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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good evening with shocking insights into one of the most talked about murder cases in American history. Abomination, Devil Worship and Deception in the West Memphis Three Murders reveals the truth about the death of three children in West Memphis, Arkansas,
in nineteen ninety three. My analyzing original police transcripts and court documents William Ramsey conclusively proves that witchcraft and the occult were involved in the heinous murders and that a continuing wall of deception has prevented the public from realizing the awful truth about the West Memphis three child killings.
The book that we're featuring this sevening is Abomination, Devil Worship and Deception in the West Memphis Three Murders with my special guest journalist and author and historian William Ramsey. Welcome to the program, William Ramsey, Dan.
Thank you very much for having me on your show. It's great to be here.
Thank you very much. This is one of the more intriguing cases among all the intriguing cases that I this program features. So let's get right to this. Why were you compelled to about this book about this case? Parton me was what was it about this case that interested you so much and why?
Well, I was researching some information about Alistair Crowley. My first book was called Profit of Evil. It was basically a biography about Alistair Crowley. And as I was researching my second book, I came across a clip on YouTube of the West Memphis three case and it was about Alistair Crowley. And I had seen this documentary Paradise Lost about nineteen ninety six, but I hadn't really keyed into
that factor of the case. So when I saw that Alistair Crowley was involved in the case and I had an interest in him, I immediately kind of was curious about why that was the case, and it kind of led me to really research the West Memphis three case. Had Like I had said, I'd seen the documentary, but I really hadn't got into the details of the case,
and there was they had been released. The West Memphis Three were released from prison in two thousand eve and I was really just trying to figure out what happened. So it led me to find all the case filels which are available online at Callahans dot org. You can find it there. So I really researched the case. In my conclusions were a lot different than what the public was saying about the West Memphis Three.
So this murder happened in nineteen ninety three, So tell us in what year you began this investigation that you became compelled to do this investigation, and at what point in this entire case. Where were they in this case at that time?
Well, they were released. I started really researching the West Memphis Three in twenty twelve. I was relatively late compared to a lot of other authors and researchers, but the West Memphis Three were released on in August of twenty eleven.
They pled an Alfred ple, which is based upon the Supreme Court case North Carolina Verse is Alfred, which allows people to plead legally guilty while maintaining public innocence and so they actually signed pleased that made them guilty for first degree murder and they were released, And it really kind of was I had seen it. I didn't really think much of it when they were released, but once I was researching the case, it really took a fascinating
art arch of the case. The actual murders took place on May fifth of nineteen ninety three. Three young boys, Christopher Byers, Michael Moore, and Stephen Branch went out for a bike ride in West Memphis, Arkansas. It's right across the river west of Memphis, Tennessee, and they left at dusk and they were really never seen again. There was a huge search that took place for the boys and the next day they were found in a ditch close
to the freeway. They were horrifically. They were a really bad shaped one of them it's rather graphic, but one had his generals removed and two others were tied in knots and later they found they were drowned in water. So there was this horrific crime and the police really
were trying to figure out who did it. They they brought a lot of people over from the Drug Task Force of West Memphis to this murder case and really ferreted out and researched too it could be and what they came across from one person, the name of Damian Eckles, was popped into the police consciousness. They found out about this person and they really started researching him and looking into his path, and eventually they brought in one of
his friends. His name was Jesse miss Kelly. They brought him in for an interrogation, whereupon he admitted to committing the crime with with Damian Eccles and Jason Baldwin, so all three of them became known as the West Memphis Three. They're arrested on June sixth of nineteen ninety three, and it brought along a trial and they were false. There
were two two separate crows. Jesse Msskelly was separated a trial from Jason Baldwin and Damien Eckles, but they were all found guilty in two separate trials by twenty four jurors, and Jason Baldwin and Jesse ms Kelly were given life
sentences and Damian Eckles was given the death penalty. He was scheduled for execution on the exact date of the murders one year later on May fifth, nineteen ninety four, and the case took a strange turn when these documentaries documentarians Berlin jer and Sinofsky went to West Memphis to record the murder trial and create this documentary that was known as Paradise Lost, the first one there were. It's
actually a trilogy. Three documentaries were put out, but the first one was released in nineteen ninety six, and it created kind of a groundswell. It's very similar in fact to make King of a Murderer documentaries that came out where the public received a lot of information thinking they had received the totality of the information about the case
and actually were sympathetic. So there was sympathetic towards Damian Echles and Jason Ballwood and just miss Kelly, and slowly it kind of grounds while the public support grew for these three boys who were supposedly railroaded by the authorities in West Memphis, and it led to kind of a cost eleb. Basically, a lot of celebrities such as Johnny Depp, Henry Rawlins, girls from the Dixie Chicks, Eddie Vetter all started supporting them and that's what led to their release.
Something like there was. It's estimated there was ten to
twenty million dollars that was raised. And what happened was they there was a rule that was passed in Arkansas that pertained to DNA evidence, and that allowed the appellate attorney to take this case back to court and put pressure on the prosecutors and then the people in Arkansas, and eventually what happened is the judge, one of the judges, was removed, a new judge was put on, and eventually they came to this conclusion where they were going to
pleate guilty and then twenty eleven they were released.
Let's go back to the crime scene. We have to go back to quite a few things actually to explain how this confession came about and the circumstances in which the investigation proceeded to Damien Eckels, and then the gathering of the information that supported their conclusions as to motive and to the suspects. So let's go back to the crime scene. Who discovered the bodies and under what circumstances and what was the evidence that was found solely at that site.
Well, they were they were looking all over the kind of West Memphis area. What they went to is this place robin Hood Hills where the boys were last seen and it was in the Derek drainage ditch. One of the detectives, Burned Ridge, was looking through he had seen a piece of clothing in this ditch and that's where he found the bodies of the three boys. Is in this ditch. He found that their bodies were put down
into the dirt with sticks in the mud. And you know, there was evidence of wounds on the side of one of the boy's face more and you know, that's when they discovered that they were bound in this strange fashion.
Now, was there any other evidence footprints? Of course, they did whatever forensic investigation right at the scene. But what was the totality of the physical evidence they had to go from to gather leads from right at that crime.
Well, they had some evidence. They found some blue wax that was found there. There was at that time they actually found and did a luminol test that brought up there was tons of blood in that area, and at that time the luminol was not admissible in a court of law for you know, evidence. But as far as everything else, you know, they they just had a bunch of rumors about what was going on in the park
in that area. They had heard from other things that people were in the park, that there were kind of self south statanist groups, and that's really kind of where they led off to try to figure out who could have caused this crime.
You talked just briefly about the condition of the young boys. You said there was the castration, removal of the young man's penis. These were three eight year olds. Tell us the graphic, Well, give us the graphic details of what you talk about. The tying of the of the the young boys. That's important. What was under evidence suggested, I mean, we're we're talking about evidence being severely compromised once they
are in the water. So explain that and explain what they could deduce from what they did see and have at that scene.
I mean, they deduced the boys were found in a very strange way. It was right arm to right leg, left arm to left leg, and it was it was kind of like a hog tie two of the boys and the other one. I mean the medical examiner Peretti, who was on in the trial, said that the buyer's boy had his penis and scrutum cut off. It was like his penis was sheeped, so there was piece of it on the inside. He said, it would have taken very much skill to actually remove that in such a way.
And like I said, there were deeper wounds, and they really were just trying to ascertain who could have done that. There was water, ditch was drained, there was you know, that was basically it, and that's kind of what they had to go on. They didn't have too much evidence based upon the fact that the boys were in the water.
Right now, there was other stab wounds and other evidence of mutilation to the boys, wasn't there, correct?
I mean, there's what they had. Evidence that one had serious wounds to the left side of his face and two of them had forcible injuries to their skulls like cracked school. So they were beat up pretty bad.
Now, right away, this is not something in a community of West Memphis, Arkansas. You say, population nineteen ninety three, twenty eight thousand, not so common, this kind of psycho psycho killing, psycho murder. When did the FBI get involved? And tell us again, the investigation right away centers on
a person named Damian Eccles. But tell us about what the police do in terms of the stories that they gather the in terms of evidence that there was something going on of a satanic nature, a ritualistic nature, or a satanic nature. Tell us about that.
Well, the FBI came in and assisted by providing kind of a behavioral and psychological study of the killer at the time, and there were Florence specialists drew up to West Memphis from the state capital of Little Rock to help with the collection of evidence. But they were collecting people came forward and talked about what was happening in robin Wood Hills. People told the police that kids was black and red hair hang out there in a cult.
They said that they had seen people wearing pentagrams and they heard of like you know, stars of David are basically a hexagram that said you know that we're around there. So people had seen sacrificed animals in Robinhood around that time as well, and they'd also seen you know, smell
smoke and hear chanting and strange music. So there were tons of this this kind of and the case files show this that all this evidence was being provided to police a lot of through police reports from a variety of different subjects that you know, this was going on in the area.
Now, for those people that might say, you know, maybe teenagers are a little bit different these days. I know, my nephew or my niece wears black eyeliner and and you know, nail polish. How common is this, whether it's a community to twenty eight thousand, with the reports that you saw and the in terms of the numerous calls that you saw, how common do you think this is They're going to be just dismissed as some kind of teenage sort of hobby, fad or infatuation.
That's a great question. I think that there is a subculture in the United States of kind of gods and people who are who get involved in witchcraft, and it happens all over the country. I've shown my book that there were other type of malevolent killings of people that were influenced by the occult, and I think specifically in west of Memphis there there definitely was something going on.
It's all, you know. All the evidence shows that there were groups hanging out at this old cottingen they call it Stonehenge, and there were all kinds of activities taking place there. Bonfires and even Miss Kelly talked about the killing of dogs and sacrificing of dogs, and it came from a different, you know, wide variety of areas. So I think the commonality of the witchcraft you know, isn't huge.
But you know, I showed in my book that there there are a ton of cases where it actually is a motivating factor in murders.
For those of us that liked the definitions for things being real rigid, let's get to right now the definition for the FBI of a satanic crime. You say it's a satanic crime, yet it may not lack those specific ritualistic I'll let you explain the differences in your definition and the FBI's definition.
Well, I mean I think that the FBI, and you know, somebody who was involved in the case, for example, was
John Douglas. Their definition goes back to the Landing Report, who was Keith lank Kenneth Lanning was a supervisory special agent in their in their behavioral science unit, and he basically said that there isn't really any cult activity and that this kind of sexual victimization of children wasn't is not a cult motivated And so the FBI really goes back and uses that, and my my definition is definitely different I My definition is that you know, if it's
if these people are heavily involved in the occult and they're motivated by their occult ideas to murder, then I think murder can be defined as a as an occult, you know, a cult influenced murder. Whereas the the FBI themselves do not even believe that you know that these
type of these type of murders take place. Uh so you know, they their their their specific statement is their definition, and it's a specific definition of satanic murder, says murder committed by two or more individuals who rationally plan the crime, whose primary motivated invasion is to fulfill a prescribed Satanic ritual calling for the murder. So it's a very specific standard. And I think that that you know, demand so much pre pre preliminary thought to go through with it that
for me, I don't think. I don't I think that actually kind of narrows the the the possibility of this, you know, of that description applying to certain crimes where it actually is happening. And you know the other thing is that I think the FBI standard is dependent upon having those facts that show that there is you know, a primary motivation and that they're rationally planning, when you know a lot of some of these acts are typically irrational and they're not going to actually state that for
the police to understand that it's happening. If that makes sense.
Yeah, Now let's talk about Damien Echos and he changed his name to Damien, and there's various reports he is, there's conflicting reports why he would call himself Damien. But tell us what his real name is, and tell us about his parents, and tell us a little bit about the real record on what the police found from their records, from the medical records and legal records on Damien Eccles eighteen News of age.
That's a great question. There's a lot of there were tons of records that were brought forth in the trial. But he was born Michael Hutchinson. He is the son of Pamela and Andrew Joe excuse me, Pamela and Joe Hutchinson who were divorced and he Pamela remarried a guy by the name of Andrew Eckles, and Mike Hutchinson became Damien Eckles. He took on the name Damien. There is some dispute whether he took it after the name of the central character of the anti Christ character from the
omen Or. He claimed that he took it from the name of a Catholic priest who assisted lepers in Hawaii. But I think the name is more consistent with his sensibilities which are in the occult, and we can go into that in greater detail. But he before the crimes, Damien Eckles was you know, he had no at eighteen, he had no driver's license, no automobile, and he had
been in hospitals twice. He had actually been arrested after being found by police in West Memphis hiding in a trailer and after threatening to kill the police officer and his girlfriend's father. He was charged with burgo rebreaking and entering disorderly conduct, sexual misconduct, and terroristic threatening. So this
was before the crimes. He was sent for a stay at the juvi Or Juvenile Detention Center on May twenty sixth, nineteen ninety two, almost a year to the day before the murders took place, and he he basically was in and out of three different mental institutions and this came up at the at the penalty phase of his death penalty hearing his own PI went out and collected all of this information so that his attorneys could have it for court, and it became his PI was by the
name of Ronald Lax, who's deceased, but it's become known as Exhibits five hundred because there's actually five hundred pages of psychiatric and evaluation information in this voluminous kind of file, and it goes into detail about Damien Echle's sensibilities, what he thought about his family, his ideas about the occult, and it's very voluminous. I only, you know, took part of it out for my book, but it indicates so much.
And these are all by third parties in two different places, taking place in Arkansas, and while the Hutchison family was briefly in Oregon, Eckles was in an organ mental institution as well, So he was in two different mental institutions and two states, and they're fairly consistent testimony. It talks about Eckles being dangerous, irritable, involved in bizarre and unusual behavior. Echles, Damian Eckles, believed in blood drinking, which is a consistent
kind of thing. He doesn't he admit admitted to practicing witchcraft and stated he was a practicing warlock. So this is a person who you know was involved in the occult prior to the murders. He uh, he burned his forearms. So you know, there's tons of information about echoes in detail that really show somebody who really is capable of these type of murders. And uh, it's a really I know, I bid book detailed it, uh in detail.
Now for those I just happened to do some research just a few weeks ago on my own for my own interest and read about Alistair Crowley and Hermetic code and uh, the philosophy do thou thou what thou wilst, which means basically, do whatever you want as long as no one gets hurt except Alistair Crowley. And you provide a lot of this information in the book that Alistair Crowley, in real terms and practical terms had a much more sinister philosophy than do what you want or do what
you will avoid sexual and moral repression. You know, because he lived in the time of nineteen hundred to nineteen forty seven, so eighteen seventy five or whatever it was, so a time of sexual and moral repression. But really tell us about Aleister Crowley, his philosophy in real terms what he really did have to say and how it relates to Damien Eccles and his interest and also relates to things like animal sacrifice.
Right. So Crowley was born in eighteen seventy five. He died, like he said, in nineteen forty seven. He was a wealthy Englishman and at some point in his life, when he went to Cambridge, he became interested in the occult and he rebelled against what he grew up in, which is a Christian faith. He wanted to get in personal communication with the devil, and he basically changed his kind of name to He was born as Edward Alexander. He became Alistair and kind of like the echo was changing
his name and referred to himself as the Beast. He really thought that magic worked. He was trying to be in contact with super you know, human entities, and he really was an influence upon the twentieth century. He wrote the Book of the Law, and his ideas, like you said, was do with thou wilt. He believed in total permissiveness and freedom, and his whole phrase was do with thou wilt should be the whole of the loss of the eleven word phrase eleven was kind of his kind of
favorite number. And Cruy talked about human sacrifice. He talked about the choicest sacrifice as a young child of perfect intelligence. And those were the three kids who died, and you know, they were eight years old. And he one of his books is Lib sixty six where he talked about child sacrifice. And so this cruelly cruelly is an important part of
the case. Like I talked about earlier, why I got involved in the case was during the trial, Crowley was brought up by one of the prosecutors because Eccles had been scribbling something in a kind of secret language that had the name of Alistair Croley on it in kind of this cryptic language, and it kind of brought got brought up. And Eccles, actually, i've found out, was a member of Croley's Oto. It's a secret society. It's the Ordo Templey Orientus. He's a member. He had his library
there in Arkansas, they had his magical library. And he also stated recently that he was prosecuted because of his love of Aleister Crowley, and which is odd because people at the time, back in nineteen ninety three didn't know the totality of his interests. You know, they knew that he had a pentagram carved into his chest as a tattoo. But you know, so Crowley is an interesting element of this of this case, and it goes to this case.
And it's interesting since since Eccles has been released, he's been seen with people who are interesting Crawley as well. I wrote a piece about him in The Satanic Underground and he's been seen with other interesting Curley aficionados. So Auster Crowley is I think an important element in this case. And there's there. He actually Cruelly had something he called the Seal of Babylon, which was kind of a seven letter,
seven starred kind of insignia. And Damien Eckles has got this huge back tattoo that is a black son with this kind of same motif on his back. So he's he's doing things that are consistent with kind of Cruelly's symbology.
Let's get to something a little bit more specific, because this is some of the stuff that's controversial to some people or maybe even absurd to some people, but it is specific. Let's talk about the significance of eight year olds. Let's talk about why young boys were important in terms of Crowley and the philosophy itself and some of the
other things that were done to the boys. So tell us where you're as you bring up in the book the evidence that points to specific necessary things that happened that otherwise might seem very very random and crazy.
We'll say, well, just the fact that he was drawing. He was interested in sacrificing a child. He had talked about that with his girlfriend, and I put in the book that they're you know, there's a drawing of done by his girlfriend of child sacrifice under a moon in a in a kind of cemetery environment, so you can
see that in there. But the eight year old, you know, he's he's you know, Crawley, like I said earlier, male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim that comes from magic and they and practice. So you know, he was very much Curley was interested in sacrifice. And what happened on May fifth of nineteen ninety three was on a full moon. The children were tied with these ties that indicate and are
significant in the occult because they maintain magical power. These these knots are actually called they accord magic is really what they reference to it. And that's what I believe, and that's what I drew comparison to is these magic knots and cord magic that was in and reference in a book called Bucklan's Complete Book of Witchcraft, which which Damien Eckles had used as a reference point and actually told people that he wanted a copy of it while he was in while he was in prison. So this
cord magic is very in. The children were bound in a very strange manner with different knots of different styles, and so I believe that the knots are significant and similar to what would be in this wiccan or occult magic. And you know that's one of the other things and things. These things take place in full moons are very important to the wick and calendar. The deaths happened close to Belltane. They were about three or four days outside of Beltane.
So I do believe that there is a consistency. And Damian Echles is still a practicing magician. He's still tattooing his body with even alphabet with the cryptic occult symbols and the Enochian alphabet which is from John D. And there's a Kelly who was his kind of describe. So these are things that go back to the Western esoterica
tradition that Taman Eckles is interested. And he actually said in this documentary West of Memphis that was produced by Peter Jackson that he wanted to be the greatest magician that I ever lived. That's the way he thinks of himself after getting out of jail.
Now, I wanted to ask this question, is when we talk about some of the things that the police were information the police were getting from people, third party persons talking about what Damien did at certain points, tell us about the incidents of him photographing people and its importance before we give that little bit of information away, but its importance to again the cruelly and satanic philosophy.
Well, I think there was people came forward and gave testimony to the police of all different types of things that make it into the trial. But there was one family who came forward and said that Damien Eckles was seen in a bush taking pictures of his kids to girls age nine and eleven, And there were other photographs that were in supposedly in the possession of Eccles, of the boys that he killed, so some people actually believed
that he stocked his victims before they were murdered. On May fifth, nineteen ninety three, there was the black a black briefcase that it contained their drugs and these pictures that other people testified about, So, uh, there is there was a potential that other people were being you know, stalked him. And he said two girls heard him admit to the murders and they were they their testimony was
granted in court. It was never recanted or anything. But they also said that Eckles was going to kill two more. He was gunning for five total victims, and some of the evidence of what was happening before the murders indicated that that was the case. So, you know the mentality of you know, sacrifice, and it seems like they escalated all the way up to human sacrifice through animal sacrifice. There were other people who came to the police said
their dogs were stolen. They had seen Jason Baldwin taking their dog. So they are very harrowing and scary statements that were given to police about equals and Baldwin.
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How much did they know? And how much they know or do they think they know about Jim ms Kelly Junior. Why talk to Jim ms Kelly before Jason Baldwin or Damian Eccles tell us about the circumstances that Jim ms Kelly comes to be the first person that they really question.
Great question, it's Jesse ms Kelly. So Jesse ms Kelly Jr. Pardon was question on June third, he was brought into the police station. I think he actually the police actually drove to Jesse mss Kelly Junior's DADA to ask if he could come in for questioning. They were still looking around. I don't think the police at this point knew the totality of what was going on with Eccles and Baldwin, even though Eckles was a person of interest. But what happened was he was brought in at about nine to
forty five. There was they didn't really record right away, but there is a recorded part of it that they actually gave Jesse a lie detector test which he failed. The polygraph failed, and then they started asking him questions and he basically started talking after about two or three hours, and he gave his first statement at about two forty five, and that's what led to the arrest of Damien and Jason.
But once they made it to trial, this first confession was basically attacked, you know, very standard stuff for defense people to do, because Jesse wasn't being specific about some of the stuff. And Jesse said that he was intentionally being deceptive. But the uh, the the confession that he gave was was close enough to you know, end up
getting all three of them arrested. And you know, he gave a lot of details that were specific to the crime about the kids, about him chasing one bat back one down and bring him back and tell.
Us about the tell us about specifically what he said in that first confession regarding details about.
The murders, well, he specifically said Damien raped fire, So he raped one of the boys and then they both both chasing and Damien raped Branch. So it's very very graphic and there was different types of sex sex and uh, basically they were holding him down while while this uh you know, this kind of torture that was taking place,
and it was it was very detailed. They uh he said that he had him in a headlock, that at one point one of the kids got away, he chased him down and he said Jesse seemed to say that he left before the kids were disposed of that before that they were murdered, but you know, it was pretty graphic and very very for me thou and that the recording of the first confession is online.
Now forensically through the whether they were in the water or not. Were the police concerned about forensic corroboration with some of the details that he had specifically at about the murder. They realized early on that this guy had a sort of a frustrating sort of manner in terms of discounting himself or contradicting himself ten seconds from an earlier statement, But in terms of the actual details of
the murder, did they line up forensically? Was there were they cognizant of that the situation at that time when he was given those that dev of information.
Yeah, I think there was some consistencies of what happened to the boy. The beatings and the kind of torture that took place was consistent with what happened was found through the medical examination. So I think without a doubt there were consistencies there there. It wasn't there wasn't anything that was super strong that tied him directly to it. But he did he did say, you know, he talked about
the ropes. He did he talked about things, and you know, they didn't find in the medical examination any evidence of sexual assault. It was really just miss Kelly's statement or his confession that indicated that. So there were there were some inconsistencies between what was able to be found and what the confession.
Was, such as the rope versus what they were actually bound with, right.
Right, So he said rope and they were actually bound with with shoe strings, and you know, so he was kind of he was consistent to a certain extent, but like I said, you know, there were definitely variance. Is an understanding that that the defense definitely brought up during Trump.
What was Jesse ms Kelly's I guess he's confessing, so he's not doesn't have an alibi. And part of what you say about in terms of the inconsistencies are the gross in in inconsistencies in terms of the time the time frame here timeline, I should say this is enough evidence to get Jason Baldwin arrested and Damian eckles tell us what happens with Jason Baldwin before you talk about Damian eccles.
Well, Jason, Jason Baldwin and they were essentially arrested and brought in a lot of people started giving testimony, but they were both tried separately, and Jason Baldwin was he basically had no alibi. There was no stated alibi in the trial, which was interesting. So he really didn't say anything about that as far as you know specifics. When they were arrested, a lot of people get testimony about or talk to police and journalists about Baldwin and eccles
involvement in the occult. And then Damian Eckles tried to commit suicide on June eighth, about five days after their arrest.
What about Damien echles alibi was it supported? What was his alibi?
Well, they couldn't find it. He said that he was on the phone with three different women during the time of the murders. The murders were suspected to have taken place sometime at dusk, sometime in the late afternoon or early evening of that May fifth night, and he said he was on the phone. And then when the police investigated the supposed people that he was on the phone with out that it was either on different days or it just wasn't consistent with the times that he provided.
What's the most one of the most fascinating parts elements of your book, which is an incredible and fascinating book itself, is the way Damien Echols conducts himself in an interview again when especially when the police are bringing up the occult accusations and any evidence that they bring up, what is his demeanor like, how does he conduct himself before we get to again what you have pointed out is very crucial and I agree with you the talk of the urine.
Right well, Damien Echols was he was interviewed right away after the murders and he indicated kind of a lot of things about what happened in the case. He really talked about what he thought about who did it, why they did it. That he actually said that there was a likelihood that the person did it because they enjoyed it, and you know it was it was a very remarkable statement.
The the nobody had known because the boys were in the water that there was any urine involved, but the uh, you know, Damien Echles when he was first interviewed, said that you know there was something having to having to do. He said, you know that there was something involved with urine in it. And then what happens was when they when they actually investigated the medical investigator and he.
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Investigated two weeks later. He found evidence of urine in there in their stomachs, and so Hackles himself had to there's no reason why he would have brought that up with the crucial initial interview that took place May seventh between him and the police.
In terms of doing himself any favors, in terms of the question about the cult, how does he conduct himself in that area, as.
Far as like his his involvement in the occult as the the initial part of the trial, you know, he had I mean, it's hard, it was hard for him to completely deny it. He at the time he had the tattoo of E. V I L tattoo to cross his left knuckles, and so did James Jason Baldwin. But he couldn't really, he couldn't really denied. I don't I don't. I don't think that he they really asked him too much about the occult initially, but they definitely brought it
up during the trial. But he said like he was doing.
He was.
He's he had stated stuff that he had liked the Bible and the Book of Revelations. He liked the devil, so he you know, he brought that up at the original the the original interview. He also said something about the power, so he kind of indicated that he knew about the cult. He said something about the the innocence of the victim, the more power that the person would have gotten in the sacrifice. So he did or reveals stuff at the very beginning, now that I remember it.
And he also, you know, he he in his initial interview or the time that the police talked to him on May seventies said stuff about the wake of religion and about evil being rewarded three times. So he definitely showed that, you know, that there was He definitely showed that he was interested in the occult when he was first interviewed.
Was there any move by his attorneys to have him psychiatrically assessed for the trial?
Not that not that I recall. I don't recall that they had full let me think they had there was, you know, I think that there was something that Yeah, I don't, I don't recall. I don't think.
So now how do they with this you include that there is if I'm not correct? Five separate confessions I believe from Jesse ms Kelly, Am I not correct?
Correct? That is correct? He So the confessions took place after his conviction. After his conviction, so his first confession confession was the June third, nineteen ninety three confession. He also confessed he actually met with his attorney in August and confessed to him in nineteen ninety three, which was never brought up. But then once he got sentenced, he confessed over and over again. And so those confessions are recorded. I put them in my book to show that you know,
he clearly is involved in the case. All the detailed. There's definitely details that were confirmed and confirmations about a whiskey bottle that they drank. They actually found that where he said it was. But he confessed after he was sentenced, which is like February fourth, on the way to jail, he actually confessed to the police. Then he talked in front of his attorney. He said that, and this is
February eighth, he said that he did it again. And then on February seventeenth, he brings the prosecutors over and he confesses again in front of his in front of his attorney. He was begging him not to do it. So he confessed over and over and over again. So it's fairly clear that Jesse, Damien, and Jason were involved in the murders.
Why is it that there is talk about him because of the evidence, him being just to star witness, why he does not testify against the other two, and why his case is separated to explain that?
Yeah, well, I think that because of his situation, they separated the case and he wasn't going to testify against them, and so the cases were were separated.
But there was talk originally that he once he went in for that third confession or the confession where he was advised against it by his attorneys, yet he did still confess and gave even more clarification of details other things that he said he had misled the investigators regarding. So this is a very strong confession with his lawyer strongly advising him not to do that.
Yeah. Yeah, those those confessions there. You can hear his lawyers saying, don't do it, it's against your interests. But miss Kelly keeps saying, I want something done about it. I want something done about it.
So let's get to an important issue, because this is like, as you put in the book, and I admire that you did this, and it's I know it's necessary as well, is that you addressed the supporters, because by this time, you know, Paradise lost as I don't know if I can't remember if it weren't earned it in the Academy Awards, but earned a lot of praise, got a lot of exposure.
You talk about Peter Jackson involved with this, So there is a lot of people who have watched that program been I guess they think dutifully outraged and they've based their conclusions on that. And so in your book Abomination, you actually address those people and some of those things.
So let's address the really one of it seems like they're One of their big big contentions is that that jesse ms Kelly has got the IQ of seventy two or seventy eight or doesn't have his faculties about him and manipulative, manipulative police officers were planting details, important details, not less important details, tell us about his IQ and how you discuss it in the book about Jesse ms Kelly his ability to be able to be interrogated.
I think that was to their benefit to get Jesse miss Kelly's IQ under seven, you know, to make him borderline retarded, and that would discount the confession. The reality is that he had done another IQ test that he scored something closer to an eighty eighty eight eighty four to eighty eight. And you can tell just from the confessions that are reported that you know, he knows what was going on. He's talking about specific things. So I think that was the defense tactic to kind of discount
and get his testimony thrown out. And you know, then there are other things that where they talk about, you know, they supposedly, you know, brow beat him for all these hours. It was an eleven hour grueling interview. But there's no evidence of that either. And I think that that's fairly
clear that that can be rejected. But you know, it's very important to see that say those because, like you said that, the public's understanding of the case was marred by these, you know, documentaries, the three documentaries that came out, and also by Echos's West the Memphis, which came out I think in twenty thirteen or twenty twelve. Well, so you know, they get a whole different view of the
whole court case. That's different from actually reading what actually happened during court, you know, during the court cases.
I mus allass this now while it's on my mind, and we were talking about Peter Jackson and celebrities. We're talking about beloved Hollywood actors and musicians and celebrities. Metallica was in the Paradise Lost soundtrack Eddie Vedder from Pearl Jam.
I believe we have Johnny Depp very very much involved, Peter Jackson from Lord of the Rings, other people, other celebrities involved to the tune, Like you say, ten to twenty million dollars able to bet, to hire the best depellate lawyers, and also more importantly I think, is to hire expert testimony and expert witnesses and their testimony. As everyone can imagine, more money, sometimes better the not sometimes
the better the expert testimony. So I want to ask this question because you have done a book about Crowley, you have commented, and I don't want to get too much into this because we have to go through this story which is very very important in that some of these celebrities have incorporated the philosophy and the symbolism and the I guess, I guess just like somebody that might rock stars have done before adopted the Nazi symbolism and some of the fashion and we'll say so some of
those things where musicians dabble with that for controversial reasons and for just to be bad so that you know your parents want you to get rid of the records. I think that's been telltale if you get to your parents upset. But let's get back to its effect in this case here in terms of were these musicians and directors and these seemingly intelligent people that are certainly not sacrificing babies, maybe probably not even sacrificing anything, probably vegan
for for God's sakes. But what is it a matter of that they that there? They were, They were juped, they were hypnotized. Are they naive? Do they dabble? Do they only understand Crowley a little bit? Do they not understand Crowley? Do they did not do the investigation? What is it about this?
It's hard and that's a great question. When I first when I first investigated this case in twenty twelve, I really didn't know about the involvement of the celebrities. I didn't understand them. I didn't know much about them. The more I researched, the more I found out that they are. Many of the Central Core celebrities have similar outlook Damian Eckles, and I think that there were spiritual traveler fellow travelers.
Johnny Depp himself got a tattoo with Damian Eccles that represents what's called wind over Heaven, and somebody in the cole told me it represents Lucifer, the Lord of the Air. And Peter Jackson also got one of Damian Eckles style tattoos, So a lot of I think that that was really one of the Core celebrities that's really who. They were
very similar in outlook as Echles. Like Margaret Choe, who was a comedian, called called Damian Eckles the heavy metal rock star, you know, like she really admiringly liked him. So I do think that he called him the heavy metal Nelson Mandela, that's what she called Damian eckriyanm. So I do think that some people really are are sympathetic
with him because of their similar ideology. And an interesting point is that Marilyn Manson, who was the like satanic rock star, he was kind of a hidden secret supporter of Damian Eckles, and he and Damian Eckles have hung out together. So there's pictures of them together. There's pictures of Eckels and Depth after the after the release, and Peter Jackson was a huge supporter, even like let Eckels live in his house in New York. So it's very strange, it's very very strange.
Well, you have cited because again I think this is a great example, and I got to I think, don't want to, you know, imagine that's the case in terms of they all believe in human sacrifice. Like I said, I don't even think they would believe in in animal sacrifice, no matter how far or deep they are into this. Now I could be wrong, but you do cite other examples, like again, intelligent, respectable people. You would think Norman Mahler uh supporting a former killer, and you do cite a
couple of cases. So cite a couple of cases like that, where again the celebrities champion these guys because of their supposed literary talents and they were wrong. Right.
One was a famous guy, his name was Hank Abbott, and he was kind of similar to Echols. I put him in the book because he had written a book like Echoes had written a book in jail that was very sympathetic, and it drew all these people to be involved with him. Norman Mailer, it's just a perfect example. He was like with this cause lev kind of killer sympathizer. Abbot gets out, he writes a book called in the Belly of the Beast, comes a nationwide, nationwide bestseller. But
Abbot kind of doesn't change his stripes. He gets out and kills a waiter over an argument over nothing. And at the trial, Mayler was there, Susan Sarandon was there, Aunt Christopher Walking. So these were people who were sympathetic with a guy who had killed twice. There was another case I quote, which is Jack Underwager. It took place in Austria, but he was a known person who had been in jail. He had been in for pimping and
petty crime. He gets in jail for the murder of a prostitute, writes a book, and then the the literati and literati of Austria get him out when he goes out and kills again. So and then I also talk about Mumia Abu Jamal, who you know, all the evidence points to him killing the police officer Faulkner and he's still kind of a hero of the left, and he has against Susan Trandon pops up. But all these other
people are very simple sympathetic towards this person. So I liken them a lot too, Damien Echls in the West Memphis three as it's kind of a sympathetic figures for these celebrities.
Now you've watched everything including Paradise Lost and the Triology trilogy of documentaries and the movie everything, the videos you say that you have posted on your uh on your site uh right that talk about Damien Echles and interviews, So you have everything, every shred and bit of information not only stored in this book, but everything that you have in terms of this entire project in terms of evidence, What is it exactly that people have the biggest problem
with Because it's been depicted that they just liked that these guys were railroaded because they liked black shirts and Metallica and how can they get so far how can they get so far off? So what was it about? Where did they hinge these ideas? I know that they would take the separate ideas, but again, if you could kind of dissect on where the filmmakers either went wrong
or purposely directed them in the wrong direction. Where were the key points where people that are supporters of their innocence were duped?
Well, I think that the you know, the second and there were the trilogy. I think the first Paradise Lost was basically keyed upon echel to finish off with saying Eckels saying that he was the West Memphis Boogeymans. But then the second and third of that franchise they point the finger at John mark Fires and then the third they pointed to Terry Hobbs. So they've got this alternate
possible suspect. And unfortunately, Terry Hobbs was kind of the whipping boy at the latter half of their release, and they convinced all these people that Terry Hobbs was involved, and there's no way he could have been involved. But they had all this stuff come out about Terry Hobbs not saying they've seen the kids laugh. They had these two convicted criminals rapists say that Terry Hobbs had a
family secret, and I think that that was captivating. I think that there is a narrative there that sympathetic people are attracted to, which is, you know this poor people getting railroaded by the system. And it didn't help that he was from the South. So all these Southern attorneys and everything were seen in that kind of frame of you know, it's a red state and there are a bunch of hillbillies bill Billy Lawier's. I didn't find any of that. I thought that they were people in a
difficult situation doing the best they could. But I think that that narrative and the other thing that's interesting is that I think that the PR really worked. I think that if you have Johnny DApp and all these other people saying that they're innocent, you know, it's kind of a bullhorn celebrity. For whatever it's worth, people contend to believe celebrities. So all these people that came out, they just assumed that that was the story and it couldn't
be farther from the truth. But you know, I think that that's what the potency of this of this case and how it got twisted in the minds of the public is really the celebrities in the PR. It was very effective. They have a very skilled PR guy named Surry Lonie Suri out of New York, And you know, it begs the question why does somebody whose innocent need a PR person? But yeah, I think that, you know, there there was a lot, there was a very strong
PR element in this whole case. And I do mention that briefly in my book.
How did the celebrities in Hollywood get involved in the first place? There was? Who was the contact and what was it exactly about that? How they contacted somebody in Hollywood that first person, sympathetic person. How was it they convinced him? What is it that they said? How did that come?
That's a great question. You know, Echoles himself when he was in jail, he has a wife, he got married, and she seemed to be the intermediary between Echos and all these celebrities, and the celebrities got involved in kind of a trickle. I was my understanding. At least. What they say is that Johnny Depp called her and said you need help. So a lot of these people, but it seems like they all kind of banded together through
their own network and to help him out. So it's not there's no real overt thing of these celebrities, but they held all of these banned meetings and raised tons of money. Like you said, it's ten to twenty million dollars. It's an incredible sum of money that was put to use to get these guys out of jail. But I don't think that there was really an over been steven
of all these people at one point coming together. I think it was kind of a trickle like Henry Rollins got involved, and that got somebody else involved, and then Johnny Deupp got involved in By twenty five or twenty oh eight, there's just this huge horde of celebrities involved in the West Memphis three case.
I tend to think, and I mentioned this to you earlier in the day, that I think that people in general, because they have never experienced a trial, because they've probably not read I can guaranteed not read entire transcripts, they wouldn't get through it. And they're used to seeing films and documentaries and news clips, so incomplete documentaries with a certain focus. Again, Making of a Murderer is a good
example information coming from the defense. So do you think there might be a bias potentially and just the power of film versus in terms of the ability to outrage compared to a book, A book seems to be more reasonable.
Do you think this is just a general ignorance and naivety about the law itself, which leads to a guy like Johnny Depp, who probably wasn't outsider once upon a time, he did have aspirations of being a musician, thinking geez, I can relate, maybe not thinking about it too much, but saying I can relate to being an outsider and just believing what he wanted to believe, taking pieces out of it that supported his idea of his own experiences.
Do you think it's more about that otherwise respectable people.
Yeah, I'll give you two answers because I'll break it into what I think about people's perceptions and then Johnny Depp. But I think at first people's perceptions. I think it's the medium is the message. I do think that when people watch film, they're not getting the full time line event. They're seeing visual things and they're very manipulative. A lot of these documentaries do not properly document the case. They're
very specific and biased. And you know, I think that the interest of HBO in this case was to make money. That's why they did, you know, made a franchise out of it. The second and third and they had to have a theme and in each additional film that would throw people in. So what do they do. They blame somebody else, They blame it on biers, they blame it on offs. It gets people to creates friction and creates controversy.
So I think that, you know, that's really I think that the whole those videos and those paradise flows are really were the core reason why they got out. I really do. I think that propaganda was it. So I do think that, like you said, a book is a more measured means of relating information. I think that people generally won't go through any case and read those documents. I think that that's where that's why so many people
have ignorant conclusions regarding the West Memphis three case. As far as Johnny Depp is concerned, I've done some research on Johnny Depp recently, and I think he's a fellow traveler just like Eccheles. I think they're both into magic. I believe that they're into the occult. And I think that Depp has shown in his films and in what he said in his personal life that that's what he's into. He's into what Echoes is. That's why you know, Eccles
himself called Johnny Depp's brother. He believes Johnny Depp is like his brother. And you can see these videos of Eccles and depth at my YouTube side of Cold Investigations. I have all these videos of Eccles actually using deception of upon journalists who don't know the facts of the case, so they really don't respond. He's been on major shows where he's just straightly bald faced line. Particularly the one show was a CNN with and the host just asked
him all these questions and Eckles. Eckles basically said that he had never been in a He's never been and died in crime for anything, when the book and all the evidence shows that he had been in under police he had been arrested one year before the murders. You know, so there's tons of information about it. But like going back to your question, I do think that you know what people watch, is it? I think that that the
videos are can be deception, deception through a mission. You know, it's not that they don't include all the information, so people think they've got the full gist of the case.
Now this isn't evidence in it itself, but you provide the evidence that there that he had this interest in in Satanism and Alistair Crowley and other you know founders of this, Anton Lavay. So he really was a serious Satanist. And with that you provide the information that that he knew of Crowley's talk of sacrifice, and there was very good indication that he was dabbling in that area of magic and spells and witchcraft and sacrifice. There was all.
I wouldn't that he talked about human sacrifice as well.
Absolutely, I wouldn't. I wouldn't call it dabbling. I still think that he's a very very serious occultist and magician. And when I read the book, like I had already read Croley and then I wrote wrote read Damien Eckles's Life after Death when he talks about the HGA Ritual, the Holy Guardian Angel Ritual, something specific to Alistair Crowley. When Alister Curley meant, I fell out of my chair. I literally was in shock that he knew the HGA ritual,
which is Crowley's attempt to communicate with things. That's really what it is. So you know, he talks about going through the HGA prayer ritual three times today in his book. It's it's really remarkable and it indicates to me that Echles is not a dabbler. He right now he has he's kind of propselytizing magic. He wants to create a magical revolution, and he always says, I want to make the world a more magical place. Give magic, you know, to be people that will appreciate and change their lives.
So I think that he is a true believer. In his Twitter feeds and his social media indicates that.
Yeah, it's interesting that that would come up in the trial, that he would be blamed for that he would downplay and say that was a white witchcraft and he really did it was. It's incredible when you see Jason Baldwin and Jesse Muskelly, but very much Jason Baldwin and Damian Eccles, how young these They look like kids, and they did act like kids as well. They look very very innocent, and again that's movie making as well. But you it's
it's interesting that someone would continue with this magic. Again, again, if it was white magic, you think that when he was released, he would pretend he was white magic, go that route. Instead, he's at least or more so exploring the darker element and the Crowley elements of Satanism, isn't he to this day o.
Question, I think that you hit the nail right on the head of that statement, because I remarked the same thing. I would think that once he got out of jail, he would go back to his pseudo Buddhism, that he's interested in, the Shinto kind of Buddhism. But instead he goes right back into this magical He's still promoting it, he's practicing it. He's creating sigils and pictures in his
art that are full of symbology. He actually made some drawing that was made of his blood and spit, blood, blood and saliva, you know, real kind of bodily fluid magical stuff. And then I saw him with this character by the name of Genesis p Orige, who really started his own kind of Crowley cult that was supposed to be the you know, was supposed to follow on after the work of Croley called the Croley's OTL, but his
is called Topi. The it's about psychic youth, basically temple of psychic Youth that kind of carried on Crowley's Crowley's Torch for example. And Eckles is hanging out with him. He's in a movie with him called I R O. If you want to see something very creepy, you can go to my YouTube side of a Cold Cold Investigations and see them together talking about how New York is a dangerous place and people could get killed. So it's really creepy.
What it was interesting, uh, is when Damian eccles takes the stand and you document what exactly did he what did he bring to that at that trial with his testimony on on on the stand. It's unusual to have a killer take the stand, so they must have thought that there was nothing else to lose by having him on there. So how did he conduct himself? What did what did the world learn from seeing him up on that stand?
I think they saw him kind of dissemble, you know. They asked him questions about Crowley, They asked him about the pentagram on his chest. They asked him about the knives that he used to have. Now all the knives disappeared. One was found in the lake behind the trailer park where they live, where Jason Baldwin lived. But he really, uh, you know, he really tried to kind of dissemble the at least that's the way I interpreted about a lot
of his his interests. You know, Davis, the prosecutor says, you know, you know, he asked him about his earlier statements that he had made right there on May seventh. He asked him about who would feel good about killing eight year olds? Is that part of your common sense philosophy?
And then Echo says, I figured they must have if they did it, So it kind of showed that he was really cavalier about you know, a lot of the three eight year olds deaths, and you know, it showed that he he had the out look if some of you as a killer.
At least in my opinion, What is it about Jesse mus Kelly in these supporters' minds besides the IQ, what was it that made it conclusive in their minds that there's just no way that Damian Eckles and Jason Baldwin and Jesse ms Kelly despite the confessions, because I'm sure they know that there are these confessions, they know of the trial and the jury's conclusions.
Well, not everybody knows that they nobody, not everybody knows about the post conviction confessions. The pr team and Echols himself has done a good job of focusing on the one confession. So a lot of people don't know the total fact of the case. So I think that that's why miss Kelly can be thrown out. He was seen as incompetent and unintelligent, and that the fourteen post so
called fourteen hour confession was bogus. And so when they believe those facts that really for these these statements that really aren't true, that's why they can throw Miskelly out and his initial first confession. You'd be surprised how many conversations I have with people who are West Memphis three supporters, and I've had many, many, many many conversations with them. How many only they know that there was one confession, that there was no post conviction confessions.
What is their rationale for having first buyers and then now hobbs in their and their.
I think in their eyesights, I think it points away from them and they actually can win the PR battle. They can win the PR public PR battle. And that was really kind of the unusual element of this case is that they really the West Memphis three three one the public battle. Most people believe that they were innocent
for one reason. Und that's how they raised ten or twenty mo dollars So if you can tell the public that it was the suspicious stepfather, whether it's the stepfather Buyers or the stepfather Hobbs, you win the pr battle, not in court, but that pr battle can be leveraged with money to win in court. And that's why I think that that was their approach.
Now, the dispute the satanic motive, So what would be the motive for either one of those stepfathers to do it.
They've had a whole series of different things. One is rage killing. One is the most recent, which is laughable, is that Hobbs, one of his friends, and two other kids were engaged. They get this. They were engaged in some homosexual party in the woods and the three kids came upon them and then the all three of them killed the three kids. That's what the supporters have actually posited as what happened. So you know, that's that's kind of that's the that's their kind of, uh flame rationale
really for the killings. That doesn't hold any water. And the other reality about Hobbes is that he was seen the whole night of the disappearance. He was walking around, he was with his wife, he was with us, He had seen Buyers, he was walking around in the woods. Nobody saw him wet. You had to be in that ditch with the the victims. You had to have gotten wet to cover up the current crime. And who was seen wet and money? Damien Eckles was seen wet in money by the truck wash that was over by the
freeway about one hundred yards away from the mercy. He was seen by the whole Hollingsworth family. And people like to discount that, But why would a whole family with a wife and kids and husbands lie about seeing Eccles and possibly either Jason Baldwin or Eccles's girlfriend at the time, who was named Dominique Cheer.
The the the fact of that Damien Eckles mentions that urine in the boy's mouths and that the pathologist finds evidence of urine in their stomachs later. Is that brought up at trial? Is that important or is that just important in your in your mind?
It's important for me in my mind. It was not to my knowledge brought up at trial, but I thought that the it was. It was something that I learned from There's been a lot of writers about the West Memphis. Three. One was Blink on Crime, another's Trench Reynolds. But it was something I learned from Blink on Crime, and I
think that doubt was the truth. She had looked through all of the court records as well, and I used, you know, some of her analyzes in my book, and I quoted her at my on my intro to the book as somebody I reference. So there's been a lot of other writers who you know, I wasn't alone. I wasn't the first one to really write about the case. I was the first one to kind of put together the occult aspect and elements of the case.
Now you say you have I know you have supporters, and there they have their supporters. Are there any supporters that take their you know, dedication to Satan so seriously that they are angered at you? Is it is this like scientology tell us.
A little bit about YEA, Well, that's a that's an amazing statement by you, because I think that supporters of Damien Eckles are basically as fevered and aggressive as scientologists. Blint Trench Reynolds has written a lot about Eccles and he calls echos followers eccles ologists play on scientologists, and he has actually had some very serious ramifications from speaking out against Eccles. He's he actually had somebody leave a bag full of experiment on his porch. He has been
harassed online, and I've been harassed online as well. And I've actually, if you loo look at my book on Amazon, I've just been basically gangstalk by Echo supporters, telling lies and just trying to downplay my book and give me one star. So there has been some ramplications from from complaining against Echoes. And you know, he's a member of the OTO, He's an admitted member. One of the strange elements of the case was the supporters who kind of
came up out of the middle of nowhere. There was a group of them that came out of la that are seen in some of the in some of the Paradise Lost trilogy talking with Echoes, and nobody really knows why they're supporters. Are they really have a secret hidden agenda? And one of the guys from Court TV asks one of these kind of fevered supporters, are you a member of a cult? You know, he actually came out and said are you a member of a cult? Which I
thought was a very important question. I think the guy dodged it.
Now, the your investigation into Alistair Crowley of course's instrumental in this for our audience, and in the book you do this as well. But I'd like you to tell us specifically why you think that Damien eckles and this crime itself demonstrates a again what we know the difference between what the FBI would call a ritualistic satanic murder. But tell us why you think this is can be
described as having those satanic elements. Tell us again, in summary, all the things that you thought about the three murders of these young boys added up to a satanic crime.
So they were tied, like we talked about earlier, they were tied in what was dornus chord magic with different knots, and in chord magic, different knots mean different things. So and they were tied in an unusual fashion which was very ritualistic. Also that there was wax that was found there from a candle. It was a very bloody scene that took place at a full moon. And also what I didn't know when I first wrote the book is there's something about drowning, about ritual sacrifice and water. And
the boys were two of the boys were drowned. Also, the fact that one of the genitols was removed is consistent from what I've heard from a really intense ritual that takes place at the highest level of Satanism, involving blood. And you know, one of the boys, when his generaliss were removed, he lost all his blood, and that blood was there. You can see it in the court documents that the blood is all over the side of the bank where this took place. A luminol was evidence of
all this blood. So I do think, you know, there could have been other people at that site when those boys were killed, which is a scary thought. But one of the other investigators, Jerry Driver, one of the early people who knew Echals, thought that there were other people there. At the night of the killing. There was a man who went to a low like literally right across the way from the killing to a bo Jangles restaurant, and he was covered in mud and blood. He sat in
the bathroom there for the whole night. So there's indications that ritual, definite ritual elements are involved in this case. And Accos himself said that, you know, he liked he wants the complete book of witchcraft and I show him the book that his mother had driven him around the bookstores to help find him books and U. So I do think that there was there was a ritually involved murder. I do think that.
It's interesting to you to talk they talk about. I think Jason Baldwin said he got alcohol from Damien's mother. I believe went and got him some whiskey and uh oh yeah. There was also talk about his girlfriend who changed her name to Domini for again for these kinds of reasons, and their family and its connection to at least they're dabbling in vamporism.
Right, they're dabbling in blood drinking, just like echos Is. They write about vamporism and for a magazine. And you know, she casually said when she was asked that, you know, oh yeah, we drink blood. Mom drinks blood. Everybody drinks blood. So that was very common. And you know, there's evidence and elements within eccles family that his parents are involved in different types of witchcraft, you know, and they talked about that in West Memphis. In West Memphis, there was
rumors about that. And strangely, the same year that Eccles was arrested, there was a murder that his mother and sister were involved in during a bonfire on the shore of the Mississippi River right there on the kind of eastern part of West Memphis. And so there's some very sketchy, very suspicious stuff. There was the death of somebody who's actually living with Eccles's mom.
Interesting and also the community itself. An expert had come in in ninety two and said that there was you know, incredible satanic activity and that sort of a warning of this unusual activity in the area.
Absolutely, I mean I think that there was all kinds of people coming in and talking. The police had taken a ton of, you know, statements from other people. They talked about, like I talked earlier, these rituals at Stonehenge, and that there were other people involved in that. There was somebody who they never found who was supposedly the head of the whole colts, and you know, they talked about you know, rapes that had taken place at Stonehenge.
There was all types of dog carcasses, and nobody could really explain it. There just was a sense of fear. And what happens after these three guys are arrested. There's no more killings, no more child killings that ever happened in West Memphis.
Yeah. Interesting, this is an incredible book upon it Nation. I could talk to you for another hour and a half, but I'm going to have to let you go. But I wanted to let people know the work that you've done before. So tell us a little of the titles of the books that you have before, and also give us all the information where people might be able to contact you and find out about your other work, and tell us about the ed Opferman Report that you're involved
with as well. So give us a little bit of a plugs for yourself and also just where people might find out about your work and how they might be able to contact you for further interested.
Say thanks, Dan. I wrote Profit of Evil, which is about Alister Croley. That was my first book, and then I wrote Abomination, and I just finished a new book called Children of the Beasts, which is about Crowley's followers, and that should be available the next week or two. You can find me on Facebook. I have a ton of information about echos on Facebook and at a cult investigation that YouTube, and I also have a website which
is a cult investigation dot com. You can buy books there and you can reach me on any social media Twitter, an like that. And I'm also involved as a producer with the Ed Auperman Report, and he has some excellent interviews with people involved in the West Memphis three case, people, local people. One has had something like two hundred, two
hundred and fifty thousand listens. It's pretty amazing. So if you are wanting to get some more information about the West Memphis three from a great source, check out the Ed Auperman Report.
Yeah, it's a great show. I was just interviewed by Ed last week and I had a great time as a great interviewer and has a really fine program. I've went through the archives and discovered your program about this book of bonomation and the West Memphis three and just a fascinating case and a fascinating book. And I want to thank you very much William for coming on and sharing it with us this evening.
Thank you very much, Dan, thank you so much, Thank you so much for having you all. My went fast, Thanks again.
Thank you, good night.
All right, take care tonight.
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