CHAOS-Tom O'Neill

cross the nation, Spelling the end of the sixties. Manson became one of history's most infamous criminals, his name forever attached to an era when Charlatan's mixed with prodigies, free love was as possible as brainwashing, and utopia or dystopia was just an acid trip away. Twenty years ago, when journalist Tom O'Neill was reporting a magazine piece about the murders.

He worried there was nothing new to say. Then he unearthed shocking evidence of a cover up behind the official story, including police carelessness, legal misconduct, and potential surveillance by intelligence agents. When a tense interview with Vincent Bulogosi, prosecutor of the Manson family and author of Helter Skelter, turned a friendly source into a nemesis, O'Neill knew he was on to something,

but every discovery brought more questions. O'Neill's quest for the truth led him from reclusive celebrities to seasoned spies, from San Francisco's Summer of Love to the shadowy sights of the CIA's mind control experiments, on a trail rife with

shady cover ups and suspicious coincidences. The product of two decades of reporting, hundreds of new interviews, and dozens have never before seen documents from the LAPD, the FBI, and the CIA, chaos mounts an argument that could be, according to Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Stephen k strong enough to overturn the verdicts on the Manson murders. This is a book that overturns our understanding of a pivotal time

in American history. The book they were featuring this evening is Chaos Charles manson the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties, with my special guest, journalist and author Tom O'Neill. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for a Greenness interview. Tom O'Neill.

I didn't know it was going to take quite as long as it did. And I'm pretty sure had I known then what I knew now, I probably probably would have said no, I still don't know what that was worth twenty years of my life. M hmm.

whole lot differently. But at the time I read it, you know, without knowing anything really about the case, I just kind of fell hook one and sinker into the narrative he presented and believed everything he told me, and it was a pretty compelling lead.

and the other victims. And then separately, on my own, I started trying to find people who were you know, non celebrities, but who had become important witnesses in the trial. And at this point I still didn't suspect that anything untoward had happened in the trial. And I also got a phone number for Vince BULIOSI had an interview set up with him, and he was one of the first

people I interviewed. I went to his home in Pasadena and spent about six hours in one day just talking with him, going out to lunch, getting a tour of some of the locations associated with the crimes, and you know, walking away pretty impressed because he had given me so much time. But as I write in the book, by the end of the interview, I realized, even though he was so generous with his time and with his stories, I realized he wasn't giving me anything at all new.

He's just saying the same thing that he'd send another interviewers in the book. So I did what we call the hill Mary path. At the end of the interview, I asked him if there was anything he could tell me that he'd never shared before, something unknown about the case that might give me a fresh angle on it.

And I said, if it's something that you'd rather not be associated with you could tell me off the record, and I'll say, I got to put an anonymous source, and he thought a little bit, and then he said, turn it off. Turn it off with putting to my capable And he told me something which is pretty startling

and had definitely never been reported before. And you'll find out in the book what that was or your readers or a listeners well, and why it was important and also why it eventually did become on the record after my relationship with Boliosi changed.

It was only after I started interviewing people besides and and people who had never talked about the case before, who had been key prosecution witnesses, where they started telling me different stories that was kind of contradictory of the official narrative, and at that point some of it was so dramatically different than what he presented, not just in his book, but even more importantly, you know, a trial to a jury, what people's lives hung in the balance,

since there were deafence is associated with these convictions. Once I started hearing that from more than one witness, I had to check what they were saying because it was thirty years later, and some of them told me that they had told the police to the same information, but they had never been asked about it a trial or ever seen it in the public form of belieos, these

books or artic and they were wondering why. So at that point I had to coroborate what they said, so I started making it real on an effort to get police finals from the LAPD shriff's files, from the Los Angeles Sheriff's company our division, and also the District Attorney's files, then to his own notes, and that was not easy.

It was time consuming, took a lot of work to get access, and I guess almost all the access I got was through backdoors, you know, not to official people who were in charge of the files, but through people who kind of let me in and said, don't tell

me when I showed you this stuff. So once I started getting that and seeing that what these people had told me was true, then I knew it was something that was bigger than the magazine article and would take much more time than the three months could have been

given to me. And it took a year to I kept reporting up for the magazine for a year, and then the editor and sheef got fired, I think partly because he paid me to report nothing about this for a year, and the new editor and chief wanted me to publish right away and I wouldn't, so at that

point I got a book agent. That was in two thousand, two thousand and one, even maybe early two thousand and one, where I got a book agent, he reached an understanding or I deal with the magazine where I would give them some stuff later in exchange for being able to walk away with my story and continue on it. But again I still didn't think it was going to take me as long as it took me. I thought i'd have a book out in a couple of years, but it takes a long long time to keep even the

information I have in the book. There's a lot of stuff you don't see in the book because it wasn't enough space. But the documents and reports were the most important thing that I was chasing.

to the jury. And you know, when a prosecutor is trying to show a jury that someone's built of something, they only have to put on evidence that supports their argument, but well, they don't have to put on anything that contradicts that. They do have to share that with the defense. If it's something that came through police reports, BELIOSI didn't

do that. He would held it from the defense, and that's a violation of what's called the Brady Law or anything that's as culpatoyer that could help the defense fight their case that the prosecutor has their obligator to share it. And when I took some of that information to the two living defense attorneys said the others had died, they both were shocked and said that had they had that information then they would have actually defended the Manson family

entirely differently than they did. They never even put on a defense. Manson wouldn't allow his attorneys and his fell in Defenden's attorneys to put on a defense. But Rupert Scherld, who was Patricia Clamwinkle's attorney, and Irvin Kinert, who was Manson's attorney, both said this would have changed the entire trial if we had had this stuff, and he obviously, you know, broke the law by not sharing it with us.

Overra Narraiders. He had to deal with Apple to work with the Beatles, and he was door staged on was you know one time in the fifties mediate early sixty the number one female movie store in the world. So Terry was kind of a golden child. Went through Dennis Wilson. He had met Manson and in the official version that Terry testified to a trial and Evince Pileosi presented to the jury and then wrote about in his book. But

Terry had this kind of leeting interaction with Manson. He had met him three times at most, all long before

the murders. The last time he met him was when he went to the Spawn Ranch in May of nineteen sixty nine to kind of informally audition the family for a possible recording contract, and in the official version, Terry wasn't impressed with them, but politely told Manson that he didn't think, you know, they should be working together, but he had a friend who might want to be doing a documentary about the group that would include recording them. And that was that everything ended well and nicely in

May of sixty nine, and Melter never saw again. But what I found from uh in this person the well first and this attorneys files, and then in the sheriff's files were three or four different accounts by two of the main prosecution witnesses, and Thens relied on Denny DeCarlo, who was a biker who was an associate the family, and Paul Watkins, who was kind of a hardcore member.

Both told the police that Ends told Miss Foliosi in the case of the Carlo, that Melcher had been to the ranch to meet with Manson after the murders and early September and to Spawn Ranch and then the second time out at the Barker and Myers Ranches in Death Valley, which is a six hour trip by cars, pretty rough when you get into the desert to try to get to where their hideout was. So that showed that Melcher had this post murders relationship with them. In my admitted

the book. I don't know what that means, you know why that had to be covered up, but it does show that it was very different than what was presented. And Melcher was the linkage to the house. Melcher had lived in the house Shore and was killed in prior to her and left in January of sixty nine, and then Sharon and Roman moved in. And without Terry's involvement in the case and testimony, Manson probably never would have been convicted because he had given the official narrative didn't

go to the house that night with the killers. He sent them there and with orders to kill everybody who lived in the former home of Carrie. So without Terry testifying that that, they probably wouldn't have gotten their conviction of Bensenberg conspiracy. So Stephen Kay, who was Vince's co prosecutor in the case, said, when I showed him these same documents, he said, I don't know what to think about this entire case anymore. Because the Vince lied about this,

well what else would did he lie about? So those are the questions that come up early in the book that kind of sent me longer while goose Chase trying to get the answers to those questions, and that leads

to a lot of other stuff. And as listeners will see if they buy the book, a lot of interesting stuff came up in my investigation, some stuff pretty compelling, other stuff that ends, and I just present everything I have to the reader, and I want the reader to decide in the end what they think happened and why. But I think one thing everyone agrees on after reading the book is it happened these clients happened much differently than we were told and for different reasons.

wasn't told where exactly in Malibu. But also Buliosi writes in the book and had a couple of witnesses testify, Manson told Terry Mountster's good friend Greg Jacobson, another key prosecution witness who knew who was much more of all with the Manson family than Terry was, Manson told him that he had stolen Terry's or either stolen or move There's a couple of different versions Terry's telescope from his Malibu house. He either moved it on the deck to

another spot or stolen it. But that was to let Terry knew before the murders that Manson knew where he was, where he lived, which was the house anymore. So the official version they were sent there to and kill Fear and Terry by killing all the people in his form home. I don't believe that's why they went there. I think the answer size and what was the real relationship and what was really going on between Terry and some other

people in Hollywood and Manson. Unfortunately, you'll see I can only present hypothetical possibilities because I could never find out. I got like two thirds of the story without the last third of the answer.

he was begging Charlie's forgiveness. The report doesn't say forgiveness for what, It's just, you know, the notes of the interview begging history giveness, and Charlie answered, all those pigs had to die. Those pigs had to die. So, you know, as a journalist, you see that and you're like, the first time I saw it, I thought it had to

be wrong. It wasn't until I found out that the Carlo had told about seeing Melcher at the ranch that same week, actually those same days, and then also reported about seeing in that death valley that I went back to this report. So I couldn't interview Paul Watkins to find out, you know, exactly what he saw and heard, because he was already dead for a long time. Couldn't interview the deputy who took the report because it wasn't signed.

I went to Meltzer, and Meltzer denied that it happened, deny that everything I found about him having a post murders relationship with Manson happened. BULIOSI denied everything too, So all I could do was, you know, suppose what he might have been asking forgiveness for. But if you see in the book, I never answer what I think that question is what he was asking forgiveness for, because I don't know, and I'd rather just show what I have

that contradicts the official version. And I suggest kind of pectually, what are some of the things that that, you know, Elcher might have been obligated to Manson boy that type of thing. He had a much more profound relationship with

some of the younger girls in the Manson family. Not only did he'd ever admit it, you know, he denied on the stand and his mother didn't authorized autobiography About ten years after the mothers and she and her author asked Terry to write a chapter about the Manson episode, and in the book, Terry boldly says that he had heard all the rumors about him sleeping with the young

women of the group, and he never did that. They were He called them ugly dogs, and he said he took Michelle Phillips, who he was dating at the time of the shortly after the family had been arrested. He said he took Michelle Phillips down to the Lapd headquarters just so they could see that he was going out with like the most beautiful woman and the one of the most beautiful women in the world, and he said to them, why would I sleep with these smelly journeys

we've written women when I had someone like her? But I found out that, yeah, he was involved with Ruth at Moorehouse who was about fifteen, and some of the other one So, you know, hopefully someday those answers might be told. I know that Greg Jacobson knows the truth. I talked to him and quite a bit for the book,

but he was very CAZy with me. But there are living people that know the answers to what was really going on, And unfortunately I can't present the defendent eventually what was really going on, just that it was going on, just that Melcher had this very different relationship and that it was hidden by the prosecution. That Melcher, you talk.

a lot of this information. And in hindsight, I realized afterwards he thought he could basically persuade me not to use it by offering me, and it's in the book and it's on audio kay too, the option to write his memoir. So I had called him a couple of times on the phone, and I told him I really needed to sit down with him and show him these documents. And he told Rudy Altabelli, who with another prosecution witnessed very good friend to Terry's. He was the owner of

the house where the murders happened. He lived in the back house. He wasn't there the night of the murderers, but he was a key prosecution witness himself, and he was one of the first sources who was telling me that Terry had lied all these years about his relationship with the Manson family, that they were up there all the time when Terry lived there, and he was kind of like Manson was his guru, I think, is how

Rudy put it about Terry. And Terry had called Rudy and told Rudy that none of this stuff was ever supposed to come out, and then said promise he was going to take care of all that. So when I finally met with Terry, I think it was July third, two thousand, on the roof of his pun House apartment building in Cinea, Monica, you know, it was pretty wild. He first denied everything and then threatened to throw all of my documents, my pree case and the implication was

met off the roof. He also said he was going to assume me. He started listing all these attorneys that work for him, and then he asked me, H basically said, why don't you just forget this stupid thing and write my memoirs with me? Because people have been asking me for years. You have no idea how much money I've been offered to tell the stories I have about my mother, and he never called her his mother. He said the stories I have about Doris, and Doris's relationship was with

Elvis Presley and the rap Pack. I mean he was implying that he was going to tell me about his mother. Well he did. He said she wasn't the girl next door like everyone thought. She wasn't. She was still alive. I mean, she only died this past year. She outlived him by many years, and he was her only child, and he was going to set her down the road to get me to not write my book. So that

didn't work. But unfortunately, just like this, I wanted both Terry and Wants to be alive so that they could answer the questions that they wouldn't answer to me too. You know, I was hoping to be mainstream. John Well, it's chasing these guys and saying, well, you know this, this writer, make all these things up or tell us

the true version. And they would have been stuck in a pretty bad place because in the book you feel all the documents I have and the evidence I have, but that's neither here nor now there now because Sinton Terry both passed away before the book came out, what.

a rock star. You find out that not only has have the Beach Boys whipped him off and use a song he's written without his permission or knowledge or paying him, but they've also changed the title and some of the words, which could really piss Manson off. I mean, why didn't that come up a trial, and why wasn't that even in the book. You know, that's one of the things

that shocked me. And again it's cherry picking the facts to support the helter skelter motive, which has melt has excuse me, Dennis Wilson having nothing to do with this. You're also see in my book that Wilson had a much more, a longer and extensive involvement with the family. Then then then testify our presented to the jury and then repeated in this book. And again, Dennis is dead. And you know Dennis had said been quoted by several

journalists before he died. They're saying someday he wanted to tell the truth about the Manson murders and why they happened. But you've gone too.

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Murder during checkout. Now, Tom, we were talking about this official narrative the Bulagosi was wedded to, and only, as you say, twenty five years later mentioned that there was even the participation or the involvement of someone else that might have again altered that narrative that he had been with for twenty five year years when you talked to when you talked to Great Jacobson, what was some of the information that he imparted to you that others didn't seem to have.

of a myth. I go, but no, Greg, you testified the trial under oath that it did happen, and he gave details. Now I remember, it wasn't that it was moved, it was that it was stolen. And he goes, ah, well, you know, Vince want of us the same certain things. So I mean there were a lot of little episodes like that in my interviews with Fence or excuse me, with Greg. But he was, you know, frustrating because you know,

I couldn't. I would go back in the second interview and ask him about that and he would say, well, I don't understand a lot of really matters. And I said, what you're basically saying, I lied under oath at the prosecution start directions. That's huge, and he would just kind of laugh. And I think he was a con artist. He's so alive, and I would love other journals to follow up, journalists to follow up my reporting, and you know from mainstream media and ask him about this stuff.

But uh, unfortunately that's not happening. As far as I know, nobody's really picking up the ball and running with the information I put out there.

attorney and now the District Attorney's office. And I found out about their existence in two thousand and eight and

started trying to get them. It's a long, complicated story, but it's in the book, and it ended up when I shared the information with the District Attorney's office, they really wanted the tapes, and when they thought I wasn't getting anywhere, they stepped in and actually went to court for the tapes, and there was a year long court battle in Texas with the tapes were in the bankruptcy trustees care of attorneys the state because the attorney had died and his law firm had gone bankrupt, and she

was the one who had them, and once Watson found out that she had agreed to share them, first she agreed to share them with me, and then she panicked because she thought that if there was information about other murders that had never been discovered before, and that's one of the things the attorneys that was on those tapes, that maybe she shouldn't give them to a journalist, she

should give them the law enforcement. So she asked me for the DA's contact information, and since he had already been talking to me about this, his name was Patrick's Security, the deputy DA who had all the man's and parole hearings. I thought, well, I'll loop him in and let him

be involved too. So once that happened, they were no longer going to let me have them, and once Secure in his office, went to court and fought on the from the local court, the civil court, to the state Supreme Court for these and the court finally decided in favor of law enforcement. They got those tapes and they promised me I was going to listen to them with them the first time they heard them. Not only did that happen, but they never let me hear them, and

they haven't let anybody hear them. And I think that's because what on those tapes is the true account of how the murders happened, why they happened, possibly who else was killed, you know, the true relationship between Melcher Wilson, other people in Hollywood and the family. And it's fifty years later and there's still it's the only piece of evidence that's never been released to our knowledge that the

LAPD has. You know, they might have other stuff, but that tape is I don't think it's ever going to get out.

of the trial every single day. That's not allowed anymore. I don't know why it was allowed. Then. You know, you'd be disbarred in the state of California if you had any kind of commercial project of a case that you were fighting for on tax petish dollars and also a definitely case. You know, he had a conflict of interest. The minute he signed that book contract and put his co author in the front row, the more assenciational that trial,

the better book he'd had. He was playing to his future readers more than he was to the jury, So that's speculative.

but I don't think Manson for a second believe in that. Unfortunately, the two journalists who did those interviews and were smart enough to ask that question didn't follow up with a natural question, which was, well, then if he sent those people up there to kill share well the people at try Meltzer's home, but not because he wanted to start a race for will why do you send them?

twenty fifteen. I think it was the last interview Buliosi gay before he died. And the Rolling Stone author, you know, I can't really criticize him too much. He wasn't a crime reporter. He was doing a story for Culture magazine, and I guess it just didn't occur to him to ask that follow up question.

started in San Francisco in sixty seven. Co Intel pro had been something that Hoover originated in the forties, the fight that Clux Klan, and then it became dormant, you know, after the clan was kind of immobilized and wasn't that active in the sixties, but it was brought to life again to fight the Panthers by Hoover in sixty seven, and not just the Panthers but other left wing groups,

which is also who Chaos is targeting. And both operations were infiltrating subversive groups, and subversive groups could have been anyone from any war protesters to speech groups, to communists you know American communist groups, to the Panthers, to militant groups. And what they would do is try to get them to commit crimes where they'd notified the local police departments, and then they would arrest them in the process of those crimes being committed and or shoot and kill them.

They also tried to provoke them to kill each other. And the co Intel operations we know a lot about because a group of activists in the early seventies found out was were in Pennsylvania and you know, broke in,

stole the files, shared them with journalists. There were actually congressional hearings and the FBI had no choice but to admit that they had this secret, illegal operation, and they even admitted that they were responsible I think eighteen panther or black militant deaths that were the result of the

co intel pro actions, and they paid reparations. Geronimo Pratt, a famous black panther who was in prison for about twenty years for a murder, a double murder he couldn't have committed because the FBI knew he was in San Francisco when the murder happened, and the murder happened in Santa Monica. All that stuff came out chaos. On the other hand, nobody's ever found the file, so the CIA admitted they had it because that also came out during

these congressional hearings in the mid seventies. But nobody has ever really known the full extent of what they did. And if you try to find a book about chaos. I don't think there isn't. I know there wasn't one, at least for the eighteen years that I was doing my heavy research on this. I haven't checked the last year or two, but if you can look it up in the newspaper articles. But I think my book has the most coverage of chaos of any book that's been published.

Co Intel Pros. Has been a number of books about it, but it's kind of shocking because there are ultimate objectives were to basically stop what was considered then the biggest threat to the national security, which was this left wing revolution of black militants, anti war, hippies, all that kind of stuff, and Manson really really damaged kind of like a whole view of hippies and free love and drugs

and rock and roll. All of a sudden they had an evil face for it, and all the parents thought, wait, that that happened to these young girls who went out and committed such horrific murders after using LSC for a year and living communally with a lot of kids were doing that could happen to our kids too, And it was really ineffective. Whether or not it was engineered by our own government. I don't come to a conclusion. I

just present the evidence I have. Whether or not it was Matt probably did more damage to the hippie movement and the left wing movement than any other entity during that period.

body was found in a hotel. It was about one hundred and twenty miles north in a little town called Bishop which is on the perimeter of the Death Valley, and local law enforcements taught that he was killed by the Manson family. Manson family was arrested, you know, in Death Valley two weeks after Tenarelli's body was found, and

once they were understood to actually be killers. In Los Angeles, local law enforcement, including the DA there thought that they had killed this guy Tennarelly because the circumstances of the suicide were very suspicious, and one law enforcement officer reported seeing him in the company of two people that he identified from mugshots as Manson family members. What local law enforcements and the Bishop police were the only ones who didn't think that he was killed by the Mansion family.

They were sure it was a suicide and they would not allow the case to be investigated by anybody else, and they had it closed. I came along in two thousand and five, I think in six just ask some questions about it. And again it was because once I got access to the DA files in Ingno County and then from police reports, I saw all this evidence that

hadn't been available. Believe was he never even mentioned the guy in Helper's Shelter, but Ed Sanders mentioned him briefly in the Family that book, and I found him referred to in some of the early news coverage of the Manson family after they've been identified as Pei lab Beyonca's suspects and they're in stove. It's the co prosecutor told Rolling Stone that he thought Tennarelli was a victim of

the Manson family. So I brought this massive amount of information to the head of the Bishop Police Department at Kathleen Sheehan, who had just been and name the first woman chief of the police there ever, and she announced to the media that based on my information, she was going to have the case reopen. So you have to read the whole chapter because it's pretty complicated. But what they did was they reopened it just to get all my information and then immediately closed it without doing any

investigation like they had promised. So his family, you know, he had I think seven siblings, five of them were sisters who were still alive. They're all in their eighties, and they're determined to find out what happened because they never believed he committed suicide, and they're determined to find out what happened to him. And they don't even want I mean, their their main concern, their main priority is just to have his death certificate change from suicide to

unknown cause of death. And that's all they want because they're very Catholics, Immigrant Catholics, and you know, you can't be buried in the Catholic raveyard if you committed suicide. And if you believe in Catholicism and the faith, you go to hell. That's the biggest mortal sin after killing someone else's killing yourself. And it's you know, they've been waiting for years to have this change, and it wasn't until I came to them with actual, actual proof. But

he more likely was killed than not. That they kind of energized. And one of the Filippo's nephews, Cosmo, has actively hired people, attorneys, investigators and stuff. Oh, he's talking to them, don't know if he's hired them yet about suing the state, suing bishop, trying to get just the cause of the changes. I'm not saying it doesn't have to be changed the murder, although they'd be happy with just unknown causes or unknown cause.

you showed me what you showed me. And I said, you still have a copy of that letter, And unfortunately he didn't. I you know, I couldn't even get the name of the experience. But remember that that had happened, I think in the eighties or something. I think somebody else who's well, I know this that somebody else had written the book Barnie Hoskins, about just a rocker and role scene in southern California, and he has a chapter

on the Manson family. And he was forced to, at the threat of a lawsuit, remove a lot of the stuff he'd written about Meltzer's relationship with the Manson family. Nothing quite as dramatic, is what I found in police reports, but that showed that Meltzer was sextually involved with one of the fourteen year old girls who then became fifthly

he met her when she was fourteen. And Melcher's lawyers threatened his publisher with a lawsuit, and they burned all the existing copies of his book, and they reissued it with all these modifications. And it's fun. You can. I have it in the end notes of my book, the page numbers from the first edition that you can still get because it was available for about a year before the publishers pulled it. And you can compare the pages and see how they were changed at the order of

Meltzer's attorneys. So Meltcher I wasn't the first one to come to him with this information.

getting tortured and killed work. They were trying to get the money back that they said he had ripped off. I still don't know what really happened, except that Bobby Bossley, mar Bruno and Susan Atkins killed him after three days of holding him hostage and torturing.

If he thought this would happen, what else would he think Bullegosie was capable of tell us about this exchange him.

this evidence that showed the bulios. He had completely you know, invented certain aspects of the prosecution, including you know, getting key witnesses to persion themselves. And he told me, he goes, Tom, I know this case as well now as since it because because at that point Stephen Kay had been doing all the parole hearings for all the Manson family members since they became eligible for parole in the mid to late seventies, and he was going to retire like six

months later. And he said to me that day he goes, you know, I'm sixty and oh that sixty times he appeared opposite Manson family members when they had their parole hearings, and at each of those hearings he had to go through what they had been convicted of. I'm a new detail. You know, how they killed, why they killed, what was present a trial. So he did really know the case, probably as well or better than Buliosi. And he said, nothing you can show me is going to convince me

of anything other than what I already know. But once he went through the documents, you know, I just saw him sinking deeper and deeper into his chair, you know, holding his head in his hand, shaking his head, and finally saying, I don't know what to think about what I thought I knew so well anymore. And he goes, this is Vince's handwriting. These are his notes telling a very different story, and they crossed out. Everything that was kept from me and from the rest of the world

is crossed out by Buliosi. He says, this is really really serious. And I said to him, you know, what do I do with that as a journalist. And he said, well, you could take it to the district attorney, the current district attorney, who is Geve Cooley. And I said, then what might he do with this information? And that's when he said, you know, he didn't want to say it.

I don't think he's trying to be straight with me that you know, he could call habeas corpus, which means vacate their convictions and then have, you know, then decide is it worth putting out a whole new trial against Charlie Manson when Lecily van Houghton, Text Wats and Susan Atkins boost Davis knows all of them would have to get new trials or just let him go, you know. And I said, Okay, that's all I needed to hear. And I didn't take it to Steve Cooley because I

didn't trust what he'd do with it then. But I did think that I was going to have it out within a year as a book, and I knew he'd still to be an office, and I thought, that's when he can do it. Unfortunately, it took a lot longer than that. And the fact is the book's now for two months right now, and nobody in the medium Los Angeles, nobody at the LA Times has asked anybody from the GA's office or the LAPD for a statement on this. Nobody's doing anything about it. I mean I'll give you

a little scoop. The New Yorker's got a big story coming out about the book about the legal aspects of my findings, where they're all analyzed, and I think it's going to come out either the end of this week or next week. I think that might cause some change. That's what I'm hoping for.

had never seen it before. But he could say that because I don't believe him, because, as he says in his book, he saw every single piece of evidence, every report in the trial. But he told me that day when I showed it to him, he had no idea what it meant. He never saw it. But when I showed him his own notes, he admitted that those are

my notes. And yes, I guess Danny Carlo told me all of that, but I must have decided he wasn't telling the truth or something later and I said, well, you were so obligated to share with the defense, and he didn't have an answer for that or for why he crossed out that Carlo interview knowes I think on

like sixteen or seventeen pages. The only thing that's crossed out, and that doesn't it isn't contained in the testimony Carlo did give, was that information about Melcher being at the ranch after the murders twice?

book I can't even remember. If you put my name and medicine in the Instagram, you'll find it. And I've got almost all the documents we've discussed now scanned and presented their I also have excerpts of audio interviews of me and Stephen Kay, with Stephen Kay making those important statements to me, with BULIOSI and myself. I haven't put up to Terry Meltzer one audio yet, but I'm going to put that up in the next month, and a lot of other things about Chaos MK. Also that kind of thing.

I'm going to be very happy with it. When I said, he didn't want to tell me too much, but he said he wasn't some of the leading experts on criminal law, you know, legal scholars about perjuries, a boarding perjury, what it defends, what a prosecutor is required to share, just to see whether or not my findings held water. And he didn't tell me exactly what they said. He said,

you're going to be very happy with the story. So I'm hoping that changes things, because you can't get a really a better platform than a New Yorker with their reputation, people are going to take seriously what they decide, what

they conclude. And then there's another online magazine called The Intercept, which is a national security magazine, and they're exerting our chapter on Jelly West and the CIA and mk Ultra and I've just been working on the edit of that because they had to condense it, and I'm just making sure everything's accurate, and there's some up they had to cut out that needs, you know, a little bit of exposition.

And I just gave it all to my collaborator after I finished with it yesterday and he's going over it now and then hopefully that'll be out sometime after her labor day.

I want to thank you very much Tom O'Neil for coming on and talking about Chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA and the secret history of the sixties. As you mentioned, there's a Facebook page for Chaos and also Instagram. Just type in your name and I'll get around to that information on Instagram posting great.