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You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them. Not since the Green River Killer had the Pacific Northwest been terrorized by so Savage. A serial killer by day, Robert Lee Yates Junior, forty eight was a respected father of five, a skilled helicopter pilot who served in Desert Storm and a National Guard, and a man no one suspected of
a deadly hidden life. By night, he prowled the streets where prostitutes gathered, gaining their trust before betraying them with a bullet to the head. On August twenty sixth, nineteen ninety seven, the half naked body of fifteen year old sixteen year old street prostitute Jennifer Joseph was found in an empty lot in Spokane, Washington. The same day, the decomposed body of prostitute Heather Hernandez twenty was discovered in a wheat field. Both women had been shot point blank
in the head. By the day after Christmas, four more women were added to the mounting death toll. All were found with plastic grocery bags tied over their heads, the gruesome signature of a killer who had sexually violated each one of them. After snuffing out their lives, Spokane's Elite Homicide Task Force intense investigation turned up only one common a white corvette driven by a frequent customer of Spokane prostitutes.
Investigators found a button from Jennifer Joseph's blouse and multiple bloodstains in a vehicle recently sold by Rage Yates Junior. On October eighteenth, two thousand, Yates pled guilty to thirteen murders and was sentenced to four hundred and eight years sentenced for two similar murders in Washington Pierce County. Yates
is now on death row awaiting execution. The book that we're profiling tonight is Body Count and it's the Body Count re release with my special guest, the incomparable Burl Bear. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for this interview. Burl Bear.
Well, it's a pleasure to always a pleasure to be with you, Dan and incomparable that's quite a phrase. Thank you.
Well, thank you for coming on the program, because it's always a lot of fun. And I didn't even know true crime was fun. I didn't realize that.
So yeah, well you have to almost approach some of them with a slight sense of gallows humor because it's so tragic and these stories are so painful that you know, it's not exactly compared anything to being an EMT or a homicide detective in any way, shape or form, but it's it can be very emotionally painful in draining to write about these kinds of things, as you well.
Know, absolutely absolutely, it does take a little bit out of you. So you do at least try to regain some of that humor that you definitely have put aside to to concentrate on something very very serious. And this is one of those cases where you know, very unusual, very unusual serial killer. We will.
I want to tell you something it's been a shocking new update to this story. It will probably be in the the EPO condition we've already gone to press, of course, on the paperback. It came out yesterday with the update. But there were three women that they originally thought were victims of Robert Lias's Spokane serial killer. As it turns out, the modus oparandi had a few things were different enough,
and was testing. It turns out that these three women, the first three Yolanda Sap, Kathy Brisboy, and I can't figure the third one right now. He forgives me. We're murdered by somebody else, someone they called the Riverside killer who was never caught. They sent off the DNA from underneath the fingernails of the victims and they didn't have a match. Well, science has advanced over the past few years. Testing is more refined, and just recently they sent off
these samples again for analysis and BINGO. This time they found a match someone who was already in custody on federal firearms violations, a woman who used to be a man.
Wow.
The alleged culprit had left Spokane, gone to Bangkok sexual reassignment surgery and returned as a woman, but of course the DNA stays the same, and allegedly, this this person Donn or Donna, whoever we want to call him or her, is more than a likely suspect, and they are in custody and will doubtedly be charged with those three homicides.
Well, fascinating, fascinating update, if to say the least. And the thing is with this book too, is this this is a re release by basically a popular popular demand from Pinnacle and Kensington. And it's interesting now that you talk about the ebook and then published on demand, it really you know, not that the book business is in great shape, but this is one bit of good news in terms of they used to discontinue books, didn't they
just people couldn't find them after a while. Wasn't it just the case?
Oh yeah, that's both a blessing and a curse. If a book is out of print for five years, the author gets the rights back and can resell it or print it themselves. However, if it's an e book, it'll never go out of print, which means be optable if it gets the right back, even if it's not promoted or isn't selling well. But that's just you know, there's always a trade off. There's pluses and everything and minuses
and everything. And the nice thing about the e books, I was talking to my editor, to Kensad, and I said, you know, on the e book, we can do an update on this new information very easily. It's a matter of a fire upload. And we do have some bonus photographs in the e book edition, new photographs that weren't
in that aren't in the paperback edition. So there's you know, there's always a little added inducements, both of course of a few thousand new words at the end with updates about what happened to everybody wherever they now, et cetera. But it's a and I think I may have mentioned we spoke before, but most people probably haven't heard that the very first people that Robert Lee h Junior killed, as far as we know, we're friends with my family and my hometown wall.
That was what's about That tells me that because one of the very interesting things when I spoke to you last time, and it was a long time ago, is that there was thirteen other authors. That's how important this serial killer wasn't, how interesting he was, and again how unusual this case was and how savage a killer. That was thirteen other authors vying for this book deal and you were selected and part of the reason.
And I wasn't vying for it. I was actually kind of avoiding it because it was too close to home. Like I say, the first victims were friends of my family and my little hometown of Walla Walla, Washington. One of the last victims was someone who I also knew personally on Off Girl, a friend of mine and Spokane dr arms Jet. In fact, I saw her not too long before she was murdered, and so I fell a little bit close to it. My daughter had gone to
school with the serial killer's kids. We lived in the same town, and I had, you know, like personal connection to it. From a journalistic standpoint, you try not to. But they said, well, listen, you're obviously the guy to do it because you know the environs, you know the people, you know the you know. The situation is that the towns, the culture even know the people. And so I said, okay, I'll do it. But I wound up being a character
in the book under an assumed name. When you come across the fellow Jeff Reynolds The distance reading True Crime author and wall of all of it is actually me. I changed my name so I wouldn't be in my own book.
Well, it's a lot of fun when you are though bro well once you are, but you're you're noted for that in your books anyway. From creating a little aliases right, A lot.
Of people, you know, a lot of people don't want their their real names used. And sometimes there's no reason to use their real name because they're only connected to the story tangently or by blood relation, and you donate the aggravation of the humiliation, so as a courtesy you give them an assumed name. Sometimes I've had people get mad at me for not using assumed names in some of the cases. But as I say, when you're writing a book about say, ched Lundy, you're not going to
change his name to Ralph Schwartz. You know, just the family and the embarrassment. You know, it's too late for that.
Yeah, you know. The thing I thought very interesting too is when we spoke last time too, is that you just touched on it. You had a friend named Arthur and you were really good friends with him, and at the time that's what you first met Darla, and then you found out a little bit by in conversation with Darla, which maybe you could tell us about that little conversation that you had with her, kind of warning her. Oh, it's interesting because that is really a very culling part of this story.
Really well, I got this book, can't Actually for the Bloomsday Miracon race, my son was running, and afterwards I stopped to see my friend Arthur, who is staying you had paranal problems with staying in a motel. And while we're sitting there talking, this extremely attractive young lady comes in wearing you know, those tank top and cut off jean shorts so you could see all the way to Argentina.
She sits down and she starts bragging that she ripped a guy off for five hundred dollars and the wait I could tell him, somebody says, well, she was a basically, you know, twenty to forty dollars street hooker. It turns out, but this fellow, a very nice guy, clean guy, traveling salesman, not dangerous operater, five hundred dollars for the weekend to stay with him in the finest hotel in town twice a month for the next year. Well, that considering that
would be a heck of a good job. Security wouldn't be, you know, as dangerous as being on the street, but being shortsighted to first five hundred dollars and ran away. And I said to her, Darla, that was not very bright, not only from an economic standpoint, but this is how women in your line of work get, you know, disfigured or killed. Because you may not remember him, but I guarantee you he will never ever forget you. And men
are very vulnerable in those situations. And you do that with the wrong guy, and you could wind up dead. And the next time I saw anything of her was the pictures of the body dump site where Robert Lee Yates had killed her and dumped her body. She was wearing the Mickey Mouse sweatshirt that my friend Arthur as she was his and he had lent it to her that day. It was a tragic, tragic story.
And what you had said too, is that your friend Arthur had actually witnessed Yes Yates picking her up for a date.
Yeah. I think she had been on a date with him once before. And what isn't particularly enthusiastic. Apparently he's gotten a little stranger, violent and scared her, but he apologized was offering her significantly more money. Mart He said, I don't think this is a good idea, because she said, oh, you little thing. She's very headstrong to what she's going to do. And he sat on the porch and watched her go off and get an engaged car and drive away, and that was the last time anyone saw her alive.
Now, this is a good time to sort of not get into great detail, but at least this is why I thought this guy's was so unusual. It's very unusual for there to be no sort of events whatsoever. But tell us about a little bit about the background of Robert Lee Yates Junior, because again, this is quite unusual.
Well, it's just unusual. He did have a rather nice upbringing, except for the fact that I think it was his grandmother killed his grandfather with an axe or vice versa. Wasn't there for that. He was leisedly molested as a youngster by one of the neighbors. But he had a good upbringing. He had wonderful parents, really wonderful father, rather religious, spiritual upbringing, very active in the church. He was greatly admired.
He was married once previously that didn't go well. His wife apparently did an appreciation having a drilled a hole in the wall to watch his neighbors have sex. So they wounded up getting a divorced. He married his second wife. They had I think five kids. He was a desert
storm veteran, a hard working guy. I mean he worked in this aluminum manufacturing plan in spoken to kind of worked at someone much younger, and you think, you know, you think younger, stronger, able to put up with more physical stress and aggravation because he wasn't, you know, a youngster. But he worked his rear off at that job, and
people really admire him. A good family man, like I say, a veteran, church going guy, the last human being, anyone with respect, even the potential victims of people he knew, and he needed virtually every working girl and Spokane there was one that actually was like in love with him, took him home to meet the folks. Uh, you know, I just thought he was no one. Could I think you imagine that it was him?
So so we really did have this alter ego where he was this upstanding conformist, non drug taking you know. So this this is a double life, most double life. Yeah, and you talked too, yeah. Yeah. Now you talk about this other the other end of town, you know the mean streets here in East Sprague, and describe this area because this is where his hunting grounds after your two
people that you did know were killed. And you say the reason why that Yeats was very intelligent, because what did he do after the two first victims.
A real big mistal. I mean, anytime killing people kept each he should have a wise move. But he made for a murder, a very large tactical mistake. He killed two people who were very well known and high profile and well liked in the community, and he shot them with a three fifty seven magnum Well, there was huge investigation, the rewards offered. It was a big thing on all the radio stations. In the newspaper in Walla. Walla was the number one topic, of course, because it was a
horrifying thing to have happened. He packed up and left town. But when he started in again on his killings, he made sure that he picked women of high risk for lifestyles, people that wouldn't be immediately missed. And it's very tragic that most mini serial killers do exactly that they picked on these women that maybe are transit, that maybe can disappear for a few months and knowing things to anything of it. And sadly, there are some people who think
these aren't real people. And as long as he's killing them, he's not killing people like us, which is very, very sad. That's why in the book, I've put a great deal of emphasis on the life stories of these women so that there weren't just like victim one, victim two, victim three. I want the reader to get a sense of who
these women were. That they were daughters, they were mothers, they were sisters, you know, they had and I did a lot of research which comes out in the book that just knows a lot of myths that people have about these people. Them all being drug addicts, are all having been abused or imborl or no one falls out of the sky and lands on the street like that.
Some of them had excellent jobs before, but things happened help wise, situation wise with them in the situation where they had to do what they had to do.
Yeah, and then then you say a young girl sixteen years old, Jennifer Joseph, has a little taste of some of some easy money and and actually tells her father that she enjoys the lifestyle and yeah, and she.
Yeah, right, she didn't take drugs. But she discovered that she really enjoyed performing sex, and she really enjoyed the money, and she liked the camaraderie of the other people she was working with, and she got to travel. It's kind of like, this is how I spent my summer vacation. And she promised she would be you know, back in
school by fall. And you know, at first the police suspected her boyfriend slash pimp and maybe being responsible for the murder, but he was seriously mostly just thought and very grieved about her murder. And they took him off with suspect this. Uh, you know, he made it than her business manager, but he was very within that framework, very kind and compassionate guy who actually cared about her a great deal. But yeah, she was of an anomaly.
You know, this is what she wanted to do for fun, and because of the fact that she was Asian, she was able to make more money. Say, they were more jealous of her because for some reason, the young Asian girls are very very popular.
Sure, now, tell us about the situation in Spokane. We talked a little bit about Eastbrague. So tell us a little bit more about where this is in terms of geographically in the city, and then also tell us about when do police first link that there must be a serial killer or link these murders and say they officially that there's a serial killer, And when does this task force get under way and who does it comprise.
Well, when Jennifer Joseph was found, there was another young lady found the exact same day or the exact same weekend, the sirn Anders I believe her name was. It started to become pretty obvious there was something going on, and they started finding the bodies would be displayed, dumped, you know where people can find them. Yeah, you know a lot of killers do that. They'd like to show off,
and there was no exception. Now, the problem that police departments face when you have a serial killer isn't just catching him. It's having the manpower, the resources, and the money. It is very expensive to hunt for a serial killer. And here you've got Spokane, Washington, which is not a huge city biding special the imagination without a huge pleasure for this sort of thing. They put together a task force comprised of the city, the county, and the Washington
State Patrol. And of course there politics, you know, there's anytime you've got different agencies working together, and who's picking up a part of the budget, who reports to whom, that sort of thing. But these guys were very dedicated and they did something that was so smart, right, And people could say, maybe there's a lot of things wrong,
but they decided was incredibly smart. They realized that the best way to have to catch these guys they would need the help and the cooperation of the prostitutes and drug dealers on the street. Well, as you can imagine, prostitutes, drug dealers about the last people who want to talk to a policeman, right, So they had to go out and make contact with these people and say, listen, we don't care what you're selling, we don't care what you're doing.
None of that matter is compared to murder, and we're not using this as an excuse to get information about the debustulator. What we're asking for is for you to help us catch this guy before more of you were murdered. And they were able to establish bonds of trust with this subculture. There was definitely a league one criminals, but the people knew they weren't going to get popped. They weren't going to get busted, they weren't going to get you know, taken for a ride. They were just going
to help catch this guy. And he was also you know.
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On the other side of the state, in Pierce County, they did not pursue this line of reasoning. They didn't occur to him. But in Spokane they did a marvelous shop. One of the great victories I must say for Spokane is that all of the shelters for homeless women women on the street required that they be drug and drink free, that they be cleaned and sober in order to see in these shelters. Well, these women as he's picking his victims, aren't pleaded in the United sober. In fact, most of
them ran in the same little quack crew. So the kind of the health and welfare people were saying, we need to get a shelter for these women to where they can stay and be safe. It doesn't require them to be green and sober, and they were able to get that funded, able to get it open oronically the day that he was captured, someone said, oh good, now we can close that shelter. But the Voluntives for America stepped in and have kept it open and kept serving
that population. But Spokane wisely termed the high women of a high risk lifestyle. They didn't want to use the terms, you know, prostitute or called grower poker or drug addict or whatever, because he felt that it was pejorative and didn't increase the sympathy and compassion. It was required for the community to pull together and try to catch this guy. So they simply refer to them as women of a high risk lifestyle.
Now, how many years are we talking roughly that to span this reign of care that Robert Lee J. Yates Junior inflicted on the Spokane in the Seattle area. How many years are we talking about.
We're talking about too many, way too many. I mean it went on now, as it is brought out in the book, there was tragically a simple mistake made. They knew they were They've been told to look for the guy in a white Corvette. When a cop stopped, he Ates gave him the ticket and accidentally wrote down with
the car was a core Bear instead of a Corvette. Now, because of that slight little error that went unnoticed, and I'm sure that police and just you know it kicks himself constantly thinking, well, see, we could have caught the guy years earlier, because that's actually how they got him was by that the thing with the corvette, but that delayed things supplied. I mean, surely how extreme it got. They found some tire tracks they were identical at the
murders in Spokane and the murders in Pierce County. So the aha, now we've got something right. They analyzed the tire tracks and discovered the reason they matched is because the law enforcement departments in both areas used the same brand of tires. It was the police vehicles tires that they were, you know, getting the tracks of it, not the perpetrator. It even got to the point where the Spokane Homicide Task Force chant them in a meeting and looked at each other and said, what if it's one
of us, It could be one of us. That is true because there have been situations like that in the past where they the killer turned out to be a law enforcement or the bomber turned out to be a film from the fire department.
You know, yeah that this sounds like something well, obviously these are the kinds of stories that I see on law in order, you know, about a year later twisted around. You know, so well, this one's on of criminal minds as well, so because we but anyway, you know the other thing that was interesting and that that was one of the more fascinating aspects of the cops looking at each other and talk about spooks. There was also some
some other aspects are very very h Hollywood esque. There's a talk radio show guy that's a real past the spreading misinformation, hassling the class for us. And then there's a you know, uh, a dubious author there writes a book, so tell us about well, you know, I wasn't helping you with this either.
Oh no, no, no. The radio host and the the other rocker the same person, and that's the Mark Furman, famous for the uh convicted fell on himself and the O. J. Simpson case for perjury, is not highly admired by the Spokane Homicide test Force at all. And he was doing a radio show and he was highly critical of the homicide task was continually and would harp on them, and the task force was very unhappy with him. They thought that he was causing more emotional pain to the victor's families,
stressing things that weren't important. And essentially, from what I can gather that the purpose of his book, Murder and Spokane originally was to mock the Spokane Homicide Taskers for not having solved the case yet, just as the book was going to press, who want to understand, they solve the case and rested Robert the Yates and he came to them saying, oh, gee, please, will you, you know, give me access to all your stuff and tell me
how you did it? And they basically told him an interesting trick he could do in a had and upper rope that defies all lots of nature. And that's when I showed up. So they weren't exactly favorably predisposed to True Crime Office when I walked in the door, but we had some very long chats and to ascertain what my approach was, what I wanted to do, and they wound up being incredibly cooperative and exemplary sharing everything with
me that could be shared. There were some things that were sealed by the court that there was no way to get, but as far as the investigation, every detail of the investigations made available to me, and of course I went out and I interviewed some of the many of the people myself, thanks to Arthur, was able to connect me up to a lot of the people that most some of them have got the hell out of town, you know, and you've got frug Friedman somewhere else to
just get off the street and get out of harm's way. That everyone was very helpful, very cooperative. Kel Walker who was uh on the task force there and I head the guy was just marvelous. He later ran for sheriff to get the positioned, but really everyone was just extremely cooperati. The only delay we had was on photographs because uh, the Yates cut a deal with the prosecutors that he would tell them where this one body was buried that they couldn't find because they would take the death penalty
off the table, which they agreed to. And so he did and turned out of the body was buried in his backyard, just to feel close to him. But the Peerters County prosecutor backed out of the deal and put him on trial for uh two murders in Pierce County and u uh and the uh they say the he got the death.
Penalty, what grounds did he renee go on? Though?
UH decided he didn't be this, didn't want to go along with the deal, changed his mind. So was was pretty furious about that, as you say, well imagined. So it was a very very difficult situation. Uh okay, well this quick sick. I don't want to ask me a question. I'm live on the radios.
Yeah. Now, let's let's tell our audience because you you described it very interestingly too. It's like Jennifer Jennifer Joseph came from back from the grave to get Robert Robert Lee Yates Jr. Really uh and tell us how there was a corvette and then there's the Bible.
You know. There was one of the fellows on the homicide cast force whose name is just my mind right now, I don't have the book in front of me, but he really had almost lost faith that they would ever really get a connection even if they found that corvette, of the guys that they're going to find a direct link up of evidence years later because he has sold the car to somebody else, right, so who knows what
condition is in. Well, when they finally get that lovely white corvette, underneath the seat still was the button that was missing from Jennifer Joseph blouse.
Yeah. Incredible.
Yeah, I mean that's almost like divine intervention where like someone was like Jennifer, makings like this is I need to make sure to get to get this guy, and they did. And when he got it, four had sentence to four hundred and some years in prison. You know, he read off his litany if I want to apologize to the family of sell and so, and of course it sends a very hollow same thing in Pierce County. It's a little late to apologize. And then of course he found Jesus in prison when no one knew that
Jesus has even been arrested. But I guess he had, you know, so you know, it's not unusual for people on death road to get a religion. The reason he hasn't been executed isn't just because they're like trying to find a you know, let's face in the electric chair or whatever. But the reason is that I believe it on the appeal because he was sentenced to four hundred
and some years in prison. He has to serve those four hundred years first, and then he can be executed on the other case because one case took priority because it was done first. So that's the only thing that's keeping him alive is he has to serve those four hundred years in prison before he can get the death penalty.
Now, what kind of representation. He was, you know, like this former desert storm guy and had a decent job. What kind of representation did he have at trial? And what was their sort of foot obviously didn't work. What was their attempt at what kind.
Of des did it happen? You've got to remember that he did not plead not guilty. He pled guilty. He confessed to all of them on the condition that if if he showed him where that Ye Murphy's body was buried, if they wouldn't execute him. And so anything that happened that those hearings where he kept that deal was sealed. I mean, there wasn't any arguments about anything except do we have this deal with the prosecutor where he gets life in prison? Uh, you know, for for cooperation. Yeah,
and so there there wasn't a defense. Okay, there what do you call it mitigation? In others? Any mitigating circumstances where we should show this guy mercy and compassion. Uh you know, I mean his father got up and talked about him and you know, and stuff like that. But I mean the crimes were so heinous and uh, it's kind of like if you took then I'm sure a lot of people listen to your show. I read your excellent book The Trophy Killed the show We dance murders
and know how shocking that one murder is. Well, all that stuff that's your guy did. This guy did about twenty times at least.
Yeah, and we're talking about the necrophilia. So that's again, it's it seems an odd characteristic that these serial killers share.
But yeah, it is a very peculiar one. The thing about being able to enjoy copulating with the people who were deceased, Yeah, I guess it says that probably has to do with control. You know, there's doesn't matter how much they objected this, and they can do about it because they're dead. I don't understand it myself. Rachel felt the probably explain a bitter than I could.
I think it's just the biggest taboo. I think that's what I mean. It's I think if if people were to look for I think there are some people that like doing that, whether it's Halloween or just walking down with as many piercings as they have. They want to get they want to get a reaction from you. Well, these people really want to get a reaction from somebody, you know.
Yeah, Well, the couse. It's simultaneously they don't want to be caught and simultaneously they're bragging about what they do. By the way they way they don't hide the bodies, they display them when you know, things like that almost to taunt the police. You know, there's also what's called, you know, criminal pride, where they start being so proud of getting away with this stuff that they you know,
get stranger and sloppier as as things go on. You know, they may be very meticulous on the first few and didn't get not quite as meticulous later on, although he Robert Legate certainly learned his lesson not to shoot someone with the three fifty seven in the close range when their heads is lap. And also he would ask soon as he'd shoot them, he put a paper towel over the wound and then a plastic bag, uh, you know if he didn't want them, you know, place getting messy.
You know, they really searched to find the brand of the paper towel and where he was buying it, and it's one of the few things that were never able to find out.
Yeah, that's interesting, but they were able to.
Get fingerprints off of plastic bags, off of like hefty bags and you are a plastic bag, which is unexpected and very unusual.
Yeah, that's that was a pretty innovative technique to be able to do that, because they weren't always able to do get prints usable prints off surfaces like that.
So yeah, these science is h is so incredible now and said even the last two years what transpired in terms of But the only problem with that is is BENI Jamaicad Texas tell me is that jurors expect things to be like CSI Miami. They you know, uh, when that's not very realistic. You don't always have this, you know, incredibly accurate and matching DNA pear strands. You know, blah blah blah. It's not it's not as easy. You don't assault the case in forty two minutes of commercials either.
Was there any offering of explanation whatsoever. I know that
we had this killer here, Colonel Russell. Where he was this guy piloting the prime Minister of the most powerful men in the country, and his status in the military was super high profile and super trusted Air Force pilot, and yet he committed these murders and his action and behavior was very much like VTK was there any discussion about how could someone of such good background, family, life, career, had everything going for him and have this other alter ego, or was there any explanation anyone.
To say it's usually not that deep. Brent Turvi always says, they tried it, they liked it, they did it again. I mean a lot of people have all sorts of fantasies, but they're fine as long as these state fantasies. Once someone who fantasizes about killing people actually crosses the line, the line's been crossed, you know. I mean, that's after that point, if you've already murdered people, there's really no valid reason to, you know, stop doing it. And it's
always pretty much a live scrift issue. They do the same play over and over again. They just cast different people in the role of the victim. That's usually the same play over and over and over again.
Was there was there anything that he did early on? I know that he changes his mo basically by dealing with different victims. He was quickly learned that. But I mean, in terms of you said, sometimes they get a little bit sloppier at the end. Was there something he did that he didn't do at the beginning or what was really his uh his downfall.
Well, they started zeroing in on people that were likely suspects that have been been well known, who have dated most of the work and girls in Spokane. Then they went to the mall and asked for DNA samples and everyone was very cooperative except refused, which of course he could uh legally, So then they said, well, beings, he's
making such a big issue of refusing. Uh. They waited until he was like, you know, uh, you know Denny's restaurant, having some you know, some to eat or drink, and then they go over and they take the glass off the table to get the fingerprints or you know, one thing or another. Uh, you can't have to be kind of tricky sometimes. And then he went to his wife and uh where she was totally shocked, I mean, even having some trouble. She thought maybe he had a gambling problem,
but it was a lot worse than she imagined. And she stayed very actually very she's so married to him. She stayed very close to the homicide task for some Christmas cars and everything. And of course he ates a dozen granted interviews. He did get a call from I think the woman from kr E MTV channel too, and Spokane wanted an in depth interview, and he said, have n't find people sick of me by now? Anyway? What else can I say that, you know, would make any difference?
And he said that he was in such terrible denial of the effect of his actions. It's like, you know, you do this scene of disassociating, you know, just go numb. And then he said, of course wouldn't hit him how horrible he was. You know. Then that's when he had no place to turn except to the Lord. I don't know how excited the Lord was she him, but yeah, it's a I mean, look at it feels about his kids. It's wonderful kids, darling daughters who love their daddy, you know,
the daughter's of course daddy. You know. Well, I can't understand how you could douce just horrible things. And I love you so much, you know that's so tragic. I mean, it's tragic from every angle, every angle.
Yeah, yes, well, you know the thing is you've your your books are always multi faceted. You always have time to delve into other areas that you are willing to discuss.
And and what I thought was very again Uh, I'm you know, very very Uh you should be comm complimented about it, or uh, is that you put a human face on these victims and you talk about these people because again, the the reaction of people is the reason why these people are victims in the first place, is because people don't regard them as some of the other victims. The innocently talking about the innocent people. And it's got to the point where Spokane is not the only place.
We talked many times before about Vancouver's situation where there was big denial that there was even a serial killer on the loose, and meanwhile you got Robert Picton or the Green River killer. A lot of these serial killers, a vast majority of these serial killers have figured this out, that these people are the people that they target. And yet you're incouver.
In Vancouver, you had a sembi a unique situation where there was but three reasons why they didn't investigate the case. Or one of them was they couldn't afford it. The other ones they didn't know how and it was just too much to worry about. Disn't really why, you know. And they knew, I mean, they knew that someone was bumping these people off the women were saying, our friends are being murdered and they're going, well, I don't know,
we don't to talk about it. In fact, that there was some you know, more than one person for a while bumping people off in the tops. She used to say, Oh, this is one of the so and sos of victims that they never really went after so and so. Very very upsetting situation, because I mentioned before, had an investigation of this kind is very expensive and time consuming. It
calls all lot of resources. In Spokane situations, I believe the federal government, maybe the Department of Justice or something, did give them like a grand or sings all over twelve million dollars, because that's how much money they'd you know, put into.
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I believe we're privited by loss he Terman convisioned eighteen less.
Now this investigation over all those years, Yeah, an easy thing. No.
And the thing is, by the time they have enough murders that a task force has to be set up, and then multiple police agencies are usually not just the you know, the city police, that the province comes into some capacity, like you talked about Washington State Police got involved.
I believe the task force. So what you do have is that that's where you start getting a lot of resources, travel getting everybody up to speed, and dedicating a bunch of officers full time around the clock to be able to do these things, especially when you get mounting bad publicity and they get.
To figure with all the costs of that homicide investigation task force and they're not getting results this year, the next year, and there's more bodies being found, and they go, well, what's the use of this this homicide team? They're not catching this guy and want more money and bigger budget and more staff. You know, what are you gonna do raise our taxes to catch a killer? And so it was very difficult. Plus so these guys, these homicide detections
are so dedicated. I mean they're taking this, you know, they're living this, you know, every day at work, and I'm sure they don't can't turn it off when they go home. And I and killers don't keep a nine to five schedule. You know, they're liable to be called out and find a body at you know, any any other there. And I've talked a lot of homicide detextas who finally they get to a point where they go, I just don't want to do this anymore.
Yeah, well, if it's just repeating itself, I mean, it would be enough to do something like this fifteen murders a span of decades and then you're gonna do it again. Who has the energy for that?
Is this?
It's uh? The only the only one I know is Robert Herebury in Tacoma, who could retire if you wanted to. But he doesn't want to. He enjoys the work. He's very good at it, doesn't seek a lot of glories. One of the top homicide of Texas in America. He was lead detective in the book I Didn't Hit, Shot and h He's still working. One of the three generations to have worked for Tacoma Police Department.
Well, now, did you you say that he didn't really grant any interviews except on the one news agency. What was his response to your request? And I'm sure you try.
Oh yeah, no, it wouldn't talk to anybody about anything. I mean, it was still there was still in the process of what the hell they were going to do about Pierce County pulling out of their agreement. It was still quite a chaotic mess. And uh, at the time that that I was doing this book and they did a whole the book would have come out the original edition.
Of course this is a new, updated edition, but the original edition would have come out sooner if I had the photographs because there was going to be a trial imp Purest County. The photographs were being shipped there for use, and so I kind of had to wait until they were willing to to share them with me. They wouldn't share actual body photos, but more like geographical you know, body dump sites, investigative stuff. So the pictures of the pictures are not gruesome. In body Counties they are, and
so of my other books. I mean, I don't pride myself on the gruesome photos, and I don't I don't select them. I just send, you know, the photos that are available to the publisher, and they have someone got standards and practices or whatever, select the photos they feel are most appropriate.
How how much would this case affect you overall? You've written other true crimes? How many true crime books have you written? And how particularly affected were you by writing this book with knowing a couple, two or three of the victims really and being so involved and connected with this.
Story that was a very very strange thing. The fact that it was close to home, the fact that I lived in the same town, I knew some of the victims, That the area where he was, this East Tray area, happened to be the area where my friend Arthur family lived. There were two homes there that belonged to them, and you know, I could see the exact areas they were talking about, the corners, and Arthur and his family would take me on and introduced me to the different people.
Fact is that there's portions of the book where I talk about Darla pulling some stuff in Arthur's father's house. You know, there were showed their restrength of character and ability to be even being a small critter, she could boss around and dominate just about anybody by the force of her personality. Of course, you can't boss around someone
who's going to put a gun to your head. But yeah, they that was that was difficult, not as emotionally training as a murder in the family, because that was little kids being killed in The little kids were the same age as my daughter. A one of them had a berth. It was only two days different from mine. So the bedrooms were exactly the same, the sheets, the toys, the pictures on the you know, all that stuff was exactly
the same. So that was very, very difficult. But this is difficult from the standpoint of knowing the families of the victims or even knowing the victims, you know, puts it on a whole, other, whole other level.
Is the serial killer the worst serial killer you've had to write about?
Uh? Yeah, yeah, uh definitely. I think well, actually, in terms of the killers I've written about, this uh, this fellow is certainly murdered more more people I've written about, you know, various kinds of psychopaths and disturbed people who murder for no reason whatsoever, or murder for fake reasons or delusional reasons. But this is the only one where I have followed the episodic and I guess it is a criticism of the book is that it is episodic.
Is that the word? But that's how the investigation went.
Uh.
You know, each each body was a human being, and each human being has their own story, their own life, and uh, you know, uh, and so each investigation is like an episode. It all you know, ties together.
Yes, yes, we talked about the particular situation with these sprague and these people, these vulnerable people, and we talked about this before. But just for the record, what is your position on I mean, there's no real way of fixing society, but what's your position on prostitution?
Decriminalize it, absolutely, decriminalize it, allow them to unionize, the safe working conditions other countries do. Most of the working women aren't. Aren't favorite decriminalization more than legalization for the reason they say, there's no difference between legalization and being illegal. It's still controlled by the same people. They're control it
either way. But if it's decriminalized where it's just you know, a business service business, then with where you can have health and safety standards and all that sort of thing and protect it's extremely difficult for a woman in that profession to go to the confince she gets beat up or raped or robbed. There's even that I think I recount the book case in Canada where these guys murdered the woman for fun and the judge said, well, because she was a prostitute, it's okay. Well, of course you
wound up losing his job. But I think they only did a couple of years each. Three years. Yeah, yeah, sounds that's pretty shocking.
You know.
The thing is too, is that there is a side of that. The police are frustrated, and there's a certain segment of them that are probably prejudiced against these kinds of people or think less of these people as well, just like the regular population. But they genuinely have sort of an animosity because these women, regardless of whether people are disappearing off the streets, still put themselves directly in
harm's way. So there's a frustration I think from police that you know, you're trying to save somebody that barely wants to save themselves because they're jumping into the costs of me.
Yeah, so it was biggest. They do keep a list of what they call like the the bad Trick List. So did the different women know that if you see you guys got this car, that car, he's not saved. He's dangerous. You know, they keep a list. The lady who worked for the city, who had had out the the condoms and provide counseling and all that sort of stuff, kept that list and they'd all share the information who
to watch out for. Bias was not on that list because he was very nice and very polite except the ones he killed. The ones he killed couldn't talk about it. There was one woman who did manage to survive. She didn't know she'd been shot. She thought he hit her in the head or something because he was mad at her. But actually she didn't know she'd been shot until several months She was in a car accident and when they took X rays they discovered she had bullets fragments in her skull.
No, what what did they find out from the information in terms of because there was no other survivors, there was really no witnesses of the kind of savagery that this guy was capable of, or at least what did she tell police from her experience with Yates?
Well, I think a nice fifth pattern. She cut a deal with him to perform oral sex for X amount of reasonable dollars. After seven minutes, she wasn't able to become roused, and all of a sudden she had this sharp pain in her head. She thought that he'd, out of anger and frustration, he hit her. Actually, what he'd
done is he shot her. But as she said, she may have zigged when he thought she was going to zag, and the bullet didn't go exactly where he wanted to go, and it kind of a ricocheted off part of her skull. She didn't lose consciousness and did even realize she'd been shot until they were actually shaking over her head several months later.
And it must have been about the time that he was using just because, like you said, a three fifty seven is going to leave a huge, huge man.
Yeah, he only used the three fifty seven on the first two people he killed, but we know of in Walla Walla, the sense of my family, he used the three fifty seven, but then he quickly learned to go to like a twenty two. You know, it's a low caliber weapon.
So there is Yeah, it's an interesting story with the survivor because you know, again amazing nobody even writes fiction like that she doesn't even know she.
Shot till Yeah, she saw this when he was arrested. They put his picturel over the TV where she recognized him immediately, you know.
Yeah, incredible. Yeah that she must have thanked her lucky stars that night for sure.
Oh yeah, she said she thinks it was a divine thing, a divine intervention and bolder quotas divine intervention. And the fact that she gave good head.
Yeah that was a quote. Okay, yeah, really dig deep information, bro, Yeah, that's incredible. Uh So, So the latest update on Yeates is you think that he's just likely not gonna he's just die in jail.
Yeah, I think they have to wait till he serves four hundred years.
Uh well yeah, where where is he right now? Where's he's he doing?
Is he's back in the same town where he once worked as a prison guard, the town where he killed the first two people. He's back in Walla Walla, Washington, in Washington State Penitentiary on death row as a model prisoner. Of course.
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because I thought that was another interesting aspect of this, is that he was a prison guard and then he ends up back in the same prison he worked in.
That is, yeah, not twitch, So did I in fact in the book because the picture they take the employee photos the same place they take the prisoner photos. Yeah, you know, and I have his employee photo and I have his booking. You know what he called, didn't take photo when they send him to the prison, you know, taking the same place, same camera, same room, just several years apart.
Yeah, and have you heard anything from inside the prison in terms of how yeats is, how he's doing.
What his interaction with others, you know, being a military guy, very disciplined like many of these kind of guys. He is absolutely a model prisoner, never a problem, kind, courteous, cooperative, no difficulties whatsoever.
And no threats from other prisoners. No.
If he'd been probably if he'd been murdering the little kids, he'd be dead by now. But no, though, Yeah, maybe they have to happen a little bit of a protected mode sometimes, But like I said, it's not like he was Jeffrey Dalmer. So then when you're killing kids, you can almost be assured you're going to get bumped off, unless you're in Alaska, at which time they just put them in general population. Yeah.
Really, so Yates is doing okay. His training has served him well.
Question, I say, according to Jim, he's very very religious, you know, and he knows that people probably can't forgive him for having murdered so many people. But you know what else can you do except service time, serve it well, and there's not too much to too many ways you can make amends to people after you've murdered their daughter or you know, sister or whatever.
Yeah, and we talked about too that there wasn't there wasn't anything to the trial. But the fact that that the death penalty was on the table really changes any kind of trial anyway, doesn't it. That's where you start getting leave bargains. You get these incredible deals that people willing to cant and it really.
Makes it interesting because the death penalty is supposedly reserved for the worst of the worst, and the Greener of a Chiller was probably the worst. It works with your forty seven or something like that victims. Yeah, it didn't get the death penalty. So when the Green River killer doesn't get the death penalty and Robert the Yates doesn't get the death penalty, and as opposedly reserved for the worst of the worst, then who can get it?
You know, Yeah, but there's so many wrongfully convicted, maybe single murders or double murders. So that again, again why I'm against the death penalty is because they make mistakes, and they.
Make a lot off a horrible mistake in Texas where the guy was executed for allegedly killing his children in the house fire, and it turns out all the experts examined and said and vasty was trying to save his kids in the house fire, but they already executed him.
God, yeah, God help you with as you're involved with that. That's all I can say, you know, and you know not in America. You know, many states are abolishing the death penalty or so it's less.
Of course, then I get tranced. So why you can compromise and have it on the books and not use it now It was so it's always there as as a way of saying that this is such a horrible, horrible crime, that this is what perhaps should happen to you. But because of compassion and mercy and I whant to
make a mistake, we're not going to. Uh. The reason I mentioned that is sometimes people look at things in some of the holy books of the world's religions, like still this person to death, that they're an adulterous, you know, and things like that, you goll how cruel, But usually they don't read the rest of the paragraph. For example, in some religions, I think in Islam, for example, an
adulter as people committing adultery or would be stoned to that. However, you must bring four witnesses to the actual physical act of adultery in order for that to take place, which is virtually impossible. So the message being this is how bad it is, so don't you do it? You know, it's like the only person you can heavily have any influence over it yourself, And if you're going to choose somebody else, you better be able to bring poor witnesses or saw them do it.
Yeah. Yeah, it cancels that out, doesn't it.
Yeah. So the thing is the way of communicating how with what this favor it is viewed, but making it virtually impossible for someone to go after hopefully go after somebody else other than themselves, you know.
Yeah. The only thing is is that a lot of states are experiencing fhiscal concerns to say the least, because to afford these prisoners all the necessary appeal processes is very very taxing, you know, money wise.
We certainly want to stop having the appeals because that's what the reason they have so many appeals is. Because it's a matter of life or death. Yeah, and therefore there you know, if there's been any errors of judgment or errors.
Of the law.
You know, I mean, it's a way say, there's no such thing as loopholes in the law. It's just the law. You would think, yeah, it's just the law. There aren't loopholes, it's just the law.
Only only creative defense lawyercy loopholes.
Well, now, actually think I think there's people who object to the outcome of something not being the way they wanted to say, Oh, he found some loophole in the law. Now he just found the law. You apply the law to the case, hopefully, and if the jury does what they're supposed to do, it applies the law the principle to the existing evidence or lack thereof, and they're going to their charge were coming up with, you know what,
had they been proven beyond a reasonable doubt? United Stays don't know what the wording is out there and if the answer is no, then you can't find them building if you have any reasonable doubt.
Well, with some reasonable doubt. Yeah, but we've been seeing the you know Casey Anthony case, I mean that was.
One they charged were all wrong to begin with. There was no evidence. That was insane for them to have made those charges against her when they actually had no case. They had no no evidence. There was nothing but reasonable doubt about everything. All you have to do is listen to Nancy Grace and everyone had coming up with their own theories while the thing was in progress, which I can't stand to do. But uh, you know, there was no there was no hard evidence they they overcharged or
overreached or whatever. And which happens quite often, people taking a case that they think they can win based on god knows what. But if it has to do with the jury having to apply the actual law to the actual evidence or lack of of, uh, you're going to get different outcomes than people's imaginations conceived.
Well, you do have a lot of cases that. The one thing I do notice between Canada and America, the difference is that we normally don't take well I don't see it. They don't take circumstantial cases to a jury. They don't take cases where there's no body, no weapon, no body, just the you know sort of a Casey Anthony case. I mean, there's a body, but there's a lot of you know, there's there wasn't much connection.
That's the thing. There was no connection, there was no no heart evidence. It was all just speculation. And you can't convict someone, hopefully on murder, out of public relations and speculation. There has to be actual evidence that convinces you beyond a reasonable doubt.
Well, I've seen a lot of I've seen a lot of judgments where it was circumstantial though, and they made and they made all the connections. That prosecutor made those connections, and the jury went along with it. That's very interesting to me as a Canadian because I'm just I just don't see those things. I do not see that kind of I don't see the charges initially in the first place like that. So if they are unlikely to get a conviction, then they are hesitant to lay charges here.
Yeah, Well, unfortunately, one of the things here is they say, can we get a conviction? Not is that person really guilty, but can't we get a conviction? And that can leave us some tragic outcomes.
Well, you know, I don't think that's fair. I just think you just have this hyper vigilance. The person that's going to be a prosecutor their whole life and not go and swing to defense is maybe a guy that's a little more takes the law a little more seriously.
That being said, they're only human beings. He's fighting against this person that will I think a lot of prosecutors believe that defense lawyers have the ability to twist that law or or they have an advantage so when the chips are down, when it looks bad, when when their job is on the line, or the reputation or pressure, I think they resort to who they think is guilty. But they do break the law.
We see that a lot with police departments will be a tunnel vision on who on who the suspect is, and they won't even they don't go after someone, or they limit their options because they decide or we think this person is a good candidate.
Well, I mean there are some there are some cases where a few officers vouch.
That no, this is the guy.
I know this is the guy, and so I think sometimes you do get characters that are convinced themselves. I mean, obviously some of these and the psychopathic killer is a great example of a guy that's very, very convincing of a lot of things. You know, Gaysey was let out. Gaysey had a ten year sentence. He was out in six months, and if circumstances were different, he who knows what the body count was. So some of these people are fantastic liars. That's obvious.
So you know, there's right, pardon me, you won't know if you add the Gacy's lawyer on, who of course went on to be a judge.
But you know, it's like Christus, even Shohn Wayne Gacy is subtly just blurts out, you know, I got all these bodies in my house. I'm going to have to add on another floor, run out of space to bury people. Yeah, what do you say when somebody tells you this, uh, the hell of a Christmas?
Yeah? Yeah, it was an interesting show. You you you had them on too, Sam Amaranti and Danny Roderick with their books. Wow, it's just you know, I could read you know, I mean, that wasn't the first book I read. Killer Clown by Terry Sullivan, and both books just essential if you really want to see the mind of the what an incredible tale. That's all I can say. It's
just amazing. So yeah, these guys. It really shows that as smart as police can be, as trained as they can be, these killers are still a mystery I think anyway. I don't think anybody's really cracked these guys at all. It can have interviewed the thirty six of the worst serial killers to come up with criminal profiling, and that's limited in its use really, But I.
Will tell you one thing. A lot of people think that these serial killers and psychopaths are complex. It's exactly the officer if they're missing the emotionship. They live in a two dimensional world where at the center of the universe, and it's I can say, they tried it, they liked it, they did it again. They have no empathy, no compassion. But the thing is just not all sociopaths and psycopaths become criminals and killers, just like the majority of pedophiles.
Never do anything to a kid's chasing the realm of fantasy. As long as it's in fantasy, fine, but when it crosses that line, you got a big problem.
Well, I mean, especially these days. With the advent of the internet, a lot of people that maybe would have had a hard time finding sort of violent S and M magazines, And then there was always places I think you could get it, or it could order it, or it was tolerable.
You know. The thing about S and M and B and D not to be due with bed and breakfast is the person who's in control at all times is the submissive person. They create the scenario, they write the symphony, and the dom male or female, simply follows their script, follows their instructions. The people. A lot of research has gone into this. The people who enjoy that sort of thing are usually people who are decision makers. There's a lot of pressure to make decisions, and they like to
create the illusion that they are not in control. Of course they are in control because they create the cinema where they're not in control. But it's the cycrification.
Yeah, but when I was what I'm talking about too, though, is the like minded individuals now have the ability to fantasize at a different level. And then there are because there's different levels of these people righting their objectivity and their delusions and fantasies. Delusions not necessarily hallucinations. But definitely
these people seem invincible once again. Once they've experienced that one fantasy of murder, then why not do it again, maybe even escalate it, maybe even improve the fantasy a little bit, improve the experience.
A mentally healthy person. Unless there's a crime of passion, they snap, doesn't go out cold blood the murdered people. And I think that the Internet offers for people who have a fantasy life out of murder, but say some of these other things. That's a perfectly safe way of fantasizing and interacting with like minded people who remind each other.
We simply keep it in the realm of all play and make believe where no one no one really you know, it's like you're playing Swordian's sources are playing what we used to play, cowboys, and we didn't really go out and kill Native Americans. Then they go out and kill people with horses.
Yeah, yeah, no, it's just it's just it's fascinating for me to see that these people uh cross into that taboo area where everyone else the cannibalism, the necrophilia, the murder, of the mutilation, the the reveling in it, the trophy taking, the it's that it's.
It's you know, it's remarkably rare, and yet we are fascinated with it, hy know, Doctor Scott Vaughan, he's currently working on a new book on why we are so fascinated and enthralled with these characters and that I position. But it's very similar to what happened with Frankenstein and Dracula and all that the cap you know, back when those movies are sweatly scared, people eventually want up being
avent because tell them, meet them. You know. It's it's having these shared nightmares that uh, you know, fear from a distance because the brain doesn't really differentiate between make the lead right in real fright. But there is that part of your brain that says, it's only a movie. It's only a movie. It's only a movie.
Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. So this is a re release of body Count. This is uh. This this is a popular book because this is not the first time it's been re released as well, it's.
Not well, there's been more than one printing because of the demand and a lot of UH schools or criminology schools, college level courses use the book. Have these students reader, this is like a evccuate a textbook because it covers a lot about investigation and a lot about psychopathy and that type of thing. Uh So it's it's worthwhile. I mean, I don't I write these books hoping to say lives.
You know, if if you can learn something from these books to where you can get yourself out of harm's way, that you can see what's going on, maybe we can find it a treatment of cure for this thing someday, or keep more people alive by getting them out of those situations. And it's it's not easy to write these books emotionally or financially or time wise, but we do it because we think we're doing something important.
Well, it's a fascinating slice of history as well, because these things don't happen and a vacuum. It happens over a period of years and all these lives these people touch, and it really is a very a barrant point in society when something like this happens. Everything else is somewhat understandable, but something like this is almost noncomprehendible.
And now one of the criticisms of my books that one of the thing that some people don't like is I do make a real effort to put it in a sociological and it's to our context because you say this doesn't happen a vacuum, And I did add there's a section added to this new addition of bod Account that was taken out of the first edition, but they have decided to put it back in.
And that is the.
Historical background of how the situation of these women put them on the fringe of society where it didn't used to be that way prior to the Harrison Active. I think in nineteen nineteen there was no link between drugs and crime in America and things were much different than But so if you can see the context of how we got in this situation, how do we have people that are such easy prey that can be murdered with people? Thank god, it's only pulling. Most people are not real
people like us. I try to give a sense of perspective. Some people don't understand that will love it.
I know you do.
And so yeah, for true crime readers, you're one of the biggest names in true crime and your style is different than other people. Some people it's not the criticize, but it's it's vary by the numbers in terms of this is what it is and there and the background is not cookie cutter, but it's very conforming to other books that you've read. And then there comes a trial and there you go and there.
Is a There is a format that true crime books usually follow, but one I have that is most iconic classics. Here's one called Band Overboard, the Counterfeit Resurrection Phil Champaigne, which is currently out of print. It should be back soon. And that's totally different. I violated every known rule of true crime writing in that. But you try to do different things with form and structures. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.
Uh.
With Fatal Beauty, I tried to do it almost as if it were a documentary, Uh, like a verbal video documentary.
Uh.
Some people like it. Some people thought it was a little soulless. But uh, I still want to get into the historical and social perspective of what this means. You know, well, what does this have to do with with us, with my family, my culture, my America, you know, because I do write American cases only. Uh. And what does it what can we learn from this? How did we get here? What does this mean? It was my mentor Jack Olson, the part of the greatest true crime writer whoever lived.
Told me that any book that doesn't explore why and how his pornography and you have to get into what does this mean? What can we learn?
Well? Jack Olson was a fan of yours as well, and I'm a huge fan of For me, he is the guy that the the guy that could write true crime like nobody's business.
And he's the best ever what you're bounderful, I can tell you. When I read his book Salt of the Earth, I read the first page and I told him, I said, I want to go take my word processor and throw it in the Pacific Ocean because I could never I could never write a page as good as that. And he laughed and he was very very supportive of me. And you know he would he would go on these big anti true crime diatribes about I would altern to crap.
And I called him and I said, Jack, I said, I just read this big thing you did about how true crime now is a bunch of garbage. I said, how about say, except maybe for burls and a couple of He says Burle. He says, whose name is on the cover of your book? Saying world bear rights true crime. At his best. There's more people will see that on the cover of your book. Then we'll see the article I wrote.
He was when you get an endorsement Jack Wilson. That is just very, very, very special. And I like the idea of any author really coming forward in the book at least to have some voice, because it's almost unnerving to me for an author not to especially at these profound moments in the book, to not at least somewhat have opinion about that. I mean, I know so well.
The technique I use, I think people have picked up on it is I'll have people giving running commentary. They'll be commentary by Chef Rogers, a well known newsman, or the lead commentary by Travis Webb, who is my investigative assistant on some of these books. Or they'll be commentary by Jeff Reynolds. They opinionated true crime author. Well, I doubt you've ever seen very many books by Jeff Reynolds.
That's because that's me. So the author caresipt at the end where it has you know, the author's end notes of the author's commentary at the very end of the book, where I express my opinion on everything. But in terms of the commentary. I like to find people who can like a round table of commentary of you know, different views. And in Fatal Beauty, for example, I actually asked a variety of other true crime writers their opinion on one aspect of the case, and they gave me permission to
quote them. So you have all these other true crime writers weighing in of their opinion, and they did not They didn't agree with each other, but that made it even more interesting to me.
Yeah, how many true crime books do you have now under your belt? Berlin?
What's yours? Let's see Man Overboard with the first murder in the family, Headshot, body Count, Broken Doll Mom said kill, and Fatal Beauty. However, many days in terms of true crime, and I've got a couple that I think will be coming out of shorter e books that didn't quite make it to full length because the case may have been a little bit older. For example, in the book Masters of True Crime, which is a joy to be and that was edited by R. Barry Flower, seventeen true crime
writers all contributing. I just love that book and so proud to be part of it. I was able to tell the story You'll have the mail bomb Conspiracy, which originally was going to be a book ten years ago that ran into a whole other set of problems. We'll talk about the show, but I was finally able to tell that story. And I've got a few other ones that I'd love to tell that would be shorter, It wouldn't be book length, but would be fascinating true crime stories that you haven't heard of before.
Yeah. Masters of True Crime is really a great thing, and the story that you have in there is fascinating. So I'm glad it did make it finally.
Oh and I got to tell you the United States Postal Inspectors were so incredible in their cooperation with me on that story. I cannot praise them enough. It was just beyond anything I could have hoped for.
Well, you know what I found interesting, too, is when we start doing this the eighth story, when you said that the police were kind of wary because they had Mark Furman there and so they wanted to know and I and I had said to you in their earlier interview, Well, all they have to do is look at your body of work. All they had to do was read one
of your books and they would see the perspective. Because really what they were looking for is is the tabloidsque kind of perspective misinformed, you know, but I'm.
So worried about they'd already seen that. Actually, they got hold of Van Rule and asked her about me and Anne and I we just writers workshop together would be island, and we've always got along great. And in fact, she is my family is in one of books, and she is actually and shows up as a character in my book Ban Overword because the main character's daughter and her daughter were best friends.
Interesting, and her daughter is a writer too, She's a fictional writer.
Yeah. In the family quest if you know, every one of my family is a writer. To Lee Oldberg Goldberg, my sister makes you rest in peace. It's just just one of those family things, you know, like the Barrymoores.
Yeah. Interesting, yeah, yeah. And for those people that don't know. And we got to put a plug in there for this as well, the True Crimes Uncensored on Outlaw Radio every Saturday afternoon. Put plug in for that and also the adaptation. The live adaptation and film are part of me television adaptation of True Crimes on American Horrors with Heart Fisher's television station so tell Us about both of those things that you have going on on a regular basis.
Well, the True Crime on Sensored airs a Saturday afternoons twud at three o'clock on Outlaw Radio dot TV or Outlaw Radio USA dot com, either one, and you can always just look it up True Crime on Sensored. We have a website, true Crime on sensor dot Com tells you who the guests are, and there's a player on the right hand side that plays past shows if you like. And I do that show with Howard Lapedis, who's the
show business legend. He's the manager of Doctor Drew Pinski and executive producer Celebrity Rehab Will Rehab and all the Doctor Druz shows. And he won a Ramzy for Freddie Got Fingered, which he produced, Sorry Don Greek Wrisk Picture of the Year. He was very proud of that and
our fact checker Mark Boyer. Now a few years ago, my co host was the Great Attorney Don Woldman, and repeats of those shows we're running on here Women Talk dot com for quite a while, and Hart, being a big true crime fan, asked Don and I who would but disipate at various times and recording some stuff and
doing some features. He takes the true crime the true Crime round Table that that uh Don and I did with Private Eye Fred Wolfson and the great Little call Field author of Houses Secrets, and the Don did a familous to do with Jerry Sts author of STI, Letters and Steel. But they'll probably be on some time in the future. We love working with Heart. It's you know, we've kind of do it, you know, a little bit of a time once in a while. We never quite
know how it's what format is going to be. But we love working with Heart and anytime something shows up that he uses us in, we're drilled. Yeah.
It's a great program too, And I've seen a couple Anthony Flacco's program, wrote to Hell, I believe.
It was was yeah, best when Heart was a co host on the show with Don and I and with Matt Allen's permission, videotape the actual radio show and to put it up on you know as a video cast, and also these shows ber Heart was a jest.
I like it.
They show our interview with Heart just before they run this movie The Garbage Man, which is which is great.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a great channel. So you've got yourself very very busy and.
Oh yeah, matter of fact, you're going to be doing You'll see me on Deadly Sins on Investigation Discovery, I think in January February an episode based on Mom Said Kill, and then they're also going to do one based on Murder in the Family, and then Behind mentioned Walls, also on an investigation. Discovery just tapped me to do a show based on Fatal Beauty. So you'll see a lot of me on a lot of me on TV this year.
Ah, great, good for you, fantastic Well, Brol, I want to thank you very much for coming back on to the program and talking about body Count and all the new some of the new developments, so we can't wait for something new to come out again. You're very very prolific in that area, so I know you're cooking up two or three things at one time.
I'm not even surprised, So thank you so much for having me on a DAN. I always always enjoy being on your show.
Well, thank you very much. Berlin will be in touch. And for those listening, you've been listening to the incredible and incomparable Burl Bear talking about body Count and the re release of body Count and the story of Robert Lee Yates Junior, the one of the Spokane serial killers. So a very very fascinating case and a very very fascinating book by Burl Beer. So thank you very much, Burl and Gady, thank you very much, Burke, good night,