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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Hello, this is your host Danzepaski for the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written
about them. My special guest today is Mara Martin Gale. She has written a book called Cannibal Killers. These are no ordinary killers. They are monsters who murder, mutilate, and carry out the most gruesome, unimaginable act of all, eating the flesh of their victims. Cannibal Killers includes the world's most evil psychopaths, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Gain and Andre Chicatillo, with eight pages of harrowing photographs Morea Martingale. I'm not sure if we have a connection with Morea Martingale as
of yet. I think we may have a problem. But let's see if we have more of Martingale.
Hello, Mora. Anyway, we may have a problem miscommunication. Mora is in Great Britain and I've changed the time of my program from eight am eight pm in the evening to nine am to accommodate this interview.
There may have been some.
Miscommunication exactly what who she was supposed to call at that time. So until she does get my email and the number, I will go through her book for her until we get her on the line. Anyway, the book is called Cannibal Killers and More. Martingale is the author and this book came out in nineteen ninety three, first in Great Britain, and then I was going to ask her the question about further publishing. But the book copy I have is Saint Martin's Press, so that's its distributor
in America. Anyway, this book has been a bestseller for years. I've seen it on the shelves for many years. I wouldn't say I saw in the nineties, but I've seen it for many years, and it's an incredible book. It does. The publisher is trying to get people in trust in the book by discussing the world's most evil psychopast Jeffrey Dahmer at Gaine and Andre Chickatillo. But she also discusses other cases and with her background in clinical psychology, let
me actually get her background for you here. She is particularly interested in a normal and clinical psychology and when she did her psychology when she actually did her psychology degree, and she also had an interest in Gothic literature and did a fair amount of research, and an interest in evolutionary psychology and anthropology, and a lot of these things came together to be able to have her put assemble this incredible book called Cannibal Killers. Let's see if we
have her on the air right now. Hello, Mora, Hi, how are you fine? Thank you well, thank you, thank you very much, Thank you very much for agreeing to our interview today. What I did in the interim while we got you connected was to have me introduce the book a little bit. Uh So, I will thank you very much for green in this interview, and welcome to the program, and we're going to be talking about Cannibal Killers,
your incredible book. Now, what I was just going through just a little bit for our audience was your background that enabled you to be able to write this incredible book. The perspective that you chose was quite different from many, well almost all of the true crime books that I have read of that genre. Let me ask you, what is your educational background that enabled you to write this book and why were you interested in writing this book, what issues did you want to explore?
Well? Educational background, I did a degree in psychology and a degree in psychology and English, actually my first degree, and I did an awful lot in the psychology part with abnormal and clinical psychology. Then I went on to do a master's degree in English, and I did it awful lot on gossip literature, circular and nineteenth century Gothic literature, and then I went on to do a pH d
in Gothic literature. So I suppose the literature aspects which also overlaps on evolutionary psychology and anthropological interests, I suppose I would call it because I wouldn't say an expert of anthropology, But I suppose it was all those things that came together. Because the literary parts of writing about
Gracula are various of vampire novels. You have an awful lot of the blood lust aspects of sexual aspects of books like Dracula and if Anyone's Ever Revenue and Rice, those sort of the sexuality that's attached to blood drinking, which has its roots in lots of other things like religion and so on, and our own primitive past. So I suppose all those are the things that drove me. And I suppose the first question is that when they had the issue of Jeffrey Darmer and are Tiptilo in Russia,
they were all out. This all happened about the same time the Silence of the Lambs came out, And because I had a lot of research, and because the Silence of the Lambs seemed to be creating such a lot of shock, I well, people, What people were saying is what earth possesses anyone to do something like this, to kinnibalize somebody else's body? And I suppose I set out to answer that question in more of a research way than just writing a sort of verbal litery version of
a slasher movie. I didn't really want it just to be like that. I wanted it to actually have some sensible research behind it, so that I tried to do. Whether it was successful or not is the base of all of course.
Right now, for the specific research done for the board, how long did it take? And maybe you can tell our audience three research you found out some of the history of cannibalism. Can you give us a little bit of that.
Well, the problem is that you when you talk about cannibalism you have different aspects of it. You have the aspects of people who used to we looked at our ancestors. The cannibalism was very much and that is in our own history. And you do get instances like the saorny Bean case in Scotland back in now when was it fifteth century and he and his whole family lived out in a cave and apparently just ex people. It capture
people who were on the road and adept them. I don't think there was any sexual aspect of that at that time. I think it was purely expedients, if you like, because they were hungry, and well they're not all they were hungry, but that was what they did.
They didn't do it.
The whole family didn't eat other people for the sort of reasons why we're seeing ar sadistic killers these days doing it. They were just predators and they just regarded any prey, whether they had four legs of two as being fair game. And they killed I think it was
something like forty fifty people that they actually consumed. And I think there's also cases like the internesces in the Andes were people's plane crashed and that was in the nineteen seventies, I think, and they had nothing else to eat, and they sent to cannibis into stair lives. And I mean, I think we see this sort of great fear, the terrible fear that everybody has beaken their psychees of being eaten. You see that in films like The Road and books
like The Roads. And I say, which I don't know whether any of your listeners have seen, but life breaks down, society breaks down, and there are then crowds of cannibals that have to be avoided. And it's the full horror of that. So that there's that aspect of cannibalism mixed in with all the mythical tribal belief systems which are generally had two religion and religious directives either imagine well
all imagine that religion. If you take if you take religion as meaning anything from tribal belief systems to modern religions which have lasted for centuries, you have a lot of blood beliefs attached to all those as well. Yes, did you question or not?
Yes? Yes, yes, you've covered quite a bit of it. I was surprised though, to read like you do make the point there that it regardless of whether it's a primitive primal pardon me, a primitive society will say, or whether it's a modern society that's that has to developed religion, there still has been these aspects of blood letting and cannibalism and some of these things that are all in twined, as you say, But I was surprised to read about
each in China's history regarding canonalism. Maybe could tell us a little bit about that. I thought that was very surprising.
That is really quite shocking, isn't it that I opened the book with that, But actually it wasn't that many centuries ago. But yes, they used us slave girls. I spect it was basically canibalism. All these other sadistic murders, it's basically using people as objects, and it's the people
who have power use the people who are powerless. And with slavery and our whole history, in that particular case, they would they were actually slave girls who were very beautiful, and they would bring them in and people who were the banquets, the wealthy, the wealthy people who are the king's guests would sort of see these these beautiful young
girls and their mouths of water. The thought that they were going to be eating them soon, because then they would take the girls away and they would they would kill them and eat them, just like you know, you're going to a restaurant and see certain salmon in a in a tank and say, well, actually, I'd like to have that one, or a mobster or a crab. It was the same principle at work. It's just like an effort of incredible demonstration of power that studies were just objects powerful families.
And this carried on for about three hundred years according to your book.
If it did, I'm trying to think of the most recent date when it was actually still in force. I think it was probably probably about sixteen hundred and seventeen hundreds when this is still going on in certain places in the world. Maybe not necessarily ancient China, but but there was still Actually I don't think it might have been it was still ancient China when it was going on. I'm sorry, I haven't got dates to in my mind,
but I know it was comparatively recently, quite shockingly recently. Really, we look back to our history. We're not just talking mean before here, No.
No, it's interesting and incredible. Now we need to before we go into an exploration of some of these worst the evil psychopaths, as your book reports to have included in the book. We need to discuss just a few things. Well, I think we need to discuss why this seemingly alien behavior, this derange act of eating another human, it's not classified as insanity, And maybe then we can maybe we can
just start with that. We will talk about the psychopathology, about the psychopathic killer as well, just to prepare people so that we have a basis to understand what we're talking about here.
Right, Well, they arguing about sanity is very interesting because of course we would all say, as somebody who does something like this especially insane, that Mayoboda's saying human could do the sort of things that we witness these people doing. Right, But I suppose in a legal sense, what they're looking for people who actually are able to plan. They say, those sort of two sorts of killers. There's a sort of organized and sort of non social killer. They plan,
they behave in a normal way. They plan the crimes in a very detailed way. They don't actually kill anybody when they think they might get caught, so they go equipped and they make detail plans such as, for instance, Jeffrey Darmer when he was going out to gay clubs to try and pick up young men to bring home to s wanted to drive and kill and eat and
have sex with. He would prepare his room in advance, so he'd move all the furnitures, there's plenty of room, and he would set the videos so that he had a film to show them while he gave them a drink with drugs in. So it was all extremely organized. Quite often these sort of criminals might, even when they killed somebody, take the body away and hide it, or they might even put it somewhere later on so that
someone will be found. Someone will find it, and then they'll follow the case with great excitement because they get off on the fact that the police don't know who it is and that they do. And then you have the disorganized, a social killer who they are more to be seen as sort of sendless outsider characters who are loan as many most of them, a lot of people are loaners who are still organized. It doesn't exactly fall into completely black and white counts here, but they murder
in a more uncontrolled way. They don't have the same method, they don't take as much care, they usually get found more quickly because they aren't as careful. They're more likely to kill somebody and then abandon the body and just escape because they haven't actually thought it through, so they are considered to be disorganized asocial. I guess that those sorts of killers who do act in a framezy without preparation are considered an insanity verdict is more like is be considered for that.
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Perhaps than the organized killer, because what they're looking at is what legal legally they're looking at, is the crime whether the person without of his mind when he committed the crime, not really what they did afterwards with the body, but basically whether they were insane and in the grip of some sort of craized disorganized when when they did it. And most of the killers that that we've looked at,
as I looked at in the book, were not. They were very methodical, but that's why they managed to escape for so long.
I suppose the least methodical of all of them.
Was Richard Chase from Sacramento, who he was known as a vampire killer. He bought a gun and he practiced and very rarely do sadistic killers use guns, but that he wanted blood and he did not take the source of care. I suppose that some of the others it makes it down and playing taking care it makes it something like the positive attributes. Obviously it's not, but that
he did act in a more praised way. But the sanity argument, it does go back to the history where where they that is essentially that is essentially did they know what they were doing? Did they know the difference between right and wrong when they actually committed the crime?
Right now, you were talking about Jeffrey Dahmer, and he's a great case and that's why you likely included it in your book, because there is quite a bit to
discuss and quite a bit to see with his particular case. Now, Jeffrey Dahmer is fairly well known, and I remember seeing the movie Silence of the Lambs and finding an the credible and then a few months later in Milwaukee, Jeffrey Dahmer, real life cannibal killer, was arrested, and his crimes were, obviously people know, more horrifying than any fictional book or movie could ever be. Now, there seems to be a
fair amount of psychiatric study of Dahmer. Having the cooperation from his family and even Dahmer himself helped authorities collect valuable information about him, especially in regards to his upbringing and its effect on him and as eventual progression to serial killer later and he was when we talked about organized and disorganized, They do classify him as being mixed, and a trial there really was an issue of whether he was an insane were at least insane at some point.
Can you talk a little bit about Dahmer and what you found interesting about some of the study that was done after the fact, Given that Dahmer was willing to talk and not attribute some of his behavior. Well, maybe you can tell us a little bit about that.
I think you have to explain that further.
Well, the thing is, the thing is with Jeffrey Dahmer that his father was interviewed and Jeffrey Dahmer was interviewed, and Dahmer was very adamant to say that, and there was evidence as well that there was not much of the typical attributation, you know, attributation in terms of his background, in terms of his eventual progression to serial killer. He wouldn't fit a profile.
Yeah, because of course, the usual thing is to look at the background of these statistic killers and you can usually find a very troubled childhood and difficulties with parental arguments, rouse violence, neglects, And there wasn't really any of that really with Darma. He had a very happy childhood really
in terms of what his family offered us. The family were not neglectful family or violent, and he when they were searching for possible reasons as to why he turned out that he had the sort of reasons that almost heavy feeble ones like, oh, well, he was very jealous when his younger brother was born when he was six perhaps all over the place, and they don't all turning
to kill us. He was doing things like finding road killed victims animals on the road and putting them up when he was a very small boy, and one of the and he was omitting to being sexually stimulated when they were cutting up animals in biology, which again is so extreme that nobody would really think that they could identify with that and one of the other the other
psychological requirements. I suppose that people would find to say, this will deflect someone from their possible their possible path of the murder is that not necessarily a close and internal relationship, but a relationship with somebody, the person who makes a difference, who could actually save them if you like, by having a close relationship. Well, I think Jeffrey Darmer was pretty well adored by his grandmother, and his parents were not too bad parents, and his brother, of course
was fine. So there were no there were no real there were no real reasons that you could actually put your single on other than something in the genetic makeup somewhere that some wires the go across somewhere in this child.
Because there were so many there were so many possible thoughts, someone said it was because he was gay, but not someone said, one of the psychological reports is he was gay, but he really hated his own homosexuality, and so therefore he would project that onto his victims, and that's why that's why he did this. But I mean, that's also wasn't really a case for cannibalism. That might have been a reason why he hated his interprets wanted to kill
other gay people. But when you say full stops, really the rest of it. They trying to drill holes in their heads from fermamento zombies, you know, removing the flesh and saving the skeletons and hanging the skeletons in the shower to take photographs of them, and keeping heads and fridges and performing sex acts on them. And this was also the absolute far reaches of extreme behavior of it
that nothing could be an exploration. That don't seem to be any real explorations as to why he became like he was that you could find in other murderers that I looked at, at least, what.
Is surprising to the when you first read about the motivation for some of these serial killers and some of the outrageous acts that they do the obvious overkill, the mutilation, posing of victims, all sorts of characteristics and signature of some of these serial killers. Did you find in your research that the actual added horror of cannibalism as a feature of some of these serial killers, was that also involved with the sex act as well? Is it sexual to these people?
Yes, it's the ultimate act of power. Isn't it the absorption of that person and continue destruction of that person and wanting to make them of themselves and be powerful. That, Uh, the statistic stabbing and mutilation and so on, there isn't necessarily a sex fact as we would interpret sex acts.
Attached to that.
I'm probably repeating things that you already know here, But the actual frenzy of stabbing and mutilating is the sort of is the sexual gratification, and a killer may have an all gather in doing that without actually having what
we would consider the normal sects. So if you if you're looking at at this sort of behavior biting and that the biting acts, which of course is very much tied up with sexuality in our primitive backgrounds and in the psychological literature to do with vampires and vampiristic behavior, which you often find in in psych sadistic mental patients, you would find that quite commonly. I think they all
just tied up together. So yes, it would be sexually the answer, right, So I rumbled on a bit that I didn't no.
No, you did, no, no no.
It's now we've talked about Jeffrey Dahmer and you have included just we're going to talk about some of the main people that you have featured in your book, and you can tell us why that you felt it necessary to include them and what you learned from their particular cases when you drew it back to giving you any insight. Obviously, some of these killers Ed Gain as one of the killers we're going to be talking about, and Edmund Kemper,
and they couldn't be coming from completely different backgrounds. More so, so, maybe we could start off with ed Gain and briefly tell us who Ed Gain is, what he was accused of. I think some people do know him, but a lot of people don't know that he engaged in cannibalism. They know him from other reports that they have some information that they've gathered. Tell us about Ed Gain well.
He is probably most famous because he was the inspiration for several films like Psycho and the and in Silence of the Lambs. I think the character of Buffalo Bill was based on again.
Because what he well, what he ultimately did, he would he would.
He started off a necrophiliac and would go to graves and get their bodies to do what he wanted to do, but ultimately ended up in killing women to do it. He lived out in the wild in plainfield is Content with his mother, who was a very dominating woman.
And.
His brother and his mother than his mother both died and he was left on his own, very lonely, strange, weird, weird looking little man with pale, icy eyes. But he
was very keen on huntings. But he had this drive, but he ultimately ended up digging up bodies and grays, and then he would take their skins and their genitals and he would fashion them into suits to wear, and he would dress as a woman, and he would he would hang the bodies up and as if they were deer and dismember them, and he would use the skin to make chairs and footstools, and also a suit of
clothes for himself. So the theory was one of the theories that he was so totally dominated by his mother, but that he was he felt he was like her when he when he just like that, because.
I mean in normal.
Transvestitism normal actually we're normal on that people would would would do it and not really they do it because they like to look like a woman and they want to be taken with a woman that he had put did all this in supercit because he used he used parts of bodies, so so there you can't actually say, oh, he was a transvestortite. He just wanted to be a woman.
That there was obviously the greatest sickness there. And he was caught when he It was a day out day when everybody went out hunting in the town and he went to the local village store and and he just killed the woman who was there, who was a middle aged woman, and took her back home and did all the things that he did to all his victims and cannibalized. And yes, they found, they found, they found parts of the flesh in the house. He'd dissect the bodies and
he eat the hearts. He keeps the heads and the sect organs. But he would also eat the flesh and deliver and parts, and then he'd make decorations through bodies for his house from all the other body parts. Apparently he may have belt out of skin and cut off nipples and use the bones to make a table, and so yes he did. He is what non psychologist was called total. I mean, it's it's sort of it's too
extreme to even imagine that. You can see why somebody liked normal dates in Psycho was based on Dine with the obsession with the mother. I don't know whether there was any there's any suggestion that I could call him Dine and you call him Geen. I'm sorry, I look at it as a German name. Well I thought I thought you'd synstic dome. But uh, yeah, I don't think there's any evidence that he felt he's being given messages
by his mother to do this right. But that's obviously was what Hitchcock took when he made the film of Psycho. But that mother bates have been directed by his mother and controlled by his mother.
Now we have just a couple more cases briefly to talk about, and then we want to talk about you know, one of the most bizarre cases, uh is obviously this I see a saga from Japan. Okay, you see a Cigawa. Okay, got it, thank you. But let's talk about just briefly this and this is one of the most horrible cases, is this, Andrea Chickatillo, just briefly tell us about I didn't know about this killer at all. And what's interesting is that it's just a few months after the world
here is about Jeffrey Dahmer his Chamber of Horrors. Another even more, if there can be someone that ups the level of evil, it's this guy. So please tell us a little bit about this guy.
Yeah, well, he's Russia's worst serial killer and he's right up there in the in the whole world was he? I think he claimed to have killed about sixty people, but actually the only charge with fifty three murders. He was born in a period in Russian history when there was great poverty and famine, and he told a story. He claimed that he was driven to this.
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Were necessarily where I lost the terms and conditions eating less or. He became like this because when he was a child, his mother had told him that he'd had an older brother who had one day gone vanished. He has gone walking in the forest and they'd vanished because he'd been taken away and he'd been eaten. Liking a fairy story. So it's like all parents tell their children don't go off with strange men because these terrible things had happen, and they tell them stories of Hansel and Gretel.
But in Ticktia's case, he claimed that this is the thing that actually started him off because he couldn't stop thinking about his little brother who was taken away and eaten. There's no evidence. I don't think that this story did actually happen. It's just that Chipotila claimed that's what he'd been told. And I suppose you could think mother might tell some story about what would happen to little boys off in the forest. But he was obviously a disturbed child.
He had He was a very sort of tall and gainly sort of boy, and he he had a problem with bedwetting to quite an old age, and of course he was ridiculed at school because of this, and he grew up with intelligence. He was an intelligent person. He went to do a degree and became an English teacher, and he got married and his wife found that he was a very doting husband, except they did have a
lot of sexual problems because he was impotent. He had a problem with impotence, which he'd always had through his teenage years, which again helped to make him feel like an outsider. But to all intents and purposes, he's married with the two children, was happy. But he then at one point he started abducting children, and then he abducted a little girl and in a friendy he killed her and with a knife and richer apart, and enjoyed the blood and ets and drank and discovered that this was
a thing that made him sexually satisfied. So he hadn't been sexually satisfied in any other area. So having found that, he then went on to kill more and more people as a great and grave level, killed more and more atrocities on their bodies. When he killed them, he wasn't really particularly fussed whether they were a male female adult. I suppose the only people he avoided were adult males because I suppose they would be able to fight that
more more readily. But he just escalated his desires because of it, all these fantasies that these sort of men have, The reality is never as good as the fantasis, so they have to keep upping the extremes they go to in order to try and achieve the same level of satisfaction, which is why the crimes of one person get more and more brutal and sodistic, because they.
Don't.
They find it not enough to do what they did the last time, so they have to make it more extreme. And so he committed all these crimes over a long long period, and the police had The police were totally useless because they they were confused for a start, because the victims were dissimilar, and normally if you were looking for a serial killer, you would they would normally kill within their own sexual preference, and as with Jeffrey Darmer,
he was gay. He killed with the gay men. In fact, with Jeffrey Armor as I can just give at for a moment. I think there were another five murders while he was in Germany while he was there the army that were sadistic and mutilating murders that they thought they might have actually been attributable to him, But the fact that there were women amongst this, they actually dismissed that
and said, well no, because he didn't actually kill. But people tend to kill within their own sexual area of preference. Jeffie didn't do that. He sort of killed everybody like pan sexual and he was. He was sexualistimates by all. He would even known as the railway a railway kill everybody used to ride the railway trains and select victims. And he was an extremely personable and agreeable and talkative chap.
He would go on chap to a woman quite often they would be existers or prostitutes, homeless people, but he would go on chat to them and he talk to them about the weather and about you know, whether they've putted any mushrooms in the forest. And people liked him, and he would convince him to go with him and then he would just sort of leap on and tear them apart. But the police eventually, they actually arrested various people there for the of the crimes, and but they
refused to let the press know. They refused to publicize this, which would have been their best weapons really. So even though in this place called Rostov, they've got sort of at the time that thirty people who died, that they had no idea, I mean, no nearer detaching the person who had done it. They didn't want to release it to the press because I suppose partly the Russian fear of, you know, fear of things not being secret, and also the fear of causing panic. So nobody really knew that
this is happening. And then eventually they did actually oh oh, and then they did actually apprehended at one point and they they've got a victim, and they did they've got a semen sample from the victim, but they got chicks either, and they did a blood test on him and the blood type of semen type were different, so they didn't pursue that anymore because it was assumed at that time in the ninety eighties, but they were always the same. But it was completely you know, there wasn't any possibility
that people could have different blood and Seman types. So they left him free and it was only later that they act to discovered this can happen. And Chichila himself believed that made him unique and different and very special. With that that his Wooden Seman type didn't match. Shall I say, were you're going to ask me a question? No?
Sorry? The Chickatillo though. One of the features you were talking about, some of the serial killer profile features, and one of those is many of these many of these serial killers contact authorities or the media, or when they are finally caught, they relish the idea of giving all the details of their murders. What was it about Chickatillo that was unusual compared to some of these other people? He was particularly it you would be if if it was fust the trial.
Yes, do you mean when he was actually caught and tried well, when he was caught, he denied it at first, He denied anything at first, and they but but then the psychologist who was talking to him convinced him that only somebody who is totally insane, could have done the sort of crimes that he refused of, and so sort of dangled the possibility that he might actually not be executed but might be put in a psychiatric hospital, at
which point jupt Low admitted everything. He admitted to the murders that the police had got details of an evidence of, and gave them, you know, facts that nobody else could know. He then admitted to another twenty murders and then took the police to places where bodies were buried. And then when he was in court, he then decided to pretend well,
pretend to be insane. So he started behaving like a complete madman, rattling the bars because he was put in a cage not so much to protect him and protect everybody else, but to protect him from the crowd, because the scenes at the court were just full of Vixim's relatives who were screaming for his blood and demanding that he should be given to them. And so he would take his trousers off and display himself to everybody who'd say that he had breasts, and he was going to
give milk to people. But it is going to set up that it's been a communist plot, and he just played mad because I think he realized at that point that he might not actually escape being executed after all. And you do get But of course when he went back to his sally, he was perfectly normal and fine.
They had to protect him in prison, by the way, because the relative, a relative of one of the victims, was a warder, a warden at at the prison, so he had to be under special protection there as well, because people were so anxious to kill him.
Is he still alive today, No, he was.
He was executed in nineteen ninety four, nineteen ninety four. But there's sort of things he said, you know, when he admitted it, he then started claiming that he was a special person, that he was a special on this blood and human think. He claimed he was special. He claimed that the people he was killing that he was doing the public service because they were just ruthless elements.
He called them drifters who he was cleaning up the streets, which actually, coincidentally is what a British killer, the Yorkshire Ripper claimed when he in the nineteen seventies, that would be the late seventies, when he was killing winning in Leeds, Yorkshire, and they were all prostitutes, and so he was saying that he'd been told to do this by God, to clean up the streets. Well, Chickstilo said the same sort of thing. Really, he was. The thing that's so amazing
about Chikatilo is with his wife. Actually, this is very similar to the Ortu Ripper case as well. His wife was amazed because she thought that he couldn't even kill one person, never mind fifty odd, because he was such a kind and caring, loving husband and father. And that's even more conciderna that these people can lead a normal life. And then it is very much a gentle and hide situation. And if as if they have got something inside them, but it's just released and they turned into a monster.
Well to explain that, certainly, that's what we talk about antisocial behavior, which was formally referred to as psychopathic behavior, the psychopathic killer. And when people say, well they're not insane, well then there has to be some categorization. And I think antisocial behavior sounds a little nicer or a little more normal.
Then well they stop calling people psychopaths, didn't they It's acually calling them sociopaths, as if that sort of makes it better.
I don't know whether it is a what sounds more harmless.
I suppose what it is is that that originally people would be declared psychopathic, and it would be usually people who'd committed crimes. But I think what's been discovered in the last twenty or thirty years or though, is that we could all appear on a psychopathic scale. If you imagine a continuum, then we could put all of us on there somewhere being psychopathic to some degree or another, or sociopathic to some degree or another. And not all
people who are psychopaths are or sociopaths are killers. They just and a lot of people who the psychopaths or sociopaths are very very successful at what they do and are big business, and the sort of qualities that the psychopaths would have, they would be extremely charming, very very good. People wipe them. They're totally ruthless, and they regard everybody else as being there to serve their own purpose because they're so whomely either century there's no sense of feels
or shame or no conscience. So those sort of skills, particularly if they are able to charm people when people wipe them, are very useful in business, and so you don't necessarily have to kill people to do this. And presumably the aspects of desiring.
To slaughter is in conjunction with being a psychopath rather than just being a psychopaths on its.
Own, so you have another element working there. But I think probably psychopathy is very much at the heart of all the killers that we're talking about, because one couldn't do these sorts of things without feeling or remose.
The only thing is yes, sorry. What I thought though, was that, And you know, I understand exactly what you're saying, and I've read all the stuff from Robert Hare and the check Lee psychopath checklist. The thing is, though, is that shouldn't there be some distinction between a psychopathic killer and a psychopath? Otherwise some of the characteristics of the psychopath are more inclusive. A lot of people are self centered,
a lot of people exhibit no conscience. If you're asking me if they exhibit no conscience, but obviously they justify. There's a lot of business practices that could be termed psychopathic. So shouldn't there be a real distinction and not such a nice and fuzzy word like social path to distinguish these, you know, these people.
Well, I suppose that's what I meant about the continue I have a seventeen year old son, and I think seventeen year old probably also is psychopathic in the endocentric that's right, But he doesn't speak kill animals or anything like that. But I think it's to say that boys of our sage goes through where everybody's nearly there to serve their needs. So, yes, that's true. What you're saying
is quite true. And like, and I think they have actually identified areas of the brain metal where they can judge people to have these strong psychopathic elements with the what's it called when they do that imaging where they can actually show various areas in the brain that that they can say this person's to a greater degree psychopathic.
But but yeah, I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if you have somebody who is psychopathic but has no other sexual drive two to torture or kill or or even dominate another another person sexually, well that's another element that has to be added into into this. I don't think you can just say, oh, well that's because he did this because he's a psychopath. I think you could say, well, he is a psychopath, but that's not the reason who did it, because they are.
Of a psychopaths who don't do that.
That's sorry, am I'm making myself. I'm really just sort of saying what I what I believe. I'm sure there will be far more qualified psychiatrists out there who would be able to correct in areas where I'm not correct.
But I think I think psychopathy is I think.
You would have to be. Well, it's rather like the studies of statistic killers who are in prison. They can say, you can say that all the stadistic killers are in prisoned as a figure like sixty percent of them have been abused in childhood, so therefore that but that actually means that another forty percent of them haven't. That's right, So you can't you know, there are all these correlations that you can make, but they're not necessarily causes because
you can find substantial exceptions. And in a way, that's rather like, you know, yes, all these these killers will be psychopaths, undoubtedly, but that doesn't mean that everyone's a psychopath is going to be a killer.
Yes, let's we don't have that much time, so let's I want to include this in because this is one of the most fascinating portions of your book and a story that I had never heard of at all before war anywhere. So in the book you discussed the cases truly the most bizarre for the reaction of the country
in which this cannibal killer lived and killed. You state that the Japanese, more than most nationalities, have always shown an appetite for the bizarre, especially if there's a macabre element of suffering or pain that spiced up the entertainment value.
And you also say that Yu Kuyo Mishima Mishima, a homosexual homosexual status who was stimulated by the side of blood, became the most successful Japanese writer of all time, and what he wrote about Japanese society seemingly embraced and also greatly influenced a Japanese man, which is featured in your book. Name Again, you can correct me on the pronunciation. I see Awa, I wouldn't, I wouldn't slatt.
I've always I always.
Okay, there we go, We've got that right. That's probably right. Okay, Now what did write about and and how did it influence Sagawa? And and what did Sagawa go on to do?
Well? I can't really say.
You all.
Mischiva wrote about that he was he was quite a famous Japanese writer and he and he did right, hm, Well, I think he was very interesting in the whole Harry Kerry aspect of Japanese literature that there's a lot of I don't know, I'll go say violence, that's unfair, but but I don't know whether you get some of the Japanese programs in America which I've I've mentioned I be
in the in my book. There was a series now I can't even remember what it was called Nowhere where people would a bit like the I'm a celebrity, get me out of here that we have in England now where people go to the jungle and are made to eat horrid things like that. Okay, it was it was very long a game show where people would go and be humiliated and have to do things that were really painful.
And terrible, and everybody in Japan TOOTLEGI one and there's quite a lot of I think, I don't know, I thought about the whole Japanese people, but I think the reaction to Cigar was murder and the way that TV and media have.
Reacted to it. I think there's a a sort of a flattening maybe of response to these things, and maybe appears because of the Japanese traditions of nobility and bravery that were attached to the forgot in the world that they you know, the swords then what the swords number of the film of the same name with Tom cruising it Samurai? Thank you, sorry Samurai and all the traditions that are associated and mission met was he killed himself by ripping out his own stomach, and he's fantasized about
that and written about with in his literature. But I haven't read any of the literature. I have to say. I just know that because I read it myself. So whether that was an influence of I don't know. But was obviously here a strange little individual.
Now he now what he did was was accepted. Why I mentioned the poet because it seems odd that you do talk about the Japanese being this nationality unlike others that has this pensiont penticcts for for the bizarre. Now, the thing is is that this poet is a celebrated poet despite the nature of his poetry and the subject matter.
And and then this Sagawa becomes despite his crime of murder and cannibalism becomes Also there was also an aspect of his father being rich, and you say that's part of the outrage of this as well, that he had preferential treatment. But still, bottom line, the society accepted him and his murder and cannibalism and elevated it to a point that did he was entitled to do this because he was an artist and he was entitled to this special experience.
It was an autistic cat. Yes, yes, he has shown he was a very small man. He's shown me an inclination to attacking. He was kind of a thing about large Western women. And he had done an attack on a nade attack on a woman when he was younger, in his twenties, and she had fought him off, but he'd been prosecuted and his father had of aged. I hadn't sent to Paris to try and gusue out of this phase. And when he was at Paris, he met a Dutch woman who was also studying studying at the university.
He's a very cover a man and he'd befriended and then he proposed that he should just sleep with her one night, which came out to his house and she said no, and so he killed her. He shot her in the head and then dismembered her and kept the
parts of the body. But it was all. It was very He was apprehended very quickly because he had no way of disposing of her body as where he put it up and tried to dump it, put in a suitcase and tried to dump it in the Bois de Boulogne in the lake, but he was seen, so he ran away and he was caught very very quickly. But what happened was that he was actually declared to be insane and he was sent to a psychiatric hospital in Paris.
But his father intervened, and his father was a very powerful businessman, and he intervened and arranged to have him transferred to a psychiatric hospital in Tokyo. In Tokyo, and so he was transferred and he was only in there a few months before they again, I suppose with the father's intervention, he was released from there. So I think he was only actually incarcerated for two years after this
this horrific, tremendous murder. So yeah, and then when he was set three, he then became joining the time in the hospital, he wrote about his experience, and this went back to Japan and people started declaring that he was he was a very rare artist, that he actually lived with a celebrity. And once he came out, he went on television and he was presented as being something extremely unusual,
who'd done something astonishing. He'd actually on his artistic impulses because he said he wanted to absorb this woman and it was the purest form of love and that and that he would. He would. Even though he now says he's cured and he's not accountable anymore, he still says that he would. He would still like to actually eat somebody else who agreed to it, or beaten himself by some beautiful Western woman.
And the thing that's so disturbing is.
That we look at this, we're growing horror and with our mouths dropping over in amazement. And yet, of course, only a couple of years ago, and in Germany we had the case of the German, the German chap who wanted to calibalize somebody and advertised on the internet. Do you remember that case?
Yes, And he found someone, and he found someone and they mutually agreed because besides.
His body and they they agreed to be killed. He even wrote an a piece of paper absolving in from any any guilt, and so you do think, well, the Internet is obviously opened near doors the people of the most extreme decavity. And and he gave a problem to Germany to try this. This guy he was called I don't know, I don't know to pronounced my way, I'm in my ways. And they didn't really because they could be charged with murder when actually personally agreed to be murdered. Yes,
it was an extraordinary case. And so when you when gals might have a dream to be eaten myself, you think, well, actually, presumably some people who do, because this is the case. But yes, it's extraordinary because he's still a celebrities, is what he writes about it. He even did an eating out column for a magazine, one to burn my page in a magazine.
And barbecue recipes.
Unbelievable, that's right, barbecue recipes.
It's just I just find it so mutable that this would happen. But I suppose also the other thing is that I also thought it's very concerning that the advent of the Internet has meant that the sort of people who would once have helped them else to be outsiders and they would mirse their interests guiltfully to themselves. They now sign out there other people like that out there and in a way that makes them feel normal. That's my biggest concern about the Internet.
Well, the thing is too before the advent of the Internet, of the popular of the Internet, there was serial killers that met up with other serial killers of the same mindset, and then United Forces. So I hate to see the new development given another twenty years. But we only have a few minutes left more, and I would like to talk about a completely opposite thing, a completely different subject
that you've been involved with for quite a while. You can tell us a little bit more about this French party house experience sounds very interesting, yes, and you also yes, and also your company has been the services that you provide have been included in the top one hundred, one hundred vacations to Enrich your Life, and so tell us a little bit about French house party please, oh.
Right, thank you. Yes, the one hundred best worldwide vacations to enrich your life. We're in by cam Graud. It's a book that's connected with the National Group of Geographic Yes, we do short break holidays in a house, beautiful house in France. It's got eight bedrooms and swimming pool and tennis court. We do all inclusive holidays. We do creative writing. We have been Freedom and Coming to do a songwriting seminar forwards in the summer. And we do books and
art and digital movie making. And we've also launched our Gastro Acabiny this year for various options for food and wine with some top chefs from the area who run very top restaurants in Carcasson. It's neck Carcasson in the south of France. So yes, it's rather different. It's a lot lighter than what we've been talking.
About, certainly, certainly. Now, this book, Cannibal Killers came out in ninety three, really it was I correct with that.
Yes, that's great edition. It has been published in lots of different countries including Japan and my dad and I think it's fourth forth edition in America. We're just just a new new versions in publishing England in paperback with my original publishers, and then I think it's reasually available in the States. It's yes, it's it's continued successfully. Yes, and I do have been I've also been told that it does appear on a lot of criminology degree lists, so that's quite a debus honor.
Yes, well, it's definitely, it's definitely would be used as a resource because I know that it's it's written from a perspective that you don't see, and it's laid out very very carefully, yet very very ny. It's a compelling book. Now, now, for those that are interested in your French house party experience, maybe you can give us the website for your company.
Oh, thank you, Yes, it would be www dot French house Party dot co dot UK. Sounds great, a French house party. The way it's written with means two h's right in the middle. You should come out.
Yeah, it sounds good, it sounds great. I get away from all this. I've been involved in some stuff myself in the last little while. And yeah, you need something too, you need something as a break. Definitely from that. I want to thank you. I want to thank you very much Mora for a very very entertaining and informative program for our audience. You've been listening to Maura Martin Gale. Her book is called Cannibal Killers. It's an incredible book.
You can find it everywhere Saint Art's Press. I want to thank you Mara, and have yourself a very good evening and thank you very much once again.
Thank you. I've enjoyed it.
Thank you, thank you. Have a good day.
Bye bye, thank you bye.
Even listening to a program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Good day. H