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Good Evening. For the first time in forty years, Former New York Times editor Michael Kanal has on earthed the full story behind two ruthless New York cops who acted as double agents for the mafia. No episode in NYPD history surpasses the depravities of Lewis Epildo and Stephen Kara Kappa, two decorated detectives who covertly acted as mafia informants and paid assassins in the Scorsese world of nineteen eighties Brooklyn.
For more than ten years, Epildo and Kara Kappa moonlighted as the mob's early warning alert system, leaking names of mobsters, secretly cooperating with the government and crippling investigations by sharing details of surveillance, phone taps and impending arrests. The Lukhesi boss called the two detectives his crystal ball. Whatever detectives knew, the mafia soon learned most grievously. Epilito and Kara Kappa earned bonuses by staging eight mob hits, pulling the trigger
themselves at least once. Incredibly evidence of their wrongdoing arose in nineteen ninety four, FBI officials failed to muster an indictment. The allegations lay dormant for a decade and were only revisited due to relentless follow up by Tommy Dades, a cop determined to break the cold case before his retirement. Epilido and Kara Kappa were finally tried and then sentenced to life in prison in two thousand and nine, nearly
thirty years after their crimes took place. Canal's Blood and the Badge is based on entirely new research and never before released interviews with mobsters themselves, including Sammy the Bull Gravano joining me to discuss his new book, Blood and the Badge, the Mafia to killer cops, and a scandal that shocked the nation. New York Times editor and author Michael Canal, Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Michael Canell.
And Dan, thank you for having me.
Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary new book, Blood and the Badge, the Mafia, Two killer cops and a scandal, the shock the nation.
Yeah, thank you, thank you, Dan, Thank you for thank you for your interest in this book, a sprawling and some might say complicated book about two corrupt cops who were secretly on the mafia payroll.
Now you talk about that, you are not the first to write about Louis Epolito and Steven Kara Kappa. You are, however, the first to recount their long, entwined story in its toutality. Much of what you've written here has gone unreported until now. Tell us how it is that now this information is available.
Yeah. I had written a book about the Mafia in the nineteen thirties and forties, a book called A Brotherhood Betrayed, which was really about murder incorporated the assassination arm of the mafia at that time. So I was reading and reporting and researching in the mafia field, and I became aware of the story of these two decorated detectives, high ranking detectives in the NYPD, who were moonlighting for the mob. I mean, it was not as you say, entirely a secret.
It had been written about before. Some of the investigators had written I think written about them. I would say maybe incomplete books. They were published before the story had really ended, And of course the New York City newspapers covered their story, but I really thought there was an
opportunity to tell the complete story. My publisher agreed. A little bit of time has passed, and I think stories like this are often told better in hindsight, after a little bit of a little bit of space between the events and the writing. Part of what made the difference for me was that the investigators DEA FBI, NYPD were willing to talk about it in this you know now.
I don't know that they would have talked to me ten years ago or fifteen years ago, but they did talk to me now, and a really good number of them, I mean a couple dozen of the investigators opened up to me. I think it was in part because, as I say, time had passed, and just partially because they
trusted me for whatever reason. And there may be perhaps at a stage in their life when they want to they want to talk about what they've done in about their careers in a way that they would not have earlier.
Let's get to this fascinating story, and you have in part one you take us to October nineteen seventy nine and a funeral for Jimmy the Clam Epilito, a captain for twenty years who had a crew. Let's talk about Detective Louis Epilito and his wife friend and what happens at that funeral.
Yeah, I mean, part of what is I hope interesting about this book is that its main character is the detective Louis Epilido, who was born into a mafia family. His father was a captain in the Gambino crime family known as the Gangster, and his uncle was a capo, a captain known as Jimmy the Clam. Jimmy the Clam was shot and killed along with his son, due in part to some mistakes that his son had made, and
so of course Louis Eppolito goes to his uncle's funeral. Now, a New York City detective is supposed to is supposed to keep his distance from known criminals, and I think, probably for some very brief period of time, Louis Eppolito tried to do that, but his family drew him back in and he began to consort with the wise guys, talk to the wise guys, do favors for the wise guys,
and eventually much worse. The scene that you're describing where Louis Epilido and his wife Fran drive in from Long Island to attend his uncle's funeral is a opening scene in which Epilido is seen mingling once again with his family members and friends. And that the atmosphere there is that the notion there is that Epilido really can't escape his bloodlines. Like many people, his family draws him back in and so of course for him, this is a
fork in the road. It's the first in a series of many events that draw him into this collaboration with the worst elements in the mob.
Now tell us how he teams up with this Stephen Kara Kappa and what are they like and how to they assend as policemen in the NYPD.
Right, So, just to back up a little bit, Louis Epolita's father, Fat the gangster no surprise, was a violent and abusive character, and Louis grew up in that atmosphere his father. His father would hit him or beat him for any even the smallest in fraction, and weeks after Fat the Gangster died of a heart attack, his son Louis joined the police academy, which was an unmistakable act of rebellion against the family, and people couldn't believe that he would do such a thing. He lied about his
family background in his application. I'm not sure that it would have made much of a difference if he had told the truth. This was the time when the Vietnam Draft was skimming away eligible young man who might might otherwise have joined the police department. The police were desperate for recruits, so I think they would have I think
they would have hired practically anybody. At the same time, his future partner and best friend, a young man named Stephen Kara Kappa, joined the police Academy about the same time. He had been charged with a felony. He had been caught stolen loading stolen goods into a rented truck as a teenager. The charge was dismissed. He went to Vietnam and came back. It's the same situation there was. You know, the police might not have hired somebody with a felony
on their record, but they are desperate for hires. These two were put together as detectives in a unit known as Robbery South that means South Brooklyn and Kara Kappa and actually went to their boss and said, I can't work with this guy. I should explain that these two were opposites in every imaginable way. Louis Eppolito was a big, heavy, loud, borish, vulgar bully, and Kara Kappa was the opposite. He was very trim, very very quiet, quiet, almost to the point
of mute, and always impeccably dressed and appropriate. They were like Laurel and Hardy. They were opposites, but somehow so some it might not have surprised the boss when Kara Kappa came and said, I can't work with this slob, this loudmouth slob Louis Epolito. But the boss said said, okay, give it a month and if you still feel that way after a month, come back to me. And he never came back. And somehow these two forge some kind
of the relationship. And one of the mysteries of their friendship is how they broached this subject, how they agreed that they were going to launch this illegal career working for the mob.
Who is their connection. And when they try to go to another level of crime, they're doing crimes to supplement their police incomes. But who is their connection to this next level of criminality and what do they offer in that new role.
It happened this way. There was at this time in the nineteen eighties in New York an exalted drug dealer, really a drug baron. I guess you could call them a drug magnate called Bert Caplan. Bert Kaplan was a degenerate gambler, and he had spent his entire adult life engaged in illegal activities in order to pay off his gambling debts. He couldn't join the mafia he was not of Italian descent. He collaborated with the mafia and in particular, the Lukse crime family in many schemes, schemes of his
own design. Now, Caplan was arrested a number of times. He went to jail a couple of times. In one of his jail stints in Pennsylvania, his best friend, his jailhouse buddy, was a man named Frankie Centaura. Frankie Centaura happened to be the detective Louis Epolito's cousin. When they were set to be released, Santora said to the drug dealer, Bert Caplan, if you have any problem when we get out, if you need any work done, my cousin Louis is
a detective. He's happy to work for you. He'll do anything, and it's very signific It's significant that he said anything. So Bert Caplan was not inclined to work with a detective, was just too dicey. But not long after his release, he in fact did call on Santora and Santora's cousin,
Louis Appolito, to do a little bit of work. Caplan was involved in a scheme to sell stolen treasury bonds, and in this particular case, they had either hired or duped a diamond dealer named Israel Greenwald into selling the stolen treasury bar in London. When Greenwald returned and got off the plane at JFK Airport, the FBI grabbed him in customs and interrogated him. So Bert Kaplan became aware that his associate, Israel Greenwald might be cooperating with the FBI.
So what was his solution to that? His solution was to arrange for Israel Greenwald to be killed, So he contacted his jailhouse friend Frankie Santora, who in turn contacted his cousin, Detective Louis Eppolito. Eppolito and his partner Stephen Kara Kappa abducted Israel Greenwald on his way home one day. They took him to a repair shop in garage on Nostrin Avenue in Brooklyn, and there Israel Greenwald was shot
in a shed and buried. And that was the beginning of Epolito and Kara Kappa's long relationship with the drug dealer Bert Kaplan and by extension, with the mob.
Let's talk and go I guess backwards a bit to internal affairs investigation targeting Louis Epolito. Tell us about this investigation and what happens as a result.
Yeah, it's a critical part of this story. One day, the FBI and the New Jersey State Police raided the home in Cherry Hill, New Jersey of a Sicilian heroin smuggler named Rosario Gambino, part of the Gambino crime family, and they were astonished to find that Gambino in his home had a copy of his own police file. He had in his possession his own police file. Somebody had given it to him. Tests showed that Louis Epilito's fingerprints
were on the pages in the file. So Epilito was caught more or less red hend and they had him dead to rights, and he was brought before Internal Affairs, as you would expect. Then something really unexpected happened. Internal Affairs dismissed the case. Not only did they dismiss the case, but promoted Epildo to detective second grade and they invited him to pick where he would work in within the police department.
Incredible, and he.
Chose the six' three, precinct which is in the heart of mafia land In South. Brookland SO i mean a couple of a couple of important things. There one is why did that? HAPPEN i DON'T i don't have a definitive answer to, that but my best guess is that at this time the police were weary of headlines about. Corruption this came in the wake of THE nap, Commission,
serproco et. CETERA i Think Benjamin, ward the Police, commissioner simply Didn't he didn't have the tolerance for another police, scandal and so they just swept it under the run and hope that it would it would go. Away but this was a critical juncture because this was an opportunity for the police to Catch Louis epoldo and they botched. It of, course he And Stephen Kara kappa were not only got away with, this but they were they were, emboldened and they would go on to do much worse.
Things let's get back To Bert kaplan and the relationship with The Kara kappa And epolito and what that involves in terms of their, duties what they had offered in terms of, information but also information about informants and just progress on ongoing, investigations and even offered to do murders.
Themselves, Right So Bert, caplan the, intermediary had a particular relationship with The lucas the, underboss who was a man named Gas Pipe, caso was the point man for all files and information within major, case and So Kara kappa had his hands on EVERYTHING, fbi DE, EA, nypd and so he plucked out the information that he thought The luksey underboss Gas Pipe cassom might, want who was about to be, arrested whose phones were, tapped and in particular who was a, rat who was an informant who was
secretly making deals with the. Government and what's, more Gas pipe Paid appallito And Kara kappa via kaplan a bonus to facilitate the abduction or killing of those informants.
That jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these. Messages let's talk about as you Do you're write about G Robert, blakey a lawyer and professor on The Senate committee On Criminal laws And procedure and an alcolyte Of Robert. Kennedy let's talk About rico laws and their.
Formation.
YEAH i never thought THAT i would be interested in this kind of this kind of law, discussion BUT i have to say The rico laws were really fascinating to, me AND i hope they will be to. OTHERS i, mean the, old the kind of the. Old the old punchline is is that when when Al capone was arrested and, indicted he was indicted for tax. Evasion and so why was?
That it's because historically the mob bosses were. Untouchable the police and THE fbi could catch the, soldiers the mob, soldiers the little guys because they were the ones who pulled the. Trigger but just as soon as they were pulled, off the streets the mob bosses would replace. Them so this was the dilemma in law enforcement for, decades how to how to get the mob bosses who are not pulling the trigger, Themselves they're telling somebody else to pull the.
Trigger so would what would you indict them? For Ge Robert blakey wrote what is called The Rico. Laws these The rico law treated the criminal organization as as an entity behind these, crimes so that anyone who engaged, in, say a conspiracy to, murder was implicated in the, crime even if they themselves did not pull the. Trigger and this was potentially a game. Changer, Ironically blakey wrote the laws and then nobody used them for a long. Time they sat in the books for a, decade AND i
THINK i think it drove him. Crazy and so he embarked on a tour of the country talking to one prosecutor's office after, another trying to like an, evangelist trying to get them to use The rico, laws and they largely just shrugged him. OFF i think their feeling, was what is, This what does this law professor have to teach?
Us crime has fought on the, streets not you, know not in the in the lecture, halls AND i think some federal prosecutor thought it was Too The rico law was too complicated for a jury to, understand AND i suspect in some cases it was too complicated for the prosecutors themselves to. Understand, then in the mid, Eighties Rudy, giuliani then a federal prosecutor In New, york picked up on The rico laws and used them with great success to bust the top ranks of the crime families In New.
York and this this was really really significant in our, story because the mafia entered into a period of disorganization and. Disarray organized crime became. Disorganized it was a period of. Paranoia a lot of people were. Flipping and so For Gaspi, casso the underboss of The luchesi, family the two corrupt detectives who were willing to help, him they were a kind of a. Lifeline he called them his crystal ball
for obvious. Reasons they could predict what was going to, happen and so in a period where he was trying to, survive the two detectives they were part of his strategy for.
Survival you talk About Paul castelano being. Murdered and so now there's a power. Vacuum so you introduce a, character a very interesting character Named Jimmy. Hidell tell us About Jimmy hidell and his, Girlfriend annette De.
Bassi, Right Jimmy hidell was born into a mob related family In Staten. Island, jimmy Like, kaplan could not could not be inducted into the. Mafia he could not be made a made man because he was Of irish, descent Not italian. Descent but he was a eager part participant and an aspiring. MOBSTER a. Hustler jimmy happened to have a girlfriend Named. Annette they had an on, again off again. Relationship jimmy was jealous to the point of. Violence when they broke. Up A nette would go out with other
men and he. Would at one point he abducted her and tied her up in an. Apartment when she got, away she talked to a grand. Jury the grand jury did not actually Charge. Jimmy but Now jimmy was afraid of what A nette might, say and so he and a friend grabbed a net on her way to work one. Morning they shot her and killed her in a shallow
grave near a dilapidated motel In Staten. Island Jimmy jimmy was eager to do favors for, mobsters to endear himself to climb a rung in the, ladder and when when asked, to he organized an assassination of Gas Pipe, caso the. Underboss they pulled up alongside him in a parking lot of a strip mall in The Mill basin neighborhood Of. Brooklyn they fired on. Him if you fire on Gas Pipe,
cassa you had better kill. Him but they boxed it And Gaspipe casso ran into a. Restaurant he ran downstairs and hid in a kind of a walk in refrigerator down in the, basement and he. Survived so now he would spend the following year's exacting revenge on his would be as, essence and his first task was to Hire
epilido And Kara kappa to Abduct Jimmy. Hidell they would gladly have Killed jimmy or Gas, pipe but Gas pipe Wanted jimmy alive because he wanted to extract as much information From jimmy as he could about this botched, assassination and So epildo And Kara kappa drove out to The hidel family home In Staten. Island they circled the block a couple of. Times heidel's, Mother, betty came outside and confronted. Them they showed their police badges and they drove. Off
later that, day they Found jimmy In. Brooklyn they took him to the same garage Where Israel greenwald had been. Killed they didn't kill. Him they tied him up and put him in the trunk of a car and per gas pipes. Instructions they drove to a parking lot beside A toys R us next to The Belt parkway In, brooklyn and they gave the car With Jimmy hidel in
the trunk To Gaspipe. Casso casso then Took jimmy to a friend's basement and he Shot jimmy more than fifteen, times and he, did in fact extract information from him about who was behind this, shooting who was. Involved at one, Point jimmy, SAID i know you're going to kill. Me my one request is that you dumped my body on the street so that my mother can claim the insurance. Money without the, body you can't claim. Insurance Gaspye casso did not do.
That the.
Body the body has never been, found but that encounter When epleo And Kara kappa drove out to The hydel family house And jimmy's Mother betty confronted, them that was later a critical moment in their.
Investigations Let's jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these. Messages at the same, Time casso gets information From kaplan Via epolito And Kara kappa about the other, assassin a person Named Nicki. Guido there's a problem with, This Nicki. Guido there's two of. Them explain this unfortunate.
Situation, YEAH i, mean AS i mentioned, Earlier Kara kappa was skimming valuable information FROM fbi and police records in The Major case squad and passing and this information along to Gas pipe Via, kaplan but the information was not always. Right Nicki guido was a young man who had been involved in the botched assassination of Gas pipe in The
Strip mall parking. Lot casso was kind of going down the list of people who are involved in trying to kill, him So Kara kappa And ablita passed this information along to Gas. Pipe Gas pipe sends his gunman to Shoot Nicki. Guido On Christmas, day they shoot him outside of his family home In. Brooklyn he dies in his car just outside the family. Home the problem was that it was the Wrong Nicki. Guido it was a case of mistaken, identity Same Nicki, guido but wrong. Person the Real Nicki
guido lived in an adjacent. Neighborhood SO i, mean this is a, case you, know JUST i, mean tragedy Follows tragedy follows this story every step of the, way but none of those tragedies are worse than this. One the, victim the innocent, victim was a young man well liked in the, neighborhood twenty six years, old just about to join the fire. Department his, family can, imagine never never really got over. It his father stopped taking his medications
and died a couple of years. Later you, know we watch These mafia movies And MAFIA tv, shows But i'm not sure we're ever fully aware of how you, know of the tragedy that goes along with these.
Stories you're right, that, meanwhile That rico precipitates sentences like one hundred year, sentences but also induces mobsters to start. Talking and because the caret as you, write can be The Witness Protection.
Program, YEAH i mean THAT'S i mean concurrent with The Rico laws was the foundation the forming of The Witness Protection, program and these two provisions changed. EVERYTHING i guess WHAT i would say is that for many of the mafia, members they didn't necessarily choose this. LIFE i, mean, yes of course they knew what they were, doing but they were kind of born into this. World and for some of, them it probably seemed like it was the only game in. Town and then once they were in, it there was
no way to get out of. It there was no way to get out of. It but now with The Rico, laws The Rico laws induced people to lip because the sentences were so, severe as you, mentioned but they also it, dangled The feds would dangle this possibility of starting, over starting a new life under a new, name and a
new job and a new home somewhere somewhere far. Away and the combination of The Rico laws and The Witness Protection program caused a great number of these of these wise guys to cooperate with the.
Government you taught you write about that after a person Named Dominic costa is, shot police realize or certain detectives realized that there must be a mole in The New York Police.
Department, YEAH i mean it's sort of slowly dawned on individuals in law enforcement across the agencies that that there was a suspicious pattern by which by which the mobsters were anticipating what what was what was going to. HAPPEN i mean part part of what happened there was that the high ranking detectives often worked, autonomously by WHICH i
mean they worked on their. Own they didn't share information with, anybody and so there was there were a scattering of EIGHT fbi agents and NYP d detectives who began to see that that that sharing, information particularly sharing information With Kara, kappa could have, consequences and so some of them went to went to some lengths to uh to not share
share their information with the with the normal. Channels they went outside the normal channels because they had become suspicious Of Kara kappa and for good.
Reason what was some of the information that was eventually garnered from informants that law enforcement eventually pieced together in this progressive. Investigation, Well i'll mention one.
Example THE dea at that time was investigating some pot, dealers some marijuana dealers In Staten, island and these were mob connected pot. DEALERS i, mean these were really really big time drug dealers and they were bringing pot in from across the, country From, mexico From canada and bringing it To Staten island and selling it to. Distributors and a A dea agent Named Frank drew was coordinating their.
Surveillance And Frank drew was among those who came to be came to be suspicious about the mob having fore knowledge of. Events for, example they seemed to know when their phones were being, tapped and when they were, arrested they seemed to know that they were going to be. Arrested they, said we knew you were. Coming they hid the, money they hid incriminating. Evidence and when some of these pot dealers were arrested and they began to, talk some
of them. Flipped they said To Frank drew and others in THE, dea you have no, Idea you have no idea about the crystal, ball you have no idea where we're getting this. Information and that was now they were the pot dealers were working closely With Bert kaplan and so this was from THE dea. Side was this was the beginning of the suspicion that something more than they
expected was going. On they had thought they were just simply bringing down a drug drug, traffickers but they began to understand that there was a lot more to the story than.
That you say That drew had asked exactly how they had found, out how they the police or pardon, me how they had known about information?
Beforehand, RIGHT i, Mean Frank drew asked them how did they know in this sort of messy period after they the drug dealers were, Busted and in, particular there was a drug dealer who was imprisoned In tennessee and, flipped and he began to tell them about the crystal ball and about this connection With kaplan And kaplan's connection with these with these, detectives and this was happening happening concurrently with detectives in THE nypd coming to the same. Conclusion
but law enforcement doesn't always share information across. AGENCIES i, mean there was a kind of a funny episode Where Drew, Kaplan Frank drew intended to use an abandoned building across From Frank DREW'S i, mean From Burt caplain's warehouse to surveil him and found, that in, fact THE nypd was already using that building to Surveil. Caplin so you have the case of a couple of agency law enforcement. Agencies we were kind of zeroing in On caplan And uppolly
In Kara. Kappa but the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is. Doing you're.
Right interestingly That eppolito retires FROM nypd in nineteen ninety and then wants to have another, career and he Chose hollywood as his future. Career tell us what he does in that, endeavor.
Right epolito, retires collects his generous police. Pension thinking that he has gotten away with all of, this he moves to a subdivision in the outskirts Of Las. Vegas his best Friend stephen and Partner. Stephen Kara kappa follows a couple of years, later and oddly enough lives across the
street From. Epolita why does he live across the, Street, well he never said, it But i'm pretty sure the reason is That, kara the circumspect silent, detective was worried about whether his, friend the loud Mouthed Louis, eppolito would do something, unwise whether he would give them away in some. Way it was just In epilito's nature to boast and grab, attention hence his aspirations to be A hollywood, actor to write, screenplays to direct. Movies in, fact he was in a
dozen or so. Movies most, notably he had a cameo in the Movie. Goodfellas he played a character Called Fat. Andy and Then epolito does something really. Stupid he writes a memoir about his life as a detective who was born into a mafia. Family of, course he doesn't reveal the crimes that he, committed but he does reveal a lot of. Things When Kara kappa finds out about, this he is. Furious this is exactly what he Feared louis would. Do in the, book there's a photo of the two of,
them and the, caption of, course names, them identifies. Them Kara kappa's fear was that anybody who had seen them in action in the course of their duties on behalf of The luchese crime family could now identify them by. Name and that's exactly what.
Happened let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear these. Messages now tell us how it comes that agents get information and the case is. Revived you, say how is it that The epolito And Kara, kappa despite all of these prosecutions and people actually naming, them that they evade, Prosecution and then you write about the case revived in the late nineties by someone Named Tommy.
Dates.
Right, so So, epilido as we just, Said Louis epilido wrote his, memoir wrote his book and his photo And Stephen Carra kappa's photos are in the book and they're named. Now Betty, hidell the mother Of Jimmy, hideal the young man Who Epily doo And Kara kappa. Abducted betty had Confronted epolydo And Carra kappa outside of the family home on the day that they were looking For Jimmy, hideal her, son and they found her son that day and he
was never seen. Again so when the book comes, Out epildo was on the talk Show The Sally Jesse Raphael show promoting the book And betty has THE tv on in the family home and she Sees epildo and she recognizes him and she thinks that's one of the two men who abducted my, Son. Jimmy she goes out and buys the, book and sure, enough there they are in the, Book epallito And Kara, kappa and now she knows their.
Names So betty comes from a mafia. Family she doesn't trust a lot of law, enforcement but she does trust a detective Named Tommy. Dades Tommy days was a detective who had investigated the murder of her other, Son, frankie who was shot to death in the parking lot of A Staten Island strip. Mall And tommy isn't just an
Amazing he's an amazing, man an amazing. Detective and he was raised by a single mother In, brooklyn very tough, Neighborhood Sunset park back then and throughout his, Career tommy had he cultivated a special relationship with the, mothers the mothers of the, perpetrators the mothers of the, victims and he had a special relationship With, betty and she trusted, him and so she called him and told him what
she had. Discovered that the two detectives who had come looking for her, Son, jimmy were Named Louis eppoline And Stephen Kara. Kappa Tommy dages took this information to The Brooklyn DIA's, office they gave him the green light to
conduct an. Investigation his investigation met with some resistance the, police particularly the older, cops did not like the idea of a cop investigating, cops but he persevered and one of the things he did was to call A dea agent In Las vegas Named Timmy, moran And Timmy moran began to Surveil epilido And Kara kappa and he sent an accountant undercover wired up to a series of meetings With epilido And Kara, kappa.
And he.
He acted as if he were going to help raise money For epolito's film. PROJECTS i, mean it was entirely, fictitious but that was his. Ploy and at one of these meals he, said, oh the, backers the investors in your film are coming To Las. Vegas they would like to have some party. Drugs And epolita, said, oh my
son can help with. That and that was a critical moment because The rico law requires law comes with a statute of, limitations which was about to, expire but the sale of meth to this undercover accountant reset the clock on the statute of limitations and allowed for the indictment Of epilino In Kara.
Kappa you're right that if they were to have prosecuted in state court, though that that statute of limitations wouldn't. Apply is that?
True, Yeah this this became a point of real contention in the politics of law enforcement Within New York, city to the point where people are still angry about, this and, UNDERSTANDABLY i think The Brooklyn Die's office really revived this case Against epilto And Karra kappa after THE feds had abandoned it the bed just to back, up the fed's had a case against had a case against Epilete On Kara, kappa but they really walked away from. It it happened this.
Way Epilet On Carra kappa's patron in The lukeesy crime, family the, Underboss Gaspipe, casso. Flipped after a lifetime of killing, informants he became the biggest informant of all and, he in a series of, debriefings described the thirty six murders he'd been involved. In but he also dropped a. Bombshell he had Two New York city detectives on his. Payroll. Unbelievable so now THE feds had an insider who could
testify Against Epolete On Kara. Kappa but then Gas pipe started to bad mouth the other the other marquee, witnesses most Notably sammy the Bol, gravano who had been critical to the prosecution Of John. Gotti, right and THE feds were in a low grade panic over this because they had tried several times to Convict gotti and they finally, did and if Gas pipes started to tear down their marquee witness the whole thing could be. Undone so their solution was just simply to rip up Gas Pype casso's
plea agreement and send them To supermax. Prison the beneficiary of, this of course was Epilet On Kara, kappa because now there was no longer an insider to testify against. Them so fast forward a couple of years And Timmy, moran THE dea, agent is making these recordings of Epilete On Kara kappa and the drug, sale and, that as we, said that resets The rico The rico, clock and so epitly Known Kara kappa could now be indicted Under rico.
Law you say that they can't Use casso as a witness at, all so they say they need somebody on the, inside and who do they choose as that.
Person they choose the most unlikely person of, all even more unlikely than guessed By, casso and that Was Bert, kaplan the drug. Dealer and the REASON i say unlikely is that even Though Bert kaplan could not join the, mafia he was Of Jewish he Was, Jewish he was
stricter about the rules of the mafia than anyone. Else and he swore over and over and over again to law enforcement that he would never share, information he would never, flip he would never be a. Rat but in fact he did become a. Rat and he became a. RAT i think we can see for two. Reasons one is he was confronted in jail with the death Of Nikki, guido the, innocent the innocent man who was. Shot and, secondarily he knew that if he didn't, Flip eppolito And
Kara kappa might flip and testify against. Him his daughter had just adopted a, son and he knew that if he was to hold his grandson helped to raise his, grandson he would have to stay out of.
Prison you also talk about his, Daughter deborah and her aspiring career at that same.
Time, interestingly, yeah, Ironically Bert, kaplan the drug, dealer the architect of god knows how many illegal financial schemes that he worked on with the.
Mafia his daughter went to law school and became a eventually became a. Judge today she's a judge of The New York city judicial.
System let's get to this eventual. Prosecution this Is mike vishone at THE Us state attorney or pardon, me the prosecutor in this tell us about this prosecution and, again fascinatingly the defense For Kara kappa and For Louis. Epalido.
Yeah, so as we, Mentioned Tommy dage developed this case in The brooklyn DA's office with the intention That Mike vicki oonne A brooklyn and Accomplished BROOKLYN da would prosecute the. Case and they began to collaborate with federal authorities on this, case partially Because Bert kaplan was a federal, prisoner and
so they need to. Cooperate the two the state prosecutors and the federal prosecutors need to cooperate because they are sharing they're sharing, evidence and they're sharing a. Witness but, eventually the federal, prosecutors who had abandoned this case years, earlier took it, over and they made they made the argument that rather than split this into a murder case tried by state attorneys and a rico case tried by federal, attorneys it should really all be bundled into one case
tried by the federal. Attorneys and THIS i Mean Mike. Vickione The BROOKLYN da begrudgingly went along with, that agreed with, that but it was beyond. FRUSTRATING i think To Tommy, Dads Mike, vickione and others in The brooklyn DA's office that they revived this case and then had it had it taken away from. Them epolito And Kara kappa hired two celebrity defense, Lawyers Bruce cutler And Ed, hayes to defend.
Them Bruce cutler had famously Defended John. GOTTIE i don't know why if you were claiming to be innocent you would hire a lawyer who was only ever associated with
mom trials that. Did they were just sort of give away the ending year they were, convicted and then the, judge and a really revered judge Named Jack, weinstein threw the conviction out on a. Technicality he didn't buy the drug sale as being part of the, rico and so he said that he felt that the statute of limitations had, expired and so once again And Kara kappa appeared to have gotten away with, this but the appeals or reinstated the.
Conviction you're right that judge had a strategy with not dismissing this case earlier on enabling the prosecution to have a second. Chance can you explain that? Strategy, YEAH i Mean.
Judge weinstein never said this, explicitly but people involved in the trial and courtroom observers believe that that he waited until after the trial to rule on this issue of statute, limitations which allowed the higher court to reinstate the. Conviction and their feeling is he could easily have made that.
Ruling Judge weinstein could easily have made that ruling at the beginning of the, trial and in that case there would have been no. Recourse but the thought is that he deliberately waited until the end so that so that in, fact the appeals court could could assure that justice would be.
Done you, Right this is dramatic testimonials at the sentencing the first, time and then three years, later family certain family members victims' family members rose to say they're parting Piece Eddie lino's, Son Israel greenwald's, daughter And Barry gibbs interestingly as.
Well, YEAH i MEAN i felt like in this book and in my previous, BOOKS i feel like the trials are are really trying to think of how to put. It useful isn't exactly the right. Word they're they're important to the storytelling because this is this is an involved story with a lot of characters and a lot of.
Threads and here at the, trial all the different people characters come together and the family members of both the perpetrators and the victims sitting next to each other in excruciatingly awkward, proximity and one by one the characters in the story take the stand and tell their version of
the truth, anyway and it all comes. OUT i, mean it's like a. Movie all of a, sudden the, story you, know many of the issues and the mysteries are, resolved and there's a sort of catharsis, because as you, mentioned the victims before the, sentencing the victims' families and In Barry gibbs's, case the victim are allowed to have their
say and it's very. Emotional Barry gibbs was postal worker who had been framed In brooklyn By epolido for the murder of a prostitute found lying in the grass beside The Belt parkway along the southern border Of, brooklyn and he went to jail for almost two. Decades but With epolito's arrest came information leading To Barry gibbs's.
Release he has very interesting and dramatic scene in this book Where epallito is confronted as right in the gallery By Barry, gibbs and he, says do you know WHO i? Am and That pallido said, no and then he told them who he was an what prison would be like for.
Him.
Yeah it really is like a scene in a, movie isn't. IT i, mean their roles are reversed in a. Way epilido Is epilido has just been released from. Prison i'm, Sorry Barry gibbs has just been released from. Prison epilido is about to go into. Prison and after the agony OF i believe it was nineteen years in, JAIL i would have to chest That Barry gibbs is a free is a free man and confronts confronts the man who who put him in.
Prison you have an interesting end of the book where you talk about the dedicated detectives and investigators for the district attorney and also prosecutors and how they still communicate with each other and talk about remarkably unsolved cases and this case as.
WELL i, MEAN i came to understand in reporting this book that the best of these, detectives just the their level of dedication is, just you, know just so. Praiseworthy And Tommy, Days Frank, drew these men hated to retire with cold cases out, there and so even in retirement they formed almost like a little club that would that would try to solve cold. Cases and they worked they worked with a a since retired police official who was
responsible for solving cold. Cases and it was as if it was like a it was like a rock band getting back. Together you. Know they kind of couldn't. Resist
they kind of couldn't resist doing. It there are still there are still mysteries About epolito And Kara kappa and how many people they they might be implicated in killing in one, way Or anne And Tommy dads And Frank drew and another detective Named Phil, grimaldi where they were trying to piece these these mysteries together and figure provide a little more.
Information you're right at the end that you want to give special thanks again To, Tommy dads And Frank, drew who you say pulled back the curtain on a dark world you couldn't otherwise know about and helped you understand it's strange doings at least a.
LITTLE i could have written a book about this. CASE i would have written a book about this. Case it wouldn't have been this book except that these men were willing to talk about it and talk about it for The you, Know tommy had talked about this, case but really he allowed me to speak to other, people Including Frank, drew but more than a dozen others who had never talked about their roles in this. Story and When tommy vouched for, me it opened doors for. Me AND i
mean it was an extraordinary experience for. Me these detectives who AN fbi, agents who had never talked about their careers at, all not even really in some cases with their wives or their. Families now they're, retired a little time has, passed as we had, said and in some cases it was really kind of. EMOTIONAL i mean it WAS i think that these are unbelievably dedicated public servants who have post traumatic stress, disorder probably many times over
and talking about. IT i, mean at least one of them used the word therapy with me when they talk about.
IT i want to thank you so, Much Michael canell for coming on and talking about your very your extraordinary blood and the, badge The, mafia two Killer, cops and the, scandal the shock. Donation for those that might want to find out more about this, book can you refer them to a? Website and do you do any social?
Media?
YEAH i have A i, mean this book is available through all the normal, channels BUT i. DO i do have a. Website It's michaelcannel dot. Com canel is spelled C a n n e L, l and there's a byelink there for this. Book i'm on all the social. Media i'm On instagram As Michael Underscore, canal that's probably the one THAT i use the. Most But i'm on x Or twitter as At Michael, Kanal so please be in.
Touch thank you so much for this, Interview Michael, kanel and good.
Night thank, You, dan thank you