BURL BARER RETROSPECTIVE-Burl Barer

were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So sign up now at Chumbuckcasino dot com to claim you're free. Welcome bonus. That's Chumbu Casino dot com. And lived Chumba Landeburgs necessary dwod wherever if I lost terms of an eating black blot to radio.

nine truly important true crime books in two thousand. Murder in the Family was published in two thousand and four, Broken Doll in two thousand and eight, Mom Said Kill in twenty eleven, Fatal Beauty in twenty twelve, Body Count and also Headshot were published Man Overboard in twenty fourteen, and with co author Frank C. Girardo Junior, A Taste for Murder was published in two thousand and sixteen, as was Betrayal in Blue. A short story the Alaska mailbomb

Conspiracy was also published in twenty sixteen. In this Burl Bear retrospective, we will discuss how his true crime writing career began, his very first case in book, the murder cases that shaped his career, and his incredible personal experiences with psychopaths and serial killer writing. These now nine true crime classics. The episode tonight is Burl Bear Retrospective with my special guest, investigative journalist and author and podcaster extraordinaire,

the legendary Burl Bear. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this program.

to be humorous. It's supposed to. My theory was its investigating the true crime discovery with all the rules. There's very very harsh rules at that time in the true crime genre, and so I decided I break them all. I talk, I break the fourth wall. I talked to the characters, I talked to the audience, the reader. I do everything you're not supposed to do. But at the same time, I have very strong journalistic ethics, very strong

professional underpinnings. As I was professional journalist. It was kind of a literary experiment. It certainly did in terms of reviews and critical acclaim much better than I ever imagined. He did not do in sales as good as I hoped, but in terms of respect, it's guarded me a great deal of that, especially from the great Jack Olsen, who was probably the best true crime writer I ever encountered, and he actually sought me out and came and talked to me and told me, how much do you like

the book? We formed a friendship over that, which of course for the lasting impact on me. So it was at what they call the ABA, the American Booksellers Association has their annual conference, and the publisher man Overboard, had a big display for the book. The woman walks up to me and has me because he says, I am

a new agent. I'm Charlotte Dale. Breese and I said, well, pleasure to miss you, miss and a man whatever eventually contacts me and says, Kensington Publishing is looking for an author to write a book about a true crime case in Alaska. And I had one question. I said, is there a check attached? And he said yes, there is, and I said, well, I'm obviously the man for the job. Well, it turned out that the fellow who brought the case to Kensington was an Anchorage police formerged police officer, so

he had kind of the inside track on him. But he wasn't an AUF. He wasn't a writer. They wanted the writer. She knew him and knew me and said, here's your guy. Well, I guess they agreed. They signed me to a contract and I did the book. I hadn't done one before. They told me it had to be one hundred thousand words exactly and had to be

delivered in full on exactly this particular date. Well, coming from a background in radio, if they tell you your Elvis Presley Special has to be fifty nine minutes and thirty seconds and it goes on the air Wednesday the twelfth, it can't be delayed until Thursday, and it can't be forty eight minutes long. Everything has to be exact, and so that's ex altum. On that date of due date they received by a federal express a manuscript was exactly

one hundred thousand words to the letter law. And I get this stumpback from this fabulous editor I had there, Karen Haws. She says, this is the first time I have ever received a manuscript on the exact due date that was exactly one hundred thousand words. Beltcheck, grammar check. You know it needed a line at it because I'm not perfect, of course, But since she hadn't seen that before,

I thought everybody did that. The book is either. I tried to use a lot of action in it, a lot of adverbs and a lot of verbs to give a feeling of forward motion. And I think if you notice at the beginning of the book, that's what kicks off, you know, for so and so the nightmare began on such and such, and I use a lot of forward moving words to try to drag you kicking and screaming

to the first part of the book. And when it gets to the trial, either you're going to slog your way through that or you're not, or you're gonna skip it. I've noticed, I've learned that a lot of true fans don't like trials. They're done interested in that. I find them fascinating, in fact, too fascinating. But we're getting that when we talk about a Headshot, which is essentially a book about that.

working on a private Eye novel at that time. I said I would write one of those and make myself the hero, because, as you and I both realized, no one else is going to make me the hero of a private Eye novel, So if I was going to be the case, I had to write it myself. The title of that one is Headlock, which sounds awful lot like Headshot, but it's a totally different book from a different publisher, where I'm the hero of this private Eye novel.

While I am writing that novel, I am friends with a great journalist and brilliant fellow named Travis we who appears in the book. As there's a lot of real people in the book. It's a vocal fiction with real people in it. And we did this book and I got great reviews in low sales, and this is typical for a mention of my material. And then he comes to me and says, you know, my uncle Andrew Webb

is in prison for murder. And I said, oh, really, that's fascinating because where I happened to be right where the prisoners. We were in Walla Walla, Washington, where the Washington State prisoners. And because yeah, it's a really a strange story. My mom has every article and all of this and all of that. Sure enough she did. And I looked at this story and I went, this is

really crazy. I mean, this is an insane story. And then when I started looking at the trials and the legal stuff that went on, it was every bit as insane as the people in the crimes and just as bizarre. I've never seen it. Well, I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I'd find plenty of prostitutorial misconduct. But the

prosecutorial misconduct this case was so severe. You had judges standing up from behind their desk and their robes and screaming this case is giving me etc. Headache number eight hundred and fifty three and I can't take it anymore, and storming out of the courtroom. I mean, they were just fed up. So there's like three trials, so what two mistrials, three appeals to the State Supreme Court. Sentencing

documents went missing. After the book was written, I was contacted by Christopher Saint Pierre's attorney saying that Christopher, who should have been out by it by then, was still in prison. Well why is he still in prison? He should have been out, you know, a couple of years ago. And he said, well, he was sentenced to service sentence consecutive. We call it concurrently, but there prisons trying to say yes to service consecutively, which would be built there forever.

I said no, no, no, no, no. He said, well, do you have the sentencing documents? I said, well, it was covered by the Prospect front page article on the paper. It's no secret what his sentencing was. He said, well, where's the actual sentencing document, stamped by the state, signed by the judge. You must have it because we can't find it. And I had a copy of absolutely everything later the case. The State of Washington had never seen anyone get as much material from them as I did

in writing that book. They couldn't believe it. I had to write a van to take all the stuff from the State Supreme Court library or warehouse whatever. It was so much material, and no one could find the sentence documents. And I went through there. No, it's missing from here, missing from everywhere. And that's not a coincidence, that's intentional. And so then they said, well, was there anywhere else you can find it? Well, of course I got the

newspaper articles, but they wouldn't accept that. I tried to get the videotapes, the TV station had videotape to sentencing, but a new company abought the TV station and that tape was erased, and so they would not let this guy out of prison. Despite they even brought the judge and the court reporter back into a courtroom and had them testify as to what the original sentencing was, and the Department of Corrections would not accept that either, and

they kept the guy in prison. The only reason they let him out is he got I believe, multiple clerosis, and they let him out because he was so ill. And he was the one so he had had the least to do with any crime. He's the one who went to the police and said, my brother, and Andrew Webb killed these people and I can't you know, like his KK my mouth said about it. And the prosecutor, in one of his great brilliant moves, said to the press,

the first one through the door gets the deal. Well, the first one through the door was Andrew Webb, the most guilty of them all, and he made a deal with the prosecutor in return for their not being a death penalty, in return for their for him by getting the ability to be paroled, so he didn't get life without parole. He got life with possibility of parole. He would testify against Christopher Saint Pierre at Paul Saint Pierre and implicate them in the murder of these two people.

Then he got upon the stand. He didn't do it, he said, no, actually they didn't. I'm totally responsible. I take full responsibility. I'm the one who slipped the throat of Damon Wells. And that's what the trial was about, that particular murder. And he says, and they had nothing to do with it. They were there, they were shocked, but they did not kill the kid or know I was going to kill him. Well, of course the prosecutor

was outraged because he'd already signed the deal. It was already a done deal, and so he tricked the prosecutor and he actually told the truth when he got up on the stand, and the truth was that the other two guys had nothing to do with the murder of Damon Wells. He was the only one responsible. But even though Christopher Saint Pierre was found guilty of that and then it was overturned, but he was found guilty of the second murder. I mean, it's just a mess, total mess.

But it was a difficult book. To write to work went into that one, and people whither found it absolutely horrifying to read. And I'll tell you the pictures are shocking you. I didn't pick them. Usually i'll pick the photographs of the book. I sent them all in and said someone else is gonna have to pick them. I don't know what was going on with me at the time, but I wasn't available to be helpful in that, and

the regular person just wasn't there. And so there are pictures in there that are so disturbing that I got to warn you. Yeah, I mean, you see pictures of the decomposed body of Damon Wells, and you know, this really horrible stuff, more than I would want to see. So that's the story on that one. And both the books came out at the same time. A Headshot, which is the true crime book about Andrew Webb in the same peers, and Headlock, which is the private eye novel

with me is the hero and feature Travis Webb. All I both come at the same time. Some people, including myself, off and get the titles of the two most confused. Although head Shot sold much better than Headlock. Although Headlock is available in a new edition with a fancy do cover from Wild Blue Press.

disturbing and unforgettable story. Broken Dolls horror fi.

is is that as awful as the crime is. This Richard Matthew Clark is in that classification of what they call situation child molesters, and they are, according to all research, the easiest people to treat. He never received any treatment, never received any counseling after the first time he ever

did something that was questionable. All they did was lock them up in itself as an Homes County jail for twelve months and then let him out and had he and I talked to a situational child molestation experts and they all said the same thing, and that was, Hey, we could have fixed that guy in those twelve months if we would have had therapy to Those are the easiest people to treat, because it's not about any sort of sexual obsession, you know, in their mind, it is

a feeling of extreme powerlessness, and they pick on someone who has no power. It's kind of like a bully, except extreme and his people who been extremely as what they had done to them pretty much what they're going to do to somebody else. Trying to do a role reversal, and when they're feeling extremely powerless, that's the only way. But they're not aware of what they're doing. It's not a conscious thing. But once you're made consciously aware, you know,

it kind of breaks the psycho for some reason. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but these people are the ones that are treatable, as opposed to she always say a pedophile who acts on their pedophilia. Most pedophiles never do act on their pedophilia, even afraid to go get help for it because it has such a bad reputations, or just stays. They don't get help and they don't get better, but at least

they don't do anything bad. The situational child molestors can be treated, which would be a great bless in the society because they wouldn't do things like which advands the collected. And once you get past a certain point, you know, then everybody suffers. And he suffered all of his life, and then the family of Roxandele had to suffer. So it was just tragic all the way around. The family

lived very close to me. I was living in Munchaele Teel, Washington, which is right by Everett, and in fact her father who actually lived Matterress a few blocks from me, so it was very easy to stop buying chat with him, and he's got his daughter's face tattooed on his chest,

his arm or whatever. It's just and the detective Herndon, the guy who's got solved the case, who's the youngest fellow ever to become lead detective in ever Washington, and solved the case and was almost immediately devoted back to a driving and beat the cop car for no known reasons. It's peculiar everything. This is one of those I mean, you write through crime books. I was worn by Garry Sea King when we were actually we were in a bus at the UH. This would be aboucher card. When

after that Overboord came out. I was just about to do murdering the family, and I was chatting with him, and of course he already we've been doing for growing for a while, and I told him. He says, well, that piece of advice for your brother. He says, be prepared to cry a lot. He says, it's going to be very emotionally draining. He says, you know you can wind up being hard, you know, cynical whatever, But he says most of us writer types or types send to

be rather mostly sensitive. He says, so be prepared to cry with the family, to be haunted by the images you see, you know, and I can't with murdering the family. I kept picture of Nancy's two kids, their school pictures, you know, Scott's taped to my computer, you know, just top computer while I wrote, so I never forgot what Whoe was writing about.

detached from these stories. You can see why. Maybe somebody could say, well, you have to be detached, you have to be unemotional, but to delve as deep as you have to in this investigation that you undertake to write these books. Yeah, you're the furthest thing from detached.

different programs. You know, there isn't quite enough of enough true crime, none of enough murders that are strange enough to make a show out of. Uh do you want? I mean if I was programming a true crime channel, I would want the same thing they want, or oxygen wants. I want stories they've got something strange to them, you know, a twists to the tale. Because smoking gun, you know, Sally comes in and shoots Joe. That doesn't make a

you know, an half hour or hour TV show. You gotta have the investigation, you gotta have something strange to it. And now, in this particular story, when Mom said kill, the twist of the tale isn't she was hard to solve because it was easy to solve. That wasn't a problem. What's so strange is the fact that the murder took place in the first place, that even happened. What I found particularly fascinating was the relationship between Barbara Ople and

her daughter Heather. Heather did whatever Mom said. That's why I called the book Mom said kill, Mom says kill you go kill. You do whatever Mom says. That was really the dynamic of the relationship. Unfortunately, the mother was no more intellectually or maturely advanced than her daughter. She was essentially one of the kids, except the very bossy one. She was the alpha child. She said she had her own to he say mental limitations. I don't mean such like, ah,

she was crazy. I mean she did actually have her does have limitations, among them being in planning this crime. But she worked on this and Dan. She really was obsessed with killing her employer, who was really a nice guy, nice to her, nice to the kids. Why why did she want to kill him? He had forty thousand dollars or something like that in his bank account. She wanted to get the money, and she forget if she killed him, she could get the money, She could steal the money.

She did not think or plan past the moment when his body hits the ground. If you're going to plan a murder, which is not a bright thing to do, but if you were, hopefully you would, if you wanted to get away with it, you would plan on what you do after you killed the person. You know, if the opening of the book it takes for murder of Frank and I talk about all the different ways to kill somebody and why you're getting get caught every time. You know, it just doesn't work. You know, you're just

not gonna be able to get away with it. She didn't even think about trying to get away with it. She just thought about doing it. So now she's got a dead body on the floor, and it never occurred to her what do I do now? She didn't run away, She just moved two blocks away down to the motel. I mean, I mean, there was just no go what do I do now? Thought? Given to the whole product, it was just going to kill him and I'll have

the money. So it was really to catch him. But it's the whole thing, is that dynamics between the mom and the kids and the little the youngest kid. Timpany had to clean up the blood and the brains, of the wall thot sorry for her. She was after the book came out, she would go into the grocery store nearby where she lived, and what book is plastered has just come out and it is in the number one position there and it's bomb said kill with her mom's picture,

you know, right there on the front. And they kind of freaked her out. So the store, much to my room. I thought the stores should have held firm and kept the book on the shelf. No, they took the book to you know, it could be easier to tell the kid, you know, don't walk over to the book department.

this case. When I got hold of Rondo, unlike most people who got her by the years, I just got bolder by writing. I said, Ronda, I want you to be able to comment on everything in this book. I want to play to her ego. You know, I'm gonna give you free reign. You can say whatever you want, you can correct it, you can, you know, contradict it everybody. I want you to have full rain on this. And she says, welcome. She says, you know, I've never been

in a mental institution. I've never had the metal problem. People trying to say I'm crazy. Can you get my metal records? I can't get him? Can you get them? Oh? I thought, I'm all right. She could in and out of mental institutions all over life, poor thing, and never had really real comprehensive, ongoing treatment. If she had met she didn't take them. And she I mean she had been diagnosed. And I kid with the phrase I used.

The book is whether they know that she's got a severe mental problem, a psychosis of some sort but not otherwise specified. It was. They could never hold her still long enough, or hold her down long enough to do a thorough enough critigue or examination of exactly what kind of psychosis she had and what was triggering it. On top of that, she was self medicating with massive amounts of methanephetamine cocaine, which wasn't exactly helping her mental state.

Adding to her paranoia, she thought there were demons in the walls that well. Her primary delusion was that her husband and knew were actually wasn't her husband's what kind of her common law husband or longtime boyfriend Jimmy, father of her child, that he and George W. Bush were having homosexual sex with clones in the cave under her house.

Right now. You think that that alone would disqualify her from stand being fit to stand trial, But they made her fit to stand trial by giving her Sarah quall or something to calm her down. And then they took her aside and said, listener on it. You can't mention the cave or the clones or the devil, because it's too dangerous if you talk about that it's too dangerous, and she took.

to see her in prison. That was a strange experience. I usually don't go see the murderers or accused the cycle paths in prison. I got enough cyclepaths walk around the streets of Los Angeles. I don't need to go see him in prison. And she's on the other side of the plexa glass. And fortunately I had quite a lot of experience in the people on psychedelics back in the sixties, who have the attention span of a goldfish. Oh look there's a castle. Oh look there's a castle.

That was kind of like dealing with Rondo. If I pissed her off. I could put her in a good mood immediately by going, oh, rond, I got to tell you how brilliant you were to say such and such right away. Her face would light up with a blazing smile and she just you know, you see her puff up like a blowfish, you know. So I could, I hate you word manipulate, but I could at least influence her mood. If I said something that made her mad, you could see it instantly, and that was kind of scary.

But I could, you know, change the channel by what I said. And I did notice how she would modify things depending on what was in the news, like you know, things changed. Oh yes, Jimmy was into that if it was something bad. You know, she always felt that he was in league with the devil. But his face was of the twenty dollar bill, except on the twenty dollar bill, his face that he was wearing a leather gag mask,

you know, s and m stuff. Wish he wasn't, of course, stay it was real peculiar talking to her, And I mean people were very concerned about her her mental state, but it wasn't It's not always easy to get someone with mental health problems and get them help and when she was first arrested, they didn't arrest her for murder. They arrested her on firearms violations. And you want to

talk about, you know, gun control. Hear this woman who has been in and out of mental institutions or mental health facilities all of her life, who is diagnosed as having psychosis, purchasing a weapon, you know, down there at the firing range, practicing on killing this guy. She's even asked the instructor, Okay, let's say I'm upstairs and this guy's coming up the stairs to see me. You know, when I'm in this room, how do I shoot him?

You know, they arrested her on firearms violation because when she filled out the paperwork, she didn't tell the truth. You didn't do a check. They don't take those forms to go check to see if you're honest or not, which is a great boon for the medal. Ell I mean dishonest. She put down false address, she put down a false personal history, and she lied on her firearm registration.

That's a crime. That's what she was arrested for. They didn't want to hurry up and do the murder charges until they already had her in custody similar to Kirby Anthony. When they arrested Kirby Anthony and por Alaska on the Newman murder homicide, if they didn't arrest him for murder, they arrested him because there was a marijuana cigarette the ashtray.

That's why they arrested him. And if I could flash back to that one just for a moment, then in addition to Kirby Anthony having killed Nancy Newman and her two little kids, he also murdered some other people. He murdered Walter Napagie, who was a transsexual in Anchorage, because he didn't know that Walter was Walter and had Walter performed moral sex on him. And then when he figured out that Walller was a guy and not a girl, who murdered him, put him in a wheelbarrow and dumbed

him in an alley. And if the cops mentioned to Kirby that he'd murdered these two little kids, didn't phase him, and they murdered the little kids, but if they mentioned Walter, Kirby would just get furious because it was upsetting, not that he killed anybody, but it's upsetting that that he'd had sex with Walder when Walder was a god. You know, they didn't killing little kids but having sex with Walder. Oh, he was furious about that. He'd also apparently killed a

twelve year old girl allegedly back in Idaho. That's why they went to Alaska to get away from that. Yeah, I had problems.

believe it. They weren't prepared for it. When I first hit the New York Times bestseller list, it was the same week we ran out of books because it sold so many so fast, they didn't have any more books to sell, so it was on its way up. The next week it would have been the top ten best sellers. It was just on the edge there. You know, it made the list, but it would have been even higher if they'd had more books to sell. They didn't drop

back down. And I don't know why. If it was a New York Times bestseller, it must have been the title, because people don't know what a book if they like a book it on till after they buy and read it. So it must have been a combination of the title and the description on the back. I guess once people read it, they recommended it to other people, got a lot of great reviews, and they look on Amazon and people say how much it bothered them to read it, but they read it anyway.

perspective of reading it. And now when you say this is my very first book, they were impressed because your writing was impressive and jack Olson giving you the accolades that he did, Like you say, jack Olson, When I first read true Crime, I read jack Olson and jack Olson yeah, absolutely, and the stories too, and you and you inherited that same ability through Pinnacle and through just where you were geographically at the time, and because of the author that you were, you were able to get

stories that resonate that are just just by the description on some of these books, you are compelled to pick up that book.

the n MIPD. And I think it's so better because we even say the introduction to that book, which I don't even talk about later, but as long as we're on the topic, we say by the introduction that this is a you know, a cop story is a male driven story. Lots of testosterone here. You know, the guys can tell you dates and times and places and cadavers, but the women of the emotional barometer, you know, what's

going on? And so we start the book story wise with the Kenyurell's wife, you know, in home alone with her and the kids and the dog, and all these policemen hiding in the books just set me crazy. Did into her house and arrested in her and she don't know what the hell is going on.

I would would read. These the women were reading and and enjoying and and not batting an eye at all the details, even at.

Well I got it better than them. And almost all the news nightly newscasts will have one little tidbit of that and something to be afraid of and then a happy story about an animal. Uh a little format uh. And so you read these stories about husbands who kill their wives, wives and kill their husbands, and some real sick ones like lovers who kill their own brothers and sisters.

You know, weird stuff. Make it off on it or got what's that one that our very flowers did about the couple that travel around on their van picking up sex slaves and kill will you know not? The second places murders. That's what it was called. Wonder where they hold? These people come from glad. I don't know them, but you know when when I started doing my podcast through Crime Uncensored with the Great U, Late Great Don Woldman, Yes, this is going to be interesting because it was on

Outlaw Radio, which is heavy, heavy, heavy male. As I said, it was like for men eighteen to twenty five with a good chance of doing twenty five to thirty. We smoke, we drink, we interrupt as the slogan, you know, so like a bunch of bozos and if I could do it, if I gonna do it. Matt allens Bur wants to do a show which just before mine, what do you want to do? Well, I just had true crime books come out, and we'll do a true crime show. And on the last Don Woldman is an attorney with me.

He was a regular mad show too, and so maybe we get men interested in true crime if we do it skew towards the male audience, joking around, being rude. You know, now people probably look at us and go, guy, what a bunch of eight? Oh these guys are? You know, because it's not so many truth crime podcasts where people are responsible professionals. We may be professionals acting you're responsible. But there was a method to our madness, and that

was to try to get guys into paging. We started well, we always off our show joking around, and then gradually as the show progresses, as a rule, it becomes more serious because his crimes are serious. But we always have that kind of joking guy sitting around in a bar approach, because that's how the show began and that's why the show actually does take place. Get a bar in Matt

Allen's backyard with the light and applause. It looks exactly like a you know, eighteen seventy six Staventa style bar saloon complete with swinging doors and real alcohol which I don't indulge in.

obsessively researched vitamin for women. Rituals Essentials have the nutrients most of us don't get enough of from food, all in their clean absorbable forms, no shady additives or ingredients that can do more harm to your body than good. Two easy to take capsules provide nine nutrients you need to support a strong foundation for your health. My wife Lisa decided to take Ritual. She liked how much research

Ritual had put in to create their vitamins. She's taken them for about a month so far and she feels great. She feels she's well covered nutrient wise, and really appreciate you can take them without a meal. Ritual Essential for Women is the multivitamin reimagine from D three to Omega three. Ritual's Essential for Women helps fill gaps in a woman's diet.

There no nausea, capsule design is gentle on an empty stomach, and there's a mint tab in every bottle to keep things fresh so you don't get that fishy aftertaste common with most Omega threes. Better health doesn't happen overnight, and right now, Ritual is offering my listeners ten percent off during their first three months. Fill in the gaps in your diet with Essential for Women, a small step that helps support a healthy foundation for your body. Visit ritual

dot com slash murder to start your ritual today. That's ten percent off during your first three months at ritual dot com slash murder.

you know. Uh, And sometimes it's it's difficult as well. I mean, I remember when Mike Taylor Hamilton, the chief executive editor of Kensington and Pinnacle True Crime, called me up when I was writing the one was Rond the Glover Fatal Beauty. Yeah, and I was having a horrible time with that one. I thought that was going to be the easiest one to write. It was the most difficult. And she said, you're drowning in this manuscript dunchet. I said, I sure am, she says, and she told me what

the mistake was, what I had done wrong. I had read the reviews on Amazon or my other books. She always warned me not to do that, says, don't read the reviews. And I read the reviews because you always remember the bad ones. And the bad ones the ones that don't like my books are the ones that I don't know why they buy them. They don't like them, But are the ones that don't like trials. They don't

like the legal process. And the only say that stupid thing, Oh, he just put in a bunch of trial transcripts, which no author does that. It just shows up ignorant they are. As One of the hardest things for true come mother to do is to take something from a trial transcript and modify it and use it. And structurists who can actually be used in the book. There's no such thing as as taking til transcripts and putting you in the book for filler. No, it kisses me off when they

say that anyway. So I was purposely avoiding anything they had to do with the legal procedures because I had so many complaints on people who don't like my books about that. She said, there's a piece of advice. Remember this. You write books for people who like your books, not those who don't. Duh yea. I went, oh, okay, I'll write it for people who like my books, and that

helped with BodyCount. There was no legal stuff. Everything was sealed, everything was no The only legal stuff was the the disagreements or the ripoff between Spokane or Stephens County I guess and Pierce County is they had a deal. There were originally then taking the death penalty off the table if he would reveal where the bodies were buried, this sort of thing, and then Pierce County pulled out of

the deal and sentenced him to death. But the judge Rightley rule, he had already been sentenced to five hundred and some years in prison, so after he served the five hundred some years, then you can kill him. So that worked out well. He is a model prisoner because he was very good in the military, so they never have any problems with him. The model prisoner is just fine.

And you know, I did an update on that book for the addition you mentioned doing with the stanzy cover, kind of a purple cover with a girl standing by a river or something. Uh, that's the updated edition. Oh there is an updated e book addition too. But the uh they thought originally and they had these giant billboards of his victims. Well turns out the first three or four people on that billboard weren't his victims at all.

They were the victims of another serial killer, the called the Riverside killer, and their the old method by which they were killed and all the bodies were dumped and all that stuff, which was entirely different than Robert Lee Yates. They finally we've caught the suspect. There's a DNA improved and the DNA testing improved to discover they already had that person in a custody on a weapons violation, except it was a woman who used to be a guy.

The guy had gone Taiwan and the Philippines and some place, had gender reassignment surgery and came back to Spokane as a woman. And it not killed anybody. Since I think the defense used what I didn't do what he did. We just happened to have the same body. I guess that was kind of strange, but I knew some of the victims of his Pokane serial killer. My daughter went to school with his kids. We lived in the same town more than once, and we both lived in Walla Walla, Washington.

The batter living college place with the suburb. Worked at the prison. Interesting in the illustrations, he worked at Washington State Penitentiary as a corrections officer. And they take the pictures of the employees the same place to take the pictures of the prisoners. And so you see his picture, don't say you know Robert le Yates corrections officer. Next to that, I put the picture of Robert Lee Yate's prisoner. He used to be a corrections officer the penitentiary. Now he's a prisoner.

And that's the thing, is the only time I've ever heard of people going, oh, that guy's a serial killer was my daughter and her friend was standing in line to see interview with a vampire. And the standing in line and the guy behind him was the Green Killer, and they're going, dude, guy's creepy, but he's a greed River killer.

at thirty thousand feet. So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to claim you're free welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com and live the Chumba Lante No for necessary drood where if I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus. Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you know this about me, but I'm a bit of a fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but I like fun too. It's a thing. And now the truth is out there, I can tell you about

my favorite place to have fun, Chumbuck Casino. They have hundreds of social casino style games to choose from, with new games released each week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere, and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses. So join me and the fun. Sign up now at chumba casino dot com.

could always know where. I could go talk to this guy and the prosecute his office, and I could talk to this cop. And you know, because I lived there. And so I was like, you know, homeboy. When I came down in the southern California, I'm not in that position anymore. I didn't know anybody, and I don't have those contacts and go to those relationships. But I'd had this uh, uh friend Gerardo on my show, uh, talking about his book about this the fake Rockefeller guy, and uh,

because I was really impressed. Uh. The guy's a brilliant journalist who won lots of awards, a great personality and knows everybody because he's been here. I mean even I editor in the pasting to start news. You know, the guy's connected, and the guy knows that A right great writer, and so uh, it's time for me to write another book and going wow. I called them Frank and I said I I'm bro Beart. You remember, of course knew

who I was, and so you want to do a book? Uh, he goes, yeah, sure so uh so we we did start doing some stuff together. And uh even some of the stuff we did which isn't necessarily very good, like the short, little, quick and dirties we did. Uh uh, this is really gonna upset somebody. We did a quick and dirty little booklet on the uh main wing of Williams murder, where she murders her husband and her and her kids. She chops him up with a samurai swords and sat down and wrote him a suicide note. No,

we's gonna buy that. Uh you know what's start of following focus. It's real short, you know, but he was one of the first people on the scene. He was on the scene before the cops were. Frank was. So we wrote that up and we made more money and that say itself for like a buck, right, because it's a little booklet. We made more money off of that than any other in an entire year than we did have any other true crime book in my catalog. It

doesn't have that good reviews, you know. I mean, that's some good reviews, but that's where we made our money. Very strange, but because it was on uh, Deadly Sins, Yeah, Manly Williams, Deadly Sins, and which I was on, you know, with Darren Cavanoak, one of our friends, a great guy. Originally that was going to be a book that Darren and I were going to do, and it didn't go through go through as a book, so he turned into a TV series and it's been nice enough to have

me on every a couple of times every year. But so I got old the Frank and he found that case that we did for a Taste for a Taste for Murder, and he had all the contacts and everything, and the way he explains how we worked, I thought it was pretty clever. We did an event at the Pasadena Library and a lot of people showed up and he sold some books and he answered all sorts of questions and he says, you know, he's also a musician, plays guitar. He says, it's like being in a band.

He says that do an album. He says, he goes in like he's the rhythm section. He lays down the bass and drums, and then I come in and I do lead guitar right, And I mean we've done two full length books together and we've never written in the same room. We've never been in the same place at the same time. I'll write what I write and send it to him and he'll make a couple of notes suggestions, send it back and they'll do the same. We just

go back and forth with not sitting right together. We just kind of he writes his stuff, I write mine, and why he is he's mine. I make a couple of notes, he makes a couple of notes, and that's how we do it.

was lots of rules to true crime. One of them is he had to come into one hundred thousand words if the story only took sixty two thousand to tell. It just makes any difference you still hat to cover over with one hundred thousand words. Also, he had to stick to the facts. He could could yac yack at the audience. You know, you couldn't have had to be

just like Joe Friday. Just the facts, ma'am. Yeah, Well, we decided listen, if we were sitting with our friends, if we were sitting with Dan Zebanski, and we're gonna tell Dana's story, you know, whether he's leading him back in a chair, sits on the edge of his seat. He likes hearing true crime stories, and we're gonna tell him one, and we're gonna tell him one to have him entertained and amused and aggravated and everything else. But

we're gonna tell it the way we tell it. Someone else may tell it differently, but it is the way we tell it, and we just assume he's gonna like it because he likes stories and we like telling stories. And that's how we approached it. And you know, of all the compliments we got on the book, that's the biggest compliment we got the way it's written, the style, because we wrote it just as if we were sitting

here with you telling you the story. Yeah, and people appreciated that, and we work absolutely that is one more word than it took to tell the story. We just got to tell the story the way we tell the story, and that's it, and that's exactly.

we resolve these problems. How do you know, UH, what is the why and the where for of this?

I was shocked to hear that. I didn't know there was a time you usually stop having sex with your grandkids. I didn't know there was a time when you started. I mean, that just blew my mind. But I went and looked it up. You know, I had to do all scholarly research on multigenerational incests. And yes, there is a typical time that it starts, at a typical time that it ends. If you're going to do it three years.

After three years of having sex with your grandkids, you usually stop and go on to a new grand kids. But Grandpa didn't stop with her. Grandpa kept it up all the way until she was eighteen and she had two abortions from being pregnant with Grandpa's kids when she

was in high school. So there you go. But we had to do a lot of research and some of the research and you learn things when you do research like this that when you learn it seems so obvious you wonder why didn't that ever cross my mind before. For example, if a kid, a little kid sexually molested, you feel real sorry for him. Say the kids sexually molests, he's thirteen, fourteen, fifteen or she or he either won, but once in about sixteen seventy, you know, she self

feels self feeling sorry for him. And the real problem is is that sex feels good, which means psychologically or mentally maybe going no no, no no, but your body's going yes, yes, yes yes. And one of the biggest problems the victims of sexual abuse face is that as bad as it was, they enjoyed it physically, and the guilt and shame that they have for feeling what is perfectly natural to feel in a physical SA situation is

horrifying and really screws them up. That's why there are only and I know you got we got total the time left. Tell me there are two responses to to be a sexual violation or brother sister incests, or father daughter and sister, grandfather child incests. Either you become as cold as winter and anchorage and sexless, or you become what appears to be incredibly promiscuous and have just tons of sex for those sorts of people. I think, well, what that sounds strange? Why would that be? Didn't occur

to me either until I read the research. It's very simple. And I talked to this one woman who she had everybody in her family was poking the poor girl, her father, her uncle's, her cousins, everybody. She says. Being a sex worker, she says, she gets to decide who does what, nobody else. She's the one who says yes or no, nobody else.

She is in control of her body, her sexual life, not anybody else, so that every time she says yes, it's her decision, not somebody else's, and it's her reclaiming of her own body and her own sexuality, not being controlled by somebody else. That had occurred to me, you know, maybe it occurs to everybody else. That had can cross my mind. But all the research says, yep, that's what

that's about. And there's no middle ground. It's like, if you're a victim of racial or religious prejudice, or if people pick on you for being Canadian, only h only two possible responses. Either you're going to become just like the people who pick on you, be just as prejudice against others, or you're going to be a champion of acceptance and inclusion. No middle ground, and there's no if you know, either you're going to be just as prejudice as they were, or you're going to be a champion

of inclusion. And that's the way it is. And you know, for some reason, my brain just clicked into the channel of how important it is in any country in Canada, the United States, any country in terms of its civilization and functionality, functionality to have a well informed population, a well educated, well informed population, and a well informed electric.

One of the great tools to destroy a civilization or to manipulate is to have an ill informed or misinformed or uninformed population, what they call the low information voter. The people are ignorant, they'll just fall for just about anything. And there's always been kind of a general plan in the United States, which I found rather shocking considering down here. It was always said it was the taper ships on the backbone of America. Is a well informed electorate is

the backbone of a democracy. Well, a lot of effort have been put into not having a well informed electorate. Because they're well informed, You've got some real problems. They're going to see right through your bs. You know, Now, what do you do? Uh So, a lot of the mocking of the well educated, all those ivory tailer intellectuals, although, you know, putting down the well educated, mocking them. I can remember we had a guy running from president back

in the United States years ago, Headlight Stevenson. I was a kid at the time, but I remember what people complained about him was he was too smart, he was too well educated. Yeah, yeah, a kind falls into the same category here with you know, I'm glad people are still learning to read so they can buy our books.

incredible collaboration between you. But it also demonstrates the ability for you to get a journalist and author of Frank Girardo's stature to co author, but also to be able to get And I think this is an important part of all the books that you have, is that the respect you have as a journalist, and this is evident when you get to talk to this Kenny Urrel and

he gives you the information. It's on Netflix. But the book that you have, Betrayal in Blue, really gets to the character of this Kenny Urrel and to tell the truth about the NYPD. I think this is where you, with True Crime Uncensored, had stuff that nobody else had, stuff like this bad cops finally opening their mouth and

telling the truth. This is a powerful book, Betrayal and Blue, but it also again indicates and demonstrates the ability for you to have that respect for people to say, yes, I will tell burrobar I will let.

with the reporters, they won't shall with the attorneys. But for some reason they will tell Burrol Beert, and thank god they do. And there's some other people that would have the same thing. Susan Murphy Milano had the same and it was blessed with the same gift. People would talk to her. I don't know why it is, but I'm happy about it.

as the culture shock. But I could transition between all levels levels of not all, but say most levels of American culture very fairly easily. Although I may appear out of place. I can tell you a strange story. I wound up one night in a particular location of people that you would not necessarily feel are percent comfortable around, and the TV was on and it was who Wants

to Be a Millionaire? And I'm watching that while there's other things going on in the house, and there's other woman say she's gonna watched it too, And it just happened to be by sheer coincidence. I happen to know they answered every question they asked, and so they're going on and I go, D, C, A, whatever, while there's other bizarre crinal behaviors aating place. And we get all done and anyone lady looks at me, he says, what

the hell are you doing here? Any One who could add just what have you been sitting that, sure, you'd be a millionaire. Now what the hell are you doing sitting in this room for criminals? And I said, that's a good question. I can't really tell you, but I mean I was perfectly comfortable. I hadn't been so willing to play the game that was on TV, they probably wouldn't have been so suspicious of me like I had Lie Stevens in the room.

than psychopathic killer. Regardless of what the court has determined and the prosecution wants to put forward at a trial, well you'll preservative books.

all sorts of assumptions that are just absurd. It's like listen to conservatives and liberals talk about each other and neither one knows what they're talking about, making all sorts of assumptions that just to the product of someone's bizarre imagination or assumptions. Know, that's not how those people think. No, that's not what they're up to, you know. But I

can think like a criminal real easy. It's not difficult for me to have a criminal mind, and I'm not out to catch anybody, and I could keep a seat good as well as the next criminal. Oh and I guess what reason people though they're safe with me unless it's murder or child molesting. You know, that's a different story. And people have visually got the brains have to tell me. If they've killed somebody, there's no station limitations on that.

But anything else I'll tell people right up front. Hey, long as we're talking about anything from seven years ago and beyond, long as it's not murder, you could tell me anything. You know, you don't have to worry about anything. I'm talking about.

and I mean, it's just beyond the beyond. And they were afraid that I'd be just as inaccurate, just as ridiculous and offensive to them as he was. Fortunately I wasn't, but they really put me through the ringer on that book. I mean, it took me almost like a year. A year I have to get the pictures, which aren't that good anyway, from them when they had them sitting on the desk, but they wouldn't give them to me because made me wait. You know, there's also little games that

went on. But I do got to compliment the guys that helped me out on that because they were great. The homicide task Force wasn't easy, but they were so mad at Furman for what he's the way. You know, he had a radio show and he talked about him like the reason he wrote his entire book was to show that he knew more than they did. But just as the book was about to come out, they caught

the killer. And then he calls them up and goes, oh, tell me how you did it, and he said totally a trick he could do in a half number rope. They wouldn't tell him anything. Then I showed up and had to convince him that I wasn't him. So that can be a problem if you get the police bat at you. Absolutely.

It was fantastic to work with her, and the process of picking a case to do, I just said to her, I'd say, here are four different cases i'd like to do. Pick the one you want, and then she'd say, okay, how about this one. What was funny is I'd get the either of her. Michael Hamilton sent me the message one time that said, you did a lot of books about blue collar criminals. But the market has changed. Things

have gotten bad, the economy has gone to hell. So people want to read books about rich people with a lot of drugs who do stupid stuff. So that's why we did Fatal Beauty. So see if you can find some good look at people with a lot of money and a lot of drugs and a lot of sex, and preferably a wood shipper. Well I never find the woodschipper.

But you know, there's market research. Like there's a difference between a magazine and the newspaper USA today, which looks like a newspaper, it's not a newspaper, have you ever seen it? In reality, it's a magazine because the magazine they find out what you want to read and then they print it. Newspaper just prints whatever the news is.

Magazines print what you want to read, and same thing research instead of what kind of true with clime books you want to read With the economy is good, you want to read about people who are lower economically life, those low lives, they're just scumbags. When the economy is bad and you're not one of those low lives, you want to read about rich people who were bad. It's

pretty simple to figure out. Everyone's always looking for someone to be better than you know, like I said on the news, there's always a little clip of someone who can feel better then, because your lives better than theirs, you know, as part of this whole sales strategy, you know, meeting that need of feeling better than somebody else. I don't don't need that myself. I just want to feel better than me, But you go ahead.

But also because of the crimes themselves, and the criminals. You know, not to go anicize or anything, but very unique in terms of now when we have the spree killer, we have the one off killer. We have the people that are in a big rush to get famous, not these other people that were so steady.

New York. And yes, they got away with it, and everyone was in on it, the security companies, the safe manufacturing companies, everybody, and the guy who planned it all got away with everything, never went to prison. He's retired or to the europe environment to go fishing with him. Incredible story and it's all true. Got that coming out, and that's gonna be three volumes out because the story is so incredible it takes three books to tell it.

The East part is an adventure under itself, and then Frank and I have one that we're starting that will boil your mind you want to. I mean, the fact that this even took place is astonishing. You have members of the Russian mafia who are going to prison, sworn in as federal agents so they can arrest people to lower their prison time. And figure, g if we could arrest somebody for murder, that will really lower our prison time.

And so the allegedly frame a retarded kid for murder to reduce their prison sentences.

we're gonna have a good time. We're doing a career of retrospective on him, so we'll teach him a lesson him and his wife. Uh, thank you very much, Frank, have a good time. Thank you very much, brou good night, good night,