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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. Nearly one hundred years since his death, Bat Masterson still holds great influence. Remembered by many for his adventures in America's Old West. Buffalo hunter, scout, gunfighter, and even lawman as Dodge City sheriff in twentieth century New York City, became a sportswriter. However, Masterson left a legacy that is much more intricate. Masterson always stood up for the underdog, and his real legacy was how he fought
for them. After the days of the Old West were over, he laid down his gun and picked up his pen. So great was his writing that he vastly respected. He was vastly respected for his opinions on many topics of the day, including crime, politics, and war. But bat Masterson had a secret, one that he kept well hidden his entire life, for if known, he and all those he cared about would be ruined, his reputation and all that he worked for in his life would be in tatters.
The book that were featuring this evening is Bat Masterson, The First Dreamer, with my special guests, journalist and author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, Read Rosen.
Dan it is. It is a huge pleasure to be here talking to you about this book. It's a huge pleasure.
Well, thank you how much. Sorry, I'm sorry for interrupting you. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on and the first interview you've done about this book. So I feel privileged to have you on talking about this book again. As I mentioned before, so many parallels to today's political situation. But bat Masterson, you've brought to life. Tell our audience read why how important this book bat Masterson is to you? How long have you wanted to write this book? Tell us a little bit about that.
Oh boy, I knew you were going to ask that, and I have wanted to a boy, give me a second. I've wanted to write this book for over forty years, and gee, I guess I'm dating myself. But what happened was when I was when I was a child, I watched the TV series and it was the late fifties and I was a child, Dan, but I was a huge fan of westerns TV westerns, which were very They were the most popular genre at that point. This is
before reality shows. And there was a show called Bat Masterson and I got into watching it, and at the very end of the show, Dan, there was the final title card that said based on the book by Richard O'Connor. And I'm a kid, and I'm sitting there and going, wait a second, the guy's real. I couldn't believe it, you know, And and then and then and then I went, gee,
that's something. And then in the nineteen seventies, I was still interested and I started doing some research and I find out the guy comes to New York City and becomes a reporter. But even more than that, he he what he becomes best known for is a reporter, though becomes here as a sports writer. He writes a big story about what became known as the First Trial of the Century nineteen o six, and this was it was
a murder case. Murder Yeah, well it depending upon who you talk to and where a guy gets gets a girl pregnant and then drowns her because he doesn't want to have her kid, suppose it, or want her to have a kid supposedly. Okay, it becomes the basis of Rice is an American tragedy. Uh, the film a place
in the song of Montgomery Cliff and Liz Taylor. And but but the truth gets lost, okay, which is that this was the most sensational murder case in the history of New York and the guy that covered it for his newspaper was Bat Masterson. And he solves it. And that's what got me, you know, the fact that he solved it. Dan and he and and and and he here was a guy that already worked on quite a few murdicases.
Right, take us back as you do, because we're going to hold back this secret. But tell us it won't be long before that's revealed. But let's let's find out about his back crown, about his mother and his father and his life growing up. And tell us a little bit about Thomas and his wife Catherine and their life, about where they came from, originally and where they were from before they moved to Missouri.
Tell us about well, I'll tell you about it. But I also have to say to everybody listening today that I don't you know, I believe in you can call it faith, you can call it God. It's no accident that you're interviewing me about this because you're a Canadian. Well so is bat Masterson. And that was the point. Bat Masterson was what today we call a dreamer. He came to America from Canada as a child in the early eighteen sixties and the he uh in those days, uh,
it was legal, it was. It really was an open border, Okay, but but it all changed. And that was what was so fascinating to me. Dan about this from I don't even think it. I could. I guess I could say a political point of view. But see today in America, and I'm sure you know you you got you see if you see this, they're always writing about dreamers from
the southern border, and our president is against them. Well, when I was writing this book, I said, you know something, I got a choice here, Okay, I can either get political or I can report the facts. And I thought about you, and I said boys friend. If you don't report the facts, Dane will give you a hard time. So I I so I did my reporting, and I was shocked, Okay, I was shocked to find out how many presidents we've had, going back to Miller Fillmore, we're
looking in eighteen fifties, who who were today? They were nationalists, nativists, Okay, And and and Masterson's family his mother was from was from Ireland, his father was his father's family came from Ireland, but he was a Native Canadian in Quebec Province. I gotta be careful how I pronounced it. And uh. And they, like many individuals around the world from then until now, looked at our country as a place to go and find a new life. And so they moved into upstate
New York. And but for whatever reason, it didn't work for them, and they kept they kept tuning. With a lot of people did. They went west, and literally west. I mean, you know, it's pretty far west to go from from uh, you know, go from New York to Kansas, especially in those days. But they did it. And that's of course where Masterson grew up in his reputation was developed.
You talk about the how they got to this this journey to the west into Missouri finally, and you say it was a dangerous time as well, and there was still games roaming the state supporting one side or the other from the Civil War, including Jesse and Frank James. They start robbing banks. And in eighteen seventy, you talk about the census in eighteen seventy, what did what did they have to say to the census takers at that time in eighteen seventy We'll see how that changes.
Well, that's the fact. Okay, That's where it gets very interesting when you compare it to what's happening in this country today. Okay, what happened was is when is when masterson family was his father was questioned about, you know, by the census in those days, and I believe this, this went up until the nineteen sixties. You got a question on the census about where he came from, and his father said the truth that they came from Canada. Because in those at that point it was not illegal.
That changed because when I say was not a legal to come from Canada, what I mean was they never applied for citizenship. They just walked across the word, you.
Know, mhm.
And and that old but that all changed and and and and that. Again, it was so shocking to me because you know, one of you know, you're finding out stuff they didn't teach in high school, you know. But I got to tell you, thank god I had. I had seven murders to work, seven murder uh well that not murder. Yeah, seven momicides that Matterson was involved in,
including four that he was responsible for. And that was fascinating to be able to do, to go in beach with, you know, like, you're right, I'm writing about what's happening politically, et cetera, for for for people. But and then at that point, you know, you know, he's involved in a murder case, you know. And that's what really got to me, which is I had no way, you know, because again this is the real guy, not the guy from TV,
you know, and that's very important. Even though though this show was based on a book, they fictionalized most of that, you know. The only thing they didn't fictionalize was the portrayal. Betrayal was extremely accurate.
Now you write that June sixth, eighteen seventy one, Thomas Masterson bought an eighty acre farm in Sedgwick County, Kansas. And this is about fourteen miles northeast of Wichita, and that was a burgeoning Kansas cattle town at that time. Bartholomew or bat was eighteen at that time, you say, it was about five to nine, muscular, good looking guy. How did he acquire his education? This is what I thought was fascinating. Where did he get educated through?
As you write, well, again, that's what's so that's one that's really fascinating. He essentially was self educated. Now that is wherever whenever his parents were traveling, you know, earlier than that, you know, when he when he was let's say ten twelve, whatever, you know, you would you would expect that they would and there's no record of this, but you would expect that they would enroll in a local school, whether they were living in Missouri or Illinois,
because they lived in all these places. But what happened was, in some way, this guy uh decided to really educate himself and he became a vociferous reader. And and again it's it's it's incredible. The guy wound up having an incredible talent as a writer. And I'm not just saying that. I mean, I gotta tell you one I went down to the I had to go down to the New York Public Library on forty second Street in Manhattan to
find his columns. Dan, you know, because you know, I find a guy's columns and I'm reading and this is the first time I've been able to read his columns. Blew me away. I couldn't believe how talented he was as a writer. And also the fact that when he reported on Jack Johnson, who was the first African he was first black heavyweight champ of the world, well everybody else was wrote nay, nasty things about him, you know what I mean, you know, racial epithets. Not that Masterson.
He would describe Jack Johnson as Johnson or the Negro one of the two. That was it. And so I was that blew me way. And then when you start going a little bit further you find out how he stood up for people. You know, that part of it is really something. You know, how he stood up for people.
Let's get back to his beginnings though, when you talk about he's eighteen years old, and this is again super interesting in terms of this guy's buried background, what he ends up doing in his entire life. You say he ends up being a sports writer. It seems unlikely when you talk about this kind of beginning. You talk about he was a terrific shot. So what was a job that he and his brothers found that they could do and do well?
Well, what happened was the boy you're right, and yeah, what happened was in those days you have yet heard of buffalo growing across flames at the United States, And
they decided to become buffle hunter. And uh, there was nothing unusual about that in those days, especially considering that they were uh immigrants, because you know, there's there's not much much much difference between then and now, you know, a lot, you know, in terms of immigrants taking jobs that a lot of people don't want to take, you know, who've been here for a while, you know, So that
they became he became a buffalo hunter. He had to skin the animals, and he did all this, all this work with his brother, mostly with his brother Ed, sometimes his brother Jim as well. But what happened was.
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It was a terrific shot. He again, it was just the talent and so that as a result of that, he actually that's how he gets his nickname. Okay, this is real, as you said, his real name is William Bartholomew. But what happens is there had been a famous punter who his name was Old Bat. And what happened was Masterson has such a tremendous eye a hunter of people started calling him back, and from that point onward he
used and he used the name. And of course he did the other thing, which is he changed his middle name from uh Bartholomew to Barclay and and so now he's he's William Barclay Bat Masters, which again is like a what a lot of immigrants do, they reinvent themselves. That's exactly what he did. Mm hmm.
You say at the time he was he'd been shooting buffalo for a few years. But Masterson became a lifelong friend of a horse thief who would escaped jail and then on west to establish a new identity. This is a central figure in this incredible story of Bat Masterson, who is this lifelong friend It becomes established as a new identity.
Wyatter, it with Wider. He becomes friends with Wyatter, beneats him as a Buffalo, and again I was very surprised, you know. I you know, again, like most people, I believe, you know, like the TV series. We had a TV series called The Life and Legend of Wyat and I believed it. And of course, uh, not too long ago.
Oh you know, in the middle nineties, Kurt Russell did a Tombstone and while a lot of that will Tombstone was fairly accurate, okay in terms of what happened, uh, and also very accurate in terms of Earth's personality because he's a killer in that thing. But that's not the way that people have accepted Wyatt. They look at him as being the same as Masterson, a law officer, et cetera, et cetera. But it's a different story. But yeah, he was his good buddy, you know. And that was what's
so interesting also about it. It is like because of this this dotch City place, it's like everybody wound up there one way or the other. You know, you mentioned two of the other guys that wound up there, Frank and Jesse James. I mean, I cracked up when I was writing. It's a small scene, but I cracked up when Masterson has to confront ranked in Jesse. James, Oh, I just laughed at that. You know, it's just that it's all of these people. You know that he knew
and he knew everybody. That's the other thing, you know, because of his celebrity status. Man, that guy knew Masterson knew it.
You write in the book, which I find fascinating too, is that all of these things are interconnected. This buffalo hunt and we're talking about incredible numbers of buffalo killed every day and skinned and their carcasses left on the prairie. As you say, and again what you mentioned was that it was the immigrant. It wasn't a great job. These people were called stinkers because they stunk from doing this job. The idea that also politically, there was a reason for
this buffalo hunt and these buffalo hunters. What was the reason behind this incredible decimation of the buffalo on the plaines?
Oh boy, well, I'll explain it. Our government had decided that they wanted to get rid of the Indians, and the way they were going to get rid of the Indians was to destroy their source of food and clothing, which is the buffalo. So the idea is kill the buffalo, and eventually the Indians will will you know, will they'll leave or whatever. I don't know what they thought they were gonna do, you know, I don't know what they
thought they were gonna do. But they figured that that would get rid of them in one way or the other. Maybe they thought they started at that. I'm pretty sure they probably were thinking about that. I mean, they were really The cruelty is incredible, the cruelty that our government engaged in. But again, this is just you know, say, it's so part of history, I guess, right.
Yeah, you talk about Dodge City and the again the talk about the reservation system as well. I don't know, I mean, maybe a lot of people know this, but I mean what's always fascinating is these policies and what they did with the the tribes that were around this Dodge City, for example. Tell us a little bit about the government's efforts to be able to rain these people in on reserves and what was the alternative if they left the reserve?
Oh well, oh boy, oh boy? Uh yeah, well, what if the if the Indians left the reservation for any reason, they were considered federal fugitives and they would they would be tracked down and either captured or shot. That's the way that that was the that our government was treating the indigenous people of this nation.
Right.
And where it gets interesting for Masterson is that not only does he wind up as a buffalo hunter, of course, but later on becomes what they called an Indian fighter.
He's also what's considered a good scout as well, and also they understand his prowess with a rifle. He later says though that he doesn't actually believe I got we're getting ahead of ourselves, but he doesn't actually believe he he shot any Indians whatsoever.
Yeah, he was funny at one point where he was asked fat hunter oath in a simple case in New York City, and he said he was being at how many Indians he shot? And he went, well, I don't know that, don't don't don't blame me if I didn't shoot any That's basically what the guy said, you know, because he was in a situation where he was being attacked and he was with buffalo hunters and they opened firing, and sure it was hard to tell what happened. A good point, actually, it's a very good point.
How does bat get to this situation where he is recognized as a potential lawman and tell us a little bit more about Dodge City and also about his other cohorts. These famous legends of the West also seem to transform themselves into lawman. Tell us about this process that does this well and the new job for bat Masterson.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good really, that's a good question. What happens is he he has by the time he gets to Dodge City. And again we're talking about a very young man in his early twenties. He's already been an Indian fighter and a buffalo hunter, which means he's used to using a gun, but he's never shot a man.
Well that's actually, that's not quite true. He did. He shot his first man in uh when he when he was a buffalo hunter who was trying to who's he shot his first man who was uh shot who shot him and left him with with with a limp, which is where the game comes in. But when he comes to Dodge City, he's able to change. And I believe it's because he's able. He's able to change his career path.
And I think he's able to change it because of the fact that he has a very strong set of values and he decides to get into a law enforcement His friend erp helps him do it, and eventually he becomes a politician and runs through office. You know, people don't necessarily think of it that way, but when you run for sheriff, you're a politician. You know you're running for office. And while he was a trific sheriff, he was a lousy politician. He was very bad at politician.
You write about bat meeting Mollie, Oh gosh, he's twenty two at the time, she's younger, and this is January eighteen seventy six. They're unlikely couple. But tell us where they meet and what happens with the relationship, and before we introduce this corporal case.
Yeah, well, when they what happened. You know what happens is Masterson gets involved with it's a it's a it's a it's a new settlement called high Town, and he gets when he's when he's there, he winds up at the gaming tables, you know, just like in the movies, folks, and he's a gambler and there's a girl there. And it's unclear whether Molly was a prostitute or not, but she was a quote unquote dance hole girl. She worked in a local dance hole. And but they they they
fall in love. That part is is is very clear. And uh they wind up going into this dance hole, and uh, should I get the King?
Sure a little bit?
Sure, Well okay, well what happens is this is man, it's really something they knt gets drunk. King King is playing poker with Masterson doesn't like him for whatever reason. Uh, and and and he sees he's friendly with with with this woman, and he follows them into the dance hole, takes out his gun and goes bang. Masterson goes down with a bullet through uh the intestines and that's the one. Yeah, it's intestines and that's the one that leaves him with
the limp. But anyway, second time the guy's Masterson, he doesn't get a chance to shoot yet. He's on the floor and the guy decides to shoot again, and Molly throws herself in front of the bullet. I mean, it's a movie image. And that's when Masterson is able to get his gun hand free and he shoots this guy Sergeant Melvin A King and will eventually die. And the guy was an army gun, so it was but it was. It was a very It was the first time Masterson
shoots another human being. And I think what's interesting about it, Dan is we're talking, is as opposed to later in his career, he doesn't shoot the guy that quickly. And I think the reason he didn't is because he never shot a man. It's a completely different situation shooting a human being from shooting an animal. But he always always got that. He always got that, and he always valued human lives.
Yeah, you right too. What's interesting is that at the time there was so much fear of once they had surgery there there was no hygiene employed whatsoever, so people died as a result of the operation. Rather than saving their lives. In this particular case, they couldn't operate on him. And you say that saved his life even though he was seriously wounded. He all he ended up with was this obvious limp that he had forever and used a cane occasionally, which came to andy, right.
And and of course when I was writing about, you know, the lack of sepsis at that point, I reminded me of Garfield, who I you know, my Garfield book which I spoke to you about, because the same situation, the same situation. It's it's earlier, but it's it's the same situation. I mean, in those days, if somebody you know, operating on you, would you had a pretty good chance of dying from the guy he's operating on you because they
didn't wash their hands. So he was he was very very very very lucky that But yeah, I mean, you know, now, as she's saying it, I'm thinking, wow, he really lucked out.
A year before this happens, a year before bart Bat meets Mollie, before she dies, there's the Payeact. So we're going back a little bit. This is the first time you write this is President Ulysses Grant. This is the first immigration law to prohibit specific groups of immigrants the government claimed as undesirables. Who were those most people? And we will talk about the further immigration acts that are past and their impact and what that has to say
about it, and what does he do? Who did they ban first?
The Chinese?
M hm.
I mean it was basically what you see happening is racism, you know, racism, and but also what was interesting about it was the why of it, the why of it that I didn't realize that there are a lot of Chinese immigrants that were taking jobs from people on the West Coast. So the West Coasters didn't want those people here, you know, they want they didn't want him here, So it was to be a lot easier to just ban him.
But but yeah, yeah, and you know, by the way, were earlier when we were talking about the Mansterstons and where it came from, and the fact that they were Irish Catholics. Well, Catholic school also had a hard time in the United States for a lot of years. You know, we we unfortunately, we have this history.
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You talk about the wild Bill Hiccock again, another legend, and and the poker game where we get the idea of the dead man's hand. What happens? Tell us about this little story about wild Bill.
That's the last thing I expected you to ask me, But that's cool. What happens is this, This is dead his Deadwood, South Dakota, and wild Bill Hitcock is a former Pony Express writer. He's a former scout also like Masterson, and he becomes a gambler and which is what a lot of these guys did. And and he's sitting at a table with a guy whose name was Broken Nose Jack McColl. And he says something to McColl that McCole doesn't like. And what happens is McCole gets up, leaves
and but Hitcock. Unlike in the movies, he's not sitting with his back to the wall. He's like, you know, in the middle of the room. And this guy, this guy McColl comes up to him and shoots him and and and Hitcock falls over and it's poker hand comes out and it's a pokerhand of aces and eights. The dead Man San that's why, that's how it became known
as the dead Man. Yeah. It's amazing, isn't it. You know, these things happen, and you know, here we're talking about something you know in the eighteen I guess sixties, you know, and here we are today talking about it.
You right, that shortly after Hickock's murder, Wyatt and his brothers left Dodge City for Deadwood to make some money. Yeah, and they stopped off at Sydney, Nebraska. This is a September eighteen seventy six, and Wyatt ran into his old friend Bat and Wyatt was an assistant city Marshal of Dodge City, talk about a reinventing yourself, Ford County, Kansas, and he said, he said to Bat, it pays a lot better than buffalo hunting. And there weren't really many
buffalo left anyway. So so tell us about this what he makes him a deputy and so what are some of the things that happened shortly after in their duty in Dodge City.
Well, what happens is, Yeah, what happens is Masterson goes to Dodge City and he still has his cane. At that point, he's still using the cane, and he becomes known for using the cane to stop up strepperous bad uh bad, you know, bad guys. There's a thing called buffaloing, which is when somebody takes a six gun and puts it on your head, and that became very good at that as opposed to shooting the person, Masterson preferred using
the cane. But while while he's in Dodge City, Uh, he and are getting Wow, they involved in quite a few situations where they've got to take their gun out and they've got to track down bad guys and stuff like that.
Yeah, you talk about his brothers too. Masterson's brothers, Ed and Jim, and they follow him into law enforcement as well.
Yes, oh boy, yes. And it's interesting because Jim is younger. Ed is the oldest brother, and they follow him into law enforcement. And Ed has a different kind of personality from Masterson. Ed is a much more of a oh, I don't know if the gregarious sort.
He he he.
Doesn't have the same level of oh, you know, the he doesn't seem as serious about it being being being a cop as Bad and that actually proves to be a problem. And go on, Well, what happens is Ed tries to stop Ed is one of Bad's deputies, and he tries to stop some guys who are drunk. They have to have a lawn in Dodge City, which is you're not allowed to carry a handgun beyond a certain point.
And what happens is these two guys who are drovers from Texas, they get drunk, which US never goes with guns.
Not thinkers changed that way. And what happens is it tries to disarm these two, these these guys, and instead one of them turns the gun on him and shoots him and sets his shirt on fire from the muzzle blast, and it just and it happens purely by coincidence that Masterson at that point is approaching the saloon with his occurag and so he actually sees his brother go down, and he takes out his gun and he shoots Stead
the two guys that had shot his brother. And I mean, it's well, what's again, What's what's fascinating about it is there were a couple of other individuals that hung out with the two bad guys, the two pillars of Ed Masterson, and later on Mascisson arrests them, and he's in a situation where he could easily have shot these guys. And people would have said, that's fine because his brother Ed was very well liked, and so is Masterson. But he
didn't do it. He did the right thing. You let him go because there was no evidence they were involved. That's pretty interesting, you know, I can tell you right away, wide up would never do that.
You talk about that becoming interested in writing letters to the editor, and I guess getting responses. So he thinks, why not, why don't I start a newspaper, the Vox POPULARI yet in Dodge City eighteen eighty four. Tell us a little bit about this paper, what it consisted of, and what kind of success it enjoyed.
Well, he does. It's essentially one issue. Okay, so it's not successful. But what he learns is he writes. He writes a newspaper that rails. Basically, it's editorialized, and it rails against various politicians, rails against the local editor that doesn't like him. But it really gives me what Masterson a background injury. He learns a little bit, not a little bit, he learns a lot. And I suppose the most important thing not I suppose the most important thing
is he learns he's a writer. And that's pretty interesting because I had the same experience. I didn't know I was a writer until I was twenty three. I thought everybody could put words on page the way I. You need some experience to change it, or you need somebody to encourage you. So in the answer says case, he starts a newspaper and he finds he really enjoys writing. He enjoys writing, and he enjoys it a heck of a lot more than being a wallman.
You talk about the other you write about the other things that interest this fascinating guy, bat Masterson is that in he heads to Denver and he's interested in gambling. There's no gambling in New York State, it's illegal. But he's in gambling parlors and we're talking about twenty five dealers and up to two hundred players in this Denver's Palace theater and gambling parlor. This is where he meets
Emma Moulton. She was performing there. Tell us a little bit about this relationship and what happens as a result of these two people.
Well, this, it's that's what's interesting. This is the third No, this is the Yeah, this is the this is the second big relationship in his life with Emma Moulton and Emma Emma, it was a uh, she she juggled Indian clubs. She was known as the Queen of clubs. Okay, and but she's a she's so she's a performer and they meet it and they really do fall in love. I mean,
it's it's it's it's but she's married. She's married to a guy, and so it's going to take a while for that to to fade, you know, where she's going to divorce the guy. And but while in Denver with Emma and doing this, that's really where Masterson gets into boxing and I had no idea that these old West lawmen. And it wasn't just Masterson. Erp was involved in boxing too.
They got involved in professional boxing for various reasons. But it's and so Denver is the place that he gets involved with Emma and he gets involved in boxing, and he gets another opportunity to try a column for a local paper, which he really digs about boxing.
Yeah, you talk about it. Almost at the same time or in eighteen ninety four, big things happen in government. There's the William Henry Harrison president. He favors tariffs, and of course his opponent doesn't, but he got Congress to pass uh so, and the cleveland was that the person that he was versus and didn't I didn't agree with the tariffs. Also with the tariffs. Interestingly comes new immigration law and you write that this is the first time
that there are mass deportations in US history. Yes, tell us a little bit about that.
Well, this is what this is. That's that's the part. That's just so, you know, it was so fascinating to me because of what's happening today and what which What I learned was that whatever you know, they always they always have a different name for the Immigration Bureau, whatever you want to call it, but let's just say the immigration Bureau, okay. And what they did was they kept tightening up the the uh immigration regulations. Uh. You know what, Dan,
it's it's ex fact. I was just I'm glat to mention that because I mean, I have a friend whose daughter is uh is epileptic, and Emma Masterson was epileptic. Well, guess what our government decided to ban anybody who had epilepsy from coming to this country.
Right.
They did all kinds of stuff like this. I mean, you know, it's like I'm sitting here, I'm shaking my head. It's like, who are these people? You know? You know, and you know, I'll tell you something. What's really interesting is when when I looked at all these presidents and you mentioned Cleveland and so forth. In Masterson's time, of course, the guy that stands out is Abraham Lincoln. I mean, he spoke out against these people, and I always say, the same thing, where are these people today?
You know?
But you know, seriously, it's just what our government was doing was just awful. I mean just awful. I mean, and you know, it's just wow.
Yeah, you talk about Batt working at New York in New York that the Morning Telegraph. Oh and then in nineteen oh one, this is another fascinating things. He's good friends with. He becomes good friends with Teddy Roosevelt, the President of the United States, the youngest president at forty three years old. Yes, and he's working with he's working with the publisher Alfred Henry Lewis, and who had written a lot of books about and articles about the Old
West himself, particularly the gunfighter legend. So then he wants to put a good word in. Tell us about this good word Teddy Roosevelt. And the offer that's offered Bat Masterson.
Wow, oh boy, Okay, Well, what happens is there's an opening in the federal government for a the the mark to be the marshall of the state of Oklahoma. Well, this guy Lewis talks to his buddy tr Teddy Roosevelt says, listen, why don't you ask my buddy Masterson to do it. He's cool, he'll do it, he's great. And so he had so tr asks Masterson to do this, and Masterson
turns it down. And when I had his turn down, I mean the guy turns down the President of the United States and he turns it down and I'm reading this and I'm going, what's this about? And then somebody, somebody, a friend mindset to me, Fred, why don't you check and see if the federal marshal has to be confirmed
by the Senate. Well, that's the case. Masterson knew he could never get through the Senate because they find out he was an illegal alien, and so he turns TR down, at which point tr TR decides to appoint Masterson Deputy Federal Marshal of the Southern District of New York. Folks, wherever you're listening, I know Barry Collins is in Scotland.
Wherever you're listening, I got to tell you something. Okay, what we're saying here is bat Masterson, who was the sheriff of Dodge City Fort Towny, Kansas, which included Dodge. We're saying he was the he was a deputy Federal Marshal of New York City, of New York City, and people knew who he was. And he's doing this at the same time as he's being a reporter, which means we got ourselves a reporter walking around with a gun.
The interesting thing is why he accepted that and why it worked out. You don't explain really why, but you know bat knew very well why he denied the first job offer, but this came with no confirmation process, so he was able to take that easily. So he has a prestigious job, important job, but most important, nobody knows the secret. Let's get to this murder at Big Goose Lake, because this is the thing that's the most fascinating part of his story. He does all kinds of other reporting.
Of course, the sports reporting is fascinating because it's analysis he finds and discovers, of course as a good reporter, that some of these fights are fixed. So that's another fascinating aspect of his career. But this really defines so much about him is his murder at Big Moose Lake. Give us the background about this Chester Gillett and Miss Grace Brown.
Okay, this is what would become known as the first trial of the twentieth century, long before OJ Okay, And what happens here is this This this fellow named Chester Gillette, who comes from a fairly well well family, but he's on the wrong side and he's working at a managing a factory for his uncle in Herkimer in New York. Well, no, it wasn't Herkimer. He's nearby Herkimer, but but Herkimer is the county. Okay. The point is he meets a girl named Grace Brown, and whether or not they fell in
love is anybody's guess. What isn't well, yeah, what isn't is that she gets pregnant with his child and he uh he and she's really upset because she wants to get married, you know, because in those days that's you know, it's a different situation. Well, I don't know how much has things changed whatever. Anyway, So what happens is he decides Chester Ji left. Oh boy, and I was thinking about you, Dan when I went to Herkimer. What happened is he decided he's going to take uh Grace on
a lake, Big Moose Lake. They're going to go voting. Now here's the thing. The I've gone to Herkimer where where Chester's let would later be tried, and it would. But Big Moose Lake is about seventy miles north in the Appalachian Mountains. And I'm talking. I've been in almost every state, Dan, and quite a few of the quite a few of the provinces. This was the most isolated place I've ever been to in my life. It would
be no question if you want it. But but I but before I went there, when I, when I've been the place where he subsequently was tried, I said to my I said to myself, wait a second. I got to drive seventy miles north into no into the No Place in order to find, you know, find this place. But if I'm going to write about the murder, I got to find out where the heck this happened, so that I, you know, I can. I've got some authority.
So I drove up there, okay, and I looked around, took pictures, and and then I I in a certain way, I sort of compared what happened to I certainly compared it to the book that was written about it, an American tragedy by Dreiser in the movie A Place in the Sun with Liz Taylor monty Cliff. But what got me was the fact that bat Masterson covered the case. His editor assigned him to go up to the trials. In other words, what happens is I should explained that
the woman dies. She she allegedly is thrown overboard by Chester Gillette Grace Brown. But there's there's very little physical evidence to show that it's just a supposition. And Grace had actually written quite a few notes that where she talked about suicide. So Masterson goes to cover the trial in herker, New York. I can't tell you what it was like walking the same davement that my idol dick.
It was incredible. And I got into the same courtroom where the trial took place where Chester Gillette was tried for killing Grace Brown and was convicted and sentenced to the electric chair. And what happens uh during the during the the the juries being out considering the verdict, Dan
the mock forms a mob, and there's Bat Masterson. Holy moly, I mean Bat Masterson and and and what happens is Masterson then writes an article about it where he's he calls the headline is new style lynch law in upstate New York, which gets him in a lot of trouble with with the with the court.
Mm hmm, I mean he felt.
Good.
He felt that that the threat of the mob lynching Gillette affected the verdict completely. He said in print, he said there would have been no other verdict other than this verdict because of the effect of that lynch mob on the case.
Boy, you're right, I mean, yes, I'm glad you pointed that out. That's exactly what happened. So he felt he felt it was it was a it was he felt it was the wrong verb for that for a lot of reasons. But that was the main reason these people were the fury was intimidated into convicting the guy.
You say, there was a couple other irregularities and also in the trial that that Baton noticed and noted. Now, as a result of this criticism, what happened to his publisher and himself This is another incredible part of this What what happened?
Well, what happened. What happened was I'm not sure if it was the first but the judge who turned out wanted to run for higher office. He didn't like the fact that the master standing, who was a big celebrity, was criticizing him in the New York paper. So he thought Masterson and his publisher in contempt of court. Now, obviously that wouldn't hold up in the Supreme Court because
of the First Amendment. But rather than but but what happens is the the the the the judge sense of the sheriff from Herkimer County down to New York to arrest Masterson and his publisher and take him back up to a hearing in front of him and Herkimer. And and that's exactly what happens. And rather but rather than take the case to the Supreme Court, which of course would have cost a lot of money, they just decided to pay a fifty dollar fine and and that and
that's what happens. But well, I'll tell you what was so fascinating about it was not just the fact that the judge tried this. All the newspapers covered it. It wasn't just in Masterson's Morning Telegraph. I mean the New York Times, thank god for the New York Times. You know,
you can read about this. And it's in the book, you know, where I write about this, and that the all these papers covered the fact that Masterson was and you know, was found you know, in contempt of court whatever, you know, whatever the heck the guy called it.
It didn't you say, you write that it didn't hurt him his journalistic reputation. But what's even more fascinating too, is that how the you know, talk about trial by press. These guys in in uh in sync with the recently released novel Dracula, a bestseller in eighteen ninety nine. How do they depict this, this Chester Gillette and this crime.
Well, Chester Gillette was depicted as as a as a vampire. It was very interesting. He was basically depicted that way by the press across the United States. I can tell you that it started with the local press there in Herkimer, New York. And he he was just depicted as being, you know, Dracula. He was depicted as being Dracula. And this is before Bella looked Goosie but the move but the book was out and uh geez, come to think,
I guess Frentstein wouldn't work. But he certainly was like Dracula, no question.
Yeah. Was what I found interesting in this is did bat Masterson as a journalist. He didn't come out and say guilt one way or another. He just as a proper journalist, had issues with with a defense team that was breaking the rules of disclosure or at some of the again irregularities that were allowed by the judge Devonport.
Oh the pro accution was, oh man, they did something to give an idea about an irregularity. I've never seen this.
Uh.
As we said earlier, Grace Brown was pregnant. What did they do? Yeah, they took the fetus from her body and put it into finale the hide and brought it into into court as evidence. Excuse me, you know that that that has no probative value appropriati excuse me. But but but there were those kinds of irregularities.
And uh, how about the body? How about the body in the corner? They sidestepped that process.
Oh boy, the body, Oh boy, they they Oh boy, they sent the body. Boy, the body was embombed before the carner got ahold of it. And even in those days, they knew that could destroy evidence. Mm hmm, they didn't. You know, this is this is the kind of case that today would never hold up. Boom, it's it's it's it be out. You know, it would never hold up. But they got away with it. They got away with it because there was so much press against Jillette. That's
the reason they got away with it. People wanted this guy to die.
Bat though, did think that he was not a killer. So what did bat Masterson suppose happened that day with this woman that was distraught she had been separated from this her manager, boss, her lover, and had written these letters that were foremost in the in the trial, all these hearts felt letters. But she also said many times in those letters that she wanted to die? Could she die? Talking about obviously suicidal thoughts. So what did bat Masterson
think happen? Because you he talks about that his attorney, Chester's attorney had said that he was a coward, moral coward. So what do you think bat Masterson thought had happened? Rather than the official line.
I think that what that thought happened was that when they went out on the boat, Grace Brown was clearly very upset, and he thought that she had gone overboard on her own. She just had gotten up and went in. And it's funny actually because when I watched that scene in the film and Place in the Sun nineteen fifty two to Even's film, that's basically the way they do it, which is interesting. They actually got that right, which it so so in other words, in other words, what we're
saying here is there's no direct evidence of murder. They tried to the prosecution tried to say that some of her hair that was found at the bottom of the boat occurred because he knocked her down or something. Oh yeah, that was the other thing she almost forgot. I feel like Colombo, uh I almost forgot. He the prosecution's theory about how did he how did Chester to let kill her? He hit her with his tennis racket? I mean, and which which Again, when I read that, I just went,
this is ridiculous. Who killed somebody with a tennis racket? It's ridiculous, you know. And they they weren't able to prove that any bruises on her were from a tennis record or anything else, but that's what they piled the jury, and the jury bought it well apparently board it.
Well. Like I say, after that he was sued. They gave him a small fine. It was fifty dollars. It was the pragmatic thing to do for bat even though he hated to admit anything, to say he was guilty of anything that he certainly wasn't. You talk about other relationships like Damien running that's essential in his in his legacy.
But you talk about Teddy Roosevelt, and he had backed William Howard taft h taft one and Teddy Roosevelt had this last reception and he invited bat Masters to come because their friends and they mean a lot to each other. What does that do?
Bet decided not to go, and it's that was I was trying to figure that one out. And I make a supposition in the book that because he was friends with the guy, but it's but what I noticed is that Masterson stayed away from situations where he was in crowds where people would question him about things because he had something to hide. You know, he had something to hide.
I mean, one of the things I tried, you know, I looked at very closely is whether or not he might have told the tr that he was an alien. But I realized very quickly that if he'd done that, TR would have reported him.
So it.
So when he decided not to go to to to Teddy Roosevelt's last lunch, and I think it was more because he just didn't want to socialize with people. He was afraid that you know, you just I guess you just never't know. I mean, to me, the guy seems Masterston seems like he was very cautious personally, and he was very cautious personally and in his relationships with people. You know, one of the.
Go ahead go ahead, you'll go ahead.
No, I was just gonna say. I was just gonna say. One of the things I found interesting was that later in his life he doesn't have anything to do with Wyatter, who's still alive. I found that really interesting that it was a diversion, not a diversion. A there's a dichotomy between these people because they're always put together. But in his life there was certain one or two points where he could have used their Helpie didn't you know layer On, He didn't call them. And when I say call them,
I mean call them. You know, we had phones.
Then there's so much that historically that happens in these short few years that bat Masterson is an integral part of American history, include the Man Act of nineteen ten, and also it's it's demonstrated by a particular event in boxing that that Masterson is involved with and comments on and finds it important obviously because of this historical importance. And this is this, Uh, Jack Johnson and accused by a woman of kidnapping her daughter and bringing her across
state lines. Woodrow Wilson is the president at the time. You call him a racist president? Uh, tell us about this frame up of Johnson and what massol and rights and concludes, Well, the thing is.
Oh, yeah, it's a lot, boy, that's that's that's a lot. What happens is, uh, the Man Act is is a federal law still in effect as far as I know, that prevents a person, a guy, well, a person from taking another person, of course, across state line purpose of sex. So Johnson goes across state lines with this woman who I think he later marries her. Okay, but the government goes after him. Wilson goes after him, and Wilson's Justice
department goes after him, find and finds him guilty. And at this point he's a heavyweight champ of the world. Finds him guilty of violating the Man Act. And what happens He's got to leave the country and and so he leaves the country and he winds up, winds up finally fighting jess Willard in Cuba of all places, and that covers the trial. And what's really really interesting about it is that it's written the way it's written down
in history is that Willard knocks out Johnson. Okay, Well, what really happens is at some point Jackson's on on the on the I was gonna say payment on on the canvas. He looks up at the sun because this
is outside, and he shields his eyes. But meanwhile he's talking back and forth with his wife who's sitting ringside, okay, and Masterson notices this, And basically what Masterson notices is and Jack Jack Johnson will later confess that he threw the fight that he'd pay off, and Masterson was basically noticing how this went down. That's what I find so interesting about the guy As a journalist, Dan, he really paid attention, unlike a lot of journalists today.
Yeah, he also write that it was fascinating too that at that point when he looked up to block the sun, he was supposed to be incapacitated on on the mat, but he had been waiting for his wife to signal him because he wouldn't throw that fight till he knew his wife had that money. And I think they shirked them on the money anyway, But or if they didn't, they waited to the twenty six unbelievable, the twenty sixth round, and by all accounts, he was winning this fight easily.
Was just wasn't even obviously wasn't trying too hard. But he was ahead technically until this moment where he was knocked out apparently.
And you know what, the best is the best. I'm sorry to interrupted, but the best is uh, there's he can put this in a book. But there's video of it, this video. You can watch the video. You can see it. I mean you can see it. And then of course the other point is that john as we say, as you mentioned, Johnson's found guilty of the Man Act, he wasn't cleared until twenty eighteen when President Trump what do
you call it, overturned the conviction. Yeah, and that happened in in fact, that happened in twenty eighteen as I was upstate, doing well, upstate New York doing the research. But yeah, I mean it's something.
Yeah, you write that in nineteen nineteen Woodrow Wilson, he's they're looking at Canadians illegally in the US. He wants to defend the northern northern US in case Canadians invade. So that's how much we didn't go through all of the changes in the Immigration Act. But now there's more and more people that are added to the list, added to the categories that are considered undesirables and not allowed in the US.
It's not true.
Yes, yes, but I I Dan when I read that, I was thinking about you. I was feeling, does Dan know that that that that they wanted to repel a Canadian? And I've never heard of anything as stupid in my life, you know what I mean. It's just incredibly stupid. And again it proved it's not Pruve's. It shows how foolish our presidents can be.
Certainly, certainly we talked about Damon Runyon and they met and he was that was an idol of his journalistically, you right, yes, and so as a result, and there was another person named Stuart Lake was also influenced by that as well. What does this amount to later in terms of Runyan's reporting on the Old West, his writing, I'm not reporting writing about the Old West?
Well, well, Ryan, what Runyan does? He decides to use Masterson as a character and and and and and a short story that he writes which becomes Guys and Dolls, the famous word Way musical, and the character in the show in the short story and then later in the show is called Sky Masterson. Gee, you think there's a similarity there. So that's that's the first. That's the first thing. The other thing is that you mentioned Stuart Lake, that oil boy Stuart Lake was was a newspaper or a
colleague of Masterson's. He worked on another paper, and later on he goes to Hollyweird and becomes uh good friends with Wyatt Irb and writes IRB's biography, which is fictionalized.
Sure see that.
That's the point, which is that the twentieth century and twenty first consent, twentieth and twenty first century conception of wired Earp is from a fictionalized biography. And I'll just say also that I was just shocked when I found out Lake was still alive in the late fifties when they did the TV series The Life and Legend of Wire Up and he was technical advisor, which means there I am sitting at home watching this thing and it's full fiction, you know, I mean, it's it's interesting again
because of how these people were. You know, there's an overlapping that people don't understand in history, people's lives overlap. Sure, you know what I mean. I mean, it's it's I mean, the book is my book is being published tomorrow quickly. But that's October twenty fifth, and that's the ninety eighth anniversary of Masterson's death.
Yes, absolutely, I was going to say in nineteen twenty one what we did skip was just one important fact. When they were trying to malign Bat Masterson and his career and his contributions, they said they had a I guess a well mentioned rumor of how many people they said we killed, And do have this dramatic part in court where he has to say he has to ask the question when somebody asked him how many people he's killed, tell us the truth versus this rumor. And Bat's interesting responses at court.
To this innaleegation, Well, he basically goes it involved a legal fase, and he's in court and he's been questioned by Benjamin kark Those though, who becomes a Supreme justice, Supreme Court justice, and he asks him all about the people that he killed, and he says he tells the truth. He says, there were four people and three people and then the fourth died from wound suffered as a result
of his gunshot. But it contradicts a story that had been written about him by a newspaper reporter that said he killed like eighteen people, which was all a bunch of crap. You know, this is why you know, the truth is indeed stranger than fiction here, I mean, the fact is Oh and also, you know, when he's asked about the Indian fighting, he's so funny, Masterson. He says, you can't blame me if I didn't hit any of them.
Yeah, the guy because he was supposed to be an Indian hunter with so many they depicted in the newspaper, or at least one newspaper that had it in for him to say that he had killed twenty three and how many Indians, and he had shot these people in the back, so drunken Mexicans and Indians, and he shot him in the back. And that really outraged Bat Masterson.
Yeah, he was this this fight manager who he'd exposed claiming that he made his reputation shooting Mexicans and Indians in the back. And that's when Masterson just said, that's it, I'm not you know, And that's when he sued. And again, what I loved is the fact that he goes up against the future Supreme Court justice and beats them at his own game.
That's pretty good, you righte, That he continued to write and continued to have an audience and B six Bestful. October twenty fifth, nineteen twenty one, Bat got to the Morning Telegraph, went up to his office and sat at a desk and to catch up on all the recording. He said, he had a cold. So what happened to him that day? And tell us as you write in this people discovering him at his desk.
Well, he had a cold, and a guy from the next book, as one of his colleagues, came in and asked him how he was doing. He said, fine, whatever, And then the next thing you know, the guy comes back in and there's Matison slumped over his typewriter, dead from a heart attack. And at that point his death becomes it's certainly national news. I can't say it was international, I don't know, but it becomes national news. It's all
over the place. It's covered by every newspaper. I mean, I find when I look at something, you know, when you look at the New York Times, you know what I mean, it's like whoa you know? And so it was front page news, and it was, you know, the guy was considered to be He really was a legend in his own time.
You write that there was misinformation right at the end that he was writing and what he wrote, because I was fascinating to people, this incredibly influential journalist. What was he writing when he died right at his desk, And so it really wasn't true what he did wrote, right, But you include in this book many of the writings of that so he can get a feel of his character, sense of humor, just the way he wrote.
Right.
But he talks about in this last paragraph and I'll just read it. Yet, there are those that argue that everything breaks even in this old dump of a world of ours. I suppose those ginks that argue that way hold that because the rich man gets ice in the summer and the poor man gets it into winter, things are breaking even for both. Maybe so, But I'll swear I can't see it that way.
Yes, you know that that that got me. He's so he's just a good writer. Frankly, you know, I feel like I got a lot to live up to here. And he writes that, and then he writes but but that's not the last thing he writes. He goes on to write about some some boxer, and but what's fascinating to me, Oh, God, is the fact that it just happened. I'll just tell you, Dan, it happened by accident. Oh two years ago. It was a hurricane that hit the Houston, you know, in the Gulf of Mexico, right, and my
and my mother, who's ninety nine years old. I'm her caretaker. She says to me. One day, she says, h Fred bat Masterson's there mentioned in the newspaper. I went what she said. He's mentioned newspaper, So I figured my mother must be you know, she's going you know, sure enough,
what happened? What happened? Dan. It turns out there was a columnist for the Washington Post who quoted what you just said, what Masterson wrote point, the point being that the people in Houston were going to that didn't have money, were going to get hurt by the hurricane, and so things don't break even in the world. And this, you know, I just found it so but fascinating to me that a reporter for the Washington Post would even know this. But it said something about the man's words. They stood
the test of time. You talk, are you right?
That when he died, and it was it was very positive and in his death, his legend, his his appraisal, people's appraisal of him as a journalist and a man. Yeah, but they also put that there's place of birth. I believe it was in Illinois. Yes, When did it surface that he was the first Dreamer?
Well, what happened was I had been wanting to do a book about that Masterson, as I've said for many years, and I was going to do something on him in twenty and sixteen, and for some reason it didn't sell, which turned out to be one of the luckiest things that ever happened to me, because I just kept looking, can't. I had a feeling that he was holding something back, you know what I mean? And I it was just a feeling, you know, Dan, you get a feeling as
a journalist. And so I did some research on his background and at that point, again I'm going back two to three years, there really wasn't very much written about at that point about him coming from Quebec. And I found somebody online who'd written something who claimed to be a distant relative, and this person claimed that Masterson was illegal. Well, I don't have to tell you he reads something online.
You got to prove it, right. So I was able to use the I went online and was able to use the Mormon website, which is the best when it comes to researching person's background. Next thing, you know, I was able to find everything on the Masterson's regarding what they what they did, as far as what they said, what Masterson said on these these census forms where he lied every single time. And I was also able eventually to track down his birth certificate in Quebec.
Incredible.
Yeah, it was really something, you know, but but you know, but thank god we have these resources and we've got people have kept records, you know. But I got to tell you something. When I found out that Masterson was a dreamer, I was blown away. I'm still blown away, Yes, I mean I'm still blown away. I mean it's I'm going to assume he's the only dreamer on a well, he's the only illegal immigrant on a US stamp.
I could be wrong, but I'm you know, yeah, Fred, I want to thank you and congratulate you on Bat Masterson. It's been fascinating. It's an incredible book. You can't put it down. It's so fascinating and Bat Masterson is revealed to be one of the most fascinating characters in American history and a very important one. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about bat Masterson,
the First Dreamer. For those people that might want to take a look at this book, tell us where this they might take a look, who publishes this, and where they might go to look at your other.
Pasture, which is uh, the work is thank you sir that the book is being published by R. J. Parker Publishing. It's available either at his website or just by going to Amazon dot com. It's available in both print and ebook.
Fantastic and all they have to do is go look up Amazon dot com and see other all your other fascinating books that we've all covered on True Murder. I want to thank you very much, Fred Rosen, It's been an absolute pleasure. You have a great evening, Dan.
I just want to say you have been so helpful and so supportive. Thank you sir for having me come on and discuss this and all my other books. I appreciate it.
It's been a real privilege Fred. Thank you very much. If you have a great event, I hes