BOY MISSING-Rebecca Morris

claim you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com and live the Chumba Lane.

Where is Kiren Horman? Why hasn't the woman who police suspect is responsible for him twenty ten disappearance, Kyen's stepmother been charged that the seven year old disappeared from his grade school got the attention of parents around the world. The twists of the case adultery, sexting, murder for hire,

keep the story in the media spotlight. New York Times best selling author Rebecca Morris tells the minute by minute, day by day story of the long investigation the search for Kyen in his family's heartache, based on years of

research and interviews with Chyen's family. Boy Missing also examines what recourse families have as they wait for a loved one to be found, and challenges a common assumption in no body cases that prosecutors must wait until there is a confession or remains are found, no body cases can be prosecuted successfully. The book that we're featuring this evening is Boy Missing, The Search for Kyne Horman, with my

special guest, journalist and author Rebecca Moore. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Rebecca Morris.

extra people not a normal day at this school. Tell us about this, Yeah, no it wasn't.

a diorama. Worked very hard on this. So there were four hundred extra people in this small rural school on June tenth because they were you know, parents' grandparents, siblings who'd come on that Friday to see the science exhibits. Kiren lived with his father and his step mother. That's the long story we'll get into. I'm sure about why he was only part time with his birth mother, who is uh a couple hundred miles south in Oregon. But

his l stepmother said that they walked around school. She took a picture of him in front of his red eyed tree frog exhibit, and then she said she waved to him as he went into his classroom and she and her nineteen month old Uh, baby girl. UH left for for several hours. When uh Cain Horman, Karen's father and his stepmother, Terry Hormon, went to meet the bus in the afternoon, Uh Uh Kyron wasn't on the bus

and they immediately rushed to the school. Uh. One of the the fattest parts of this is he'd been missing six hours before anybody knew he was missing. That's a lot. That's a lot of time when uh, after a child is is abducted or or missing a long time.

think that we might understand today president at schools. Yeah, but tell us about right no cameras as well, and very important tell us about the living situation that Kyen was in with his father Kine, the stepmother Terry, and his real mother Desiree and her new husband Tony tell us about the situation and why Desirie was not Kyen was not principally living with Desiree.

When Desiree was had divorced her second husband came somebody somebody said, you need a scorecard to keep track of all the marriages, And that's that's the v That's very possible. But she also had a a son by an earlier UH marriage. And you know, Desiree never had good health. She went to UH Canada UH one summer to to seek some medical treatment, and when she came back, the two men who were the fathers of her sons would

not give the children back. She's fat fought a long court battle, and a judge finally decided and poor one that the boys should stay where they'd been living for a couple of years and it was just kind of heartbreaking. So, uh, Desiree did have you know, partial custody and both boys uh when when Kyne was seven, uh her other son was fifteen at the time, I believe, And so they

spent you know, a lot. Half half their lives were in Medford with with the Tony and Desiree, but but half their lives were with their father respective fathers and stepmothers and step siblings in the Portland area. It was that weekend, June tenth, was I'm sorry, June fourth was uh,

Desiree's weekend to get the boys. So she was driving, she would have been driving to Portland anyway to pick up the boys, but she got a phone call from the school's secretary around four o'clock, you know, notifying her that Kyne was missing. And course she you know, really rushed up to Portland. Then everybody kind of assumed it was probably you know, he was taken from the school, or he went wandering outside during the confusion and was

lost or something. But it was you know, actually a much darker kind of you know, missing child story.

like it was planned because she picked today. Uh if she is responsible for Comment's disappearance, and we think so she picked today when there'd be a lot of confusion at the school. And she said that she'd parked in the school parking lot and she didn't and and was actually caught later in in several lives. But as you mentioned, the doors were open, there were no security cameras, no name takes nothing. She they walked around looking at the

science exhibits. The the reason that he that nobody knew kyron was gone was that, uh his second grade teacher knew he was because Terry, the stepmother, had sent her an email a couple of days before that she'd be taking Kyroen to a doctor's appointment, and so the teacher marked him absent, but it was called an excused absence.

And because there, you know, in the corner of the room was Kyrone's jacket and backpack where they had left it, and that he was going to the doctor, well Terry said she left him at school, and in fact, the doctor's appointment was uh reportedly for a week later. So just you know, the confusion, that simple, the that that

confusion just just caused a a lot more confusion. So it wasn't until the uh a m until he didn't get off the school us six hours later that the school knew he was really missing and hadn't come back

after some doctor's appointment. And there are other really significant lives that Terry Hormon was caught in I report for the first time in the book that she was seen leaving the school with him and with her infant daughter, that there were there were a couple of adults and classmates of cards who saw her leave the school with him. So that's that's pretty powerful, you know, circumstantial evidence.

our audience who Tony is. And also this is quite a drive before they get to the house, before they get to Terry and their ex husband Kine's how and again the surprising, the surprises once they get there, the things that don't seem right to them, tell us about who Tony is, and a little bit about their visit and their impression when they got to the home of Terry.

really for ten years. And so they were told and Tony was told, you know, don't go near the command center, don't talk, don't talk to cops up here. And you know, he knew there was a good reason for that, but they were there observing, and you know, you can, you can dim the switch a little, but she can't turn it off. And so their impressions were, you know, terribly important to the book. The book was pretty difficult to do because it's an open case and that means there's

no case file to look at. Detectives aren't gonna talk to you you know, there's no there's been no charging, there's no you know, trial transcript, none of that. So the people that were there, uh, observing and watching uh

were very important to this. But what you're l what you're referring to, is when Tony and Desiree finally arrive at at to Kane's house where Kiren lived, you know, the stepmother, Terry Horman, throws open the door and welcomes them and greets them and says there's lots of food that's been dropped off and they said it's literally it was so weird. It was like she was hosting a party. There was nothing said about gush. I'm sorry, uh there.

You know, she hadn't been crying. Everybody else was crying, but she just acted like, you know, shoes kind of host to sing a party.

had a base of operations there. But here you have you know, uh, a blended family, a family that had not blended very well mm and who didn't really like each other very much. And uh uh although Tony and and Desiree you know got along uh fairly well with k with Kane, especially that that first year that Kyerne was missing, but it was just strange. They they had to all sleep there and stay there, and if they were eating, they ate meals there, and that lasted lasted

several days. And it's so I think the police were really smart about, you know that observing, uh, the interactions and having people observe Terry Horman who you know, were not married to her, who were i you know, in her life, but but who were you know, could be somewhat maybe a little bit have er observations that her husband might have. They did kind of align themselves with Cain Terry's husband early on and had him wearing a

wire nobody else knew about it. But that lasted several days, and then eventually Desiree and Tony were allowed to move to a motel, but they had to spend their days still back at the house, and there was a command center nearby for you know, all law enforcement, just you know, like forty agencies. But Bill the House was kind of ground zero for those.

Beney ram See. It was, it was huge, and it was you know, uh, the the the parents, just Cane and as Ray, they were on uh doctor Phil, they were on Oprah datelined, I mean, and and not only in that in that at that time, but national media continues to cover this, including uh the tenth anniversary, which was uh just two two weeks ago, as you know, So it's it's a big story locally, a big story nationally and the fact that you know that a child like you said in the lead that a child miss

missing from their school is pretty unusual, and Ernie Allen, who's the retired now head of nick NICK, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in both this country and in Europe, has said that you know where, where a child goes missing from the situation has a lot to do with how the story is covered by the media and what catches. You know, what catches.

to the media, to do everything she possibly could, and then still did more. Lay became an advocate and dedicated her life to the cause, and still held out hope for that her boy was still alive, remarkably after all these years. Tell us a little bit more about Desiree and the efforts and the extent that she did to keep this story alive, to have other people involved and everything she did. Tell us a little bit more.

early on he's dead, but she wants him back. She will do anything that she can, and it's really I think what Uh. One of the things that's really unique about her is that she, you know, is a CoP's wife, she's a detective's wife, so she knew there were parameters to what she could do and that sometimes the most effective thing is to let the person who's the suspect,

you know, ramp talk, uh, look bad, paint themselves. You know, Uh they're let them, let them do damage to themselves, as as Terry Horman did with this, and kind of in a way, you're doing everything you can for your son, but you're also respectful of things have to play out. And I think she was, you know, is terribly wise

in a way that that most parents wouldn't be. That the woman who did this most likely is going to be her own worst enemies, and uh that that eventually, you know, uh, she'll get tripped up, and she has been. She has been tripped up several times. But uh, Desiree has uh done some things that that I don't know, uh,

that most parents maybe wouldn't do. She after the first couple of years of searching, which was extensive, and and I'll mention that, but she's organized some private searches and you know, she she does it and then she tells the police who are still investigating, you know that, oh tomorrow, I've got some you know, trained searchers coming in and we were volunteering to to go over some places. So she was, you know, pretty savvy in that way. And she admits the very first time they did that, they

didn't know what they were doing. But she and her sister, who is at her side all the time, they they figured out how to do this. But the search was extensive. It was hundreds of thousands of acres. And what complicated it is that it wasn't you know, they don't live in a city like you know, Elizabeth Smart was taken in Utah from from the home. It was in the middle of a city, and then you know, kept for a while up in back on this wooded hillside. This is a rural area. So they had the the roads

and I've driven them many times in that area. Are you know it's it's it's you know, old forest. It's very steep terrain on one side and then ravines on the other side. The areas they had to search were

just extremely dense. We're talking you know, chest high ferns and bushes and woods, and they which part of the geography that may also play a part of the story is that just to the east is where two rivers, the Columbia the Willamite meet, and there's an island saw the island there, and there are you know, ponds, lakes, marshes, And there's this story that may be an urban myth, or may not be an urban myth, that fisherman, you know,

went overboard one day and was never seen again. Because the current will take you to the Pacific Ocean, which is just one hundred miles away. So the current very fast and there's all this water. Terry Horman, one of the most important things is she's off the grid for two and a half hours that morning after she supposedly left Chylan at school. She said she was driving around trying to quiet her infant daughter, that she had a earache, and uh, she stopped at two stores looking for motron.

You can't see by the angles of the camera if there's anybody in the you know, on the floor of the h a truck or back feet or anything. But she does buy some stuff and then she's, you know, nowhere to be seen for two and a half hours. Her cell phone ping's on a tower that's right in the middle between the island and the rivers I told you about. And then right where the where the school is. And she just said she was driving back roads trying to keep her daughter uh asleep, and it's po you

know there there's some sightings of her truck. Uh. She said she pulled over and you know, changed the diaper or something. Then she uh stopped at her gym. Uh she lied about how long she was there, and and then she's back home and you know on Facebook and post the fix the picture if she took of Kiren at school and touching base with Desiree about the picture, and then she and her little girl and Kyen's father walked to meet the bus and and he's not on

the bus. So Uh. There's also a friend of uh of Terry Hormon's, we find out a couple of weeks later who's missing from her job during that same two hours, that's right. And they've never been able to you know, decide if she was you know, if Terry picked her up and she helped her or what she what she knew. Uh, they're pretty close mouths about all this. And then eventually in the first couple of weeks so Terry Rmon fails to light detect her tests and walks away on the.

or or appeared before a grand jury. So they didn't they didn't you know, have uh uh uh uh uh much much p place to go. The law enforcement didn't uh after that except trying to pick apart her timeline which you know, the parents were all asked that first evening, you know, get into a timeline, tell us exactly where you were.

So even after her first one where she talks about topping stopping at the two UH stores looking promotron, then she cooked up other places that she said she stopped, but there was no for any proof that she stopped at the dry cleaners or stopped at the arts and craft store. But it just got very muddy very quickly, and all the parents, you know, were pretty suspicious of her very quickly.

Fun box. Every box is curated specifically to each person. Because you select what goes into your box each season. It's the perfect way to treat yourself or someone else get the products you really want when you customize your box online. With most of the items customizable, the boxes sellow fast, so sign up for yours today. Also connect with women throughout the world in fabfit Funds community forum. Join a member's only club for cooking or books, or

meet new friends to swap products with. Fabfit Fun is a seasonal subscription box with full size beauty, fitness, fashion and lifestyle products. Sign up today to receive your first box and join a community of over one million women are already obsessed. Use coupon code murder for ten dollars off your first box at fabfitfund dot com. It retails for forty nine to ninety nine, but always has a value over two hundred. That's ten dollars off when you

use code murder at fabfitfun dot com. Now, Rebecca, we were talking about the everyone looking at the only suspect it's seemed in this case was Terry Horman. But Desiree and Tony are privy to some things from the investigators that are in this task force and are trying to solve this case, and they're finding more and more about Terry's personal life, the relationship with Cain, but also a possible motive for why she would want to harm Kiren.

Tell us about a little bit of the information she finds out in this investigation.

to said this this color coding, you know, uh, disciplined system just didn't exist. It simply didn't exist. And so Doesiray realized that that you know when when, and she wishes she'd she thought Kyro, she thought King I'm sorry she thought Kyron as far as you know, crying when he was in Medford and saying he didn't wanna go

back to Portland. You know, everybody thought it was just kind of a normal, you know, a step family kind of situation that is not unneat, but she uh Doesirey found out a couple of months uh into this, that Terry had been uh emailing friends talking about how much she hated Kyron and uh how much she didn't wanna be, you know, a stepmother and his stepmother, and that in fact,

Cain and Terry been having uh marriage problems. She found out that they had fought uh til three a m. On the night that in the morning that that Kyron went missing, and uh Terry thought King was having an affair, and uh uh she you know, the motive seemed to be that she wanted Terry wanted to get out of this marriage and have custody of her daughter, the nineteen month old girl, and whatever she had to do to

get rid of both Cain and Karen. And the the only good thing I can say about Terry Horman is that uh uh the year before, in two thousand nine, she tried to get Cain to let Kyra and go live with Desiree in Medford, and the you know, Terry, the stepmother, tried to do that and Kane wouldn't allow it. Yeah, and so then it became how does she get rid of both of them? Maybe get you know, really get

rid of Kane and have his life insurance. Send Chiren back to Desiree and then she and her daughter would you know, have the life insurance and start a new life. It sounds crazy, I mean it was, it is sure, but that appeared to be her motive, whatever it would take to be rid of both her husband and her stepson, and that's what she you know, undertook.

And uh this is you know, we're a little bit unclear about exactly what happened, but John was sent to Roseberg, where where Terry's parents lived, so he lived with his grandparents, and uh Caine said it happened when he was out of town. But uh Terry blamed Kane and blamed Kyroen for that, that that her son was sent away, but that you know, Kyen could still live there. So all of this was building up, uh Cain said. Later admitted wh when a in a in divor both divorce and

uh custody battle. Also that uh Terry was drinking a lot. He'd found her passed out at night with you know, with the two young children, uh kind of you know, on their own there. And uh years before before she married, uh came, she'd had uh a not uh quite a number of speeding tickets and and tickets, but she'd also had a ady with her son in the car, which is pretty serious business. That's in you know, y you lose your license for a year and you have to

go to alcohol counseling and everything. If you have a minor in in the car when you're stopped. So things were kind of you know, coming to light over time. But but to find out, as desiree found out that that Terry really hated kyn and you know, wanted something to happen to him, that was you know, that was that was pretty disturbing.

and that we talk about sexting and adultery. So that's what really gets people's attention, even more so than than a boy kidnapped from a school. But this is really gets people interested. So there wasn't an opportunity by the prosecutors to try to attempt to do something to pressure Terry.

to find somebody that would kill her husband. So could his name's Rodolpho Sanchez. Would he help her find somebody who could you know, who'd be a hit man? And she offered him ten thousand dollars and you know, he didn't say much and turned her down apparently, But eventually the police find him and she had also as early as the fall of two thousand and nine, several months before talked to somebody else about could could they help

her find a hitman? And so they send Rodolpho the landscaper with an undercover cop wearing a wire to the house and to talk to Terry and basically to tell her to ask her, are you still interested? You know, are you still interested in finding somebody to kill your husband? And she was suspicious and didn't fall for it and called the police in fact, uh uh not realizing they were the police. And uh so she that she couldn't wasn't really implicated uh in that, but but they believed that.

Uh when she said that, uh, the uh landscape her had you know, come on to her, and he was getting back at her because she turned her down. But he he he initially said that she had you know, she'd also propositioned him sexually. So it just got really messy. Uh. Within also a week or two of that, they well, when they told me before I moved forward, when they told kin about you know, she tried to hire somebody

to kill you. So he and and the y daughter flee the house and she finds herself, you know, all alone there. But also within a couple of weeks they

uh they offer her a deal. They have all kinds of you know, she's been uh sexting a uh guy who is a class high school classmate of Knes and who's hanging around a lot, and they've got new pictures of her that she sent and uh sexting, and and they said, uh, you know, she'll tell them where where Kyne is, they'll they'll make a deal with her and not reveal all this, and she she turned it down, so they they let all that information come out, which

is something you know, doctor Phil really uh dug into and you know loved to blow up on the on the screen when she was on the show with him. She did her own two hour interview with doctor Phil a few years later. So she's offered a deal. Meanwhile, her friend and from who was also off the grid that day, missing from her job, moves into house with

her for eleven days or something. Yeah, and uh uh there are people that think that dedes By sher knows exactly what happened and what happened to kyn She was she said she talked to the grand jury eventually, Uh Desiree's not sure of that. She was deposed in uh uh later in a civil lawsuit that that Desiree brought against Terry Hormon, and uh she just you know, she

played the the Fifth Amendments. I think it's a hundred and forty nine times during her d deposition, so uh not much information from there this I I will say it's it was really interesting the because the police didn't want the parents to speak, uh initially M and you know, you see you s see everything you see uh people like you know, like Elizabeth Smart's parents who who uh spoke about her and and Susan Cox Powell's parents, and and then the parents who you know are lying about

their missing children, like like Susan Smith and uh Casey Anthony and but the police, as we were talking about, kept kept uh very a very low profile with the parents on this. So the media, you know, all they could do is get into the juicy stuff, which which very much upset Desiree that m you know, they'd be folke.

The the lot of the stories at that time focused on you know, the sexting, the marriages, the you know, their Desiree and family wouldn't talk to the media, but Terrrie Horman's friends would tell the media, well, Terry's really the boy his mother Terry raised and you know, he thinks of Terry as mother, and so it was very very hurtful news coverage for Desiree.

take her children across the border to Canada. And then when she finally said, okay, well they can stay with you a couple of months, and Tane got it writing not that they would you know, it also said they would be returned to her. And then when she came back after her medical treatment, they wouldn't. They wouldn't give

her the boys. And she fought for two years long and hard, and finally a judge rule they should be they should continue to live where they were living, that they were young enough that it would make a difference to keep living where they were living and she would have, you know, half custody. It was a pretty you know, it was a dirty deal.

up in these civil lawsuits other than criminal proceedings. Tell us a little bit more about the danger the hazard of raising certain things at these hearings.

been compelled to say, you know where Kiren is. And the what's very tricky here is that Desiree in her attorney would really need the police case file such as it was at that point. They would need that for their civil lawsuit. And Desiree says that the the it's the county Sheriff's office actually their detectives you know, grudgingly said okay, we'll share it with you when you need it.

But then the next year when the time came, uh, they wouldn't share it with him, and Desiree reluctantly you know, uh understood because the only person who knows what the police know is Terry Horman, and they don't wanna tip their hand and let her know what they know. The the sheriff at one point said at a news conference, uh, choking up. He said, we know things we wish we didn't know. Mm and that that, you know, implies some

some pretty nasty things. And also at about that time, Desiree was told that they'd found Kirne's DNA in the ded of his father's pickup truck, which uh was considered you know, unusual there's really no reason his DNA should be in.

murder charges when there's no body. Uh it it can be done, It can be done successfully. It could be prosecuted successfully. But uh, jury's you know, every every potential jur in America is watching TV crime shows and forensic shows, and there are police who think that that that actually hampers cases. Jurors think there should be DNA. Jurors think that this can be wrapped up really, you know, quickly,

and uh it's just not like that. You have to go on on you know, uh circumstantial evidence, and I I talk to experts who saying, who say, Well, you know those eyewitnesses who saw Terry uh leave the school with Kiren. That's that's pretty strong circumstantial evidences eyewitnesses. M But but to date there's there there been no arrests.

but she was gone. But they used every opportunity uh to you know, to implore her to speak. And I think I think to this day, including the tant anniversary a couple of weeks ago, that there is no time when Desiree talks about Kyen that she doesn't call on Terry. So, you know, the the good part of how that is it keeps it keeps her focus on Terry. It puts

it keeps the pressure on her. And I also write in the book about you know this amazing community that uh you know, adopted Kyen if you will, after he went missing. And who the the people who run the Facebook pages. You know, they have a half a million people that follow this on on Facebook. The people who live in California where Terry Horman lives now and kind of keep an eye on her. You know, we've been told where she works. Uh, she got married for the

fourth time, you know, about two years ago. You know, sometimes we know what job she has, uh, you know, all kinds of things, when she buys a house, when she changes cars. You know, people and then the beliefs I'm sure are watching her. So you know, some people couldn't stand that kind of constant examination. For some reason, Terry Horman's able to stand up to that and ignore it. Basically,

she you know, ignores it. She does not issue statements at all, not not since I don't think since maybe twenty sixteen, uh when she was on Doctor phil and uh for two hours and basically you know, stuck to her story.

and reached out to help others. She's spoken to uh amber conventions, uh Amber Alert conventions. Of course, an Amber alert wasn't pertinent to Karen because you have to have a car and a license plate and and all of that, and that wasn't the case here. But she speaks to Amberler conventions. She speaks to the training of police departments called kart training, and a training of police departments and sheriff's departments so that they will be prepared in a

missing child case. And there's still a lot of places around the country that wouldn't know what to do, but what Loma County had had this training, so they knew. You know, you keep the family in the house, you designate a police spokesperson. You know, you don't have the family making police right off the bat, and you you know,

you get their cell phones, you get their computers. You you know, just what has to be done very quickly, because remember they lost you know, six hours and some talking heads, because when the police weren't talking to the media, the media would go to talking heads, you know, like retired cops or other people who would somebody said, well,

they really lost twelve hours that day. Now I'm not yeah, I'm not sure how they lost twelve hours, but but you know, they are all kinds of uh people that say things, so cart training is very important and desiree when other uh you know, municipality UMI, municipalities in Oregon

uh are having police training. She'll go and talk and obviously she's speaking as a parent, you know, and she talks about what Monoma County did, write what they did right that she thinks really made a difference, even though they didn't find carent yet. But you know, and course she's the wife of a retired cop and she's she's pro police. But but she also then you know, organizes her own searches and she'll uh, you know, she's candid with the police, and she'll ask them, you know, she

asks them a lot of questions. She stays in touch. Uh but uh, she you know, is out there. And uh.

One thing she did is, uh there's a a group of volunteers who were parents who've been parent her are parents of missing children or at one time missing children, and she did some work with them and then it just you know, it was kind of too soon and too close, and she i think had a little trouble separating herself from you know, y, She's supposed to be anonymous with the parents that she's reaching out to, and that worked for a while and then I and then

it didn't work so well. But she speaks selling National Missing Children Day, uh Children's Day and Oregon's Missing Children's Day and and uh, you know, all of it is

about wanting to bring Kyron home. Yeah, so she did stop speaking to Kyen's father, Kine after several months when she realized that and came to feel when she found out more about h their troubled marriage and Terry drinking and passing out and Terry manipulating Kyn, she realized that she really came to believe that Kyen had been at risk and his father should have known that that boy was at risk, that the the stepmother posed a risk. And so they they don't work opposite each other. They

but they don't do events together anymore. And Kane does his things and uh does Ray does hers.

there's some new you know, some new routine there. And I believe the doors are locked during the day or all but the front door, which wasn't the case, and then uh, there's not you know, there have been some some talk about more security and the school district has said it just doesn't have the the money necessarily. But you know, a real uh, a newer, were old school, a big, you know, a big rural news school would

have more security than this rural rural school. And then some older schools in this in the city in Portland would don't necessarily have up to date security. So it's still something that's something that and that desiree feels strongly about that. If there had been you know, cameras in twenty ten or some kind of system. Maybe he wouldn't have walked out with his stepmother.

twelve hours comes in. But for the first certainly the first several days, they thought he'd been abducted or wandered away, and then very quickly settled on you know, it was probably a family member.

two and a half hours. They think maybe she was scouting locations the week before when she was driving her own sports car instead of there as a pick up, and maybe she did some scouting. Uh. Desiree also says that there's some things missing from Kane's house and that when Kyen is found, it'll l help tell them that she was responsible. But you know what, where where is he?

And we're talking about you know, a h We're not talking about you know, Utah I, Nevada, where Susan Coxpowell is missing somewhere where they're just you know, ten thousand abandoned minds. We're talking about you know, uh an area of northwest Portland.

and and who is responsible. And some think she's you know, somewhere in the Martian, that he's somewhere in a Martian Sauve Island something. They that she buried him, and I don't know. I I'll just as an aside, I don't think I've been dreaming about this for the three years I've been working on it, but I had a dream

two nights ago about maybe I'm buried in sand. For the first time, I dreamt, Well, maybe he's in sand and there's a tide or something so it'll never be found because of the sand coming in and out or.