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You are now listening to True Murder The Most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufansky.
Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zuvanski for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them. American Sniper is the astonished, ushing autobiography of Seal Chief Chris Kyle, who is the record holder for most kills for a sniper in US military history. Kyle has more than one hundred and fifty officially confirmed kills. The previous American record
was one hundred and nine. Through his remarkable career, total has though his remarkable total has not been made official by the Pentagon. In this New York Times best selling memoir, Kyle shares the true story of his extraordinary decade long career, including his multiple combat tours in Iraq, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Elsewhere from nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and nine.
Kyle's riveting first person account of how he went from Texas rodeo cowboy to expert marksmen in Feared Assassin offers a fascinating view of modern day warfare and one of the most in depth and illuminating looks into the secret world the special ops ever written. The book that we're featuring this evening is American Sniper, the Autobiography of the most lethal sniper in US military history, with my special guest author Jim D. Falice. Welcome to the program, and
thank you for greeing this interview. Jim D.
Falice, Nice a lot, Dan, It's a pleasure to be here.
Oh, it's my pleasure. This is quite a unique book, even for this program where we have our share of unique books. This is a fascinating memoir of a pretty
fascinating guy. So congratulations. First off, give us a little bit of your background, Jim, because it's very interesting to know how you came to this story and tell us really how you came to be able to be the author of this American Sniper, why you wanted to do it, how you came to be involved with this tell us a little bit about your background and that story how you came to write American Sniper.
Well, even though I'm primarily known as a novelist, I have actually done a number of nonfiction books and helped helped a couple of celebrities write their memoirs. Until American Sniper, though I had never helped a military person actually write a memoir. But I was very interested in, you know,
getting that opportunity. And it happened that the publisher, excuse me, my publishers, HarperCollins, was interested in had heard about Chris and approached Chris about about doing a book, and when he indicated that he was interested, they contacted me and said, hey, we know that you've been looking for you know, we know you've been looking for a really good topic, really good subject. Would you be interested in, you know, talking
to this seal. At the time, they didn't really know all that much about Chris, and they knew that he had the record or was was talked about as having the record of kills, but they didn't really know all that much about him, so they kind of they gave him, actually they gave his lawyer my phone number, and Chris and I had a conversation on the phone, and I still remember it because we I said, Chris, why you know, why do you why do you want to tell your story?
Why was it? Why do you want to write a book? And he said, I want to honor the people I served with and I want to help the families of the two guys who I couldn't save. And I said, you know what, that's a that's a hell of a good reason to write a book, A really good reason to write a book. And I think from that moment on, I was I was hooked, and I would have you know, I knew, I knew it was going to be a great book.
Now us a little bit of the background here. We're talking about Texas here in terms of where he was born and raised and and just for the record too, where are you originally from? And how much connection do you have the sort of this kind of the lifestyle that he or the upbringing that he had in Texas itself. But tell us then about a little bit about where he grew up specifically in Texas.
Sure, And you know, it's it's kind of an amazing thing because I'm I don't know how much my accent gives me away. But I'm in New York kind of a New York city. I'm born in Bread although at I don't we live now, we live outside the city.
Chris was Chris was a good old boy. Chris was was Texas born and bred and raised, and except while he was in the Navy and the seal, has had lived all his life in uh in Texas and still had quite a lot of uh the Texas twang in him and went to went to the length, you know, just to kind of preserve that heritage. He he had two kids, and when each of one of them was born, he was happened to be uh stationed out in California,
and that's where obviously they had the the children. But he had his father ship him a little box of Texas dirt, and so that when each one of his children was born, the first thing that their feet stepped on was was Texas dirt. And uh so he was very much, very much, uh you know, a Texas character.
He in high school, he started uh riding rodeo. He uh went through with a lot of different events and eventually got pretty good at buston broncos and went a whole bunch of a whole bunch of belt, which is you know, kind of the prize that you win when you're on the circuit, and you know, a lot of He couldn't couldn't survive on that for a long time, but it, you know, kept him in beer money through the first couple of years in college. And eventually he he when he got out of college, he became a
cowboy and he loved he loved the life. They just loved it to death. But you can't get rich. You can't get rich being a cowboy. And eventually, eventually he decided he wanted to do something else, and he had always wanted to be he'd actually always wanted to be
a marine. And so he went one day to the recruiting office and the marine recruiter happened to be out for lunch, and he was, you know, the kind of went to the door, door was closed, realized the guy was out for lunch, and you know, made a U turn, was on his way out of the building and the he heard a voice say, hey, hey, boy son, come here, come over here. So what do you what are you doing?
What are you trying to sign up for? And you know, Chris told him I wanted to be a marine, and you know, he told him why, and the recruiters said, well, you know, I'm with the Navy. You ever hear the seals? And you know, from that little, short brief conversation, the whole career was born.
Tell us a little bit about the relationship that he had with his family growing up, Well, what kind of family life he really had, and initially he had, Well, like a lot of people in Texas and a lot of people in general, have hunting in terms of an experience when they're young, how important was hunting and how important was hunting with the family that he grew up with in Texas.
Yeah, I think that was, you know, just as you say, that was, you know, a really affirmative experience for him. He and his dad at a very early age, his dad took him out uh to learn to learn how to haunt UH, showed him and his he has he Chris has a younger brother, a few years younger, and both of them, you know, were taught from a very early age to respect respect guns, UH, to also to respect hunting. They would not basically they would eat anything
they they killed. So you know, whether it was when they were little, you know, if they if they got a squirrel, they'd have squirrels too, and more often when as they they got a little older, hunting deer and
you know, other other sorts of animals. He was Chris was a fairly decent shot from a young age, but not necessarily you know, a champion, but he he grew up around around guns and you know, in just the outdoor life, and he really liked He liked the life and he liked the skills that he developed as a young man.
When was he born? What year was he born?
Boy, you know, I'm gonna i'd actually, off the top of my head, I can't remember. I had to look it up.
Well, we'll say roughly so that he was born roughly in the in the in the seventies, he was he was still a young man.
Well he died, so you got me Dan, So you know, now.
I just want to have a context because we're going to be talking about Iraq, but we're also going to be talking about obviously, Well, the question I want to ask was growing up and with his family's background, was there any military background and in terms of a teenager having an attitude and and certainly Chris had one, Uh, what was his what was his earliest opinion about war?
I think that y you know, I think that y yuh, Chris wasn't particularly philosophical about a lot of things. He's very patriotic, uh he he very much you know, believed in America. And he he also one thing that was very important for him growing up was to stand up for other people. He he was egs, he was the epitome of the older brother. Uh. His his younger brother was I think three or four years younger than him.
And there's a lot of stories uh, you know, among not only Chris, but among uh Chris's brother's friends, uh about you know how Chris you know, had st had stood up for younger kids and smaller kids who were being picked on. So he really had kind of that protective gene almost in him when he when he was a kid. I think that when he got into the the reason that he got into the military was a combination of you know, of patriotism and also and also adventure.
I think, like a lot of young men, you know, he wanted he not only wanted to serve his country, but he also wanted to you know, to kind of you know, put himself, not to have put himself in kind of an action type you know, situation, and you know, test himself in different ways, and you know, being a seal was in a lot of ways the ultimate and the ultimate test for you know, for a young man, especially one that is not only patriotic, but is you know kind of thinks of themselves as a as kind
of a tough fighter and or that kind of person.
Right right now, tell us where Tea fits in here in terms of time timeline, in terms of when did he meet and is that the way pronounce Tella or yeah, yeah.
Absolutely is his wife and actually they met. They met in the nineties when shortly after Chris had had qualified to become a seal and was still it was still though in his training. Seals have a kind of we think of a seal as someone who you know, has passed the basic requirements and buds and gone through the regular courses and now they've become a seal. Well to this, to the seals, that's just kind of the first that's
kind of the first rung. You now have to go through all this training and prove yourself before the other people and the you know, the teams will really accept you as a as a seal, and Chris was in that stage where he had passed through kind of the preliminary all the preliminaries, and the world called him a seal, but he was still trying to prove himself to the you know, to the teams or to the to the
seals themselves. And they were in Chris was in San Diego, and Taya one night came down with a friend and met him or was hanging out in a bar, and basically, depending on which one of them is telling the story, either she picked him up or he picked her up, and they started joking and drinking and joking, and Taya
coin to Taya. At the end of the night, she had drunk so much unfortunately she threw up, and when he still called her the next I think it was the next day, and was still called her, she knew that it must be true love.
Sure, yeah, interesting, yeah, so she was. She was obviously understanding how passionate he was about the military and especially or specifically the seals as well. And did she understand and or did he explain or did she somehow have some military history herself within her family? How did she come to accept everything that she felt she needed to accept in partnering up with Chris Kyle.
I think it was a really a process, and a long process. I don't think that first of all, I don't think that anyone completely understands what it means to deploy into a combat situation. If you're a the soldier of that you know that's going there before you've actually done it, or be the you know, the spouse or the kids you know of the family. It's one thing to read a book about it, or see a movie about it, or even hears somebody that's been there, and
quite another thing to actually emotionally experience it. And at the point when they met, not only had head you know, neither Chris nor Taya head you know head deployment or been through a deployment. And yeah, I think that Chris was still learning what it meant to be a seal and Taya was at that point anyway, learning what.
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To be in love with a seal, and I think it was like a long process. It wasn't a smooth wasn't necessarily a smooth road. And we talk a little bit about actually we talk a lot about about kind of some of the trials and tribulations. They went through through it in the book.
Now with this, what is the again, what is the timeline in terms of the Iraq War and the spring of two thousand and three and the initiative by the United States and Taya and their first born So sure of an idea.
Yeah, Chris, Chris and Taya, you know, meet and their relationship starts getting you know, hot and heavy right before nine to eleven. As a matter of fact, on the morning of nine to eleven, they they wake up and they find that the towers that have been struck and Chris, uh, we have a funny story in the Book of Chris basically races to his base to report to the base, gets pulled over by a by one of the local policemen.
Uh who you know. And Chris, being Chris, was always no matter what the situation was, no matter how much stress he was, he was always respectful, even to cops. As a police officer came up and Chris said, uh, uh, I'm sorry, I know you got to give me a ticket. Go hey, give me the ticket, but I gotta get
to the base. And the the cop looked in the back and saw you know, I saw his gear and realized he was he was military, and so the cop said, well, you know, what's your unit and Chris said he was a CEL and the cop said, alright, up, follow me, I'm a cop pavement escort. Not quite as fast as Chris had been going uh to the base, but uh
they went pretty fast. I As it happened, Uh, Chris was not actually needed uh to you know, to go to Afghanisty and after nine to eleven, but he started training up to go to to Iraq as the build up for Iraq happened.
Uh.
Chris and and Taya married in that in that same time period and they actually have their as it worked out, both of their children right before deployments that Chris and Chris went on, uh, which I'm sure was extremely stressful for for both of them, but uh especially for Tay as she was left uh the first time. You know, she was a first time mother with you know, a newborn and her husband. Suddenly you know, her husband was there one day and then the next day was you know,
off on the other side of the world. Uh, you know, being shot at. So it was an extremely you know, extremely stressful experience, an experience I should should note that you know, the wives, you know, loved ones of service people, you know of literally hundreds of thousands of service people have gone through. It's just that we don't, you know, we don't necessarily think about, you know, about that side of the equation sometimes.
Now you talk about the son being born just as he's being deployed through Iraq, Is that correct? Or Afghanistan?
Not? Actually it's Iraq. That all the all the deployments in the book are in Iraq.
Okay, now with with his deployment, Now, how we've kind of skipped over some real important stuff. Number One, we're not I certainly don't know, but our audience certainly doesn't know about what really a seal means in terms of what is their purpose in the military, you know, secretive. But tell us a little bit about the seals and and how does he rise to the and to the level that he is one of these again assassins? He's a sniper? How does that happen? You said he wasn't
really a marksman when he was young. How does he get to this point? And and and how does he why do they pick him?
Sure, let's let's just let's just hit on like kind of a common mis misconception. First, a lot of people when when we use the word sniper, a lot of people think of, you know, kind of a person stalking high value target, so to speak, for for days and days and days. And while that certainly is occasionally done in contemporary military, the role of snackers on the battlefield has you know, has evolved as everything else has evolved.
And in the American military and actually in every pretty much most Western I I'll make a blanket statement say every other Western military. I may I may possibly be missing somebody, but most militaries use uh, snipers or really good marksmen to in situations where they need to be
able to not kill civilians and they need precision. They want to have preci you know, precision shots where there's potentially people around who may get hurt and the and so the ability and the equipment to be able to you know, to strike a combatant or an enemy me at a thousand yards becomes kind of a premium in a war, especially in a place like Iraq, where all of the time you had you know, you had civilians all over the place. So it's kind of a misconception.
And I think that you know that I certainly shared it, uh, you know before you know, beforehand, not not really knowing you know, anything about the you know, contemporary tactics and strategies, and the word sniper, you know, sounds sounds really cool. But the odd thing is that it comes out of a whole, you know, a whole movement to reduce collateral
damage and and injuries. What happened with Chris. The Seals in American the American military, the Seals are an elite special operations unit that are they're trained to operate on the sea, in the air, and on the land, which is where they're you know, that nickname Seals comes from.
There are a number of teams they're assigned in, you know, from different places, and you can think of them as the kind of the Navy equipment to equivalent excuse me, to other special operations units like the the American Special Forces or Rangers or the Air Commandos. So each have a slightly different, slightly different mission and somewhat different training, but they're all kind of elite, you know, elite units.
In Iraq, the Seals were used initially for in the initial invasion, and Chris was part of this to seize oil fields that they were afraid that Saddam would blow up and pollute the Gulf with as he had done in the First Gulf War. And so Chris and the seal team that he was part of were assigned just at the very start of the ground war to go in and uh take over a an oil terminal and basically protect it from you know, from an ecological disaster.
And that was really his first initiation. He was a a young man and uh, you know, kind of the young man on the the low, guy on the totem pole for for one of a better metaphor. And uh, even though he was in an elite unit and had proven himself, you know, one of the best you know soldiers around, he still had to prove himself to you know, to that to that team. He was a quote unquote new guy, and you know, that was kind of his
first introduction into combat there. And he served he served in Iraq for I forget exactly how long the deployment is. Its several he they're actually only in combat for a few months. And then when he came back, he had proven himself to the point where he was recommended for sniper school and you know, from there he was trained, you know, to be a sniper. Marksmanship is certainly is absolutely critical and important. And Chris, I have to tell you, Chris was a hell of a shot, although he he
always claimed that he wasn't. He always said he was just a good shot. I've shot with him. He's it was an incredible shot. But I guess I take his word for it that there were guys that were that
were better. But he he was. Besides being a really really good shot on the rifle, he was extremely patient and he had the sort of skills that are necessary for for snipers today, and that includes being able to go out in the field, to be able to scout different areas, but also to anticipate where you know, where an enemy would be making an attack. Again, you know, as I was saying before, you know, we think of
snipers as people in the jungles well interact. Much of the action, probably ninety percent of the action that the snipers saw were in urban situations, and these snipers who were interac had to you know, learn to interpret, you know, kind of urban areas and where you know where the enemy would be coming from.
Now you say, you know quite you know a few months as a typical deployment. Yeah, now the sun is born. Yeah, his son is born, and he doesn't really get a chance to bond with his son obviously photos and I guess knowing of you know, getting contact with his wife constantly with Teya.
Uh.
Tell us what his adjustment was like when he'd come back from the deployment.
I think it was, you know, it's pretty tough. It's tough to I think the weird one of the weirdest things about modern you know, combat is that you were in a combat situation on you know, on Thursday, people are shooting at you, and on Saturday, you're driving down the street of you know, wherever it is you live, San Diego or or wherever, and you're you know, going home. Uh. And that's got to be a heck of a I've never had to make that transition myself, but I would
imagine it's it's very very strange. Chris would typically spend a couple of weeks really kind of just kind of decompressing, and for him, that basically meant staying in the house and and just kind of, you know, just not seeing anybody or or seeing very few people and just kind of just getting used to not being not being shot at the Seals. Everybody that was in Iraq obviously was
you know, to some degree or another endanger. The Seals mission typically was to you know, go out and find the people who were planning bombs, planning IEDs, who were carrying out assassinations generally against Iraqis, and you know, so they were always they were always in danger. So I think it was you know, like kind of jumping off a freight train that's moving at a one hundred and ten miles an hour and now you know, now you have to learn to walk again.
How was his marriage fairing from the employment itself and then the adjustment itself.
Yeah, well, you know, it was up and down. It's a lot of it was a huge it's a huge amount of stress. Having a kid is a lot of you know, it was a huge amount of stress parent. But you know, throw a war in there, and you know, and everything else, and you know, it's it's incredible. They went up and down at times. At times in their words, you know, it was blissful and then at other times, you know, there were I think both both of them were ready to you know, to throw in the towel.
We talked about we One of the most emotional things for me and working in the book was very early on when we were working Chris, I I remember we we we conducted a lot of the interviews, We did a lot of you know, a lot of interviews in person, obviously, and we spend a lot a lot of time together. Chris and Tay came up and stayed with with myself and my family up here, and I down and you know,
stayed with them. And one of the one I think the first time that we really spent a lot of time together, we actually were at the a ranch and it was a friend of Chris's and now a friend of mine, and I just remember, I think it was
the first breakfast we had. We're sitting around and Taya, who was a great cook by the way, had made us breakfast and we just started talking and they started talking about their marriage and they s were talking for some reason about you know, some hard times they had, and it was just an incredibly emotional experience, Uh to hear these people just pouring, you know, just you know, saying, you know, how difficult it had been for them to keep to stay together, and you know, just uh, Taya
talking about you know, the struggles that she had and you know, and and Chris talking about how how difficult it had been for him to you know, to adjust to coming back to to America. And and I the one time that that stands out. And we go into a lot of detail about this in the in the book, in The American Sniper, but one time that stands out for me. Their son had been was growing and tell you it just came to the conclusion that he was really going to need, you know, he needed a strong
male figure, you know, growing up. And and she told, uh, Chris that cause his his enlistment was coming up, that if he was going to re enlist, she she wasn't going to leave the marriage, wasn't gonna walk out, but she was going to move from their home in San Diego up to you know, to be with her parents, Uh, to be closer to her parents. Because this way, at least that you know, her son, their son would have you know, their grandfather as a you know, as a
you know, as a male figure. And I think that was a really important moment for Chris. And I think that Chris realized that you know, that he had he had to make a decision. And while sh he wasn't necessarily going to lose his wife and family, I think that inside he realized that he had to decide, you know, between the job that he had always wanted and and loved and the family that he had always wanted and and loved. And you know, he chose love. He chose
his his his kids and his wife. And you know, I think about it some days. You know, I'm not sure if I had the same choice, what I choose between my career and you know, my family. I don't know. You know, that's a that's a tough choice for all of us. I think.
Right now the he's working with the the Polish GROM or the NCO in in in Iraq. And what was interesting too is that you also talk about h well he talks about in the memoir and uh, and of course you make it come along. I mean that what happens is that they're also providing cover for advancement and clearing of buildings. So there's a lot of that sort of activity by the Seals as well, wasn't there right?
Yeah, Well, first of all, I guess I have to give the GRAM a real plug because they're they're great guys, and and they owe me some drinks too, so hopefully they're d well. I'm not going to drink any of the vodka that they drink because they're their stuff is just crazy. They just those guys. I'm not gonna they Chris couldn't keep up with them and drinking, so I'm not going to even try. But they were actually Chris and Taya went over. I could couldn't make it, but
Chris and Taya went over. When the book came out, We've been translated into many different languages, and the polls that the Gram especially were exceptional hosts. And I worked very close lessly with the Polish translator, who was really an excellent guy. And so I can't say enough about about how hospitable those people they were. But yes, the the job that the Grid we should explain the GRAM or the Polish kind of kind of the Polish equivalent
of Seals. They're, you know, in a very elite special forces unit, and like the Seals, what they were often assigned to do would be to find a whether he's a bomb maker or some other someone who was suspected of being a terrorist leader. They would go to and they would go to his house and make the arrest and you know, bring him in. Sometimes it went you all went off without a hitch. They would come there in the middle of the night, knock on the door,
and the door would open. They say, you know, are you such an are Actually the interpreted would say are you such and such. I'd say yes, okay, well you know you have to come with us, blah blah blah, and there would be no problem. More often the door would be locked and you know, and you didn't really know what was going to happen, you know, inside, And that was Chris. Chris went on quite a number of
those missions basically because he had been trained. Besides the training as a sniper, he had trained as a navigator and was able to handle the special equipment that the GROM needed to use to get around wherever they were at the time.
Now he goes for this is for deployments. But it's interesting what happens between the third and the fourth deployment in terms of the and I think I believe it's the other child and tell us a little bit about the leukemia scare.
Well, when chris is uh daughter uh was born, I she there there are a number of ailments and without you know, going into all the the technicalities, unfortunately that that she had to be hospitalized, and the initial sets of reports looked very very bad, so much so that I think that, you know, without getting going of going too deep into their kind of personal lives here, but I think that Taya probably thought that that she was ah with good reason, that her daughter was going to
die and and it looked like she had leukemia and other complications. At the same time, Chris had been you know, under quite a lot of uh stress and strain and you know, on the on the job, and I think he got when he learned that that his daughter was you know, suffering with leukemia and that the doctors at that point were saying, you know, the prodagnosis did not
look very good. He went to his CEO and you know, and said basically explained what was going on, and uh the CEO is credit uh just arranged very quickly for with the help I think, I believe the Red Cross uh J just to get Chris home and he was he was home within you know, within well, he was on his way within hours. I forget you know, whether it took twenty four or thirty six hours for him
to get there. Fortunately, and thank god the U she her condition was was difficult, but it was not anywhere near as dire as some of the the tests had initially showed. And they were able to uh, I don't know all the the medications and stuff that they were able to to to deal with the problem. And it turned out that she didn't have leukemia, that that test had been incorrect, and fortunately and so she yeah, thank God today is a is a really really healthy, great little kid.
Now you mentioned God, and this is another part that's interesting to as a you know, the complexity of Chris Kyle is that he was what he would call categorized as a devout Christian. Tell us a little bit how he came to terms with what some people might see a conflict of shooting people and a strong Christian background. How did he how did he come to terms with that? Explain?
I think that well. I think that the first thing to understand about that with Chris is to understand that for Chris, what his job as a as a soldier was was to protect his people and to protect him by the by his people. He was protecting not only the people on his team, you know, they his fellow seals. But in his case specifically, he was protecting you know, Iraqi civilians and I he did not see, he did not see a a conflict in you know, in killing
the enemy. He the things that he l lamented that the the deep sorrow that he had after the war were for the people that he couldn't protect. Uh. The two men who served you know next to him who died well won during the war and one from wounds later on. And you know, and different uh, different Americans who you know who not through any literal fault of his, but you know, died in you know, died in combat or died because of you know, IDs so that were
placed or what have you. Chris did have Chris incidentally did have, you know, Muslim friends. As a matter of fact that I've just finished a book on one of the men who was a really good friend of Chris, who is a Muslim, a Sunni Muslim. But in in terms of religion, Chris considered himself, as you say, a devout Christian. He had been brought up, as you know,
as a as a Christian. His father had been I believe a deacon in the church, Lady Econ, and he believed in the Bible, he would Chris would have been the first to tell you that he he committed a lot of things in there. And but he did not see, you know, he didn't see a big, a big conflict
with war. And I think you know historically that has been you know something that you know, religions, especially the Christian religion, whether you're Catholic or Protestant, have you know, dealt with over and over, you know again over the ages. You know what you know, what is the just war? Where wind should someone you know defend other people? When
should you know, he or she fight? And Chris wasn't particularly philosophical, and I don't think I think it was a fairly it was a fairly black and white question for him. He you know, his values were God, country and family, and you know, if his country needed him to, you know, to to go to war, then he was ready to go to war.
There is a story though, that really shows how passionate he was as opposed to, well not opposed of, in the say, compared to even fellow Seal members. If I have this guy's name right, Dick Couch for a former Vietnam guy. Now, there was a so just illustrate. Part of the part of the book I found very fascinating was this little conversation and that he has. While Dick is a great.
Dick's a great guy. Dick's a great guy, you know. And Chris had his own take to Dick. Uh Dick as you as you point out, it's a seal and you know, a veteran and a very good writer. It happened that there was he was working on he was working on a book and had a discussion I guess, got into a discussion with some other seals and Chris thought that Chris said a different, different opinion. I think Than didn't Dick on things and kind of let him
know about it. But I don't think either, I don't think either man that was necessarily a really big moment in their lives.
Well, it was just that he's very passionate about the infant. Somebody was, you know, Dick was criticizing what they were doing in Iraq as opposed to not that he was defending Vietnam, but he was saying that they were wrong headed in this and and I think very personal.
Yeah, I think to kind of to step back just a little bit. I think a lot of the older I think there's a lot of the older generation Seals especially, but a lot of you know, Vietnam veterans and stuff have, you know, kind of a certain idea of how how the Seals should be deployed and what sort of mission they should be on, and and where they should be used and urban warfare and the way that the Seals were being used in different places it doesn't fit with
that model. In the Battle of Felujah, for instance, the Seals were used, you know, as long distance snipers in urban warfare, which is absolutely not a traditional Special Operations role. And I think that a lot of the the younger guys are say this is you know, use us because you know, we've been trained, we're good, and we can do this. Yeah, maybe this isn't the mission that you know, you had planned, you know, thirty years ago or twenty years ago, but it's something that we can excel at
and they have the record to back it up. The older guys see a lot of the pitfalls of that strategy,
and you know, and they have a different take. In the case that we're talking about UH, specifically in the Battle of Ramadi uh the at the at the time, the UH philosophy that was being used was kind of the unfortunately I'm gonna end up taking size by by talking about here, but the philosophy that was was being used was was kind of, uh, you know, give them candy approach and you know, make nice and and then
you can you know, build the country. And uh, Chris didn't Chris didn't believe in that, Chris, Chris is Uh. From Chris's point of view, the only reason that the that the terrorists lost in Ramandi and they did was because not just the not just seals, but the American forces. Uh, when after the bad dies and you know, and beat them, you know in you know, in a very very fierce,
you know, fierce battles. And the discussion that specifically you know you're referencing there has to do with, you know, with that approach and which which approach you should you know, you should take. And I think, you know, Chris was pretty forceful in his opinions, as he always was, So.
There certain amount to let.
People read the I guess read the books so they can make their whole judgment.
Yeah he did. He did say something to the effect too, that there was certain factors that only could appreciate that kind of approach. There was no again being nice with approach. They really only because there was certain factions that could go either way. They were looking for, not in terms of leadership losing to come out on top.
Yeah, exactly. And obviously I have an opinion here, and in my opinion, you know, shades a lot if there's two extremes on, you know, and Chris is on one side, and you know, I don't necessarily know that, you know, I know, I read Dick's book. Dick's book on the Battle of the Money is excellent. I would highly recommend it to anyone and and say, you know, it's a must read. I think my conception though, of how why that battle was was won is a heck of a
lot closer to to Chris's. You know, then at least what the you know, what some of the people in Dick's books say. But you know, of course, you know history really it's really for history to you know, to tell us in years gone by or years to come, rather excuse me now the.
Day and uh and and Chris, their marriage survives, they have two children. Tell us about the last deployment and then the return back from duty.
Yeah, the last deployment was I It's funny cause in some ways, by that time Chris Uh had had literally become a legend, and the some of his uh some of his buddies that had started using that as a nickname as his fame started growing. But Uh, but really by the by his fourth deployment in Iraq, or the fourth deployment that we talked about, he was truly a legend. And he had we say, he had over a hundred and fifty kills and w n by that we mean confirmed kills uh that were recorded and and done on
the gun. And the reality is that he had actually if you threw another hundred on top of that number, you still would be under how many he had. And people knew he was good. He was highly respected and you know, and and looked up to and and and
the person the guy that you wanted in battle. On the other hand, it he was also starting to get, you know, under a lot of pressure cause he the the what they call the a the the tempo of the operations had increased so muh so dramatically as they were fighting and they started getting into situations where, you know, where they were getting shot at quite a lot every night, and the pressure just started, you know, I think just
started building up. And at the same time, unfortunately, sometimes when you're in you know, when you're a situation like that, you don't necessarily take the best care of your body. You don't necessarily eat right if you have habits of oh, say like uh, chewing a lot of tobacco, may start chewing a lot of tobacco and drinking a lot of coffee, and all of a sudden, your heart rate starts getting
way up there. And so, yeah, have all these physical things going on in stresses, and they eventually got you know, got to the point with Chris where his uh, his blood pressure and his his heart rate were uh, well beyond the normal you know limits, and he was eventually uh and he eventually requested to or was was requested to go uh. He left. He leaves, He leaves early,
about a week early. It they weren't actually in combat at the time, but it was clear that you know that the stress was you know, it was getting to him physically. And and so he goes home and and stops chewing so much tobacco among other things, and swallow. He had a really bad habit of you know, when you choose I don't know if you're uh tobacco chuur,
but you know in theory is all spit it out. Well, Chris, Chris never spit his chewing tobaccua, so he would go through these big wads of he's basically eating, you know, tons of tobacco everything. It's like and you're wondering why you're wondering. You forget the stress.
Yeah, it's amazing. Now, what what point does the author that I thought this was impressive? He's authored the Naval Special Warfare Sniper Doctrine and which is you say it is the first Navy Seal Sniper manual.
Yeah, yeah, Well the one thing we should should note, I guess like from a historical point of view, is that until very recently, and actually until just before Chris became a sniper, the Seals use the Marine uh you know, the Marine Sniper School exclusively, and uh they they changed that because they wanted to emphasize a few things differently. But a lot of a lot of uh, Seal sniper doctrine comes pretty much canna be traced from the from the Marines, and if you talk to some of the
older some of the older snipers. You know, you'll you know, they went you know, they all went to they all went to Marine Scholl. Like Craig Sawyer from you know, from Top Gun. He you know, he's he was a seal sniper, but he was trained, you know by the Marines. So and that's why, that's why there was no official you know, so they were using all the Marine you know,
documents and stuff. Chris did that, uh, Chris uh put that together after he came back from uh, from that deployment, from the fourth deployment, and it's basically a manual to my knowledge. It's yeah, obviously you know, they're specifics are still top secret, but to my knowledge, they still p you know, use pretty much what he laid out for them.
And U I'm not sure we mentioned it already, but worth mentioning again. He won two silver stars, five bronze medals, and one Navy and Marine condemnation. Condemnation, So it's not that that's what he was there for.
He was if you know where those mets, know where those you know, where those medals were. Actually his wife, his wife put one or two of them up on the wall. But I'm not kidding a shoe, but I honestly, guy, there was a shoe box at the bottom of his death. I mean.
Yeah, he said he wasn't really too interested in them and showing them off.
And no, he had a dig. He had a dig dig through the you know the rubble there. Now, of course, you know you ask him about you know some you know, some stupid poster or not poster, but program from a Dallas Cowboy game, and you know you could find that real fast. So he was a big, a big Dallas Cowboy fan and being a New York Giants fan. I love to rib him and write him about that.
Now, when did this book come out? Jim? When was this book released?
The hardcover edition came out first, came out in January twenty twelve. We and the e book came out then too. The foreign edition started coming out soon after. We had a paperback at the beginning of this year, and then just a few weeks ago we came out with a
with a new edition, Chris Kyle Memorial Edition. Unfortunately, tragically, Chris and a neighbor and good friend to his, Chad Littlefield, were tragically murdered by a man or where it's alleged that they were murdered by a man uh back in February, and there was immediately after h Chris's death, and there was a tremendous you know, just outcry of you know, just people who you know, just of respect for Chris.
And in the memorial edition, myself and Tea Uh we talked to a lot of a lot of Chris's friends to try to get some of the other side for Chris. The book has a lot of you know, Chris as a warrior obviously, and has a lot of stuff about his marriage, but that was really only, you know, a
small part of who Chris Kyle was. And so we wanted to talk to friends of his who whom he'd helped and you know, everybody from people on you know, on the football, baseball teams that he helped coach, you know, all up to you know, to blind it, to wound it, you know, veterans who's you know, whom he had helped.
Now was this was he able to see the book? And ah did he? How much did he appreciate it or enjoy the I guess the interviews and subsequent interviews I did that happen for him?
The you know, when the first book came out. I think that you know, it was kind of a wild process for him. He uh, you know, when when he and I were talking, it was the first time he had really ever you know, talked about his experiences and put them, you know, into any sort of perspective, and I think it was very emotional. And when the book came out, he kind of had to do that all again. And I think it got easier as you know, as
time went on. But when it first came out, and there was so much hooplab about about who he was, people calling him hero, and that was a word he didn't particularly like, uh, especially when it's used for him, whether he was he deserved that, he didn't like to hear it youth. But yeah, I think there was you know,
a lot of stress for him. And gradually, you know, he was coming back to UH to a good place, you know, where you know, he was able to he is able to use some of it or he is starting he starting to use some of his fame to go to actually help people, and had was in the process of setting up what became of or what will become a foundation UH to help wounded warriors, you know, transitioned back into UH into society and also hopefully help help marriages of you know, servicemen who you know, just
to help their marriages, you know, continue and thrive despite the stress of war.
And what does theeas say from all of this?
Uh?
I mean, obviously have to get the newest and latest edition to see here some of her other thoughts. But overall, what was her impression of this? I mean, she loved this man, stayed with this man. Was it all worth it for her to be able to go through all this?
Well? You know, I think we all, I'm sure that we would all you know, want Chris back, There's no question about that. I think that. Yeah, she's a remarkably strong woman.
And.
She's you know, she's done a lot of things since Chris died. There were a number of speaking commitments that Chris had that she's fulfilled. Chris had been working on another book that unfortunately I wasn't available to to originally anyway to do the book, but Chris and another writer were working on American Gun, and Chris's part actually hadn't been finished at all when he died, and Tea actually Taya uh called me and I she and I uh took over what Chris would have done, and you know,
kind of got that book out. Uh. Taya's also uh started the foundation that that I was talking about Chris Kyle Frog and she's just you know, she's just done a remarkable thing or you know, just kind of carrying on his legacy and at the same time, you know, raising two two small kids. So you know, so it's pretty incredible. I would say that they were they were matching pretty well to two really remarkable people and really really you know, proud to t to call both of them my friend, really friends.
And uh, is there anything profound that you've learned by the end of this entire project helping this family get this story out and and of course now we just talked about and being deceased, so it's a very bittersweet. Is there anything profound that you learned from this, from the study of this incredible man in this incredible life and an incredible career.
Well, I think, you know, I think I'm still, to be honest, I think I'm kind of still processing it in a way. I think that you know, there's a lot of yeah, a lot of things that you can kind of you know, roll out and you know and say, and I I think they're The remarkable thing I think about Chris was that, you know, if there's a lesson to be drawn that anybody, anybody can actually end up doing heroic things if they you know, if they're if they just work hard at it, as I don't, you know,
cause I don't think that. As I said, Chris was a good shot to begin with, but he wasn't, you know, the best. He just worked at it. He Chris wasn't necessarily, you know, the the greatest, you know, helper in the world, and yet he helped so many people just because he just did it, and he just showed up and he just kind of he just was. That was who he was.
On the day of a day of uh, Hurricane Sandy, which you know wasn't really that all that bed specifically where I live, you know, he called me up at five o'clock in the morning and asked or I'm sorry, he texted me at five in the morning and and asked if I needed help, And he's like, go to bed, dude, you're up good up here, so you know, So, I mean, there's lots of lessons like that, and it's it's hard to kind of just draw one out and say, you know, and you know that, I mean, you know, the oldest
here's I I guess the the biggest cliche in the world is that you know, you don't know what you've got until they're gone, you know, and you just you know, just value value those friendships. Uh, you know, uh while
you you know, while you have 'em. We were we were digging around for photos, uh in the memorial edition as we wanted to put photos in, and you know, there's no photo of Chris and I together, which is you know, it's kind of funny and ironic, and you know it's like, no, we never you know, I never took No, I don't believe in taking pictures. You know, we just do stuff. And now I kind of wish I had a photo, but uh, that's the way it goes.
Yeah, well it's uh. He's an interesting and well fascinating character. He's you know, his his entire attitudes just totally uncompromising. He does have this incredible love for his country, his family, his friends. He's no saint, that's for sure. He's he's like a little little guy, like he's a teenager that almost didn't grow up sometimes, but he's mischievous, but in the end. Yeah, he's a hero. He's a guy that wants to protect people and and has the guts and
the gumption to do it. And he really loved the military. He like I say, he's uncompromising and unflinching. And what he said, he said, I enjoy doing this. And don't get me wrong, he says, there's you know, like no nightmares. So it's a it's a fascinating story of love for you know, a person that really maybe didn't want to show it, but he was a very loving and giving and generous person, a real soft guy, but a real
tough customer. And that's why he had the nickname the Devil, you know, you know translated in Iraq that that's the kind of the kind of guy he was. He was feared by those people in Iraq because of what he was capable of doing. I want to thank you very much, Jim for coming on and talking about American Sniper. I want to thank you very much. How can people get ahold of you? If they're they're inclined to contact you? And do you have web page? Uh website? Facebook?
The easiest way to jet me is through my website, which is Jim dfolies dot com. Uh, there's a there's a page where you can leave a message or email. You can email me at the author author at Jim Dfelice dot com is probably the easiest way. Uh. There's also I have a blog. There's an Amazon page. I tweet if you're if you really want your tweets, you can follow me on Twitter and uh there's a Facebook page and all that cool stuff.
Great. So I want to thank you very much Jim and hope to hear from you again soon. One another fascinating forward.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you, Thank you very much, Jim. Okay, night,