AGAINST HER WILL-Ronald J. Watkins

Only five doors away, in the home of John and Elizabeth Gallub, police found Kelly Ann's body stuffed in a plastic garbage bag. She'd been brutally beaten, stabbed, strangled, and mutilated. After weeks of intense investigation, police arrested the Gallub's twenty one year old son, Robert, a reclusive young man obsessed with bodybuilding and given to fits of rage. The sensational trial and subsequent conviction of Robert Gallub shocked the nation

and tore the once peaceful community apart. Neighbors took sides, so did the media, and no one who lived on Horton Road would ever be the same. Acclaimed journalist Ronald J. Watkins takes you into the dark heart and the idyllic American suburb where the savage murder of a young girl

shattered the innocence of a town forever. The book this evening that we'll be discussing is Against Her Will by Ronald J. Watkins, And hopefully Ronald J. Watkins is ready on the phone, but we don't have Ronald J. Watkins, so we have a problem. So anyway, that's the outline of the book, Against Her Will. Very well written, very fast paced, lots of twists and turns, no foregone conclusions

in this book whatsoever. Ronald J. Watkins is an author of I believe thirty books, not all of them true crime, some I guess fictional crime novels, but he has done a fair amount of true crime as well, and this book is an excellent read. Against Her Will by Ronald J. Watkins. I apologize for the confusion on last week's program with Wensley Clarkson. I did not realize that Wensley Clarkson resided

in London. I don't know, not to blame anyone, but in my emails, I'm very clear that the guests need to call into a New Jersey number or a US number to be able in order to facilitate this interview, as do I as well. We both call into a number I believe in New Jersey and that's the main switchboard, and that's the way these interviews are facilitated. Now, people

living in London. If I were to know that, and they were to realize that this is the call they need to make is into a US number, then that long distance call might be quite prohibitive. So my apologies for not finding out where he was residing. I just assumed he was an American author since he was published by Kensington Press, and most of those authors reside in America, not all of them, obviously, so I'm not sure if

he is a former resident of the US. But regardless, I apologized for last week's scheduled interview with Wensley Clarkson with his excellent book A Child's Prey. Hopefully we may have him on at another time, but I'm not sure of that. We are still looking to get confirmation. I believe that Terry Sullivan, the prosecutor for Killer Clown, is still scheduled to come on the program, but he was and is very heavily involved in the Casey Anthony case, and I'm sure he would like to speak to people

about that case as well. So that case seems to be going on and is quite lengthy. And have had one guest talk about the Casey Anthony case with her book, Diane Fanning, So we have covered that case so far, but now they're in the trial that was the first book.

It was very quite odd that I found where there had not been a actual conviction or allusion to the trial, and yet there was still a book out published already which based on speculation more than obviously the conclusion to a trial or from a conviction or some other conclusion to that trial, like I had said. So it was quite an interesting development because Kensington, as I know, has a rule of not dealing or publishing or wanting to deal with cases that have not had a resolution in

the courts. So I would think that that would be probably a general rule, and it seems to be. If there is anything that is happening that a lot of cases that receive the immediate television coverage, for example on

Fox or CNN. I think what the publishers are responding to is that people will focus on a certain case for a certain period of time, but then that case and that subsequent interest but will be replaced by another case that will replace that one, usually more dramatic or more salacious or more sensational than the previous one, and then we seem to forget some of the cases, incredible cases,

incredible crimes, and incredible stories. So I think what the publishers are trying to do is capitalize on that interest at the time that people are still interested in, capitalize on that and put out their book at that time rather than waiting because sometimes they can be considerable time between arrests and convictions for various reasons, and people tend not to have long memories. I apologize for not having

my guest Ronald J. Watkins on the line. Sometimes the Central Standard time that I am in the zone I'm in is confusing to some people. Again, I'm going to make it a standard to convert the time so that they know exactly in their time zone what time they are to call the program. Sometimes there are legitimate delays.

I'm asking for these very very busy journalists and authors and sometimes lawyers and people with law practices and investigative companies to take out of their crowded schedule to come on my program for an hour and talk about their books. So I really do appreciate the time that they do

put forth to be able to do these programs. And I apologize for those that tuned into the program to listen to a live program with an author that they had already saw the show description and we're anticipating an interview with that author, so we'll all if you can put up with me for a little bit, we'll just wait.

And I've sent an email to and maybe he's just a little bit behind, and I'm hoping he will join us very soon and we can talk about his book that I'm prepared to discuss very again well written book.

A lot of true crime is there's varying degrees of writers, and I find that in my experience that a lot of writers that are as Ronald Jay Watkins demonstrates in his book his vast experience even writing the thirty Books gives him a expertise of sorts, but also his background, investigative background, and so he is really I think brings that to the book itself and to his writing, and

so you have a very detailed book. But at the same time, there is so many He's picked a great story and with his access, there's so many twists in turns that you virtually are It's very much like a fictional story in the twists and turn and sitting on the edge of your seat and some of the things that you thought were foregone conclusions, so surprises and when things are revealed, and very very good in characterizing and drawing us into the characters and also painting a very

graphic picture of what this crime really entails, because many murders are obviously there's no nice murder, and they're all graphic and disturbing and horrible and terrible. But there are some killers that for various reasons, when you're talking mutilation, when you talk torture, when you talk you talk of those kinds of crimes, when it's just not murdered, there is much more. It's even more repulsive and disturbing and horrible.

And this murder has some of those elements, especially given when you're talking about a relatively young man a que of this murder, and we'll find out. Like I say, it's amazing that there are no foregone conclusions in this book. It's very interesting how it's constructed, but also how the story on wines as well. What may look like a fairly easy case to conclude isn't at all for very good reasons. And so it's a very interesting take on a case. And I hope we get Ronald On to

discuss it very soon. Anyway, next week, if you're going to tune in again, I apologize for this slip up. Next week, Ron Francell and he is the author of many true crime books, including the classic The Darkest Night, and his latest book is Delivered from Evil. And these are tales from mass murderers, survivors of mass murders, people who refuse to die, who had a survival instinct, people that fought hard and long to survive and live to tell the tale and were and have told the tale.

And Ron Francell, an excellent journalist and author, a best selling author and a real favorite among true crime fans, is going to do a book that's quite unique even for him, and tackles a subject not really dealt with too often at all. So it's a multiple it's a many stories of different survivors, not just one survivor, of different survivors of mass murder. And that book is called Delivered from Evil, and that's Ron Francell've been very excited

to have him on. He is, like I say, a big favorite among true crime readers and gets consistently great reviews on True Crime book reviews and Amazon book reviews. He's a big He's a great writer, and this story sounds fascinating and I haven't started it yet, but I'm looking forward to reading it starting tomorrow, and I'm sure we'll have a great interview about his latest book, his

latest and greatest book, Delivered from Evil. After that, we have let me see, we have Anthony D. Stefano and he's going to be talking about King of the Godfathers, so we talked. I talked about that a couple of weeks ago. We're going to do a couple organized crime stories. And then there's another veteran organized crime expert, Danny Griffin. He has a show on blog talk radio as well, and I want him to come on and talk about

the Vegas mob. It's not some mob stories that I have read about myself, and so he has the inside scoop and the behind scenes story about vague mobsters. So that's Denny Griffin, veteran journalist and veteran law enforcement officer, person involved in the legal system, so he has a vast experience as well in his take on the Las Vegas mafia and mobsters. And after that we have Kevin Sullivan. We're going to be talking about the Bundy murders. He's

written and done extensive research on further Bundy murders. One of the most famous serial killers ever, certainly one of the most interesting, charismatic and fascinating and infamous and deranged serial killers of all time, Ted Bundy, and Kevin Sullivan has written an amazing book talking about other crimes and other things of interest to all people who may be interested in ten but ten Bundy. Of course I've spoken

of this before. The definitive book about Ted Bundy is obviously while I must read is The Stranger Beside Me by and Rule a fantastic book, and probably the way I got hooked on true crime is by reading that book. Now a major, major bestseller and one of the most the biggest, probably in the top while it is in the top five two crime books of all time and

Rules Stranger Beside Me. Kevin Sullivan has done this research and provided much more information and a different different perspective than Stranger Beside Me obviously, and Rule worked with Ted Bundy and included all those feelings and all that interaction and all that perspective, and Kevin Sullivan comes from a completely different perspective to talk about Bundy murders, more and new information, still very very shocking and essential must read

as well, because Bundy really does deserve as many books as you're able to find on Ted Bundy, So that's

going to be fantastic. I have a couple more cases as well that I'm gonna be talking about that I just got turned onto as well, and one of those is a woman named Jeanie mcdonna, and Jeanie McDonough and her husband overpowered a killer that was about to slit their daughter's throat, and it ended up the killer was a serial killer who had killed a couple of other women and attacked another one, So they ended up being

the reason they helped capture a serial killer. In their book is called Caught in the Act and it's by Genie mcdonaugh and paul I Hope. I don't get this wrong, but Lenardo. So anyway, that's going to be May eleventh, that's going to be Genie McDonough, an excellent book from again a different perspective to almost potential victims that fought hard to overpower this killer and end up cracking the case by their actions, saving their daughter and also capturing

a serial killer. And so the very heroic efforts. And now we'll have a book that very very interesting perspective of her husband and herself and another author talking about how this happened and how they brought this serial killer to justice. So that's Caught in the Act. I have another book that I'm going to be discussing as well. Kim Cantrell from True Crime Book Reviews introduced me to an author. It's about another serial killer. Let me see.

It is about Michael Griesbach or Greisbach. I'm not sure how to pronounce this, but g r I E. S. B Acch. This is the story of the serial killer. I apologize for this, but anyway, it's about a serial killer and the perspective of this author in finding and having this the hunt for this serial killer and the investigation into this serial killer. I apologize for not having that title in front of me, but it's I will

get back to you. That's from May eighteenth. So there are a lot of programs to look forward to in the near future, and so stay tuned. And again I apologize for this this step with this guest this evening, and I just look and he's still not on the air. So if anybody were to like to want to desire to call in to give me any requests or ask any questions about anything about my book Trophy Kill, or about any other I'll tell me guests or any guests

that I've already interviewed. I have been getting some requests for me to look into books that listeners have requested, so I appreciate that, and again I will look into those authors and see if they're available if they like to come on the program. And I appreciate any ideas on programs in the future concerning books that you have read and you think will be great interviews for the

program itself. Now, what I also wanted to talk about too, is that what I've said a couple of years ago, and I've mentioned a couple of times when I've had the chance to editorialize here, is that what was interesting to me is that I've see development in my idea that true crime is going mainstream, especially television and to a lesser degree, I guess Hollywood. My information was based on watching The Zodiac and how big that movie was, and also Capodi, and also that there was two movies

about Capodi and in Cold Blood. You know, of course, In Cold Blood probably the biggest selling true crime book ever. But what I'm finding is that we see some breakthroughs with Kensington author, and she's published with other publishing companies as well. But a well known true crime author, Aphrodite Jones, has a program on ID Discovery Channel, and so that's an interesting leap from true crime author to television. Another author that was on my program, M William Phelps, has

made the leap as well, being involved in television. And the program is still in the creative process, but they're very well into it and it's going to be serial killer stories, unsolved serial killer stories and I guess those profiles and he'll be hosting and involved in the production of this and involved in a big way in the production of this and taking it from again, taking his writing experience in true crime considerable experience, and putting this

and getting involved in making the crossover into mainstream or at least television, which I'll expand an audience for again this medium, I believe. What I did also see as well as Corey Mitchell, another veteran true crime author, hosting a panel at the south By Southwest Music indiean film festival in Texas. Austin, Texas, I believe, But anyway, the

south By Southwest, it's many years it's been running. Anyway, he had a panel with people that again had a background in true crime, who had made successful movies and or television programs involving true crime and some of the

biggest true crime stories. And the gist of the panel was, and this was just a couple of weeks ago, is that you know how for true crime authors to make the transition and what the audience is, you know, the whole situation that faces the writer and the potential opportunities. I believe, I guess in that some of these people are making there's so many channels, there's so many opportunities.

You can see some of the same things that happened years ago come back, you know, and horror movies are back. I'm over fifty years of age, so I could see what was happening in the seventies, what was happening in comics, what was happening magazines, what was happening in movies Hollywood A movies, B movies in what was happening in literature.

So you're seeing some of the same things. Because this true crime is a genre that goes up and down in terms of popularity like some other things have as well. But I think that the popularity for true crime is expanding, and I think it is going to cross over and you're going to see more television and film adaptations of great stories, very much like some of the ones that I'm doing on my program, some of the characters like

John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer. To a certain degree, you know, there is no fictional equivalent of

these stories. You know, even criminal minds seems to have so many logical reasons why some of these people kill, and they seem to be organic brain disorders or traumatic events these people's lives, and you know that's and then as a result, they profile these people and not to say they don't just you know, also showcase just evil characters as well, But there seems to be a fair amount of explanation, which includes insanity and trauma for these

people killing. And in my experience with true crime, I am amazed at how many psychopathic killers there are in all kinds of instances. People that have the capacity to kill their parents for no reason whatsoever, people that are able to kill children, or you know, the list goes on and on. I don't have to repeat it for you.

But the lack of conscience, remorse, our capacity to kill, may mutilate, display, laugh, not consider these people as anything but just trash is unfortunately a reoccurring theme in true crime. There doesn't seem to be so many the Burn Farm, which is one of the last programs I did. Burn Farm. You know, that woman was insane, but whether she stays in a mental institution or whether she's in prison would

make very little difference. You could say, well, we could help that person out an insane assam where they deserve to be an insane and som rather than a prison. Somehow, I just don't think it's going to make that much difference, And as a result, you know, I can't see much of a debate on this, but certainly that woman exhibited

what I would consider it to be insane you know, characteristics. Absolutely, However, I mean the rationales if you're capable of doing something, if you lose said, if you try to cover up your tracks or.

they certainly do. And I think that's the main point when you're dealing with cold blooded killers. That's what people want, and that's what people expect, is to get the full extent of the law hand it to these people in terms of sentencing. Now we still don't have Ronald J. Watkins. Maybe he thought it was an hour different. I really apologize for this for those that are listen to me, kind of repeat some of the stuff I did a couple of weeks ago. I may take this time to

talk about Trophy Kill. And this is new information and so if I have this opportunity till we get Ronald J. Watkins on, I'll spend the next little bit telling you the latest development with the killer that is involved in my book, Trophy Kill. I'll give a brief synopsis of the story for those people that don't know. Trophy Kill is an incredible tale of a psychopathic killer that I corresponded with briefly. He walked into a police station. Let

me start again. On July one, the movie Shall We Dance was being filmed in Winnipeg, Susan Sarandon called police to report some jewelry, including her gold necklace situars in her movies, stolen from her trailer. On July second, while police were still looking for that jewelry, Sydney Teerhues calmly walked into a police station and claimed that he had met a man, Robin Green the day before. They shared drinks. He passed out intoxicated, and when he awoke he found

his acquaintance the victim cut up in his bathtub. Police thought he was kidding because of his demeanor, but they escorted them back to his rented room and found the body of the victim dismembered into eight pieces, crudely reassembled for shock value. The body had been disemboweled and castrated and decapitation saw on in half, but the eyes were removed. There was some dissection of mutilation, but more importantly, all of the internal organs had been removed and were never found.

Susan Randon's gold necklace was found about three feet away. Now I realize that this person was psychopathic from the interviews he did immediately after he was arrested. That was pretty obvious to me. A few weeks later, the police returned the jewelry back to the shall We Dance set and said that they didn't think there was any evidence linking the jewelry to the motive for the murder. I

thought otherwise. I started corresponding with the killer to write a book about this story, and for one year I got all of his background, all of his early life, everything about his upbringing, and after nine months, I then, after gaining his trust, asked him to give me some information about the day in question. He sent me a series of letters outlining every graphic and horrific detail of what he actually did the dismemberment. He is a necrofile,

so I won't go into that. This man referred to his victim as a human trophy and talked about his utter enjoyment in the entire event dismemberment, necrophilia, autopsy, dissection, removal of the organs, everything n said eighteen diagrams as well. He posed a question with serial killer did he most closely resemble? And anyway we fast forward to the trial in two thousand and eight, I become the star witness

for the prosecution. I brought all of the information to the prosecution in two thousand and five after one year, and as a result, I became the star witness.

the whole story. That's why I wrote this book is the sheer absurdity of this I knew this case would demonstrate the absurdity of the person who was capable of doing this Jack the Ripper horror spectacle. What I did get was much more corroborating evidence of his psychopathic psychopathology, the real story behind what happened, and why, the role of Susan Sarandon's jewelry in this entire horror spectacle, and as I concede other murders. My book has been out

since last year. Trial transcripts have been included. They're very rare to see trial transcripts. Most people think they're boring. In this case, they're very, very engaging and put a lot of documents in the book, so it doesn't have a typical true crime look to the book. But the documents were the most powerful way for you to get the information on a very very powerful story. Now the book is called Trophy Kill, The Shall We Dance Murder,

The Trial and Revelations of a Psychopathic Killer. Now, the book has been doing well, and I just you know, everybody's familiar with Facebook. I just received a message on Sunday morning that the killer, who's named Sidney Teerhuse, wanted to be friends on Facebook.

I do not want to correspond with this guy obviously. Now. What it looks like though, with some investigation, and I'm just looking into this now, is that somebody else has set up this Facebook page, and that's some very interesting things. His interests are cannibalism. He has now taken from my book the drawings which are very very graphic, and has posted him on a Facebook page that looks like and

is meant to look like that. It is his Facebook page for himself, and so it includes everything about his life story, which apparently is in my book, and so that's what I'm going to be looking into. Number One, there was a story just recently, you know, in the last week or so on Fox News about a lobb tried to be passed in North Carolina preventing inmates from having a Facebook page or using social media sites for communication,

making it an actual crime. But when I looked into other laws that certainly no inmate has the right to use the Internet or to post on social media sites, and with exceptions that there's people obviously accessing the Internet. So this is in Canada, and obviously he's in a federal prison, so it seems odd that he would be able to do this. Of course, I will look into that somebody else is putting this out on his behalf.

I believe rather than he has, Rather than the option that he has nothing to do with this, this person is the most narcissistic and psychopathic killer that you have ever seen, and as a result, he is a media and loves and revels in every aspect of the murder and details of the murder and the notoriety. He just

loves it. So this isn't keeping with that. But I really do think part of the story was that after he was convicted, he was testing the limits of the brand new Manitoba the province I live in law concerning criminals not being able to profit off the Nordara of their crime. By posting his paintings alongside descriptions of the

murder itself and details of this horrific murder. He was investigated, but under the law he was not under that the writing of the law, he was not guilty of attempting to gain from the notoriety of his crimes when clearly, like I had asked the Manitoba justice, well, why couldn't you just make amendments to this law, because this is the guy that you would have to worry about. It's very rare that any criminal, even as in a position let alone, has the motivation to try to profit off

then or to arrive of their crime. And when someone does, and you've made a law that's thirty years behind the American Son of Sam law, it maybe has time to make amendments so that you don't have this person continually able to get around this law that took you thirty years to draft and to institute. So, needless to say, this is another self promotion of this person, and it is a subtle threat to me as well that there are people there willing to try to access my Facebook

page or communicate with me. Or they've taken a true crime book review and then added that true crime book review as a friend on the site. They have taken the photos are pardon me, the drawings that are exclusively only available in the book Trophy Care period and posted them on this site as well. They've taken sort of edited versions from my book as well. And again it all looks like it's Sydney Teerhues. It is written like it is Sidney Teerhuse and from a product of his doing.

So that's what we have, and taking my information and trying to associate me with the killer's own Facebook page. So I'm going to make some inquiries to find out how this could be done. Talk to a Facebook administrator. I'll see if we can get this pulled off. I don't want to help promote this guy whatsoever. I don't want myself or my book associated with him in some way like I'm working in tangent or in tandem with this guy, which is absolutely opposite of what is true.

I want to have this person spend the rest of his life in prison, and we do not have actual life sentences in this country. He could spend the rest of his life in prison, but routinely we see the

exact opposite. Within a couple of years before his actual parole first parole date ability to be paroled, they are already sending him to a halfway house escorted passes to prove, and these would prove without if there is no incidence, they would prove that he is ready potentially to go to a halfway house or to a release date on parole.

And again there is no rehabilitating this man. In fact, there are seventeen years before that parole hearing, and I am as much as I can going to step up this investigation to try to prove that this person is a killer by tracking down the victims themselves somehow. And the way to do that is just to speak to Sydney Tearhuse. This man wants to tell you what he has done to brag and boast, and that's what he's done.

That's why someone walks into a police station to report a man dead and then blows the police officer's mind that gets to see this horror spectacle. This washed body sawn in half at the waist, decapitated, one eye punctured, one eye removed, one nipple cut off, one hand partially dissected, the legs at the knees, the arms at the elbows. Reposition in the bathtub on his back towards the door for maximum shock value. A horror murder, horror spectacle. The

body's washed. All of the organs are removed. All of the organs have been removed. They check the sewer, They check the garbage cans around the area within maybe a mile or two. Nothing. They checked the sewer. Nothing I found out where those organs were. What happened with those organs? For those listening in America, you have no idea the added horror of our court system that deals with killers like they threw a rock through your garage window, like

something like its vandalism. This killer, the serial killer, I believe and you'll believe it when you read just a little of what he writes, because he intimates, alludes to it, insinuates he is his latest thing On Facebook, he talks about being a serial killers. Whoever wrote it on behalf of him is now claiming he is a serial killer. And they're surprised he's only been caught for one murder. They repeat that he's a serial killer. Now have no idea why anybody would do this. It's not revenge on

Sidney Teerhuse. This is exactly what he wants. Why would they get me involved? Because it's somewhat of a subtle threat that Sidney Teerhuse is reaching out to me. Sidney believes that I stole stole his royalties from this book. He believes, because sales are decent with this book, that there's an incredible amount of profit that I am not giving him. This is the way he thinks. At the same time, he's happy. As he said in court on the witness stand under cross examination, he hates me. He

hates me. He puts on his Facebook page Sidney tierhues si d n e y t e r h U I s it's incredible. It's incredible what he's put on here. It's another example of his psychopathology. If this person were to be asked about other murders. He lived in Vancouver for ten years or so, nine or ten years. He lived in Edmonton about three years. These are big cities. There's about three million between those two cities for sure, certainly, And as I say, his dream was to move to Vancouver,

British Columbia, West Coast, beautiful city. His wage would be at least as good there as anywhere. And he's a chef, one of many in restaurants. And he's a junkie, self avowed junkie, alcoholic junkie, spending his money, all his disposable income on rent and drugs. So he made some money, but he moves from Vancouver, he goes up north to the Yukon briefly, then he goes to Edmonton. Then he

goes into drug clinic for six months, six months. So I just speculate that's where those murders happened, and that's why he moved to get away from himself, to get away from his murders, the capacity to be able to do what he did to butcher this human being, then remove all the organs and take them miles away to dispose of them, because he wanted to create a spectacle that even Jack the Ripper didn't commit. Jack the Ripper did not remove all the organs. Jack the Ripper sent

a kidney to the police. He wrote letters, some were disputed but there certainly he wrote to the police. He contacted the police, he sent them an organ. He was called a ripper because he displayed organs. He dealt with organs. That was his signature. Is something to do with the organs and the overkill, mutilation and devastation of these people.

He blended in that despite the thousands of police at that time, the concerted effort to try to hunt this guy, track this guy down, nobody saw him, nobody could give a good description, nobody could find him. Even though it'll only take a few minutes to get to the scene of the crime. He was accelerating in his brutality, expanding, evolving into more destruction, more mutilation. Sydney teerhughes the crime alone, Judy was boring. Hello.

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nipples cut off. And then somebody walked into a police station, a man and said, I met this woman and when I woke, I you know, would there be would there be outrage that this person then has the opportunity number one, to have the best lawyer in the English speaking world, the most experienced lawyer. And that's the other that's the major subtext of this book. How far does that guy go to defend And I'm not naive about how lawyers work,

so but you see it, it's there. This person having the opportunity to have the ability to walk out of prison in five years a free man, is ridiculous. Ridiculous that even had the opportunity. Now, he still had the opportunity when he wrote me two hundred pages of letters outlining his mo o, his signature. He talks when you kill a body, when a body dies, he talks about every single detail of the murder and the autopsy, disposable of the organs with glee and enjoyment and disregard for

humanity itself. And still he had the opportunity to walk out of there a free man. That is ridiculous, that's absurd, that's insane. So who cares about the Canadian judicial system, certainly not anybody in America. But it's part of the story. It's part of And you know, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal and I'm not a conservative, and I'm not a left wing and I'm not a right wing. I'm just a guy that looks at this and says, this

shows you what's wrong. This is a case that clearly demonstrates that there's something wrong with an attitude that you can rehabilitate most everybody, and that drinking reduces your responsibility for murder because then they can't. They have the prosecution has to prove that the killer had the intent to kill. Sounds ridiculous, it is. And when people just look at the brutality and viciousness and senselessness and savagery of this murder, I don't care if you're looking at a good victim

or a bad victim. It's just a victim. But this book, unlike any other book, is so far into the criminal mind. You have not read anybody that talks like this never, You've never seen drawings like this. And then he takes the witness stand for a full day of testimony. And it's interesting when his lawyer trots out all the fanciful tale the importance of this psychopath and all these famous people. He's been such an important like you say, the rising

star in the culinary industry. Again, all the examples. If you love psychology, you won't believe what you get. You're privy to because this is a classic case the serial killer. It's not the beginning of the birth of a serial killer. This is how a serial killer thinks, how they really regard their victims. Never, not Jeffrey Dahmer, not John Wayne Gacy, not any of them have spoken like this about their victim, and nobody has included all of these other characteristics. Sure,

he's nonchalant. There's some killers that are like that. Fifteen twenty hours of questioning and even the investigators doubt that these guys did it. It's incredible their composure. But this guy's psychopathology is on display. He loves to talk and he's articulate. But that just makes for a deeper insight, or a deeper look into this guy's mind how it actually works. Essentially, he did this murder just to capitalize on the fame he knew he would gain from Susan

Sarandon's jewelry. But at the same time, that jewelry has much more meaning than just ending up at that crime scene. Why what was it doing there? And you do read some talk of Sydney downplaying that jewelry, and I have my ideas why that was is that I really do think that this person investigated our laws and talked about second degree murder versus first degree murder. I really don't think he wanted to tell people the motive for the murder, and as a result, other than myself, nobody looked for

that motive for the murder. This person would have been convicted easily a first degree murder in the United States because I would have pulled a bunch of circumstantial things like the letters, which are very, very damning, and we're crucial in the trial itself that I was involved in.

The jury believed my letters or believed my testimony, believed the killer's testimony, believed what he wrote in the letters, and believed his diagrams, and recommended the stiffest sentence in our province's history for second degree murder, the equivalent of first degree murder. So they recommended the stiffest sentence available period, very encouraging. The judge believed said stated, essentially believed these letters. So the evil nature of this man was on display,

and he was proud to convey that information. Of his power, his evil, his brutality, his callousness. There's nothing more humiliating and more disturbing than someone that talks about the sheer glee of necrophilia with a details appetitated corpse. This person has reached into, you know, a pit of evil that no one that I have read has ever gone. I've read The Happy Faced Killer by the Creation of the Serial Killer by Jack Olsen, and it was Keith jesperson.

You can see it on YouTube. American Justice covered it as well. This very callous disregard for prostitutes hanging around truck stops and he threw them outains like trash and Gaysey. There's not much worse than Gaysey and his disregard for the people he tortured and killed. Dahmer. The story is just fantastic, fantastically disturbing and horrific. Drilling into his victims, said, putting.

is obviously in Valley Stream. Just tell us, just get that setting for us, sure.

it's just your average normal small town people. The children walk to school, people don't exercise anymore than the normal kind of caution for their safety. It's a low crime area and this murder was very shocking to the community. Horton Road is just one of the streets. The neighbors are typically held to block parties there and would block it off on Halloween to keep the children from wandering around.

And Missus Gallup, the wife of Robert Gullup, had been involved in a campaign not long before the murder to have the street made one way in order to minimize the amount of traffic that went up and down the streets. So she was fairly well known. The kelly An's parents lived five houses away near the corner. They were not neighbors who knew each other intimately, but knew each other

by sight and to wave. And I don't recall, you know, I wrote the book back in nineteen ninety four, it seemed, and I was that's when I was last on the street. Seems to me there were eighteen houses on Horton Road something like that.

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Father her father ran an auto restoration business, and her mother worked I don't recall in an office something like that.

five foot four, maybe right in that range. And like some very short men, he compensated by being a weightlifter, and he routinely went to a weight room where he worked out and was quite muscular even for his short, short size. And it came out of the investigation that he had been like somewhat weight whitter's weight lifters do bodybuilders. He had been using steroids, and there was some the question was raised as to whether or not steroid use

might have somehow contributed to the offense. But no, there was ever any positive conclusion made that that was the case. Right now, he was a bit of a lay about. It didn't really work, didn't keep didn't keep jobs. But then he was that's probably pretty common of a lot of young men's age. That was great.

They were getting ready for her for her birthday, and friends had bought a gift for her they were going to give her and she when she got home, she was sitting here Richie, her younger brother, and it was talking to a girlfriend, complaining about having to stay home and thinking that she ought to just go to Grant Park anyway. And then at the little after three o'clock in the afternoon, she received a telephone call.

And someone said they had seen her go into the gall Up house, which seemed a new usual because they know they were not friends and even though the younger gallic boy John Jay and her were of the same age, they were not known to hang out with each other, and so it was sort of unusual. And they went to the door and uh, and I don't recall the answer, but denied that Kelly had come there. The family kept looking for Kelly, called the police, learned they couldn't make

a missing person's report till the next day. Kelly's mother called the teniusall as I recall, very late, like midnight or something, and were and explained their daughter was missing and been seen going to the house and was assured that Kelly was not there and had not been there. So it wasn't until the next morning when a juvenile police officer responded to the missing person's complaint that an official search began.

So police then interviewed those children and what did those children say about what they had told the Tenyus family.

And they commonly they will say that those who think more than one person was involved point to think you're a John Jay. And the part of the reason for that is the call was allegedly from John. And then what you're saying that one of the children said it was John Jay who answered the door.

Tell us a little bit about how you know police were able to get that warrant, because if they weren't able to get that warrant, the case could come out completely different.

enter the gall Of home. My recollection is the book recently. Maybe you'll recall it differently, but my recollection is that they had the father signed a consent for him which allowed them to search the home. That was an innovation of the of the police department. And the parents were, you know, innocent in this. They wanted to cooperate and they had been told by their children that the girl had not been there, so they didn't have a problem

with the police searching. And in the course of the search, they discovered her body in the basement in a sleeping bag, stuff to the closet, at which point the homicide detectors were someone the father, if I recall correctly, was in the basement helping the police search.

way I interpreted this. Maybe I was wrong that he he knew his brother had done something and he didn't mind, you know, making it making it easier for him to get caught.

She had been vivisectioned. She had been gutted while she was still alive, and that's what killed her. The compared to the example I draw late in the book is that while much was made of the steroids and later of satanic satanic rites, and the truth is this was a sadomasochistic murder, much like Jack the Ripper in London in the nineteenth century. The murderer had had gutted his victim.

Seamen was discovered on the body, but it had been placed there through masturbation, not through any sexual activity with the body, and the sexual arousal appears to have occurred from the from the vivisectioning of a living human being.

done by knife. They were not able initially to determine what instrument had been used. There was a World War One German banet down there, and initially suspicion was directed that it had been the murder weapon, but it was not. The the forensic the pathologist finally determined that she had been cut open using shards of broken glass because there was a peculiar two track uh incision caused by the by the glass. Now, the interesting part of that is if you look at the murder, then it tells you

it's unplanned. Right, if you're gonna, if you're gonna, I'm gonna cut someone like this and kill them, then you would at least take the time to have a knife. And the murder was in such a frenzy, just incredibly violent. The homicide detective, as I talked to, told me they never before and never since saw a bodies so utterly brutalized as her body was.

police find in there? Obviously? Then now once they've got the body and now it's going to be taken to the pathologist for autopsy. What are the police now looking for and finding and tell us because this is an important part of the story, at least for you know, for a visual is that what's the state of this house, especially the basement itself.

living in the house, were actually in the house. He said, normally a crime scene you exclude everyone except the investigators. But that isn't what was happening, and they needed to do an investigation beyond the basement. They needed to look in the rest of the house. But people were up there, moving around, and he said he had no idea of

what evidence was being destroyed or hidden, even accidentally. They had to obtain a search warrant ultimately, and he said he's he was never able to resolve how much damage to the investigation might have occurred as a consequence of that. To say the mother was not a good housekeeper would probably be the understatement of the century. She was a collector. There's I guess there's a TV show now about that.

Huh yeah, order, Yeah, she's a order and the place, I mean, you could hardly move the place was no. I had an aunt who who kept a very neat house, but she never put anything away. And you know, every time I go visit her, it was she she found it easier to apologize then pick up the house and I would have to wait five minutes. Why she cleared off and left room for me to sit on a couch because every every open place in the house had had stuff piled on it, and this house was like that.

And the basement was even worse. It was like things had just been pitched there from the top of the stairs. There was just no order to it at all. It

made the forensic examination very, very complicated. The other part of this to keep in mind is we're talking nineteen eighty nine, and the level of forensic science at that time is not where it is today, and DNA testing had only just begun, and the police were accustomed to with blood samples of using the old serum systems where you did classification by blood type, and then there would be I've forgotten the name for it, but there would

be different elements within the blood that could could systematically

eliminate people as suspects. And they were initially depending on that because DNA testing was so slow and they didn't have any faith in it yet, because as of this at this point in time, no criminal case in the state of New York had been solved by DNA yet, and so it was all new to these officers and they weren't sure they could even though they had a lots lots of blood, you know, they were pretty sure it was from Kelly, but they were beginning to suspect

some of the blood might be for the murderer himself, and so they were taking samples everywhere.

four of the most talk about the interview with Robert. Yeah, there have been four in the house. Three of them alibied each other, and Robert just you would have been by himself. But when the police were questioning them and they were saying that nobody had come into the house and they couldn't explain how the body got there, they noticed that that John Jay had cuts on his hands, and as I said earlier, he was very powerfully built.

One of the initial impressions the first thing the policeman did, you know, John Jay and his friends are like thirteen to fourteen years old, and they're just about like you expect, three geeky kids smoking dope. And then here's this weightlifter, the short but very powerfully built, and he's got cuts on his hands.

main suspect. What was his demeanor? And then what was almost what was the conclusion from what was the reaction from police after encountering this demeanor.

demeanor was steady. So that's why I talked about psychopathic characters and that the only people that are able to do this under that kind of questioning.

today for them, sociopath sociopath of the word. Okay, they know they have no conscience, they feel no guilt, their glib liars, they've been lying all their life, and they're very controlled, and of course they know they're guilty, and it's not uncommon left alone in the room for him just to fall asleep, and that's how unconcerned they are, and he could not he there was a moment, if I recall correctly, when the detective thought he had him just about ready to come clean, and then he clamped

down and and and that was as close as they ever got to a confession from him.

more information to be had. And now in this case, it seems to be a slam dunk because it had to be someone and I think that's a lot of people might say, well, well, how hard can this be? This conviction? It does become hard because of a state law and just the steadfastness of this killer itself. So they questioned him, but police are not able to make an arrest based on them.

and then they don't have a confession. And then the police were not initially in the house with the search warrant because of of how the missing person case unfolded, and there were lots of legal trip wires that the police realized they could have stumbled over. You mentioned the bloody palm print earlier. They really thought they had it. They thought that they had the killer's palm print from when he had placed her body into the closet, and in fact, I think that is exactly what they had.

And what they did was they cut the door jam out, bagged it, and and they were taking it in to have the fingerprint analysts then take the print off of it. But it was apparently damaged in some way in transit, and if my recollections correct, they used what was then a very new technique where they sealed it and then they released a spray of super glue. Apparently this is

a common technique used today. At that time it was very unusual, and they were able to lift a print from it, but I don't recall if any longer, if the print played a role in the prosecution or not.

can't arrest them. The other thing that we might not have mentioned that there is some other evidence that's found at the house, including attache cases that seemed to be

soaked in blood. But also they there was a mystery for quite a while and it ends up being important later, and that they found an attache case with some clothing that ends up being the victims, but also an attached a case well looks like empty, not containers, but receptacles for something, and they can't figure out what that is. It becomes later important when it ends up being antique pocket watches from the Gaulos family and ended up being

part of this evidence as well. And they find out later, much later that, of course Robert cashes those in at the pawn shop a day or so before the murder. So another bit of circumstantial evidence pointing to I'm not sure if that has anything to do with motive, but it certainly paints a picture of Robert anyway and puts him obviously, you know, handling those attached a cases.

it's got to be one of those. It's it's it's it's not any other explanation, right, And then yet you have to put the evidence together to say who who did it. And as I said earlier, there are those people who don't believe that that, you know, Robert Gallup did the salone. Now that I spend hours, hour days with these policemen and and spoke ex extreme length and it questioned them repeatedly about about how they knew for

a act there was only one killer. And their answer was, there's no forensic evidence on her body of two people that when two people are involved in the salt, there's evidence of it. And there was no evidence in the basement itself that two people had been involved in the murder. And when they lifted the blood and they lifted the sperm and they ran the tests, the tests were all of the body fluids came from two people, Robert Gallop and the victim, nobody else. So did John Jay lure

her over? I don't know. I mean she didn't know, She didn't know her, She didn't know Robert. Why would she go to the Gallip house if Robert had called her? The caller said it was John. She said it was John, so his childer brother, you said earlier one of the young witnesses said that it was John Jay went to

the door. I could conjecture as to what happened, but the police and the and the police conjectures they thought about it too, but they could not find any evidence, even a scintility of evidence that there was a second, second assailant involved in the.

And and for this brutal of crying to happen in this basement, it caused everyone to re examine what kind of neighborhood do we live in? What are these people who live here really like the Gallops, You know, it sort of stayed to themselves. But as I say, Missus Gulf have been involved in the effort to get the street made one way, They were respected members of this neighborhood. Well, if these people can have a murder in their house,

who else? What else is going on here? And imagination because of the brutality of this murder, and because of the way the story slowly unfolded in the newspapers and on television. You know, we're talking about it here in forty minutes, and we're laying this all out fairly quickly, and when the reader reads the book, that's the way they will read it. But that isn't the way it

happened in the neighborhood. Little by little, more and more of this came out, and you know, people who don't do this kind of work for a living, or maybe today with the cable television shows that we have, people are more aware of this now than they used to be. But it's hard for the average person to really understand that people like this exist and that they exist in their neighborhood, and that a man like this could murder one of their children in such a brutal and savage way.

Anything could, I mean, they could, than anything's possible.

him and took him away. There must have been twenty five or thirty of us gathered outside to watch the spectacle, and that's what happened in Horton wrote, Once the words spread in the neighborhood like wildfire that a body had been found in this house, and the neighbors start gathering outside a vigil. The parents are there is this our daughter? You know, if this could this have been our daughter's fate? And in the police, so they don't want to say

they don't know. They they I mean, there was so much damage done to her face, they're not I mean, they know it's her, it's got to be her, but they don't know. No, not in the sense where you go to someone and say, if I recall correctly who identified the body as I recall, it's not one of the parents. Who was somebody? No, it was.

Then he go off somewhere hang out. They had to put him under police, They had to put him under police surveillance because they this is their killer.

it gets very heated. There's been firecrackers and guns being shot off and so some serious stuff going on. And well that continues right to the trial.

several years afterwards. As I recall, I think I was researching this story about three years after after events, and and there was there had been a lot of interaction between the families, could be the there was talk originally in the neighborhood wanted to buy the house and turn it into a park dedicated to Kelly, but that never happened, and of course the Gallups couldn't sell the house. Who

wants to do the house? They were there, I think I heard recently, I think I got an email from someone telling me that the house had finally been sold and the Glups were moving well. But you know, you know, I I wouldn't have stayed in the neighborhood if it had been my daughter that was murdered. I wouldn't want to live near where all that had happened, you know, I was sort of I kind of thought it was

curious both families stayed right. One of the one of the conclusions I reached is, you know, for the for the Tenuous family, he kind of delayed the grieving by being in this and antagonistic relationship with the Gallup family. But you know, we can say what we want to about mister and missus Gallup and how she wasn't a good housekeeper, and maybe that they were, maybe he was an odd guy. Uh, but the fact is they didn't have anything to do with his murder. And uh and

to what extent they raised a monster? You know, I don't know. I uh, you know, I've known families that had, you know, five wonderful children and and the fifth was a psychopath. And I've known families that were where the children were all all uh, all this career criminals, and one of them was a Rhodes scholar.

same prosecutor, prosecuting office. And this one of the detective told me, he said, you know, in the time that we were investigating this murder and bringing him to trial, he said, lots of young women were murdered, Lots of thirteen year old girls were killed. He said, I could never figure out what the media obsession with this particular

murder was. The ultimately the reaction of the neighbors, the bizarre stories that some of the kids were telling, It just became a media frenzy, and the immedia coverage itself. I'm convinced it sort of fed on itself and influenced a lot of this confrontation between between the families and the neighbors.

You know, this guy's you know, so he's a very interesting character in this and relenting.

he saw on the basement wasn't Kelly. Kelly was you know, the pretty smiling girl on the cover of the book. That's yeah, that's who Kelly was.

I spoke to another homicide detective that is actually the head of the police Association and he thanked me for my efforts. And I said to both of these guys that that is the police that everyone has to respect. It's the job no one wants. Nobody wants to go into these crime scenes. How are you ever going to

get those images out of your head? And then they still have to be courteous and polite and respectful to these people that you and I would I don't know what we would do to these people when they're smiling.

You see it all the time, uh, in newspapers or on television, where their ideas they're going to get they're going to get the guy out no matter what, you know, by any by hooker, crook, and it's up to the up to the prosecution to prove their case, by God, and if they get a guilty person off to some technicality, then then I say, say he was innocent or she was innocent. But a lot of a lot of these

criminal defense attorneys take a different tact. They're there. They view their job as making sure that the state does what it's supposed to do, that it's not real road in the wrong guy, that the level of evidence rises to the legal standard, and they're there to present a zealous defense for their client. But they don't think they're there to break the rules. They don't think they're there to do any dirt that it takes to get their

guy off. It's their giant to bend their client. And he was that kind of a defense attorney, And you know that's that's the defense attorney I can live with. And if you know, if I was ever charged, I don't know which kind I would want to have. But he worked hard at defending Robert. You didn't have a lot to work with once the court ruled on the DNA. And you know, I think the problem, the problem jurys have in cases like this is they'll kind of get

hung up on motive, you know, because it's hard. It's hard to get people to understand that that mutilated body is the motive. That's right, that's the motive. He didn't want to He didn't want to steal money from her. He didn't want to. He didn't want to rape her and lock her in a room where he could have sexual access to her. He wanted to derive his his sado mastachistic sexual pleasure from from from gutting her wife. She was still alive, and that that's what aroused him.

That's what brought him what he wanted.

want to be famous. It's there's who knows, there's a whole, there's all kinds of Again, you can fly normal logical reasoning with these people at all.

guys decide to come clean and tell the truth. It can be twenty years later, it can be thirty years later, and they will be able to give the police specific details of that murder that the police didn't even figure out at the time. And if they've committed thirty murders. They remember every single one of them, justice vividly. Robert Gallup has relived his murder and mutilation of this young girl a thousand times since he did it. That's his own little fantasy.

to our beloved judicial system. But when you talked about a very vigorous defense by a defense, we have a little different situation in Canada where we don't have the judge or the judicial system assign the accused a lawyer. In fact, the accused has a pick of lawyers as long as that lawyer is willing to take the lesser fee of what's called legal aid. But in a particular

case that I was involved with. That particular lawyer boasts about being the most experienced and prolific murder trial lawyer in the English speaking world, with about seven hundred cases

under his belt. And when we talk about a vigorous defense, I agree with you that there certainly, I think some people have lost their moral compass, because the right for an accused to have a defense does not mean that you grand stand at press releases and that you actually lie for your client or have them lie on the stand.

And you see various levels of vigorous defense, but at least when the state is paying for it, you see that at least that lawyer, that defense lawyer doesn't go into the realm of trying to discredit witnesses and end victims. And as you had mentioned, there are various levels of what a lawyer will do according to his own ethical standards.

published in Brazil next month. But I'm currently writing the Sumhat Murder series, which is a series of murder mysteries set atop the highest mountain of each of the world's seven seven highest peak and the first of them, Murder

on Everest, came out last year. The concept is that you take a mountain climbing expedition that's going to climb Everest or Mount Elbris or Mount McKinley or aw Coancagoa and South America, and you add all the danger that goes with being in a remote place and climbing, and then you add a murder mystery to it and makes fix for an interesting story. It's a series of seven books.

I'm currently writing a book number five. They're being released about six months apart, but it's a summer murder series. Readers should start with Murder on Everest. I do a lot of ghostwriting for businessmen, memoirs, people who have an idea of a novel that they would like to like to have written for them. And ghost writings has been my main support here for the last fifteen tethy years. But I still find time to write my own books.

Was my second book. When I had been a probation officer, I worked for seven years as a pre sentencing investigator, and I did five first degree murder presentencing reports and in those I only recommended the death penalty once. And that's the subject of Evil Intentions, And then I wrote. Then I wrote a second book was surely true crime, and just about an American family owned a business and

the struggle for control of the business. And there was a homicide that occurred in the middle of the fight for control of the company, and there were suspicions cast and I told my agent then I said, look, I really don't want to write about murders. I don't want to do that anymore. And he said, okay, write something else. Many two years later he says, listen, there's this murder, and well, really, i'd really appreciate if you do write a book on it. For me. It's okay, but no more.

you very much for appearing on the program. And it has been a pleasure, a fascinating hour, and it's a it's gone by very quickly, so I want to thank you very much, ron For people that have been listening to the program, this is Ronald jay Watkins with his excellent book Against Her Will, and again go to Ronald Jay Watkins and if you need his services or you're interested in what else is he's doing and his fiction series.

So thank you very much again ron for coming on for a great program, and have yourself a good evening pleasure you too, Bye, good night. Even listening to the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, good Night,