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You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking Killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK every Week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
host journalist and author Dan Zufanski Good Evening. Known as the Vampire Rapist or Strangler Bill for his distinctive modus operandi, Wayne Bowden would rape, strangle, and bite the breast of his victims. Rampage would continue in two cities over three years. He was only caught by superior evidence gathering and the
help of an orthodontist. This book asked a question, how do we really know people when we don't want to ask the questions, not only because we don't want to know the answers for what it will tell us about them, but because of what it tells about ourselves. True crime author Alan R. Warn takes you through the details of the case, including the dental impressions used in court to convict Boden, a first in Canadian history, as well as Boden's escape from a maximum security prison.
The book that we're featuring this evening is Bloodthirst True Story of Wayne Bowden, Vampire Rapists, serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author and podcaster Alan R.
Warren.
Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for a greeted hiss interview. Alan R. Warren.
Well, thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Thank you very much. It is always our pleasure. Let's get right to this. I won't ask why you got involved in this. This is just an incredible story, and so get to this incredible story. You opened this book with talking about Wayne Boden's early life and where he
grew up. Which has done this Ontario? So tell our audience, our international and American audience, where done this is in comparison to say, Toronto and the nearest big city that it's located to before we talk about the early life of Wayne Boden.
Well done. This is really just a couple of miles from Hamilton, Ontario, and now it's kind of surrounded by Hamilton. It's become part of the city. But back when he grew up there in the sixties, it was very rural and not even really a city. It's more of a rural town. Just it's just it's hard to explain. So he didn't grow up in a big community. It was very small and very everybody kind of knew everybody, and it's one of those picturesque communities that you sort of
see on little house in the prairie type thing. Right, Yeah, so nothing, you know, one of those wholesome communities. You know, walk six miles school and back. So it's it's kind of a nice area to grow up in. And since then, of course it's it's kind of the city of Hamilton's grown right out and around it and kind of in in compass, just taken everything into it. So it's it's a different place now than what it was when he grew up there in the sixties.
Now you talk about Wayne's father's named Albert. You said he worked in a factory. He died when he was eighteen, and his mother was named Laverna, and she was thirty four when she had Wayne, and he was an older child. So tell us what you did find about his upbringing, as much as you could find out about his somewhat strange upbringing in this dome was there.
It was kind of yeah, it was kind of scattered, you know. He seems like his father died he was still fairly young, and he never really had a connection with his father. His parents slept in separate rooms, and his mother was quite a bit older, and she didn't read and write, but she used Wayne to do a lot of the things for him for her in the household that she couldn't do because she couldn't read and write.
She was very strict, authoritative, and it just had things that everything had to be done at a certain time, everybody ate at the right time. Like it was very you know, very planned precise, and she didn't take much for any sort of variance. So if he was late or if in order he got wrong with the dairy man and things like that, he would get in a lot of heck for it from her. And there wasn't really a loving relationship. There was no no bonding there.
There was. I don't know if it was the age that cost us, the diff difference in age and what exactly it was, and having no siblings. He spent a lot of his time alone and now at school, he played on the football team, but yet was not real popular. And the girls liked him because he had a good build and he was very quiet, soft spoken, and you know, handsome for them. So the girls did like him. But he spent his time with teachers, and he was known
kind of as a teacher's pet. You know, he would stay after class, you know, and clean the boards and do all the things that you know, a lot of people kind of thought of him as a teacher suck, you know, that kind of image, and he did get
himself into a few fights. So he wasn't real close to anybody in school and didn't have a lot of friends or relationships with people, so it was kind of a He spent a lot of time alone, and as we learned later, he sort of fantasized a lot and had dreams for himself becoming something and someone very popular, even though he was very shy.
You also talk and I think this is very important that you didn't really make this obvious, but very very interesting psychologically, is that you talked about his mother not being able to read or write, and he kind of resented that she didn't, and that she was embarrassed. And you write in a book that he told his teachers at school that she wasn't even alive. That's how embarrassed
he was. And part of this fantasizing, too, was that he really did admire these teachers and felt comfortable around almost no one accept these teachers, which, as we'll find a little bit later, is quite important teacher.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, he seemed to have a real affection for smart woman. It's sort of how I put it, because it was it was all about people that were, you know, ladies that were able to be assertive and smart and you know, in the sixties, but that was kind of a new thing, right. It wasn't as common as it is now. You know. It just wasn't the same feeling about the ladies in society than how it is now.
Now. He had aspirations. He had good looks, you say, these muscular played football, but he also thought he might have aspirations to model. He tried to be a salesman. Told us a little bit about his aspirations and what the results were, and what did he attribute any kind of failure If he did have any what would he attribute that to.
Well, you know, it's strange. He sort of had the idea he would always have dreams, as he wrote, how he would fantasize in his room all night about being someone famous, and he would affixed himself to a famous celebrity at the time and dreamed that he was that person. And he always saw himself on stage, almost like a singer, and he always saw himself as people loved him. And this never really happened and it never really came to be.
You know. His reason for moving to larger cities, first Hamilton and then Montreal was to get in to be a model, you know, because where he was in the Dundee Valley, there was no jobs for models. There was really no jobs. And his first jump was to go to Hamilton, which is kind of the Canadian equivalent of Pittsburgh or you know, more of a steel town, more of a manufacturing place. So we're not talking a real good location for a man to be a model, you know.
So he didn't stay there long and he skipped right into Montreal because Montreal at that time was the really the party capital of Canada, and it was known for its art and clubs and shopping and atmosphere, food. You know, it was really the place to be. So, you know, we even had you know, by sixty seven the Expo was in Montreal and you had ed sellon broadcasting as shows from Montreal. We had Jerry Lewis, we had so many celebrities in Montreal at the time. It was the
place to be. So that's where he had it, and he tried unsuccessfully to get different modeling jobs. Now I find nowhere in his writings, and nowhere in any information did he feel there was a problem with himself and that he wasn't getting a job because there was something wrong. He thought it just wasn't the timing it would happen. So I don't think he ever stopped believing throughout the whole Montreal time, because he kept trying, but he would only end up with rep jobs or sales jobs where
he would travel around the city and visit accounts. You know, he would be like a sales rep for a beauty line or a hairline and he would go into you know, different drug stores and he'd be selling to them, you know, the product and the sets and stuff and getting a commission. And that seemed to be the best he ever got as far as getting out there and selling. He was
really quiet. Remember he was very soft spoken and very very shy, and so that doesn't really go well in the sales business either, right, So you know, he never lasted more than well, I would say he'd did six months to a year at a at a certain sales job he would have and then it would he would end up with getting another one because the numbers weren't there and he so he did flip those jobs pretty frequently.
Now you talk about him moving, and this is in the summer of nineteen sixty seven. He was born in nineteen forty eight, so we're talking nineteen years always a young man. He's living in Montreal and all the heady environment. So in July and and tell us about again this is you explain, this is a very very awkward person, is very uncomfortable with people, it seems, and yet he was did not speak French as well. But what did
he see? Did he enjoy Montreal? And did he come out of his shell somewhat or more so in Montreal?
Well, you know, in some cases it would appear that he did come out and did come out more, but I think he was in a transition then, you know, and I think he had periods of time where he was himself and being alone, and then times where he would go out and become aggressive. But you know, little
things started happening. You know, when he would he would walk down Saint Catharine's which is a really major street in Montreal, big shopping district, and he would stand in the middle of the road and put his arms out, close his eyes and put his head up. And he would find himself getting excited having the crowds of people touching his hands as they were walking by. You know,
you get a picture. This is a very busy, busy street and you know, I don't want to say it this way, but I guess people were used to kind of weird people in the big cities. You know, you're walking down the main drag and there's you know, there's some people that are not normal. So they would just brush by and look at him and not really give them you know, second thought type thing. Just thought, well, you know, kind of a nut because here's this guy standing in the middle of the road with his arms
out and his eyes closed and hands it. You know, it just sort of seems strange. But he was finding himself getting a little bit thrilled by the unknown people walking by and touching him and moving him and brushing him almost in a way, being pushed by people and being called names. In a sense, he sort of enjoyed that. And I don't know, I never did figure out what about that particularly that he liked. Maybe he felt in
control and yet lost in such a large crowd. You know, that's just me guessing there was some thing about that. He started looking forward to going out and walking around doing that, so this became a common thing. Later we find out he wasn't really liking Montreal very much. He had a tough time driving there. He had a tough time because it's not a city like Calgary, where he moved later and some others were. It's really open, a
lot less people and easier to get around. You can get out in the car and drive and you know, within a half hour forty five minutes you'd be out of the city. So he missed that freedom that he probably had back in the Dundee Valley when he was growing up.
Now you talk. In nineteen sixty seven, in July, near the end of July, a woman named Norma Valancourt from a little small town, twenty one years old, is taking some course. He has to come to Montreal to finished some courses to become a school teacher. But she's enjoying Montreal, being from a small town. Montreal's great, and she's dating and she has some friends there. So tell us about this Norma Valancourt, this school teacher, aspiring school teacher. What
was she like and when did her friends? What did she tell her friends when she came home from shopping one night July twenty third, nineteen sixty seven.
Well, yeah, Norma, she was fairly young, you know, twenty twenty one, and like a lot of people, were attracted to Montreal. So she came from a small town, like you said, and she was looking, you know, because they offered courses she could become the teacher she wanted, and she was kind of an independent person. And again this was kind of like the time of you know, Mary Tyler Moore, you know, and I hate to use that, but it kind of gives you the idea that that
become a very popular symbol for single ladies. They wanted to empower and become independent and have their own apartment, which was you know, I want people to realize in sixty seven that was not normal. This was kind of a breaking a new trend, if you will. The independency, having a job, being a single woman, and having your own apartment in the city was not like it is now. It was not a common thing, and some people didn't like it. Some people would say bad things about it.
But in her case, she was totally excited. She you know, she loved it. She gained lots of friends, and this was what she was looking for in life, and she was she couldn't she couldn't say enough whenever she went home or talked to her mother about how good this was, and and she was meeting guys and this was an exciting time. She would be able to go out and have dates, go have good restaurants, go for a drink,
and so she was excited. And then I know that the time you were talking about is when she was shopping and she she had told her friends that she had to go home early and not stay out late, as she you know, was planning an early day the next day and she had to go to bed. But in truth, she was actually set up a date with a man and she had met him at a club a few nights earlier, and they hit it off instantly. He was very handsome, well spoken, lots of manners, you know,
to hold the doors, the chairs, everything. So she was really taken by him. And so as soon as she got home from her shopping she had to put on a new outfit and get her makeup done and be all ready and she wanted to tidy up the place. And then her date came and the next day she just never showed up for work, and her friends started getting worried. I think about four point thirty five.
And.
Soon after that somebody phoned the police and they were an anonymous phone call and said that a young woman had fallen ill and needed police assistance, and they didn't identify themselves, and before you know it, the police showed up and the apartment door was slightly open and they went in and no answer, and before you know it, in her bedroom they found her and she was laid out on the bed and she was dead, and there was no immediate obvious signs of why she had died.
They just there was nothing that really gave it away. There was a two drops of blood on one of the bed sheets, so they thought this could be fel play, and so they brought in uh Commander Cheap and he did the search and and talked to the neighbors and and then the photograph and you know, they took photographs and and you know, they they after a while they realized that the blood had came from her nipples and
her I believe her right neck neck. I think it was the right neck that he had did on the bite marks, and so that was it, center to the corner. And it just was one of those real shocking things because she was very popular and everybody seemed to love her. And back then you've got to realize the technology was, you know, not the best in the sixties, so it was just one of those unknown things at the time.
So there was that information about the breast being bitten and blood being drawn. Was hold back information held back by the police.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, at the time, they didn't give it out to the media. Canada has never been really I don't know to say, they've never been really good at putting out all this information. They might talk about a murder, but it's not like they would market it so to speak.
It wasn't like they would give it out. I think they were trying to keep it back then, just there's just a little bit secret as well, kind of hide a few things, not only from the public or media, but just in case they come up with suspects.
You know, now the person too, you mentioned the commander detective or the lead detective, and this will be important later as you know, the ties to this case is Andre Bouchard. So we'll just right for those listening, we'll remember that name, that lead detective, Andre Bouchard, will be re born. Later they realized that this person was known to this woman at least they didn't know how long. So, like you say, the technology was all technology was in
his infancy at that time. There's no more leads. They followed up with a canvas of the neighborhood and things and maybe if anybody thought she had it, but she didn't have a steady boyfriend. No, So this case goes cold, doesn't it.
Yeah, it goes cold pretty quick because they didn't you know, they checked around with people she was in school with and her neighbors, and talked to her family and what friends they could find. And she was a fairly I don't know, she was very very outgoing and she spent a lot of time going out shopping and going to bars, and she was really taking advantage of the city of Montreal. So it was really hard to pinpoint anybody, especially with
her at this time, because there was really nobody. They talked to a lot of people, but there was nothing that led them to any suspects.
Right now, you fast forward to the summer of nineteen sixty nine and a woman that's twenty years old named Shirley Audette, and she had moved to a Montreal and she had lived in the suburbs you say, least of the city, and she wasn't a school teacher. So tell us a little bit about Shirley Audette and what she's doing in Montreal and about her boyfriend and her living conditions before we talk about what happened in that summer.
Well, yeah, she was a little bit. She was different than the other girls what we get to in even Noorma, because yeah, she wasn't really an aspiring teacher, and she wasn't really an aspiring anything. And she had been in and out of mental hospitals and had lots of treatments, was on several drugs at the time for anxiety and stress and highs and lows she was kind of an unusual, shaky person, and she lived. She moved in with a guy, and she moved into the Dorchester and an apartment building
in Montreal downtown. And she was only twenty, but she was pregnant. Now it's kind of hard to determine whether it was her boyfriends or not. And I only say that because she was known to her boyfriend as well as her friends that she had to be very promiscuous. She had an open relationship with her boyfriend, and she had several men over and she was also into I guess we would call it S and M. She was
into a little bit of the rough stuff. And she would quite often have encounters with people she had met through a S and M group in the sixties, and a lot of them she wouldn't really know them. She would kind of know who they were, met them once and then would have an encounter with them. And it seemed to be okay. With the boyfriend, I you know, I can't explain exactly the details of their relationship other than he admitted that that's the type of relationship they
had and that that is what she liked. So the best I can say is she she never really worked, and she was on some sort of medication and had, you know, real panicky issues, real real psychological issues going on for a young girl in the city.
How is it that she may come in contact with her killer and she's living in this apartment building. So tell us about her behavior that leads to her demise.
Well, she would quite often her boyfriend worked in shifts, and when he worked at night, she hate it being alone. She was always scared, and so quite often she would sit out the front of her building on the stairs and would just talk to people. And so I'm trying to give you the type of picture who she was.
She was like only one hundred and thirty five pounds, five foot two, She's a small girl, and she so she wasn't threatening and she was very friendly, and so she would stand out there and talk to people and people would sit beside her on the stairs. She was very but she would do this all night. She would be like three in the morning, four in the morning because she didn't want to be alone in her apartment.
And then when she did go back, she would quite often call her friends at two three in the morning and even call her boyfriend at work. And she did this all the time. So she was really nervous, is what I'm saying. It's the best word. I don't want to call her anxious, but very nervous, and that I don't really know why. It's not like she had been
attacked or any of this sort of stuff before. And now, as far as we can understand, and that's from Wayne later, it's they had met on the front stairs when he was coming home from one of his jobs at night, and that particular night, her boyfriend was at work and they had met on the stairs, got along quite well,
and she had invited them in. So, you know, early on in the book, I don't really go through what happened in her case because we didn't know until later after finding out what Wayne Bone said, and so we only go by what he said, if that makes sense. Because all of a sudden, you know, the boyfriend comes home the next morning after work, and I think her
shoes were found out front. She wasn't there, and in the back was where she was found, laying up against one of the fire escape stairways, and she had fully closed, you know, except for her shoes, and she had been strangled and someone again had been rough with her and bit and there was blood as well, So I'm not sure if you want me to go further into that, I said Wain's point of view of what happened, because at.
That well, let's talk about let's talk about the similarities in terms of the blood letting. Was there the breast mutilation like and was there blood letting? Was there blood drawn?
Yeah, it was much the same blood on the neck, but on hers it was both sides of the neck and both breasts, but the left breast was is chewed on or mutilate it a lot more so it seemed like it was the same formula. And also both girls had been strangled, so it's sort of the same thing. It's sort of the same concept as and the person that was doing it was interested in tasting the blood and drawing the blood out, strangling them and raping them
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Is very interesting that obviously they clear the boyfriend of any possibility of being a good suspect. But they also again continue.
To not.
Reveal that that there was that breast mutilation or blood being drawn or any vampire mention. However, tell us what the police behind the scenes are saying and what are they talking about.
Yeah, now, the police, of course had a different opinion about what was going on, a different one than what they were letting out. And the other thing that we have to think of back then, and when I talk to the different people that the police that are still alive and still part of this case, every one of them had to mention about how bad the police were
being treated at the time. And I only bring this out and I specifically wrote a chapter because they made it a point to me, almost like excuse because we go through a couple of more murders in Montreal and really nobody's caught, and really it takes an accident for it to come out in the public what was going on. It wasn't something that they put out immediately, and a lot of it comes from they were you know, in sixty seven, there was the expo, there was a separationists
group in Montreal. Charles de Gaul from France was there Viva in the Quebec, and they wanted this separation and it would become a political party. And the police were dealing with, you know, one hundred bombings a year in the city, plus lots of other stress, and they felt they were totally underpaid and they were over pressured for what the work they were doing. And they all had to make it a point to me that I understood that.
And I hate to say this, but it's almost became an excuse of why they didn't really, I don't want to say investigate, but they they seemed to not put a lot of ties in together, if that makes sense. And so even though in their mind they knew there was something going on that they knew there was a vampire, and they knew there was this rapist killer going around, that wasn't really what the police that I talked to lat Oshimbo and some of them were, their focus was
not on that. Their focus was on the city. And you know, in the night that they went on strike and then the fires and a police officer was killed and banks were robbed, so it sounds like it was a real turmoil. And even when they decided to go back to work. They were not happy to go back to work, they felt like because they were forced to go back by the government. So it's still very big in the minds of the police of Montreal from that time.
And so that's still the biggest thing they mentioned when you talk to them about crimes from the late sixties. I don't know if that helps, but it sort of sets the stage of how and why the police were kind of maybe acting the way they were.
Right now, do the police, you say, the police obviously make a connection, at least unofficially, that these two murders are by the same person.
There's no leads.
When is it that? And what are the conditions that Wayne Bowden decides to move to Calgary.
Well, he doesn't move until a little bit later, and there's I believe, two more murders in Montreal, the same sort of patterns and so closer. You know, in the nineteen seventy early seventy he decides that he's going to head west and he ends up moving to Calgary. And it seemed to be, you know, was it that he wanted to get away? You know, he committed these crimes and who knows, you know. In his writing, his opinion
that he didn't remember any of these murders. You know, at the time, he in his mind, he was thinking he was dating these girls and then they broke up and he never saw them again. And it wasn't until he's in Calgary that he starts having flashbacks and memories of the rapes and the killings and it sort of scares him and even he didn't want a date. And he was probably in Calgary a whole year before he first sought into to meeting someone and then where he
eventually attacked and killed her. So in his mind, according to him, he's saying that he was avoiding dating girls because he was starting to remember. But in Montreal he didn't leave or run because he didn't remember hurting anybody. So that's another show you have got it, you know, and it comes from him, so and I'm not saying he's lying, but at the same time, I don't know how much of that's reality and how much it's that sort of his defense.
Right. Yeah, now you talk about the two other murders, so let's not skip over that. In January nineteen seventy you talk about a gene Way and this woman's like four foot eleven hundred and ten pounds. So I'm twenty four years old and she's in Montreal, and she had moved from a very rural area in Newfoundland from the East Coast and was working for a bank. So tell us about Jeane and how she comes to the web of Wayne Bowden.
Well, yeah, she was, like you were saying, you had a pretty good description of her. Now. In her neighborhood, she was a little bit outside of the downtown core and she was more in a kind of an upper middle class neighborhood. So it was considered a very safe neighborhood, very very comfortable neighborhood, a place that you could walk around and pretty much everybody you know, had jobs and
everything was pretty you know, nothing really much happened. And she was dating a young man, Brian Caulfield, and he was twenty two years old, and they had met because he was working at a broker's and she was at a bank. And they had met when she was doing some sort of transaction or run for the bank to the broker and apparently they hit it off right away
and become quite quite close and quite happy. And uh so, in in January, she was out shopping and she was looking for kind of new furnishings and she was trying to upgrade some She had different ideas about what she was going to do. And I think that what had happened was originally she started, you know, walking and looking around,
and she started noticing a guy. Everywhere that she went, and every store that she was in she noticed the same guy, and it wasn't long before she realized he was following her, and she felt kind of scared, you know, a little bit nervous, and so eventually she ran into a photo studio and said to the clerk, you know, there's this guy following me, and I don't feel very comfortable. And she was scared. And he went out, looked around
and he didn't see anything. Didn't see anybody, and he even said that, so he said, well, if you're really upset, I'll let you go out the employee entrance in the back. So he took her around to the back and let her go out, and she went along her way and he didn't see anybody following her, and he watched till she kind of went down the road and he came back out and thought everything was fine. So eventually she goes home and you figure, you know, everything's fine and so,
but it wasn't. She again, she was the next murderer, and she was found dead. Actually, her boyfriend had come over. And you see, and that's a unique, unique thing because the boyfriend had come over after work, knocked on the door, no answer, So he went to a local pub like a tavern, had a few drinks, comes back, knocks, still no answer, and he thought that's kind of weird because at first he thought, well, maybe she's late. Then he tried the door, opened up and she's on the bed
dead and she's been tied up. Goes to the police and lets them know. They come. But when we later here in Wayne Bowden's version, he was probably still in the apartment with her when the boyfriend first came. In fact, the first knock on the door, he was there with her and she was tied up and he was killing her. So it was kind of one of those you know.
Of course, none of us knew this at the time, but according to Wayne's writings, this is what happened because he was in there when the boyfriend came, and so it was kind of a you know, kind of a one of those makes you kind of the hair stand up when you hear things like that. And again breasts were were chewed, and in fact, this one was pretty severe. He had really drank a lot of her blood and really kind of chewed her up. It really went aggressive
on her. And why he never said why she was particularly he followed her and why he latched onto her, we don't really know exactly what it was because he had always looked for certain types of girls and I don't know what about her because she worked at a bank, But what about that scenario drew him there? So that was a kind of an interesting scenario. And then the boyfriend, of course was that first thought of as the person that was doing it, of course, because that's what they do.
And they cleared him shortly after. So again that was another victim and really no leads.
Now you talk about Wayne moving, the will jump ahead to nineteen seventy, Wayne decides to move to Calgary. You talk about Calgary being much different city. Four hundred thousand now it's one point one million by that time, before the big oil boom, before everybody from everywhere in can
that came to Calgary was four hundred thousand people. And one of those people knew people moving to Calgary was Wayne Bowden, So tell us a little bit about what he was doing in Calgary in terms of work and why he decided to move to Calgary.
Well, it's kind of one of those again, you know. Later the police assumed that he was running from Montreal, running from the victims there, and I don't know if I believe that. I'm not sure because in his mind, he really didn't do any of these crimes, you know, he didn't. He just went out with girls, broke up with him and nothing happened. But he was he was thrilled that it was so open that he could drive around and there was no ceiling. You know, it's the
big sky country. He felt very open. Plus, it also had the small town feel that his original home had, so it wasn't so congested like Montreal was. You know, you weren't having millions of people all in one short area, and he felt very spread out. There wasn't a lot of high rises, it didn't feel that way. Had a very country setting as well, and there were a lot of cowboys, you know. It was that it was really
more cowboy country at that time than Oil. I mean, it was about to change and it was starting to change, but it was really kind of cowtown and he seemed to be retracted to that. He found people friendlier, he didn't have to know French. It was much cheaper. It was like half the price. He didn't have to pay for parking. You know. It was just a totally different atmosphere. But at the same time, he had lots of opportunity because it was starting to boom. There was tons of jobs.
Sales jobs were really easy to get, and he started working again right away, and he started selling cowboy equipment though he knew nothing about it, and he seemed to jump right in, fit right in, and he sort of really loved the job, and he really loved what he was doing, and it was like starting new maybe or who knows, but this is where he said he started to have his nightmares and he started having flashbacks and memories of these girls being killed in his dreams in
his mind, that these girls that he had dated or been out with, and he didn't remember doing it at the time, but he remembers it now. So he was kind of going through a weird time. And that's the best we can assume. We can only tell you what he said. And then kind of what the police believed, but I think it's somewhere in between. I think it's
a combination of the two. And so he moved and seemed quite happy and would drive around a lot, and his course's territory went all the way to baf Banff is a real I mean, most people should know what Benv is now. It's a pretty terroisty ski town and it's a popular place to go, and so he would go out to there all the time, and that's where he met. His next victim was when he was in Bev on a trip.
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And right now my listeners can post jobs on ZipRecruiter for free by going to ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. One more time to try it for free, go to ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. Now, Alan, we spoke about Wayne Bowden finally being in Calgary. He's more comfortable. He doesn't believe he has anything to worry about. But as you say, according to him, things are changing for him. So tell us about this next murder, tell.
Us about this. Yeah. Yeah, he went to Banff and was doing some work, sales work, and he had saw a sticker, a Hamilton sticker on the back of a car and he saw a lady come out of it.
And what it was was it was Elizabeth Portius. Now she was a school teacher in Calgary, and she was thirty eight and she had come out there with another teacher and they were shopping and they were going to meet for dinner, and so she was just waiting at the hotel bar for her friend, and that's when he spotted the car sticker, and so he ended up to her and said, Hey, I'm from Hamilton, and they hit it off. They had a couple of drinks, exchange phone
numbers and had a really good time. So Ford. About a month later, back in Calgary, they had set up a date somehow, you know, he must have phoned her and they decided, well, let's kind of go out and do something. Now, I have to say, Elizabeth Portius now was a thirty eight year old teacher, but she was still single, and she had really been hoping to meet someone. But it was strange that she had chose Calgary as the place to live because she really didn't like ranchers
or cowboys. She didn't really like the western thing. So I couldn't really find out in any direction from anybody why she would choose Calgary then, like that seemed to be the last place she would go if you don't like cowboys and ranchers, you know, especially back then. But that's where she was and she was still single and thirty eight. She did want to have children and she did want to be a wife, but she was very independent, so it had to be a particular type of guy.
So it seemed like he was the perfect guy, and she was pretty excited. She told all the other teachers and friends that she was going to go on a date with this guy. And she was pretty excited because he was, you know, good looking, and worked and wasn't a cowboy, you know, he wasn't into all that stuff. And he liked smart women. He liked women that were teaching and being independent and equal to men. So they
hit it off, and so they started to date. Now, of course, the same thing sort of happened to her. All of a sudden, she turns up dead, he doesn't show up for her work. School sends people out and they find her and she was lying on the floor in the front of the center room, so in her front room, almost her greeting room. It's kind of them I nude, and and she had been she'd been a little bit more beaten than some of the other bodies. It looked like she had been into a scuffle, more
of a fight. So it wasn't long before. Of course, the police were showed up in the forensic photographs and all that was done. And in this case we had Detective Rick Talbo who's still with Calgary Police Department, and so he did a lot of the investigations and what they had found on in her particular cases, she was wearing kind of a top of blouse and whoever had attacked the shirt open and all the buttons came off.
But someone had taken a button from her. So why, you know, who knows, but they had because none of the other bodies in Montreal this was done to. So he chose to take one of her buttons home and so that was it. And so now the police started investigating, and of course they went to her work. And there was another male teacher that was with his wife the same night the night before when she was out on the date with Wayne Bowden, and he had seen them on I think it was Fourth Avenue which is one
of the main streets, at a light. Now he saw them talking getting along really well in the car and didn't bother them, but he was able to give a description of the car. And also there was a particular kind of a bauble head kind of a lion or tagger that would shake, and it was in the back dash. Gribed all this. The police did a typical search and they found a couple of Mercedes that were the same color, and they kind of they waited outside and they spot
at this one. They saw the head moving, so they went in and knocked on Wayne's door, and he was very polite. Police questioned him, brought him in, and that's kind of what was the beginning of the end for Wayne.
You also talk about and just to show his cool nature under questioning. They had found a cuff link that was sort of embedded in her or on top of her Yeah, which yeah, police found and we'll talk about that. What they do with that information? Now they have the car, They bring him in for a question. He's not arrested. Tell us what proceeds from there, Why, what do they believe at that time and what call do they make? What do they find out about Montreal at that same
time or shortly after? Tell us how this turn of events happens.
Well, you know, the officers brought him in and then when Taba was starting to talk to him and even you know, and this is a comment of Tabo himself, the detective. He said that what was he was a very nice and this is this is how charming he was. That cop actually said he was the Wayne Bone was the type of guy that he would be proud to be dating his own daughter. So even the detective liked him that much, you know. And so so he had
a real charisma about him that was people liked. And so they sat down and talked, and at first I don't think they really thought this was the guy, because because that's what the cop was feeling about him, that's interviewing him. This guy's really nice, you know, he isn't the guy. And the thing that gave it away was
the cuff link. Like you mentioned, the cuff link was found folded in the body of Portius, and so they brought it out in a bag and took a chance and showed it to him, and he said, yeah, that's mine. It was a particular one that was given to him from his kind of I think it was a grandmother gift to him. So it was unique. It wasn't just
a store bought commercial thing. It was very unique. So he identified that and right away that kind of put their you know, the radar came up, you know, that kind of and then but the thing is, he was, like you said, very calm, and he was almost like, yeah, that was mine. Actually I must have dropped it. Yeah I was with her. We dated and we went out, and he wasn't He didn't show the nervousness or you know, anything that would would make you think that he was
the murderer. He just seemed so calm, and it was it was kind of an unusual thing. I think the police were kind of mixed into that. And yeah, when they find out about his history, like where you came from, and he's like, why vood from Montreal? And then they called back in Montreal and that's when they out about there was four different girls in Montreal that had been found with as much the same you know, strangled, raped, breasts and neck had been bitten, and blood had been
taken and had much the same sort of scenario. So all of a sudden, it sort of it e raised another flag, you know. And eventually another piece of evidence was when they searched his apartment, they found that button that had been collected from Elizabeth Partia's shirt her blouse. So you had three kind of substantial pieces of evidence that were kind of leaning towards he was with her when that blouse was ripped off, you know, becauseaid, why would he have her button?
Now you talk also about again we talked about this incredible police work. It just happens to be a detective Madson just happened to be reading about the British police involved in a case where bitite marks had been identified and clearly established the identity of the person responsible for the crime. So and this evidence had been used in court before. So Masden tell us a little bit about this initiative which is leads to this history making decision here or this evidence gathering.
Yeah, because I mean when had happened is once they presented the three pieces of evidence to Wayne Bowden, he admits, okay, I did it to the girl Elizabeth Portius and Calgary, but not the Montreal girls. So that's kind of what they were thinking. Okay, you know, you know, so they called Montreal detectives from Montreal come out to talk to him, and then all of a sudden he recants. When the Montreal detectives come and they say he also says, no,
I didn't do it, you know. So they were all sitting there in Madison said well, we've got to have something more. We don't have enough. And he had been reading in like you were saying in British because they had solved about twenty murders now with bitemark technology, so they were actually imprinting and they had twenty nine points of teeth established in their little sort of formula of convicting someone from bite marks. And so at first they contacted the FBI, and the FBI said, no, we have
never done this before. So they actually had to send to London and that's when they hired an orthodontist and they came out. And so even after Bowden says, yeah, I did it, and then he says, no, I didn't do it, they say, we'd like to take a dental impression. They said, yeah, okay, sure, So they let him take a dental impression of his mouth and he had no idea because you know, in the sixties, no one ever heard of this, and they I guess he wasn't scared
at all. And with the dental impression, and the orthodotist was actually what convicted him. That was kind of the the thing that did it, because twenty seven of the twenty nine points matched perfectly on actually four of the five bodies, so they convicted him only four times over.
Now with this as well, we've have to explain for our international audience that at the time and until recently not too many years ago, there was no concurrent sentencing,
even for life sentences for any crime, including murder. So if you were to receive a life sentence in this particular case, you would have up to twenty five or twenty five years to life for first degree murder in this particular case, those other murders would be he would be given a life sentence, but concurrent sentencing, which means that they don't count. It's only the one life sentence, right correct.
Right, right, Yeah, And that's sort of you know where it comes from. I don't know, like why they decided to do that, you know why that was so possibilities of parole come up on these cases, whereas if you know, you get put away twenty five years to life with possibility of parole in ten even though you've got four
of them, you still can come up in ten years. Yeah, So it's kind of you know, I think it doesn't it's it doesn't make sense, and it's not I don't think it's a you know, personally, I'm not behind that sort of thing. You know, if you'd get four life sentence or four to twenty five year sentences, that should be one hundred years.
Sure, right, And I got to say too, the correction has been just a few years ago. You can now receiving Canada three consecutive twenty five year sentences, so in effect, you can get up to seventy five years before eligibility of parole.
Yeah.
So now let's talk about Wayne Bowden, because this is separate. Once you're going into an institution, it really doesn't matter that you bit one woman seventy seven times in her breast and drew blood. It really makes no difference. He's a model prisoner. So tell us about this model prisoner. Where he did time and what happens after ten years? As you write in your book, well, you.
Know, he starts in Montreal and ends up in Toronto, like in Ontario. He's so he was in two different prisons. But he was a model prisoner. You know, he did all the right things, never caused a problem. He was trusted, you know, member trust it. I don't know, you know, a person behind bars and now Canada for some reason, in this time period of the seventies, decided that sexual predators such as him, people that had had attacked and sexually assaulted and killed someone or treat it worse by
lifelong inmates. And because of that, we decided that we should have some compassion for these people and help with rehabilitation. So we would give them day passes. So in his particular case, they would take him to an art museum, because that was his desire, you know, So they thought that would be part of the rehabilitation, taking him out with an art professor and three guards, and they would spend the day with the professor explaining art and taking
him on a tour. I guess as you will, and as well as they would take him for lunch at a hotel. And so you know, and I will say, he wasn't the only criminal that this went for. There wasn't like he was the only one. It was any model prisoners like himself that we're in for that kind of crime.
Now, you say that he asked to use the washroom, and like protocol, you would think that one of the guards would go with him. But again, model prisoner, what happens and also tell us this very interesting point about because it's very important. As you draw this fantastic picture of the date from hell later a little bit later in the books, So tell us about what he achieves behind bars remarkably, Well, yeah it was.
And you know, he went on this first day pass and nothing happened. Everything was great. He was he was a good prisoner, if you will. He went on the day path, did everything he was supposed to, came back, never caused trouble. Now, the second time they took him out at lunchtime, he needed to use the bathroom and they were in the hotel, and so what the guards did was because they were eating, all three of them said yeah, okay, go ahead, and they never accompanied him
into the bathroom. He never came back. So he goes about his day. Now the top is off. When he was in prison, he applied for an American Express card and he got it, and he's in prison. Now, how a criminal in prison can get an American Express card? Now, I want to bring your attention to this. Is this, you know, the seventies, eighties, this whole period of time, an American Express card was a hard card to get at the time. Back then it was a special card.
Remember it was one of those with no limits that you had to pay off every month. So it was kind of someone that's usually prestigious and had a lot of mone or a business or something that would happen. So how he got it, and he had it for seven years in prison and kept it so not only did when he escaped and the guards didn't follow him into the bathroom, but he had that card on him, so they didn't search him properly either. So he took
that card. He bought new clothes, he rented a hotel, and then he started going out and eating and he was hanging out on the bars. So keep it blind. He didn't try to leave, He didn't try to escape. He didn't buy a plane ticket, he didn't buy a car, he didn't do anything weird. He just got a hotel, clothes and said, well, I'm going to have a good time and he went out to bars and that's when he met two ladies and at the first time, at a nighttime at a bar, had a really good time.
They were really impressed with him because he was good looking or nice new clothes and had an American Express card and bought them rinks and then they had to go to work, so they didn't stay with them all night. And the next day one of the girls decides she's going to go on a date with him, and she was really smitten with him. She really thought he was the man. And so they're on their second date, kind of a lunch date in a pub and getting along great.
And that's when the police did catch up with him. So that was the date from hell because when they just raid at the bar, and of course took him down and took her down too, because at the time they didn't know who's what you know what I mean, they just took him down. They booked her and him, threw her in one of the cars in cuffs and took her away, and she was in one of the interrogation rooms, had no idea what had happened. It was totally like, oh my god, it's like what's going on.
And then they had to come in and tell her that who she was out with was the known vampire killer.
Now I wanted to do this because sorry, I wanted to ask this. When he escaped, we didn't talk about I mean, obviously the police are more than embarrassed, it's beyond embarrassment, but how big a story was the escape of the Vampire Killer.
It was almost nothing. It was almost nothing, And I attribute that to the time and the way Bedia was back then. I mean, it's not like we just now. Plus being in Canada, things were more limited and what information comes out escaped prisoner and that's it. It's not like they went on it. And our media didn't jump on this until after he was caught. So if there wasn't like a huge panic, but there was some, I don't know if that was sure.
Very interesting is that. One of the most profound moments in this book is when do you have this woman again? They both meet Wayne Boden, but she is smitten. She's very excited about this date. Then she thinks, wow, what a gentleman. He asked me if I want to continue to date. I said no, But then I made another date for him, the lunch date, And she says, as you say in the book. According to her, she thought
it was very gentlemanly like. But if he would have asked her to have a rendezvous that afternoon, she said she would have went for it. She was hook line and Sinker, very very interested in Wayne Bolden, wasn't she?
Oh yeah, she told her friend that night, you know, the night before when they were all out for Drakes, that if she didn't have to work, she would have went home with him that night. She was so taken by him. Everything about him looks just everything, you know. So he had a charisma or charm that the police detectediked him. You know, he had a way about him.
And I can't explain what it is because I don't know, you know, and then and at the time, you know, and the pictures that of him, you know, he had the sideburns, he had the right look for the time, so I guess he was the right looking guy in the right time period. It was just crazy and maybe being so soft spoken at the same time as being good looking just did it. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the thing was, you know. But even when your detectives are saying, God, I'd like him to be
dating my daughter, I mean, wow, wow, that's something. Now. An American Express, I will say, has done an internal investigation to find out why. We don't really know the results, and those three guards were reprimanded for the you know, not doing their job as we would say, you know, so there was proper follow up, according to authorities, but it's just another strange thing in crime that happens when we get into the policing and the jailing of people.
It was interesting too, is the two women, Gloria Newsome and her friend Rita.
They both.
Remember him talking and see him calling himself Bill. But he also said he'd loved female teachers as they were always so intelligent and had such wonderful conversations. So it really was a big issue right from the very beginning that you could see coursing through these crimes and his life and his fantasies, wasn't it.
Oh yeah, yeah, he had something about you know, and I sort of that's kind of what I attribute to the unusual, like you know, in gene aigh or something, someone that's not a teacher. But why was he following her and why he was so attracted? It must have been something about independence, about strength. So a single woman walking in buying furniture, a single woman going and being And it sounds silly now because this is something that
happens all the time in modern times. You know, there's an equality and it's not unusual, but back then it was unusual. A Mary Tyler Moore image was not normal and to have a twenty year old instead of thirty five like they tried to portray with Mary was very strong and independent and sometimes not appreciated in society, you know,
and look down upon. And some people were, even the police, when you talked and looked at the girls and when they were attacked, a lot of their attitude was, you know, that's it wasn't she wasn't a proper woman to be twenty and living in an apartment and working by herself in the city. Like a lot of the thought, you know, even the police were like, well, she was obviously not a proper woman. You know, what does that mean? You know, I couldn't imagine that being said in twenty seventeen.
Yeah, well no it might not be said, but well it could be thought.
But you know, it's just not the same, if that makes sense. It's not unusual. You gotta remember also when these girls were renting apartments and doing things, it was quite a challenge for a single woman to get an apartment in nineteen sixty seven. Yeah, probably, yeah, and we don't really realize the times it's changed that much. So it was kind of so they were kind of he sought out that independence. It wasn't like he was looking
for a married woman or anything anything else. He just wanted a single, independent person that was able to manage himself. Because though he really had an attraction for teachers, he would also settle for someone that was, you know, living on their own and working at a bank, you know, so that there was something about independence and maybe teachers represented that for him. That was probably one of the first major jobs in the sixties or a female to have that was in a kind of an power position,
you know. I'm you know, and again I can only guess because we can't say for sure. You know, why was he after a girl in a jewelry store and after the other one that was a banker. There was something about their independence that he found attractive.
What did you find out after through the interviews with him, when he was more candid, or at least he seemed more candid. What did you determine as you wrote, as you include in the book, that Wayne Bowden said that differed, and what was his justification for this and how much did he actually admit to really in the end in terms of his responsibility for this.
You know, I don't know, and I say that because I fluctuate back and forth. It's so hard to know what to believe when someone's so convinced of it himself. So when a person comes across, like he comes across saying that he had no memory of any of this stuff. But in the end he seemed to only see he would date these independent, strong women, but would never make a move on them sexually. And he was trying to avoid that because he always seemed to break up with them.
They always seem to end, and then later he had the memories of what he did according to him, so in you know, he couldn't get aroused. So like when a woman started coming on to him and kissing him, he couldn't perform sexually unless he had blood in his mouth. He had to have the taste and the warmth of the blood, and that was what And so he would get involved with him and then he would go too far and draw blood by biting them on the neck
or something. They would fight back, scream, and then that's when he would kick in and he would choke them. He would kill them, and he was aroused, and then he would have sex with them when he had already killed them. But that's the part that he said it was all blacked out until years later, you know, so I kind of fight with what was really going through. I mean, I think he really believed that, but I
don't think it's necessarily true. So that's kind of where I fall in between, because I though in his mind it might have been what he thought happened, I think it was something else.
Was there any indication that he courted or enjoyed or titillated at all by the notoriety that he had gained from this vampire killing strangler bill designation?
I you know, I don't know. I don't know. He seemed to use it more of a sickness and more of you know, he was the model guy in prison for years and didn't cause any trouble and only escaped to try and do it again. So again, was that a sickness or was it a draw? You know, he escaped really with the intent I think to kill another woman. He did not try to escape, he didn't try to go anywhere. He had a card that he could have
taken a plane or a trip. And this is back when they didn't you know, how hard were they checking when you got on planes?
Mm?
Hm? You know, he could have busted anywhere he could have. He could have done a lot of things. He didn't have that in mind at all. He wanted to dress up, look good, go out and drink and party with the girls.
So he also with this last almost murder, it was the same modus operandi, and almost it's the same scenario. He let them off the hook the day before. He didn't force them or act disappointed, and just set up another date. He was patient in that regard, but charming for hours. They mean they spent hours they did, laughing and staying at lunch. So he was determined, but also very very very patient and what he wanted to do same he was.
And you have to think that too, because that also kind of it kind of backs up his story of being He liked being around them, he enjoyed the conversation, would spend hours, and tried not to have sex with him. In his mind, he said he tried not to because by the time Calgary happened, he had remembered so he knew that if he would get sexual that it would end bad. So he's saying that he tried not to go that far. He would never make the move on the girl sexually. She would come on to him, so
he was saying that. You know, it was sort of his way of kind of defending himself.
But in that same sense, he had some idea of who what a good girl, wasn't a bad girl, it seemed, and again he always kept the high ground and let these other people in his mind do something that was out of the ordinary or not prudent enough.
We'll say, oh, totally, I mean I think that, Yeah, that's what I mean. I'm sort of in between. I don't know how to judge him because some of his actions look one way, but his words look the other, you know. And because we only have him left to tell you what I mean at the time, left to tell us what happened from his point of view, again,
I have to say what comes from one side. We don't have any of the girls here to tell us what happened between them, you know, you know, the ones that were killed, So we don't know would he have killed this last one that he was with at the bar when he got arrested, would he have gone through with it? He just kept on having fun with them. You know, she was kind of had the intent of
taking him home. Would she have taken him home and would he have actually killed her or would he have just avoided that, like he said, he wanted to avoid. You know, we don't have anybody else, you know, just to say, you know, and I'm not defending him, so no bad emails. I'm not I'm just trying to understand.
I'm just trying to understand it. And again, it's one of those cases of a serial killer that gets put away and we don't really have any anybody that analyzed him professionally to give us an you know, any sort of you know, it's all after the fact that we have people throwing things in at us and I don't know, I heard a couple of different stories and I don't know, you know, you don't really know. They never got to interview him professionals like that to come out with a good assessment.
You talk about changes in day passes, at least when it applies to convicted murders, or well maybe that's not what it applies to. Tell us what changes, any real changes they made after this, You would think that would be considered a major bungling.
Well, you know, the way they handled it was and you know, it's down to human flaws, like the guards and the way it was handled, but not necessarily the pass. It's kind of how the corrections have answered that, so they're saying that, no, it's not the system. It wasn't what we were doing. It was just the particular people doing it, the guards at the time that didn't do their job correctly. But the system of rehabilitation is a
good one. So so some things have changed. It's not like it is and we're not but we're doing things to rehabilitate by having classes now, so we send people to classes to learn art rather than take them to a museum with a professional instructor. Will actually just send twenty people to an instruction or have an instructor in. So they sort of change the way they give these compassionate day passes to these prisoners rather than taking them on field trips as you would say, maybe you know,
so it's kind of the way they've done it. And again, you know, in Canada, you don't hear about a lot of these things because it's not marketed the same way. You know, you don't have all these shows on and all these you know talking about this is what's going on. So a lot of times people don't realize you know, until they read a book or do something and they kind of go, wow, I didn't know that, you know, cause you know what it's like. You live in Canada, so you do have an idea of the system, so
you could probably actually speak to that. Like there's a lot of things you find out probably with your show that you have no idea went on in Canada because it's not like there's the media that does that sort of thing.
No, and it's it's there's we can't even go into how many of the reasons for the coverage that it seems normal crime coverage and interest in America seems almost the opposite in Canada. What I wanted to say, I wanted to thank god we can have artists art appreciation in prison for people with life sentences.
I know, I know, I know.
It's money well spent right there.
Yeah, you know that. That Actually what is what drew me to this case when r J was looking for others for the series was because it, like Russell Williams, it has a unique twist to it, like this about
the justice system itself, not even just the crime. There's serial killers, but this was really unique that you know, it's another thing I didn't even know we did, you know, we're rehabilitating these people like that, you know, in that system too, like we're actually paying a professor is day's wage to take someone out like that is what really kind of threw me, just just.
Just that twist to it, you know, Yeah, absolutely, you know.
And I will say, of course, you know. And of course he did die in prison or in hospital because he had become sick and they took him to the hospital. He had skid cancer and he spent the last three months in the hospital where he died of cancer because it had gone too far so they couldn't save them.
Yeah, and that was in two thousand and six, right,
so cosiderable amount of time. Yeah, it's a very interesting story too, because of the lack of I'm sure most Canadians wouldn't know of this story whatsoever, and of all the dynamics of a serial killer, a vampire serial killer from a big city Montreal, while category is of a big city two relatively and and for this story to not be known, I mean, I don't know what kind of particulars would interest the media first to be able to say, hey, there's a story that people might be
interested in but regardless of the time, I think that still I just have to applaud you for bringing this story to light because I know that this is a an incredible story. That's and you don't have vampire killers as a rule. I mean, they're very rare, as much as they may be in the subject of fictional stories, it's in true crime circles. Still, the vampire killer, the person that's actually drinking blood and killing, is quite rare.
Yeah, And you have to also point out with him unlike let's say the American vampire killers as we know them. You know right down there, they were eating body parts as well, right, So it became this was different. He wasn't taking parts of the body and eating and going all out like that. He had a different way about him.
And I have to wonder, you know, that's why a lot of these people, I wish we had someone that was a professional that actually got to interview him, you know, psychologist or something and could learn something.
Well, again, it's it wouldn't be the first person that were to go into prison and try to get the truth. But as in my experience anyway, and again there's many people more experienced. Most of these guys, I don't know if you can trust the truth from them, because you can see it's a mix of self angerandizement and exaggeration. There's truth certainly in there. I mean, but where does the lie begin and how far does it extend? And are they downplaying or are they up playing what they're doing.
So it's hard to say, and I think I think people would agree with that and that it's hard to say what exactly the truth is. However, we've seen extreme cases where again it may be over the top, they may be exaggerating, but there is truth in all of this, which is again hard for you to say either way, again because I understand the truth is hard to ferret out completely, but the truth is definitely in there.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's That's sort of why I say I'm kind of in between, because I think some of his actions fit what he said happened in his mind, but all of them I'm not sure, you know, you know, was it the girls that were coming on to him, like he said, and that's how he reacted. He lost control, then he lost his memory. I don't know, but a lot of the actions fit that. And it's not a defense, it just is what it is like, I'm not saying, oh,
that's you know, that's why. I'm just saying that maybe some of what he said there's some truth to what he was trying to tell people about why he did thinks.
Well, it seems again I wouldn't want to go on and analyze this for too long, but it seems that there's many reasons to downplay your responsibility in that he already admitted that he dearly didn't want to be known as a rapist, just for good relations in prison and otherwise. So I don't know if you can you can say that it isn't again convenient for every person to say, oh, blackout and then later I had some recollection, but not
enough to stop, not enough to turn himself in. And so again, as much as they're trying to garner sympathy for themselves, this is as far as they go, because they also do. I think it's a mix of many things. Of course, I think when they are arrested sometimes they want to act again, how can you have remorse after you've done what some of these people have done. It would be a natural response, just as your lawyer instructs you at the sentencing day, to show some remorse. Do
you have anything to say? What you think you're going to say? You're going to say. Most people are going to say, I'm sorry. So I think that this is there's some part of it, and it's very convenient to say you blacked out. That being said is a mental component to this person. Certainly a psychological component to these murders and rapes and strangulations. Obviously.
Yeah.
I just think it's it's dangerous to start, especially in Canada, as you know, to start saying, geez, he blacked out and he doesn't remember. That's a defense.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. I kind of can't. I didn't want to lay it on one or the others, so I just put it out there. This is what he said, This is his claim, and this is kind of what happened. Something's fit, But I don't think it all does. I think it's something that you know, maybe he believed some of it in his mind. Maybe this is what he believed, or maybe this is
just what he was playing with people. Because someone with that much charisma and charm that even the cops were impressed with him, there's you know, it's hard to say what's real and what's not you know, it's just this whole gray area. But people loved him, you know, obviously they were very charmed with him. You know, he had the right combination of looks and personality and actions he must, you know, everybody said how well mannered he was. I
don't know. It was just the right combination and he used that knowingly or not, I don't know, But certainly I don't think he should have been innocent. I don't think anything. He should have just been put away, period done. You know, that's just my opinion. But you know, I'm just the writer.
Yeah, I want to thank you Ellen for coming on and talking about But there's the story of Wayne Bowden, vampire rapist, serial killer for those people that might want to look at other work, like your other work about Russell Williams, Colonel Russell Williams above Suspicion. You have a Facebook page where a website tell us a little bit about how people might contact your find out more about your work.
Well, you can find me on Facebook, you know, Allen R. Warren. I also have an author page on Facebook, and then of course somethingweirdmedia dot com. It's a website that I'm part of and my show shows are on there plus the books, and that's probably the best, probably one of those three right there. And I'm on Twitter of course and Instagram and all those things as well.
And you, along with Kevin, our host of House of Mystery, you creators of this fine true crime podcast, tell us a little bit about where they can find a House of Mystery.
Well, we're on uh KK and W in Seattle. It's eleven fifty am and it runs Fridays four to five and Wednesdays from three to four of course, so you can go to KK and W and then look up House of Mystery or on something weird media site. And we have a YouTube page as well, just House of Mystery.
Well, I wanna thank you again Allan for coming on and talking about Bloodthirst. Thank you very much and hope to talk to you again soon. Thank you very much. Have a great evening you too, Thank you, thank you, good night.
Thanks