CORPSEWOOD-Daniel Ellis

you're free. Welcome bonus. That's Chumbu Casino dot com and live the Chumba Lane or.

death or had the painting inspired the murder. The case became a media sensation, with allegations of satanic cults, supernatural curses, and mind control experiments. The only things stranger than the murders themselves was the legal odyssey that followed, resulting in four Supreme Court decisions and revelations that would stun the

judicial system. After years of reachure research involving court transcripts, audio recordings, and interviews with the participants in the case, including the murderers themselves, author Daniel Ellis peals back the layer of legend to reveal the truth behind one of the most bizarre true crime cases ever to emerge from the dark Southern Woods. The book that we're featuring this evening is Corpsewood, a True Crime Like no Other, with

my special guest, journalist and author Daniel Ellis. Welcome to the program, and thank you for greeing this interview Daniel Ellis.

places in the area. I was just curious. I thought, well, it might make an interesting screenplay if there was a haunted house or something. And this person wrote down on the piece of paper said well, here, I know of a haunted place. And this girl wrote down the word corpsewood and said, go and google that. And I'm like, corkswood, what is that? She just google it? So I looked it up and I said, well, okay, there wasn't much on it. That there was a positive information back then

on the case. And when I learned what it was, I said, well, this doesn't really intrigue me. I said, this isn't a ghost story. This is some sort of a terrible murder that happened. But I put it away for about six months, and I came around the piece of paper again and I was gonna just toss it,

and I don't know. Something about it kept I kept wondering, well, these things I'm seeing on the internet, they seem to be so outrageously embellished, and all these things about these evil men that were murdered and all this, and I want to know what the real story was. So I don't know. It just it's like one of those songs when you first hear it, you hate it and you go,

I don't want to hear that again. Then the more you've listened to it, you know, there's something about this that I can't stop listening to it, And after a while it becomes your favorite song, you know. I'm sure as a journalist you may have that sort of bug that gets in you. But I started going down to the courthouse where the thing happened, and I asked a look at the transcripts, and of course they stacked from forward a ceiling and I began reading, and the more

I would I would read about the truth. You know, there were all these unanswered questions, and I started recognizing names of people in there, like our local was superior court judge down the street from me has an office. He was the prosecutor back then, and our city attorney was one of the defense attorneys. So I started reaching out to all these people I did not know, and I would just start bugging people of this old case. And I was surprised how many of them were interested

in talking about it. And you know, one thing would lead to another, and I'm sure you know from your experience you know exactly what I mean. It's like you just can't stop, and the more doors that get closed in your face, the more that you want to continue. Anyway, I'm sorry to be sober bose, but that's what happened. Next thing I knew I was it was consuming a lot of my life, and I was traveling to uncover documents and talk to people far away.

northwest Georgia. You say, surrounded by the Chattahoochee National Forest, Chatooga County. Tell us where this is in northwest Georgia and set the stage for what this place is really like. And before we talk about Raymond Williams and a discovery on December sixteenth, well.

it's a very poor county. And that's one of the reasons that doctor Scudder was able to purchase the land that was there. He was looking for some inexpensive acres of hardwood trees and he was able to buy forty acres for ten five hundred dollars back in nineteen seventy five, and it's a very depressed economy. But it's still very rural to this day the area, and you know, if the people need anything substantial, they have to drive as

far as Rome, Georgia. Sorry, all these pit places. It's hard to describe without looking at a map that the Atlanta would be around ninety miles away, ninety miles to the south of Chijugu County and Tennessee. Chattanooga, Tennessee is about forty miles to the north something there about. But the area where the house was was up on the it's in the mountains and it's an area that we

call Taylor's Ridge. It goes back really far back before the Revolutionary War, you know, with the British, and it's got a lot of history with Cherokee Indians and settlers. But anyway, it's still very remote to this day. And doctor Scudder decided to build this house up there with no running water, electricity. He designed it himself, even though he'd never laid a brick before in his life. You know, he'd been a university for professor. And they built the

strange house. It was shaped like an old passioned bathtub, you know, the like the clawfoot type of bathtub. It's in an oblong shape. And they lived off the land, basically planted their own food. They had an herb garden. It's very frugally. They dug a well and they lived. They had mountain water. They cooked with wood stove. They made candles and they recycled the wax and made new candles.

And they it was doctor Scudder and his partner friend Joey Odam, and they had two English mastifs that they had brought down from Chicago with them, and they did the pretty comfortable life considering it was some people would say it's very austere that they. You know, Scudder had written to friends it is the happiest he had ever

been in his life. And he enjoyed it far more than all the creature comforts that he had when he lived on the West Side of Chicago, because he didn't have the bills to worry about anymore, and no more stress, just you know, living from day to day and reading and writing and doing his gardening, and he was always

building some sort of project. That the house is full of Renaissance air antiques and so that's that was one of the things that through the investigators the on December sixteenth, when after Raymond Williams had reported seeing bullet holes in the kitchen door and he reported to the police that there was some problem. He didn't go in or anything. He was afraid at least all the bullet holes in the door. And when the Sheriff's department showed up, they'd

never been inside. They had no idea. The nearest neighbors were something like five miles away, and even to this day the roads through what there were all these unpaved logging roads, very remote, and so when the Sheriff's department came in, they didn't know what to make of this place. They found the two dead men. Doctor Scudder had been bound and gagged and had Evan shot in head five times. Joey Odam was lying on the floor have a shirt on and he had also been shot and they had

five times. And the dogs had also been shot and killed in the study. And of course the thing that got into the media because a lot of the law enforcement people were they were just delivering all sorts of statements just off the cuff, which you know now they would be much more controlled than nineteen eighty two, it was a different story. So reporters were outside and they would say, oh, it's you know, they'd say, oh, it's some they saw some homosexual literature laying on the floor.

Now there, it wasn't it was like erotica. It'd be really tame stuff, you know, to us today. But it was reported in the media that the house was full of medieval weapons and bizarre sexual equipment. And doctor Scudder had a couple of skulls in the house. He had a he had a plaster or resident skull sitting on the desk. You know, it's like the ones you'd see back in the old days, like a classic study. He'd seel like in an English manner. You know, you sit in the movies all the time, and so he was

sort of he built the house for effect. So when you come in, you think, oh, this is like a set from an old hammer horror movie. You know. He had the bookshelves with all sorts of books. A lot of them were just used for decoration, a lot of impressive looking in law books that he got at some rummage sale. I had the privilege of looking at some of those books someone had gotten and I that's why I was able to look good. And I saw that the pages hadn't even been cut on some of them,

so no one ever read these books. But there were a lot of books that of course had been read, but they were from everything you can imagine. Anyway, I'm sorry, did I do interrupt me? I'm rambling on here. I don't know where to stop. But that's the way they when they did.

seen a house like this. They really did. These two people by themselves had cleared this land, and we're talking about a very remote place, and they found a remote place within a remote place to build this unique place. You talk about stone stairs inside, so very much like a castle. This and also tell us about as we talked about in the beginning in the introduction, about this

self portrait with him gag. So I think this is very important and tell us more of the actual things that these people in nineteen eighty two or maybe even people today would be not familiar with that were about the occult that Charles Scudder and Joey Odom had in this very very unique castle like building.

they in different cultures it's considered good luck whatever. But Scudder had it where the points are up, which is the way that the Church of Satan laid it in their logo. Well, what that was just it was just kind of like basically they were tired and feathered with Scudder odam more with this brush that they were there were these devil worshippers, which actually was not true. The case was that Joey Odom always maintained that he was Catholic. He never said he had anything to do with the

accult or anything Charles Scudder. On the other hand, he was always kind of a He liked his sort of tweak people's noses. He did this one he was at the university. His colleagues in Chicago told me that because it was a very stayed, good, button down profession, you know, to be in the medical field and at that university. So you know, here's Scudder walking around with the white lab coat and basically a clown those and making fun of a lot of things because he didn't, you know,

he was a serious scientist. But he the students loved them because he could relate. He would he would mess with people in that way. But his colleague said that he only did the stuff with the occult. He only messed with you if he thought he was going to offend you or ruffle your feathers. But if you were in on kind of like the joke, he didn't even bother with you because there's no fun. It's like an adolescent boy trying to scare you with a rubber snake

or something. Well, what he did was when he got down to Chachuga County, he of course he purposely put those up on the chimneys and he made a stained glass pentagram that he put in the house and all this was of things because he Charles Stedder, he really did follow a lot of the the tenets of the Church of Satan. But the Church of Satan is not what a lot of people think that it is. They

don't believe in a literal Satan. They don't believe in, you know, they don't believe in the supernatural at all, as far as beings or ghosts or that sort of thing. But for Scudder and the time he grew up, that was he found a lotther concepts very liberating, you know, to be a gay man, and that they basically in the Church of Satan, anything goes between consenting adults. So he didn't actually belong to the Church of Satan's it's widely reported even now on the Internet that he did.

He didn't because one thing he didn't he didn't want to pay one hundred dollars for a lifetime membership. But what he did was he paid ten dollars to get their newsletter called The Cloven Hoof, so that he could he would just read what's going on or whatever. But he didn't feel like it was important to join things. But what happens is Okay, this is where it's really

kind of muddy. Okay, even though he didn't he didn't worship any entities or anything like that, but as a science just he had become frustrated with what he called ritual science, the reductionists type of things that they did in the scientific field, and he began to turn to metaphysical studies. And a lot of people will say, well, isn't that the same thing, Well, no, it's not. He I found when I was doing doing this research that a lot of scientists, it's more common than I thought.

On the side, a lot of them do experiment with other things. And I found that very surprising because so many of them are, you know, what are called reductionists, and they don't believe in anything that you can't measure or quantify or whatever. But there was a there was a push in Scudder's time to start studying consciousness and

what the nature of it is. And so anyway, what Scutter was starting to do, you know, when I said metaphysical studies, he was experimenting with esoteric airing is the esoteric arts, I guess, including string, which is it's an ancient it's been around, you know, forever, ancient Persia. They used to use it to look into the It's like you create like a viewing device using like a reflective surface. Nostradama supposed they did it with a bowl of black ink and a candle, and you put yourself in an

altered state of consciousness. And the practitioners of this sort of thing say that you can see other dimensions, other worlds, different times. And I was amazed at how common this once was, and the eighteen hundreds, mirror gazing was all the rage. I found some postcards in an antique store where they showed a lady from the eighteen nineties and

looking into a mirror. And there was a myth that you could if she looked into a mirror a Halloween, she'd see her future husband's face or something like that. And anyway, Scudder was experienting with that sort of thing. He told a friend of his that I know that. He said that when he was experimenting in Chicago one time,

would scrying to see if there's anything to it. That he said he he envisioned the way he thought he was going to die someday, and he as long as he could hold the vision, he used a black mirror and a candle, and he painted that portrait. That the that the police found and the and the way his body was found was the way it was displayed in the painting. Of course, the cops don't believe in crystal

balls and this sort of thing. There their their take on it from what they told me when I interviewed the ones involved, and they're like, well, we're thinking that some murderers saw this painting and they copied it. You know, it was they influenced them. But when I when I talked to the killers, only one of the killers had been in the house before the murders, and so he's the only one that actually knew any of the contents of the house. And he insisted that he never saw

that painting until after his trial. He said, yeah, I know the one you're talking about it. He goes that one was because the cops asked me about it. But he goes, I swear it's just the coincidence. It just

it just happened that way. It's a conundrum, but I have not found you know, like in the book, I can't conclude which way it was because every when I've talked to that we're involved in they're just kind of like, I don't know how that came about, but Scudder is several years younger in that portrait, and I have a picture of it in on the back cover because he painted it, you know, many years before he ever ever

dreamed of coming to Georgia. And it's strange because he also painted some like yellow, yellowish green bricks that are broken all around his portrait. And it's funny because now that the house has been burned many years ago, and if you go up there now, it very much looks like that, like it's in pieces with bricks like that,

and it's a it's very mys serious. The other thing that I looked at was when I obtained a photographs of that portrait from the GBI that Georgia grew over investigations, and there's there's what appeared to be gunshots in the portrait, like broken glass, and there's a like a diagonal line that was created in real life when I inverted the picture and I did an overlay on the computer, and that crack follows that, and I'm thinking, that's so strange.

I mean, but again, you know, that could be a coincidence, but it kind of gave me the creeps. I'm thinking, you know, I don't know if there's anything to this strying and all this sort of thing. I really don't only know from the people that I've interviewed and those

who are into it. I've talked to people who who no longer do those things that they at one time they were into the occult or including scrying, and they told me it's something to avoid because they said, yeah, you can see other things, but they said that while you're looking through that mirror, other things on the other side are looking at you, which is kind of creepy.

Said that you allow things to come through a portal, and that you're supposed to draw like a circle around yourself with salt or something in light light candle before you do it. I think it doesn't sound like anything I need to be doing. You know, it's whether there's anything to it or not. I mean, I mean, sure, who wouldn't like to get the lottery numbers or something and you know just once but well, you talk.

let's talk about this terrort card reading. He believed in this supernatural enough and then start concentrating on tarort card reading. In fact, he was doing it for friends until one night one particular person came by. His tone, even the way he spoke was different, Doctor Scudder, So tell us a little bit about that, his sort of the evening that happened, and what was the result. Well, then a little bit more credence to that the occult had something to do with this.

trained in for many years that he taught. But so he was engaging in these things like the scribe that I mentioned, But he was really Many of the people who knew him talked about the uncanny accuracy he had with greeting your cards, you know, using the Darrow and then doubt that I mentioned in the book was had been substantiated by two different people that he had done reading for a man named Claude Buller Drew in a small store, and the guy didn't believe in it anything,

and so, and Scudder was always cool as a cucumber and as a matter of fact, but he became alarmed when he was doing this reading and he basically told the guy that you know, was that he saw his death, that it was imminent, and the guy just kind of laughed it off. And a month later, that guy, he was thirty eight years old, was found dead in his home. And you know, of course I immediately started trying to follow it up with death certificates, anything in the records

that would substantiate that, and I did. I found the guy's death certificate that the the corner just said it appeared to be Mio Cardio in Fars heart attack. But the guy was thirty eight and he just just dropped dead. Well, the thing was, I put an excerpt in there of that chapter from a letter that Scudder had written to his friend in England, who was another professor, who actually Professor Anthony Stafford Beer he split his time between the

UK and Toronto. In fact, he died in Canada back in two thousand and two anyway, And Stafford Beer was a professor of cybernetics, business management and a theorist. And he'd written a lot of letters to Stafford Beer, and they would communicate about a lot of things, and he was telling them that he scudder decided that he thinks that there was some scientific basis for tarot, that he was trying to link each aspect of it to some aspect of science. He thought that there was some sort

of correlation. And I couldn't find any more of his writings to explain what he was talking about. But he was outlining a book about this. But after the death of mister Bullard, he had just abandoned the project. And his friend said that he refused to do any more readings for people. Something about it shook him up. He didn't he didn't like something about it. Just it bothered him so deeply that I mean, but the you know that that would be where he would be in conflict

with the with Church of Satan and their beliefs. They wouldn't believe in this sort of thing. That that's why Scudder just he just embraced some of the ideas of the Church of Satan. So that's why, you know, he didn't worship devils or anything, but he did believe in, you know, studying these things. That one of his big grips he had with the scientific world was, well, how can we just outright dismiss things like the astrology or something unless we put them to the same test that

we put everything else. And we take the brains of micece and di buy them. You know, we go sift through them like breadcrumbs and find every neuron we can. But why don't we before we disprove it, why don't we go ahead and put them to the test and see if there's anything to it. They didn't dismiss it if there's nothing there, but that was sort of his you know, he wanted to see what there was. So of course, the public wasn't aware of all of the

you know, the things about all that. They just knew a little bit about the tarot or whatever things that he did. I just dived into it in more, you know, in more debts.

We haven't explained why these people, these two men are a couple, uh, doctor Scudder, as we mentioned, he's a homosexual. But tell us, just briefly how these people came to be together, and tell us why they wanted to get off the grid, to get away from their typical life that they had both lived for the most of their lives. Joey Odam being forty four, tell us what their life style really was like in the middle, middle of nowhere, in this castle like home. What were they really like?

Charles you know, started sort of seeing each other. And Charles had bought a mansion on the on the west side of Chicago, and he filled it with all these barque uh you know, air antiques and things that he had he'd picked up at auctions and places that were liquidating, and Joey just you know, he needed the place to stay. Charles was raising his four sons, uh you know, from his previous marriage, So it worked out well that Joey

just lived there. I've been inside that house. It's it's pretty huge even now, I mean, it's still magnificent that they haven't changed any of the decor from the sort of the nineteenth century, I mean, the twentieth century era. But so when after one of Scudder's sons had died, suddenly they you know, was sold. It was suicide, but I wasn't able to substantiate it. So so he at that time, Scudder was having a lot of upheaval and

his his his professional life. He was being frustrated at work, and he was approaching the age of fifty and like many of us, you know, just decided that this what's the point of doing this anymore? You know, His his sons were they were grown, they had joined the navy, and it was basically just Charles and Joey. So when one of Scudder's relatives had passed away, he left them a little bit of money, and Scudder decided to take

a big chance. He says, well, because I'm tired of paying bills, and the people in this house is ridiculous, and the crime in the neighborhood had just you know, the neighborhood had deteriorated over the years, so much so that Scudder's friends were afraid to visit anymore. So Scudder decides to just liquid eate as much as he could, except for the antiques and things that he really liked, and he bought the forty acres of Wildern in southern

Chaitoo County, Georgia. Decided He's just going to build a house and just live out there. And he wrote an article that was published in the Mother Earth News, and it's a first hand account of the you know, of basically his frustrations with work and why he decided to to do that, and about his you know, their struggles to build a chemical bathroom, and they had a kerosene powered refrigerator in the house and they lived pretty comfortably.

He put the rest of the money that he had in the bank, and back in eighty two, the interest rates were such that he could make a pretty decent amount of money off of a certificate of Debodsit he was making something like a hundred dollars a month just an interest, and they used that for a little bit of gasoline they needed, or you know, buy some sax of flower or whatever. And Scudder would make his own

wine out there. They they at first, they kept to themselves, and you know, they always had a project that they were working on, building a pond, or they built a three story structure in the back of the house. It was used as a chicken house, and uh, they but what happened was little by little people started to encroach

on them, like people hunting or whatever. They'd come across this strange house in the middle of nowhere, and they're like they had a you know, a gargoyle sitting out on the gazebo, and these stone grotesques on you know, on top of these outbuildings, and they're like, what the heck is his place, and uh, you know, and Scudder was you know, he was a good host and all that. He didn't put out any well maths that he was

just trying to keep to himself. But what happened was that first winter they were there, Joey was involved in an accident and he Joey had always been really sharp before mentally, and after this accident, his mind was impaired. He was he was slower than he used to be, and he just wasn't as sharp anymore. And a lot of Charles's friends have told me that that's basically when because Charles became lonely and he started to let people

into his life. So more and more people would come up there and they would hang out, and they started bringing fruit for them and Charles would make wine out of it, and they would trade with people they had tried to, you know, foster a sense of community. And that was what was really strange, talking to people who you know, developed Christians, and that when the cops had talked to these people, nobody had anything bad to say about Charles or Joey, and they're like, what's the deal here?

You got a couple for gay guys and to fish out of water and they got, you know, everything that would go against the Bible belt that then you got people who say nothing but good things about them, who would want to hurt them. So that was what was really strange for people. I mean for the police, they couldn't understand, like who had it in for these guys, but they would they would host you know, parties and

people would come up there. And I found pictures where there's you know, families came up there, I mean their kids are sitting at the picnic table or whatever, and Joey Odin would bake bread and by all acounts, they were pretty happy up there. But that seemed to be the lifestyle that was. I mean, of course there would be other things going on. There were adult activities going on,

you know, at night. I mean I did find where, you know, some you know, there's there's a gay community everywhere in the world, you know, even even there, and word got around it, you know, and the you know, they'd be gay people coming up there, and they would be liaisons and things like that with different people. But that wasn't really what it was all about. That's what the media made it into. But it was really no

different than you know anybody. Now, that's just you know in any big city, that's you know, there's like they got some casual bating thing going on. Because Charleston alway had their own rooms. They really weren't a couple like that, you know, they were more like just friends after all those years. Just you know, but that's that was pretty much what you know was going on. But people were fascinated.

When I found some some of the interviews that the police had done with different people, they would they would ask them and say, what did you do when he went up there? And one guy was saying, well, he goes. Mister Scudder was helping me with my reading. He was teaching me because I didn't I didn't have you know, I didn't finish school, and he was teaching me about Shakespeare and about Edgar Allen Poe. And I found a

lot of that sort of thing. People lived in trailer parks that had found their way up there, and there was no sexual thing going on. He would just rather than talk down to them, he was trying to help them, to make them, help them to understand why Shakespeare endears to this day, and you know why the same struggles that you know, the man has. It has always been there and you know, kind of complex subjects, but he tried to help him with it. But sorry, Dan, do you

feel free to jump in when I ramble? I'm sorry. Yeah.

We mentioned that there's multiple gunshot wounds, the dogs are murdered, the dogs are killed, but tell us about a couple other things, including the gag in the mouth for doctor Scudder, and what police can surmise, just briefly, what they can surmise from the information, and then what does the media, how does the media portray this before we talk about you know, the subsequent coming forward of one of the people that was there that evening.

were they were really meticulous going through it. And even on the first day they had just from the blood evidence they had, they had some eyes that that joey Odom had been shot first, and that that that Scudder had been bound and gagged and had apparently been marched into the into the study and was murdered there. And they had already identified from you know, shoe print evidence, uh,

that that they were you know, multiple suspects. They knew that there were at least three individuals, you know, impossibly

a fourth, just based on the blood evidence. And and they also you know, when they collected shell casings and things, they they discovered that there had been two weapons that had been used, and uh there you know, there was at least they knew there was a rifle that was involved because they found twenty two caliber long rifle shells and then they found a few shells that came from

what they figured was a revolver. It was a twenty two caliber short and they were putting that together pretty quickly. The Sheriff's department. By the way they and I saw the scene, they knew it was too complex for the resources they have, and that's why they called them the GBI, because the GBI came up from Atlanta with their prime

lab people and they do autopsies and everything. The medical examiner at that time, he'd done more than two thousand autopsies at that point, and so when he did the autopsies, he was because of the cold temperatures out on the mountain in December, he couldn't place exactly, you know, he didn't know who died first, really, I mean, because they died too close together and so medically you couldn't determine it. Even though they still figured that Joe Golden was shot first.

That he had estimated that the murders probably happened somewhere around December twelfth to the thirteenth. He didn't think it was before that, which, of course it had happened on December twelfth, it turned out. So let's see, So I'm not sure what would you like for me to.

of these officers that were involved. A lot of them were the Sheriff's department, people who basically took a back seat once the GBI came in, but before that officially happened, in the first early hours of this investigation, they were coming out and just making having these impromptu press conferences, and they were telling reporters it's like, oh this, you know, this is like a They kept mentioning homosexual and they'd say, oh, they're all devil worship and just all kinds of things

that had been substantiated just based on what they were seeing, like oh, well you can see these ceramic pentagram things, that's the mark of the devil. These guys were devil worshippers and that stuff. You know, it just get caught fire. CNN came to the scene they were CNN was only about two years old at the time. Cable News Network and they came up from Atlanta and they started reporting

on it. So it went worldwide. There were newspapers in Europe that were contacting the authorities wanting to know more about it. The San Francisco Chronicle was reporting on it. I mean at the time it became because this is before pre you know, this pre internet. Now everything goes you know, viral, as I say, But back then it was old fashioned media with print and television and but the but the media kept basically regurgitating this stuff and

then they would augment it. There are many accounts right now that you can find on the internet, if you know, look at copies like the should Hago Tribune and different newspapers where they're reporting that this was a fortress. There was a castle, and they're making it larger and larger and h embellishing thing. It was that the walls were three feet thick, and that there was there were there was torture equipment found. Uh, it just it got crazy.

There was a little decorative uh mace and flail you

know from the medieval times. You know that you would find in the like a dime store and a little little cheap thing people would have sitting around a decorative item, and that was reported as being an extensive arsenal of medieval weapons, and uh, they said there were whips and chains and all the things that weren't there, you know, with a you know, sexual stuff that it just got to be crazy and crazy to It got to the point where doctor Scutter's colleagues in Chicago they were just

incensed by this, and they had written a letter to the Chicago Tribune and they all signed it, a lot of these doctors, and they were just saying they it was they were just insulted by the way that a man like doctor Scott, who had was actually a serious scientist, you don't mean, no matter what he did on the time, but as far as his published papers, he completely took that very seriously in his teaching career, that they'd marginalized

him in some sort of a cartoon character. And the triviae never printed it, but I've seen the letter when you know, when I was invited to Chicago to you know, talk to some of his colleagues. But that was that's sort of like what drives it to this day. And that's one of the reasons why in the book that it became so lengthy because when I would work on this, I would constantly encounter people who were they didn't matter.

You could show them, you could have a you could have videotaped the actual murder and everything, and they will still swear up and down that it's not that way, it's this way, that it didn't happen like that. So I had to start going to the transcripts in order to you know, because of the veracity of what happened, because people keep well even now they'll resist on the internet and say they'll go on the Facebook pages and

say say, no, that's that's not true. I know somebody went up there and they did man, they used to sacrifice animals up there, and you know, there's absolutely no you know, nothing at all that backs that up now that stuff happened. You know, there's no one who can actually say that they saw it. There's always something third or fourth pound that they've heard. So the only way that I could, you know, to do that, you know, it's basically just to say, well, look, I had just

to go with the truth. Here's what would.

this idea. I've seen them go on television now and say that there was a show that just came on the Investigation Discovery Channel and they did a there's a show called Silent Witness and they just did it about a month ago, and they did it on the Corps with thing but you would never recognize recognize it from the recreation they did. They had all the facts were wrong. But there's people now say, oh, well, that was never

we never said that. We never did this. But you know, as when you're doing you know, investigative I mean, I mean as you know, I mean you are at you know, you've got to if you've got the truth, you've got to you know, you've got to back it up because you encounter so much resistance and people who just want to believe, they want to believe a myth. And I admit, you know, the myth is so much more interesting, probably

to a lot of people. You know, if you're making a Hollywood movie, sure you know, you know, just make a bunch of stuff up. But to me, the truth is so much more fascinating.

case was broken. There was a young girl, eighteen years old, Teresa Hudgens, and she came forward and she told the sheriff, Darry McConnell that she'd only speak to him and him alone that that so she was terrified, and she said that she had information about the case. And so McConnell met with Teresa Hudgens and she's she's this a little tiny girl and very you know, seft spoken, and she told them that she was there and she witnessed this. So that's what gave them the first solid break that

they had in the case. I mean, there were fingerprints found, and they'd taken those those days that's before aphis. You know, we didn't have the automated you know, fingerprint system computerized like they can use now. They had to have a suspect and you know, you had to go through you know, the old fashioned way of comparing prints and all. It

would have taken quite a while to find someone. So as they she told what happened that that on December twelfth, she had a date with this nineteen year old kid that she'd known for a long time named Joey Wells, And so she went over to Joey Wells's trailer where he lived with his mom and his family. And when she was there, there were two other people there. There was a guy named Tony West who was thirty years

old and he was a next convict. He'd just got out of prison actually a few months earlier for shooting his brother in law on the back in an argument over a poker game, and he'd been released from prison after this. And the other guy that was there was a good guy that she knew since for two or three years they used to play basketball together. Guy named

Avery Brock or Kenneth Avery Brock. He went by Avery and so the four of them were there talking, and so Tony West asked, you know, what are you guys going to do tonight? And they said, well, we were going to go riding around, just you know, on a date. But Joey's carr's not working, so we're just gonna hang out here and watch TV. So Tony West said, wells, you did not do anything, why don't you go with

us just to go riding around. So the four of them get into this nineteen seventy javelin and they start driving around to do accounting. There's nothing to do, it's cold, it's it's a Sunday night, and they scraped together enough money for one dollar's worth of gasoline and a pack of Marboro cigarettes, which costs eighty five cents back in those days. And they start driving around. So we're like, what do you guys want to do? And well, what

can we do? We have no money. So Avery Brock suggests that he goes we go up and hang out with the Devil Worshipers and Teresa Hudgins is like, devil worshipers, what are you talking about? And they're like, well, don't worri It's just these two gay men that live up here on the mountain. They're cool. They make their own wine and doesn't cost anything and sit around just talk. And so Joey Wells and his date Teresa Hudeans had never been there, so they said, sure, we got nothing.

They went up there. Well, what they didn't know was that Tony West and Avery Brock had been there on another occasion. Avery Brock had been there seven times. He knew Scudder well. And what had happened was with Avery, he was seventeen years old. And what started off as sort of like a teacher, like a mentor student kind of relationship with Scudder, it sort of the lines got blurred and brought He had some sort of sexual liaison with the doctor Scudder, and it had happened a few times.

But what happened was on the the week before, Tony West had finally gone up there with with Avery and to meet Scudder. And when Tony was there, he saw, uh, he saw Scudder and Avery have this sexual kind of vaison. One performed rule stands on the other. And after that, you know, Tony was sort of ragging on the on Avery about it, saying, you know, you know, hey, if

that's the way, you know, water affoats your boat. And Avery was humiliated because you know, he uh, he didn't want a way to find out about that, especially in the South at that time, you know, to be thought of as as gay or communists or atheists was just you know, fiped out of the question. It's the Bible belt, and you know, you don't want people to know that.

So Avery began to talk himself into the idea that he was taken advantage of by Scudder, that maybe he'd gotten a little drunk with the wine and his inhibitions were lowered. So he decided, he goes, I'm gonna I'm going to kill that SB. So Tony says, well, look, if you're going to take it that far, you might as well make it worth your while. He goes, you know, those guys have got to have money up there. Tony hadn't been in the house. This lives on happened in

the Chicken House I mentioned earlier. So Tony had never been in the house, but Avery had, so he knew that they had antiques and things that he didn't know what the value of it was. But they thought, well, they've probably got money schooled scrolled away somewhere, you know. That's what they were thinking. Because neither Scudder Odom had jobs, so they thought they were just rich. So Avery had wanted to rob them. But it wasn't supposed to happen

now night. But what happened was when they went up there in the car, the four of them were doing this substance called now here, they call it tutalu, and it's basically that it's tylu wing. It's a solvent and people sniffe it to get high.

opposed to people using them. And I think because his youngest son had also got mixed up with that that sort of thing, and he didn't he didn't hold with smoking or anything. He was really surprising. I mean that, you know, he had no problem with people drinking wine, but everything else he thought there were too many preservatives and food. He had a big you know, he'd get people a big speech about it. But since people were visiting or whatever, he's like, okay, whatever, let live. He

was whatever. But what happened was during this well, the four of them got up there and we're, uh, that is Teresa Hudgens, Joey Wells, and Tony West and every rock started thinking about he's gonna he wants to go ahead and do this robbery of a scudder. So he goes down to the car, he gets the rifle that he brought with him. He comes up there and basically he attacks the professor and Teresa and Joe Joey, the Wells,

her date. They're horrified. They start cutting up the sheet and tying up the professor, and the professor thought it was some sort of a game. He's like, hey, what kind of game do you want to play? I'll play your game. Because he you know, because he had no reason to think anyone had any animosity toward him, because he considered Avery's friend. You know, they had been intimate and he didn't know what was going on, and so, uh,

Teresa panicked and she tried to run. She went down the h how the chicken house, and Joey went with him. They went running down the road, and Tony West came after him with a rifle and forced him to come back. And uh, it just it escalated from there. Tony West and Avery Brock, they they got scuddered down to the h to the house.

the house. They were they had planned that when they were going to rob him, they were going to get a soldering iron, and they thought they could plug it in and put it in the professor's wreckt them they were going to torture him until he told where this non existent money was, and they just didn't get a chance to because they didn't know there were no electricity.

But it was just I mean, it's insane. Uh, it's in a way it reminds me of in Cold Blood, you know, with a rumor about the Clutter family having money that they didn't have, and this kind of thing happens. But it was just so they ended up shooting and killing Scudder and they were.

imagination and stained glass winds, those and things. And they said they demanded a sovereign iron, and as much in terror as you would have to be in that position. Scudder was so analytical that it took him out of that for a moment. He said, like a sovereign iron, Why would I have a sovereign iron? We don't have any electricity. Because even then he's like a scientist, He's like, well,

this is so illogical. And so he kept looking at joey Odom playing in the like in the like in the hallway, the little Foye area, and he could see him laying their motionless, and the blood was, you know, spreading from his wounds, and Scudder just this. You know, he'd been called many things in his life that he

didn't even called a coward. And he just stood up with these two thugs that were you know, younger than him and you know, uh, physically stronger, but they still had to use you know, guns and knives and things

to subdue this fifty six year old retired professor. So he just stands up defiantly and starts walking towards joey Odom, and they pushed him back down, and Tony West said sit down and I'm gonna I'm going to kill you, and Scudder stood up again and he kept walking and West threatened them beginning he said, I said, sit down, I'm gonna kill you. And Scudder through his gag he said, he said, I asked for this, and Tony West shot him in the head and he ended up shooting him,

you know, some five times before Scudder stopped breathing. He kind of just basically wouldn't die. I mean, it was uh, the medical examiner had said that you know, there was there was the torture, I mean, the amount of damage that he had sustained to his skull. Whatever. He's still but he was still able to live, like at least ten more minutes. He was still breathing, sitting on the floor before Tony West only delivered the you know, the Kudi gras and they were going to kill Teresa Hudgens.

They and she talked him out of it because she had a h she was only eighteen, but she had done a teenage bride and she from that may you know, she'd had a two year old daughter. And she tried to talk them out and said, I got a little girl at home and this and this and that, but she swore she wouldn't go to the cops and wouldn't say anything, but she was, you know, she was terrified that they would come back and get because they said

they would. You know, you know, if the police catch us right away with they won't know you told and you better play that they catch us both, because the other ones can come back and get you. And uh, you know, she just saw the callous when they slaughtered these men and their dogs, and she knew they would they would do it.

so the vehicle's missing. Now they know who they're looking for. This is We're not anywhere near the end of this story. But let's talk about what happens with these two killers and who they meet up with in Mississippi.

They went to this little rest stop, which was nothing more than a paved circle on top of a hill, very lonely, set back in the woods, and they saw an opportunity. They wanted to ditch this very distinctive looking vehicle. They didn't know if the place were looking for them or not at that point, so they saw a nineteen eighty brown Toyota sitting there and there was a man

sleeping in. It was a twenty six year old Navy lieutenant then named Kirby Phelps, and he was driving on this way from Florida, to Oklahoma to see his mother at Christmas. And they walked over and locked on the window, and when Kirby rolled down the window, you know, perhaps thinking that they were asking for directions, Aby brought those a pistol up in his face and tells him to get out. They handcuffed him. Tony West took him out

in the woods and shot and killed him. And they took both vehicles and they continued on west, and they dumped the chief in a bayou in Louisiana, and they loaded all their stuff into the Toyota and continued their journey. And that was that murder occurred near Vicksburg, Mississippi, which is pretty rich in Civil War history. But when the West and Block they on the way to uh To to Mexico, they stopped in near Waco, Texas, and they picked up a hitch hiker who said he knew his

way around Austin. So they went to Austin and the things that belonged to Kirby Phelps that they had whom they'd murdered. And when the Western brock, they went to a topless bar with the hitchhiker and they got into a brock, got into he got drunk and got into a fight with the hitchhiker, and so they got rid of the hitch hiker, told him to get lost, and that Tony West and Avery continued fighting at the bar, and West left him and took off with the car.

So Brock the next morning he sobered up, and of course neither of them had really been outside of this the area where they came from, so they didn't know what to do. And Brock especially, he was you know, he was inexperienced with the world, and he just decided, well, you know, he didn't even know if the crime had been discovered yet, so he decided to hitch hike back and he was just gonna just go back like nothing

happened until he got back to Atlanta. I called his mother and found out that the cops were looking for him, and of course he denied because I didn't do it, Mom, And then because it was Tony, it made me sick watching him kill all those people. But Bock was the one who started the whole thing and shot Pot him himself. And so Tony West continued to drift around, driving around until he you know, started running out of you know,

money and gas. He made his way back to Chattanooviu, Tennessee, and he tried to give himself up on Christmas Eve of eighty two, and the cop wouldn't take him in because they had entered his one of his alienas and alias is in the n C I C. So there was no hit on him when he was getting his real name of Samuel Tony West. So he had to he had to fight with the cop to to you

know the copt. Well, it was this Christmas Eve. People commonly give themselves up or surrender for imaginary crimes, else they can get a hot meal and get all the all the bad weather, but so they so he gave himself up, and see what happened was the media has reported that Tony West just coincidentally ran out of gas in Chaddock to Tennessee, and that's why I tried to give himself up there. But what they didn't realize was that when Tony West was fifteen, he had killed his

two year old nephew and he'd done other things. But see he just like he did with his and of course that was ruled an accident. But when he shot his brother in law over the poker game a few months earlier he'd done that in Tennessee, and Tennessee was was and he sort of is right now, sort of lenient with you know, with the criminal system, but Georgia is very punitive. It's like night and day. So Tony West thought, as he gave himself up in Chattanooga, everything

would happened in Tennessee. He'd have to do more time and that would beg end of it. So he didn't realize when he went to you know, gave himself up to Tennessee, but they took him to Georgia. He told the cops in Georgia, he just casually he told everything exactly the way it happened, and he thought, well, it'll be the same thing in Georgia. They didn't realize Georgia, but they okay, thank you very much. They're very polite, and they okay, we're gonna sentence you to the electric

chair for then his memory started getting bad. You know, he realized it's really a different ballgame in Georgia.

this is where you're at in terms of responsibility. However, he has appointed counsel a Blange or Blanger and another gentleman, and so the even though they have the confession and all that information and the eye wit and two eye witnesses, this story is not over. And it's not an open and shutcase, is it.

And at the time they didn't know what they were going to do as far as the defense, because you know, they had all these confessions west of course, given the h he'd given a confession on audio tape, which which you couldn't actually hear very well, I uncovered the recording and on Facebook, I've I've been posting a little bit of some excerpts from it because you know, people even

now were saying, oh, that Bok's wrong. He never said that, so they didn't realize I found the tape and it was in Mississippi and a you know, archive wasn't supposed to be there. But anyway, they didn't use it in trial. But they you know, because you couldn't hear you couldn't hear West as well on it. Now you could with

the technology, they could enhance it. So they went with the written confession he gave to another officer and with the you know, the confession he gave h McConnell and to the cop he tried to initially surrender to and Chad l So they had a lot, you know, they're not short on evidence. And he walks up wearing the suit from Kirby Phelps, he stole some of his clothes. He's wearing the bracelet he took off of doctor Scudder's body after he killed him. Means it's cold blooded and

he's got all this evidence. And he said, this is what I you know, have this stuff. But so the attorneys told me that basically they were looking at the Lousi compulsion, all these types of things for mental stuff to try to keep them off of death row. And but what happened was they found that the attorneys found out shortly for trial that the GBI had found in a desk's drawer at Corpse Wood, which of course was the name of the house, they found some vials that

were labeled LSD twenty five. It was delcid. It was used by It came from the Sandoz pharmaceutical company in Switzerland. So they had discovered LSD back in the thirties. They used to use it in the forties and the fifties for psychiatric use. They would use it to you know, to try to you know, fix I guess the delusions or something were wrong, the same thing that they did with electrical the convulsive stock therapy, that sort of thing. But they found these vials. But the GBI, when they

looked at it, they said, well, these are old. It was like pre banned. It was so old as before it was even the illegal United States. They were yellowed and cracked, and all one of them was intact. It was like an ampuel. You'd have to break it to get the substance out of it, so they could see that it was just something old and forgotten. And one was, you know, one bile was cracked and empty and dry and fell and was leaking and had some yellowed tape

around it. So they threw it in a bag with some other stuff that they didn't think had any evidentiary value to the case, because obviously the killers had looked through the drawers and they didn't take it, so either they didn't see it or that wasn't what they were

looking for. So but they didn't try to conceal it, but through sort of an error that they didn't they didn't log it in a lot of other things they didn't log too, but they were things like, you know, receipts and things like that, and things from the desk, you know, receipts were bills and stuff. So it was in this bag with all this stuff, and it went to the sheriff's office and it sat in it, you know, behind the guy's desk. But the prosecutor, you know, he

was he was aware, but he didn't know. They didn't know. The assistant disc attorney mentioned it to the defense attorney, says Oholl you've also got this and this, and they wait a minute, you've got LSD and you didn't tell us. Says, oh, you weren't aware of this stuff. And so they made a big deal about it and said, how we've only got something. We're going to say that professor doctor Scudder put LSD in the wine and he drugged these guys and that's why they went crazy and did this stuff.

And that's when Tony West he liked that idea, and to this day he will swear to you that that's what happened. But they invented this defense. There was actually there was no LSD in the wine, but the processus just didn't think it was going to be an issue, so they never they never had didn't have the bottles tested or anything, or had the wine tested because they thought, well, this is a silly But when it was the judge ruled that yeah, they can, defense can mention it. They tried.

They went ahead and had the crime lab analyze the bottles and they found that it was negative, but because it came too late, they couldn't say it in the trial. So to this day you still have people who say, Hi, man, you don't know that LSD that was in there, that's why. And uh they never bothered didn't test those bottles, but they did test it, but legally they couldn't disclose. But the defense, you know, of course they're dancing and say, oh, you know, tell them that the jury, why didn't they

have these tested ladies? Wasn't of course, you know, the prosecutors have to sit there and just you know, bite their fifth thing. You know, they can't say, well, we did test them. We can't tell you the results. But see Avery Brock had when he when he pleaded guilty. Uh they you know, he pleaded guilty before so there

would be no trial. And he he said there was nothing in the line and they were going to have him come back and testify in the trial, and his lawyers shut it down because he still had he was going to be extra died in Mississippi to stand trial for the murder of Kirby Phelps. So they didn't want him to damage himself on you know, because he said, they're going to use it in the next in that trial over there. So that that legend continues to this day.

In fact, I'm just I just talked to Skip Patty a couple of weeks ago and I saw him and he was telling he was reading the book and we were talking about the LSC think he said, I said, you know, Tony West, I spoke to him and to this day he still says he was drugged. And you know, Skip Patty was like, he said, you know, we just

made that up. Say I know, but I said, You've got people who still believe it to this day that he was drugged and that's why he did it rather than he just did because you know, he didn't shoot his two year old nephew and kill him because of you know, LSD, or shoot his brother law on the poker game because of you know, he just it's just the way he is. You know, it's like a psychopath.

So they are convicted. But one I think one of the most again moving parts of your book is the pathetic attempt when he takes his own stand to defend himself, to try to prevent these jurors that are looking on to try to convince these jurors not to take his life, this Tony West, and that might include that to dispense

with this LSD excuse. But tell us just a little bit about that, because I think that's again very very powerful, the kinds of questions that this prosecutor is cross examining him about these crimes, and yet he doesn't see what he needs to do here to spare his own life.

to try to elicit sympathy from the jury because he's denying responsibility. He tries to you know, like you mentioned that he's thirty and Brock was seventeen. He's trying to lay it off on him saying that, well, Avery said we had to do this, and that's so we did it so that you know, the prosecutor and say, well, you just let a kid lead you around by the nose. You're a thirty year old man. And so he's trying to deflect all responsibility from this because he's going to

embrace this whole LSD thing. And but I mean, I think it's it's particularly telling the interview that Tony West gives later on to I don't remember. I think it was a CBS affiliate in Jackson, Mississippi, where he said that he'd gone up there that night because Tony West claimed to be a Christian, and he said he'd heard about this man and he wanted to go and tell

this man about his God. And you know, all these things are completely live, you know, and so he in his mind, he's because his family is there too, and he wants his his mother and his sisters to do him in a certain light and say, well, I would never have done these things. How can I be sorry if these happened? Because this wasn't me. Doctor Stutter hypnotized me, and he did these things to me. And that's why I did it, you know. So that's that's one of the reasons he won't let go of this idea that

he's innocent. But but he's not. The only time he ever finally owned up to it was, you know, after the after the you know, he was finally offered a deal, after you know, the trials or whatever, he finally said, Okay, I did it, you know, like the closely well even said then that on one of them said, you know, I don't know why it happened, but it happened, and I did it. But it's it is it is very strange that I think that. I mean, well, I guess

if someone doesn't have a conscience, it's not strange. I mean, that's why he's not gonna he doesn't know how to the way he's trying to get sympathies to say, well, it's just not my fault. I'm a victim, and it doesn't work no matter how many times he does it, it doesn't you know, it's the same result every time. But yeah, I agree, I mean I would certainly be saying, you know, you know, I wish I hadn't done this, and I'm sorry for the victims and their families. He

didn't say any of that. He's basically sorry for himself that he's in this predicament, but he doesn't have any sorry sorry.

I kind of remember that, But they didn't. I didn't find anything with the with the where anything was conclusive. With any of the media, they just basically they I didn't see as many of the headlines that I had seen when it first happened, where it kept describing the victims as homosexual devil worshipers, and that was just you know that. I mean, of course that's what a sensational headline. Who wouldn't read that? But they the most I saw happened was that that's a slain professor, you know, or

or they you know, something like fat. But they didn't. I didn't see any articles that that really resolved that. They just basically said what what the result was as far as the plea deal or whatever, and when the convictions happened, they just thought that they were, you know, convicted on this you know, account or whatever. But it's sort of like it became sort of the part of the you know, the the myth had already been kind of like invented. And that's why you'll see to this

day if you google it. I mean, now there's tons of information, but you know, almost all of it is you know, it's not accurate. There's a Tony West's ex wife recently was was going on the internet and she was saying things about it couldn't this, couldn't be. You know, it's not like that. You know, he was drugged. He always said he was, and I was surprised for him.

Hell just took his word for it without any you know, looking at you know, any of the information that's available, and there's people who claimed to be you know, who have written books or something, but they didn't even go look at the transcripts or anything. They just they googled it. And there's a I mean, there was a couple of

thin little books that came out. One of them put you know, more effort into it, but the other the first one that came out, and they've got even the facts wrong about how many times Scudder and Odin were shot and where they were shot. And I was surprised that they can't even get that right, and that's that's easily available. But that's the way it kind of goes now.

I mean, fortunately, things are starting to turn around. There's a Facebook page now devoted to the victims and it has like forty three hundred LIFs on it, and the owner of that page has asked me to contribute a lot to it because you know, they want because the families of the victims are a part of that. And Odam's family I met them and they told me that they were really glad that I treated their uncle with you no, like the way he really was like that he was just like a you know, you know, just

like a benign, benign character. He didn't tell, you know, like he was just basically when they were kids, he would he would cheat at checkers, he would steal their checkers and things like that, and just you know that he's been made out to become kind of a monster. I mean, the sheriff at the time was quoted was telling the immedia sticked up by ap so I was reported everyone. He said that Joey Odin was the Scutter's lackey,

his boy. He was like his servant. And I mean you have to, you know, think when you're you're writing something like this, and it's like there are living people who are around who knew those people loved them, and you have to think, well, you know, you owe everything to the truth, you know, to tell it the way that it was. And you know, I mean got family members who they read out their relatives saying that they sacrificed animals and they tortured animals and did all these

horrible things that you know that they never did. And you know, I mean it's just a but yeah. But yeah, as far as the media, I haven't anything. Now, there was one the newspaper that most widely covered it in that County. It's the summer Ole News, and I had told when I would do my research, I put to their archives and I told them there were some things that weren't reported accurately back in the day. They had some facts wrong, and the publisher was very interested in that.

They said, you know, we went with the best infation we had. The Thomas said, why, I realized that, but I found these things that are you know, do in the records, and you know, they were actually very receptive. They said, well, we may do a retrospective on this case, and if so, you know, would you mind contributing, because

we're going to make sure that we get everything right. Well, we'll correct anything that wasn't accurate, even though it's you know, thirty something years later that they're interested in that, which I thought, you know, I have to give them a

lot of respect. That's incredible to Some of it was just small stuff that it's reported even now incorrectly, like saying that Tony West's father was killed in a train accident and in Indiana, when in fact he's died in a car crash in Towards It's a lot of things that were you know, it's not right, but still you know, I mean, if you're doing you know, what's the point of doing in kind of investigative journalism if you're just

going to make up the facts. I mean, there's too much work to go through archives, you know, boxes of old files, and you know, it's just you know, it's.

But of course he finds romance in prison and a supporter of woman ready to marry him if there were the bility to be married in prison in Georgia, so incredible details of the As you mentioned, the trial does not end right away. This stretches out for as you say, six years before the resolution of this case for these two killers, and there was safety locked behind bars forever. Tell us what the conclusion is for these is it

life without parole? For both of them in the end, what is their end sentence.

would think, okay, that's the end of it. Well that we're coming up on thirty six years right now, which would be the maximum time basically that they could be kept behind bars even though they did these you know, heinous crimes. Well, in Mississippi it was different there. They

had a sentence of life like real life. And the agreements that the killers finally made with Mississippi was that that after the completion of their sentences in Georgia, they would go to Mississippi and they would have to you know,

finish the rest of their sentences there. But when I was in Mississippi during the research, I met with the district attorney after Rickie Smith, and he was remembering the case of the prosecutor had passed away just a couple of years earlier, and he was a friend of the current district attorney, and he got interested in that, and I said, well, you know, my concern is that it was done so long ago, back in the eighties, that they didn't use computers very wisely the moment at that time.

So I said, I'm afraid that it might have fallen between the cracks, and they don't have it set up. And so he became curious. He said, well, what was the style of the case, and I said it was a state versus West. He looked it up and sure enough, they didn't have a detainer in there. It wasn't there's no attach now. So basically if they had been released, they could have walked out of prison. I mean, they

might have been discovered later. But you know, you've got unremorseful you know, multiple murderers, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, you know, they could still do things and there's you know, Brock told me that they get they get contraband cell phones in prison. So he does look up stuff about Cortswood and he sees that. I mean, so the district attorney, you know, he went in the computer and went in the system. He linked it together

and then he said, okay done. He said, I can promise you now, he said, if they ever get out of prison in georget they're going to die here in Mississippi. But I mean, I was surprised that it wasn't linked up, but it just occouraged to me. I think, wonder if they ever set that up. So now at least they you know, they'll be sent there they ever get out. But it's coming up in thirty six years, so he got to maximum time. They can stay behind bars in Georgia.

Of course, both of them had multiple medical problems, and I don't know why they would want to get out. I mean, West has outlived all his family members. They're all dead except for I mean, his sisters and his mother. They'll have restiratory problems. And Tony West used to be a chain smoker, but of course smoking this band in Georgia prisons, and he spends all this time in the

medical prison. That's the irony of it. He's been kept alive by the same taxpayers that sought to execute them years ago, and he's outlived everyone because he gets you know, medical you better medical care than I would, you know, and every Brock has gotten multiple medical problems as well, and the decuriorating discs in his neck and spine, and a lot of people say that's karma, but I mean, I have you know, I'm not without you know, not

without compassion. I mean, yeah, they did these things, but you know, I mean I would just at least like for them to have some remorse, you know what they did anyway, But.

talking about Facebook pages and websites. Tell us about your website and a Facebook page for the book, how they might contact you or find a lot more information about this.