ANGELS OF DEATH-Emily Webb

he was working, killing eleven patients. These stories will make you wary and leave you shaking your head in horror. The book that we're featuring this evening is Angels of Death, disturbing real life cases of nurses and doctors that kill, with my special guest, journalist and author Emily Webb. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very very much for greeting this interview, Emily Webb, thanks.

You call him Satan's Son, and the last episode of December was Charles Graber, and he wrote a book called The Good Nurse about Charles Cullen and very very interesting variant of the serial killer that we all have come to know. Again, it's a customary question, but of all the kinds of stories that you could handle in true crime, why did you want to do a book about these types of killers in Angels of Death.

the early nineteen nineties when she was a nurse. They think that she had Munchausen's by proxy. That she's now in a secure psychiatric facility, one of England's hospitals for the criminally insane, I guess. And I was thinking of her case, and then I thought, well, why don't I investigate whether there's enough cases for a book. And I was actually quite surprised to see there really was a lot of cases of healthcare serial killing. I think the

term is doctors and nurses. I was thinking of nurses, and then I thought, well, I'll incorporate doctors and other related professionals.

really condensed stories of this new type of horror. In the second story that you have, you talk about Roger Dean from Sydney, so in Australia, he's thirty five years old, and his murder weapon is a little different, or his murder one of his murder weapons a little different. And we're talking about in twenty and eleven when he was finally noticed. So let's talk about Roger Dean from Sydney nursing home that he was working at.

But Roger Deine was a registered nurse so he could give out the I guess the more serious medications that have to be locked away. So he worked in a nursing home. He was actually studying to be a lawyer in his spare time, so he was looking to do a career change. But what Roger Deine did was he caused a fire that ended up completely ripping through this age care home in a Sydney suburb and a lot

of people died. So whether or not he intended to do that, what happened once he ended up, you know, a math murderer.

painkillers but are highly addictive. So he was addicted to those drugs, He was using those drugs and he was stealing them from the locked cabinet in the nursing home, so it's obviously illegal. What happened was this had been detected, so at handover on the shift the day before the nursing home fire, it was mentioned at handover, which is where the nurse on one particular shift hands over the notes to the next nurses to let them know what's happening.

So I've mentioned that this was detected and the police were coming. So the police came that night and had started to ask questions, but they got diverted on a different matter. It was a final family violence matter that was far more pressing at the time. So Roger Dean he knew he was in trouble. He knew he was going to get found out. If he was found out,

that means the end of his nursing career. But also he would not be able to become a lawyer, and there was CCTV footage of showing him over previous times going in and out of that. I guess it was a locked room where you go to get the drugs, so that's where the CCTV comes in. So basically what happened is that he knew that he was going to get caught, and so he decided to light fire to

divevote attension from that. So, I guess in a terrible way to put it, but to take the heat off himself and put a bit more focus on maybe, well why did this fire start? You know, what's happened, and so maybe his crime would go unnoticed. But it ended up a lot worse than he intended.

was very conscious of what was going on. So tell us with him, knowing that the CTD the video cameras were not in the A two wing, what did he do and tell us about the two Dorothys and Helen Perry.

happen then, you know, potentially killing them. So this fire triggered the fire alarm. So everything's you know, it's hectic, like what the footage that I've seen on the news at the time and the photo that just shows a complete confusion, all these elderly people just looking so shocked. You know, he's breathing up her artuses on and so Roger then pretended to try and you know, get these

women out of the room. He heard their cries. Actually, sorry, a woman called Helen Perry had said to Roger Dean, I'm trying to get my remember the whole story here. He stopped to help her out, to leave her. So the two Dorothys were in their room. You know, they may have been asleep, they may have been screaming for help. Then he heard this lady Helen Perry calling for help, and she also really wanted him to try and help

save the two Dorothys. The the fire had taken hold in that room and there really was no chance that they would have been able to get out by themselves. And he had told this lady Helen not to worry. People were on their way to help them. And they, you know, these women, you know, were not able to be saved. So this lady, missus Perry, Helen Perry, she survived, and she spoke to newspapers afterwards and had said that,

you know, the scene of a war zone. There were people everywhere, and she was quite distressed that she tried to save her friends and they weren't able to be saved. And I think that went a long way to showing the intent behind Roger Dene's actions. Even though he may not have intended to harm that many people, it was quite calculating in what he did.

incriminating to himself. Why he wanted to get them. Then they actually asked Roger den if he could help them, you know, open the door, and he did and then removed the drug walls from the cabinet and he put it in a statuel that he had and he I guess they'd wanted him to stay around because he was a staff member, but he actually lived quite nearby, and he kept saying to them, I'm an asthmatic, I need

my ventelin, I need to go home. Well, the reason he wanted to go home, according to the court documents, was that he wanted to destroy those drug books, get rid of them.

you know, I'm Roger. I'm one of the nurses and there was a fire and I just quickly did what I can got everyone out and the smokey's just overwhelming, but you know, we've got a lot of people out, so that's the main thing. So for a while he was portrayed as, you know, someone who had helped, and that footage became quite disturbing. Later on as the real story.

vig that showed that. Well, there was also a video that showed Dean entering the rooms, so that was a timeline fit for the fire what you were talking about at the at the trial. But tell us tell us a little bit more how Dean French got involved because apparently they weren't going to charge him, So how did how did it get to the point where he gave testimony against his person he was intimately involved with for a fair amount of time.

habiting but not really in a committed relationship. I believe that the police were going to let him off, but you might have it more fresh in your memory because you've just read it.

is not protocol. So Roger Deane would have been, I guess the nurse in charge at that time because he was a more a registered nurse, and maybe the other nurses were enrolled nurses, so it would not be standard practice to say both of you go on your break. But he did that so he could go and do what he did, which was light the fire. So he was arrested and in the recorded interview with detectives he seemed to be calm and he seemed to give them

pretty frank answers. But he actually told the police that he felt like Satan had possessed him and was telling him what to do. He you know, I'm not sure if the police believed him at that point or not, if they thought maybe that was a way he was trying to get them to think that he was mentally unwell. I mean, he was a drug addict. He was addicted to the opiates that he was stealing. But he said to them that he thought that Satan told him that it's the right thing to do, and he took her

to the police. I know you won't believe it, but that's what happened.

access to drugs at that nursery home. Now in you include just in the same chapter nineteen seventy six case in Chicago with Denise Watson, and she was charged with a similar arson and murder of twenty three if she admitted to sixty nine counts, but she was the murder of twenty three. Tell us just a little bit about that and why you included that case of Denise Watson from Chicago.

with this case because so Denise. Denise was a twenty one year old nurse assistant and housekeeper, so I'm guessing she probably wasn't really doing too much nursing duties, more looking after people, maybe feeding them. And she worked in this nursing home in Chicago, and she started a fire that killed twenty three people, and she admitted that she

did it. That she dropped a match into a pile of clothes that was in a patient like a little locker, like a little cupboard that they having in the hospital. And at the time, you know, all the residents were frail, they weren't able to move around properly. And there were a number of residents to her in the nursing home chapel at the time celebrating mass and they were obviously if you can imagine the scene and the fact that most deaths from fires come from smokinghalation, it would have

been absolute chaos. So these people were really struggling to evacuate, and most of the deaths from that nursing home flyer came from shock and smoking relation. And also back in the seventies, they probably weren't as great health and safety measures. It didn't have a sprinkler system, so that was something that was highlighted after this incident. But what was interesting is once the police started to look into this incident, they found that this Denise Watson actually had a bit

of a history of pyromania. In fact, one officer in a newspaper Artiquai found said she had a bad history of pyromania, and she actually had been one of the flymen who was involved as an art and investigator recognized her name and he'd actually had dealings with her before she had there'd been a fire at the house where she lived in which was declared art and by investigators.

That was three years before, in nineteen seventy three, and then in nineteen seventy four there are actually three small fires in her apartment that they believed were started by now Polish remover, so she had a bit of a history of doing things. And actually, interestingly, this the nursing home fire that she started in Chicago in nineteen seventy six is still the worst, one of the worst ever fires. It's actually documented in if you look up history of

Chicago that will come up. And it was the most counts of murder that were ever charged to a single person. So the sixty nine counts of murder, and the reason why I wondered, well, why they're sixty nine counts of murder it there's twenty three people who died. How they did it was apparently they made three different charges of murder for each individual's death. I can't remember it on the top of my head why that was so. Basically, the investigators were sure that they had it in the bag.

This was going to be an open and shut kind of case. However, However, obviously, and you know this from all your years of interviewing through prime authors and writing, come down to the way police interrogate someone. You know,

the manner in which they do it. So even if someone is guilty, if a police officer doesn't interrogate properly or follow the processes that case can be thrown out of court, and so basically her lawyer thought that he would, you know, bring His strategy was to discredit her confession, and he claimed that because she was so mentally, you know, she was mentally fragile, she was tired. He said that she would have been prepared to confess anything to get

out of the interrogation room. And so basically the charges were thrown out based on that. They felt that she was pressured into her confession. So she was in court in nineteen seventy seven, in November, and she it's quite interesting that the lawyer said that she she's a nice girl and she was innocent of all the charges. Now could a nice girl do something like that? But basically she collapsed in court when she heard that the charges

were thrown out of court. So I tried to find out more about what happened to her and whether or not she lit anymore fires. I couldn't get that far, but she walked free. So I found that really intriguing and disturbing, and that's why I included it. As a reader, I like to have those kind of things in books. So now I'm writing to crime. I always like to infew some of the cases with other cases that may be related, even if they're not from the same country.

especially when he had her testify. So it's very interesting and again it would be again that's a whole other book, just having how on earth a dur could, how she could be effective testifying, how the jury could pay.

told how they should present themselves on the standard. For some reason, I'm thinking of the Admiral Books Small Sacrifices with Diane down. I remember the Chartley movie with Sarah Fawcett and how she had so she's quite a hard living, you know, kind of woman. And on the stand, you know, they get them to wear quite demure clothes and come across a certain Why oh it's doing that really interesting mm hmm.

or four days and withstood the cross examination. But it was interesting when you heard snippets of how he was at court and how he conducted himself on the stand, and then how the jury interprets that testimony and he was acquitted. So very interesting when that very rare thing happens when I defended in a murder case takes a stand because it's certainly not much of a strategy. It's usually a last ditch effort. Now another Yeah, No, one of the more incredible cases again happens very early in

your book. I mean, if you're really trying for a dramatic opening to a book, you really have it with these stories here of Catherine Wood and Gwen Graham in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Going a little bit back when nineteen eighty eight, and these are two nurses' aides. And what you did to you included studies about serial killers where just a little bit of statistics where you say women partners usually if they're partners in crime murder, usually target adults.

And then they said if it was a lone killer, you said, if it was a lone killer, they would target family members, typically with poison. Now, Wood and Graham are you know, DeFi categorization. And they met in nineteen eighty six in Walker, Michigan outside of Grand Rapids. So tell us a little bit about Catherine Wood and Gwen Graham and their relationship. Tell us a little bit how that started, a little bit about their relationship.

with healthcare serial killers. So obviously there's a hospital setting that provides they're victims, but also the elderly are extremely vulnerable to these kind of killers. That's certainly the what came out of all the research I did. So these women they paired up, they met at this nursing home, and it was actually described by some investigators as a hotbed of lesbian affairs at one point. So Katherine Woods had been had been, had been married and had children.

She had married young and had children young, though only in their mid twenties, I think when the defenses happened. And Gwen Graham was also working at the nursing home, and she was you know, openly gay and was in a relationship with someone else, but they partnered up together

and got romantically involved. You know, Kathie had separated from her husband and she got you know, she'd been at home with her her children, raising a family, and didn't really have oliver skills because she left home, left school early. So she got a job at this nursing home and worked her way out to I guess a position of

some responsibility as a supervisor. So they got together. They made friends, you know, just out to the lunch room, talking around the hospital, the nursing home, and they hooked up together and they moved in together. It was quite a torrid romance, I guess, and you know, they were very I don't know how do I put it. They definitely had a pretty intense relationship I guess sexually and emotionally,

and it was quite volatile. So they got together, and there were a number of residents who died between a certain period of time in nineteen eighty seven, So between a period of time of January and April nineteen eighty seven, there had been a number of deaths at the home. But because these people elderly had Alzheimer's, often the death aren't really questioned. So think, well, it's just it's just

old age. But Kathy had mentioned something to her ex husband, whose name was ken Wood, and he had gone to the police a year after that, in the October of nineteen eighty eight, and he said that his ex wife, Kathy, had come to him and said she was living in fear of Gwen Graham, who was her lover at the time. Then they'd split up, that was still in contact. So Kathy had told her husband that the pair of them

had committed these murders soon after she split up. So their period of relationship wasn't that long, it was maybe five or six months. But during that time they had teamed up together and they were killing people, you know, allegedly five people. And so ken probably thought that his wife was telling outrageous tales and he said to her, look, I won't tell anyone, because he didn't want the mother of his child to get in trouble. Basically, it came

out that the police. He went to the police because he thought, well, I really need to need to let them know. And then an investigation happened at this nursing home which was called Alpine Manor, and it resulted in the arrest of Casi and Gwen. But what happened then was that Cassie. To this day, I don't really know who, if Cathy or Gwen, was the dominant or the passive person in the killings. There's a very comprehensive book that

was written by an author called Lao Cafel. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but he's a fairly well known true crime or thane. It was called Forever in Five Days and it was published in the nineties. It's the definitive account of that crime. But basically Cassie ended up saying that she was pressured by Gwen to kill these women, and some of the methods were really quite horrifying when you think of it, for elderly people

who are infirm and can't fight back. They put like face washers on their faces so they would suffocate and things like that. And it was what came out of some of the investigation was that it was almost like a game to these women, and that they had intended each victim was chosen based on the letter of their first name, and they wanted to spell out murder. That was never proven, but certainly it was quite a sensational sensational claim both of them.

found any of this. That she had said that they had jewelry and even false teeth that they were saving in the t on their trophy shelf, and that they had this again very very adventurous sex life with bondage and auto affixiation and audio affixia and holding a gun to their private parts, and so it was very Again, the media loved this, didn't they in terms of taking care.

many pulieve. So it seems to me that she possibly you know, created this, this whole scenario so she could take pe office and blame her lover, who was apparently, you know, not not as intelligent, was a bit more seen as thuggish, I guess in terms of the more I guess a grective partner in the relationship on the surface, But it does seem like Kathy engineered it so she would get the sympathy and also be able to work with the police to lay all the blame on Gwendolen Graham,

who is never going to be eligible for parole ever, Kathy Woods. Kathy Wood has been eligible for parole since about two thousand and five, but she it keeps getting knocked back. She can be released well in twenty twenty one, so she still will have some life to live when she gets released.

He actually said to them. Without you, I'm sure this matter would never have been cleared up. And he was convinced that she showed remorse, and he said, you're a follower, not a leader. But definitely in my mind from what I read, and I know from reading things that laud Corfeel wrote after doing his lengthy investigation, and he really did lot of stuff into this case that he believed

that Kathy was not innocent as she was portrayed. So I found that interesting that in a few cases, actually I've written about, the judges seem to almost be fooled by the defendants, and I think in this case it sounds like Kathy was portraying herself as a victim. He was forced into doing these things by a lover.

actually moved to Texas with a new girlfriend. So I think during the investigations, the police found out there was a lot of, you know, just a hotbed of a lot of stuff that nursing home, a lot of you know, stuff between the workers and gossip and grudges, so that they think that was what fed into it a bit too.

potassium chloride being the instrument of death. And this is in Clinton, Indiana, and you have Orville Lynn Majors as or as known by his friends Lynn and a Reger. So tell us this is back in nineteen eighty four, and you talk about the story where he has a certain amount of credentials. He's working, somebody tips off his employer and they realize that he's got forged documents and he's fired. And that's nineteen eighty four. But in nineteen

eighty nine he's working as a practical nurse. And so tell us how that happens, and tell us about this Vermilion, this hospital in Vermilion, and tell us a little bit about this story with Orville Linn Majors.

So they can go and go on with whatever they're doing. And when there was an investigation into some deaths at the hospital he was working at, they actually discovered that there was a death in the ICU for the shift that he was on every every twenty three hours that he was working, and when he wasn't on his shift, that then stretched out to a patient died every day by one hundred hours. So there was a really big

discrepancy of time there. So he started his nursing career in nineteen eighty four and he was working at a hospital in Missouri. I had to get my head around a lot of these county it's how it's how it is in America. There are different counties within states and stuff. He was working and it was found that he didn't he didn't have proper a proper documentation to work in a role as a respiratory therapist. I think he was. We don't have those in Australia. It's some sort of

health age job. But then by nunteen eighty nine he's got his qualifications as a licensed practice walman. So my standard of that is a bit like an enrolled there. She can do a certain amount of things that can't do quite as much as a registered nurse, and he was away from away for a while. He's got a lot of warnings about it. And he also on his document, like his record, it actually has been labeled not for rehire by the administration of one of the hospitals that

he'd work at. He worked out and that was after he left in nineteen ninety one, but amazingly two years later he was rehired again. And this is another scene. Throughout all the cases, often it was slopping, really slopping procedures in hospitals that let these things happen. They didn't

check things, people went informed to certain things. So how he was brought to brought to the attention of the futility that he was working at, was that someone had sent them a londonuth later to the Indianna's Department of Health, and they were forwarded to a local newspaper and the letter actually said do you want one of your loved ones to be a patient in that hospital with the death and you're working. We need to stop this nurse

and I hope you will help us. And it basically also mentioned that Majors had you know, he had had a history of being suspended and that this person was concerned that the hospital was going to cover up the deaths so they didn't look so bad. But that is how it all started playing out. So that was in nineteen early nineteen ninety five she was suspended and then his nursing license was suspended, and also the supervisor he had. The nurse supervisor, her name was a lady called Dawn Strek,

and she had done her own in house investigation. She just noticed there was a lot of death and she thought she'd have a look at what was happening, and she discovered that while looking at staff time cards that between a period of two years from nineteen ninety three to ninety ninety five, in majors, he was on duty for one hundred and thirty of one hundred and forty seven deaths in the ICU, and of the years prior to nineteen ninety three and started, there had only been

thirty one patients who have died. So that's another thing that you'll find when people read this book, you'll discover it often one staff member is always consistently present when a lot of people die. So that's what that's what I found concerned in as well. So it seems like the people who are trying to get the attention to hospital administration about things they almost get they get bobbed off,

But that's an expression intend that they get. They get dismissed, and people don't want to know about it, and they almost marginalize themselves because of their concerns. And that's what happened to be Lady drawn too. It was interesting that.

much of not really a slam dunk trial. That really came down to battle of the experts, and the cardiologist gave testimony that that was that he said it was consistent that the illnesses were consistent with potassium chloride, and so that's how he ended up with ninety nine, well three hundred and sixty years, sixty years for each, sixty years for each crime, sixty sixty times six three hundred and sixty years for majors. So with this potassium chloride

now major is also interesting part of the story. Some of these stories, do you think, well, of course, there he goes, he's gone, that's it. But he has he thinks a pretty good shot in an appeal. So we were talking about some of the reasons why he thought he should be able to get another trial. So tell us a little bit about the jurors drinking beer and his appeal.

So in the appeal documents he mentioned hems like one juror was seen to make an inappropriate facial expression at a defense attorney, and that he also wanted a new trouble to said jurors to drunk during lunch rates at the trial, and they drunk during deliberations, and the deliberations

went for three days. And he also had a beat about the fact that he thought jurors were socializing as members of the state policeive picnic that had been organized by the Clay County Sheriff, just to give listeners a bit of a bit of an idea. This was a massive trial in Stay. He had a huge amount of publicity. It was very hard for them to find a jury that wouldn't have heard of the case. And it was

a very length It was a very lengthy process. So they were I guess that in County sheriff, they was just trying to look after the juris because they knew that they were, you know, in for a pretty pretty arduous, arduous time during this trial. But that his appeals to flowing out, you know, the judge up held his convictions and and said that the Clay County Sheriff, you know,

was a very experienced j officer. He was well rest on the appropriate DURI jeury, the way that jury should be treated, and there was no real cause the majors appeal. It is just very I found them very stranger to launch an appeal MM wasted time, tax, base money.

from the bottom, I'm not really very medical. Finally enough, my husband's in there and my mother's in there, so I've got I've got a bit of an interest in that that I personally, you know, I'm very cool or so medical matters. But what had changed now is that all all potassi employed things are pre mixed in hospital pharmacies and it's no longer freely available to ward stuff. So you couldn't just go up to the friegeon go and get it out. It's now logged. And then certain

people have access to it, and they do believe. The prosecutors who worked on this case believed that this case actually probably pretty bit of a bit of wind up a lot of other hospital administrators around America. They're tightened up their practices.

shocking nature of some of these killers. And again, you just do a great job of having those little bits of information where you know, an eyewitness sees somebody again being killed and really then ends up being in court testifying. Some of these people are nurses, fellow nurses that go to authorities like in this case, and the authorities tell them, listen,

mind your own business. And there's a few cases of that where people report and are told listen, you know it's being taken care of, or listen, why don't you just mind your own business? So one of the more dramatic cases. In this book is a nurse from Texas named Janine Jones, and she suspected of fifty deaths. Again, I'd say we're ramping up the horror here. She's suspected of fifty deaths of children, ends up being just talking about one particular sweet child, Chelsea McClellan. So tell us

about Janine Jones. And this is in nineteen ninety eight, so the late nineties. So tell us a little bit about her. And then this Suzanne Maltonado, who's the one that ends up making a list of these suspicious deaths. So tell us a little bit about Janine Jones in Texas and in this Fair County Medical Center.

above her station. So she almost wanted to be in charge, and she would split around, always involved in drama. She was someone that very much people otherliked or they didn't like. Some doctors and nurses thought she was very confident, she was so dedicated to her patients, but there were other people who thought that she was just a trouble maker. She was disruptive, and she was an attention seeker, and

she actually many people who worked with her. And what came out during her trial was that she always sought out the sickest children to talk after was very invested in being involved in this drama with the families of these poor little sick babies, and that she acted really like she ran the ran the pediatric units in that hospital, and there was always something had to work the three pm to eleven PM shift, and it was actually named

the death shift. Peter Elkins in nineteen early nineteen eighties wrote a really excellent long form feature article for the Texas Monthly about this case, and then it became a book. And that's that's a really really good reading. If people can then want to know more. I've given a list of books that I recommend people read at the back

of it. Still more incepts about the cases. So every time pretty Mum Jim work, she waked the shift and we had colloquially known as shift amongst the hospital staff because there was always an increase in the number of medical emergencies during that shift. There were babies who went into kadiak arrests. They had said agues and they came close to death able to So Jeanine would don alert people of these babies being sick and then may be revised,

but many of them actually died. To thrive on the drama, she was very over dramatic. She was often found in the morgue. She won't to take the babies down to the morgue and she'd be saying goodbye to them and cuddling them, and her behavior actually aroused a lot of suspicions among coworkers. Basically, they thought that she was harming these babies. They really thought that, and you imagine that

these nurses have these kind of suspicions. They're probably based on some sort of fact, and they thought that she was creating these medical emergencies so she could be the big shots and be a hero and be admired from the families. So there was this nurse. She was alreadis, so she was higher out higher trage than Jeanine. A name was his Anna mal Meldonardo, and so she began making a list of all the babies who were dying

during that in eighty one or nineteen eighty two. She was a new nurse, so she was callef he hadn't been working for that long, and she worked the shift immediately after Junine Jones, from eleven PM to seven am, and she just began to wonder why all these babies on the shift that Jeanine Jones were, Why are they getting sicker, Why are they dying? Why aren't they getting better?

And she actually took her concerns to their supervisor, called Pat Belco, but she was told in no uncertain terms, because she was a young nurse, they probably thought, oh, she's a bit keen. She was advised to stop playing amateur sleuth and leave it alone. Don't even we don't want to hear you, you know, talking about this anymore.

But then eventually people were not able to ignore the fact that there were so many baby deaths and medical emergencies in the ICU, and they had stop investigating themselves, and the in house lawyers advised the doctors that they really needed to get rid of get rid of Jeannine Jones, because she seemed to be the wait thinks so no

talk really is actually having a charge with anything. But they're like, you need to get her out of the hospital because these these things are not good for our statistics. They're not good for we don't want people question anythings. So that's another common theme about what happens in these cases. Often the hospital administration. It's almost like stuff in the Catholic church. You know, they just brush it under the carpet, remove the problem, but don't really do anything about.

but we might possibly be on the hook here. So I thought that would be very very cold and calculating.

And the story that that involves this too. The testimony of this woman of the only of the one child that she was convicted of and and if I may, I'll just I'll just one of the more dramatic parts of the Yeah, she's in she's at the hospital, and then she's at doctor Holland and this kid comes in with just a bad cold basically, and so the woman says at her suggestions, you know, she says, Janine says, well, I'll take the child so you can have a little

bit of privacy to be with the mother. And then the kid has a seizure and then remarkably, the mother believes that that Janine had something to do with helping the child. Not only did the doctor save the child. So take it from there in terms of this incredible turn of events two or three times where she's still trusted despite this, at least for the reader, this obvious horror.

did so. Janine was working in this hospital and little Chelsea McClellan this was her regular clinic and it was the first time that the family had ever gone to this clinic and she basically experienced a seizure and stopped breathing. So Chelsea was rushed to hospital. She recovered that the doctors were baffled as to why she was sick. But the mother, Pettie McClellan, she was really grateful to this doctor Holland and Janine Jones because she was convinced that

they saved her daughter's life. So the woman who actually caused this, the mother was like, thank you so much for helping my daughter. So it didn't finally out for Dinder to missus McLellan from using the doctor surgery again.

So less than a month later, after this little girl had spent a week in hospital with you know, seizures that were we now know induced by Janine Jones giving her an injection of something, Janine Jones said to the mother, well, why don't we update the little girls in the nizations or shots as they refer to them, And she did that. So the mother was actually holding her little girl and the little girl was facing her mother. I mean other

experience is taking my own children for their indianizations. It's horrible but very important. But almost immediately as an injection went into the little girl's thies that Jeanine Jones gave this thought, the little girl had trouble breathing. She was struggling to breathe, and this, to me is just the most horrifying thing. The little girl was struggling to cry and apparently, according to Pettie mcleollan, the mother, her little girl was trying to say Mama and couldn't say it.

And I just found that absolutely heart wrenching. It was so horrible. So the mother could see what was happening right in front of her eyes. But during all this, Jeanine Jones actually gave it another injection and that's when she stopped breathing. And so immediately Jeanine Jones goes into drama mode. Right, We've got to get to the doctor,

and little Chelsea died. But the reason why this case has come back into the news because I saw some television interviews on YouTube with Pattie McClellan is speaking recently because of Janine Jones possibly could get parole. She was recounting what she saw that day, and she said that it was almost like Jeanine Jones was on a high, like she was excited by the drama when she was yelling that her little girl wasn't breathing, and she found

that quite horrifying. So the reason why Jeanine Jones quite possibly can get parole is that there was at the time of her imprisonment, there was a Texas law to ease overcrowding in prisons. If you behaved, I guess you could get a reduction. In your sense, it was to eat a crowding. So Jeanine Jones actually is eligible for release in twenty eighteen. But there is a very active group at the moment trying to work to find evidence

of other cases so they can stop that happening. They're literally they think hundreds of people, their children may have been killed by Jeanine Jones, and they believe that she was killed by Jeanine Jones. But for whatever reason, some were told to sign confidential reality agreements at the hospital.

Maybe they will paid money for their loss. Some of them are prevented from talking, but the legal authorities are certainly really working with the families to try and find other evidence that Janine Jones killed children back then.

right Jeanine Jones. I believe, well, they know, gave the little girl another injection of the drug that she used to kill them, which was a muscle relaxant, and the little girl died in the ambulance, which is completely tragic because it's just horrifying. I found this Jeanne Jane Jones's case probably one of the worst I think that I'd written about in it's like a compulsion to kill almost you just can't believe it, really, and you're right, you can't even make this stuff up.

the the opiates that you're stealing. These hospitals are just trying to cover their own investors and their own you know, getting advice from their lawyer, which really has nothing to do with the victims that could be mounting. They have some of these rates of death well where they have some of these suspected nurses and doctors on shift that could defy any other kind of explanation. And you've included at all in this incredible Angels of Death. You've got

a chapter on Harold Shipman and Michael Swangle. This is a really comprehensive scary next time you want to go to the hospital type book. I congratulate you on this.

but certainly that there are you can't dispute it. There are cases of healthcare professionals who do to do kill people.

work in certain areas. It just seems that there were many, many times, particularly with Charles Cullen, Howld Chipman, things like that, where they could have been caught and they weren't, and it just kind of kept going on. I mean, eventually they were caught, but in between they were able to kill a lot more people.

your research? Could you conclusively say that this is just an issue that occurs everywhere.

and in Europe. Australia not so much. And there are some cases, but because they are not they're under appeal or they're currently being dealt with in court, I obviously

couldn't write about them. As we discussed last time I spake to you, the laws in Australia around what you can and can't report A very strict no. It's not like America where you basically can interview anyone and you know, anyone can speculate about what they think they are really really strict rules about court reporting, so yeah, that I couldn't write about those, but certainly I think Britain, Britain probably and America that was the most prevalent, although were the most kind of cases.

serial killer. And again, like very many of the other serial killers, they blend into society so that they are just the person next door, the caregiver, the neighbor, the sweet nurse or the caring doctor. So it's even more horrifying when you think about that.