disheartening life of these prostitutes on
the strip. Here you even include, I mean, the sexual activities that these people offer, the meager prices, and just the heartbreaking thing of the protection that the Christy Cowan had to say that she was not going to go to these John's apartments, and then quickly soon as he offered a little bit of money, and and then there they're you know, their fate was sealed. So I want to congratulate you on I know it's a book that's in the past, but again a true crime classic, Deacon
of Death. I want to thank you, Fred for coming on and sharing the story with us. For those they might want to talk to you, I mean they you're out there and you're out on message boards and you're out there on discussion boards. But for those that just heard you for the first time, tell us about your say, website and Facebook pages.
Fred.
I my Facebook page is you know, Fred Rosen whatever they call it at Facebook, and I'm just I'm just putting up my site, which is Fred Rosen dot com.
So there we go.
Look forward, I look forward to talking to people and I can't thank you enough for giving me the opportunity to talk to your one million listeners across the world.
Well, thank you very much, Fred, And it's always nice because we always, as you know on Facebook, there's been always talk of how people love our interviews, the banter between us and just talking about your fantastic through crime books. So thank you very much. Fred. You have a great evening and I know I will be talking to you again real soon.
Okay, you take care and now audios, how do you
Hold Fred good night, bye,