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Good evening, This is your host for the program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, with your host Dan Sepansky Ford. For Darlene Roberts, a quiet drive home from work turned out to be the end of the road when a stranded motorist flagged her down. As soon as she stopped, Darling was forcibly dragged from her car and viciously thrown to the ground, bound with cords and tightly gagged.
A second attacker stepped into the scene, a woman in a hood and a mask. In the ensuing struggle, the woman's mouth slipped off, revealing the face of Darling's husband, Darling's Husband's ex wife, Barbara Ann Roberts. Darling broke away from her broke away, running for her life. The couple pursued her across the field until they found her hiding in the grass, a shotgun was aimed in fired point blank. Later,
Darling was found floating in a pond. Who fired the fatal shot the bitter ex wife or her lover, an accompliced millionaire neurosurgeon, doctor Robert Schiss, the third only one of them be convicted in this disturbing, twisted tale of lovers, cheaters, and killers in a small Alivama town. The book is Blood Ambush with my special guest Sheila Johnson. Thank you very much for Greening's interview and welcome back to the program.
Sheila Johnson very much, well, thank you. Now, first off, how did you come to be involved in writing a book about this murder case in particular? And why did you want to write about this case in particular?
Well, the case happened in the county where I live, and at the time I was looking at another book and I was pretty much settled doing that one. But then this thing started to unfold and it just kept getting more and more twisted and intertwined, and so many things didn't add up, and it just it got to be in a situation where I had to write this book, you know, I had to.
Now, first off, who was Darlene Roberts. So if you give us a little bit about her character and we're and also the setting of this is in Cherokee County, Alabama, So give us a little bit of a sort of a geographical idea of where this is in relation to say other nearby bigger cities and neighboring states and Alabama itself.
Well, we're about the same distance here in Cherokee County from Atlanta as we are from Birmingham, or as we are from Chattanooga, Tennessee. We're sort of in a triangle here. And this is a very rural area, but strangely enough, it's also a resort area because there's a there's a huge lake here, and there's all mannered recreation and boating, fishing, camping, water sports. There's you know, very big in this part
of the Southeast. So it makes for a sort of a strange mix having some old time farm communities and then this resort that's come up since the TBA built a damn and created this huge lake, and it's there are a lot of what we could call unsolved mysteries in this area that I was speaking to someone today about how many other cases there are here that have just had been equally bizarre but have never been solved, so that may be all manner of books lurking around
here in the future. And Darlene you wanted to know about Darlene Ross, Okay, Darlene was extremely well liked. She was a really attractive lady. And she worked at a big paper mill over in Rome, Georgia, which is just across the county line in the state line here from this county. And while she was working there, she met this really handsome fellow that you could only refer to as a lady's man. His name was Vernon Roberts, and
he was in the process of divorcing his wife. They had been talking back and forth about separating and divorcing for some time, and Darlene fell hard for this guy, and they were married after Vernon got his divorce from Barbara Anne Roberts, his ex wife, and they were evidently
quite happy. And Darlene was on her way home from work one night and next thing, you know, like you were saying, she was pulled over, dragged out of the car, and she had no clue why what was going on until she recognized Barbara and poor Darlene, you know, a lot of people were it fought here, but she was certainly not one of them. She was, you know, totally innocent victim.
Well, let's go back a little bit here to Barbara and Roberts. The obviously we talked to her and she's the perpetrator here, but let's talk about Barbara and Roberts and the kind of relationship she had with Vernon Roberts before Darlene came into the picture. What was that situation, like, how did Barbara and Roberts meet Vernon? Tell us a little bit about that and the split tell us give us a little bit of that backgrap.
Well, okay, Barbara and Vernon met in Texas, which is where they were both from originally, and Vernon had just divorced his first wife and he was stuck without a vehicle or place to live, no money, couldn't pay his child support. And Barbara kind of stepped in and befriended him, and she fell hard for him, just like evidently so
many others have. And then they were married, and they were married for quite a few years, and I think things were okay at first, and then they started sort of on a downhill slide when Barbara started becoming more depressed and neurotic than you know, she had ever been previously. She had been having trouble since her young adulthood was depression,
and it is it got worse. The situation with Vernon got worse, and when he got transferred over to the Rome Georgia plant where he was working, when he met Darlene, then from that point on they went downhill fast. Barbara's middle condition deteriorated quite a bit, and Vernon was increasingly dissatisfied. And I think the majority of it hinged on her depression worsening like it did, and she sought quite a bit of help for it at the time.
So was there, like it happens in a lot of times, was there an obvious overlap where his wife was depressed and created tension in the relationship and then his transfer to Rome Georgia and meeting Darlene, there was there a big overlap of it, didn't just you know, was there an overlap in a couple of years where there was a relationship developing with Darlene or his disatisfaction with Barbara, and tell us about that overlap that usually happens in relationships, And if.
There was one thing I think there was some overlap here in this one, not as much as there might possibly have been. But I believe that he did begin seeing Darlene a little prematurely, she'll we say, and I think that contributed to Barbara's worse than meddle condition, also because she could sense something coming on. But I don't think there was a as nearly as large an overlap as there is in many cases like that.
Now you talked about that she was diagnosed with clinical depression, was that the only psychiatric psychological evaluation that she had in designation that she had was just depression. You said that happened in her early years, but during her relationship with Vernon. She's an adult, so it was not the only diagnosis that she did have.
Officially, well, she had quite a few different problems. I think they all stem from the depression primarily. But she for some reason her self esteem was not as high as it should have been, and I think that was rooted in a lot of the depression, and it was the cause of a lot of it. And she was lonely when she moved here. She was away from her family and from other people that she knew, and she didn't really have any friends, and that contributed to things.
And by the time she started checking herself into clinics and psychiatric facilities, what she did, many times, her diagnosis would just jump all over the place, depending on what page of the book she was on that day. You know, she sometimes would present with just almost suicidal depression, and other times Vernon would report to him that he was afraid for his safety and things of that nature. Of course, I think part of that was just to perhaps cause
her more problems than she was already having. And it was real varying situation from one incident to the next. On one occasion, she checked herself in to the clinic because Vernon had insisted that she have her real elderly dog put down, and he said that he was going on a business trip and it better be gone by the time he got home. And she was so upset by that that her doctor went with her to the vets office to have the dog put to sleep, and then went with her to check herself in. So it
was it was a sad situation. I think she was manipulated and and probably things were a lot worse for than they would have been otherwise.
What was her early life like growing up? Uh uh? In your research, W, what were her parents like we did?
Did?
Did she lead a a somewhat normal life? W tell us a little bit about that life.
She lived a very normal life. She was the middle child of I think about seven and they had a very good, solid upbringing, good parents. The parents bagged education and just went to great links to make sure that all their children did the best they possibly could. They were a very religious family, and she did lots of things growing up with their her brothers and sisters, and
they were fairly close. And she couldn't have had a more normal ideal utbring no trauma that I ever could find anywhere, but you know, nothing of that sort that normally causes things of this sort to get worse. But I don't think she could have really had a nicer family. They're taking this really hard, you know, by the way. The whole thing is really disturbing to them.
Sure, Now, when did she get the I don't want to jump ahead, but just just so I kind of know here and our audience knows, is when did she get the more serious bipolar designation by the doctors, which was previously known as schizophrenic. So when did she when was she diagnosed with this bipolar disease.
That started happening. Well, like I was telling you, around the time that she started checking herself into the clinics while she and Vernon were talking about divorce or separation. She began kind of creeping over in that direction at that time, and she began to get worse as time passed. She would sort of stalk Darlene, and then when she and Vernon started dating, she'd go sneaking up to the
house disguised in the dark and spy on them. And I think she put a smoke bomb in the furnace vand at Darlene's apartment on one occasion, and just things of that nature. She started doing all these things too. I don't know if she was trying to irritate them or if she just was trying to feed some need that she had to find out what they were up to.
In your research, did you find that she wanted Vernon back in her life or she wanted to be back in Vernon's life? And how did she view Darlene in terms of being the source of the problem in the first place, did she who did she direct her anger towards? More so Vernon or Darlene.
Well, I think she wanted Vernon back. She never has just directly come out and told me so, because of some of the things he did, you know, following the murder. But I think before that incident she would have taken him back in a heartbeat. However, by that time, she already had a very wealthy, well to do boyfriend and
had had for a while in the doctor. And I don't think she blamed Darlene for their breakup because it started so much, you know, it was previous to Darlene coming on the scene, and I don't think she blamed her for that, but she was somewhat jealous, and I think there was a lot of rivalry and then just finally there was some outright anger when all these pranks started taking place on her art and Darlene's both.
Well, you mentioned you've alluded about to the doctor, doctor Robert, and am I pronouncing this wrong? Let me know it's it's it's Schiss.
Well, actually it's She's, She's, She's. He was very adamant when he was in jail up here with all the law enforcement people about how his name was supposed to be pronounced, and he would correct everybody in a heartbeat, because evidently schiss in one of the Germanic languages is I think it's a word for human excrement.
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Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah, okay, So now who is who is this doctor Robert Sheh and what was their relationship characterized by? And I just wanted to know too that to let the audience know when we're describing these people, tell us really what the you know, if there's an age difference between this doctor Robert Sheesh and Barbara Ann and then Darlene and then Vernon, and then what is the dynamic in terms of looks? I think all people are always interested in that. What does Darlene look like?
What's the age difference between her and Barbara? What does Barbara look like? And what's the age difference between her and doctor Robert Sheesh and give us a little bit of that picture.
Okay, Darlene is very attractive person. She was a really attractive lady. She had, you know, nice small build, and she was blond and Vernon was brown eyed, handsome man, you know, tall, dark and handsome. They were very attractive couple. And the age difference there, Darlene was a little bit younger than Vernon. Now Barbara was about the same age as Vernon, and Barbara is a Barbara is literally a chameleon. There are pictures in the book that will show that
pretty well. The cover shot is one of her. It was her mugshot when she was arrested. But and she looked pretty plain and haggard and worn in that and a little bit on the stocky side when she was arrested.
But I have had passport photos over and some just really glamour shot pictures over from previous years, and she can just look astounding when you know, certain times her family has told me that they never knew when she'd come home to visit what she was going to look like when she got there, because she would change, you know,
so much from one time to the next. The last time I saw her in person, she was thin and frail and looked like she was having some hair loss or her hair was getting brittle, which, by the way, I've come to notice happens a lot of the time when people are incarcerated, both men and women. I've had that happen to two of my people in my books so far. And the doctor is maybe a couple of
years older than Barbara, but not much. And he's tall, big built, her curly gray hair, and he's a brilliant man and it shows on his face.
Okay, Now, what where did they Where did Barbara add and the good doctor meet under what's circle status? And then how did they proceed from there?
Well? After the divorce, Barbara was working in some of the hospitals and clinics. She was trained radiologist, and she did mimography and several other things. She's a brilliant person too, as far as that goes. And she had been well educated, and she was working in some of the hospitals and clinics where the doctor also worked. And they met on the internet, and then they got together after they met
a very short time. I think it was a place called kiss dot com where they struck up an acquaintance and then after they met, they started getting together and Barbara I did had they had a serious automobile accident after they had been together a short time, and that changed the dynamic of everything for both of them because prior to that, the doctor had been a practicing neurosurgeon who was one of the best anywhere, who was regarded as one of the top men in the country really,
and once they had this automobile accident, he could not practice medicine anymore except just on a consulting basis, because he had tremors, and you don't want a guy with tremors operating, you know, on your brain. And Barbara also suffered enough injuries that she qualified for disability from that point. She was injured and could not use her arms as well that she had nerve damage in her arms, which brings the whole situation around to could she or could
she not hold up a shotgun and fire it. That's one of the key points in the whole case right there, right And I personally don't believe that she did it. I have never believed she was guilty of firing those three fatal point blank shots, and I don't think I ever will believe it.
Okay, let's just go back just a bit here, because you see, you you talk about extensively in the book about really the effects the trauma on both of them. Uh Am, I am I correct in thinking that Barbara Ann also was traumatized by the injury itself as well by the numerous injuries, and then her conditions, uh psychologically
were greatly exasperated, as acerbated, I should say. And so give us the damage that that seemed to be psychological after this, and and also what happened psychologically to the doctor because he now couldn't he couldn't be the surgeon that he was, and he had these other injuries. So tell us a little bit about that follow up to that car crash.
Well, the doctor was devastated because he was no longer able to practice, and I think that had an extremely depressing effect on him. And I think he had some anger problems already, which that just naturally made that much worse. And both of them I think got a little too free with their pain prescriptions. And he of course could write prescriptions for her, and wrote quite a few for her for all manner of different things. And she was
depressed because she couldn't work anymore. And they were both in a lot of pain for several months because of the nerve damage. Barbara had some neck problems, the doctor had I think a broken eye socket, and they both
had leg damage and Barbara had eternal injuries. It was a long term recovery from that accident, and in that time they both pretty much lost everything that they enjoyed doing, and they were left with not a whole lot to do but take pills and think the doctor drank quite a bit too, and that made both of their emotional conditions a lot worse I think than they would have been had the accident not happened. The murder probably would never have happened either.
Right now, where does this two thousand and four memorial do weekend? This bizarre incident with police. Tell us a little bit about that and where that fits into this.
Well, they were on their way, I think they were headed back home from a trip to Atlanta, and they were stopped on the highway, and I think they were
stopped to change drivers. They never would say exactly why they stopped, but an off Deedy Highway patrolman drove by and saw the doctor grabbing Barbara by the like the back waistband of the pants and shake it her, and he thought something might be going on, so he stopped to check them out, and they were both drinking, they were both taking pills, and they both just went wild.
Barbara was all flipped out, and the doctor got furious and started screaming and threatening the patrolman and demanding to see his badge number and demanding that he called the police. And he tried to explain to him that he was a police and the doctor was having none of that, and they had to physically restrain both of them, separate them, and the doctor kept trying to cause problems, and it just it turned into a really big situation where they both got arrested and both went to jail.
And then how long after that do we have that faithful day? And I want you to describe an outline, well outline that faithful day previous to the incident that we talked about before, and then go back into describing exactly because as the detail of what really happens that night is incredible and very important later to the trials,
it's very strange turn of events. So please do that for us outline that faithful day, but also tell us how long is it after this bizarre incident with police that we're now set with this very very bizarre murder event.
It was a year or two at least, because they had a lot of time to steal about this. And in the meantime, Barbara started having an affair with Vernon, the ex husband. Uh, yes, she would. She would call in many times a week. He would call her telling her that he loved her and all sorts of things like that, just all sweet and friendly and nice. And I think that he was stoking his ego, just just showing himself that he could get her any time he
wanted to. And so that started. That went on for about three months, and then the doctor found out about it when Barbara felt bad and confess to him that she had been coming over and sleeping with Vernon.
Oh yeah.
Then the doctor got mad and he decided that the thing for him to do would be to do something to Darlene, like scare or assault her in some way to get back at Vernon. So that's when the plan
started to come over here and kidnapp whatever. I don't think they actually planned all the way up through to a murder until it got out of hand, and it happened, But they stole some highway road signs, road blocked, you know, detour of things like that over in Georgia, brought him over here into Alabama and blocked the road that Darlene was going to be coming home on, just in case
she tried to take another route. They wanted to be sure that she stayed on the route that they were familiar with, on the dirt road that led up to their house. Then they stopped. They came equipped with all manner of things to tie her up with and stuff to disguise Barbara so that Darlene wouldn't know who she was. They came over and proceeded to stop on the side of the road and raised the hood on the truck,
and Darlene stopped to see if she could help. All she could see was the doctor Bob, and she didn't know him, so she stopped to see if she could help. And that's when he yanked her out of the car. And Barbara got out and she saw what was going on, and Darlene did and knew what kind of trouble she
was in. Now Darling was able to break free from them, and well, he didn't have her tied tightly as he thought he did, because he was drinking at the time this happened, and extremely you know, hyped up, and he didn't have her tied all that well. So she managed to get free from him and started running down through the pasture around the fence. And they were just happened at a pasture of the farm pond by the way
out in the way out in the country. And she ran around the outside edge of the pasture, inside the fence, but you know, trying to get away from around the outside, and then she ran down towards the little farm pond that was down in a little depressed area in the center, and Barbara was chasing her. According to the statement that she gave the police, she was running after her, and she claimed that Bob jumped in Darlene's vehicle and drove down and picked Barbara up, and then they went on
down in the vehicle to the pond. And at that point that's that's where the shooting supposedly took place to I think that Barbara had probably fired a couple of shots from the shotgun at a distance before she started chasing Darlene. But I don't believe she could have hit her for anything. There may have been a little scattered buck shot, but that's not where the fatal shooting took place. And when they got to the pond, Barbara was all upset.
After the shots were fired that killed Darlene was she was hiding the pond and they shot her and her body was floating in the pond. And Barbara's glasses got broken. Now, the prosecutors always claimed that the glasses were broken when the shotgun backfired, not backfired, but you know, the recoil
from it hit her in the face. I think that it went the way Barbera said, and the glasses were broken when the doctor who was holding the shotgun after I believe he used it himself and did the final shots, he turned around and hit her in the face with the gun stock and broke her glasses. And then they loaded up in the truck. They went off and left the vehicle of Darlens sitting down there in the pasture, sort of hidden in behind some little bushes, and they
went back to the truck and took off. Well, they were seen. Their truck was seen there by any number of local people who always noticed a strange vehicle in the area. They had people that were passing by that stopped and looked, and after they had left their and
saw Darlen's car sitting down there and reported that. And in the meantime, some other people on up the road were seeing Doc and Barbara stopped on the side of the road fighting and saw him pick her up and throw her back into the truck and take off again. So this this thing just got wilder? Is it progressed?
Well, let's go back to this murder scene here, because to me it doesn't make any sense really, or it makes little sense. First, they now, where do you get this? Where where did you get the factual part that you said that they had planned this kidnapping With.
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Was there? Where did that evidence come from? That they come from Barbara and herself? Because or did he come from the doctor?
Well, that's the thing about how things turned out the way they did. For Barbara. The doctor he never once made one single statement of any kind to anybody. He never said a word. And poor Barbara, on the other hand, just made statements. Every time she'd get anybody that would listen to her. She told everything. And she said that they had planned to come over, and she thought all they were going to do was scared Darlene. But they
had planned the route. There was a map that was marked with the route that was found in the doctor's apartment. They found the packaging from his shotgun. They found receipts from a gun club where he taken lessons on how to use it, fire it. They just found all manner of evidence that the thing was premeditated. They found the same materials that they had taken along to tie her up with. They had more of that in the apartment, the green plastic film and some cotton gauze, and a
lot of that was found. Barbara's story to people was that she had had a skating accident trying to learn how to inline skate, and they had gone to the sporting goods store and bought two pairs of inline skates that were still in their box and never had been used. And there was just all kinds of evidence. When they got into the apartment, they found more than enough.
Now there is a certain dynamic here as well that this doctor Robert, he's got a lot of money and there was just a part of the story is that there was and I want you to explain how this happens because this is sort of unusual too. Person and accused of murder. Two people accused the murder out on bail, but then their veil their bail was revoked. You know, why would that be? And you can tell us why. You know, it is quite unusual why that bail was revoked.
But then how Barbara Ann thought she might have some money for decent representation and then she had no money whatsoever. And and in your estimation, does this make this quite a bit of a different story with the ability of him being able to afford a really really good lawyer and all of a sudden, she's indigen and can't afford any lawyer.
Really, there there's reasons for all that. There certainly is. They were charged, but they didn't indict them until the grand jury met, you know, several months after the event. So they were released on very high bond, which he
was able to pay for both of them. He covered both their bond, and then, against all their lawyer's advice, they went back to together and continued living together until the grand jury over here indicted both of them and they were both rearrested, but their bond was revoked and that they were rearrested, and Barbara never really had any resources
of her own. The doctor was, you know, pretty much paying her way for everything, sure, and I feel that she probably had been promised a lot if she would not testify and keep her mouth shut, and she just, you know, she didn't testify, but she sure didn't keep her mouth shut either, because she just gave statement after statement, and each one would be just a little more incriminating
than the last one. And she provided enough information that I think the doctor's family pulled the plug on her resources. And then she had to She had hired an attorney originally over in Georgia, and he had got a helper lie up here. The attorney that she ended up with here in Cherokee County was going to originally help this man, and then he dropped out of the situation when it
became a capital murder case. He didn't feel that he was qualified to handle one in Alabama, and so she fired him and just kept the one that she had here in this county.
But it makes a lot of sense too. If he was paying for her representation and he had he were to give her the same not the same lawyer, but if they were not the share lawyers, but give her a really good lawyer, that lawyer's logical thing to do is to put the blame on him, so he would be essentially financing and not in his best interest. A lawyer would would be hurting him. So yeah, that makes
a lot of sense. And whatever agreement they had, she did open her mouth, so he did the smart thing by keeping his mouth shut.
Well, that was really the only thing he could have done, and by doing that he essentially got himself out of jail in about three years for that because he ended up at first he was going to cop the insanity plea, which has never really been that successful in this state. And then his lawyer persuaded him to take a deal,
and he got offered the deal of a lifetime. He got charged with kidnapping and pled guilty to that, and I think he ended up serving about three years counting his time served waiting for the trial that didn't happen.
Why could you said, there was a truckload of evidence that, you know, a lot of it's circumstantial, but certainly maybe enough evidence to take to a jury. Why could they Why did they have to make a plea agreement with them and give them such a you know, a good deal basically just for kidnapping. It couldn't prove anything beyond kidnapping.
They couldn't prove anything because the only evidence they had that could have really tied him in to being something besides just an accessory was Barbara. And she told so many different versions, so many different times, and never would testify in court against him. She literally dug herself into a very deep hole and allowed him to get out of it pretty much because she had criminated herself to the point that they had no option but to charge her with capital murder.
Now you say, that Barbara Anne claimed to me. This doesn't make logical sense to me, but she claimed that he was going to sexually assault her as well as revenge for Vernon having sex with Barbara.
Now, he had mentioned that, I think in a fit of anger that he ought to do that. But she thought they were only coming over to kidnap her and scare her. Pretty well, I think is how they put it. He said, I bet that scared the hell out of her after she was lighting the pond shot in the head point blank.
But I don't understand why Barbara, and what was her explanation for wanting to do this. I mean, yeah, we just wanted to scare her and we wanted to kidnap her. Why would she be a participant in this the mix I think very crazy.
I think she was going to do it to make up to the doctor for having slept with Vernon. Wow, I think I think that was her logic. Her logic at that time was nothing like it is now. She's an entirely different person. Said, she's in prison in a controlled environment, her medication is adjusted right, and you know
she's she's just totally changed. But at that time I think her somewhat skewed reasoning was that if she helped him scare Darlene and get back at Vernon, then maybe he wouldn't be as mad at her for having slept at Vernon because she was totally dependent on him then for support and you know, a place to live and everything was he was literally taken care.
Of her, right so she did whatever. So he must have been on you know, I mean, they were drinking and they're doing pills, and they're living with each other, so he must have been on almost the same crazy kind of plain as her in terms of being out of character and pretty wild.
Yeah, I don't think he would have been like that had the accident not happened, because prior to that, I think, you know, he was, like I said, a very renowned neurosurgeon and he had nothing crossing him. There was nothing in life that was not in his control and that was not going his way, and nobody ever said no to him. And then all of a sudden, you know, everything fell apart from him. I think that accounts for a lot of his rage and the condition that he got himself into mentally.
Now, I want to get this further. The audience as well, though, that that Barbara Ann wore a surgical mask. She put a hood on to disguise her identity because obviously Darling would know who she was, and then that that would foil any kind of plans that they had to ambush her by virtue of the fake car accident or fake need of help on the road. Now, at some point
Barbara Ann's mask comes off. When was that? And then when was that the exact moment as far as you could find out, And then why did they despite her running away? Why do you think they killed her? It wasn't Darlene, I mean, part of it wasn't Barbara d Why do you think he killed her? If their original idea was just a kidnap?
Well, she Darlene first saw that that was Barbara after the doctor had her out of the car and was tying her up. Barbara got out and came out with a shotgun, and her mask slipped down and Darlene could see her face. And that's when she started really fighting back and trying to get away, and did manage to break free and run And I think I think that when she ran that Barbara fired I think about two shots at a distance, and did maybe get her peppered with buckshot just a little bit in the back as
she was running. But then Barbara started chasing her, and the doctor followed the log. He was excited because he already saw that the gun had come out and been used, and I believe he saw disaster come in his way if they were caught, and he knew that Darlene knew
who they were. And I think whenever he caught up with the two of them and they were down at the pond, I think he did the final shooting because for one thing, he was all hyped up with adrenaline, and for another thing, I don't think he wanted to be identified, and he realized at some point that he was going to be in even worse trouble than he already was in if they went ahead and she got away and identified them. After it had gone as far as it had.
Now you when we went back a little bit, that they left all kinds of evidence. And so the trail leads to these people quite easily. Give us a little bit on how quickly or how easily they were arrested or found out. They said it was a couple of witnesses. And then there are some other witnesses too that they speak to. So, but first tell us how the police finally arrest these people, how quickly that happens, and then we can talk about what Barbara Ann says to police.
Well, it happened really quickly, all things considered, because of those broken glasses. When she got hit in the face with the butt of the gun, whether by her firing it or by the doctor hitting her with it to get her back in control, which I think is what
happened at that point. She kept half the glasses some way and the other half fell down in the grass, and they were found, and the prescription was taken and read and traced back to Barbara from the place where she had gotten her prescription and over in Georgia Pearl vision. And then when they started checking on her and who she was, they found out that she was of Vernon's ex wife, and that rang a big bell, and she
had gone to Texas to her mother's funeral. Her poor mother, by the way, had literally dropped dead when she had heard that Darlene had been murdered because of her fear that Barbara was involved some way. Wow, And so they
went to Texas for her mother's funeral. And while they were out there, they talked to several you know, the family about different things that raised suspicion, Like one of them that was in law enforcement asked him about fingerprint technology and the rifling of the shotgun barrel that had been fired, and gunshot tracing an identification in several things.
And and the investigators found out where Barbara was. They called and spoke to one of her brothers who told him that he thought that they might have been involved in the murder, and told them that they were fixing to come back to Atlanta, and when they were going to get back to the airport, what flight they'd been on, and they were waiting for them, and arrested them right off the airplane.
Yeah, yeah, but.
It all stepped back to the glasses right.
Now.
They were both arrested, but under arrest, and you've already spoken that he didn't want to say anything. Anyone make any statement without a lawyer. They warned her as per customary, they said, you don't have to talk to us, but Barbara and talked. So what did she first what did she first say to police when she was first arrested, Well.
At first, she denied knowing anything about it, and then she said, well, well she knew what had happened, but she didn't have anything to do with it. And then she kept on admitting a little more as every few minutes, and then it ended up, well, yes I was there, but I didn't do anything. And by this time, you know, she had started breaking down and telling so many different versions and refused to wait to talk to a lawyer.
She had called a lawyer before they landed in Atlanta because they suspected they might need one, and she wouldn't wait for him.
She just she was a good lawyer too, Yeah, very good lawyer.
And the deal was she was supposed to wait and not make any statements until he was present. But by the time she finally connected up with him, she had made three long, lengthy statements and would summon the investigators to come and talk to her more. She she wanted to talk, and she talked and talked.
And talked, so she kept sinking further into the hole that she was creating for herself. But I found it fascinating that you've you've captured the actual dialogue from those meetings with police, and she does sound like a liar. She saw everything that's come out of her mouth, sounds convoluted and lies and rounding circles and avoiding certain things. But eventually she keeps talking like you say, and eventually some stuff comes out by virtue of just time. Isn't that correctly?
Exactly exactly? And the most information that I got on the biggest interview that is pretty much verbatim in the book, I got that off a videotape, so I got to actually see her body language at the time she was doing these things, and hear her different the tones of her voice as she would make these different statements, and she was just repeating herself and rattling and bouncing off the walls and fidgeting in her chair. And I've never
seen any more disorganized thing than that. And the poor gentleman that was talking to her ended up just pretty much sitting there and letting her just go. He didn't have to ask questions. She just pretty much cut loose and volunteered everything. And he was a very courtly, polite type of person, and he could not have been any nicer or you know, I guess you could use the term gentler with talking to her than he did. But
he just literally didn't have to do anything. She volunteered enough information to just make a good attorney fall over with a seizure, and she just kept on volunteering it. The poor thing. I I can't help but feel a little bit sorry for her because of that, because she had absolutely no clue what she was doing to herself.
Now, when Barbara Anne was incarcerated, also she with her pension for talking and wanting to talk. She also talked to one inmate in particular that ended up going to authorities. Tanya. I don't have her last name here, Regulado. That's it. Please tell us a little bit about this is another fascinating twist to this story.
Well, Miss Tanya, as it turns out, has a record from here to Texas. I mean, she has had a long, lengthy record, and she got it in for Barbara when they were in jail together. She didn't like Barbara and they were pretty much arch enemies during the time that they were both up here in the Cherokee County jail together. And it's very doubtful to me that Barbara said the
things that Tanya claimed she did. She may have said some of the things, but I believe that Tanya got in there and made some of it up just purely despite Barbara. She had nothing to gain. She wasn't offered any kind of deals because she'd already been sentenced at the time and was just waiting to be transferred. But I have had on good authority from several of the law enforcement officials that Tanya was just a highly unreliable source of information. But again, she was all ahead.
Well, but the police wanted to use I mean the police and the district attorney wanted to use her. So there must have been some corroborating evidence to some of the things that she said she claimed, because there was three different conversations, and there was some things that were not so relevant. I would say about say about the videotape that apparently Barbara had said to her that doctor she should found a videotape of Vernon and her having sex. Well,
who cares about that. But the thing that she said was the damaging thing was that Barbara had admitted to her that she had actually shot Darlene in the back of the head and in the back. So how valuable was that testimony? And you're already telling us that you didn't really believe it, But tell us why it was believed at least by the district attorney. And how was it taken at court at trial?
Well, I think Tanya had enough information from Barbara and probably from hearing the other inmates talking about it, that she was able to take some of the things that Barbara said and maybe expand on them a good bit, okay, And there was enough truth in it to make it convinced. And it's all they had to use, really of that sort of testimony and other than what Barbara had said at such great length. And I think that they used it because there was so much information in there that
was close to the truth. Some of the things that she said just didn't quite ring true to me. But I suppose it was just a situation of her being the only inmate that came forward with anything right that I saw in the files when I was going through things, that there was some information that I couldn't use because it wasn't it was hearsay. There was a third party that said that her experience in the jail with Barbara and Regulatto had been that Barbara that they hated each other.
Glado had made the statement that she would say to it that Barbara got the death penalty, and so that was something that couldn't be used in court. Therefore I didn't include it in the book, but I'll let you and the listeners know about it, just so you'll know one of the reasons I doubted the woman's statements.
Right, well, you do talk about and inmate, you know, saying that they did hate each other, you know, so that there was there there was some motive for someone lying, that's for sure. It never really has explained why they hated each other so much, but definitely Barbara was I guess some people wouldn't understand or be sympathetic to somebody that has certain conditions and psychiatric problems, and who knows the dynamics of personalities in the prison. Now at trial itself,
did Barbara take the stand? And how did what was the trial based on you alluded to before that it came down to did she have the strength basically from the injuries to be able to use that shotgun? I ask you as well, he had significant injuries too, and then so not that long a year or two later after these injuries, was there any question about whether he had the strength to be able to do that? And
how did that? How did how did they get to the to the decision one way or another that who shot the final shots, the ones that killed Darling and Roberts.
Well, the decision was made to charge Barbara because they had everything in the world to charge her with, including her own, you know, more or less confession, right, and she left them with no choice other than to charge her with capital murder. And she refused to take any sort of play bargain. She was offered deils literally right
up to the last minute, and refused them. All of her attorney begging her to and to take the plea and the DA's office practically begged her to take it to They didn't want her to get the death penalty, not really, because I don't think they believed that she was as responsible as the jury evidently came to fill.
But they didn't have any choice in the matter. She left them with absolutely no choice, and the judge had no choice in sentence in because with the capital murder conviction by the jury, the only two sentence and options were either a death penalty or life without parole.
Right.
And I don't know Barbara just you know, she dug herself into that position and then refused to help herself at all.
Why did she decline the flea bargain? What was her rustionale for that?
Well? Never really could figure that one out. Her attorney told me here just a few days ago, we were talking about that and he said, you know, on the last day, right before we went into the courtroom, they came up and made one last offer, and he said, I thought she was going to take it, and then he said this, It's like an expression came over her face, just like a veil fell down or something, and she said, no, wow, And I can't understand it. That's one of those things
that we're never going to really know. But I have a strong suspicion that the doctor had made some promises to her that if she didn't talk and didn't incriminate him, that he would take care of her in some way, and that didn't happen. Whatever he promised her, he did not come through with.
Now he like you say, he did just a few years in prison, she went through her appeal processes. Did she have any successful there appeals at all, it'd be all done with now.
She has not yet, but she's got still quite a ways to go. And the process, the appeal process here in Alabama's is fairly lengthy and it can take a long time and a lot of various court appearances. Now, I think she's been up here either two or three times for short court appearances, but so far she's not had any luck. But I feel like she might possibly be able to at some point.
But really, all she's really looking as a reduction of the death penalty to life without parole.
Well, she got that the judge overrode the jurish recommendation of the dancing and sinister to the life without parole. But I think the only thing she could hope to gain would be the possibility of parole way down the line somewhere. It would be years, years in the offing. Even if she won the appeal. Now, if she wanted a new trial, that things might be very different, and she is working on that, but that's not made any progress up until this point, and her appeals have not
worked up until this point. But I have a feeling that they may in the future. It may be many years in coming, but I think eventually something will shake loose on this. She may just finally decide to talk and tell whatever it is that she has been quiet about all this time.
Right. Well, it's you know, it's an amazing story that you've captured in great, great detail and very exciting read to take us through this whole journey basically from this crazy behavior and the fascinating trial. Usually trials are a foregone conclusion, especially death fun only ones, but this one had enough you really didn't know what was going to happen. Actually, So that's you know, it's a great book, and I want to thank you for coming on the program and talking about it today.
Well, I certainly do appreciate it. I could I could go on for a long time about this one and not cover all the points that came up.
Yes, absolutely, Yes, what are you working on right now? You have a new book in the works.
You were talking a well, well, I'm looking at a couple of things. We had one case where a gentleman clubbed his girlfriend with a steel pipe and put her in the truck of the car and drove her around for several hours and then took her out and stabbed
her about one hundred and fifty times. Wow, I'm looking at that one, of course, see he has pled guilty, But the story in that one is not so much the murder as the officer that was the first one to respond when the killer's mother called nine to one one. This young guy, real, really nice young kid that I've known for years since he was a young pup. It was his fifth day on the job and he was the first officer on the scene of the first murders in the county.
Yeah. I always being involved in something as well, I always wonder most about the officer that has to see. You know, there's grizzly scenes and then there's even more spectacular spectacles presented. But you know, one hundred and fifty stab wounds is and it's pretty good. Yeah, Like you say, five days in, it's like, wow, welcome to Welcome to the toughest job in the world for sure.
Yeah. And this is a This is a really When he was a young teenager, he was a very innocent, white eyed, just most hoplesome kid in the world. And I know he'd never been exposed to anything like that before. And I'm anxious to talk to him and see just
exactly how that affected him. And the other case that I'm looking at is a young lady that poisoned her stepfather with propofol, which was used in my Jackson's okay, and she has been indicted by the grand jury for capital murder, so that's going to be a big trial. So I'll be attending that one.
Sure sounds good. Don't think you get your hands full, for sure. A couple of good, great books and the works keep it for a while. Absolutely well, killers keep you busy, right, they'll do it. Yeah, yeah, Well. I want to thank you very much Sheila for coming on the program with your great book Blush, Blood Ambush, Lovers, Liars, Killers, great stuff. Thank you very much for appearing on the program. And I wish you the best of luck with his book. But I'm sure it's going to sell like hotcakes.
So oh, thank you so much. You have a good evening, okay, and same to you and all the listeners.
Thank you, good night, good night. Even listening to the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that are written about them, with my special guest Shila Johnson and the book Blood Ambush, have yourself a good evening. This is Dan Zupsky. Good Night,