BEYOND KILLER FICTION-Sondra London

House published Killer Fiction in nineteen ninety seven. Now comes the new expanded collection that also includes the story Schaefer wrote in prison for Sondra London seventy three. Illustrations include drawings by Schafer seized by police in nineteen seventy three and uses evidence to convict him of murder. Impressionistic sketches of Schaeffer by Sondra London and facsimiles of his handwritten statements.

The book that were featuring this evening is Beyond Killer Fiction Rogue Copp with my special guest, investigative journalist and author, Sondra London. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Sondra London.

but he kept looking at me. And so there I stood there at the punch bowl and he came up. It sounds a kind of corny and cliche, but it did happen that way. And he came up and chatted me up, and he got my name but not my phone number, and we both went back to our respective dates and continued the evening. But he went home and he looked up in the phone book every name with that last name and called them until he found me.

And so what I like to say about that is that was the first I'd been pursued by a serial killer, but it wasn't going to be the last.

he was outdoorsman. He loved to go out. The family had a boat and loved to go out on the boat and go fishing and go hunting. His father and his brother also did. And we did a lot of normal things that kids do dating, went to the dances, in the football games, and went to the beach. We were in Fort Lauderdale, so going to the beach is big. The thing was a little different when John was all this outdoor stuff, which I never really that was not part of my interests or anyone I ever knew, So

that was new. And he would take me out in the Everglades and go hunting or He took me out on a thing people might recognize called Whiskey Creek. In the beach, there's usually a little strip of water that's behind the sceand it's like a tidewater pool, but down there it's called Whiskey Creek. They used to use it for Moonshine took me out there. We were supposed to be out there and come back, But the way I heard it was he got the information wrong about when

the tide was out. So the tide went out and we couldn't come home and stuck at Whiskey Creek in his boat came home. That was a little stress over that, and I thought, you know, there was really nothing creepy about it. Nothing happened bad. But I think back and I just wonder, you know that, really there's something wrong with that. Because he was so attuned to the outdoors, the weather and knowing when the tide comes in. It's

kind of base. And the more I learned about John later, the more began to look back on and examine what I went through. And I learned that John would pact people and he would find out what they were like, and then he would treat them accordingly. So it could be that that little interlude we had at on Miskey Creek could have ended differently. But I was a good girl.

I was a nice girl. I was a virgin, and unbeknownst to me, when we're getting to know each other and talking about, oh I like this, I like that, or you know, whatever people do in their meeting, that he was profiling me. And what he would say later was I'd offer a girl twenty bucks for a blowjob, and she took it. She was dead meat. He had a complex virgin horror or complex. So I was switched called the virgin, so I was really safe from him, from the things that obsessed him. I didn't see them.

And I think it's important to realize that a serial killer is not like a regular killer. He's able to rack up all of those scores because he can pass for normal, and he can mix with people and not attract the kind of attention that we we like to think that we can tell when someone's a wrong number. Right, he'd like to say, Oh, man, you know, I got a sense for people there that are off and that's why serial killers are so rare. You know, people talk

like that are talking about regular offenders. If you will just plain disturbed people, but a serial killer masks that and you don't see it. And so that set for me later when I found out about his primes none years later, it set up for me the mystery of how in the world I spent a year with this guy and we were as close as can be. We were steady boy from and girlfriend knewly Minzuela as you can know anyone, and at the same time he had

this whole other life going on. So that was the mystery that determined my going into this issue than in nineteen eighty nine to really to face up to it and try to come to terms with the With my experience.

they executed. And I noticed on the media everything was Bundy, Bundy, Bunny, and everything was serial killers, serial killers. So I bought that book by Anne Rule and read it and said him and I did not think that she was that good of a writer, and I did not think from her story that she knew that fellow that well. And I said to myself, I can write better than that. Number one. Number two, I knew a serial killer a lot more than she did, and maybe I'll write about that.

So I looked up to the police, sheriffs and the Port Lauderdale police, Brown County. I called them and I said, you got a Geword shaper down there in prison, and I was thinking of contacting him, but I wanted to find out did he ever kill that girl? That lived by him, Lee hang Aline, and the police looked and they came back. Now you see that's not someone who knows anything, right, it's just someone who's sitting on a desk.

I'm just gonna go ahead and contact him. So I believe if I had confirmed that he was a suspect in the disappearance of Lee Hainline, that I would not have contacted him. But I did.

all this kind of stuff. So, at any rate, looked like the deal was on. So he proceeded to exchange letters. And the working premise was I asked him, you know, when you got arrested, there were all those stories, and I said, do you still write that stuff? Yeah? And he or, well, yeah, And then it started a whole new deluge of this activity that Schaeffer liked to engage in, involving writing. So we have those stories he wrote for me, or maybe I should say at me, at you, he

hurled them at me. Let me explain what I see going on here. It's a perversion that is analogous to lawyerism. I'm sorry, exhibitionism. I'm sorry, I said, the only thing exhibitionism. And so he sits there and he creates this appalling, shocking, disgusting scenario that appeals to his perversions, and then he packs it up and he sends it to you, and then he sits there and just grins, thinking about how this is going to hit you, because it does hit you.

The things that he wrote for me in that book are assaultive, palpably assaultive. Okay, it hurts to read it. I don't recommend this book. Let me say start right off here. I don't recommend this book for anyone who is tenderhearted, or anyone who just like me, wants to have fun. You know, girls just want to have fun. Don't read this book. This is for people who are very serious about trying to learn about the pathology that

creates these violent crimes. It occurs in the mind. And we have gone deeper in this book than anyone ever has. And I've had many people review this work and say that, not just me. I wouldn't dare say that, because how would I know. But since it's been out, there's been all kind of reviews where they have said it's more explicit horrifying than Marquis de Sade. And there really isn't anything more depraved or explicit than this book. And so you have to understand what the nature of it is.

And if you come to read this book, you have to know what you're doing. Okay, this is not like a Disney rider. You get it on and you louuh, that's fine. This is the real thing. We're talking about the kind of minds that are still walking around, and that is the kind of things that they are thinking, and we don't like to hear it. But I agree

with Shaeffer. It with Shaeffer's esthetic that he taught me, and now I agree with him that it serves the public better to go with the disgusting viol explicit repulse. They've horrifying true thinking. You are better served to know that than you are to read some disneyfied version, because all that can do is ttilate you and give you the wrong idea of what violence is all about. It makes it seem like recreational entertainment that anyone could participate

in by cleaning it up and expregating it. And so I went the other way. I put everything in there that you don't want to hear. And I experienced a lot of trauma working on this project. I got over it by getting over it. It got through it. I did it. I closed the book, I went on with my life, and I got better. Now I'm deep into it again and It's just like a psychological reenactment of a trauma, because I feel it again. I feel traumatized working on this now.

This volume is limited to the fiction that he wrote at one time or another, and the next one I'm going to include some of the dialogues that we went through back and forth between writer and editor about what I would allow him to do, so there were limits drawn. There are things that he sent me that I refused to publish, and I'll just say briefly because I don't like to dwell on it. He was obsessed with defecation.

It's a very primitive and very regressive kind of obsession and disgusting and I always explained to him that that's disgusting and that he can write about murder or anything. But when he starts going on and on and on about toilet functions, I'm just like John, I'm not going to publish this, Okay. We don't want to read that. We are grown up. We don't we're not interested in PPKKA Okay, So you can be assured that what he

actually wrote had a lot more of that than it. However, I did allow and that wait, we argued fought so much that he got real canny, and he'd work it into the plot where it had to be in there, right because I say, it's just good too, because you spent the first five pages of the story with them sitting in the bathroom and taking a poop, you know what I mean. It's just infantile. We don't want to read it. Nobody does. Well, that's when we went through writing.

is honest. But that's also complicated by the fact that some of these stories that are in this book were used to convict him of murder somehow, somehow.

pages and it's just too much material. And when I worked with the Shaeffer during the time I worked with him on this original project, you know, I accumulated a huge, massive amount of data and I could only put out one book, and I could only tolerate so much of this, and I was having hurt to just get that book out and just get it off off of my desk and out of my daily schedule so I didn't have to deal with it. So I put it out one book full of stuff. I put out one book full

of stuff. So of all this other stuff. So now, given the study of Shaffer's mind in this reciprocal arrangement, given that, next we move on to the next volume where we do examine what is on the record, and we go over exactly what he did claim and then what was actually found and what is supported by other evidence. And we came to the part with my little game with him. I provoked him. I kept telling him to write more, and oh, he was such a great writer,

and let's see more. And really every day it was hurting me so much, and it was so painful and it was so difficult, but the tap was running, and I felt that this was valuable information, even if I was unable to analyze it as such at the time, I was able to get the information. So I kept it going as long as I could, collected as much as I could, and try to use that to kind of work found it. So we getting into the spirit of all this. As things went on, he you know,

here's something I haven't mentioned in this interview yet. Shaeffer had two stories that he required me to maintain at all times, two opposite stories. He would would go on and on and on about how he was an innocent framed ex coup who got framed because he knew about a dope dealing in the high places, and he was just a creative writer and he wrote really good creative writing that made people think it was real. That was

one story. The other story was he was what he liked to quote the the DA and the headlines saying that he was the greatest killer of in this century. And he would say that, you know, I'm the greatest, you know, and you've got the real thing, you know, and oh I've beat a whoors to a bloody pulp, you know. And he would go on and on and

say all these affirmative statements about incriminating himself literally. But then when I would he would hear me saying that he was a serial killer, he would lose his mind and go into an absolute rage and want me killed and my daughter killed, and he files suit against me

because he's not a serial killer. He filed suit against Colin Wilson, against Mike Newton against Harold Schechter against I can't think of the other guard's name, but another truck grime author and everyone for calling him a serial killer. But he was also you know, saying you was he?

So I collected when he sued me, I collected five hundred pages of his handwritten statements and made a document I called the five hundred pages, and I attached to my response to the lawsuit to bring it to the attention of the judge and say, this is what we're dealing with here, judge, and I need you to look over at this. And this man has made all of these statements freely of his own will. And that's my response. And I refused to be drawn to be required to

come to court where he is. You know. He wanted me to come to court, you know, and I refuse to do that. But I need you to review this, your honor, thank you, and your honor just threw it out, you know. That was that for that same five hundred pages went to Mike Newton, and his court ruled and made very very poignant comments about you know, these documents, these five hundred pages. Now he proudly asserts his status

as a serial murderer. So then when he sued Colin Wilson in England, the judge commented that he was libel proof. And so these comments by the judges made a different cases, were passed around and used to defeat him in his efforts. But he didn't care. He'd like to be annoying and these saying I may not win in court, but I'll sure break them going to defend themselves, you know. So that was the nature throughout the entire Schaeffer experience. The

two stories. When he all I wrote this piece about him, that he ran it off on one side of piece paper. He took that and he copied it and he sent it around to newspaper editors everywhere. So I'm talking about is he youer a killer? Or is he framed up? Which was his story was a question is he framed

cop is what my question asked. He goes here, he hand writes on these this, dear your name editor, you have eighteen unsolid homicides in your jurisdiction, and to find out more about what happened to these victims, contact media queens Sondra London. He sent all these around to these people. And so this one which was us today. He said he wanted to talk to me. So I came into

his office. I sent there in his office in USDA today and I'm saying, yeah, well, he says he's a framed cop and all this, and then he pulls out that note. He says, you wrote this. Yes, he said, well why did he write this stuff here? And he shows it to me and I'm just like, well, there you have it, there you have it. He sends me out to tell the world he's a framed cop. Then he rides on it. I've got unsolved homicides I want to talk about. See. So this is really really madness,

don't you see? Yes, And being dangled around like that for years it really was traumatic, I must admit.

don't need, want, or simply forgot about. On average, people save up to seven hundred and twenty dollars a year with true Bill. Because companies make subscriptions hard to cancel, Truebill makes it incredibly simple. Just link your accounts and true bill will cancel your unwanted subscriptions in one tap. And your True Bill concier is there when you need them to cancel unwanted subscriptions, so you don't have to.

True Bill was easy to sign up for. I just signed up and they've saved me almost one hundred dollars. I love True bill and saving money, and you will too. True bill has over two million users and help save them over one hundred million, Like Matthew b who says in a matter of seconds, I saved six hundred and sixty dollars for the year on my direct TV. Bill saved one hundred and twenty dollars for the year on my Serious XM. Bill saved eight hundred and forty dollars

a year on car insurance. Don't fall for subscription scams. Start canceling today at true bill dot com slash true murder, Go right now, true bill dot com slash true murder. It could save you thousands a year. Now, Sondra, we were talking about that you had to fight this person that you were supposedly collaborating with to write this book for the purported porpoise, for the purported purpose of having him explore maybe be some insights gained through his writings.

And he is a good writer, and you talk about some of the training he had before you came on the scene and help them as well as any editor do would shape a writer's writing and the story for the book.

he did without telling me. He went behind my back and he assumed an identity of a sixteen year old girl that was a fictional character of his that he called Crystal Beavers. And in this persona he invented, she is a on about people going to getting convicted of

murder and not being executed promptly. And so she supposedly got this nonprofit called Justice Now, and she's agitating for all the people who are serving life like John Shaeffer, and people who are sitting on death row but hadn't been killed yet, and to advocate for hurry it up and kill them, all right, That is the character he invented. So what did he do? Then? He start writing letters to death row inmates in the other states as Crystal Hi I'm Crystal. I represent justice now and we want

to see people like you brought to your execution. You're wasting the people's money and wasting my life. And he's writing to people all over on death row as Crystal. Okay. So he picked on a Virginia and then I got uh informed about this by the authorities and they he had death row in Virginia in such an uproar, and that's how I met Joe Odell. Odell was like the hall monitor of the whole death row, the only one with any sense, and everyone brought every issue to him,

and he was like the president of death row. Right. So he writes and he's like, this is terrible. Why is this justice? This Crystal Beaver's doing this and everything. You know. I wrote to Joe Dell. I said, okay, look, there is no Crystal Beavers. This is a convict who is doing this to prove to me that his characters are more real than they should be. All right. So Joe Dell was like, what, well, lo and behold. Joe O'Dell had done time in Florida at the same prison,

and he knew Shaffer. Okay, Joe O'Dell was in prison in Florida State Prison when the warden was dealing dope, and Joe Odell helped bust the warden for the dope dealing ring. And they opened the doors of the prison and they said, go leave Florida. Don't come back. He had one hundred year sentence. They opened the door of the prison and they called it off and they said, don't come back to Florida. And so he fetched up in Virginia, got in trouble on a murder. So then

I dealt with him for about a year. He wrote a whole book. Not a year, about more like four years. He wrote a whole book about Shaefer and me and harassing them on death row. This just goes on and on and on. Dan, It's not normal.

know that is real. See, so that's a true story. So it all gets into the delving into the pathology of the mind here and goes in a lot of different directions. My friend, I'll tell you another one where when we first started working together, before we met in person in a visit, I wrote him a letter and I said I was concerned because of the things that he had told me as a teenager, and then they

kind of gave me pause, and I was concerned. And so when we got together in person, he asked me about that, and he said, what were you talking about? Those things I told you that gave you concern? And so then I told him what he had told me. Would you like me to go ahead and tell you that now? Yes, all right. We were kids and instead of going out to a party or a dancer having fun, he wanted to go down to the beach and hide

under the plank. I mean, usually when we took the blanket, we'd go in and lie down and make out, right, but no, we sit in on the sand and we put the blanket over our heads. And then he cries and he goes to pieces and he uh, he's complaining about his life and all his problems. And you know, that's great, that's great, That's just great. You know what, if I was seventy five years old and a wise person, I might be interested in that. But I was sixteen

years old and girls just want to have fun. My friend, it was a drag okay, if you really want to know, that was what it was like to me. It was a drag okay. And I was just rolling my eyes when she shut up. And so he goes on, here's what he's telling me. He wants to kill women, and that there was a woman on his street. He lived on a cool det sack at the end, and she lived up where that little short road hit the regular road, riot at a tea bone that was on the corner.

And I've been there many times. And so she liked to go in her backyard and sunbathe. Okay, she would wear a bikini in her backyard sunbathing. That's the fact, as he related now he describes it in how that hit him. He is a virtuous He's on the mountaintop of virtue actually where he lives on this mountaintop of virtue, and he's just going out for a walk and he sees this horror flaunting herself at him. All right, those are the words. Okay, this poor lady, she's just sitting

in her own backyard, mine in her own business. She's not nat just wearing the babies, look all the rest of us in Florida. She's just sitting in her yard. That's the facts. And then it triggers him into this whole whar thing. And the thing is that she's dragging him down off of his pinnacle of righteousness. You know, he would be such a righteous person if it just wasn't for these women flaunting themselves at him. They were trying to, you know, upset him and take him horse.

You know. So he told me he determined she needed to be punished. And so he found out when uh, well, of course he knew. Obviously he didn't find out when they ran the garbage on the street. That was a Tuesday. So on the Tuesday, and he drove the station right and say he took Casey when I parked it right next to her house wait for her to bring her trash out. And he had concrete blocks and he had a blanket, and he had a rifle, and he had ropes and he had knives, okay, in the back of

the car. And his plan was when she came out to uh to uh get through trash, that he would take the blanket and mob her with the blanket and you know, wrapping arms around her in the blanket and throw her in the back of the of the car and get her down to the end of the street, which is where their boat was docked. At the end of the street, the street ended in the canal, Okay, so then and that's where their boat stayed in the water.

So he'd muscle her down into the car and driving the end of the street, put her in his boat, take her out to the Gulf stream, shoot her, wave her, and sink her and no one would ever know. Okay, that is what he told me while we're sitting out on the beach. And why didn't he do it because his father came along in his car and drove up next to John and said, John, what are you doing? And John, you know, oh, and so he canceled the

mission because of that because his father came along. So let's uh, that was what he told me when we were kids. So now let's go back to our first and meeting face to face in prison, whereas he I told him that whole story. I said, that's what you told me. And he said that's very interesting. And he said, because that's not what happened. I said, oh okay. And so that's when he wrote the story gator bait, and he wrote dude in a way that included his little moco. Excuse me, I have to call.

I tore it in half. And then I put it back in the envelope and sent it back to him. But that was a turning point for me because I always had to ask myself, even now, why should I get upset about the ugly way he talks about a black person when I've set here for two years listening to the way he talks about every every woman, every child, every every man, every gay person. Yeah, and he even goes.

He spends quite a while there. When he gets into it on the Mideast, on the Arabs, he likes to go off on them, Oh god, and don't even mention the Jews. Look, I gotta tell you this part. This is how crazy he is and how crazy this whole project was. I had a girlfriend who was a lesbian, and she'd been in a relationship with another woman for five years and the other woman dumped her for a skinny Jewish girl. Okay, so I'm out with my friend and we're telling you. She said he's still writing. Is

that crazy guy? And I'm like, yeah, man writing these stories? And she says does he take requests? And I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe what do he want? And she says, we'll make one of them a skinny Jewish girl. I'm like, okay, so I mentioned it to him, just I have no idea. Oh god, when I mean, it could be anyone. They could be Polish, French, I don't care English. If whatever it was I requested, they would come out full of some kind of vile characterization. But it happened to be Jews.

So there he goes off with all this anti Semitic stuff. And then people will read this and say, you know, this is not fun. Why don't I have to read these insulting things about Jews? Why do I have to read this terrible thing where he calls black people old fashioned names that we don't use anymore, you know. And then then you have to ask, well, how did you get this power in the book? What about the rest

of the people he talked about? That was okay? You see, he said, so reading it it really makes you question your own reactions in that sense, there's no need and you cut to a special exception. Because the guy was black, he's supposed to write nicely about him. That's not going to happen. If he was fat, he'd write something about him being fat, right, I don't care what he was, it would turn it into something ugly.

all this is no good. And then when they understand how much he's into, like his perversions and stuff, that's disgusting and they know it, you know. So, And before they murdered him with knives, they set his cell on fire three times, and they also attacked him with knives, failing to kill him, but wounding him severely, okay. And they would throw, you know, experiment and urine all him. So all this posing, imposturing, trying to assign himself some

spurious dignity. It comes from the lowest of the low in the lowest social venue that exists, reviled among the lowest, with no respect at all.

that's right, that's right, okay. And if you think that you want to find out what's going on in the mind of a seriously disturbed human being who is capable of the most profound violations of God's creation. If you think you want to know, then you come to this book. Take as much as you can. But if you can't stand it, dis close the book because it definitely gets

worse as you're reading through it. It gets harder and harder and harder to absorb because you're you just want you just want it to be normal, You just want to make sense of it. But it really does there to find out about real pathology.

every character in there is Shaeffer. Yeah, so he's got the cop, you know, the cop Shaefer tracking down the killer Shafer in prison, you know, And so you can see it that way. But yes, it is a completely different style, and he wrote it for a different kick, got a different kind of kick out of it. You start. I started this book with the Stark stories expecting Dinner in the other one that I've been persuaded not to mention. And I wanted to tell you something about those two stories.

You know, I did that documentary with Errol Morris, and you know he's the number one documentary filmmaker in the world, right Errol Morris wanted to make a film out of those two stories, early release and the other one. And he told me that and I said, oh, Eryl, no, no, this stuff is just nasty. I said, I don't want to see you make a film about this stuff, and I turned him down.

killing you. He forgets about what sins are, so his justifica, he forgets about everything.

in their heart, and they're trying to cope with. They're trying to maybe find a way to control all it. So when we think of church people, we generally think, oh, good people, nice people, law abiding people that do the right thing. But remember that religions serve another purpose. Religions are there for sinners, and these are sinners.

And then some of the remains turned up that had not turned up when he which was Lee Haneline, the very one that I stood outside her window and John told me that she would undress in front of him and that he was gonna put a stop to that. And Honey, I will never forget that scene. I can see it now just like it happened five minutes ago, because he had an emotional mix that I'd never seen before, and I don't think I've ever seen it again. And that was a mix between arousal and anger. Rage. Really

it was really rage, but let's call it anchor. And you would see that entwined, inextricably entwined. You know. I didn't know anything about him murder, nothing, but it stopped me in my tracks. The emotional tone that he presented with when he talked to me about Lee, and it stood out when he was out there on the beach cline and everything, Oh, he wanted to do him and it was not the same thing that was a sad, broken emotion, but this thing where he was standing out

there talking about Lee was angry. And anger has energy, you know, so you just like U, had energy coursing through him talking about He's just gonna put a stop to that.

and it was catchy. And he said that to the two girls that he abducted and kidnapped and trusted up. He said to them, nobody, no crime. And he had repeated that phrase, you know, throughout his life several times. And he was saying that phrase at age seventeen, nobody, no crime. So I think that he gave enough thought to that that he planned these murders. He did down to the corpse disposed and that he was smart and

knew how to do corpse disposal. And what he told me then the Everglades, and then he told me the what do they call it, that current that goes down the east coast, what's it called the Gulf stream. You get that body out in the Gulf stream, and that's it. That takes care of it right then and there. And so he had that all figured out. And then when he came along to this jessup in place murder, I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry to say this, but it

doesn't matches him all. It doesn't really conform to anything about him. The crime scene had hundreds of pieces of quote unquote evidence, things that they took into account. Not a single piece of it can to him. Okay, there were cigarette butts, he doesn't smoke. Okay. These bodies were hacked into quarters and kind of crude quarters, and they were thrown out in the sand on the beach nearby a hole. The hole was two feet by two feet by four feet and it's in the sand, and they

found it three months after John went to prison. Went to jail. John was locked up, and that hole shows no erosion. I mean, I don't know if you've ever built a sand castles, but this is sand and the photograph of it shows that like it was carved last night, and the bodies were not in it, and it was not a grave. A grave is not two feet by two feet by four feet, and it caught a grave. And then they had branches around and they had marks in the branches. They never found a weapon that conformed

those marks. The ropes that were stuck with fringes of ropes stuck in the in the wood did not match any ropes that Schaeffer had, of which he had quite a lot, but not any that matched. No forensics matched at all. There was nothing that placed him on that clime scene. I don't think he got a fair trial. I would have appreciated the interest American justice. Did anyone get a fair trial? I don't really think he did that killed those girls. He wasn't. Those girls were not molested.

And schaeffer theory, which sounded pretty good to me, is that they were cut up practically so and there was no clime scene. They weren't murdered there. There was no blood. The bodies were just dumped there next to this hole. No no evidence of a murder having taken place there. So those girls were killed somewhere in some apartment or something, and they packed cut the pieces up and put them in suitcase, carried them out of there. It was not any kind of a sex fetishistic torture. There was not

a sex torture. Those girls were not touched sexually. The lower half of the torso still had the jeans on attached and zipped, and it just doesn't go with Schafers. So my theory is this, maybe he did know something about all the dope dealing. The chief investigator on his case went to prison for dope dealing. Okay, the Criminal Justice building where they have the jail and so forth. It's called the Rollerson building. Oh Man, Rollerson was hauled away to do big time for a dope dealing working

with the local officials. So maybe Schaeffer knew about wrongdoing in the high places. Maybe when they started investigating his case they learned about all these other cases that they could not bring and they said, oh my god, he's been running up and down killing all these people. We can't even charge him, and we've got him on this, So how about let's just convict him and that'll be that.

this guy's an innocent nice you know, voy scout. Anyone who came in contact with him would be just shocked and disgusted at what they learned, and they'd be like, oh my god, let's stop him. I don't know what you have to do to stop him, just stop him. So they got him on these two and I think they left it at that, and everybody was happy.

to be supported. That we can come up with about nine people that were pretty sure he killed The teeth were found in his possession, their IDs, their birth certificates, for God's sake, their private diaries were found in his possession. Okay, so we're pretty sure that he killed them. But I think there's people beyond that we don't know about. And

he did travel in five continents, okay. And he was in a Morocco and he kept talking about the white slave trade and things that were going on internationally, and he put all that in his fiction. And he continued to drive to talk to me, and I continued to blow him off because I just didn't want to hear it. More.

I learned more about Jeffrey Epstein and the kind of things that were going on, and women to the sawt ease and so forth, I said, Oh my god, you know, he might have really actually known something.

that's not true. But I can go through my explanation of what the modern organized serial killer is and use the Shafer Kate case to illustrate every salient point.

So I went. They referred me right straight to the top guy, Roy Hazelwood. He became my personal mentor. He mentored all this. So I knew writing to SHAEFFERD knew that I was writing to Roy hazel Wood. And Roy Hazelwood is author of a book auto erotic asphyxiation, and that's where you use hanging type mechanisms to give yourself an orgasm. And he wrote a book called that at Associations.

So Shaffer says, well, I'm the world's expert on this, and he doesn't know anything because only people he found were dead and they failed. They didn't know how to do it. But I know how to do it. So uh, with the media queen's assistance, I would correspond with Roy Hazelwood, and I'll teach him what for about all, you know,

bless him with my wisdom about this. And so I'm going to be including the letters that went back and forth from Schaeffer and Hazelwood in my fact book, and you'll see again that same shitty attitude right where he's talking to Roy Hazelwood, like he's a puppy, you know, and extremely derogatory and disrespectful. So Roy entertained him shortly for a couple of letters, and then he's like, I don't have time for this. You know, he's bullshit. So

then hear what he did. I told you how he wrote all these editors saying, contact media queen about homicide. So he did another little mail out. This was to every cop shop in the country. He sent one of these mail outs and then he said, you know, unsolved homicide and stuff, and contact Sundra London, the close personal friend of Roy Hazelwood. Okay, okay. He wrote every law enforcement office he you know, seen nothing else to do.

He wrote to every cup shop in our country telling him that I had a thing going with Roy Hazelwood. And how did I find out? I got a call from Roy. Hi. I was a high Roy, you know it's going on and everything, you know, and I hadn't heard from you, you know, and he said, well, guess what your boy's up to now? Yeah? Right, And he told me and I was just horrified down to the soles of my feet and my little curling up toes.

I was so disgusted and angry, and I was roy I never told him anything like that, you know, But what can you think? I mean, I can say I never said that, But he's no For all he knows, I'm running around telling people that I'm his fleas. I never said anything like that. That was Schaefer. So that's the kind of stuff that he would do.

That hearing was moved three times. And I had a reporter tell me why that was moved, because he had it from three forces that these authorities thought that the any Roman was going to take me hostage and escape, and they got it from Shaeffer'd say.