Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say?
Yes? You do?
In the car before my kids pta meeting?
Really?
Yes?
Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
I never win?
And tell well, there you have it.
You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com play for free right now?
Are you feeling lucky?
Nobri just necessary foid. We're gonna be my long eighteen plus terms. Conditions of pluck seems after details.
Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight the other day playing one of my favorite social spin slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at the person sitting next to me, and you know what they were doing. They were also playing Chumpa Casino. Coincidence, I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So sign up now at chumbuck Casino dot com to
claim you're free, welcome bonus. That's chumbuck Casino dot com and live the Chumba Lane.
No we necessary dvod where every I lost e terms conditions eighteen plus.
Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Lucky in line at the deli, I guess ah, in my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say?
Yes?
You do?
In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?
Really?
Yes?
Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
I never win?
And tell well, there you have it.
You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com. Play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky?
Nobs?
Just necessary?
Void?
Were my long eighteen plus terms and conditions of Plusy wants every details.
Judy was boring Hello. Then Judy discovered Chumpacasino dot com.
It's my little escape.
Now Judy's the life of the party.
Oh baby mama is bringing home the bacon.
WHOA, take it easy, Judy, jump the chump a life. That's for everybody.
So go to chumpacasino dot com and play over one hundred casino style games. Join today and play for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices. Jump Chumpacasino dot com. Nobrid's Necessary Weight.
We're going at its term condition of what everty deils.
You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. One day, Andrea Yates was a loving mother. The next the nation was shocked by the death of her five innocent children. The nine one one called it shocked country. I just killed my children? Why were they killed? On June twenty, two thousand and one, in a middle class Houston suburb, Andrea Yates and her husband, Russell, a Nassa engineer, prepared for the routine week day ahead. But before the morning was over, tragedy would strike the quiet
family and turn the day into a nightmare. Shortly before ten am, Andrea calmly summoned the police with a grim confession. One by one, Andrea Yate's children, aged ages six months to seven years, had been drowned in their bathtub. No one who knew Andrea could picture the devoted mother capable of such an unbelievable crime, or imagine the terror in the eyes of her trusting children as their father struggled between overwhelming grief and loyalty to his imprisoned wife, an
outraged nation struggled with an unfathomable question. Breaking Point provides a harrowing portrait of the suffocating darkness at the heart of one all American family and exposes the private demons that pushed a mother over the edge. The book that we're featuring this evening is Breaking Point with my special guest journalist and author, Susie Spencer. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Susie Spencer, Well,
thank you for having me. Well, thank you very much. This is an incredible tale. Now gone on to true crime history. And tell us a little bit about this newest edition and tell us when it was originally released. Tell us a little bit about those details, please, Well, the.
Book first came out just about a month or two before Andrea's first trial, So I did not get to include my trial coverage. And I was there all but one day of the first trial. So for the past thirteen and a half years, I've been trying to get that coverage in, and diversion books came to me and
they let me put that in. And then also I went to doctor Lucy per Year, who was the expert psychiatric witness for the defense, and said, give me something new, and to my great shock, Lucy said, come to my house. The files are yours. So she let me into her garage apartment and I sat there for a few hours going through all of her files. And I am the first reporter, in fact, maybe the first person she's ever
shown the files too. And then at the end, because the story the crime working on the case just really got to doctor Puryeer because she had a child who was the same age as Andrea's daughter Mary, and so she's like, I don't know what to do with these files anymore. Take what you want and keep them. So right now I have in my hallway a huge box of the defense files and so I have woven that into the book as well as my trial coverage.
And congratulations on that as well, because for all those people that think they know the story, even if you were lucky enough to have your book from back in two thousand and.
Two, was it, Yes, it came out the end of two thousand and one, beginning two thousand and two.
If those people and anybody that thinks they really know this story, with the access to the information that you have added to the original story, this is just an incredible tale that I think, as we spoke just before we went on air, this is some incredible stuff where we'll talk about this a little bit later where fiction and television and criminal profilers and the FBI and everybody gets involved in this, and this really does captivate and resonate,
I mean, is an understatement with the American society and still is an issue that people are grappling with and still scratching their head over. So this is a landmark case and historic case, and let's get to that right now. So tell us a little bit about Andrea Pia Kennedy. And unlike the book I mentioned that, you talk about the crime unfolding and the case unfolding and it's very
very interesting. But let's first talk a little bit about Andrea Pia Kennedy and just a little bit about her background before we get into this incredible tale.
Well, her dad was Irish Catholic, her mom was German. They met during the war World War Two because her dad, I believe, was a pilot and he was very proud of his Irish Catholic Kennedy name. And she was brought up devout Catholic until her father lost his job and then he kind of lost his faith for a while and they quit going to church. But in some ways they were still trying to emulate the Kennedys in that they loved to sail, they loved to be out doors,
they wanted to be the best at everything. So Andrea was a championship swimmer and her high school she was National Honor Society. And then she went to college and became a registered nurse and worked at M. D Anderson with cancer patients.
Now you talk about Andrea Kennedy, and she was, as you described in the book, she was quite a striking looking woman, a good looking woman, and you said she excelled in sports. You do talk about how no one really could comment her being so gregarious, but it wasn't like she was totally withdrawn, so sort of sort of a neutral sort of assessment of her. But it was interesting how the two met. Russell and her met, so tell us how they met well.
Andrea never dated, like you say, she was kind of reserved, shy. She did have a close group of very you know or small group of very close friends, but she never dated. She was a wallflower and I think took a little bit of pride in that. And then she did date after she got out of excuse me, out of college. She did date one guy, but that went sour, and so she was still a loner. And one day she was in the swimming pool at her apartment complex and she was there just floating in the water with her
arms outstretched. And Andrea was tall and shapely, you know, had a great build from Oliver swimming. And Rusty Yates was who lived in the apartment complex, spotted her and just thought she was gorgeous and couldn't take her his eyes off of her. But they're both a little bit on the shy side. So she left, but she did notice him, and a few weeks later she one night was feeling kind of lonely, had gone out to dinner by herself, and went and knocked on Rusty's door and said, Hey,
my car got hit. Do you buy any chance know who hit it? And this was all a setup. Yes, her car had really gotten hit, but you know, she just went to Rusty to try to open the conversation. And when Rusty answered the door, he was on the phone to someone else and his mouth just dropped, going, God, got guy, you know this gorgeous woman. So then he you know, talked to her a little bit and then went back to his friend on the phone and said, I just met the most gorgeous woman. And they started dating.
The first dates were kind of awkward, you know, dinner in a movie, but you know, with him, neither one very much talking. But it was something that worked. And he was a devout Christian, although he kind of gets kind of iffy about when he became a Christian. She became one also through him. But yet they lived together and had sex before they got married, which shocked everyone.
Now we just we will be talking about this more. But when you talked about him being to devout Christian and for all those people, because I was raised Roman Catholic, but there is different degrees of I guess the vouteness. So what was a little bit of that, what was the feature of her religious background in terms of promiscuity
or the importance of, say, sexual chastity. Was there any indication that there was any kind of prudishness associated with the religiosity that she was involved with, if.
I remember correctly. Even her mother called her a prude. She didn't like to be touched. She once that she and Rusty got together, she would dress and undress in a closet. Rusty says that was because she was so shy. Doctor Purryer told me that was because Andrea felt like every time she undressed in front of Rusty he wanted to have sex, and that was the way to stop him.
But yes, she was basically a prude, and she always wanted to be and was the good girl, study hard, work hard, help other people, be a good nurse, do kind deeds for the elderly and firm. She was just the cliche good girl.
Now let's talk about religion while we're still on it, and that she finds out about an evangelist named Michael. We're a neki. Yes, if I mispronounced that, you can correct me if you want, But when is it exactly? And if it's if I'm jumping ahead let me know as well, when does it that she discovers this evangelist Michael We're an Eki and what is it that he is saying in terms of his his religious abews.
Well, we need to jump back to Rusty for a little bit to get into that, because she met Warren Eki through Rusty and Rusty was born in New York State and then when he was a little kid, they moved to Tennessee and one of his grandfathers, I can't remember if it was on his mother or father's side. I think on his father's side was a preacher. And when they moved to Tennessee, they eventually joined a Methodist church and were very very active in it, and everyone
considered Rusty again a devout, devoted Christian. He was in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. He was also a good boy, smart, funny, but shy. He would get really nervous when he had to talk to people. Took great pride in his brain. But he was also a star athlete on the football team. And then his father died when he was in high school.
He seemed to crack down on himself more. Rusty did studying harder so he could get a scholarship, and when he went off to college, everyone thought Rusty was this great Christian. Inside Rusty was doubting Christianity and he was going to Auburn University and one day he was walking across campus and he heard this preacher who was attracted
him because he wouldn't take flack off of people. He was sort of a smart alec and Rusty liked what he was saying and started following him and called up his mother one night and said, I finally get it.
I finally believe. And so for years he stayed in touch with Michael Warnecki, who was a traveling evangelist who went to college for college to college, preferably in the Sun beltan excuse me, the Bible Belt, even though he did go all over the world, and basically what he did was get there with huge placards and tell everybody you're going to Hell. Like when he was at the University of Oklahoma, he said, I hate oe you because that's where the worst Christians are, and Christians are horrible.
He didn't even want to be called a Christian. But the basically everybody in the world but Michael Warrenecki and his family were going to Hell, and some reason or other this attracted Rusty. Rusty says that Warren Ecki got more outrageous over the years and that he sort of withdrew some. But Rusty introduced Andrea to the warren Necks.
They stayed in touch, they exchanged letters. Rusty would send them money, Andrea would bake goods for them and send them cookies and cakes, and that just developed a relationship. Whereas Rusty really wanted to be like the Warren eckis that you travel on a bus. They they had a converted bus that they lived in, and you go traveling the world to bring people to Christ and you taught your kids. You didn't really have any place to call home.
You didn't have any material possessions. Your life was just getting on the bus going to colleges, pull out the banners saying you're going to Hell, and scream at everybody telling him that they're going to hell and that they're evil and horrible.
Now, this is in congress to the job that he has and the intellect that he has for those people that think that there is a separation between this rational thought and some irrational thought. When we get into what exactly this Michael Waerniki preaches and some of the things that his wife and he advised Andrea. So let's talk about his NASAU job and his relationships there and that sort of dichotomy with his intellect and this fervent religiosity.
Well, you're exactly right, because he was on scholarship. He was basically he considered himself a math genius. When he was in college, he did a summer internship or actually I don't know if it is a summer a year long, but an internship at NASA and clear Lake or Houston area where he worked on I think the super shuttle. And then when he got out of college he went to work for NASA, and when the murders happened, he was an eighty thousand dollars a year at NASA engineer.
And when you're talking to Rusty, which I spent many hours talking to him, he loves to show off his intellect and he is very bright, and he talks so over my head when it comes to computers and space stuff, and I'm you know, he's very, very bright, and it is kind of confusing. But NASA engineers, or that I learned from the people who live in that area are very,
very focused. And that's what I learned about Rusty. He has tunnel vision, and when he sees something that he wants, he's going to zero in on that and nothing else matters. He doesn't really hear anything else. So this is just my supposition I'm coming to as I'm talking to you, that he is just so focused that it wouldn't really matter what the warren NECKI or what anyone said about the warren neckis. And Rusty didn't have a lot of friends.
And one of the things I noticed when I was around Rusty is when you're with him, he is so prove persuasive that he'll say things, didn't you just go, yeah, yeah, that makes sense, and then you walk away and you can think about it by yourself and go, that's bonkers. And Andrea never had the chance to walk away. And since Rusty didn't have anyone to tell him, you know that this guy is bonkers because he wasn't going to
reveal this to anyone else. So that when I say bonkers that Michael Warnecky is bonkers, you know, Rusty's not going to hear that. And I met one other person who was a Warnecky follower and a very bright, kind guy, and it took him twelve years to wake up to Warnicky was doing. So it's not something that has to do with intellect.
Now, let's talk about the most important aspect of this story and issues in this story. Again their religion and their religiosity or their faith will say, because they weren't always connected with a specific religion per se. Let's talk about what their idea was, what Andrea's idea was, and what Russell's idea was in terms of marriage and the care of children and a woman staying home, those issues,
those critical issues. What were Andrea's views and what were Russell's views regarding that well, and.
Again this was greatly influenced by Michael Warnecki, and that is that the wife is a Jezebel. She is a seductress. She's evil, she's horrible, But yet she is supposed to stay home, do everything, the husband says, take care of the children, not work outside of the home. Just do everything, the husband says. Did that answer your question?
Sure? So she did want to have children, and they got to that shortly after their marriage, in short order, and then within a year that she was pregnant again. So tell us about the marriage and the relationship and the child rearing in that first couple of years.
Yes, it was. Andrea worked as a nurse until she had her first child. Then it was known that she would immediately quit work and as far as having children, they did not use birth control. Their deal was that they were going to have as many children as God allowed, and it didn't matter if Andrea got six and the doctor said, don't have any more children, because surely you'll
have another. About a postpartum depression and psychosis, Rusty explained it to me one night just before the trial, that we thought of postpartum depression and psychosis is like somebody offered us a Mercedes Binz which would be the child. And to get this free Mercedes Bins, because we're going to give it to you for free, you're going to
have the flu for a couple of weeks. And he said, so of course you'd take that chance that, Okay, I can get this Mercedes Bins, but I'm going to have the flu for two weeks, but I'll get over it. So he considered it that God's given him this free trial child, but Andrea is going to get sick, perhaps with postpartum depression and psychosis. But it's no problem. We will just give her the meds that got her well before and everything will be okay. He did not pay
attention because again Rusty has tunnel vision. He goes after what he wants and doesn't let anything else. And I'm not saying he's a bad guy. I'm just saying he has tunnel vision. And so and the doctor who treated her for postpartiment depression and psychosis said, do not have any more kids, because she will surely have this again, and each time she has it will it will get worse. They ignored that. They chose to ignore that.
Now there's other things involved here, because it's complicated because Rusty at some point says that and does enough research.
Because I find this odd that he has again this evangelical interest in belief, and yet then again he's again the sort of a dichotomy where he's going online and finding and researching Helldall and the newer antipsychotic medication and dosage, actually sparring with the psychiatrist at one point saying, you know, you should give her this much and you can't increase in terms of milligram that dosage because of this tell us a little bit about how much again, try to
get me to understand how much faith he has in the medication to be able to work perfectly despite not having it work perfectly the very time first time she experienced the drug.
Well, no, again, we sort of need to back up because Rusty, according to him, he sort of distanced himself from the Warren Echis because he bought their bus, their six hundred and fifty square foot bus I believe it was, and then he got upset with the bus, and I think he kind of distanced himself from the Warren Echis at that point because he didn't think the bus was
what they had presented it to be. But Andrea stayed in touch with him, So Rusty is sort of leaving being their fold according to him, and at this point when Andrea is sick. At the beginning, like with their first bout of it, Rusty did not believe in mental illness. He told his neighbors this, I don't believe in mental illness. It's just a matter of buck up. But after Andrea's first diagnosed case of postpartum depression in psychosis, Rusty kind
of learned and he learned about the medicines. So then on this last bout when the psychiatrist, because they went to a different psychiatrist because the one that Andrea had originally gone to was in Houston and that was on the wrong side of town from what Rusty needed. Plus he had a big project at NASA, and going to the other side of town finding babysitters just didn't work
with his schedule. So he found another facility and psychiatrist in the area where they were, and he asked someone if the psychiatrist any good, and somebody said, oh, yes, they're all good or whatever, and Rusty said, at that point, I didn't realize there was a difference in doctors. And so when they went to this new hospital and with a new doctor, Rusty kept saying, put her on holdall that worked before, and instead they were saying, no, that
has bad side effects. We need this other drug, these newer drugs, but they weren't working. So that's when Rusty wentz started begging, saying put her on holdall that works.
At the same time, Andrea is corresponding with Rachel, we're NECKI, which is Michael's wife. Now, how much does she subscribe to the same evangelical philosophy as her husband and as a result, what does she specifically say to Andrea when Andrea says something like I'm feeling lonely, oh.
Man, and I wish I could pull that up on my book right now because I was given or I should say, I was slipped some letters.
Lucky Land Casino, asking people, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Lucky? In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say?
Yes?
You do?
In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?
Really?
Yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? I never win? And tell well, there you have it.
You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com play for free right now?
Are you feeling lucky?
No, we're not necessary, boyd were my law eighteen plus Terms and Conditions of pluck se weetsay details.
With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere, Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen the bride and groom?
Sorry?
Sorry, we're here.
We were getting lucky in the limo when we lost track of time.
No Lucky land casino with cash prizes that add up quicker than a gets registered.
But in that case, I pronounce you lucky.
Play for free at lucky landslots dot com.
Daily bonuses are waiting, no purchase necessary boid. We're prohibited by long eighteen plus terms and conditions.
Applau see what secret.
Details Arnecki wrote to Andrea, and they were just horrendous of telling her how evil she was, that she was an evil witch, and that she was going to hell, and that she hoped that she could be saved. And one of the things I learned while working on this book is when somebody is psychotic, the last thing you do is talk to them about religion, because they're psychotic brains can't put it into rational terms. They twisted all up.
So all this constant hearing while Andrea's psychotic, that you're evil, you're possessed, you're a wicked witch, you're destroying your children. Andrea's twisted mind made her start believing that, so that she started believing that she was possessed or full of Satan, if not Satan herself, and that she was destroying her children.
And so that's when she eventually drowned the children because she thought the only way she could save them, the only way to get them away from Satan, who was herself, was to kill them, so then they could die and go to heaven and be safe with Jesus.
Well, let's go backwards a little bit to set up this incredible thing, because I think that there's a lot happens before this, and obviously in hindsight, everybody's can see warning signs. But she has five children. Again, this medication has been altered, she has gone to the doctor or her husband is pleading. So what is the situation that everyone can see? And what we didn't talk about too, is that part of her anxiety is that she has let the children down, and she's critical of her own
abilities as a homeschool teacher. So that's part of her duties as well, not only to raise and breastfeed and cook the meals and take care of the kids, it's also to homeschool them, entertain them, and five kids at one time. So tell us about the situation in terms
of her doctor. Her psychiatrist, doctor sayid what he thinks is going on, will say just a week before or two weeks before, and how Russell feels about this, and what about the family members, her family, his family, what is the what is the situation their perspective on Andrea's mental health at that time previous to these murders.
Yeah, I'm just looking here in the book where I'm talking about Rachel Warnecki directing Andrea to tide us too, and where she talks about the role of women to love their husbands, their children, be pure, be sensible, the workers at home kind and subject to their own husbands so that the word of God not be dishonored. So I believe that's what you were talking about. And she also wrote, Jesus knows how wicked you are, how weak and vulnerable, but God is able to sympathize with your weaknesses.
Even the loneliness works to draw you to seek and find security in Him. And when she was in her last hospital stay, she would sort of mention to people the few times that she spoke about something about a bus and evil and Satan, and the nurses there were totally confused. But one of the bottom lines in this
is the insurance. That the insurance was running out, and so the doctor, at least based on the notes that I saw and I went through I think a thousand pages of notes, many times page by page, comparing them. Andrew would be showing symptoms of psychosis and someone that's supposed to be psychosis free for X number of hours or days. Unfortunately I've forgotten before there released Well, it didn't matter if Andrea's insurance was running out, Suddenly she
was marked psychosis free. And the notes that I saw about psychosis and psychotic behavior and hints of it and what doctor Sayid testified to were two different things. And he said she was never psychotic. Well, if she wasn't, then how come they had her on hal Doll. But two weeks before the murders, Doctor Sayid took Andrea off the how Doll And it takes approximately two weeks to get out of your system, so I think it was actually two weeks and two days that the murders happened.
Just a few days before the murder happened, they had I believe, a father to day celebration with Andrea's family there, and Andrea's mother talked to Rusty and said, please do not leave her alone. Promise me you will not leave her alone with the kids. According to the mother, Rusty promised that unknown to her was that Rusty was already leaving Andrea alone. He would describe it as we were trying to wean her off of his mother who was
staying with her. So that was what opened up the window of opportunity, if you want to say that, there was one that Rusty's mother would not show up until ten o'clock in the morning when Rusty went to work at nine, and she would leave about five o'clock, when Rusty would not get home until five thirty or six.
Before Let's talk about one thing. What was it from doctor, said her tending psychiatrist. What was his rationale at that time for taking her off? The helldal.
God only knows. And I mean that sincerely, because I talked with a nurse who used to work at the same facility, and she left and other employees left because of the lack of communication with doctor Sayid. They told me that he would walk by and wave at a patient and say that he had checked in with him. So my theory is that, hey, she's out of here, she's off insurance, you know, let's take.
Her off, and we're talking about it. Just to be clear for the audience, we're talking ten days, ten days, the person was expected to be well in ten days, when probably even the most optimistic doctor would not even suggest that the medication would even kick in by that amount of time.
Well, no, at that point, at that point, he was saying, everything is working. You know, let's take her off of this, because she was also out of the hospital, so she was still on medication when she was in the hospital,
but then she was released. You know, everything I was told by someone I think it was one of the nurses I talked to that sayid had this theory about there are patients who will never get well, or let me rephrase that that there are doctors whose as psychiatrists who think that patients will never be well, so you just sort of keep them coming back, coming back, coming back,
which eventually creates more money. And I gather, I'm not saying this is fact because doctor said would not talk to me, but that he felt like she was one of these so you just ship them.
And again I'm not saying doctor said practices.
I don't want to get sued, but there is a correlation in my mind.
Okay, Susie, We're just going to stop for a second, just to pause for a moment to hear about DirecTV right now, they have a super offer nineteen ninety nine a month for twelve months with a twenty four month agreement. DirecTV is truly a superior alternative to cable with access to over two hundred and eighty five channels and DirecTV's most advanced HDDVR system ever, and right now three months free of HBO, Showtime, Stars and Cinemax with the Select
through Ultimate packages. Watch anytime your favorite true crime like Investigation, Discovery Ver, forty eight hours on the Case with Paula's on Crime and Investigation, and my all time favorite American Justice. That's in addition to all the latest television programs, the biggest movies, and the very best in sports programming, offering
amazing bundles and amazing savings. So call one eight five five nine eight zero three eight one two and switch to direct TV today nineteen ninety nine a month for twelve months with three free months of your favorite channels. That's direct TV one eight five to five nine eight zero three eight one two. Susie, let's talk about the day in question. What happened previous to that, If there was any major events, anything that would in hindsight look
like a foreboding, a warning. Tell us about the day or so the day before the events.
Well, if it's okay with you, I would like to go back to what you were talking about about doctor Sayid and taking her off the medication. And if I can just read two or three paragraphs from the book that I think really answers your question. And it was on the last night of Andrea's second stay at the Devreeux Texas Treatment Network, which was the last hospital where she was, and he said that he Rusty said he arrived at six o'clock and he was stunned to find
Andrea's standing with her packed bags. He asked the staff what was going on. They said Andrea was being released. According to Rusty, the nurses lowered their heads as if in shame and embarrassment, and turned to walk away without saying a word. Knowing that Andrea was too sick to be released. They couldn't do anything else, Rusty understood because the ten day insurance day had run out, so he
took his wife home. And so then Rusty thought she was like sixty sixty five percent of herself, which always found it interesting that he described it that way. In percentage, and then it said on Monday, June eighteenth, he took Andrea back to doctor Sayid and told him that she wasn't doing well. According to Rusty, and I want to emphasize that's according to Rusty, the doctor wrote in his
notes that she was doing well. Rusty protested and asked the doctor if her any depressant could be changed, and doctor Sayid, according to Rusty, again said well, since it's not working anyway, and he reduced her any depressant. And then that's where he was quoting the dosages and everything that you were talking about. And he said that the doctor was reducing it too much, and the doctor said
it's okay. He knew what he was doing. And that night Rusty went to the pharmacy, got the new prescriptions filled, came home and gave them to Andrea. And then the quote in the book that he gave me. He came home and this was on a Monday, gave them to Andrea, and Wednesday morning, the kids were dead. Yeah, so I
am guessing what you were talking about. Were you talking about filling the bathtub with water and you were saying about okay it when it actually happened seems to very depending on who you were talking to, but it seems that about a month or so before this, Andrea filled the bathtub with water in like the middle of the day, and Rusty's mother came in and saw this and said, what's going on? And Andrea said, I thought we might
need it. One of her stories because Andrea psychotic, and her stories change over time, as one of the psychiatrists talked about, as she gets better, healthier mentally healthier, her mind is trying to make sense of what happened, so she starts putting rational thought and reasoning behind irrational, you know, old irrational thoughts and actions. So that makes the story kind of change over time as she's trying to rationalize things.
So at one point her story was that she saw a water truck or a water tower and she was scared that they weren't going to be able to pay their bill or that there was not going to be enough water, and so she was putting the water in the bathtub to you know, have water in case the water got caught off. Other times she was saying that she was going to do that to drown the children.
So it's hard to know what was reality when you're talking to a psychotic person or one who is coming out of psychosis and trying to make sense of the actions in the past.
Does that make sense, Yes, it does. For the record, for all, for the official record, was she abusive at all? Was there any mistreatment of those children by Andrea Yates?
Not that I'm aware of by Andrea. Absolutely not. I could not find one person who ever knew Andrea, who was ever a neighbor of hers, who ever spent time with her with children, whoever even just observed her walking into a store and a hair salon down the street, in the grocery store. I could not find one person who said one bad thing about Andrea. Rusty would send me videos of Andrea and b let me rephrase that.
Rusty would send me videos that Andrea had taken of the kids because it seemed to be and I would stay up all hours of the night, get up in the middle of the night, go watch these videos. And it seemed to me that the camera and the kids were her only friends. And she would sit there and video tape the kids and talk to them and encourage
them and on those videos. Because you never see Andrea since she's running the camera but she was always so encouraging, so proud of those kids, constantly teaching them and teaching them in a kind and tender way. Never heard her raise a voice, nothing. And so when the trial came, the first trial came, the judge allowed in those videos, but she would not allow in them sound, only the visual.
So you saw these beautiful children laughing and having fun and playing, and you're in the jury or in the courtroom, you're going, oh my gosh, these fabulous kids. But because she would not allow the video, I mean the sound, the people in the courtroom, the jewors could not hear Andrea being such a great mother, encouraging the kids, teaching them, loving them, praising them. All they saw were the kids
and then the visualization of this evil mother. Who how could she kill these beautiful children, which, of course we still all ask. The answer is psychosis, mental illness that went untreated or improperly treated.
Let's talk about the day of the murder. You had spoke about Russell's mother, Dora, I believe, coming in to the home because they were aware that she shouldn't be alone with the children, and he, just as you had mentioned, he had promised to not leave her alone with the children. So there was certainly a major concern, a serious concern. So tell us what happens that day.
Well, they get up, they're having some cereal. Now, mind you that Andrea's barely speaking to anyone. She's been mute for god knows how long. Her best friend said, she just spoke of very few words to her. Over months. She would basically look like a zombie. Maybe Pace wouldn't let go of baby Mary. She was just psychotic, you know, practically cannacotic. But Rusty left her and that there were cereal bowls on the table, and he liked to talk about how the kids loved to get their own breakfast.
They wanted to do anything to help their mom. And she went in between nine and ten am, because Rusty left the house about five or ten minutes to nine because he needed to be at work at nine. And she filled the bathtub, put Mary in her in the bathroom with her on the base. Neet and I stood in this bathroom and stared down at the bathtub, and it's a tiny little place, and I would think when Mary's in the basinet next to the tub, there's not
much room. But she first got a two year old Luke and drowned him, and then picked him up and carried him into the master bedroom where they had a mattress on the floor so that the kids could play in there, and tucked him in. And then go Paul the three year old, and drowned him, and went and did the same thing, and then five year old John went and tucked him in the bed. Then she drowned Mary. And then she went and got Noah, and Noah walked in. I believe it was Noah, and they had been Yeah,
I'm pretty sure it was Noah. He looked and said, what's wrong with Mary? He fought the hardest. There were wet footprints up and down the tile floor. And she left Noah in the bathtub and picked up Mary and went and took her and put her in the bed with John and wrapped their hands around each other as if John were protecting her. And then she went and called the police and said, help, come here, killed my children.
Does she call her husband?
Yes, she did, and she called him and said come, and he goes, is there a problem? And he said she said yes, And he said is it the children? She said yes? And he said which one or how many? And she said all of them, and he went He called his mother and said, you know, where are you? I thought you were there or something, and they both raced over to the house.
Why wasn't the mother there?
She just didn't show up till ten o'clock, right. And one of the things I thought was really weird is when Rusty was giving one of his sidewalk press conferences, he said, I was hoping at least Noah was alive because sometimes my mother took one of the children home with her. Well, she was actually staying at an extended stay America. Well, I know that I was hoping Noah was with her because sometimes she takes one of them home at night with her to stay, you know, to
give a break. And I thought, how weird that he didn't know where Sun was. And I want to make clear I am not a Rusty hater, because I tell people all the time there are people who hate Rusty and think he should be burning, and there are other people who think Rusty can do no wrong, that they love him. He would not believe the girls who were going after him thinking marriage material after all of this happened. And I always say Rusty's down the middle. He's not horrible.
He's not perfect. If you're stuck on the side of the road with a flat tire, he's going to stop and help you out. He's a good guy like that. But one I have discovered, in fact, I even know this in my own life. You're faced with a loved one who has mental illness. You don't know what to do. So one time when Andrea called him at work on this was her first psychotic break, and she says help. He came home and she was chewing her fingers, she was shaking. He did not know what to do. He
knew the beach, you know, calmed her down. The water calmed her down. So he piled all the kids into the car and with her and drove to Galveston and walked along the seawall, hoping that would calm her down. A lot of people say, that's insensitive, what a jerk, rusty. She was mentally ill. But he didn't know about mental illness. He was confused, he was scared. He didn't know what
to do. But again, you know, when she's six the second time and he's like saying, oh man, I can't take her back over to Houston because I've got this project due Is that him being a jerk or is that him being a typical NASA engineer. From what I was told by the people who live and around NASA and know the people there, that's typical. The employees work one hundred hour weeks and they are focused totally on their job. And as I said, Rusty has tunnel vision.
He doesn't see or comprehend anything that is out of his goal. Does that make him evil? Maybe? Insensitive? But I don't know if it makes him evil.
I don't see any evil. I just see how it's a bizarre situation he finds himself in. But his response, again, I don't think there can be a normal response to any of this, especially now we've spoken about her calling nine to one one the police come. You introduce that's how you open your book very masterfully. You have a reporter. Of course, no one is used to something of this magnitude, regardless of their experience. So she calls nine one. What
do the police find? Again we've talked about the murders, but what do the police find in terms of Andrea herself? What is Andrea's state when the police come? Because this is very important Later you talk about again, this is a bizarre story in American history with how much information
is leaked to the media from the police. Very bizarre. Well, let's talk about what was Andrea's state after calling nine one one and the police arriving at the home and of course what they discover, But what's her state.
Well, she's pretty much silent but cooperative, trying to be helpful. She's soaking wet, she looks kind of bizarre, you know, spaced out. But when the police needs something like where's the key or a cop or something, she points to where it is. She is cooperative, but she admits to everything. But I found it interesting that when the police handcuff her and walk her out to the police car to take her away, people who knew Andrea and see that
video on the nightly news didn't ask recognize her. They just looked at her and went, who is that sick woman? So she's as I think the defense pointed out, she can answer yes, no questions, but she cannot tell you why. You know, why did you kill the kids? I'm a bad mother, you know, That's that's why you kill kids. I mean it just nothing makes sense. But as you mentioned,
the police tape recorded the interview. But only after they had interviewed her a long time to get down a decent narrative where Okay, I know I can ask this question and will answer that. So it creates a narrative. Whether it's a truthful narrative, I don't know. It's just like how you can edit a book. You can take the facts and you can by the way you edit it can change the story up. Sure, and so you
know they're getting the narrative they want. But they did not videotape her so that you can see what she is really like that basically person that's catatonic, that you're just moving around from place to place, leading her the woman who is seeing cinder block you know, cartoons and messages in the cinder block walls. Every video I saw of Andrea that was from July. This happened June twentieth, as you mentioned, but starting in July onward, every time
she was interviewed, her glasses or cat eyed. Her clothes are following off. You know, she has on on a bra that's like the straps are falling off, and she's just she's not there. But what I was going to say is that everything is front of a cinder block wall. So when I was covering the trial, I was staying in a room with cinder block walls, and I remember going to bed at night staring at him, going, what is Andrea seeing?
What is?
You know?
I would just sort of try to figure out what the cartoons, what the messages were that she was seeing in those cinder block walls, because she would see them, and how disturbing that must have been, how frightening, how scary.
Now you talk about the combination of the Werniki's, the evangelists, her mental illness, postpartum depression, and as they talk about at the trial, postpart psychosis. We talk about labels, but as soon as she is in custody, she talks about Satan and the nature of these crimes and her belief in Satan and sixty sixty six. So tell us a little bit about what it manifests itself in terms of her beliefs about Satan and Satan's role in these crimes and her life.
Well.
As I may have mentioned earlier that doctor Lucy Perrier said that Andrea Yates would have been mentally ill no matter what, but she never would have killed her children if not for the influence of Michael Warnecki, because as I mentioned to earlier, that when a person is psychotic, they can't rationalize, make sense of, you know, things from the Old Testament, the New Testament, or anything any kind of religion. It doesn't matter if it's Christianity or something else.
It all gets twisted up in our brain. So she thought she had like I think, six six six carved in her head. She was constantly picking at her head trying to get rid of stuff. She was seeing these messages telling her, you know, you're an evil mother. You let your children eat too much sugar, too much, you know, candy.
It was just silly things that if you're a rational human being, and she's thinking this, these are messages coming from the TV that they'll be watching, you know, a TV show, and all of a sudden, these cartoons flip out and give a direct message to her and her kids, and then flash back to the story. She would get evil messages from the movie, Oh, brother, Howard, what's the
name of the movie? The James Yeah, and everything was just sending her these bizarre messages telling her how evil and crazy and horrible she will, and she believed them. And then slowly as they're trying to medicate her because when she was first arrested and they just basically threw her in a cell without anything, no clothes, know, nothing, so that she wouldn't harm herself. Yeah, incredible, and it sounds like you were about to ask a question. So that's why I stop.
Sorry. Well, at the same time, again, you juxtapose us in the book to create the incredible dynamic that's going on at that time in this area of and also nationally as well. But with the very first inklings of what's going on in terms of an I had already mentioned that police are already maneuvering, manipulating, already siding with someone already in terms of leaking this information. They know that we'll be detrimental to Andrea Yates. So this is
already overwhelm for a lot of people emotionally. So tell us about first what Russell Yates has to say about his the murder of his children and the rest of his wife, and then basically the story that the media has chose to put on the headlines, and how does the public react.
Well, it's interesting because to me, when I would interview people in the clear Lake area, like I said, I couldn't find anyone to condemn Andrea. But if I would go into the Houston area where the police are leaking
things constantly, because see, the murders happened on Wednesday. I believe the visitation for the children was the following Tuesday, and I believe it was at the visitation that Rusty was served with a gag order and that no one involved with the case, no witnesses, now, nothing could talk to the press. And Rusty was talking to the press a little bit, you know before then, you know, his
sidewalk interviews. But despite the gag order, somebody, presumably the police, were constantly leaking little details to the press, and as you mentioned, they were things that made Andrea look horrible, and the defense could not respond. The judge did eventually lift the gag order so that the defense could say that they were starting a fund to help, you know, get donations for the defense.
But that was it.
They couldn't respond to any questions. What was interesting was that even the district attorney, Chuck Rosenthal, was breaking the gag order because he spoke to sixty minutes. Rusty spoke to sixty minutes, and people would say, oh, Rusty, you know, don't do that. He said, I'm not going to get in trouble because the DA talked to him, right, And I know that when I would like be in the elevator with him going up to you know, say the competency hearing or something, and Rusty would want to talk,
but I would say, Rusty, don't do this. I don't want to get you in trouble. But the other thing was I didn't want to get myself in trouble because if you caught or did disobeyed any rule, the judge would throw you out, Like say, if you were in the courtroom and if you got sick and had to get out and run to the bathroom, you were not allowed back in. And because I quoted Rusty, because he did sit down and talk to me, when the actual trial came, the judge yanked my press credentials.
Wow.
And so I then had to go to the trial, like get to the courthouse several hours before the trial every day to then get a guest passed to get in. And then so the instead of being up where the at the front where the press was you know, was sitting, I had to be on the very back row. And so it was a rather in my opinion, vindictive judge who let things leak that she wanted but not other things.
For the first time in my life, you had to go well, let me say, in my journalist's career, to get any files, you had to go through the judge. To get the files public records, you had to go through the judge. And then after the trial was over, the first trial was over, then that was announced that the judges got order was an illegal gag order.
Interesting, you were very close to Russell Yates in terms of spending enough time with him to see him unguarded and will say guarded, and right from the very beginning. I had asked, but I want you to answer this in terms of again, not everybody would. It's not a foregone conclusion. What his response to this would be, the response to the five murders, the murders of his children. What does he say about his wife? What does he do? What's his response?
I love her? This was not Andrea. This was the illness. He stood by her for a long time. And I get kind of upset when people say that Rusty was not emotional. Again, that's sort of the NASA way, But it was rare that I ever talked to Rusty that he didn't get sort of misty eyed, and you're right, when Rusty wasn't supposed to be talking to the press.
I a friend or a woman I met, and clear Lake invited me to go to church, which was the church where Rusty was, you know, going, because Rusty and Andrea didn't have a church until this happened, and then they became he got involved with clear Lake Church of Christ, and so I got to know the pastor a little bit, and I would go to church there a few times. And as horrible it was, yes, I was going to try to see Rusty, I wasn't going.
To talk to him.
I was just going to observe, which some people would consider that kosher and others wouldn't. But then I would be invited to sit down with Rusty at the Potlack dinners after church, and Rusty knew who I was, you know, I wasn't hiding that, And so I would just observe him talking to people and maybe telling a few stories. And then at the competency hearing, I would talk to him a little bit, but again and trying to make
sure that we don't cross any lines. Just saying hey, and one of the sort of good news bad news, thanks, well, obviously it's horrible. Bad news is when all of this was going on, the day before or the day the competency hearing was supposed to start was nine to eleven.
And.
All the media who had been all over Rusty immediately left and went to New York. And that meant Rusty didn't have anyone to talk to because he didn't have a lot of friends. The media were the people he confessed to that he talked to. So with that, Rusty would call me up on Saturday nights and say, hey, I know you're a nerd to I figured you wouldn't be doing anything, thank you, Russy. And so he and I would talk, and I went down to his house one night, because I live in Austin and you know,
of course he's in Houston. I drove over there, met him at the house. We chatted for a while, and then we went out for pizza and talked for several hours, and then went back to his house and talked and talked again for a long time, in fact, until about one o'clock in the morning.
My mother got so worried that I hadn't checked in with her that she called the hotel making trust safe. I think she thought Rusty was going to do something to me. I don't know, but he's not that kind of guy. And I'm sorry, I have to throw sub levity into this or I'll start crying. And so, yeah, I spent many hours with him and then like many hours on the phone on Saturdays, there are Saturday nights. He was at an anti death penalty rally here in Austin.
I met him there and spent time with him. Just before the trials. I went with a bunch of other reporters or actually I think it was TV news people to dinner with him and would talk to him during the trial. I also got to know Andrea's favorite brother and her mother during all of this. And two, I think, are just a wonderful family. And so how does Rusty deal with this?
I believe you were saying, And what does he What I think what I was going to say is he would always say publicly, I support her. You know, this is not Andrea who did this. This is a sick woman. But yet he would go and try to fix up the house and clean it up an anticipation of Andrea coming home but then he would also privately express, oh, no, how does this work if we ever had kids again? And I couldn't believe it even think about that, but
if can I trust her with the kids. So there was this argument constantly going on in his brain about wanting my wife back because I know that the person she really is is not the woman who killed the kids. But oh my gosh, she killed my kids. Is she ever gonna do something to me as well as future? So he was really torn.
The incredible feature of this for people that live outside of America is that not every country is they would find this reaction to this crime. It's completely different. We had a case in Winnipeg, Canada, approximately two years ago where ironically or very quite similar, the woman was a fugitive, but they had found the children drowned in the bathtub. And in Canada because of course, we believe that we've
evolved from the American system. Honestly, I'm not being a bit sarcastic, but it's a different mentality, and that people assumed, the media especially assumed, and the people followed that of course she must be suffering from postpartum depression, that's why she did that. There was no call for the you know, the fugitive to be hunted down, the murderous of her children. It was a complete opposite of what we see now that didn't happen that long ago. We're not talking about
ancient history here with Andrea Yates. So tell us about the prosecution and what it was trying to do. We already alluded to the death penalty, but try to ca actually what you do in the book that the fervor behind the prosecution of Andrea Yeats.
Oh god, it's just as you had brought up earlier about the reaction of people in Houston, And like you say, it wasn't just Houston, it was the entire nation. Because I believe I quoted in the book some sources on postpartum depression and psychosis out of Canada and the totally different attitude. England, I think has a totally different attitude.
Even while this was going on, there was a case going on in California where they, you know, were understanding, this is a mental illness, we need to get her healthy, and that the sometimes hate that people would express. I remember doing radio shows where people would say, this could never happen in my family, and I'm going. Mental illness happens everywhere, you know, No, it could never happen in
my family. She should burn And I still see this like on true crime websites and how evil and horrible, and the anger and the rage, particularly about the prosecutor, Kylin Wilford, it would just astound me. And so one day I saw Kaylen at a restaurant or something and I said, Helen, are you really believing everything you're saying?
And she said, oh, yes and more.
And I just get amazed at the rage. But then I'm not a mother and she is, so maybe that's the difference. But I look at this is let's learn from this so that we can prevent it from happening again. And the prosecution's attitude is the only way you're going to learn is to punish them. But if someone is mentally ill, do they really think punishment's going to matter? Andrea Yates wanted to be punished. She wanted to plead guilty so that they would put her to death. Does
that even make sense? But the rage was there. But Joe Amby, who was the other prosecutor, I think he changed over time that he learned from this because he would go to conventions and stuff after this and talk about postpartum depression and psychosis, and he would do it with sensitivity from the learning point of view. And he is no longer with the prosecutor's office, So you're right. The prosecution went, we don't want them to talk about
mental illness. We want them to see the clothing that the children were wearing, the photos of the autopsy photos. We're going to make her look.
As evil as horrible as possible.
And they succeeded, at least they succeeded with the help of false testimony.
You know, we're all familiar with the phrase of vigorous defense, but this seemed like a vigorous prosecution in that this case hinges greatly on the testimony of an expert witness. Now we're going to introduce Park Deats and people will recognize that name. He's a criminal profiler from the Quantico Bunch after Robert K. Wrestler and John Douglas, So he's from one of those criminal profiler pioneers. And also that he is a consultant for the famous show that I
spoke about in direct TV in Law and Order. And so tell us about first the initiative and the desire to have Park Deats as a expert psychiatrist doctor that would testify at the trial. And also we want to mention, and we spoke to this before about some people have a criticism of these kinds of people, especially when his price tag is five hundred dollars an hour and we're
talking about fifty thousand dollars for his paycheck. So talk about explain why they chose Park Dats, what they thought they were going to or what they felt they were going to prove with his testimony. Tell us a little bit about Park Deats and his testimony.
Mister celebrity walks in with his tin and his fancy clothes and ties and just sits down and the witness chair like it's a lounge chair at a Miami beach, you know, swimming pool, Like bring me my umbrella, drink, and y'all are all my subjects and maybe I'll tip you and maybe not. That's probably me being overreactive. As you can tell, I was unimpressed with the man because
he is so impressed with himself. And also when he but he is a great expert witness and that he gets every testimony in at least three times he would say it, he would put it up on a you know, the video or the overhead projector the power point. You know, he would and then he would sum it up or whatever. And he got it in every time, three times, and the defense was only allowed to their stuff in once.
And then he would edit the video that he because he interviewed Andrea quite a bit, and then edit it into video clips and he would leave out pertinent parts so that it made her well, it didn't tell the true story. And the defense would come in and would try to fill in the parts of the story that he left out. But again, when you're hearing that once
compared to the three times, it's just totally biased. And by the way, the judge on the case is now with the DA's office, which is probably where she belonged. But obviously you can tell I'm not fond of the judge. She yanked my press credentials. I'm biased. But at one point Rusty was asked if Andrea liked the TV show Law and Order, and he looked confused and said yes,
and he said we watched it together. And then part dates as you said, who was a consultant for Law and Order, said that there was an episode of a woman of the TV show of a woman who drowned her kids and got away got off on an insanity plea. And then in the closing eyems, the prosecution said that Andrea used this as a blueprint for murder. Now, my friend Suzanne O'Malley, guess I'm giving a plug for her book over mine.
But I really want you to read my book. And my book, as I.
Mentioned, came out before the trial. Suzanne wrote one after and Suzanne and I were at dinner after this testimony, and Suzanne used to write for Law and Order, and she was on the phone while we were having Mexican food with the producer of Law and Order and said, was there ever an episode like this? And he said absolutely not. So Suzanne then went to the defense and said, this is false testimony. This never happened. She hooked them up with the prosecute, I mean with the Law and
Order producer. They took this to the court, to the judge, and all she did was stipulate that you know, there had been no such episode, and so of course the defense asked for a mistrial. She would not allow it. She told the in one word, if I remember correctly, and one phrasing told the jury to ignore that, you know, testimony, but then in the next sent it's like, consider all the testimony. So then they came back with a guilty verdict.
And then later on years later, it ended up that the conviction was overturned because of the false testimony that part Deeps gave.
Now let's explain a little bit more why that is. Let's I'll go back to sort of my interpretation of this in terms of park Deats was on there to do the almost the unspeakable as a psychiatrist claimed that, of course she was psychotic or at some point, but however she saw law and Order episode, which again he more than eludes and intimates that that was a conniving, psychopathic, planning kind of person that would take that program and
be influenced to kill her own children. And he kept they kept getting him to answer questions in his cross examination or his direct examination to speak to the wrongfulness of her actions despite her mental illness. So it was very and you captured in the book how really had to straddle a sort of a ridiculous line. And from
that trial that was not done well at all. There was grounds for appeal and of course the defense learned from that first trial and learned some very valuable lessons which assisted them greatly in the second trial, didn't they.
Oh yes, And like you were saying part deeps when he was on you know, testifying. One day he's like, yeah, she was not mentally ill. She was blah blah blah, you know, and she was not psychotic in everything. And then the next day he's like, eh, oh, well, yeah, and he sort of tended that, yes, she was, you know, suffering psychosis, but that was a few minutes later, you know, one when she was actually drowning the kids, it was
a few minutes later. And like there would be things where he'd say, uh, if if she truly were, you know, trying to save the children, she would have been praying for them. And so then he cuts out the video where she says, what were you doing? And she said praying for them, but he cuts that out. And because her answers would change from time to time, because one, she's a mentally ill person suffering psychosis, And the videos
were taken at different dates. There were videos made by one psychiatrist in July, others made in November, and by then her psychosis is declining, you know, they're getting it under more control, so her answers are going to change. So it didn't ever make sense that he was trying to apply November answers to her actions back and June. And you're right, the prosecute, I mean, the defense learned from this one. They said that park Deats was never
the same when they came back to trial. The other expert witness they brought in was a little too slick, and the city had learned from that. Plus all these years later, the county of Harris County where Houston is, had learned and understood postpartum depression, psychosis and mental illness better.
And as you said, their own witnesses, who had never been you know, not none of them, but many of them had never testified before, learned a little bit better about what to expect and knew what how to handle things better.
And like you say, to the nation had evolved in a short period of time, and this case was a catalyst for that. Because this was on Newsweek, and like you say, sixty minutes, this dominated mainstream media and captivated and fascinated the American society. And like you say it, because of this case and other cases, but especially this case that it really galvanized this issue in America by that time. The thing that I want to ask, and this is, I think this is mind boggling to me.
I couldn't even believe I was reading this that there was some consideration by the prosecution of charging Russell Yates. Tell us on how on earth they could even imagine and what would they charge Russell Yates for? Potentially that's why.
They didn't is they couldn't think of anything. I really think that was a pr ploy. I think that it was a pr ploy to go for the death penalty. It was a pr ploy to satisfy the voters of Harris County to say we're looking into Rusty Yates because so many wanted him to burn and to this day still do.
So.
I don't think they ever had any intention of pursuing that. It was just okay, you know, we yeah, we're going to tell the public dis That is my personal opinion, and as a journalist I shouldn't express that, but hey, that's my personal opinion.
It is incredible to me as well, the importance and the undue negative influence that politics has in the judiciary. When you have sheriffs and district attorneys using cases to
again pr public relations. You should be embarrassed at the public relations that you're doing when the husband is supportive of the woman and is totally against the death penalty, and the state usually gives lip service to the idea that they care about what the victims, and this man is a victim, what the victim would have to say in terms of how he thought his wife should be treated and if he was totally against the death penalty. This is another slap in the face of Russell Yates.
And then to even consider that he might be charged based on again the input from the maybe ridiculous community in their attitude.
So yeah, where I live in Travis County, Texas, I have had prosecutors tell me we always consider the victim's family and what they want, and if they say don't go for the death penalty, we won't go for it, but that it didn't matter there. You know, we'd Rusty's family wrote and begged to not go for the death penalty, Andrea's family there was not one person, not one family
member that wanted the death penalty. And you know, I get a lot of people who jump on me wanting me to totally slam Rusty Yates, and I won't do it because I've never been the parent of five kids who died, and I respect that what he has gone through, and I am not going to slam a man who has lost five children and his wife.
Let's just talk quickly because we don't have that much time. But I want to talk quickly about the reversal at the second trial and what was the result for Andrea Yates. Again, you capture it and painted an incredible portrait of what happened after that and what was her mental state. So tell us what happened at the second trial and as a result, what was Sir Fate.
Well, they could not go for the death penalty again because that would have been double jeopardy. So that way they could not get a death qualified jury because you know, people who believe in the death penalty are more than likely going to are more likely to convict than people who don't believe in the death penalty. So that went
for them. The education that we've already talked about about the nation that it's calmed down about this, that part deets was no longer credible and that the defense was more credible this time with their witnesses, and so all of that worked out so that the end result is the exact same result the state would have had if they had never prosecuted her and sent her straight to a mental health facility. Because she is now living at the Kerrville State Hospital, which is a mental health facility.
She will be there for the rest of her life. And the Harris County taxpayers have been out millions of dollars for this trial. And if the DA's office had done what I believe would have been the right thing to send her straight to a mental health facility, they could have saved all that money and had the exact same result.
You describe Andrea Yeats in the hospital. There's been progress, but what is her mental state?
According to her attorney, she's now doing pretty well. After she was convicted, it would be up and down, up and down. She would start getting healthier, and then she would realize what she had done and she would go back into psychosis and are try to kill herself by perhaps starving herself to death. Then Rusty finally divorced her. I broke the story that Rusty wanted to you know, had asked her for a divorce because he did not
want to look like the bad guy. Rusty didn quit speaking to me at that point because he wanted Andrea to file for the divorce so he wouldn't look like the bad guy, and she refused, so they eventually divorced, which I think kind of freed her up over time
that they are still in touch. I got emphasized that he sees her and talks to her ever so often, but she has gotten to a point where her medications are leveled out, and that she is living a somewhat productive life in that the staffs and other inmates at
the state hospital are basically her friends and family. She does crafts that are sold anonymously at craft shows, and there's a photo of some of her crafts in the book, and then she takes that money and donates it to the YH Children or the Postpartum Foundation that has been founded after all of this, so that she's not keeping the money or anything. She's not getting rich or anything
like that. She is just getting by. There was a time where she wanted to be able to get out because her mother is very, very ill, and she wanted to take care of her mother, and that did not happen. She wanted to be able to just go to church, you know, to leave the campus for a little bit to go to church. The church was okay with it, the hospital was okay with it, but other people weren't.
So that's been you know, just but I'm rambling all around to tell you it ain't been easy for because she realizes what she did and she can't handle it, and she's trying to and she is trying to make amends and be a decent member of society as much of a society as she can in a state hospital.
The interesting difference between Canada and say, Britain and other countries too is that there is the possibility of a person deemed not criminally responsible for being deemed sane. I guess that wouldn't be the distinction, but they would be released from a hospital for those that fear that that's what this really is, rather than have somebody thrown into a hospital immediately, the public fears that this person may be released someday by some well meaning psychiatrist and sort
of sympathetic body or other in charge parole board. What are the possibilities or the potential for Andrea Yates of ever being released from the hospital.
Well, the judge, the judge is the one who would sign off on this, and I don't think a judge would ever do that. And George Parnham, Andrea's attorney, told me that after they saw the reaction of Andrea just trying to get out to go to church and come back, that they said that's it. They're never going to try to get her released, and that she you know, she doesn't really have I mean, she has family, but I don't think any that she could go live with right now.
Her mother is very very ill, her favorite brother Brian is deceased, and so she feels safe and secure at the Kerville Hospital, and so they have no desire or intention of ever letting her even apply to the judge to get out again.
In this as we wrap this up, is there some concern for the as you put out, as you point out in the book, that this ten day psychiatric deadline for people because of insurance that the insurance had run out. Is this really a big concern for people that are listened to this story and now hearing other stories be a reason a reasonable person one day turns into a
murder another day. There is this a valid issue, the idea that the America deals with mental patients inadequately because of the insurance model that they have.
Well, I think part of it is the taboo and the expense. I wish I were more knowledgeable on this about how things have changed with Obamacare, and I'm not, but I would like to dream and think that there's a little bit of more you know, mental health understanding. And now you're making me want to pull out my insurance policy and look at it to see what it exactly says. But yes, I think it's still an issue because psychiatric care is expensive. Psychiatric medicines are expensive.
You know.
Yeah, I'm looking at you mentioned in the book that you've talked about. I was surprised as well, because there's obviously different prices, but that the medication that you was prescribed the second time around was six to seven hundred dollars per month. If that was not just one medication, but it was six or seven hundred dollars is daunting for a lot of people. That additional seven hundred dollars.
Fifteen years ago, or that was nearly fifteen years ago, can you imagine what it is today? So, yeah, I think we still have you know, severe prejudices against mental illness and how to treat it from an insurance point of view as well as from a public point of view.
I still have letters and emails from people, primarily these days, emails saying thank you for speaking out about mental illness because I've suffered from horrible depression or I've suffered from this, and I'm embarrassed to say this because I talk about because of this case that I have been to a psychiatrist, I have, you know, used medications, psychotropic drugs and everything, because one, I've always suffered depression and after this case,
I did horribly. And I am far from the only journalists or even someone I know people who were witnesses in the trial who had to go on antidepressants after this case because it got to us so badly. So anything I can do to get people to talk about this and not be ashamed of it. I mean, look at the TV show Nashville Now and their postpartum depression storyline, and Hayden and I never can pronounce her last name
starts with a P who employs Juliette Barnes. How she has gone public right now, just in the past few weeks about her postpartum depression, how Brooke Shields has talked about it, how Marie Osmon, and as long as we can get people to talk about it instead of being ashamed of it and realize that it's not a matter of just buck up, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, that this is a real illness that can be treated.
That's what I want people to learn from from this, that one mental illness can happen in the best of families, the worst of families in between. Doesn't matter your education, your income level, you're smart, it can happen, and if it does, don't be ashamed. It's like cancer, the flu or whatever. Get to a doctor and get help.
I think the thing is in just in closing too, though, is that with the differences in say Canada, for example, we also have to be cautious. And I think that's what some of the more the audience that seems to be savvy, you know, law enforcement people, people in corrections, people into judiciary that really are pessimistic because of their experience, realize that the difference sometimes is the psychiatrist and the
attorney's depiction of mental illness. So people are justifiably skeptical because they do see cases in Canada and other jurisdictions where the mental illness is used as an excuse for again, it should not be included with other valid, mentally ill defendants. And so I think that's what some people are skeptical about.
How again, an unscrupulous psychiatrist paired with another unscrupulous attorney can use the same amount of information and these kinds of cases to represent their clients, again when they're not
really mentally ill. And again you might not see examples glaring examples in America, but if you were to go over the border and look at some interesting cases like the doctor Turcotte case in Montreal right now, where he has stabbed his kids forty nine times and was into a mental institution and only served six months in that institution and was deemed mentally insane because of depression. So I think there is some validity to some of the skepticism.
But as your book points out, this is an historic case where it seemed to be a clear cut case of a woman just going off the rails from postpartum depression and psychosis, while the mental health professionals either looked the other way in the insurance company and in the confluence of events created this very very tragic situation that again, like you say, hopefully hopefully this book will help people understand the situation and somehow hopefully that this might be avoided just even once.
Yeah, I think that's the point that I would say, this could have been prevented if we're not so ashamed of mental health issues, This could have been prevented. And in the United States, I think I'm sure that somebody could give me examples of someone who was you know, found not guilty by reason of insanity and got out. But I think it's going to be a lot harder to get out of a mental health facility in the United States just because of our attitudes. And I may be very wrong.
Uh.
Look at Robert Durst, who was obviously mentally ill, as you know, been charged with one crime that he got
off of and then charged with another crime. And it's going to be interesting to me to see what happens with that because his attorney is Dick Degaron, who was the attorney in another book I wrote, The Fortune Hunter, which was about the two people who met in a mental health facility and then killed someone, you know, planned it together and to me that in that case his client there, I said, if that's not not guilty by reason of insanity, that one would have been one he
could have done as a woman named Celeste Beard, because in Texas, the baseline is did they know the difference between right and wrong when they committed the crime? And Celeste Beard in that case the Fortune Hunter, I say, she didn't because whatever Celeste wanted was right, you know, that was her belief. And so it's going to be really interesting to me to see how Dick Degeron handles the Robert Durst case out in Beverly Hills.
Well, again, it's another issue too, because the Durst case is incredible when you have a multi millionaire and the means to have the best lawyer in the country, and that's arguable too if he's the best, but at least when you have the means. So that's that's almost a different dynamic just because of the money involved. But yes, again that's you did allude to that, that is your I guess we'll have to have you back on to
talk about Fortune Hunter as well. So tell us a little bit about Fortune Hunter before we let you go. In anticipation of you coming back on and talking about that.
Well, the Fortune Hunter is really interesting because the judge and one of the defendants, Tracy Charlton, and I all went to the same summer camp. And Tracy Charlton again one of the defendants. She worked was a manager at book People bookstore, which used to be may probably still
is the largest and best independent bookstore in Texas. And Tracy has done did a lot to promote my first book, Wasted, and she met at a mental health facility a woman named Celeste Beard who Celeste was a young, attractive, charming, but yet vile woman who married an old man, a rich old man, and couldn't wait for him to die, so coaxed Tracy into trying to kill him. And all of that happened just a few blocks from where I was living at the time, so it was a case that.
I have a lot of connections to close to home. Yeah, me see, absolutely. Well, it's been great, Susie's talking about Breaking Point. This has turned into a real true crime classic, especially with the addition of this additional information and still the fascination with people trying to understand how somebody, how anyone could do something like this and how it can
even be possible, so incredible story. Congratulations on the new edition of the book, and thank you for coming on and talking about Breaking Point and we look forward to talking to you in the near future.
Thank you very much.
All Right, thank you.
Good night, Susie, good night.