CHARLES MANSON NOW-Marlin Marynick

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its death penalty and Manson's triald. Lead prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, spun the story of a demonic cult leader who hypnotized people to commit murder. He published his theory in Helter Skelter, the best selling true crime book of all time. When author Marlin Merrinick was eight years old. He discovered a beat up copy of Helter Skelter. The book's portrayal of Charles Manson was an icon of unbridled evil haunted as an icon of unbridled evil haunted Merinick for years, well

into his career as a psychiatric nurse. So when a chance conversation with a man selling Manson memorabilia on the Internet facilitated a connection to Manson himself, Marinick went along for the ride. This Happenstance's journey introduced Merinick to Manson's closest confidants, eager to share Manson's story, his talent, his passion, and his philosophy. The adventure chriscended through Marynick's phoned conversations with Manson and ultimately culminated when the two met behind

the tightly locked doors of California's Corkoran State Prison. Charles Manson Now is a critical dissection of what happened forty one years ago when the Manson family dominated and stormed the Polank Yesterday and murdered five people, among them one

of America's most beautiful beloved actresses, Sharon Tate. This book is also a clause of Manson's own writing a poetic, ironic, and disturbing account of his universe, from his childhood to his time in the eight x twenty eight x twelve prison cell where he is contemned to stay for the rest of his life. With my special guest Marlin Marrinick with his book Charles Manson. Now, welcome to the program, and thank you to agreeing to this interview. Marlin Merrinick,

thanks a lot, Dan, happy to be here. Thank you very much. Now, I guess what everybody might ask after they listened to this is how on earth did you come to getting correspondence with Marlin with Charles Manson? And why?

they call it fishing. They'll try to get outside contacts and try to get stuff like stamps or money, you know, whatever kind of relationships they can form. And so through this Kenny Callahan guy, I started a relationship with him, and he told me that, you know, once Charlie got out of the hole, he would have Charlie phone me. And I didn't think this was real. Of course I saw, well,

you know, whatever kind of thing. And at the time Charles Manson was in the hole, he had fashioned a knife out of an armbrace that that one of the other inmates had had. And you know, having a I guess it would be called a prison shank or whatever. So having a weapon like that is a very serious offense. And he was thrown in the hole for a year and when he got out he called.

philosophy and his way of thinking. And and because I was in Canada, he thought that maybe there was a way that I could bring in a camera crew and we could do this final address. He had this idea of doing a one final interview, and he wanted to make it a statement. So his vision of this was to dress up like a general and command all the armies in the world to stop fighting each other and

start fighting pollution. And so that was kind of what, you know, kind of bonded us in a way and kind of helped form the relationship with his focus on trying to get this interview to happen.

us even back. I thought it was very fascinating. You described the when you first saw the book Held Skeleton, and obviously that would be your first exposure to the story and what you got from it, what your impressions were, and give us that whole scenario where you where were you, Where were the circumstances that you came upon this classic true crime book and first encountered the personality of Charles mans and at least through this perspective.

those when I was a kid. We used to rummage around in those kind of places and stuff, and I remember the imagery and you know, the blood writing on the walls, and I remember his eyes and that intense look, and it was I would have been about like, you know, eight years old or so, and the whole thing was like very horrific. The guy gave me nightmares, So you know, he was a kind of a monster from my childhood. That that's kind of my releast remembrance of him.

kind of forbidden and maybe taboo in a way. And I don't even like back then, I don't remember hearing the term like serial killers or having any you know, there was an know reference other than other than that book. And oddly enough, all of that kind of experience transpired into a career in psychiatry, and that's what I've been doing for the last fifteen years. And so to me, I was more interested in the psychological kind of aspect

of Manson than anything else that was fascinating. And I think that was ingrained very early, you know, from my childhood. And then every once in a while, you know, growing up, you see glimpses of them on TV doing different interviews. I remember seeing the Heraldo thing and the different Parole hearings, you know, where you see that where he's like acting out or whatever, that kind of stuff, And so it's always it's kind of progressed, and he's always kind of

been in the background. It's always kind of been there.

What we're alluding to for those people that don't really know, is if you could explain what we're really alluding to, and if there is any controversy about Charles Manson's certainly not that he was, you know, powerful charismatic. He affected everything. From that point on, it became a true crime classic because it did attract people. The story was profound, Sharon Tate, Roman Polonski, Hollywood, hippies, drugs, sex, so it had all those elements, and it had distorted because they didn't get

the facts right away. Of course, rumor and gossip and everything went intal. So tell us really in your minds before we get too far for our audience, what in your mind is controversial about Bulagosi, the author, but also the prosecutor of Charles Manson in terms of what Manson is believed to have done and what you think he Okay, just explained.

a whole lot of sense to me. And there's been similar kind of things that remember, like in the eighties when you know, bands like I remember Judas Priest had to go to trial because one of you know, one of their fans had completed suicide and it was you know, this music's doing that, and somehow if you played something

backwards it said something. And I think Ozzy Osbourne went through a similar kind of a thing, and so it was this whole thing about secret messages and what things really mean and who's controlling what, and you know that

that's kind of been a fascinating thing for me. And so that was, you know, when I kind of got immersed in this and decided to write a book, and when all that was kind of coming together and I did researcher around that, that was one of the issues I had to go into, was you know, could this, you know, really happen kind of thing?

of in the helter skelter version of things. So you got a guy who has been in jail the majority of his life.

Creepy Krpus taught him how to play guitar from the Maul Barker Gang, which I think is another Canadian connection, and so he you know, he really thought he had something and he could do this music thing, and so he got out and he ended up being associated with the Beach Boys and writing a couple of songs with them. He was friend with Neil Young. He told that Neil Young gave a motorcycle once Frank Zappa Jim Morris, and he said Jim was a good kid. He's trying to

do his own thing, the Birds. It's like all of those people. He was, you know, one of those kind of musicians. And then all of a sudden things start falling apart, and you have a guy who's getting messages from the Beatles record you know, the Beatles. He's believes he's Jesus Christ. He thinks there's a race war uppending race war happening. He he's paranoid. He goes and hides out in the desert. You know, he starts digging all to the center of the earth or whatever like that.

That sounds like some serious mental health problems. You know, it doesn't doesn't add up. And then you look at

the like these people are all petty thieves. It's the family or whatever, right, and and so they're stealing these cars and stripping them down and making doing buggies and doing credit card fraud and breaking into houses and you know, all this kind of stuff, and they're just they're they're doing like Charlie told me, they they're when they're at the they were doing all these robberies, and they'd a lot of the he liked. He likes flying ars and

paintings and stuff like this. So they have they'd be living in these shacks that should be condemned, and they'd have like, you know, two hundred thousand dollars worth of art hanging on the walls, or he'd he stole a bunch of I want to say, Angela Lansbury. But I might be wrong, but I think that's who it was. They broke into some Hollywood actress and stole a bunch of fur coats and glued him onto a dune buggy, so it looked like a living animal, you know, and

he'd drive this thing around. And so he recalls those kind of days and events, you know, pretty clearly, because that you know, that was the last time he was out. But I think there's so much chaos and so much disorder, and everyone was so messed up. And I really, I honestly believe if you were to question every one of them, you get I don't think anybody really knows what happened, you know, I And I think that's part of the fascination of the whole story.

this again. He spent most of his life in prison, so he's a pretty good scapegoat, but you portray him as something.

give him the freedom to make some comments. But I think for people who are listening to this, it is sort of if I'm not correct, maybe it is sort of a version of Eastern philosophy in a lot of ways. Lots of stuff that we're talking about. Now, how did you you you did eventually get around to visiting Charles Manson, So tell us a little bit how the circumstances that you had to go through to be able to do that.

to happen. And I was directed to contact the ord and in writing, and once I did that, all of a sudden, you know, everything kind of turned around, and then I was approved. And even going in to meet him, I was told that, you know, don't get your hopes up kind of thing. He often doesn't go to the visiting room. And I had known that he hadn't seen anybody in over a year at that point. He wasn't, you know, and.

And when I was directed into the visiting room, he was already there and he was setting up a table and he had a chess table set out, chess board, and I don't know how to play chess at.

how you like in California kind of thing. And once we're kind of calmed down, and and you know, I was sitting, he stood up and he put the chair behind him, and then he started screaming as loud as he could, and he started he's doing this whole thing around a bank robbery. And she's like, I said, don't, I'll kill you, you know. And as soon as he started, there were there's two guards in the center of the room and it's like like a kiosk kind of thing,

and they were like totally ready to come over. And so I'm watching these guards and kind of watching what he's doing, and I'm thinking, this is going to be the shortest visit ever. And he has a way of pushing things as far as he can, and he knows how to kind of back off when he needs to.

And so once that whole scene plays out, he kind of, you know, gathers himself and catches his breath and sits down and he's kind of laughing to himself, and I'm like, like, what the hell was that, you know kind of thing. And so he told me that was level level seven And when asked, what, you know, what's that mean? You know, what does that mean? And he said, that's his experience

of living in constant fear but overriding it. And so he described it like if you were about to be in a car accident or something like that, how everything slows down and everything kind of falls into place and everything happens in the right way, you know, And he said, you know, that's kind of how he lives. He's always on edge, he's always has to be alert. He you know, and so he's always tried to explain his experience to me, and I think that kind of comes from in the book too.

at least fifty a week kind of thing. You know, there's he got thousands of letters and there's a lot of stuff that and a lot of people that you know, Charlie's lost touch with and people he wants. You know, there's all kinds of so they take care of that end of things, you know, just kind of trying to help out and correspond and try to get his word out kind of thing, you know, ram his environmental stance, and basically to meet with Charlie, you kind of got

to go through Gray Wolf. And I don't want it to sound like it's a it's a process or anything, but but I mean they he kind of watches out for Charlie on that level too, right, to make sure sure, you know, because because like you mentioned early earlier, a lot of people who want to kill him to you know.

in a prison. He's gone through it, you know, and so that that's why he's in't a protective housing in it right now?

and what he had to say about Polanski itself. Some people might be outraged at that, and I obviously, you know, everyone uses controversy a little bit to say, okay, here's here's a chapter about Polanski. What's he got to say? You know, Sharon Table's murder about what we got to say? So tell our audience what what is included in the Polanski chapter? And what does Charles Manson have to say about Polanski himself.

I mean, I think the guy, you know, he was away trying to work and he lost his wife, and the whole thing is completely horrific. And at the time, Sharon was like a totally rising star and she was eight months pregnant and you know, totally beautiful. And you know, Jay Sebring was kind of like leaves a hairdresser to the stars. His clientele was like absolutely everybody, you know. And so when that that whole thing happened, it affected

Hollywood on such a heavy level, you know. And I guess some of the things that I found out and that I talked about was that there's there's been these rumors and a lot of talks about these secret films and porn films that Polanski was involved with, and they involved like different celebrities and acts like you know, like basically almost child pornography and besteality and all this kind

of stuff. Really weird, kind of kind of things. The weirdest thing about the whole environment was that all of these people knew each other. And Charlie told me that he was friends with Sharon, tateknew you know, he knew Jayson, he knew everybody said that was his neighborhood. He knew all of those people. And to try and put everything together, I met a guy named John ace Neil who is kind of the authority on Charles Manson. He owns every you know piece of video footage, every you know photo.

He's got these completely insane archives and he's been following this story since like nineteen sixty nine. And so the basically Tex Watson was a hairdresser up that he did. That's what Jay se Bring did. Tex used to have like a whig store, and so they were they were acquaintances, they knew each other, they were friends.

adds up and this kind of makes sense. Is a different theory, or at least something that to kind of look into. Was j se Bring was and voy Tech were basically trying to corner this whole MDA market. It was a new drug at the time, and nobody really had control over it, and so they're involved in some really big deal. And Tex Watson was a drug dealer. He has a history actually of ripping off a lot of people, a lot of bad deals. No one really trusted him. He's like basically a junkie. No one wanted

him around. So apparently he shows up at the Tatehouse and he says, you know, you know, I went in on this. You know, just sounds like a good thing kind of thing, and they don't know how to deal with them. So boy Tech says, you know, we'll come back in an hour and we'll you know, we'll figure this out kind of thing. So Tex drives around for

an hour. He comes back and he's like, Okay, I'm back kind of thing, and they decided that they can't have anything to do with them, like boy Tech and Sebring said, you know, this guy's trouble, and so they tell him to get the hell out of here. You know, we don't want them to do with you, man, We'll call the police. And so Tex is offended by this.

He drives out to the ranch. Apparently he waits for Charlie and because he's not around, and so Charlie shows up and and Tex says, you know what they you know, they're ripping me off here. I'm supposed to be on this deal. You know what am I supposed to do? And you know, Charlie may have said something like do what you need to do or shut up or move on, you know what. I don't know what what advice was given, but that's apparently where this command and this control, you know,

all all of it. That that's kind of the event where you know, it's it's up to opinion almost what happens after that, right, But but it sounds like more like a home invasion kind of thing, you know, like that. I guess that's a big call. It today is a bought drug deal.

that sit down thing like what really happened kind of thing. So, and anything that he said that that he talked about the murders or whatever, I've I've put into the book. So it's kind of yeah.

because he wanted to create a race war. It sounds like like how you described in the beginning, at least that there's a certain amount of question of well, no matter what he wanted to do, how mentally.

an interesting concept, you know. For again, like you said, one of the you know fifty you know, The attention that he gets in prison to this day is incredible, and that's why the book is so popular. That's why Charles Matt's mansion is such an enigmatic personality. So yeah, now the thing is, uh, how how did your friendship evolve? And to the point where would you you've got his blessing from this book? I I would trust. How did it when you didn't originally intend to write a book?

So when the idea came that you would like to write a book, how did you broach that subject with him? How did that conversation go down? What did he have to say any to give you his blessing?

to happen or whatever. But when I met with him, I told him, like, I don't think this is ever going to happen. Like this is kind of what we're up against. There's this law, you know, even though I'm from Canada, and he's insistent that they can't keep the world press out, you know kind of thing. But and so when I started talking to him about doing a book, initially his response was, you know, you know, that's no you know, that's total bullshit. I want nothing to do

with that kind of thing. And then it turned around to if you write about yourself and your journey, you know, write about it from you, then I'm okay with that. And then he said if I was using his words, he just said, don't, you know, don't that's with them at all, Just you know, keep them the way they are and don't interpret them, don't try to figure them out. Just put it, you know, put out the way it is kind of thing. And so I tried to stay true to that, and because of that, he's trying to

read through the book right now. Actually he just got a copye a couple of weeks ago, and it takes them a long time to read. And he just said, he said he knows that what I had to work with, and he's basically that I did the best I can and he's totally cool with everything.

And you're you're revictimizing the victims, and so I'm sure you've got some criticism, but tell us if any criticism came your way because you decided to write this book and correspond with Charles Medison.

I'm not really into true crime. I don't, you know, like violence, I don't, you know, I don't I don't really subscribe to any of that. And so to me, our relationship is almost it's almost like a like a therapist client kind of relationship or something. It's it's and it's on his terms, right he can you know, phone, or he can fall you know, or he won't or whatever. So it's, you know, he could you know, last night could have been the last time I ever heard from him.

You know, you never know what this guy like. He's kind of things kind of go in completely the opposite direction. Like with money, he's allowed four packages a year, and I think the value is like five hundred dollars on a package, and so that would be stuff like vitamins and coffee and you know, just whatever, maybe a couple

of CDs, that kind of stuff. And you're only allowed to have a certain amount of money in your bank account, so he doesn't really care about you know, money like that kind of stuff, and so it from his end, there's no financial gain, and from me giving him nothing, there's no you know, none of that's happening. And I have to sell like a lot of a lot of money to break are a lot of books to break even,

you know what I put into this project. So it wasn't it wasn't about that, And I actually this might be naive, maybe, but I wanted to have a platform to speak about mental health and those concerns and about prisons and you know that that environment that people live in and and to me, I wouldn't say it's abusive, and a lot of people will probably you know, think Charlie's where he is and he agrees to get what

he gets. And I'm sure if these crimes never happened, I shouldn't say I'm sure, But you know, you're dealing with a guy who's basically been out of jail four times in his life, and he keeps going back for

various crimes. Right, I mean, he probably would have landed himself in there some way, But I mean those conditions are pretty harsh, and there's so much mental illness and in prisons, and I've worked in jails too, so I thought that that was kind of why why I did the book is because I was caught up in something that was kind of overwhelming and there's a crazy story and it just kind of it kind of wrote itself. It was yeah, you know.

I'm not ready. He can't handle it, you know, just to illustrate how dysfunctional he was and how institutionalized he was and how fragile he was, which lends credence to your argument that he got out and he had a little bit of philosophy here and a little bit of scientology there, but he've been institutionalized and then all of a sudden he encountered this wonderful, you know, time where he could philosophize and people would follow him and listen

to him. And meanwhile he was just trying to get a record deal and get by, you know, and so certainly not what he was portrayed as. So he's you know, so when he talks, he also talks about how the prison raised him, you know, and now he didn't know any different, and he didn't know any other environment. And also psychologically, it's pretty evident it's lots of the stuff he says is somewhat scattered and tangential, but at the same time there's these glimmers of it's more than lucid.

Obviously a profoundness, I guess from somebody that's sitting in this place for his whole life and talking about that perspective, how he deals with it, and how he gets by and how he has to look at things to survive, you know. So it's I think you've done a good job in pointing that out. I don't know, again, like you say, there's a couple more books in sort of analyzing everything you've learned from it. For sure.

And I think we live in an age where if you lose your internet for a day, or you lose your health home, you go mad, you know, And I cannot imagine or believe how like, how the hell you and you know, And that's the kind of stuff I'm interested in it's like like if you're and you're throwing in a cell, complete solitary, you know, like what do you do? And he showed me like during a during

a visit, he's like he taps all the time. He's kind of restless and fidgety, and and he's got an incredible sense of rhythm and percussion, right, and and so I asked him, like, how the hell do you learn that? He said, when he was in the hole in San Quentin. All he had was a sink in a he had a combination sink toilet thing and he would play them

like bongos, you know. And he's showing me how he would do this, and then he would pick up different rhythms and he kind of go into a trance and almost like a meditation, and he would do this, you know. And he was telling me like, when you're living like that, if an ant crawls across the floor, that's a whole other world because now you have something to relate to. And so you you watch this ant and you can see how it could, you know what it can do, and so it's a it's a whole. The guy's a whole,

you know. So there's that that whole side of things, and then you have a side where he can be extremely perverse and vile, and you know, just like holy shit, this kid, you know, like completely out of control and ranting. And I think a lot of the phone calls, you know, are a lot of it, the way he events and deals with you know, that environment kind of thing. So and he doesn't understand the whole theme thing right, like like he just wants to be left alone. That's kind

of what he tells me. But I mean he lets me in his world and I write a book, you know. So it's like there's so much of this kind of stuff. It's it's got to be I think it's overwhelming.

stuff on YouTube or something, and I can't remember. There's one interview and I could tell that. You know, it was just the start, and you know, he was kind of dancing around and you know, doing all of this stuff, and it was like, man, like, you pull him out of solitary confinement or whatever environment he's in he's and that those at that time, he was in full out restraints, you know, to you know, to do interviews or anything to have any contact. It was between blast kind of thing.

And so all of a sudden, you have a production crew in there, you have you know, all these extra guards and people who want to see this interview happen, and like, that's got to be overwhelming for anybody, you know, like to to be thrown into that. And so it's almost like falling into character or something or whatever role and to it's a different I can see a shift there where he has to, you know, try and deal with that, and that's kind of the image that everyone sees.

And to me, I say, Guy's completely uncomfortable with what he's trying to do. You know, That's that's my take on that.

a different perspective as well. Like you say, for all those years, it's it's every single relationship he had to wonder whether it was people were using him, We're going to write a book, or what perspective they were going to. But people wanted a piece of them, and that was it. You know, people follow them, people want a piece of them.

But so you're saying that he basically you understand that he performed at that time and he certainly really doesn't want to do that now for the for the cameras and for the media.

talks about madness and and that kind of stuff. And when you get into like his the way he deals with things, and and to me, I, I, you know, I do see him as a survivor, and he does try to express and explain himself. It's a whole other thing. You know. It's a totally different person, you know. And and I could even see that shift like in early phone calls, until when I got to know him. It's there's kind of there's kind of a point where he kind of opens up and he's more honest and truthful

about you know, about things. So I don't think he's like that more candid. I guess that would be the.

into it. So we'll tell us a little bit about that discovery.

in the book, Stanton Levey. And Matthew is a musician in la and his story is pretty unbelievable, and he's adopted and when he searched out his birth mother, he got information that said she was a part of, you know, the Manson family or a part of those happenings, orgies and whatever kind of madness was going on at the time, and she believed that Charles Manson was, you know, Matthew's father.

And there is a striking the resemblance. There's a whole lot of stuff that there's some mannerisms and stuff that Matthew has that are really really weird. And when I first met him, I didn't think I kind of seen a little bit of a resemblance, but you know, it was, you know, kind of okay, I can see it. But when I met Charlie then I really saw how Matthew

remembered him, like resembled him kind of thing. And so what happened with Matthew was he was trying to figure out if Charlie was his dad, and he was proceeding, you know, trying to go through all the channels to do the DNA thing, and he's trying to you know, have this relationship with with Charles Manson, and he found the whole thing frustrating and he was in a bar in LA and a little drunk and he ended up talking to somebody and giving an interview, and that interview

ended up getting picked up by the Globe, I believe, and it got like two hundred million hits over Thanksgiving weekend a couple of years ago. So once he went public basically, which is what happened, and you know, things have been pretty strained with him and Charlie.

that kind of stuff happens all the time. And then you get all these there's a there's it's amazing, Like from even from my perspective, I get a lot of people who want me to try and get them in to meet with Charlie or try to forward a message, or a lot of authors. I'll get messages from saying, can you find out who whatever reformed school? Who is the you know, the dean over there? You know, who is the whatever? Who's the grade three teacher? What is

the significance of this song? You know, it's just like bizarre what people are interesting?

you know, children being ripped out of the womb. The but you did have a real encounter with Satanists and that was Levey, So tell us about that and why that was important. And again for you know, I think some people, I don't think they'll buy your book and be critical, but I think people that wouldn't bother to read your book might be critical. When you have these you're contacting people that are selling mensin memorabilia. That would

outrage certain people. To explain that, but again that comes from the book. You can explain yourself. Well, but tell us a little bit about this. The satanism connection in this.

top models in the world. He had such an amazing look and she was perfect for her band, and we contacted her to see if she could do her album cover and and she was gonna do it, and everything was really cool, and we got invited to their wedding, and they got married on June sixth, sixth, and it was like a big event. They had like like Alkaline Trio played, I believe Hank three played Danzig. There were a couple of bigger metal bands, and uh, it was like a you know, a pretty big thing. And and

Stanton used to be roommates with Marilyn Manson. He had a store in Hollywood, so he's kind of a scenester her. He knows all of those people. That's kind of kind of where he's from kind of thing.

in the Luciferian order. It's he has a huge part in Satanism and his kind of a key central figure and bringing about the end of the world, like and he totally believes this, like this is completely his truth. And the way he laid out his story. I wanted to use the exact transcripts from beginning to end, but you kind of got to, you know, make it a book. Otherwise it's just transcripts, I guess.

And then, like you say, the recent rape charges that surfaced again and in his extradition extradition hearings and and like you say, the French sort of protecting him and saying no, no, no, and the Americans wanting him and want him to go to trial for this basically assaulting you know, a minor basically in the US. So it's interesting how all these things get mixed up. The legitimate Hollywood, but there's Satanism there and then you're you're in contact with

people and then everybody's an environmentalist. So it's it's very fascinating, that's for sure.

a totally different for perspective. Now, you had spoken earlier about how you use a different term too, that your mother completed suicide when you were young, and you didn't have a couple friends that succumbed to cancer as well, so you had your fair share of trauma. You did gravitate towards the psychiatric industry because your interest and also obviously your compassion, because you that's what you do, and you have to be compassionate and understanding these kind of people.

How did this, How did this, if at all, how did this help you speak reaching out to Charles Manson and going through this whole journey, How on earth could this have helped you.

by I. I went to Europe. You know, you go to Europe to find yourself, a lot of people say, and I ended up hanging out with all these data teachers, which is like, it's not really a belief system. It'd be like an ultimate for loss if he kind of like presence or oneness or you know, you know, the whole now thing. You know that that kind of approach to life, and these guys are intense.

guy kind of thing. You know, I couldn't compare to that, and you know, he would never I don't think teacher is the right word, but it's kind of humbling, and I think this whole experience, like, okay, And when I met with Charlie, one of the first questions I had to ask him was like, you know, he caught me staring at the swastika on his head and it's like, okay, you know, what's that about kind of thing, and he said that, you know, he picked that up because it

was the most hated symbol in the world, and at the time, he's the most hated guy and he was looking at death role when he's getting spit on every day and people wanted to fight him, and you know, he just wanted to give up on life kind of thing. And so he I identified with with the swastika. And then once he started learning with that symbol, mant you know it's it's you know, and I know in Cree it's the spinning wheel and Japan, I believe it's number

five hundred or whatever. And like every culture has esoterically used that symbol for something, but what Germany did with it is, you know, made it what it's remembered for kind of thing. And so sure, you know, I've always had this idea of doing this book, and I wanted to do it around depression, and I wanted to do it, you know, to I was journaling my experience and everything, and all of a sudden, I put my name on the same cover as Charles Manson, like probably career suicide,

you know. And then then when you do you do something like this, writing's kind of a solitary thing. And so that wasn't really that big of a thing, you know. And when the book was getting ready to come out, like a lot of my colleagues and co workers, they you know, very few of them knew about my association with Charles Manson. All none of them knew about my childhood and you know, my upbringing. You know, I come

out of a dysfunctional home or whatever. And so throwing all of that out and I had to talk to family members, and you know, I had to let my you know, my employer know that, Okay, this is what I'm doing. You know, I got this book coming out. It's going to get a lot of attention, you know, and and and I'm kind of extremely, uh, I guess,

grateful that people understand the message. And it's really hard to talk about when people don't read the book, because basically they try to make you they say, oh, you're you know, you're friends with Charles Manson, and they try to make you into this you know, monster and and direct anger and hostility awards that. But that was never my intent was to to do anything hurtful to anybody or anything. I don't know, it's rambling here, but that that's kind of no kind of how it all came about.

It's just uncertain what it is. But I think that you've had some people that the message and I think that's they took the time.

earth could you do this? Well, you know what, he defends himself admirably, you know, I mean, and if you thought, well can a guy defend himself, I'd be the first guy, even though I'm open minded to say well I like to hear this one. Well, yeah, but your book you do a good job of doing that, and I'm not going to say that. And you don't say either, hey, Charles Manson is a hero or he's wrongfully convicted. But you know, let's just look at the person. And I

think you've done a great dissection. Up here's the guy. Here's how he lives. Here's some of his philosophies. Here's how survives. Here's what I got out of it. And you really don't indict anybody else's perspective on this, but you just again do a great, incredible job of articulating what might have happened amid all the hysteria now that we look at it forty years later, you know. So you've done a great job, you know, And so I think in terms of you had the right instincts. That's

why you've got a great product. Nobody gets basically published unless people believe in what you're doing, So you know, I mean, there's always going to be people that criticize, but obviously those are the people that don't even bother to read the book. So you can't pay too much attention to those people, can you. No.

that that is way more than I ever expected. And to me, like, I know, I know how the world sees Charles Manson, but he's to me, he's like a guy I would meet at Salvation Army or a transient guy you know, i'd meet at a shelter or downtown or in jail or whatever. Like I I kind of relate to him on that level, you know, But I do know, Yeah, how I guess famous is the word you could use. And I do know how big his influence is. And I do know how people interpret everything

the guy does. And it's that that's more fascinating than the character than Charles Manson, you know, it's what happens around him. It's unbelievable.

And you know, I'm not saying that you bring them home or anything, but in terms of the humanity of everybody, and and Jail does a great job of putting people in a completely different light when you talk to him. It's I think that you may have even found it incredible that, like you say that this guy was even accused of this stuff.

he can't be stupid. I mean, there's no way there has to be. There's a definite total will to I don't know anybody who's got a you know more of a will to survive than that guy and to do it, you know, in those conditions and stuff that it's pretty amazing, pretty remarkable.

but not much. You know, it's interesting to hear how complex this story really is, and you go into some other aspects of of other unsolved murders as well too that were on the Spawn Ranch, and so I'll let people read that for themselves. It's a fascinating I mean, it's just his legacy lives on. It's incredible, you know, incredible data. Anyway, I wanted to also put a little plug in for your band as well. I know that you're a serious musician, So what is the what is the name of your band?