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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. When Elizabeth Andys was found bound, stabbed, and strangled in her Ohio apartment in nineteen seventy eight, police and prosecutors decided within hours it was an open and shut case. Within days, Bob Young, a twenty three year old football player whod found his college sweetheart's lifeless body on their bedroom floor, was charged with their murder. To this day, police and
prosecutors still say they had the right guy. Even though two juries, one criminal and one civil, disagreed and Young walked away a free man. Beth's case went cold. Nearly four decades later, two Cincinnati reporters re examined the murder and discovered that law enforcement ignored leeds that might have uncovered who really killed Beth Andy's. It wasn't that there weren't other people to look at. There were plenty, but
no one bothered until now. The book they were featuring this evening is Accused, The Unsolved Murder of Elizabeth Andys, with my special guest journalists and authors Amber Hunt and Amanda Rossman. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Amber Hunt and Amanda.
Rossman, thank you for having us.
Thank you very much. I hope I didn't pronounce mispronounced Elizabeth's last name.
No, nope, that was right.
Andy's Okay, great, Let's talk right away how you both came to We alluded to it that you were working for the Cincinnati Inquirer. But tell us how you came to want to and feel the need to compel to write this story do this podcast Accused, but especially this book Accused. Tell us about that. The genesis of it, Well.
It started with a lawyer who was representing Beth's family and she had started to do some digging around in the case and she hit a brick wall. So she happened to be acquainted with the lawyer who represents the inquirer in legal matters when we have to sue for documents and that sort of thing. So she mentioned it to him more like in passing, can you believe I'm
de with this kind of stuff? He recognized it as a possible story, mentioned it to an editor here again just sort of in passing, and then it was given to me to look at because I've written through crime books before and I always seemed to get drawn back into crime coverage. So I was looking at the case and it didn't take very long to realize that it wouldn't just be a story about, you know, a case
that still isn't solved. There were actual leads to follow, and so I asked to be paired up with a photographer, which is what Amanda was at the time, and we just became really fixated on the case, borderline obsessed.
At the time, we didn't know what kind of route it would take, so we didn't know if it would stay a story, if it would lend itself to more of a documentary video. Once we started doing the interview, hearing the voices of best friends and talking with these folks that should have been talked to back in the day. It just lended itself to podcast form.
Now this book is in terms of the podcast. Again, we talked about the transcript, So what is it exactly the book represents as compared to the podcast or in relation to the podcasts.
The transcript So if you have, if you have the podcast memorized, I suppose it won't be that exciting for you. But I have to say I wrote the episodes and when I read them compiled, I was reminded of things that I had forgotten in the reporting process. So I think it's a different way to present the case, and it allows you to see the information in a different way.
And we also recognize too that there you know, there are a lot of people who don't necessarily listen to podcasts, so the book is a chance to reach a wider audience. Our goal the entire time was to try and tell back story in hopes of hitting the right people. Maybe somebody knows something out there. So this is another avenue that we can go down.
To start this. You talk about the again, the place where all of this occurs in Oxford, Ohio. Talk about being a college town forty five minutes north of Cincinnati. Cincinnati, tell us a little bit more about Oxford, Ohio and its characteristics and why she would have been in this Elizabeth Andy's why she was in Oxford, Ohio.
Specifically, Elizabeth had just graduated from college and which is very much a small college town.
Oxford is.
It's very small police department at the time one of those places where the college kind of was the town. So you have these counties that live there, but kind of work in the area as well, so everybody tends to know everybody. Elizabeth had just graduated college, she was looking to move out of Oxford coming into Cincinnati, had gotten i think a new job, right she was set to start work and moved to Cincinnati with her boyfriend Bob.
Now we're talking about this is the crime occurs in December nineteen seventy eight, but you were talking about just finishing college. Now tell us about Bob Young and their relationship. Beth and Bob Young's relationship.
Sure, and just so you know, the Beth graduated just two weeks before she was killed. She was one of those students who had an extra semester to finish up, and her living boyfriend, Bob young was in the same boat. So the two of them had just graduated, along with another friend who was a roommate. So Bob was a football player at Miami University, really kind of a soft spoken guy. It seemed like whatever aggression he had, he
left it on the field. He really was enamored with Beth and they weren't quite sure what they were going to do after they graduated. There was talk of moving in together. There was talk of him going maybe out west and doing some work in his field of study, which was geology. But so the deal was that Beth was in her soon to be former apartment and she was cleaning up the place to move to Cincinnati, and she called her boyfriend, who was at home in Fairborn, Ohio,
and said, hey, you know, come help me. So he wasn't in a huge rush to go help clean an apartment, so he took a shower, he went and got some gas, and then he showed up there about an hour and a half after she had called, and things were not right. He knew right away something was wrong. There was no light on in the apartment, and then when he walked in he found her body. So police at the time
immediately focused on him, which is understandable. He found the body, that is the first person you interview, but they interrogated him for about fifteen hours straight and ended up getting a confession. So he confessed to having killed her, immediately recanted. And what's amazing to me is that the jury in nineteen seventy nine, at that point, early nineteen seventy nine, actually believed him that he had falsely confessed.
Let's go back to the scene of the crime itself and what we mentioned that he was volunteered to help her move and pack some stuff, and by the time he got there then he had this horrible discovery, and then he ran to the in the building. There was no one home because it was a Christmas break and so he had to run to the next building to find somebody that he could use a call to make the call, the nine one one call, of course, the
days before cell phones. What did he find and what did he again, you talked about the police grabbing him right away and then him being arrested the next day, So tell us more about what was at the crime scene and what he did in response to that.
He walked in to a darkened apartment and ended up turning on a light in the bedroom and he saw back she was bound, had her hands tied behind her back, her feet were tied together. She clearly had been in some kind of struggle. He thought at first she had been shot, because she had what looked like holes in her chest, but in reality they were knife wounds, apparently from a pair of sewing shears that were next to her body. So he sees this, he knows immediately that
she is dead. I mean, it's visibly obvious, and he does. He runs out. He is banging on doors, nobody's answering. He runs out one building, goes into another, and finally finds somebody to use the phone. And you know, when police got there, they didn't find any evidence of a break in, so that was one of the reasons they zeroed in on him. But they brought him in straight away, and he never asked for a lawyer. He just went
through this interrogation thinking. You note that he was helping the police figure out what had happened.
Right right away. They talk about his whereabouts and the trip, the amount of time it would take from him to come from his apartment and go to Oxford to her apartment. What did he say in terms of that amount of time, and then you talk about again it's a little bit later. We're jumping ahead a little bit. But the police in that have have said that they refuted that time that he gave. So what's the time he gave and what did the police say in response to that?
Well, Beth's phone call came around seven o'clock and Bob showered and all this, and there was an interesting time stamp on when he went to the local gas station. Somebody saw him there, but they were sure that he was there Hill eight, Yeah, because they knew because they had to rush home to watch more than Mindy on TV. And since this is before DVR days, that was a fixed time stamp for them, so that helped situate when
he was at this gas station. So he said it took him an hour and a half to drive from the gas station to Beth's apartment in Oxford. So this is Fairborn to Oxford, Ohio, and police came. Of course, they did the same drive and they claimed that they got it done in seventy five minutes. And those fifteen minutes, if you believe the police that he shaved that off, that means that he walked in, got enraged, killed his girlfriend, and clean himself up all within this fifteen minute span.
We did the drive for our reporting process, and it took us an hour and a half and a couple minutes change, so very.
Very similar to what he had said.
It was. And of course we're doing it, you know, nearly forty years later, so we're trying to give the benefit of the doubt. But we could not find anybody from the time, you know, somebody else did the drive as well, Like, there was only one individual who claimed he got it done in seventy five minutes, and that was one of the police officers, who very clearly believed he had the right guy.
Obviously, you talk about the police zero in on him, and as per custom, they look at people that are close and so that's why he's a natural suspect. But what was their theory as to why he had killed Beth, his girlfriend?
It was a pretty weak theory, to be honest, I think, you know, obviously I am no longer unbiased, but when I started reporting this, we made a point to keep all possibilities on the table. And their theory that they presented in trial was that she was nagging him to stay because he was considering going west. As I mentioned, she was nagging him. He didn't he wanted to break up, or he didn't want to break up, like honestly, it's
a little convoluted. So their theory was just that the graduation had messed up the relationship and at some point she must have been nagging him, and so he snapped, and he grabbed these scissors that were in her room and stabbed her. To that.
Right, was there any witnesses or anyone that they could find that they used a trial to say that he had any violent disposition or any incidents of him being, say, enraged.
Absolutely, no one tested fight at trials saying that they had seen him fly into any kind of rage. Now, we interviewed somebody who mentioned that when he was drinking, you know, one time he saw him yell at some people in a parking lot. But that's as close as we got. And we interviewed more than seventy people for this project.
Now you talk about this trial that was in nineteen seventy nine and he's being acquitted. Not to dwell on that, because we have this investigation that you undertook, both of you undertook to deal with. But given that theory, given them the no witnesses, what was the feature of that trial that was what made it evident that for the jury that he was innocent. What was it that seemed to make the jury sway the jury and pronounce him and acquit him at try role?
Well, when Bob Young gave his confession, he provided details that ultimately ended up not being true. They didn't match the crime scene. So what she was bound with the material he used, he got that wrong. For example, the order that she would have been tied up versus stabbed, because it appeared she had been tied up first. We know that because there's a puncture wound in one of the ties, so that lets you know she's bound and
then stabbed. So all of these little details that he could have, I mean, a confession should corroborate that stuff, and instead it did the opposite. And he was in a position to actually hire a lawyer, So he had a lawyer who you know, wasn't just punching a clock and presented a case saying, look, you know, this stuff doesn't line up. So how could his confession be true if it doesn't match the crime scene?
Now, what is the situation, what prompts them to retry him and him have another trial. Tell us about those circumstances.
It wasn't a retry. It was actually switching court. So when he was acquitted, he walks away and the prosecutor and police at the time say, you know what double jeopardy means. We can't retry him and we have no other suspects. The jury got this wrong. It happens the end. So the family came back around and said, okay, but what about civil liability? And so they suit him in civil court for wrongful death. So this is the way that oj Simpson ultimately was found guilty or liable in
some way. They were trying to do that with Bob Young, but again the second jury found him not liable. Is really noteworthy because when you're when you're in civil courts, the threshold is preponderance of evidence, like so you're you need to be about fifty one percent sure, So it's a much lower threshold than beyond a reasonable doubt, and the jury still didn't go with it.
Right now, you talk to all kinds of people that we mentioned that the police never spoke to, but you also spoke to people that the police did speak to, but of course you had more questions for them. It's how many years later, forty something years later, thirty seven years later, pardon me, let's talk about the friend that lived off campus with Beth. Sue parmally tell us about some of the conversations you have with her, and regarding what.
Sue was interesting, I think it was really Sue's interview that told us this was an important story to tell, and because the way that the case was still affecting her nearly forty years later, it just reminds you that these horrible things happen, they don't go away. So the interesting thing with her was that we were interviewing her and she mentions, you know, okay, Beth lived with me, and she and Bob shared a room, and then it was me and my boyfriend, and we're both like, well,
whoa hold up? Because nowhere in the case file with their reference to a fourth roommate, and we've got fingerprints at the crime scene that they have been trying to match up with somebody, and it very well could just be another roommate. So that was interesting. That was a moment where we knew, okay, it wasn't just a matter of whether pardon me. It wasn't a matter of whether
police had I interviewed everybody. They didn't. They didn't ask thorough questions at the time, and I'd like to think that we did.
You also talked to another friend named Hallie Chapman tell us about the relationship she had with Beth. Who is she and what are the kinds of things that she spoke to you about.
Hallie had been really good friends with Beth. They met the first week of college and just hit it off straight away, and there was sort of this great group of friends, and Sue was part of that, and Halle's then boyfriend now husband was part of that too. It's really from Hallie that we got the clearest picture of Beth's personality. That she was sort of like a you know, a bit ahead of her time. She's very feminist and you know, a bit bra burning and not the type
to be anybody's doormat. It's through Hallie that I realized that I probably would have really liked Beth.
Right, Let's talk about an issue that comes up between the friends in your investigation about just the murder itself, and that Beth is speaking to her friends about an issue of an unlocked door at her apartment. Tell us about this issue and how serious she was about this and her feelings about it.
So Beth was in the process of moving, so she had been talking with maintenance about moving out. You know, she is ready to give the keys and stuff over when during her move she noticed after running errands that her door had been unlocked. So she got really mad at the maintenance department that they had left her door unlocked. You know, she had been moving boxes, she had been coming in and out. Her stuff was pretty much left
open to the rest of the apartment community. So she had a confrontation with one of the maintenance men after accusing them of leaving her door unlocked. And she had told Hallie and maybe Sue, I don't remember.
That.
She was really mad that that happened. And then that's where we that's where we meet Steve Green. He's the maintenance man that she had yelled at about leaving her door unlocked.
Originally did how much of did police know of this? And what's interesting when you in this book is how much you took names that you said you took them from the police memos and then went from there. But how much of this was new to you going in in terms of what were the surprises of the information it was coming to you from these people.
It was like we would find that there was a kernel of information that they just didn't bother pursuing, So there would be there would be baby versions of what we ultimately were able to report, but they didn't bother to really try and flesh it out. So they knew, for example, that Beth was pissed that day for in
the language that her door had been left unlocked. She was telling everybody that she was really angry about this, and so they did of course talk to Steve and got an alibi from him, but then he moved out of state literally the next day, and he was gone
and they never followed up with him again. And they knew another tidbit was that she was a bit uncomfortable with somebody that she worked with, and he, upon learning that she had been killed, called police and said, hey, just so you know, I spent the night before Beth was killed in her apartment with her, and they asked him about it, but they didn't go far enough with it. It just they would ask these superficial questions and then
just leave it be because they had on blinders. They were so sure that the boyfriend did it, they didn't pursue anybody else with any seriousness.
Now you spoke to Bob Young, because again, just because he was acquitted doesn't mean he's cleared as a suspect. And you're doing a complete investigation of this must have been very, very interesting to be able to and again a delicate situation trying to speak to him after all these years. What were those interviews like with Bob Young?
That was one of the most interesting parts for me as a reporter, because I, of course didn't reach out to Bob initially. What I like to do is kind of the same thing that a police officer would do, in that I interview everybody on the circle so that when I finally do the interview with somebody who's, you know, really important, I'm coming in with as much information as I can. So I interviewed a lot of Beth and Bob's friends. I know, read all the trial transcripts we
had done our drive from Fairborne to Oxford. It was it was really one of the last elements of the case. One of the last interviews to set up was with Bob so By the time I called him, we were very familiar with each other. He knew about me because his friends had been talking to me, and I knew all about him because I'd been researching the hell out of him for nearly a year. And so when I finally called him, he was just sort of like, Hi, Amber, like we knew each other. And I said, yeah, you know,
i'd really like to do this. I'd like to sit down and talk. Yeah, okay, we can do that. And then we flew to his home state and did the interview.
But through his friends, he was able to get a sense of who we were and how serious we were before he even talked to us.
Right now, with this investigation, and I know, I'm just sort of jumping ahead here to try to capture all this incredible journey that you go through for this and all the amount of credible amount of people that you have to talk to to get to the next person
of interest. Tell us how you get to the point where there's three people of interest, and who do you speak to that signals or singles out these three people before we talk about those three people that through this investigation that you decide that and this through these through the person that you interview, that these are people that should have been interviewed by police, and that you want to interview those people. Tell us about those three people.
Well, it's funny how that stuff works out, because we heard about each of the individuals through you know, trial transcripts, through police memos, all of this. But there was also a letter written by Bob Young's defense lawyer back in nineteen seventy nine, and all three of these names were in that letter saying, hey, you guys, you might want to look at these guys alternatives to Bob Young plus the fourth name. So by the time we were in a position to look at that document, we had already
started pursuing these people on our own. And in that letter, like I said, there were four people mentioned. Three of them were still alive, and we interviewed all three of them and were the first to interview one period and the other two we were the first to talk to them since the immediate aftermap and best step like they'd
talked to them, but very little. And then the fourth person I tracked down a relative and at least was able to try and you know, learn a bit about his personality and what the family members thought he was capable of. So we you know, we we worked really hard trying to figure out who else might have done it. Statistically speaking, it probably is somebody that Beth knew, but it's you can't know until you go down every avenue.
Now going down that every avenue, let's get back to the unlocked door and the maintenance man. That would seem like for a lot of people. We better check that out. So you did you you talk about tracking down Steve Green? Finally tell us about that those conversations. What did you ask him and how did he respond? Tell us a little bit about that encounter.
He was an interesting guy to track down because his I have ways to look people up and I can sort of see where they've lived, and he bounced around the country a lot, and in fact wasn't living in Ohio anymore. But I did find somebody who seemed to be connected to him through an address, so we kind of just hail married drove out there. We couldn't find a phone number, so we had to go on person.
We went out there, knocked on the door, and I swear it took about four minutes before somebody said, oh, yeah, I've got a phone number for him. And they just gave us his number, and then when I called him up, I told him, you know, this is a strange call to get, but I'm looking to find out some information about a murder that happened in nineteen seventy eight, and he knew immediately which one I was talking about, and so we set up a time to meet in person.
He was an interesting character. He was quick to agree to meet with us, though, and he answered every one of our questions. One thing to note with him is that I had already talked to police about how I was trying to find Steve Green, and an officer said, yeah, you know, it's really hard. I've tried, I can't find him. And then by knocking on the door we found him in about four minutes.
Yeah, when we first mentioned this, it sounded like, and probably sounded like in your investigation as well, that the Steve Green had moved to Vegas suspiciously the day after, so that would prompt police to maybe want to speak to him why he would move to Vegas. What did you find out about the reason why he moved to Vegas the very next day?
According to Steve, that was already in the works. He already had a plan to move out there because his brother was about to get divorced and he wanted to be there for emotional support and to help with his brother's kid. And we did find that in March I believe it was of seventy nine. I mean, there was a divorce on record, so it lines up, so you
know that. I thinks things can always look really suspicious when you're when you're looking at them through a certain prism, but when you find out more information sometimes that it's a it's a little less concerning.
Overall. When you spoke to him, given that he had a good reason, at least he had a response for why he moved to Vegas, given the other things about
the unlocked door. And at first it seemed that there was you got the information from I think Sue primally, that that there actually was a confrontation, that she actually did speak to him, because at first it didn't seem at least it seemed like we police didn't have that bit of information that there that she had actually been told by Beth of the confrontation with the maintenance man about the unlocked door.
She had meant Sue primally had told police at the time about this phone call. At least that is her memory of it, and I have no reason to think otherwise. But they didn't seem to take that very seriously, and in fact, Sue during the trial at one point says she was concerned that maybe this maintenance man was somebody who had committed the crime, and the prosecutor snapped at her to stop playing detective.
Right now, you talk about Hallie Chapman now mcali, and Hallie was the first person to tell you about the relationship, well, because we talk about buzz Call being her boss, but Hallie filled in about d tales about that relationship and possibly his motivation to have more of a relationship with her. Tell us about.
That this was an interesting conversation. Buzz Call was bes and Halle's boss at a place called Redox in Oxford. So this was a deli slash drive through beer shop basically. And when we're talking to Hallie, she mentioned, oh, he had a crush on her, and she would say things like, you know, hey, get back onto your side of the store.
You know.
But he would ask a lot of personal questions about what she was planning to do in her off time, and there was an ongoing joke, but not really joke between the two women. I say not really a joke because they were concerned enough that they actually made a point not to walk home alone from work when he was there. But it was always sort of said between the two of them in this lighthearted way, like, oh, he's got a crush on you. Yeah, I know he's
you know. So then the day that Beth dies, buzz Call is the one who phoned police and said, hey, I spent some time with her Wednesday night, the night before she was killed. She invited me to her apartment and we watched a movie on TV and she was packing,
and I figured you guys would want to know that. Well, none of Beth's friends had any idea that that encounter had happened, or that he had said the encounter happened, And in fact, they're pretty sure that she would never have opened her door to him because she was supposedly uncomfortable with what she saw, as you know, his infatuation with her. So that was one of the things we learned in our reporting and one of the surprises along the way.
You talk about speaking to somebody about a possible motive, a really good motive based on their experience on why he would say to police and volunteer police that he was in her apartment. What would be the possible reason for it? According to the person you spoke to, and we talked to.
An former FBI profiler, and his hypothesis, or at least, you know, a suggestion, was that if you were concerned that fingerprints or other evidence is going to place you in a place, in a location, it might be a wise idea to explain why that stuff might show up
there to begin with. So in short, and I'm dancing around it myself, so I'm just gonna say it out right, but basically it was saying, hey, it's possible that this guy wasn't there the night before she died, but he wanted to explain why his fingerprints might be there, so he told police that he was there the night before or rather than then letting them think that maybe he was there the night of, as in he is a suspect.
What's interesting is along this way in this investigation, you're not shy in speaking to people and speaking your mind on former police ineptitude and expressing your frustration. What do police or the people that you spoke to recently, what do they have to say about the idea of this former boss having a motive to kill his employee. When you spoke to people, what do they have to say to that idea?
Two or they were very receptive to the notion and promised us that they would interview him. We've been two years out since the podcast first debuted, and as far as I know, they hadn't done that. So I'm kind of hoping that releasing this in book form again puts pressure on them to do their damn jobs, which includes interviewing people that we talked to. I mean, these are people who are alive, They're able to answer questions right now.
We were told that they would they would do their jobs, and so my job as a journalist is to hold people accountable and I'm going to keep trying.
To do that.
You also put something very interesting that the original lead detective on this case, Detective Patrick Baird, just happened to be a good friend of this buzz call. Didn't he wasn't he?
Yeah? Well, Randa mentioned that it is a small town, like basically, the students are strangers, but they come in and they go, and the people who were left behind, the ones who live there, if they all know each other. We didn't have any inkling that the two were buddies until we actually were interviewing somebody who was friendly with Buzz Call because we wanted to make sure that we weren't just talking to people who found him unsettling or
creepy or what have you. So we found a friend and she said, oh, you know what, you should talk to Patrick Barrett about Buzz. They were really good friends. And of course I knew his name because he was the lead detective on the case, and so that was like, oh, really they were really good friends. Good to know, right.
You also include this as well with that, Halliet said that he would make cracks. This Buzz guy would make cracks like are you going to go off with your big, big football playing boyfriend tonight? So there was that kind of to me that was some red flags when I heard that kind of conversation. In terms of possible motive for this.
Well, anytime you look at something and you know through a prism of suspicion, it can absolutely look unsettling, and so I try not to put too much into how it looks in hindsight. But what I'm absolutely certain of is that the guy should be talked to. He should have been back then, and he should be now. There are a lot of questions that need answering. I mean, Beth talked to her friends the morning that she died. She talked about having gotten pulled over for a speeding
ticket that day. She talked about yelling at that maintenance man. It is very odd that to none of them she mentioned the supposed encounter hanging out with her boss in her apartment the night before she died. It's just the kind of thing that you would expect her to share with her girlfriends, especially the one who worked at the same place with her.
Absolutely, absolutely, you have another person of again, incredible interest as we go on in this. It's just amazing. What again, I know better, but I'm looking at people going, well, that person looks good for this. But then we have another character that looks very good as well, very very interesting. This boyd Glasscock tell us about this incident with Glasscock and what he does after the murder of Beth, and his relationship with Bob.
Boy.
Glassclock was a I guess you could say, an acquaintance of Bob's. He painted houses with Bob over the summer. I think at some point became fixated on Bob as a person.
And.
After Beth's death, came to Bob's parents' house and presented Bob with a pin cushion. What we know of the pincushion is that it had some sort of red liquidsh material on it, so it was you know, in hindsight. Bob says, you know, it could have been blood, but that he didn't understand why Boyd would be presenting him with this pincushion, And of course Bob didn't keep it at the time, just wanted him out of his house.
I think Bob's dad ended up kicking him out. One thing to note from of Beth was that she was very much into fashion. She was always sewing, and so the pincushion seems to be some sort of symbolic nature too, but that Bob didn't seem to understand at the time.
What did what else did he have to say to Bob in terms of it's amazing the relationship that he thought he had. Would tell us about this, his idea of the relationship he had with Bob, and the idea he had about the feelings Bob had for Beth. Very interesting conversation.
Boyd said that Bob actually was in love with him, with Boyd that he wasn't in love with Beth, and and Bob said, what on earth gave you that idea? And Boyd said, well, because we were out painting these houses and we went to get you know, food, and you said, I'll by this time, you get next time. And somehow Boyd apparently translated that in his head as I'm in love with you, So he had he had he had an unusual fixation on Bob, and then inserted himself in the in the case by showing up at
Bob's house and theorizing about what's been the best. It ended up being very concerning to Bob, but he didn't quite understand like where it all fit in and how it might affect the investigation. So Boyd's name was mentioned by that defense lawyer once upon a time in the letter to prosecutors. They went so far as to ask for an alibi. He said he was at the ice Capades in Lexington. I believe it was Kentucky, a couple hours away, in other words, from Oxford, and that was it.
That was that was all they looked into him. I cannot explain Boyd's behavior giving a griev man a supposedly blood covered pincushion as a gift when his girlfriend had just been killed with sewing shears is very bizarre.
What do you think about the idea that this was enough motive for him to kill is What evidence do you have other than this bizarre altercation? But is there any evidence that may include him as possible killer.
This one's an interesting personality for us to weigh because the lawyer in the case, the one who initially mentioned it to the Inquirer's lawyer that Andy's family lawyer is very certain in her mind that Boyd Glascock is a key person of interest needs to be looked at seriously, not just for this case, but she believes that he might be involved in other murders as well. I have
found no evidence pointing to that. His behavior is absolutely bizarre, but somebody who behaves bizarrely doesn't necessarily become violent, and we have not found anything that points to him having been violent. He was arrested a couple of weeks before Beth's murder, and that's it's clear that he had mental health issues. There's no question that there was some kind of problem there, and in fact, his family member whom
I interviewed, she said the same. But if he had mental health issues and he was going down a path of violence, he would think that in between Beth's murder and his death in the nineties that there would have been maybe something else tied to him, and there wasn't as far as we know.
Now. They talk about the other person of interest and I don't have his last name in front of me, but the person named r J. Why is this RJ a person of interest? And tell us more about him?
Well, we didn't include him in our if not Bob Who episodes, but we absolutely included him in the overall He was mentioned in that defense lawyer letter. R J was a friend.
R J.
Bialela was a friend of Beth's from the Canton area and he had known her since high school. They were buddies, and he is when we interviewed him, he made it clear that he was very emotionally attached to Beth and and in fact said that if she had lived, maybe the two of them would have married. But as far as we know, there was never any relationship beyond friendship.
So in the defense letter there's mentioned of her having maybe rebuffed in advance at a Christmas party a few days before her death, but that was never looked into. RJ was not interviewed by a police in any meaningful way, and there's no alibi on record for him.
You right that you find that odd that he wasn't asked to provide an alibi? Is that true?
Well? Neither was buzz for me. The odd part is just looking at how many obvious obvious oversights there were in the investigation. I mean, when somebody is murdered, you think that their friends are going to be interviewed. That seems logical, and that everybody acquainted with her would be asked their whereabouts the night that she died, but that didn't happen.
Here you talk about the other roommate, did you were surprised to find out? And I guess didn't know about it all. I believe his name's John Shay. What did he have to say when you spoke to him?
He said he had never been contacted by police, and jeeves, I probably should have been, shouldn't I That's one of those strange, inexplicable oversights.
And he had made it clear to us that he would be happy going forward. To help with any investigations.
Interesting, A big part of this story is too is the contribution from a volunteer group of experts called and again if I mispronounces VIDOC society, tell us a little bit about the society and your interaction with them. What did they help you do or see? Tell us about that.
VEDOC is this really cool group of experts in a variety of fields. So you might have polygraphers there, you might have former homicide detectives, pathologists. They basically get together monthly in Philadelphia and look at cold cases that somebody will come in with a presentation and they'll look at what they've got and say, you know, so and so might have done it. And it's this cool thing because you've got these people with this huge, you know, so
much experience in one room that it's mind boggling. But at the same time, we did kind of realize that they were limited to what the presentation was, so we went and talked to them and learned a lot about polygraphs because those played a role in the investigation. And then we subsequently interviewed they a profiler there who was just a real jerk.
I hold back a lot, so you know, Yeah, why tell us? So why you believe? Again? It's very interesting. I mean it's been quite a few books of as of late that they've been beaten up on profilers by showing profiles that were wildly inaccurate. So you didn't ask him maybe for a profile, but you spoke to a profiler. Why was he a jerk? What was it about? What was a jerk about him? What did he have to say?
Well, he he was, he liked He called me a little woman and told me I was being coquettish. I'm not sure if I'm coming across as coquettish at the moment. I've never been in my life. Basically, the ten the tenor of the kind conversation was, hey, little girl, what do you know? Why are you looking at this being a detective? Stop being a detective? So you're playing detective? Well you know the detectives aren't. So what do you want me to do here?
So?
Yeah, there, the profile role is pretty You need to have a certain kind of personality and no doubt, it seems to draw big egos and you kind of have to stick your line a lot and trust your gut. So all of that, maybe it wouldn't that personality type, wouldn't make a good journalist.
Now, let's talk about somebody that has been on this program just recently with his fantastic book Sons of Canes and that incredible homicide investigation over from the beginning of time. Peter Vronsky, historian and author. You asked him about the possibility of a serial killer working or in or around
Ohio being the perpetrator of Best Murder. You looked into this, you spoke to Peter Vronsky, tell us a little bit about what he had to say and what you found in relation to that possibly a serial killer could be responsible for this.
I'm glad to hear you've had him on. He's a really interesting guy. Yeah, yeah, I really liked that episode. Well, when you're looking at who might have killed somebody, obviously you're looking first of people who know him, because, as mentioned, statistically, that's the most likely place you're going to find a killer.
But if it's not one of those people, you're either dealing with somebody who happens to have just won off killed a human being for no reason but didn't know them, or you're looking at somebody who has maybe killed before or killed since and then you're dealing with serial killer. So in other words, if we if we didn't have an idea of who it was, if we weren't hitting on the right people, and then serial killer is definitely
in the realm of possibilities. And there was a lot of that going on, and so I reached out to Vronsky because he has written a number of books on serial killers, and he presented a pretty fascinating theory as to why we saw so many in the late seventies and through the eighties. And his theory is that these are people who were raised by World War Two veterans, and that those people came back traumatized and damaged and
basically in turn damaged their kids. Because the theory is that your personality is set, you know, by around age five. So instead of looking at what was going on in seventy eight, you need to be looking at what was happening about, you know, twenty thirty years prior. And there you go.
You did come up with a name that not to say this is the person, but a possibility after you looked at Again, I laughed because you talked about the Edward Wayne Edwards. But again you talked about the author, and he his credibility is not so good because he claims Edward Wayne Edwards killed almost everybody in America. That's high profile case. But you did zero in on a guy named Nolan George. Tell us a little bit about why.
Well, Nolan rayed George was known to kill around here, so proximity wise that's a plus. But both strangling and stabbing were methods that he used, though usually I don't remember it being together, but at least separately he used those. And we started to go down this path and we were getting pretty excited, and then we realized, oh, well, but he was arrested and he was in prison during this time, and so then we started to look another direction, and then Amanda found Yeah, by chance.
We were looking at different articles and different things and came across a past article from I think it was an Inquire archive that said that Nolan Ray George had escaped from prison for two months I believe, right around the time that Beth was killed.
Wow, so we have this guy who was looking kind of good, and then we take him off the table because oh, he's in prison, and then all of a sudden we're like, oh wait, but he wasn't. He wasn't. Just in this tiny window of time he happened to have escaped.
Yeah, in this investigation too, you mentioned the wild goose chase, and so we talk about nineteen seventy eight. We mentioned it many times on this there was no DNA so and there was protocol on how to keep evidence. There even were rules as to gather evidence and keep evidence,
but they did not know about DNA. So now when you look at DNA and somebody says, well, now, all you'd have to do is, do you know because of the testing advances with DNA, tell us about your journey you call a wild goose chase to find evidence that was at these trials, evidence that the police should have tell us about this evidence.
There was a lot of evidence gathered from the scene. We've got lists describing the evidence. Unfortunately, we don't have bags full of the evidence because they lost it. So when we heard early on in our investigation that they didn't have the evidence, at first, we're like, okay, well, then what's the point of all this? What can we do? But we started to research what it means for evidence to be lost and we discovered that a lot of times it's just misplaced. It's in somebody's basement, it's in
you know, a city building's attic. So we started to look through trying to find the paper trail for the evidence. You know, it made it through two trials, so we followed it to that end, and I would I would say, we still have hope that that's going to turn up, because yes, the wild Goose Chase part was that you know, you place one phone call and they say, ah, we
can't find it. But if you call so and so, and then you call so and so and she says, oh, I don't know what you're talking about, but you know you can go check with this guy, and this guy sends you back to so and so and it's just like hitting her head against a wall. But the good part, I think for me, in investigating this case and laying it out in both the podcasts and the book, we got to show people how much work goes into the work of journalism, and that has been really rewarding hearing
from people who just had no idea. You know, when somebody declines comment you can't find something, it's not a matter of you know, I tried for thirty minutes. It can be a matter of we tried for a year.
Right now with this incredible investigation. You first did this podcast, and like you say, this is transcribed, what is next after this book? Not to keep people hanging, but what is next with this podcast Accused, with this book, with this investigation, Well.
We have a second season that took a look a nineteen eighty seven case in Newport, Kentucky. That one's also going to be compiled. So if audio isn't your thing, we'll have that out in book form, I believe next year. And at the moment we are starting research on a third season. Accused did very well as a podcast, and the nicest part about that is that we were never focused on or instructed to pay attention to download numbers
or that kind of success. We were told do good journalism, and we got very lucky in that our good journalism was successful commercially. And so now right this moment, my job is to reinvestigate cold cases and it's kind of a dream job for me. It's what I'm good at, so hopefully I'll be able to do it until they tell me to stop.
But we do still keep in touch with the folks, you know, best friends, trying to stay on top of anything that might become available for best case, and you know, Amber still calling police and holding them accountable and checking in on where the case may be and if they're still looking into it.
And amazingly, I have to say some of the people who follow us are they're doing their best to hold the officials accountable too. They call them up and then them emails and and that's it means a lot to me. The best story has resonated so much that people who hear it or read about it are moved to try and help her.
And there is a real possibility too. We've seen things happen from documentaries making a murderer. We've seen things in cases where podcasts have spurred the law enforcement to reopen cases, and so part of this, as you mentioned before, I
guess it's good to say it stated again. One of the purposes is to hopefully again with this publication of this book, is to have somebody take this ball and run with it, continue this investigation still with the pursuit of trying to find the answer to who killed Elizabeth.
Isn't it absolutely that's what we want. I mean, I can't subpoena people, and I can't I can't ask for search warrants, so I did my best and I took it as far as I can take it as a journalist. Now police need to do their jobs and pick up from where we left off.
Absolutely. I want to thank you Amber Hunt and Amanda Rossman for coming on and talking about Accused. For those that might want to check out your incredible podcast and this book tell us about how they can where they can find Accused, and how they might if you have a Facebook page or website for the book itself, how they might just find out more information, where to get the book, et cetera.
There are quick links on my website, reporter Amber dot com all of the podcasts and the books and stuff like that. But anywhere you listen to podcasts, we're there. The book is available on Amazon and at your local bookstore, and if it's not there, please ask for it. Yeah, and on Twitter, We're Accused podcast now on Facebook, we're the same.
We're there easy to find. Well. Again, thank you very much, Amber Hunt and Amanda Rossman. It's been a great pleasure talking about Accused, the unsolved murder of Elizabeth Andys. Thank you very much, and you have a great evening. Hope to talk to you again.
Thank you, thank you, good night, good night, good Night
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