ALBERT FISH IN HIS OWN WORDS-John Borowski

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fully illustrated. Including confessions and other writings, includes never before seen documents handwritten by Albert Fish. Fish's own story of Weird Life, written by Albert Fish for the New York Daily Mere newspaper, from the files of doctor Wurdham, Fish's psychiatric examination and Rorschach test results Masks Have No Ears from doctor Frederick Wordham's book, The Show of Violence also includes court documents, correspondence, Grace Budd and Billy Gaffney, confessions,

newspaper excerpts, photographs, and Fish's vile letters. That we're featuring this evening is Albert Fish in his own words, with my special guest, filmmaker and author John Barrowsky. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for green to this interview. John Barowski, Hi, thanks.

a position to know about this and why. Again, you've just alluded to why you would want to write this book, But tell us how you became in a position to write this book, and how you knew about the files being released in twenty ten. Tell us a little bit about that.

it's fascinating. These early true crime stories are extremely fascinating. And that's why when I created my documentary feature films there focusing on pre nineteen forties serial killers, usually because of the lack of forensics, how long they may have gotten away with these crimes. So after I finished the film, which there was a there was research available. While I was making the film, there were books on Fish and

other information. And then of course from my film, I had interviewed experts and filmed some location footage of whatever's left since Fish and time period, and I had found out online that I had done researching, of course with doctor Wortham's files, and I had found out online that there were a portion of this files regarding Albert Fish that were sealed until twenty ten. So once twenty ten rolled around, of course I wanted to know what was

in these sealed files, and there was a wealth of information. Everything, as you stated in the opening from Fish's Rorshach test, where interestingly enough but not surprising. Everything he basically saw on the ink blots was you know, an ass or a penis or things that he was fascinated by, you know, being into smm man, you know, cannibalizing museum children in the nineteen twenties in New York City. But there were

also many other writings. There were confessions that Fish wrote in his own handwriting that I had never read before, and they had never been published. They were a little difficult to read because his handwriting was not easy to read, so I hired a transcriptionist to transcribe all of his letters. So throughout the book, there'll be a letter from Albert Fish and the transcription making it easy for readers to read.

But when I published my books on true crime, I do like to release the original files from my research because many authors write books, you know, on serial killers, and they give their own opinion. Some of them even say they're factual and they're true crime books. But some of these books, I've found things that were created, which you know, through my research, I could never find where they found these items that they added to the books. So there I found out that their true crime books

weren't one hundred percent true. So that's why again, when you're looking at original case files, you know, I don't

think you get you know, more truth than that. Sure, sometimes you know, the confessions maybe lies, but you know, I really don't put many newspaper excerpts in my books because once again, you know, the further back you go, the newspapers are kind of like the National Inquirer, and you really can't put too much research emphasis, you know, on those they were sensational, you know, so and I figured, you know, you know, get these scans of you know,

all of these documents and put this book together. So other researchs you know, could have all this material basically in one book without having to go to the Library of Condress or go to all these historical societies, you know, or between twenty and thirty dollars. You've got all this information in the book. And you know, some people may say, well, it's just the true crime case styles, but once again, you know, you can't find any other book that has

these materials in there. You have to do research, request materials, paid for copies, and that's pretty expensive. Like my first book on AHH. Holmes and strange case of doctor at Holmes. You know, I had many of those books, you know, scanned, and you know I paid hundreds of dollars, you know, to have all that information, and you know you can't find especially like AH Holmes, some of those books were from you know, the late eighteen hundreds. It's pretty much

impossible to actually find a copy of those. And through my diligent research, like for Homes, I had found the actual one of the actual original Homes title casebook and then Holmes' own story throwing two copies in the world that are still in existence, one at the Library of Congress and one at a Toronto library. So you know, again The whole idea is to share my research, you know, after you know I've made films on these serial killers.

The last biography I did of a serial killer was Carl pans Ram, and that's going to be my next book, but it's going to focus on his time at Leavenworth because interestingly enough, when you read the only book that's available one only book that's available on Carl pans Ram, which was written by Thomas Gaddis, who also wrote The Birdman of Alcatraz and then Jim Long, when you read that book, the whole second half of the book was

based on Robert Stroud's writings on Carl pans Ram. Because Robert Stroud, he wasn't the Birdman of Alcatraz, he was the Birdman of Leavenworth. He had the bird that Levenworth. So already that's not a true crime book, kido. And luckily for the Birdman of Eltcut Trash, Tom Gattis was smart enough to put in the front front of the book that some things were fictionalized. So Robert Stroud was

right across the cells directly. He had two cells for all his birds, but he was directly across the cell from Carl pans Ram, so he observed everything and he wrote everything. The writers of the book Killer of Journal of Murder, they did not have access to the federal files which I had access to. So once again, there are reasons why I want to publish a book on pans around that love and Worth, which really won't conflict with their book because their book has all of pans

Ram's writings in it. But I want to fill in a lot of that information of what happened at Levenworth, you know, the first federal pen country, and he was the first prisoner executed at a federal pen and pen country. So you know, again, we could go down on for hours on all these issues and there, you know, I'll I'll let you bring it back to the topic.

Albert Fish's troubled life. Take us back to he was born in eighteen seventy in Washington, but you talk about eighteen seventy five, his life becomes very very interesting and tell us about his father's death and the orphanage and the effect of what he did see and experience in that orphanage.

history and the time they grew up in. And you know, personally, my belief is, you know, these serial killers are mainly created by their environments. You know, there's all these different beliefs of it could be genetic, it could be brain damage, it could be a head injury, you know, you know their triggers. It could be abuse. But you know, the formative years, especially between seven and twelve, when these many of these children see or experience things that could be traumatic,

it doesn't necessarily have to be an abuse. But with Fish, it was twofold, so when he was in this orphanage, what they would do is to punish the children. They would strip the children naked, usually male, the male children, they would strip them naked and whip them on their bare behinds and force other children to watch this abuse going down. So through that Fish developed his SNM fantasies, and he even said it himself that at seven years old he had his first sex ceiling because he was

turned on by that. He was turned on by watching these kids abused and whipped, and he was turned on when it was you know, given to him as well.

So you know, you look at the rest of his entire life, it's no wonder that he's writing women and all these other people desiring for asking them to whip him and maybe he could do the same to them and going as extreme as possible, so, you know, and talking about Carl Panzram in a sense just to not go too far off topic, but you know, he was in a reform school and the same thing kind of

happened to him. You know that I found a punishment slip from red wing reform school where he was at, and on that punishment slip it said that he attempted to escape and the punishment was has Sustainking well, he that was his whole life over and over again. He would break out of prisons. He broke into a prison to rescue another prisoner. He got in, but he was caught. He actually broke into a prison. You know, he would break out of these prisons. Then he you know, would

be widthed and abused and tortured and electrocuted. And it's the same kind of thing. Pans Ram's whole life is on that one punishment slip. And that was the same thing with Albert Fish. So we see that how trauma and abuse could affect some of these children and maybe not affect others. There. Yeah, I'm sure there are many children we know. We know for a fact, you know, Kyl Panzram had a brother that turned out to be

a police officer. You know, some children, don't, you know, go to these extremes, but some have that fagile mentality. And Albert Fish is wanted me.

his family. We talked about some of the things he's learned in there, but the very first circumstances, how he got to the orphanage in the first place.

You talk about that his father died at five years old, his mother was working but still felt the need to put him in the orphanage. And you say he learned many of the deviations and paraphilias that he was afflicted by, we'll say, for lack of better term, were rooted in his stay at this institution here. When did he, as you write in a book, when did he get out? And what was his behavior like after this?

like from there from doctor Wortham. You know. The only thing I may have writtain was the foreword, you know, so you know, I know eventually he was released, and you know he did marry and had children and grandchildren, so you know, there there was a period of time where he was obviously on his own, and even when he was with his wife, he had felt restricted where he was, you know, felt he wasn't able to do ultimately all the things that you know he truly wanted

to do. And we'll get to that point later as well. But you know, eventually he did marry and supposedly, you know, his family said he never you know, harmed them or spoke you know, a bad word to them. He never swore, never made a hand to them. And you know that also fits in with his duality of serial killers where they can have a family and fool them at the same time they're doing these other devious acts.

What's that occupation that he eventually, even for a lifetime, develops this occupation that he undertakes.

of opportunity. Many times at that time period he said he would target you know, young African American male children because no one cared about them, which is a sad truth.

in a sense he thought that he was doing good by murdering these children before they were violated or raped by someone else and sending them straight to heaven. You know, he also associated very strongly with the story of Abraham and I that Abraham would kill his own child, you know, and he had part of the religious dementia. He said he would hear voices, you know, reading quotes from the Bible.

He would see Jesus and you know, have these visions where he but toughsy things like you know, dash it's their heads against the stone. And you know, he would take Bible verses and put them in different orders kind of, you know, in a way to create this pattern of you know, almost you know, creating what he really wanted

to do. So it was you know, and was he blaming it, We don't know, but I think it's you know, there if you look at his case and all his actions and especially his writings, especially as the Great Spud Letter, when at the end, you know, the last line what now you know, he obviously you know, kidnaps the girl, which you know he says he didn't because they let him take her, but you know, he murders her, cannibalizes her, but he makes sure that the last line of his

letter that you wrote to her mother says I did not fuck her, which is very important because that's okay that he didn't do that. But what about murdering and cannibalizing her? You know, that's fine, you know, And again that goes in with you know, the whole sex before marriage and possibly saving this child before she was violated by somebody else, and in his mind it got completely twisted. And that is one of the most extreme things about

Elberfish that again differentiates him from other serial killers. He committed all sorts of tortures on his body as penance for killing these children, you know, much like the Philagellons and the days of old who would whip their with themselves on their backs until they were bloody to absolve their sins. He did the same thing, but he took

it to huge extremes. You know, his son one time saw him beating himself bloody with a paddle that Albertfish treated himself, where he took this paddle and hammered all these nails into the end of it, and he would beat himself with that bloody. Man, that's nothing compared to the other things that he would do because you know, with at A and M, you know, it's pain is only relative, so they have to keep up in the

ante until it's even more extreme. Some of the most extreme things that he did was, according to Albert Fish himself, he would take a rose, you know, a rose, you know, you know, not the head of the rose, but you know the base of the rose. Yeah, yeah, with the thorns on it. And he said he would insert those into his penis with the thorns on those. And then he said he would also take a alcohol soaked gauze piece of gauze, insert it in the venus and light it.

He stick needles under his fingernails. Eventually, when he was apprehended, he told the authorities what he would do to himself as penance for killing these children, but they didn't believe him, so they took him to the hospital and took an X ray of his abdomen and twenty nine needles showed up on the X rays. So in his abdomen he was living, you know, as a medical marvel. He didn't die and nothing happened to in his internal organs. But when you look at that X ray, some of these

needles are a couple of inches or longer. I mean, you could see the eyes of the needles. It's just, you know, so again this man not only you know, love to hear the tortures and cries of children. That's what he got off on. You know, I don't believe he you know, raped every child. Some of these children he even set himself that, you know, he just wanted to torture them and hear their cries and screams, you know. And you know, you see that with other serial killers,

they want to get a reaction from their victim. But that's what's most extreme about elber Fishes. You know, in addition to being the cannibal and the serial killer, he was also you know, into this masochism where he you know, couldn't have enough pain sit on himself.

on society and everyone and the victims. But what happens in his marriage. He's married to this woman. They have six children. There again, they're not they're struggling. But one day he sees the dog and suspicious about the dog and maybe and then there's an attic in the home. So tell us what this inquisitive Albert Fish does and the dog and his family life with the six children we're talking some small young children and his wife of many years ten years or so.

wasn't into it. It wasn't her thing. So you know, that's how he you know, kind of began, and he may have been doing some of these you know senem fantasies with other people at that time. And you know, he started late in life. You know, many serial killers, you know, by the time there, you know, anywhere between. You know, I've known I'm young as what fourteen to you know, eighteen or in the early twenties, they're committing

the serial killer killings. But you know, Fish really didn't start, you know, actual killings until you know, probably his forties and fifties, you know, which is unusual. That's another thing that's unusual about Albert Fish. So since his wife wasn't into these things, you know, Albert Fish goes to the attic, he was led there by the dog, and he finds another man up in the attic and this is the man that his wife has been cheating with him on and she had him in the attic of the house.

And Albert Fish, you know, kind of meekly didn't even you know, do much about it, you know. And in the end what happened is his wife, Albert Fish, Albert Fish went with the children and took them to a movie and he came back. He came back home, and everything in the entire apartment was gone, everything, the wife was gone, furniture was gone, clothing was gone. I think he said there was only like a penny in the bathtub, or not even that. He said it was entirely empty.

You know. So his wife was sick of everything he was doing. You know, she couldn't deal with it anymore, and she just up and locked the man away with with oping them. And that's Alberd Fish attributes that incident of his wife leaving him and the trauma that he experienced to what he said, you know, his world opened

at that point. He was free to do whatever he wanted, which means, you know, even move for further towards his even more stadistic fantasies and not just these esson and play, but you know, moving into murdering and raping young children.

he really like in that regard to those children. And again as a result you see this one of the daughters testifying at his child trying to save his life.

sneaky and conniving. He was a little bit more of a connat. So I'm sure he was intelligent enough to under stand that if he were to do anything to his children, even if he wanted to, it would all be over. You know, he'd be discovered, and he wanted to continue doing what he was doing. So you know, these serial killers aren't just you know, monsters with you know, green flesh and horns on the head or just mumbling

you know fools there. You know, many of them are you know, obviously intelligent enough to you know, be a con man and elber Fish, you know, and especially when he met the grace the Budge family, that's where he brought all his common skills, you know, came to a head.

So you know, he he didn't harm his child and any of his children, and he raised them well, you know, I mean they saw strange things, they would say sometimes they you know, he'd want he'd want them to play horsey with him and jump on his back and hit him hard and is behind like he was a horse, you know. And there's a little that stuff too, you know. And his son did say he saw him beating himself with that board with the neil studded boord, but didn't

do anything about it. But you know, you're you're talking about you know what early nineteen hundred psychiatries in its infancy. They probably didn't even know where to go, you know.

And there was a point, as you mentioned, that Albert Fish was writing these fake checks and you know, and you know he was writing these nasty letters, and you know, he was arrested and he did have some psychiatric you know help, like at belw in some other places, but he was always released, you know, because again I think his con conning nature. He knew what to tell these psychiatrists. Again, maybe not a genius level, but definitely you know, you know, commm. Yeah.

family too. I listen, I'm a single dad. Again, would seem admirable, I have six children, and then that story. So so he did move around to not arouse suspicion, and when the heat was on, he moved around out of the area.

So he did. And I actually found that ad and it's in my film, and you know, it was just you know, he he created a whole fake story. Of course, you know, said he was an elderly man and he owned a farm, and he's got money and he needs, you know, a young man to come out to his farm and help them with things, and he'll gladly pay this young man. So the Bug family was somewhat destitute,

poor family. You know, they had, I believe it was three or four children and one of So the Bud family basically responded to this ad because Grace's brother, you know, was kind of this large, strapping, you know, young man, especially for his age, he was kind of large. Well, when Albert Fish arrived at the house or their apartment, actually their little tenement apartment, he saw the brother and

realized that he could be overtaken by this kid. There's no way that you know, there's a limit that you know, Albert Fish could you know, strangle children. But you know, this was a big boy that he wouldn't be able to take, you know, basically advantage of us. So while he's there, he realizes that that he makes small talk with the Buds, he flashes cash. He made sure to bring cash to Flash so he could seem as if he was rich and on this firom, which he did.

And so he basically calmed them. But then you know what he said, he said, you know what, I'm going to go. I'll come back another day and we could, you know, finish the talks and secure the deal. Because at that time, again he saw this young boy. But while he was there at the first visit, he saw their daughter, Grace Budd, who was ten years old. Now, Grace Budd had a short bob haircut. She kind of looked like a little boy, and so Fish became enamored

by her. You know, she sat on his lap, and again he just looked like this kind grandfather that no one would suspect he would do anything or even be able to do anything if he had an opportunity to. So on the second visit, when Albert Fish came back, he had us all planned out. He said, well, you know what, I'm still going to take your son on my farm, but why don't I take your daughter, Grace because my granddaughter is having a birthday party for the

kids and it's going to be great. And he told her it was at a certain intersection, and shockingly, the family let this stranger take their daughter away from them. Now, people always ask me, why why would he do Why would that family let him do this. You know, why would they allow the growth go. I think it was desperation because they knew eventually, let this happen, He's got money, He's going to take care of us later. That's how

desperate the times were. People don't realize how when we have everything from cell phones and video games, the cars, you know, how bad it really was in early America and how difficult it was to survive. But that's why I think they allowed the daughter to go. There was a little repropoire, you know, with this man. But then guess what, they leave and she doesn't come back, and then they look up the street address that Albert Fish gave them and it didn't even exist. The intersection didn't exist.

So that was pretty much it. And then after that there was even a fake trial for another man named Pope, where the mother, Delia Budd you know, said as a witness statement, you know, saw him in a lineup and said that's the man. But it was a wrong man. And that's why you can't rely one hundred percent on witnesses either. So they had this whole trial, only in the end to realize this wasn't Albert Fish, the man who took her daughter. So they still can't find the daughter.

But there was tried and true detective work in this case. And that's what I love and fascinates me also about these early cases such as the detective in the home story and this detective, Detective King, that he was trying to find, you know, this little girl for years and years. So his idea came about knowing that you know, this killer would place ads in the newspapers. He said, well, you know, let's and this was about six years later, four or six years later after her abduction, they still

never found her. So Detective King said, well, let's put an ad in the newspaper. And Walter Winchell, who was a gossip columnist, you know, in the in the newspaper, so maybe this killer read it. We'll mention something about Grace Budd again, you know. So Albert Fish did read this.

So what he did was he was compelled to write a letter and send it to Grace Budd's mother, Delia, describing in detail of when he came to the apartment, how he took their daughter, where he took her, not in specific detail, but they took her out to the country, and that he basically strangled her and took her home and cannibalized her. And he told in detail how he made us stew and baked parts of her body. And this is a letter to her mother. Yeah. So, interestingly enough,

here's the tried and true detective work. The envelope that was that the letter was sent in, there was you know, a location, a return address on the envelope. So after tracing that letter head back, they found out that someone was staying in this boarding house that had access to the actual envelopes. And they went and they saw some of these envelopes, and it just happened by circumstance that Detective King went to the owner of this boarding house and said, you know, there was an old man blah

blah blah, do you know about this? And then the owner of the boarding house said, oh, yeah, he doesn't live here anymore, but guess what, he's going to be here in a day or two to pick up a check. So Detective King said, call me immediately when he's here, And sure enough he gets a call that Albert Fish is there. He walks in and sees this kind of old man sipping tea like nothing happened, and he apprehends him.

You know, there's some different stories about the Elbert Fish put up a struggle or tried to kill himself at that point, but you know, again it's difficult to tell what happened to say, Elbertfish just went, you know, along with the detective kam no problem. So you know, this monster was caught. But then the world was really able to find out about all these horrors you know that this elderly cannibal inflicted because Albert Fish tells them what he did to little Grace Bud and they go up

to h was called Osteria. It's upstate New York, and I actually found the house that he murdered her. And still there, the actual house that he murdered Grace Budd in. So he told them to go there, and the detectives went, and sure enough, in an out house, he found the skull of Greape Spud and there were some body parts, and you know, they realized that he was telling the

true story. Even though they didn't have any evidence on any other children, that children that you know, he raped and or murdered, they knew there were probably many others, who knows, dozens hundreds because of all his travels We'll never know, but we do know he murdered grape Bud and that's what he was put on trial for and ultimately, you know, executed.

you know, a cover of were wolves. They called him a werewolf of mysteria because he drank blood, and you know, the cannibal of New York and you know, all these names I mean, it was just and of course, you know, focusing on all the lower details, like you know, in their court room when you know the the children of the buzzs met the children of Fish, you know, and how they embraced each other and cried, and you know,

because you know, we don't realize that. Yes, we know that families of the victims suffer, but you know, the families of the murderers suffer too, because you know, they they're finding out that their loved one is now a serial killer. And there is even a wider net that

it casts. Recently, I interviewed Barry Vashelley for my TV show Serial Killer Culture TV, and he was John Wayne Gacey's childhood friend, and I had him on camera crying saying that he has PTSD, that why wasn't there anything he could have seen when you know they were friends and he has to live with this fact. So it affects many people, you know, and it was definitely a whole media sensation, you know, the fact that you know, he was into SMM and they found these bile letters

that he would write to women. Plus they found you know, everyone's outrage that he was in the system and he was released. You know at least two or three times in mental hospitals and was released. Why did that happen? You know, these things still go on today, of course, but imagine back then how easy it was.

take pieces of their flesh and cannibalize himself. But he would also sell pieces of their flesh at the market, you know, as as just meet you know. And that's how difficult the times were at that, you know period. When I went through one of the most shocking things I discovered when I went through all of Wortham's file, there was a letter where Wortham wrote to someone else and saying Vish was fascinated by this character HH Holmes. I had no idea that. You don't hear that ever

in any other writing. I've never heard that, but it was just to me having done a film on homes, you know. But again, you know, you see some of these serial killers have a fascination and want to be like some of their predecessors BTK. AHH Holmes was a hero to BTK. He wanted to be like him, and you know, and that's why I was part of that

investigation into BTK. They subpoenaed my record of everyone in Wichita that bought my HH Holmes DVD, thinking that the BTK killer might have bought one, and you know, yeah, it's you know, it's fascinating. But then there are some of these serial killers that probably live their day to day life and don't know about this whole history of serial killers that it's just you know, an urge that they have to compelling ergs, they have to satisfy.

can see that. Yet again, it's hard to it's hard to outdo HH Holmes and Albert Fish, but it seems like other people are at least doing it in other ways with numbers rather than.

ten or a hunter. You know, they would say a couple dozen. But as you could see, you know, as we move forward in time, especially with like Henry Lucas some others and hundreds, now you know, yeah, whether or not we can crew.

and this trial was nineteen thirty five. So let's talk about doctor Wurdham and his examinations of Albert Fish and what Albert Fish said, and we talk about you talk about in this book six Confessions, and some of these details are well there's no more graphic detail than this, So tell us about this.

to figure out what makes the serial killer. You know, these were the you know, the early predecessors of the mind hunters, you know, which came about in the sixties

and seventies. But you know, he had many conversations with Elbert Fish and if it wasn't for doctor Wortham, we may not have known all of these details, you know, because he did publish chapter in the Masks have no years where you know, that's like the most thorough and in depth you know, uh description of what Fish had told uh wordom there and reasons how and why would he did? You know, which were very important, you know, and you know, it's it's fascinating that we have that record.

One of the things that you know struck me as amazing is at that time period, you know, they call them perversions, you know, these mental disorders, so doctor Wortham admitted that they actually had to they had to create new perversions for Albert Fish because that's you know, there he I think it was over a dozen, like thirteen or fourteen that when you read my book, there's the list of perversions at the beginning of the book, and

that basically shows you he did everything. Drank urine, eight feces, drank blood, you know, sm m. I mean, anything imaginable you could think of, he did it. So they had to create some of those that weren't on the books

at that time. Yeah. Yeah, And the biggest thing at all, you know, go ahead, no, go ahead, the you know, the whole myth of the electric chair shorting out, which people still want to believe because it is a cool myth, you know, it's this urban legend that you know, one newspaper may have reported that, and I was never find I was never able to find out which newspaper reported it, but it was said that one newspaper reported that Albert Fish shorted out the electric chair on the first attempt

because he had all these needles in his fot. Well, it's just not true, you know. I found the book of the sin scene executioner, who pulled the switch, who wrote in his book nothing unusual happened. It was over a matter of minutes. You know, I interviewed an expert at the University of Wisconsin Electrical Department that would say, you know, the needles wouldn't have done anything. But yet people still want to believe it. They still post these things on the internet. And then any time I try

to tell them the truth, they don't believe me. They don't want to hear the truth because it's such an interesting urban ment. So I just believe it.

was more than Grace Budd killed. Uh, tell us yea more about doctor Wurthham's conclusions and then and then tell us again, which is really he was hired by the defense. So tell us how in his estimation, why in his estimation that he's legally insane tell us about that.

And doctor Wortham said it was apparent, you know, that Albert Fish was insane, you know, by between the voice is that he heard the visions that he had, you know, which were both religious, you know, you know, in texture to the fact of all these perversions that he did, that he has to be insane. Sure, he could function on a day to day basis, but doctor Wortham said

he was insane, you know. And he was found guilty and sentenced to be executed basically for revenge, you know, and that's a problem our society still has that you know, society wants you know, Tom de Flesh, you know, as revenge, and that's what we did with Albert Fish. We executed him when we should have put him in an insane asylum. And you know, the one interesting quote is from Fish's attorney, James Dempsey, where he said this, you know, ruling proves that,

you know, witches are still burned in America. Basically that he was a target and he was found to be sane just so he could be executed or revenge of society for what he did to this little girl. And I mean, I understand the outrage, you know, I mean, I understand that, But on the other coin, the other side of the coin, I think there might be something

to learn from these people. And I feel as a society, how can we advance if we don't study them to try and figure out why they're doing these things.

a crime of passion? Did you know a husband find out his wife's cheating and he hits her over the head and murders her. That's something different. So you know, when it gets, you know, into all these legalities, that's where it gets, you know, pretty complicated. And they, you know, they the newspapers, I believe, were trying to prove that

point that you know, these were premeditated murders. And even though he had all these different snem fantasies and proclivities, he was still you know, a set mind of right mind that he you know, could get up, you could call himself. He knew what he was doing. He made these decisions consciously, and he should be executed. So there's always those two sides of the coin, and we still deal with that today. You know, that was Dahmer. You know, could he have been putting in the sane hospital or

a prison, you know, that's the that's the thing. And interestingly enough, he's put in the prison where he's murdered.

So that's the standard, because they do fear that it's a slippery slope that everybody can be considered, because you know, it's very interesting at this time in nineteen thirty five, and listen, I find fascinating is that despite the family saying, look at this guy was normal, he was a good father, and then he had this very very traumatic event with the mother leaving, taking all the furniture, moving out, with

the border, leaving the young chure destitute. That this certainly would have been taken into consideration a mitigating factor, you know, But what they were also doing is that what I found fascinating, Doctor Wordam. Even though he had Fish's own

confessions of prior murderous behavior. He talked about one time where he would have killed the child, but there was too many cars going by, so he really didn't get an opportunity with doctor Wurdham's conclusion that he certainly killed more people than Grace Budd and he certainly it was easy for him to conclude that there were maybe one hundred children attacked. And yet he still was in his book, in his writings, in his defense on the stand adamant

that he was legally insane. I find that very very interesting, and also that he's saying that again, twenty five percent he said of the population was psychopathic in his mind, which I thought that blew my mind. Did somebody be talking about that in nineteen thirty five. That sounds like a pretty new concept.

what these types of people were at the society. You know, we had seen them probably more and you know, on the frontier and things like that. But becoming a civilized society and then seeing there were these some people that could murder over and over again. I think people didn't

know what to make of it. And these were these were the inceptions, the beginnings of the psychology, and you know, the law enforcement aspect and the legalities of dealing with these type of people would say, you know, it's fascinating. That's why I enjoyed these early cases because every angle you look at them, historical, forensic psychology, it's just fascinating.

And a lot of these early criminals got away with it for much longer, you know, than you know, some of our modern ones, because of course video cameras, lack of DNA and prinsic you know, even finger printing, you know, was in its infancy.

and none of them as dangerous. Just to demonstrate he said that that Albertfish somehow had slipped through the net again to say, again, I'm surprised that there was that he thought there was that much of a safety net in psychiatry and in hospitals that time.

I mean, plus he could tell right mong but that should have overridden the fact that he had these essenm fantasies and you know, these other things that he was doing, you know, and he may have used the you know, and that's the thing too. In the end, we never know if these people are telling the truth. You know, when he was arrested, he could have made up the fact that he saw, you know, Jesus coming to him and he heard these things. You know, we don't know,

you know, we don't know. It's they're very fascinating stories and you know, early glimpses into the mind of serial killers, you know. And of course Frederick Worthim went on to be hated by comic book lovers because he went on a whole high rade against the vault of horror entails from the crypt comic books, saying, these are diseasing the mind of our children and corrupting them. And you know, he caused those comic books basically to fold, so he

became the poster boy. He eventually later he did apologize before his death, but people still, you know, have a lot of distaste for him. But you know, and that's another thing too. You know, we we even go through that now with these shooters and saying, wow, they're still doing it as these violent video games, these violent movies. But you know, studying Jesse Pomeroy, who is the subject of my next film. You know, in eighteen seventy four,

he was fourteen when he murdered two little children. So what are you going to blame it on in eighteen seventy four. You can't blame it on radio, TV, movies, video games. But they blamed it on the dying novels. There's always got to be something those violent dying novels, you know, So again I think we got to start blaming it and looking at studying these people.

over Fish was the original stranger danger. There wasn't that type of thing in the nineteen twenty. It's in early New York. You know, these kids would play on the street, parents would be in their house or who knows where, the kids would just be doing their own thing. I mean, these were little children, you know, So the mother comes out of the apartment and he's one of the kids, her child but not the other one. Says, well, where's

Billy Gaffney. And then the little boy pointed up to the fire escape leading to the roof and said, the Boogeyman took him. So Albert Fish was really the original Boogeyman as well. And I was in that tenement apartment hallway and saw that fire escape. It's in my film that he took him out of. Now, again, we can't prove that that. Albert Fish says that he took the boy and he took him to a secluded place by the breakers dump and started cutting parts of his body off,

and you know all these things. So you know, just looking at that and the murder of cannibalism of Grace Bud, you could see how much more he could have done. And I would say minimum doesn't We'll just never know.

from supporting them. And at that trial did they No.

the Fox Hollow farm. I always forget his name, Herb Boummeister. Now you know Herb Baummeister. I think it was in

the seventies or eighties. He was married and had children, and then he had a home called Fox Hollow in the country in Indiana, and he would go to gay bars, pick up young gay men, take them back to Foxhowe and strangle them, burger them and wind up throwing you know, their body parts, you know, in the woods behind it, and eventually that led to his apprehension because his children went out there and found these skulls and bones, and that's when the police were called. And you know, he

took off and he ultimately, you know, committed suicide. So they never really found out exactly what happened. But to this day, his wife and children still say he didn't do those things. Not my husband, not our father. There's no way, even though there were all the evidence was there, the skulls, the bones. So it's very interesting, you know, I mean, and that's one thing too, you know, you

know how far does your love go? And you see in many of these cases too that you know, the parents or siblings, you know, they will stand byther side. I mean, that happened with Jesse Palmroy too. His mother was there and she tried to get him, you know, released or or you know, released from solitary at least, and she wrote letters and did whatever she could. It was probably her fault that he murdered the two little children, because she pleaded with the reform school to let them

out early. They did, and of course at that time they didn't alert the authorities that he was released. So many he murdered two little children because the authorities thought he was still in reform school. Yeah.

actual document. These are source documents and letters Albert Fish, his handwriting, and again amazing black and white photos of everything, including even the electric chair. It is very, very a great edition. So I want to thank you very much for that. I also want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about Albert Fish in his

own words. We talked. I mentioned that you're a filmmaker, and you did talk about a couple of films and other two prime books, and you deal with just the most serious of these serial killers with your films and with your books. For those people that might want to take a look at your other work, to have a website, Facebook page, how can they take a look at some of the other stuff. We just hinted that today.

serial killers and why they are. And then I took that concept and created a TV show which is on Amazon Prime, serial Killer Culture TV, which is episodic, so each episode, the second season is coming out hopefully in a couple of weeks. I'm still working with Amazon to get that up, but then it will be twelve episodes. You know, each episode's focuses on, you know, like one is Gacy's Brain, another one is Peter Curtain's head at

the Ripley's Museum in Wisconsin. So all fascinating topics. And then my books are on Amazon as well, the Albert Fish, ed Gen Dahmer's Confession, and the Strange Case of ah Tolms.