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You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening, the author of the true crime classic Lobster Boy, now turns his investigative skills to the chilling true story of Kendel Francois, one of the most bizarre serial sex killers of modern times. In October nineteen ninety six, young, pretty, and petite women began vanishing off the streets of Poughkeepsie,
New York. Most were prostitutes and some were attics. By August nineteen ninety eight, the toll had reached eight, when a prostitute told police that she had barely escaped being strangled by Kendel Francois twenty seven, a six foot four to three hundred pound middle school hall monitor whose slovenly personal hygiene had earned them the nickname Stinky. Inside his house, houses the smell was much worse as investigators discovered a tangle of rotting flesh and bones eight female corpses, almost
all decomposed. The book that we were featuring this evening is Body Dump with my special guest journalist and author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Fred Rosen, Hello, Dan, how the heck are you tonight?
Very good? Thank you very much Fred for doing this SCE again. A'm gonna be a great show because this is another you've uncovered or another incredible tale. So let's talk about we had spoken last night, so we'll let we'll let the audience know that. Oh yeah, sure that everything was set.
Yeah, I just we just have to admit this. We we spoke last night and the entire conversation was about deflate Gate, and we're working on that, folks. We just want to let everybody know that we're going after Brady. Okay, just let's let you know this stuff. You know, this is a combined international operations you know, and uh, and we're going after him. So we just go we let you know this stuff.
I'm sorry, kind of serious stuff we're now working on you.
Yeah, go after No. I was just going to say, you know what it is. I learned years ago from some cops and then prosecutors dan that when you work murder cases, if you don't kid around, you're gonna go nuts.
You gotta kid around, you know, I mean, you know one of that's one of the hard parts when you're writing a book is you know the cops are not going to tell you the jokes they said, you know what I mean, But because they're just trying to keep alive, and because you know they're affected emotionally by the cases, the good ones, that's when they solve those cases. I don't know. I just put my true cents in on there and.
That no, I actually I spoke. There was a particular case again in my hometown, where there was a recorded version or a reported version of a police officer in this little out of context recording was that that he had no regard for the murder victim and they were for me. Yeah. But as you know, as I've learned over the years, and it keeps getting reinforced, there's always two or three different sides to the story. So a police officers that noted that it was posted said, yeah,
but here's the real story. And so the real detailed story was of a cop saying, yeah this, you know this, what do you call it? Gallows humor? And the reason why even even there was a gallows there was a rationale for why that even the joke was even said. And so an explanation must say, so two different stories.
No, man, that makes a great point, you know. I mean, here we are in a situation, you know, where it doesn't make any difference what the case is as soon as it breaks and it's about murder. You see it all over the place without having the sources checked out and so forth, and then what happens perception becomes reality, you know, and that makes Man, does that make it difficult?
You know, when you're investigating something, whether you're a cop or whether you're you know, a reporter, you know, or maybe one of the avengers, you know. No, no, hey, I got that in there. You go sorry with this book.
With this book, Fred, which was interesting is that in our conversation we just touched on something that normally we don't talk about so much, and we really get to the nuts and bolts of the story. And we certainly will to this one.
But I want to ask.
The first question is that you want let why don't you explain how involved you were in this story, what you had to do. You talk about having to move to this town, tell us why, and you talked about ask me about how I got some of these interviews or the people I had to speak to, and the idea that they were going to write a book about an African American serial killer. So tell us a little bit of loot about before we start.
Well, let me just say to people that it's wonderful that you're listening in because Dan and I are able to actually communicate before we go on air, and we're not setting up stick what you do, which I would do with other hosts. What we're doing is is we're actually talking about how we're going to spend your time
and the information we're going to give you. And so what happened with me was that when this case broke, that is when Kendall france While was captured and he gave a confession which he said he killed these women. And what happened was I happened to be living at the time about thirty miles away. This is a very very unusual circumstance. It'll never happen again in order do I want it to, because it's nice to keep this stuff, you know, at at you know, at the arm's length.
But what happened was I read this and it said, you know this dude who was captured, who was a serial killer, and blah blah blah. And I said, gee, man, you're right, true crime. You're supposed to investigate this. So I went from where I lived to Poughkeepsie, and I started looking into it, and I did a proposal on the book, and I sent it into the publisher. But what happened was, at the time it was so horrific Dan I'd never worked on the case, been involved more
than one or perhaps two victims. Yeah, two victims. So I said, oh man, this is not my cup of tea. And simultaneously, the other thing was that I had been told by by off I'm sorry editors at two different publishing houses, major publishing houses I'd worked for, to never touch a case involving an African American. And here I had a guy who was accused of being an African American, a serial killer who was African American. So I said, well, you know what, I don't really care what his races.
It's a good story, let's investigate. And I went ahead with it. And originally I wasn't going to write it. A home a student of mine was going to write it, but he couldn't do it. And at the last minute I stepped in and I wrote the book. And in order to write the book, I had a problem, and that was that it was hard to get people to
talk to me about it. So I got a job teaching at Marist College in Pikeepsie, New York per year during which time I taught at Marris and I went out on the street and I took to the people involved in the case.
Incredible.
I don't know, well, you know what it was. You know, this was It's fun, you know, it was. It was weird. I don't know what else to tell you. I mean, you know, it was it was close to me, you know what I mean. I mean, you know, I mean we're talking serial killer and here, you know, I'm this you know, true crime author, and this dude is almost in my backyard. And he was a particularly you know, his nickname was Stinky guys. I mean, you know, the original title of the book was Stinky And I guess
thank God, the the editor interested to body them. Yeah, I think you know, I mean it's I mean, just think about that, you know, you know, it's it's really strange and and and the older part actually has a lot to do with what happens later on.
Sure, well, let's start at the beginning, because we talk about Poughkeepsie, but we also have to talk about Highland and then it's connection to and then how small is Highland is? Really what does Spoughkeepsie represent, because that's the you know, the crux of our story here is the not the divide, what the contrast, I would say. So let's talk about Highland and it's small population, and then the bridge boy Poughkeepsie and the different the difference.
You know something, I have to tell you something, Dann. I knew that we were going. Obviously we can be doing this interview, and it happens. I still live in the area, and I have to go down from where I lived to New York City to take a TV show for Investigation Discovery, right, and I went through Highland,
you know, and I've been down that road. It's it's you know, for a long time, it's not in w and New York State and the thing is, Highland is a very small, very small town, you know, withs a main trag basically sure, uh do people still say that main track? And uh May Highway, May Highway. And there is a string of hotels there still there. I looked, I looked the other day, and these hotels are catered
to prostitutes. Still the same, you know. And across that, and then what happens is when you go a little bit further south, you get to the Poughkeepsie Bridge, which then goes across the Hudson River to the city of Poughkeepsie, which is on the east bank of the of the of the river in what's called the Hudson Valley. Now that city is not quite a city. That's where he gets confusing. There's the city of Poughkeepsie and the town of Poughkeepsie. Then these guys must be up all night
and this stuff. You know, how do you figure this stuff out? Okay? In other words, now you got yourself three different police forces in the same place. You got county, you got city, and you got town. And that helps when you're a bad guy like Kembell Francois who's moving from one to the other and when I say one to the other folks, I'm talking one city block. Okay,
So so you're seeing. What we're saying here is that you have a serial killer who was able to operate partly because of geography and because of you know whatever these arbitrary you know, boundaries that have been made for tax burs you know, so you know, this is this
is the place that he was working in. And I would I was teaching at the school, and I'd go out and I you know, after I teach, and in the afternoon, and I sort of you know, right around, and I would do you know, I started to do my interviews with Bill Seacrest, who is the lieutenant in charge of the investigation, who's really responsible for bringing the serial killer injustice. And what what happened is he and
I would go down to the Hudson River. I think any river it could be the same, Lawrence, I don't care what it is, and you know, could be the Mississippi, could be the Ohio. And we go down and we'd look, you know, he'd get a you know, the right down Delia. So we get some really good, you know, uh sandwiches. And I talked to him and he would tell me
about the Kendall, France wack case. And he told me all about how you know, he started getting into it and so forth, and this took about a year to get him to trust me.
Now you start off introducing, of course the victims as an then portraying what information you find out about these poor souls that end up first usually a drug addiction and then this low track prostitution. And you first talk in the first chapter, you talk about Wendy Myers and so she has to she gets a ride over this Hudson River. Here into Bokeepsie tell us a little bit about Wendy Myers and her a little bit about her background. She ends up where she.
Is, well, I mean, like a lot of the One of the commonalities that I found when I did my research into the backgrounds of the victims who were prostitutes with that they all have problems and eventually those problems led them to drugs in the street. And the part that I really found interesting was the fact that in most instances, please will look at prostitutes excuse me, as second class citizens. So they're not all that interested, you know what I mean. They don't have regular jobs, they
don't pay taxes. They're not looked at as being a regular person. And it takes a unique personality like a Bill Siegrist and a Jimmy Ailing or two of the cops in the story to look at these people as human beings, and then by doing that they're able to eclipse their similar background. Again, it's going to the drugs, you know, and reading to prostitution and take it to the next step, which is to find the dude who
did it. And that's what I found really nice, which was that you had people that would do this.
The we will for the sake of going through all the stories of all the victims and not to you know, just brush over their their lives and their deaths in this in this story, but this talk about Kendall Francois, who this guy you talked, You said, he's a stinky guy. He's a huge man. But you go back into the book and talk about his earlier life, even at the time he's living with his parents. So you would talk about his early life and tell us a little bit about Kendell Francois.
Well. One of the problems, the first thing is that one of the problems in particular cases that the perpetrator's family has not made any public states regarding him, and so therefore, you know, you go with whatever the record is. So what we know for sure is that he grew up in with his parents and his sister, and this is to keep seeing New York, and so we know that they were that what he did with the bodies was to dispose of them in the house. And I
get into that obviously in the book. And of course the real question then comes in. Okay, you're taking seven bodies because the eighth was never discovered, and you're putting him in a house in the middle of this town. Okay, okay, people next door and other you know, the other people smelled something, but yet the family never made any statement about you see what I'm saying about smelling anything. Now, I'm not implying anything whatsoever. I'm just stating what we
know as public records. So good excuse me. So what we have here is a situation where this guy is growing up. We don't have much and we don't have much in the way of background. We just don't, which is a shame, you know, but we just don't. What we do know is that he winds up going and becoming a middle school monitor. We're not talking about you know, you know, some guy from Deliverance. We're talking about guy's got a brain, but for some reason he has a problem with hygiene.
And there's no incidence that, like you're saying, this guy. Also he's an intelligent guy, so we're not with this this he's got disappearance. He's a huge man, like I say, six flow war three hundred pounds, but he's he's got an incredible hygiene problem. And this is a long standing hygiene problem and continues through his entire life to the
end of the story here. Yeah, yeah, you do talk about him being taunted for being fat in overweight, so he he certainly wasn't He didn't have an idyllic life growing up. But he's like you say, he doesn't mount to something and and there's no real incident in contact with police in terms of him being this sometimes creepy hall monitor type guy.
Yeah, Dan, that's a very very oh my god, I'm wow, that's an incredible point. Uh, Folks. Our host just pointed out that there's no there's no evidence whatsoever that the serial filler ever was a personal molested a human being. This is and you know, I hadn't even thought about that, But that's excellent, and that's true. There's nothing beer, however,
there isn't however, however, which is that? Oh boy? When I when I was researching this story the dude round up in Hawaii in the nineteen nineties in the Army, I you know, in my fantasy Dan comment, at any point I was ready to call Steve mcgarrett at Hawaii five. Oh, however, since that doesn't exist, you know, I just you know, midical for the Hawaiian Police Department. And the reason is, I think hawwoulu rather because there was a string of
unsolved serial killings of women there at the time. Candle Francois served in the Army.
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They never got the big car M and I got the information later after the book was published from somebody that seem to implicate him. Didn't that, you know, and you know how it goes, you know, you know, when they bust you for some serial killing over here, the cops over there charted. More often than not it's something else, but sometimes it's it's, you know.
Legit with this. What's interesting, too, is all the when we're going to be talking about the polygraph, oh incident, and what's interesting about that. You can almost go often about one hundred pages on you know, how many cases hinged on that, how many police officers take that as gospel and eliminate a witness And there's scores of books where that would be the case. Wow, my god, he passed a polygraph of flying colors. And well, so we'll
talk about that. Let's first talk about them, because again, when somebody is looking at crimes in Honolu later, if the mo O is not similar, then that's going to be something that's going to live that as a possibility. So let's talk about Stinky's mo O and what was he interested in life when he was a predator?
Yeah, and what we know is and the reason we know this is because he confessed and then the forensics factor und it was a situation where they really didn't once he confessed, oh boy, because of the differences between the town and the city. It was a different you know, one police force caught him for stuff he did in the other jurisdiction, they interrogated him, but they didn't interrogate him a long time, which is what they should have done. Okay,
you know he gets much information if you can't. But in any case, they got lucked out. Well they got very very lucky. Boy I didn't say that. Yeah, they got some advice from the I mean it's an unusual you know what, here I go. I'm gonna put my two cents in and then all the people that have bashed me in the past on your show for saying
something about the FBI can do it again. And what happened was the FBI gave them an infokeepsie some advice and the FBI said, hey, set up a roadblock, which they did and as a result, actually in this particular case, it worked. A prostituted and assaulted by candle France Wire escaped and was able to get out of his house and by coincidence, run into the world block and that's what started the whole investigation going, which essentially included archaeologists.
You talk about. We just talked about the question. So we'll do that and then we'll go backwards because he does confess. Otherwise no one would know a thing that Bill secret. Is this key character in here too, and we'll go backwards too. Is how close with Cantella and the dog search that they had, the rescue dog search, and then Bill's ideas in retrospect, what could have been done before if they knew, if only they knew. So let's talk about when Francois is captured, because we've talked
about that already. They do this, They do an interview, and it's again because of the jurisdictions, there's different police doing the interview rather than the people that were like Bill, that were pounding the pavements. So these people may be mistake but end up luckily later they do this interview and just ask them about this rape of this Diane franco And luckily they have a roadblock and then a gas station agent says, yeah, she's just running down the
street right now. She said she was raped by this guy, So tell us about that.
Well, the thing is, before we go to then, I just realized I hadn't answered to your last question, which was about m you know, in terms of and I'm losing return of foot here, No, just in terms of you know, how.
You know.
One of the things that's really interesting about this is how it was covered. Okay, how do eight women mind of tearing off the streets of a major American city and no priest is a word. I mean, that's a lot of people, you know. And one of the things that happens here is because Frans Fois is known as a known john, that they bring them in and they
do a Tony brand a truth light detector. I was gonna say truth detector, light detector, and what happens They say, Oh, do you have anything to do with any of these women? Just no, I don't any to do it. Ten. This is a primary example of fly light detectors in the US are not allowed those deep piece of evidence into a court of law because a serial killer aka a sociopathic then why and get away with it from one of these machines. It seems like it show what was your question?
But the thing is what it continues with that Bill Seacrest, regardless of that light detector test, doesn't believe he does. He doesn't let Kendall Francois off the hook in terms of in his mind a suspect.
You know, when I looked at this guy when we were having that lunch or lunches down at the hawkson River, and it was like one of those things where there was something inside. You know, there was there was something about this guy, and I tried to get that into the story. Then he was gonna let this guy, you know, get old. He didn't, you know, it wasn't a prove small thing, but he didn't like the idea he was he you know, Francois was basically thumbing his finger in
the eye of the cops. And so he just kept after him. Even though he passed the the wide detector test. Bill had enough, really, it wasn't, you know, he just he was humanity, He had enough humanity to say, you know what, Okay, he passed the wide detector test.
He's our guy.
I'm going after him. I'm gonna keep going. And it wasn't a situation where he you know, he didn't he didn't violate his constitutional raids or anything like that. You know, just kept looking at him. You know, is this the dude? You know, it's I don't know, you know, maybe I'm wrong, band, but I just don't see that very o that kind of dedication to duty, you know what I mean.
Well, there was he has a personal connection, as you talk about in the book. He warns, I mean, it's it's a sad story when he warns a girl that he knows that he knows it, but you know, again you talk about his empathy for these people, because it's demonstrated and saying, hey, listen, there's a guy out on the street here, you better watch yourself, Cantina, you know, what are you doing?
You know?
And she ends up being you know, victimized. And so he is that kind of person that that understands the plight that of these people, and he understands that despite the lie detector test, this is a hard boiled cop that says, I'm not I just have a gut instinct. So again, it's very much like we think something out of movies where a cop just says, not in my dot something in my gut. What did you just get that? In fiction? Really, because that's not what they're really trained for.
They dismissed the because they have to they have to go evidence based. They can't be going on got instincts so much. Yet this guy is still doing it. So when they do get Francois in a room, despite those other cops soft interview, it's still he still has this guy as a suspect. And luckily, I guess all that energy, all that focus Francois, What does you know? You have to tell the audience what Francois does after this little interview where he's basically he's waived his Miranda rights so
he will talk to these guys. They get him to write it out, then they get him to tape it, so they think the more he talks, the more details, he's gonna sink himself. And Bill Secrest really wants to get to that house, and that's what you talk about the book too. You know, he wants to bring those dogs over there, and he's just because he's just certain in his own heart that this guy is guilty.
You know, I'm listening to what you're saying, and I'm going, gee, that's exactly what I tried to write, and he, you know, did it. Thank you. But you know the thing is, I don't well, let me just back up here and just say a few things, which is working in giggy. I don't think there has ever been a really good true crime book, really terrific, and I'm not talking about anything I might do. Can that New York State and I'll tell you why, Well, no, that's not actually true.
Is a great book by Peter Moss okay. But the difficulty is that when you're working in New York States, the there is this.
Feeling that it's such a liberal place. That's not the case.
It's it's the direct opposite. In other words, if you want to get information, it's incredibly difficult because it's really a very conservative place. So you have to keep digging and digging and digging to get to really what's going on. And in the case of Bill Siegrist, who is the detective on the case, uh.
He he boiled boy, he would not give up even when the live detectors was beaten by in other words, that the candle frins while office saying I didn't have anything to do with any of these women disappearing, and Liftecker.
Said yet, So he just kept going. And when he finally rested after a prostitute breaks free from him and purely by coincidence, they have the.
World block up.
And then he gives statements the police secrets just wants to get into the house, which is what you're talking about where you live, and they send dudes in with five X suits. You know, it looks like something from a science fiction film to find the bodies, or least look for the bodies in this dam.
Yes, okay, that's it. Your signal is really not great, Fred, I'm sorry, no, I just I'm surprised. It's just a for whatever reason, it's not a great signal right now though.
I moved.
There we go, Yes, so, uh sorry about that. I just kind of lost the signal here and we'll get we'll get back on track here.
Ye, Dan, Yes, it's it's cooled editing buddy.
Yes, absolutely, yes, absolutely. So what you were last saying was the in the interview when he finally is finished with these police officers but then calls the two officers back into the room to tell them to confess. Tell about what he says and how he says it, and why do you think he even said it?
Oh boy? Why? Well, you know, why does the serial killer confess something. I think that there's a certain you know, there's certainly a certain amount of ego, isn't it. They had him and he knew he wasn't getting out. You know that you got to look at that about what he has done. And one of the things that we find is typical in the case of serial killers is they have very low self esteem. Though, so you know, one of the reasons they do what they do is
to attract the mention to themselves. This isn't something that's done so that they're going to, you know, go under a rock someplace. You do this in order to call attention to yourself. Yeah, there's a certain amount of you know, the man of Steel involved. They figure they're going to get away with it. I just realized something, Dan, I gave him plug to a really bad DC comics. Okay,
forget that. But they think that they're going to get away with it, you know, and they're not, but they have that ego that makes me think they are.
He does exhibit a strange personality in though that he again he's not okay, so he thinks he's cocky. So he says, I'm not going to have a lawyer here, so I'll answer some questions. He then and so then they don't really push them because they don't ask him about the other murders. He knows he's a suspect, but they don't really push him. He calls the cops back in and says, listen, get a hold of the prosecutor, and I want to see some photos from ninety three,
and they go ninety three. That's incredible because they thought maybe start killing in ninety six as far as far as the emails, so they're excited. Then he takes four photos out of the bunch and it's Wendy Meer's, Gina Baran, it is Cathrine Marsh, so it's all the victims, Assandra French. So it's all the victims that or at least four of the victims that they were missing women. But it's odd that he then he doesn't go on to say to brag like some of these people, or to really
revel in the gore in the detail. He is very unique in terms of serial killers, let's say, in terms of his behavior right then and there. Well, in terms of just that behavior, I think, I think the murders themselves are not so unique, and that's not so unique, but just this that that one point of him. But then not going on like some guys wanted to publish books and and revel in the details. So and again there was no rimpetus. He wasn't a good guy confessing
or anything. That's not his Christian upbringing came out or anything. So I just thought that was very odd and unique.
That's a really good perspective. I don't know any other things any other way to say that, you know, and that's a really good perspective of us. Yeah, he he is. You know, an anomaly can't go France wise, an anomaly is in any ways as far as you know, being a perdio kill. You know. One of the things I remember that was that really you know, got me, you know, going with how the FBI or you know, their their profile.
Oh god, it's a white dude. You know, everything is a white dude, you know, and I couldn't get over it. You know, it's like, excuse me, why couldn't an African American be a serial killer? Well, they're telling secrets to go after a white dude. Sorry, guys, that's not what's going on. You know.
Well, their profile, as you talk about in the book, is really profiling has ended up. And you explained in the book about unorganized and organized, and that's been reeded and we won't get into that because that's a whole other book of people's egos and people trying to make
money where they never made any money before. I think it's but this profile especially, it's just so vague and so inclusive and includes so many people and really just what's secrets And these other officers looked at and said it was no value, no value whatsoever in the end. In the end, it was a lot of luck. I mean, if you're going to put the confession in and Diane Franco running away from the gas station again, she wasn't going to try to run into the police's arms. And
you know, they had a couple of close calls. But what was again, it's crucial that they find out. And I mean it's heartbreaking for the victims' families to find out what this you know, stinky did with their with their loved ones. You know, he paid for sex. At some point he figured it wasn't enough. He was a huge man even just to be laying on top of these petite women. And then the choking came and he was a strong enough man to break their uh, the hy eight bone. And so when he heard that he
was a very efficient killer. You talk about how he again with his parents living in the same building and neighbors had five bars, He's up in the attic and then said, well it's a little crowded, let's start putting them in the crawl space.
You know what when I listened to you say it. Okay, you're so you know what, I think you should be a You should work for the crown, buddy. You know what, because you sell you sound like a prosecutor or a defense or or solicit or one of the two. Yeah, I can say.
That, right, sure, sure, Well, I mean I'd love to prosecute some of these people.
Well, you know what, you hit something there when I was in the courtroom. Oh my, when Frans Woile was sentenced, because it was a deal. Uh and and what happened this was pretty damn interesting. New York at the time had reinstituted death penalty. It's only about fifteen years ago, right, And what happened was I'm sitting here and I still can't believe it. I mean, they wrote the the law in such a way that serial killing did not qualify
for death. I am not making this up, folks. Okay, this explains why the New York mets have gone since nineteen eighty six, and happened on a world series. Now, what I'm getting at is that what happens here is that the district attorney in Dutchess County, with its clim occurs, he's trying to like pull to get this guy death, and it's a waste of time because hey man, you got the law, you know, you don't like it changing. At the end of the day, they make a deal.
They dif francois life without the role. What that allows is a sentence in caring with witness impact statements from the families of the victims. I was in the courtroom and I have never heard such a sect and testimony in my life. I was in tears. Anybody, I think anybody would be in tears, you know, and what that got would That's what made me realize that for people who write through crime books and report on crime, we're not doing our job unless we make the individual as
we would poured on them, into human beings. That is, prostitutes are usually looked at by reporters in the same way that many cops do, which is a lower order of life. And I worked real hard to humanize the women who were the victims, and I was very happy that I felt that I succeeded. I even went to the cemetery of at least one of the victims, you know, where she was buried, and you know, you know, I don't know I don't know what to say, Dan, I just wanted to feel it. You know.
Well, the thing is that the indictment continues with journalism because again there have been case is where certainly the killer killed other people that would be I mean, the police state it, and they don't state anything they're not so certain of why would they? And so a good true crime book, an in depth true crime book like yourself,
where you've gone there. And that's why I'm totally supportive of and want to represent and want to present to the audience books that are full length, that are in depth.
If it's five hundred pages to cover a case, then it's five hundred page book, it's three hundred, but it's certainly not condensed versions or you know, there's a there's a place for those things, but there's I think there's a thirst for knowledge, and I know this audience has given me nothing but indications that the more information the better, The more we get to know why the case itself, I mean you have to, I mean, it's everybody's interested
in the killers. Obviously remember the killer's names, that's who we remember. But to understand the story, and that's what the fans want to know. The the entire story. It's all it is. It's just history, and it's just harsh history. It's harsh reality. And I'm sure it's certain that when parents read about their loved ones in a book, it's not the nicest thing. But they're probably not got any
energy to be reading your book. That's the person who probably won't read it, you know, But there are other people that want to know this information.
I can comment on that because over the years I've certainly had occasion to talk to on many occasions the victims' families, and one of the things that I found was common was they would, well, I don't have comments right work. A couple of times that said I was making money off the dead. And I remember saying to somebody on a book that I did, called need to work about people. Somebody had gotten killed up in mission and this person said that, He said, what you know,
you're making money of my my sister getting killed. And I said, gee, I said, how come you gave an interview to the Detroit Free Press and you didn't think twice about that? What the heck is the difference? And you know, and that's the point, you know, one of the things that I've always felt about true crime is because we're writing books, it goes I've always said, it goes into our you know, Library of Congress. What's the
what's the equivalent in Canada and Library of Congress? What are you with the official library?
Yeah, I can't tell you. I can't. I can't. Off the top of my head, I probably can't tell you.
Well, what I'm getting at is simply that when you doing this stuff, okay, I mean, you know, it goes across I obviously goes across international lines, and there's a lot of responsibility to get your facts straight because it's going to go into you know, it's it's it's certainly on the internet all over the place, and so whether whether whether it's here or there or whatever, it becomes the version that it's kept around, you know what I mean.
And and you know in the Library of Congress simply means they're gonna they're gonna shelf a book on it. Now in Kendall, France was kids. I have to say that the last thing I ever expected, absolutely last thing, was the dude is going to die? I mean not, you know, in terms of life. I mean, last time I looked everybody dies. I'm not sure that doctor strange,
but that's another story. But I did not think this guy was going to die so and he died, oh my god, less than a year ago, in his early forties. And I did not find any Oh boy, I didn't. You know, it didn't make much sense. You know, I didn't read the autopsy report. I don't even know if they did one, but you know, it was apparent they said natural causes early forties. I don't know what else to say. Yeah, well, the thing I mean, look, we're not okay, I'm.
Sorry, No, Well, I mean it's it's some people would like to see him live out his whole life in this eight by ten. Some people would have liked to see something else. Oh but again we're talking about an investigation. And finally, luckily, I mean, yeah, I only know so many more victims if this victim didn't get away. I mean, this this guy had certainly to you know, the capacity and the need and the want to be able to
do this. Maybe not with every single prostitute, but you know, his his killing seemed to be accelerating.
And uh, oh, you just made a good point. And I didn't make the point. You just said that these killings were accelerating, and.
Well you could see that from your book, you could you could derive that. Obviously, every one of these victims, it seemed already knew him, so it had numerous encounters with him, and then they get to the encounter where you know, it's not working out.
So I'll remember, if you know, I got to tell you something again, it isn't Jerry Ors. You know that you wind up living quote enough, we're one day you say, oh, you know, I you know, and okase I you know, I owned I owned a house and I actually had a wawn and I said, oh, you know what instead of mowing one, I'm going to go down to Pipsie and check out candle friends. So I get in the car, you know, and I go down there. And now you
know he's already in jail and everything. But I just said, you know, I just wanted to go over to the house. Oh man, you know, I guess what you're thinking, You know, this part of you that's thinking, oh my god, there should be some uh, you know, a big hand and you know, finger in the sky pointing here or something, even though you know better than that, and you know what, well, it was was just a house in a very nice neighborhood in that area. It was a it was a
detached house, a single family. Oh man. It was two stories plus the attic and a corol based underneath, which of course Kendall employed. And it had been boarded up because of what had happened. And you know what happened. Somebody came in and they bought the house at a song who re did the whole place, you know, in the inside, and sold her to profit, you know, talk about you know, uh, you know the system working. I thought that was hilarious. You know, I just couldn't get
over that. You know, one of the things I learned at some point in one of writing books is that you know that prime is that you know, blood gets on the walls, you don't get it off with anything. It's see said, you know you know what I mean, right, And I mean that's like spooky to me. And but you know, didn't make any difference here. You know, they
were able to sell the house. And by that time, of course, well the forensics were done and he was in prison and you know he wasn't getting out or anything like that.
You know, that was going going to have but we're talking about some very decomposed bodies in the house, and that's what you say, the archaeologists have to come in and eight eight similar looking, well similar small women down on their block. One was bound to be was just set to be a grandmother. Really sad story when you talk about her name was Kramer, her last name was Kramer.
But her mother was going to be a grandmother and she was killed and then a couple days later her daughter had what would have been her grandchild, her first grandchild. The other one where secret warns the young girl Knita, you know, there's a guy on the street, and then she's missing. They you know, you talk about because there was people that survived and based on the confession, so your book takes us right into how what did he do well? He got in, stink, he got in. Everybody
knew he had a hygiene problem. They didn't want to do tricks at a person's house. They want to make their money. And then when you talk money, I'm glad you put the sum in there just to let people know that this sex trade work is twenty dollars. Twenty dollars.
Well, yeah, you're not talking, you know, you know you can adjust it for inflation. It doesn't make any difference. You're not going to come up with a lot of money. I mean, these people are just surviving. And you know the again talking about it, and I think about it. I guess what always bothered me was, you know, I went to Yeah, I went to one of the victims lived in a town in the let's see, the eastern
part of the county. So like, I don't know how to drive, I don't know eighty miles whatever, you know, I drove out there and you know, you know, you know you can you can figure it out. Guys. You know, eighty miles whichever way you want from your house is still you know, a drive. Yeah, I'll never forget that. And I looked up and I don't remember which one it was, but the thing is to me, when was the same as another? I found the victims picture in the local high school yearbook and I made a copy
so that I could have it. And I thought to myself, how the hack somebody gets from over here to eighty miles over there and on the street showing their body, you know, And there's a lot of reasons, you know that was you know, that's another book I think you know, but you know this, But what was very clear was
that Francois was a smart predator vantage of people. And when and when I say took advantage, I don't mean just the six for money that goes on every day, and we're not talking about it, right at least in
this kind of tree. I'm talking about murder. It's because of the fact that the of how these women are looked at, that they were able to disappear on a regular basis for two years before the police tip to what was happening, let alone the local press, which I don't have any excuse for quite frankly, because they were disappearing on a regular basis, they knew what was going down,
you know. And you know, this is the kind of situation, Dan, where if you're you're a local press and you know that this is happening, you report on it and eventually it leads to the guy's capture, which is what happened. You would to pull a surprise. That's not what happened here because they didn't report on her to last In fact, yeah, yeah, am I going to get struggle again?
In no, no.
No, that's it.
It's the same story with the media where I am in Canada. It's not a it's not any different, I mean, but you know, it's a reflection of society too. It's a reflection of society. I mean, certainly, the victims are vocal, the families are vocal. But at the same time, when you know, the sad reality is because a lot of people say, yeah, but you jumped your loved one jumped in a car with a stranger, and and.
Some of the police say the same thing, like, my god, what.
Am I supposed to do? How can I protect you if you won't protect yourself, and so you can you know, I never thought of.
It that way. I never thought of it that way. Oh my god. So that's what they're thinking.
Huh, Well, that's what it is. I mean. But when they when you see a cop taking his job home, and these homicide guys do in terms of there's a killer loose and that's their job. They're on a task force to do this. I mean, it's professional, it's personal, if there really is anything, that's both. And yet at the same time, people are still conducting themselves the same way in the same area, knowing that the predator's there because of their as you explained in the book, their
addiction overwhelms them. They have to do, they have to do what they have, what they're going to do. There's disgusting, dangerous, you know. They know it's dangerous to go to a person a John's home rather than a car. They don't have any backup system. They don't have a person protecting them. The police. Then when they try to find clues when the person's missing and the family comes in and says, my prostitute daughter is missing again, they don't make judgment.
But then then you know, the families, rightfully or wrongfully, say hey, you guys aren't doing enough. It was a middle class woman, you know. So that's what you talk about in your book. You say, listen, the cop is in between a rock and a hard place.
Yeah, and then their.
Only victory, their only victory is to see this guy put into prison.
Yeah.
But it's you know, it's a thankless job. But thanks to books like this, audience like this that appreciates those stories. There's you know, you don't have any law enforcement to understand these human stories. That's what I think love people love about you have to analyze it. It's it's this all encompassing human story. It's a sad, tragic story, but there are still people, even though it's a futile that are still trying to do the right thing. And part
of it is writing about the right thing. The people that were heroes in this, if there is such a thing, Bill Secrest, another person named Menamee, Bob McCready, who else? Yes, you know these.
I'm sorry, I'm interrupting you when you're saying nice things.
Excuse me, No, no, no, no, I'm saying that, you know I I I just read this book fresh, so it is so fresh in my mind, and it's affecting me as these books do. These books affect the person read obviously, and they move on to the next one and get affected again.
You know, Dan, I just remember, I just realized who you remind me of?
You?
Ready?
Yeah?
Sure, Dick Cabot. Pardon me, do you know Dick Kavitt? Oh?
Yes, of course, talk show.
You remind me of Dick Cabot. He was the most intelligent talk show host ever on television.
Well, there you go. Wow, that's thanks for the compliments. I don't know about.
Anytime, but I'm thinking, because you're really getting into some very interesting stuff. You know when you talk about you know, motivation, you talk about who somebody is as a person. That's the challenge when you're writing true crime. And you know, the funny thing is who am I talking to recently about this? I was talking to somebody about in Cold Blood? And they would talk they were saying some stuff that that was negative about the way Capodi did it, and
what the what? What the What it really comes down to is when you're writing true crime, there's a point where Okay, you got this fact, that fact or whatever, but you're using the techniques of narrative fiction to tell your story, and so there's a there is a tendency to go a little bit too strong, that is, to fictionalize something without really having a backup to it. You see what I'm saying, and it can just a little
bit here and a little bit there. And so it really is an area where the more you can keep your perspective, like a police a good cop would a good police officer, a good attorney on either side, prosecutor or defend that you're going to get a better story. You're going to get a more accurate story. And it won't you know, it may not, it's not going to be as emotional, but you'll get it down a little bit better, you.
Know what I mean.
Sure, Yeah, And it's tough, a real tough one, because I get affected by this as much as anybody else, you know, Like that got me, you know, and going to the grave of somebody who's been killed by a serial killer, looking at the person's gravestone, thinking about the person.
I never met the person, but I you know, you know, doesn't make any difference, and I you know, you start realizing, you know, the tragedy of this, and then multiply it by eight plus however many more this guy killed, which we certainly suspect he did.
Was he eager to talk to the media after he was sentenced. Was there any any any possibility of having a serious interview with him.
No.
What happened was though, what happened was he kept his mouth shut, you know, mostly into is you know, your attorney's going to tell you to keep your mouth shut, because he got life. And at some point somebody from the city of Poughkeepsie, a woman, started corresponding with him, and this person wound up doing a correspondence over a couple of years. I don't know how many maybe was ten whatever, and uh, you know, he didn't reveal anything.
You know, there was nothing significant about any of this, and that was it. And then, you know, I think I can't exist. I remember that. I don't remember the exact you know, he died. He died a year less than a year ago. I think he was forty four. And it was from quote unquote natural causes. You got to wonder.
What was he like at trial?
Fred Oh boy, I just remembered what he was like at trial. Damn, Oh my god. I'll tell you exactly what he was like. I was standing behind him. I'm sorry, I was sitting behind him, you know, you know, I was in the you know front. I was in the prosecution side, was on the right side of court. The defendants was on the left side of the court. No, I'm sorry, I got it wrong. The defendant was on
the right, the prosecution was on the left. I was sitting very close to Transflis is a film called Tom Hanks. I'm not sure what's the film. In the prison saw Green Mile, the thank you, the the guy that played the party he passed away to, uh, the the killer that's he was African American. In any case, that's exactly. In other words, Francois was huge. I've never seen a bigger human being in person except for Wilt Chamberlain, who was the center for the for the U for Philadelphia
and this guy. But Will was then. This guy was freating huge. I mean, you know, he was sixteen four in each direction. Yeah, and the and the and the forget the thing about uh, the odor well was coming off. This guy was danger of fear. I'm not I'm not reading into it. I'm just telling you that God's honest truth. Okay, this was not somebody you wanted to meet the dark alley.
This guy was giving off the most I've been I guess I've been in a couple of courtrooms with killers, and you know, with serial killers too, and this guy, forget about it. This guy was you know this guy, Oh my god, it was bad. It was really bad. When I heard the oldest stories that the the survivor's relatives said, you know, it's victim inconnect them. I don't ever want to go through that again, Dan, you know what I mean. It was just it's just too hard.
I understand. I begin to understand why it is that season detectives get to the point where they can't do this anymore. You know, you get to a point where you know you can't push it behind you and the professional you hear too much of this stuff.
What was the media response? I mean, you talk about in the book where there was a smaller paper put out an article early on about missing women and nothing, nothing, No other media picked it up. They they couldn't care less and the public was not outraged, and they didn't. It didn't resonate with that either. Then later there was some an article about the missing children, missing women, and
the serial killer on the loose. After this was all said and done, the confessional, the sort of details, how did the local state media treat it and how far did it go? And how big a story did it become? I know the answer was.
Wow.
Well, the answer is it didn't become a big story. It's by any means. Yeah, it's now that you know, now that we're talking about it. You know, I was there, I mean I was there. I mean I experienced the local media, et cetera. And the answer is, yeah, it got picked up by the national media for five minutes, but the local media no, by no means that they except for this one small local paper which I talked about in the book going to a bit, which was good.
You know, there was another newspaper there, and I'm not going to mention it. You know that I was sitting on top of quite a case and they knew about it and they didn't do anything about it. And I you know, look, I don't know where to go with that except to say that, you know, you know, even the dailies, the low et cetera. And you're talking about an area of maybe you know, let's say you went in a how about a thirty five mile radius, right, you know, let's say thirty five miles, you might have
at the core of a million people. You know, I'm not sure exactly, but nobody really reported on it, you know, on a consistent basis, even when they knew what the heck was going down until until you know, in other words, people knew what was going down that day, that there was a serial castle, there was a test was fine, a serial killer. But despite that, there was really no coverage. I mean, you know, you think about that, that's like ridiculous, you know, well, I mean, you.
Know, you know, it's it's testament too. But because you know, serial killers till just recently when spree killers have sort of replaced them as in vogue. And and you know this the emphasis in the media because they are huge stories, not to say that they're not, but the serial killer has lost his luster a little bit in real life. Maybe not actual you know, but that's good. But the thing is is that you get a guy like this,
this Francois, and he's not even on the serial killer radar. Really, you know, he's I mean, he didn't have enough, I mean eight bodies. He's very serious. I mean, other stories have been called house of Horrors with a similar body count, will say, and the similar circumstances of bodies in garbage bags in a house. So you know, I I always am astounded by how the local media is shies away from these local stories. Again, unless it's a you know,
a schoolgirl that comes from a really good family. I think they're dead wrong in thinking that the audience, the meaning the reader won't be interested in that. I think they've been wrong for years and years, and I think they're more and more wrong. They sound very in terms of critical of certain members of society, where I think society has grown up and doesn't care if you're gay or transgender. I mean, you can imagine five or ten
years ago, I transgendered person was murdered. I mean the emphasis or lack of emphasis, or what they might say in a newspaper. You know. I think the society is they're out of touch, and I think they're acting, like again, like elites. I mean, when you have prosecutors and you have police, and you have rescue teams, and you have citizens that are interested in the stories and victims and victims families, I think we're more empathetic than the media takes.
I mean, I just think they're wrong. And I think that's why they're failing anyway, is because they're right off the mark.
I couldn't Wow, I could never be that eloquent. And I agree totally with what you're saying. That's the eloquence.
It's just I'm outraged because they don't. I just don't think they share the same the same feelings as society. And I said that, I think they're making they're doing a disservice, and journalism is supposed to provide a service. They're not supposed to pick and choose stories. Which country is, you know, more to bomb or or less important to Balm. I mean, this is not the case or some people
are less notable. I mean they might have their agendas, they might have their biases, but again that's why they're failing, because there's no connection with regular people and what they feel. I mean, you're still seeing hooker dad. Why is one segment of society that I don't think should be considered low life when you have all the low life in high positions. Why somehow they have to put the word hooker. Why they have to basically humiliate the family when they're
a victim. And I mean even our credible Canadian judicial system does lip service to victims and their feelings. At least in America, they're they're contacting and saying, geez, is this deal okay with you?
Yeah?
But you know what? That's you know what again? What? But to see? Now you get into situations where there's been an extensive amount of investigative journalism in the United States surprisingly about uh sexual abuse, specifically rape of women on American college campuses, and the statistics they're showing are astonishing. Yet it's no discussion except in a situation like this where somebody like you is interested, and that is one in four of co eds are going to be rate
twenty five percent. Okay, yeah, I pulled what do we call that? I pulled out an epidemic? What's the government doing about it? You know what I mean? I mean, it's it's it's a very very very interesting situation. And what we get into is that it comes down to dollars.
And cents people us a lot of times in these campus situations. It's athletes playing for big budgeted n Cuba teams that are raping women. Okay, it's a fact.
So what does that say, you know, I mean, you know what it does? Is it the values women and the value you know, and and I you know, we can go on and on, but you.
Know, I would The thing is, though I would say that I understand your point, but I think I want to say that I think the root of the issue still has to It can't be the government isn't doing anything because the government doesn't do anything anyway in this regard. A can't It's it's just an institution. It's an institution
can enact certain things. But if society becomes a rape culture, has a sort of a rape culture mentality, I mean, rape is what's disturbing to me is when I see a pedophile with again I call them a pedophile possession of child pornography. And then the person's well, not there, they're not a pedophile, they haven't committed an offense. And then the next thing I see many times is oh, now there, now someone's come forward and talks about you know, assault,
sexual assault and rape. So then those charges are there. There is an incredible connection again not a distinct correlation, but a disturbing connection between the capacity to rape and the capacity to kill. And once was a rapist is now a killer. And this story illustrates it as well, once was a sex and dehumanized people and then then became a killer. I mean, to me, it's incredible that sex and sex actual excitement somehow get all mixed up in murder, and that's where you get your sexual say
this your sexual serial killer. So when I see rape on the rise all over the entire world and this kind of bizarre war rape murder, that's the again, a more even more disturbing question. So rape is incredibly disturbing, and not because I can see that many times oftentimes, and it's a disturbing trend anyway, regardless, anywhere, under any circumstances. So yeah, but it's even more disturbing to being yeah.
Boy.
But my point, I think I think I lost on this one thing that I wanted to say though, was it starts off not in that athletes are more prone to rape or people with money are more prone to rape. What it is is that the people with money, the people with position, the people that maybe want to have a vested interest in having this guy have a scholarship and go on to to professional basketball or professional sports, they have the best lawyer. So again, some true crime
authors say, well, you know, you just don't understand. They're just doing their job. I keep going back to that point. If it's right there, it's the lawyer does not take the poor black kid with no money and go all the way to the Supreme Court on you know, for free. He doesn't do it. But what he will do for a heinous criminal with money, everything is everything. He'll put his arm around him, he'll be friends with him, and
then and he's still a respected lawyer. I'm not naive as to what a lawyer's duties are, but I don't some people make me sound like I'm naive as to their job. Their job is to be you know, it's it's starts with them and ends with them. It's three lawyers in the room. It's a prosecutor, it's a judge as a lawyer, and there's a lawyer. And that's the root of the problem. That's the root of the problem in justice in America, in Canada and everywhere. They take fish.
It's like a net. It's like a net in the ocean of dummies and losers and people uneducated, and they throw those in jail as like a business. They do it here too. It's not the mafia is not in prison. The most serious criminals are not in prison. So what are we doing with prison? Nothing. We're not doing anything if we're not.
I mean, that's a whole of the ball game. What are we doing with prison? You know, it's nothing. I will never ever forget watching Nightline with Cheded Copple. I don't remember what year was, but remember that show and Ted Copple went into a he was a hell of a good journalist. Sure he went he went into a prison. He went into a prison with his with his crew ABC TV in Texas and they went into this prison with his I don't I think the guy was convicted
of a sexual crime. Oh my god, this is incredible. And what they what Ted reported on, was that they kept the lights on outside the cell twenty four to seven, so that within three years the big guy went schizoprenic. And I yes, and I came away from this and maybe I'm off by a year, but you know, but basically, but that's what happened. And I remember thinking, this is proof that life imprisonment is worse than death. Look at what they're doing. Now. I'm not justifying it. I'm not
saying it's constitutional. I'm not saying this. I'm not saying that. I just found it interesting that what they were doing, they were operating within the law. You see what I'm saying. Sure, and they did, you know, and and and you know, and they weren't you know now in that particular case. Now again it's Texas, which you know, it's you know, uh, you know Kyle's reporting this had to be in the nineties because well, you know, I actually was in the
town of Stark was it start helped me out of here? Buddy. It's sam Houston State University that's gonna Stark Caps can help you're there. I was at sam Houston State University in Texas. I don't recall the name of the town, but it was where they execute everybody, right, there's been hundreds of executions. I got to tell you something, and I'm not I mean, I was totally sober. I wasn't stoned, I wasn't this. I wasn't that, you know. But I remember the vibe was really bad, you know. And I
wasn't there when they were executing somebody. You know, I've never I've never been in that situation. I thought about it, I thought about applying to see it and so forth, but I just unless i have to for some reason, I don't feel I'm going to do it, you know, no, no, But but it was very interesting to be in the place where again I was at a conference. It was an academic conference, and uh, you know, and and it
was you know, it was in between executions. It was a weird Dan, I'm just telling you, man, it was just a weird one. You know. I've never been in that situation, you know, I mean, you know, it's very odd, you know when you think about what I'm saying. I mean, you know, this is a place where the executor, hundreds of people. The vibes are not going to be good.
You know, no, I would think, no.
No, you know what, I think I better call on Captain America. I need some backup anyway, What Seeve Roger's doing these days? Do you know?
I don't know? Well, Fred, I want to thank you for coming on and talking about this. I know we tend to go off as we as we do, and I hope the audience doesn't chastise us for it, but some people actually enjoy us going off on a tangent a little bit and just talking a little bit freely. Maybe in getting it leaving we even got into a little bit touch of politics, and I know that's a taboo, but you know, sometimes we have strong feelings and instead
of just sticking to the scripts sometimes. But I wanted to thank you for coming on and talking about body Dump. For those that have listened, they'll wanted to go further investigate this incredible story. You take us right into this very very sad and tragic story, just you know, just a great story where the police finally do get a break, catch a couple breaks, and thank god, the killer himself decided weirdly enough to confess, otherwise we wouldn't know the incredible,
horrible story. But you've captured everything. You've got me going when I read this book is just again at the vent for half an hour about the system. It's just an outrageous, incredible story about a fascinating killer and the sad tale of all their victims. I want to thank you very much Fred coming on and talking about Body Dump. It's been a pleasure.
Dan, Thank you very much. Hope to be back, and you know, your humanity is what I really appreciate. Thank you very much.
Well, really, Fred, you've done it because you bring to life these cases and you're a champion of the truth, and that's really all anybody really needs, and that's what people are looking for in nonfiction. We're not looking for fictionalization, conversations that never occurred. We're looking for the stuff where you pounded the pavement, you talk to the girls on the street, the women who ended up being victims or
could have been victims. You got every bit skintilla of information and a fascinating tale that after you read this you just you're dying to look up another Fred Rosen true crime classic for sure, So thank you very much. Fred, you have a great evening and good night.
Good good night, Dan, take care of yourself.
Audios to you too, thank you, good night.