BROKEN DOLL-Burl Barer

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wouldn't be so fortunate. On the night of March thirteenth, nineteen ninety five, Roxane Doll, aged seven, was abducted from the bedroom she shared with her younger sister. It was not until the following day that her mother discovered Roxane's disappearance. A week later, Roxane's raped and stabbed body was found. Evidence led investigators to a man the family had trusted

as a friend, Richard Clark. Clark was a petty criminal, jailbird, alcoholic, and drug abuser who couldn't control his pedophilic and homicidal urges. In April nineteen ninety seven, after his conviction for aggravated murder, he mocked and derided the dead girl's parents in a shocking courtroom display. Here is the brutal, heartbreaking true story of the crimes and punishment of a monster who preyed on the most vulnerable victims of all, and of the

determined prosecutor who swore to bring him to justice. The book that we're featuring this evening is Broken Doll, a parent's worst nightmare come true. With my special guest journalists and author and broadcaster, podcaster and the legendary Burl Bear. Welcome back to the PAM. Thank you very much for agreeing this interview. Legendary.

it's muckle tee O Washington. So it depends on which side of the line down the side of the road you're on, which city you're at. The time where this whole took place was no more than a matter of perhaps five to seven minutes from where I lived, well in fast to Home Roxandhl's father at the time I wrote the book lived even closer than that. Were physically within the almost walking distance of each other. Incredible.

then there's the Roxanne's home. Will pardon me Rono home, Her and her husband, Angela and her husband and the kids are out playing hide and seek, and then guys in around nine o'clock, right right.

You'll let her, let my daughter out let me goes, oh, she's not here, and then as well, I can't find the lights. I'm trying to sleep, I can't find a key. Finally he fumbles the door open. The mother runs in and grabs the kid, and what she sees is the kid's hands are tied with green socks, her pants are pulled down below her bottom, and the faces come with tears, the kids sobbing. Well, of course she is furious. You know, my god, my kid, Well you're doing He takes off running.

The two guys who are helping him look for a feather go chasing after him and cash him and aren't that plied to months to get him? She comes running over. When the cops arrive, she's there beating on his chest and screaming at him, while these two guys just sit in and watch. He doesn't do anything to protect himself from her. He's just standing there. Ytther stow it and things go down hill from there, both for him and for Feather. She's bad at me by the way.

As you write in the book, he is charged, and what is he charged for?

not gone through puberty pre pubescent. Richard Betrick Clark was not a pedophile. He was, however, with his term day situational child molester. Now situational child molesters are usually not sexually motivated, even if sex is part of the molestation. It's all about power, ironically, and this plays very importantly into the story and with what happens with roxand All, is that situational child molesters, beings that the issue is power and not sex, are actually incredibly easy to rehabilitate.

Pedophiles a different story. The most pedophiles don't do anything wrong anyway, it's very small percentage of the rest. They keep it in fantasy land. But situational child molesters usually, once they understand what's going on with themselves, go oh, that's a stupid thing for me to do to deal

with this, and that's it. People get the two of them confused, and in what we call the moral panics or whatever, they tend to assume that every child molester is the pedophiles of every pedophiles a child molester, when

neither statement is true. Unfortunately for all of us and for Richard Matthew Clark, when he was arrested and sentenced on this situation with Tether, he received one year in the Stohomish County Jail, which is located in Everard, Washington, And putting someone in jail may protect us from further behavior while they're in jail for that year, but there's absolutely nothing to rectify whatever's going on in his head that's causing him to do that, And as we have

our conversation, we'll find out more why he's so screwed up. But there was nothing, no treatment, no therapy, no talk with a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist or anything to deal with his underlying issues. So when he was released one year later, he was exactly the same as he was when he went in, except probably worse. I just want to kind of clear that up.

So she goes to live with a foster family. She lives with a foster family Julie Galo or Jalo, and received a lot of stability and structure in that home, but she still wasn't rehabilitated in any real given way, despite somebody caring for her. So during this period of time that he is in prison, but afterwards, what happens with Feather Raher.

all this in the book. But I'm sorry. You know, I'm sorry if it bothered you, Feather, But it's an integral part of the story.

nineteen ninety five. Now you fast forward to Rock sand Doll, her living arrangement with her mother Gail and her husband Tim iffrig and tell us where Richard Clark is in terms of the neighborhood before we get into what happened just before that, and the relationship that Richard had with the family, with Tim and Gail, his own family, and just this little, small, little neighborhood he seemed to be involved with in nineteen ninety five.

Childhood was absolutely horrific, as was that of his brothers and sisters. Now you can say, well, gee, a lot of people have bad childhoods and don't do what he did, and that's absolutely true, but not everyone responds to horrific situations the same way. He was an extremely sensitive child, loved his mother, despised his father, who kept him powerless at all times. His father beat him mercilessly, forced him

to eat a cigar, was surprised to kill him. His only refuge was his mother, who tragically was also an alcoholic because you know, sixty percent genetic factor there. And when his mother died in a tragic accident, all five kids were split up and sent to different places. He was sent to live with his aunt. Who is this Richard matt Ufuk's mother and or aunt whatever it is, life fate is to shady. There he goes, she takes

the child in. He goes to live with her, and he is so traumatized by his mother's death that he cannot grieve. He can't even bring himself to cry. He's emostly disassociated in lockdown. Finally with her, he's comfortable enough to break down and cry and hold on to her for comfort, at which time, get this, she pushes him away and says, I can't be your mother, I already have children. And that's when Mom tell him would say,

the walls came down all the way to help. From that moment until he went away prison forever, he never had a day that he didn't numb himself with alcohol and drugs. And it was never a day when he didn't feel completely powerless, abandoned and alone except for those few moments where he could have power over some situation. And he had become a friend was you know when

he appeared to be a nice enough fellow. And as proof he wasn't a pedophile, he was having sex with Rock sand Doll's grandmother was actually close to his own age and these people and children young. Uh, so he was having an affair with the grandmother who was not really that ancient. Uh. And he was a sit around and uh, drink maybe and get hye buddy with with

Tim Iffrit he's a friend of the family. Plus the fact that he's sleeping with the grandmother, and so he was kind to Roxanne, you know, uh in general, like groomyer or something, and so that was kind of a relationship. It kind of hung out there. The night of the incident, he was there reacting with Tim, and the mother took the grandmother into towns because she wanted to go into town,

which wasn't all that far. Uh. And then Dan, I'm going to tell you something that I don't think he can think is in the book unless it's in the afterward. My comments is that Richard Matthew clark On my investigation, did absolutely everything possible to keep himself from doing what

he did. He apparently could tell, like what someone could tell when he's going to have a seizure or something, he apparently could tell what he wanted to do the seven year old Roxandal, who already was in bed at home, and so he did everything he could to not go back alone. He even went to the grandmother who had just brought into town and essentially begged her to go back go back with him. He says, no, I just

got here. That's what he does everything to find someone to go with him to keep him from doing it. He even goes out to the nearby Indian reservation. He picks up a friend of his and makes him to go with him back to the Dollart freak House. And I think, but he Jimmy says okay. However, Jimmy is drinking and by the time they get to the Dollar freg House, Jimmy has passed out cold and Matthew Clark is all by himself. And that's one of things go from bad to horrific.

when he went in. Ironically, I spoke at length to an expert on a young sexual molesters power motivated child molesters, and he looked over the case and he shook his head and said, if we could have got this kid into therapy, this never would have happened. If they would have spent a year working with him psychologically. Chances are Rock Sandol will still be alive instead of just putting him in a cell for year, quarantining the virus but not racing it.

brother and Roxanne watching Cinderella, a Disney movie. Later, Tim had worked all day. He was a hard working guy. There was talk about him passing out on the couch and then rich Right, So let's let's go into sort of the events you talk about him. He did everything in his power to avoid this altercation that he knew that would happen with Roxanne Doll. But the prosecution paints a completely different picture. So let's talk you about what they what they portray, Well, what.

but it's just so tragic though, the whole thing. Uh. He and uh Tim frigg Doll planned on going camping together the next day, along with some other folks, and he'd been over there, you don't, hanging out drinking coffee, smoking cigarettes. Two of them took the grandma into town. Uh. Tim goes to cook something to eat, falls asleep on the couch to house the smoke, and wife comes home, as you didn't kill him from making such a mess

and sticking the house up. Uh you know, back you say he was a hard working guy, he was pretty tired. He knew he was gonna up at the mongardly hour of the morning to go camping with Richard Clark and these other people. And this is what's just so tragically ironic, as you know, where is the guy who you know stole our daughter. He's out camping with the father. I mean,

it's just so twisted, you know. Yeah, he comes back with Jimmy passed out of Leveya and he takes the kid out the bedroom window and that's it for that poor child, violated, murdered, body dumped. Interesting in the book itself, there is a most horrifying photograph of little Rock Sands dead body, Yeah, partially decomposed. And so I say, how could you put such a horrifying, off putting, nightmare reducing photograph in your book? And that was the insistence of

her parents. Wo Her parents wanted that horrifying picture of their daughter in the book. They provided the picture. They wanted people to know what was done to their daughter, which is entirely opposite of how most people are when I'm talking to them about a book, that they don't want people to see what happened to their they kid, you know, But in this particular situation, the parents wanted that everything know everything showed them you about.

was a real monkey in this case. Monkey wrench in this case, in that when they discovered that Roxanne is gone in the morning, just after the men have gone camping, and when the little boy little brother advises the mother that Roxy's not here, that she claims to the police that come to question her that when she came back from the movies, she checked on her daughter and saw

her in bed at just after twelve. Well, tell us what proceeds with Richard Clark and the questioning of the parents and what unfolds quickly as to whom I be the perpetrator here.

couldn't have been him. It was a defensive post, if I remember correctly. It was. I thought was a peculiar tack to take. But one thing about writing through crime books, as you well know, is when you're looking at a situation with fresh eyes and you're not in the middle of it, you will notice things that other people don't notice, or see things that other people don't see. And I think that was the situation this case. I would have

gone if I had been a defense attorney. H I guess you guy, I guess you do with you you try to show that he couldn't have done it, that he wasn't there at the timeline is so fit well they did. It was just a peculiar tack to take. They Uh so it didn't go for mitigation, you know, at the end of things. But I mean, the whole thing is so horrifyingly tragic. There is not a pleasant

note in this entire story. Uh, in anybody's life. It's uh was one reason I was compelled to write this story is not because it was horrific and sensational, but because of the multi levels of multi generational tragedy involved. It's just so that gives the word tragic. But I can't think he goes a writer. I can't seem to find a different word of Richard Matthews Clark's life was horrific, tragic,

emotionally shut down and gets worse every day. This horrible thing perpetrated on the dull, effering family is something that no one is ever going to totally recover from. You can't recover from the loss of your own child easily in any way ever, and so that that pain is always with you and whatever people you know can take hope in or whatever, but it still has to cross the mind of that poor child what she had to endure at the hands of the man that she thought

was a family friend. All I'm seven years of age. And if it was just the story of hey, this guy can mothers a little girl and finally catch him a center to prison, that's one thing, But then that's kind of like porno, you know, which can be entertaining, but it does exactly have a you know, an ethical boil after the lesson anywhere along the line an coore to get to is my mentor. Jack Olsen told me there is any true crime story that doesn't get into the why and the how, not how I feel what

time did he show up? But what are the factors that led to this situation? How can we learn from this? And it's always been my goal. I mentioned this in

virtually every true clime book that I write. Is my purpose is to elevate the victim's death to the level of sacrifice that something in their giving it a live teaches us something to either prevent it from happening again, to alert people, how to keep it from happy to them, or what we need to do to make changes in how we deal with situations to get positive results rather than more of the same. Now I know you're in a different country, a strange forward land called Canada, which

I have visited on occasion. In the United States worldwide, the United States is famed for many things. One of them that we in these states are famed for is continually doing what doesn't work and knowing it doesn't work, but it's the most popular way of doing it, so we continue to do what doesn't work, which is very strange. It is probably some ser national psychological disorder. But this is so well known worldwide by researchers as scientists, psychologists,

social scientists. The entire articles about it on how America chooses to do over and over again what has been proven to be totally ineffective, because that's what's popular. For some reason in America, we seem to enjoy keeping people at a certain degree of lack of information and lack of active information education, so they keep doing things at art of their own best interest. Usually that's to the

benefit of someone else. Now, I could give you a contemporary example if you'd like, There was a maybe if you don't like them, go ahead and do it anyway. There was a here in California, where I live, for example, eighty four percent of the population receives or higher than that, receives their news from television, which is a very poor way to receive news, but that's where they get it anyway.

Excuse me. I actually the percentage was higher than that, but it was eighty four percent of people interviewed believed that youth crime in California was on the rise and had been on the right. She liked wherever. In truth, youth crime in California and nationwide at the time they study was at a thirty year low and been declining

every year for thirty years. And yet based on what politicians would say running for office, the way things were handled in the news is you thought that youth crime gain crime, everything was at an all time high, and people would vote accordingly, why we got to get tough on crime, We're going to take back our neighborhoods, when in reality, youth adolescents teenagers were quire more likely to

be victims of a crime than perpetrators of one. So the disconnect between reality and what was presented was striking, extremely striking. Now it doesn't take much work or effort to find out what the truth of the situation is if you want to do a little bit of research, but most people don't. They get their news from radio, TV and if it's complete nonsense and untrue. It's have been found that most of the journalists won't raise thro a hand and six shoes me a senator what's his name?

But will you just said? Isn't true? Ted Coomple. At least that ABC would let the Senator whatever give some long bs answers. He goes, Now that's absolutely fascinating, Senator. But my question was, and get back to the point. So it's America has this longstanding problem of doing what doesn't work in providing false information about it. Until that changes, I have no idea what's going to be. Not much

is going to improve. Obviously, Now I know I got off on a dad's a Pasky tangent, but I forgot I'm the title to do.

who does she think? Who do other people think? Is the likely they don't have the body?

displeasure of fighting a dead body. He's a dead body of a child or measure. These kids fighting the partially decomposed body of someone like their old age or younger. It is absolutely horrific. And there was boat chilling and that's what the kids found. If you see the picture in the book at the time, they found a child. That's something though, hual he wants to see little only kid. I don't imagine those kids are probably so traumatized by it.

And uh and of course Richard back to the clock, was a suspect from a kind of the get go, because they keep track of these kind of offenders. He had just butther than that long since he had been released from Stonholmage County Jail for his h you know, his misbehavior earlier a few years earlier, and he was you know, it's a small enough town that you see people around he was both messed up, stone drunk efficence. He was fourteen. I don't think he'd had a day

of sobriety in his life. He was always numb, numbed to whatever feelings he would have.

a sock to bind and other socks. But at the same time there's forensics, as I mentioned in the van, and then then there are witnesses to come forward to say they smelled something strange or saw some bloodstains, including cooperation from various people, but especially Tony and George Clark is not really his biological father, but anyway those people in his life, and so they cooperated with the police and had some questions for Richard Clark. What did they ask you about that evening?

cause to me for the get go uh. And of course the prosecution bringing in the uh feather here episode from years earlier to try to show a common plan or a scheme, which didn't work all that well either, as we can get to later. But it was one of those situations where you know, what kind of guy there is a guy who kid dams, rapes and murders your daughter that helps you go look for I mean, it's just so bizarre that he's outgoing camping with the father at the time that the mother and everyone else

is frantically looking for the missing child. That is so strange. It's so bizarre. It's almost like he's trying to create this alternate universe where it never happened, where they're going to come back from camping and Rockxan's going to be alive and well, and he didn't do it. They mentioned the act of the fantasy active undoing it. You know, it's almost with a desperation if I act like it never happened, it never happened.

else about these shifts and personnel. All of a sudden, this young man who never wanted to be a cop in the first place. Interestingly, now, who didn't like the police, who was a social worker, who was convinced to join the police because they had a new program of community policing and they wanted sensitive, liberal, community minded people to take those positions as police officers and deal in a

very friendly way with the public. Well, that program lasted about a year or two, and bang, it's no longer funded. And now he's a regular compound patrol being a police officer, and then he winds up being head of detectors for a minute and a half. By the time this whole thing goes to court, Herndon is no longer a detective. He's back doing patrol. He's the guy who cracks the case, who solves the case, the bad guy. And he told me, he says, you know why I got a bulletproof vest.

To the reason, cops, that the bulletproof est. The front is to protect you from the perpetrators, the crooks on the street. The back is to protect you from the other police officers. So there was the problem there, internal issues that did play on him psychologically to a great extreme. And cops are under more pressure than an astronaut anyway. It's a dangerous job, ultimately boring and terrifying, and it played out rather severely in White's case. I believe he

wanted to get out of there. He wanted to go to Iraq actually and train the Iraqi police, for which he would be paid at kings ransom, but he couldn't

get permission from They were pleased to do so. But Lloyd heard it at the time that this was taking place, and I think it's because of his background in community service and as a social worker allowed him to establish a kind of a bond or sense of trust with people that in this case, as you know, that work very well in dealing with with with everyone involved, including

Richard Matthew Clark. And it wasn't like an attack where Clark's going to it was already closed off emotionally, he's going to close off even more, but rather using reflective listening and empathy made himself less threatening to Richard. My memory serves me well.

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true murder at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. That's get fifty dollars towards select mattresses by visiting Casper dot com, slash true murder and using promo code true murder at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. When we last spoke, brol I mentioned that there was an unique ruse used by this agent Van Deerberry to try to do something and fool Richard Clark. What was that attempt and how successfull he was?

wasn't attorney, said well, your counselor is here. He thinks supposed to be legal counselor. No, it's a cop. It's another detective pretending to like he's his lawyer. Now that's got to be crooked as hell. Oh and I don't know. I mean they tried to get away with that, but that that was I've never heard of anyone pulling that

kind of stunt before. And I think I mentioned to one of the detectives involved, perhaps it was Lloyd, but I thought that was really weird, and he said, yeah, well, they thought we'd give it a shot.

So there only has to be one good reason to be able to do this, and this seem to justify that. Now with him and we talk about this trial, this obviously becomes a death penalty case and very very interesting because of your incredible coverage of all of it. All of the once you get to the when someone's trying to state it's trying to take a perpetrator's life, then we hear the background story, we hear of the childhood, and the witnesses come forward to support that in the

attempt to try to save this person's life. And then counsel that is dedicated and talented and successful at getting people not to be put to death are involved in this case. So tell us what sets up what characterizes this trial you talk about Judge Thorpe, tell us a little bit about the beginning of this trial and the sort of scenario that surrounds it media and.

the facts mitigating this crime. This was a horrifying crime, and that you have when you get to the sentencing phase and you mentioned to going to the death penalty, that this is something that has been Anything that mitigates the severity of the crime will not. They can mitigate the bank that rocks have dolls dead. And you don't have any situation where uh is that Clark doesn't pull one of these tea I don't remember what I did. I've blocked out. Uh. He doesn't ever to say anything

about that. It's I mean it's just it's blatant that he did it. There is no rational reason why except for this incredible feeling of powerlessness that he has. Uh. This is when they have to bring up what was his life like, why should we have any mercy at all? And as they said, they're not efficient mitigating circumstances to avoid the sentence of life in prison without the possibility

of parole, there are sufficient mitigating circumstances. They decided to avoid the sentence of death, although not at first, but they felt that if there was a sentence that he deserved, it would be life in prison. And excuse me, uh, but that's when they bring up the whole situation of how absolutely horrific his own life was. And of course we get that whole issuita well, gee, not everybody who has a bad childhood turns out like him, but not

everybody's the same. I think his a brother took that feel like, well, I'm not a child molester and I had the same child as he did. Well, no, you didn't. You had your childhood, you had his, he had his, And they weren't the same. Even though the physical events surrounding them were the same. They were different people. With different responses, and they say his father was cruel beyond human comprehension to all the kids, especially him, and it

was NonStop pain and misery. His only comfort was his mother, who died in a tragic the car accident, drunk as usual, and all the kids were split up and sent in different directions. And from that moment, as I mentioned, when he broke down and cried because it was pre screened for the first time and pushed away, that's when the wall came down, and he was numb and powerless and mostly deprived and depressed and everything else for the rest

of his life. And by the time he was in prison, there was watching some TV show and the woman's being and after chased or strangle or killed in these yellow ale raper first you know, I mean it was totally gone, you know Bentley's I would say, and emotionally by the time all this was over with, or even before, but that became a big issue. In fact, there was a they all had to go back to court again a few years later when again there was another dispute over

his sentencing. It gets more complex than you and I can handle on what takes place with the they had to do this mitigation and sentencing part of the trial more than twice. It turns out I thought it was twice. They had to do it like three times because there was always something wrong with it somewhere, sometimes some illegalities done and people complaining, oh, that's some loophole in the law. There are no such things, I believe as loopholes in the law. There was simply the law, and if don't

like it, that's it. Yeah. So whether there's the law is a certain way and things weren't done right, or he was denied certain things, or certain things transpired where we all had to go back to court a few years later and go through the sentencing all over again. And that's why he's still in prisoner of this day and not executed, although the you know, they could have executed it at the time, but they didn't.

while they're pregnant, and that devastation, generational devastation. And then this girl has to live with poster parents and then incredible stuff that you have in a book where she begs these people. Basically when she gets her notice, she gets this incredible notice from the prosecutor dorsh and he says, listen, I got some questions for you, like, how did it feel, what did it feel like, what did he touch your body with? What did he say, did he do anything? Did he touch his body afterwards?

be able to testify? And yet this information, and given all the information that they did have, the DNA, the fingerprints, all the circumstantial I guess evidence, they put together to point in the direction all this misstatements and lies that Richard Clark did, the alibis that never really worked out. They didn't really have much at trial at all. He

really didn't have much of a defense. He was pretty well, he did very very very guilty, and yet they wanted this Feather Ray here, who had never recovered from her.

away everything including the kitchen sink at the guy. And let's say it's a common planter scheme because seven years earlier he did this to poor Feather and then trying to get that kid up there on the stand. Yeah, you know, locking a four year old girl in garage, stuffing and stalking her mouth and tying her up is against the law and ever Washington and as that probably everywhere else too. He was charged with a lawful imprisonment.

They couldn't get him on child molestation because he hadn't molisted her at the top, right, and the whole thing. A lot of the effect on her, as you say, was his lifelong. I mean, she's still as upset, but she's upset at me for mentioning it. But I thought it was important and everything was she His quote is taken directly from transcripts of her at the time. I didn't want to get hold of her and have her go through it again by me asking her the same questions.

So what I undertook is I thought as a way of doing it without her having to relive it once again, was far better than calling her up on the phone saying, hey, you want to talk about it again? You know I wanted I have to do but that she says, well, I should have, but well I was trying to be kind. But Settle hunted forever, and y you know, I've I've known other people in these situations, like Sue, the oldest daughter in the web family from my book Headshot, where

it was multi generational incests. Almostly in the family either married a child molester or could have been a child molester, or whatever, and the oldest sister totally turned her life around and became a counselor for people who suffered from the same types of things that she went through and says, you've got to own your own life. You can't run from it. Then what can you take from that to

use to help other people? But I really admire your attitude, and she helped make meat deal with the book, and I think it's the same way in all these situations. If we have any purpose being here and trying to make a little better place that I working before we landed on it, you have to take whatever pain you went through and see how could you use that to mitigate the pain of others. And I've seen people do that,

and I think this was incredibly admirable. But maybe in a way that it has made a contribution by being in the book, you can see I didn't make it go through the pain of living it again.

you know, formidable foes against each other. But then there's the appeal courts and then it depends on again politics a lot of time in those cases as well. But again they're always trying to drag you know, Gail Doll and Tim iffrig and family members and people that were affected, and we're you know, right away, Gail Doll is accused. That's the police technique is to accuse people immediately to

see their response. And regardless of being sensitive to the situation, a seven year old is murdered, kidnapped right under their nose and still missing. And yet this is what gets me is that these things just and I mentioned it not so long ago, again another frustrating case of delay. Justice delayed.

examples of that. Sometimes they're rectified, sometimes they're not. We have that want in Texas where the father was trying to save his kids from a house fire and he was charged with trying to kill them in the house fire. When he was dragging truth he was trying to save them, It wasn't totally made clear by investigators that yes, he had nothing to do with stilling the fire, Yes he was trying to save his children until after he'd been execute it. Uh, you know what are you doing? That

situation's then your candidate. He's gone, the kids is on he was murdered for they were executed for killing his kids, which he didn't do. He's trying to save him. It just gets bizarre, or say worse. The case of someone such as Geronimo Pratt here in LA who was framed for murder by the FBI and the LA Prosecutor's office has spent twenties five twenty seven years in prison before they let him out and the FBI wrote him a check. Yes, we framed you. Here's a check for a certain number

of millions of dollars. Sorry for the inconvenience. Uh, you know what you know, and people I don't know that would imagine it's probably similar in Canada. Is that citizens are remarkably naive as to the degree of corruption and duplicity within politics and the legal system. It is, I mean, is far more shocking than anyone dares to contemplate. And it's been my great pleasure to work with some wonderful homicide detectives and some wonderful law enforcement personnel in the

writing of my books. That does not alter the fact that the culture in which it exists is incredibly corrupt and divisive from whatever angle is viewed. I I pity the fellow or a woman who becomes with a good heart and a clear conscience and the best intentions to serve their fellow citizens, finds themselves in the situation of having what they're living and what they're experiencing being a complete odds with the oath they took and the intentions they hold of their mind in their heart. I think

that would be devastating. I hat Deborah Golfier on my should she put on her show with her story about being the first woman in the Las Vegas Police Department and the hell he went through. Tragic and everything that was in the oath that she took as a police officer was violated twenty four to seven and it broke her heart, brought her to Jesus, as she said, that

had to be severe. So it's a rough one. I mean, I admire people who could go into the law enforcement or the legal profession and maintain their ethics in the face of ability that surrounds them.

Tim was outraged and he left the court room. What did Tim have with him?

thinking straight either. You can imagine if he had all often attacked Clark with a knife stabbed him to death, then Iffrey would be in the same legal situation pretty much as bisheard Bet to Clark. So, I mean, the whole thing is just so twisted. Uh And so, like I said, it's just multi layers of multi levels of horrific tragedy with it. There's no no happy person in this whole story, Lloyd. Like I say, the police officer who solves the case winds up back on patrol and

then kind of has a bit of a breakdown. According to his former wife, he had a daughter of the same age about his rock sane doll, and so this is he said, there was no why was he doing this case? Why was it assigned to him? He's a young detective, he had a daughter of the same age. He should have gone to the Climbs against Children division, but it was given to him instead, And then he was demoted right in the middle of everything when he's

setting the trial. The whole thing is off, Kilder, Everything about the entire story, at every level is off. I seem to be attracted to cases where everything's nuts. I don't know why. It's like in head Headshot, where people, oh, there's so much about the trial, so much about the legal stuff in the book. That's because all the legal stuff was a direct mirror image of the insanity of the crime itself. It was just as nuts, just as twisted.

And it's just astonishing to me how bizarre things can get in terms of our legal system and our so called justice system. We don't really have a system of justice in the United States. We have a system of laws and manipulation, and you know, people say, we want justice for a little feather. We want justice for Roxanne, and I say, no, you don't. That's justice comes in. Justice is for the person accused, and that's where you weigh the evidence. As we have justices blind setting there

with the scale. To bring someone to justice doesn't mean to bring someone to punishment. It means to bring them to justice to weigh the evidence. We're supposed to presume innocence. Now with our trial by talk soul culture we have here, there's a presumption of guilt right off the bat for everybody, which I find upsetting as well. I would rather err on the part of innocence than lock someone up for the rest of their life or send them to death

for something they didn't do. I can't imagine anything more awful to live through everyone thinking you're a horrible murderer when you aren't. That would be as.

about Gail Doll and tim Iffrigg. They were divorced, but you say they remained close and again a little bit of a bright spot. You said both he and his mother, the Alexander, have stopped drinking. And you say kale Doll remains in that same house where Roxanne was abducted from and Carol Clark, and Carol Clark is in the same home that where her nephew Richard lived as well.

of the mind will follow. Uh. It's yeah, I was surprised that Gail stayed in the same home were but maybe she does that as a way of honoring her daughter. I don't know. I didn't have to ask her, and I haven't spoken to her sins who wrote the book. They were incredibly cooperative. I'd say, all the people that I have dealt with family members of someone murdered and it says it's a horrible way that their daughter died.

Both Tim Iffrig and Gail Doll were the most cooperative in telling the story of You could even possibly imagine you were actually eager for people to know absolutely everything about their daughter, about their friends, about the memorials. They provided so many pictures, and I was I mean, I couldn't have asked for a greater degree of cooperation and help from a family that I got from the Doll

Effric family and from what Herndon was exemplary. Also, I was very, very fortunate on this case to get the degree of cooperation that any true clime author would wish for.

this would have happened. No one needs that laid on them, as if they had some influence over the behavior of Richard bade Park. I mean, it's that hindsight twenty twenty. You know, I say blame is only important to drunks and attorneys often the same thing. I fink I made that up, but that is true. People look for someone to blame rather than a reason to explain, and two entirely different things. One person's reason is another person's cheap excuse.

That it all depends on who you are and whether people will take that as a reason or whether oh, they're just making up excuses. So I felt sorry for them the way they were treated by friends and neighbors. People are quick to jump in the make assumptions and probably to protect their own emotions. I guess.

before it was published. And one thing we definitely agreed that we wanted to have in that book was information about fetal alcohol syndrome and the entire dynamic range of that. There was research in a study done actually in Canada on prison inmates and it was a supermajority of people in prison in Canada have fetal alcohol syndrome spectrum disorder. And it's not a matter of how much you drink. It depends entirely on the metabolism and the body chemistry

of the mother. Some can drink and not have a drink the great deal and not have it affect the child. Others a few glasses of wine could cause incredible damage, so it's not worth the risk. If you're pregnant, please don't drink. If your think about getting pregnant, don't drink. If you've ever been pregnant, don't drink. Alcohol is probably the worst in Arizon only a law where you could be put in jails even thought that you smoked meth while you were pregnant. But smoking math causes no more

fetal damage than smoking tobacco. You have, they don't lock up people up a thought of smoking while the tobacco while they're pregnant, but it's not a wise idea. Alcohol, even in the most moderate amount, can be of devastating difficulty to a child. And if you're with the learning ability and primarily with the ability to perceive a connection between action and outcome, cause and effect. Now that seems

pretty obvious to both people. And yet like people, well, don't say no right from wrong, No right from wrong, There is no it's not like you're a dog with the instinct that tells you to do this. That human things have very little instinct and a great deal of acquired knowledge what is right and what is wrong. It is culturally and socially defined, and someone has to teach you in these situations. This is appropriate, this is inappropriate.

Someone with fetal alcohol syndrome has great difficulty grasping the connection between what I do and what happens. They're also easily manipulated by other criminals, so they wind up taking the fall for other people because they're trying to be helpful and the other person's using and working them. And so the the effect of alcohol on the brain, even you know, from the mother to the child, can be an incredible social impact. There are certain things that we

know for a fact reduce crime and criminality. These are the aren't things we're willing to do because they go against what we believe, even if they're not true. For example, legalization of almost anything reduces crime because it's no longer a crime, first of all, and second of all, because it's no longer a secret. People will get help for problems that they don't have to keep the problem a secret if it's illegal. They're going to keep it secret, you know, but oh no, we can't do that. We

also know that. I mean, we were talking about murder, killing people, homicide, rational saying human beings don't do that. So while what is it that's going on in someone's head that they're going to do that, there's something wrong here somewhere that is not going to be repaired by putting them in a cage. It protects us from their

future behavior, if it's likely behavior. But the whole concept of the punitive model, which is, you know, punishing people into wise behavior, has been repeatedly demonstrated to be a totally false construct that doesn't work. Now I do because of head injury as a child. I can identify with that some aspects of fetal alcohol syndrome because it's also common with head injury. I have never been able to

comprehend the concept of punishment. Now I can read about it, I could study it, but it still makes no sense to me. I could not comprehend it no matter how much I read. I can understand, and I advocate separating people who are predators from the rest of us. You know, it put them in it somewhere else, but not near us, the Lord bless and keep them far away from us. But I don't see how punishing produces has anything to

do one with the other. It with a positive outcome, and you can try to explain it to me, but I still both understand it. I cannot identify with it whatsoever. But I write through crime books I read with people talking about punishment, what this person deserves, and maybe they deserve to be hunger or locked up forever, or is it that we deserve it to be protected from this person for the rest of their life? From what angle

are we looking at? And then to punished people by sending the prison and give them absolutely no rehabilitation everys whatsoever, so they come out worse than they wed in. I don't see the value of the society of that at all. And have you ever been an ex fellon trying to get a job, lots of luck, you know who's going to hire you, and there's a discrimination on that you've already paid your debt to society, but they keep adding interests.

It just gets worse all the time. So that's my soapbox ran for the day.

they have their areas of concern for her. When she says that she's going to hurt herself, she's going to cut herself or carve herself or hurt someone else, they take the initiative to take her to a psychiatric hospital. They feel that there isn't grounds to be able to hold her, but yet there is a point where she is handcuffed, you know, so I keep going back to the most remarkable part of this book is Feather Ray

here at four years old. Of course, we almost seem to forget about Roxane Doll, but this Feather Hagar Ray here is the person that throughout her life has to avoid this Richard Clark. And when it comes back in seven years that she realized that somebody else has now been not just almost molested, but actually been killed, and she does not. As she says in the book, she says, I don't want to remember this. I don't want to

go back there. I don't want to She did not want to experience this, not one little bit ever again, did she no?

But this is why I started the book with Feather, not only because it's dramatic, but it shows on both the perpetrator and the victim the irrevocable damage of this sort of thing. Both the perpetrator and the victim had gone through pretty much the same thing. There was just a lapse of several years between what was under Richard and what he's doing to her. And it was all about power and all about being powerless and not wanting to ever feel that way again. And how do you

deal with it? What do you do. It's like, well,

I mention talked about the promiscuity, sexual promiscuity. Well, a lot of people don't realize is that for someone who's been a victim or potential victim of sexual molestation, be it by a friend, family member, father and mother, whoever say oh, it's so promiscuous, every act of what you think of his promiscuity is a victory because who is making the decision on whether or not they're going to be touched, Who is making the decision if they're going

to have sex with that person they are? It is their decision, and no one is taking that away from them. If they say yes, it's because they said yes. If it's no, it's because they said no. They make the choice, and that to them is empowering. There are two most common responses, shall we say to brother's sister, incestor that type of thing family? It says, one is to become ice cold and have no sex with anybody, and you

know have that problem. The other is an incredibly act of sex life which appears to be wanting and promiscuous to others. But each act is affirmation that is your choice, and the more affirmation you need, the more choices you make reminds me of the strange way of We had a fireplace at our home when I was a kid, and my sister was makes you rest in peace, was

ten years older than iamis. It's had to be. One day when we were both with all visiting our parents, she said, you ever notice that we never ever had a fire in the fireplace? And never had it occurred to me. We had this gorgeous fireplace and with you know, the nice fireplace, irons and all that sort of stuff. Why did we never have a fire, she says, asked dad. So I went to my father and I said, Dad, why is it that in all the years we've lived here,

this lovely fireplace, we've never had a fire? And he laughs and smile. He says, I'll tell you why. He says. Every day that I could wake up, walk into the living room and look at that fireplace and see that it's cold and dark and didn't have to be lit is another day of victory. One more day I didn't have to huddle next to the fire to stay alive like I did when I was a child in Russia. Wow. Yeah, interesting. So it all depends on how you look at it.

You know what your life experiences where you're coming from, and that never occurred to me. He actually had to do that. He had to huddle next to the fire in this little village in rushing with the Cossacks coming in and you know, shooting at kids for target practice. And you know, he was walking down the street and they came to and killed the guy he's walking down the street with while he's holding his hand. Poor about

horrible things. We took him to see Fiddler on the Roof as it was it like that, Dad is that It was exactly like that becauset the hell of a lot worse than no one was singing.

getting out of there. Just like some of the other people like Kirby Anthony up in Alaska who actually church people turn out to be model prisoners. Some adn't, but because that is going to be their life forever, you know what I mean, until they die. They'll die in prison. How do you give some meaning to your life? How

do you do something? A project I'm currently working on with Pablo Statamiravich who was what sixteen years in the system, and he brought the what called rehabilitation to the arts program into the prison, all sorts of positive things that were done for rehabilitation and to help people advance. You know, where people can do positive things within a prison environment. It'says strange as it may sound, but they have to. I mean, there has to be some value to human life.

And if you just take humans and put them in cages and keep them well ordered. That it's doesn't make anything any better, not for the correctional officers, or the staff or the people in the prison. There's a broken system, as you well know, the penal system. I don't know how it is and Canada, the United States, that's it's a tragically broken system. And they keep the putative model

doesn't work. Separation for the sake of safety works, but whipping people or beheading them to the beheading and stops everything. That's the story. That's my two cents on it.

You know what he is? It a oop? Sorry? Take two? Yeah, when you've killed the role anger the death, I haven't attitude about it, and that is I'm in favor of having the death penalty on the books, and I'm in favor of not using it, which sounds peculiar, I know, but I think it should be there. Even if it's not, you use it, hopefully not used, but still there to show because the idea is it's only supposed to use

in the worst of the worst cases. And if you didn't use it for this guy who killed one hundred and twenty five people or a rapid murdered eighteen women, and you don't use it for him, how can you use it for this guy? You know? I mean, that's always the thing they bring up, as it's supposed to be for the absolute worst of the worst. Well, who makes that judgment call? And on what do you base

being the worst of the worst? It's uh So I'm in favor of it having it on the books, simply symbolically to show how severe a clime could be that it merits taking your life. And yet because of the complexities I would just as would never see it. It's instituted. You know. If I was Ted Bundy, nobody asked he was in the was uh in Denver something? He says, what's the state where I would be most likely to be put to death? And they said Florida? Where does

he go? Florida? Why does he get when he had a chance to get away, He went to the state boarder and you go back and forth waiting for them to catch him. Yeah, you know what's that about it? He wants to get stopped. He wants to federally gave me from this. How much could a guy like that suffer being as wackled as he was? Yeah, it's like Reviser,

You're not Lawrence Talbot the Wolfman. You know you don't understand you do you ever see those movies why Jady Junior's number one line of dialogue and all the Wolfman movies? You don't understand. And it's true, we don't. We don't understand what. But that's like to have that inner trom uh. You know, even a man who's hard as pure and says that prayers the night can changed. Well Wolf, well maybe that was going on. I don't know about it. I should go want to live through it.

an audio book all this time. Has been available, Uh you know is an electronic but is it e book for your kindel No, for your coble or whatever little things are and also in print from Kensington has been publishing cover lea Pintacle True Climb series, but now it finally.

on mixed cloud, Brobaria'll find numerous shows on iTunes. Now at long last you'll find some of our shoes. You can subscribe to it because of anchor FM, which has certainly pulled us back together the last couple of months. I've uploaded a lot of the shows that adding more all the time to the roster programs that you can download through iTunes from Anchor FM is just look for True Crime on Sensored on any of your podcast platforms

or look it up online. And it was originally hosted by Don Woldman and I or Me Whether I Am Don unfortunately passed away suddenly a few years ago. But to a total shock Howard Repeat, us stream show business manager and dominant force senator, just give up. I want to ask all the questions after we have, But we have a fact checker, which I think is important. Mark

Boyer researches. I developed research by listening to your program because quite often you'll have the guests up of what we do and uh, he'll ask put down all the questions that you didn't ask. The two shows gonna be listening together a full picture, uh and uh that's an important thing to have. So which check the facts, and then we have various guest co hosts come in from show business personnelities, actors, actresses, producers such as Frank J. Hagen.

Uh So we had like a little true crime crew. Was a Rod Chepsick, who also does a True Clive show, said, here's you don't do a true crime and show. You do a comedy show that has true crime guests. Well, maybe that's true. We just try to be entertaining and get the information out and help sell books especially.

on there so you can find them. Also, you can find true Climb on Censored has a fan page on Facebook. Uh we you can go to now We'll just runna. There's also burrelbearer dot Net has most of my books on there, and it's a little bit about my exciting life. Expensive website to be sure, so I hope someone enjoys it.