A NEED TO KILL-Mark Pettit

two young boys in Nebraska. In the spirit of Truman Capodi's In Cold Blood, Pettit delves into the Jubert case to tell the dramatic story from all angles as a non fiction novel. In a series of exclusive face to face interviews with Pettitt, Jubert admits to a string of violent crimes and another killing that sends investigators into a frenzy, ending with Jubert's being convicted for a third murder and

ultimately executed in Nebraska's electric chair. Now, Pettitt uncovers shocking new evidence from Jubert's prison records proving the killer was fantasizing about committing more violent crimes. Never before seen death row drawings made by Jubert while he waited to be executed once again send a chill through Nebraska and those touched by Juwbert's horrific crimes. In the update version of his book, Pettitt opens his investigative files to the public,

sharing never before seen evidence. Pettitt reveals aspects of Jubbert's personality from exclusive interviews and details from the death row discussions that have never been shared publicly. Criminal profiler Keith Howard, who has who has investigated more than one thousand crimes, weighs in with a dramatic assessment of the death row drawings, calling Jubert a sexual sadist, pedophile, and organized killer. Howard's

full assessment of Jubert is included in the book. Pettitt is a twenty five year veteran journalist, a former anchor at CNN Pettitt also worked as an anchor and investigative reporter at w XIA TV NBC in Atlanta and KMTV three cb S in Omaha. The book that we're featuring this evening is a Need to Kill the Death Row Drawings with my special guest, journalist and author, Mark Pettit. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Mark Pettit.

I tried several times to go through his attorney to see if he would do an interview, and it was no, no, no, And so finally I decided to write to John Jubert directly, and I used a self addressed envelope with the TV station's address, and I sent him a letter that you can read in the book, and to my surprise, he wrote back, and it was the beginning of a conversation that lasted over a year. I talked to Jubert seven times on death Row, and you'll see how it unfolded.

But during these interviews on death Row. I think Jubert came to trust me and he started telling me how this all happened, and he confessed to a string of crimes, including a third murder in Portland, Maine. So when the book came out, the original version came out in nineteen eighty eight, and there were only five thousand copies that sold out in two weeks. I was just blown away.

And then the book went national as a paperback. And there was one thing that I had not reported in the earlier versions of the book, and that was that John Jubert told me during one of our last interviews that he was still fantasizing about killing more children, and he was drawing out his fantasy. And I said, John, you're on death row, you're going to be executed, and you're still fantasizing about killing kids. And he said, yeah,

I don't know what's wrong with me. But they confiscated two of the drawings from me recently, and I said, so the prison has these drawings and he said yes, And I said, would you let me get those drawings and have them analyzed by a mental health professional. So, as you'll see in the book, Dan, and you've read the book, so you know he took the pad. There's

a yellow pad that I was taking notes on. Gilbert wrote a letter to the warden of the prisoner on that day and said, I would like you to give these drawings to Mark Pettitt so that he could have them analyzed by a mental health professional. So the prison refused and would not release the drawings. They felt it would jeopardize his appeals. Finally, Jubert was executed in nineteen ninety six. And it always bothered me that I knew

about those drawings but had not seen them. So with the thirtieth anniversary of the crimes coming up in twenty thirteen, I reapproached the prison through a Freedom of Information Act request, asking them if they had the drawings, and they called me back two days later and said we found them. And I was like, you have the drawings and they were yet, yes, we have them, and I said can you describe them to me? And they said they're too disturbing, and I said these need to be made public, and

the prison system refused. And I thought about it and thought about it, and the prosecutor in Nebraska, Lee Holokov, said, you should have those drawings. You should sue Mark, you should sue the prison system to have them released. And that's what I did. And initially we won the court decision to have the drawings released, and so we were days away from having the drawings made public so I

could have them analyzed. And the then Nebraska Attorney General decided to appeal and the case was taken by the Supreme Court of Nebraska and we ended up losing the court case, and so the drawings were not going to be made public. But then Dan, as you know, sometimes fate has a way of intervening in a case like this. And I got a call late on a Saturday night and I answered, and he said, is this Mark Pettitt And I said yes, it is the man that wrote

the book about John Jubert. And initially I thought it was a joke, one of my friends calling me, and I said, yes, it is the one that's trying to get those drawings released and they won't let them out. And I said yes, he said, I have the drawings and I'm going to give them to you. And it just gave me cold chills, and it gives me cold

chillbumps now hearing that. So, as it turns out, a confidential source came forward and made the drawings available to me, and that's why it was necessary for me to write the sixth version and the final version of A Need to Kill the Death Row drawings.

brewing in John Jebbert's head at six years old. He felt that the babysitter and her mother were trying to keep him away from seeing his father. So he told me that he fantasized about killing the babysitter, and he described it as a light switch, that he could turn off the switch and she would be gone. So that's when it started. He started having fantasies about murder at

six years old. It grew to cannibalism. And it's extremely hard to believe until you flash forward thirty years and read the assessment from Keith Howard, the criminal profiler, it starts to all make sense. So Jubert's crimes progress. He stabs a girl in the back with a pencil, he slashes a boy's throat, he stabs a young woman on her way to college in the evening, and then that progressed into the murder of Ricky Stepson, the young boy

in Portland, Maine who was murdered. What I've learned since then is that for a person like John Jebert, who is now classified as a sexual sadist, an organized defender, and a pedophile, the fantasy is never as good as the crime itself. So they continue to commit violent crimes in hopes that it will become the fantasy that they have in their heads. And according to the profiler, Keith Howard,

that never happens. So they continue to commit violent crimes and murders in search of the perfect crime, if you will, that will never happen. So that's how it started. Dan. It was, you know, as you said, a young boy in Massachusetts who moved to Portland. His mother was harsh, but there was no abuse that I know of. That's the first question I'm asked. Was he abused? And there is no evidence that John Jubert was abused sexually or otherwise.

John Jewbert's life. So you talk about some of his early life, like you said about the babysitter, but there were other incidents that seemed to contribute to this, again, the anger, and that's an understatement that we see later on in his murderous behavior.

affected Hubert deeply because he liked his roommate. He thought they were good friends. And I think that was a triggering event, as you mentioned, that caused him to start hunting more victims and ultimately killing more victims. And during this time, he was a Scout leader in Nebraska, and that's just so hard to believe that on the evening of one of the murders, he was there with the scout troop speaking them to them that night, telling them

not to be afraid of the killer. It's just unbelievable.

me up, John. So this really triggered in Gilbert both a fear and an excitement that he was like, no, no, I don't want to do this, and he ends up tying up the little boy. And the sheriff who searched for Gilbert was a great man by the name of Pat Thomas. He told me that he firmed believed that that young boy would have been the next child killed because Jubert could not control himself once he got into that situation where the boy was bound and in fear.

And we'll talk more about that in a minute, Dan, of what this was all about for Gibert was eliciting fear from these kids in such a way that they knew they were going to be killed, and he wanted them to watch him. And that's what's so important about these drawings, the death row drawings that we'll talk about, I'm sure in depth. I was very interested in what some of the things meant in the drawings, and I'll tell you more about that as we get into it.

morning that he was kidnapped and murdered. He was off to deliver newspapers. So his mother saw him off in the driveway, and this gives me chills as well. But Judy was saying goodbye to her relatives who had been staying with them that night, and so she was saying goodbye to them as Danny Joe was peddling off on his bicycle, and she said that there was an overwhelming feeling that came over her that said, stop him, don't

let him go. And in the book she tells me, don't be silly, Judy, don't be silly, and that was the mother's intuition kicking in. So Danny Joe is on his paper route and he's parked his bike against a chain lick sense, and he's down on his knees rolling up the newspapers when suddenly he's approached by John Jibbert and he stands up and he starts to walk, and that's when Gilbert pulls the knife and says, come with me. And I think Danny Joe was so shocked he didn't

know what to do. But there's also a theory that he had met Gibert before that Gilbert may have approached him weeks or days earlier, and so there might have been some comfort and that he knew John Gibbert in some way, and that's why he began to walk with him. But Gilbert places his hand over his shoulder, pulls the

knife and says, come with me. And that's when he takes into the car, wraps his mouth, and Duck Hate ties him up and puts him in the trunk of the car and drives him to the place where Danny Joe would be murdered. And that's off a dirt road near Omaha, Nebraska. But Danny's family told me and the father, Lynn Everly, said, I'll never understand why Danny Joe didn't fight back. He said, we used to wrestle. He was strong. I don't know why he didn't fight back. And that's

one thing I've learned from investigators too. If you're a parent and you're talking to your children about these type things, never go with the killer. Always fight back, scream, kick, whatever it takes, because law enforcement will tell you the second you get in the car you are that much closer to being killed. You're not going to get away with this. They're taking you somewhere that you're not coming

back from. So that's what happened to Danny Joe. Everley kidnapped him, tied him up, took him to the remote area, and stabbed. And it's just so sad that both boys had begged Jubert not to kill them, to take them to the hospital. And I said, John, why didn't you just take him to the hospital, And he said, I knew it was too late, and that's when he slashed Danny Joe's throat, stabbed repeatedly. And this is really bizarre and shocking too. He bit the boy's body on near

his thighs. And I asked the investigators and the profile a what that meant, and it was all about control and sexual sadism and pedophilia. That there's no evidence that the boys were sexually assaulted or raped, but there is evidence that if a child is five years younger than the perpetrator, it is considered pedophilia. So that's what happened to Danny Joe. Everley, you talk.

you introduce the Omaha FBI. John Evans tell us about this little about again the response by the family and they find out because you do talk about the entire experience, even identification at the morgue before we talk about this task force that's assembled.

And then once they get to the morgue, when you hear the story, it's so heartbreaking of how they have to go in and they're debating what kind of casket to get and part of them wants to be frugal, they don't have a lot of money. The second part they want to you know, pay homage and treat Dandy

Joe with the respect that he deserves. So you relive that you experienced that in the book, and that's firsthand from the family, exactly what they told me, down to the younger brother bringing a pair of white tube socks that he that he took from Danny Joe's bedroom and said, please bury Dandy Joe in the sock. They were his favorites. So you really get to learn about these families. You get to understand what these little boys were like. But I also wanted you to understand what was going through

the minds of the law enforcement from Pat Thomas. If you ever could pick a sheriff from Central Casting, it was him. It reminds me of Beautifully Pusser from the movies, walking tall, just a big, burly guy. Everything you would think about in a sheriff, and just what he was going through and what Jim Sanderson, who was the young lieutenant on the task force, who had a daughter of his own, and these guys were trying to find this killer.

It went on for one hundred and eighteen days until to the next murder happened, and the profilers had been telling them, you better catch him. You've got to get him within ninety to one hundred days or he's going to kill again. So imagine the fear and the anxiety in the community and the law enforcement officers who know that the time is ticking, that they've got to find

this killer, and the pressure they were under. I tried to tell that story and I hope it came through in the book of what these law enforcement officers were going through and ultimately the great work that they did to catch John Jubert.

be a victim too. So you also talk about bringing in Robert K. Wrestler, the famous profiler and FBI pioneer of criminal profiling, to also look at these cases, or look at this case because there is a similarity with another infamous case, the Johnny Gosh newspaper boy, and because there's some similarities. So tell us about Robert K. Wrestler and this before we talk about the task force and the conflict that they have at the task force that at least doesn't send this case onto a wild goose

chase as you did. Right, So let's talk about the efforts by the FBI and why the FBI is involved when they don't really have to be. So explain all of that to us.

But Bob Wrestler, and he since passed, was considered the godfather of criminal profilings, and I talked to Bob on multiple occasions about this, but he was sent to Omaha days within a couple of days, I believe, of the

first murder. And it's amazing what they can tell from the crime scene itself, from the victim, and how things have progressed Dan from when Bob Wrestler was on this case to what Keith Howard, who trained under Bob Wrestler ironically, or how the science has progressed to today, how much more they know from what a killer is doing. But Bob Wrestler was quickly able to say that this was going to be a young loner, most likely blue collar, not very well educated, that he was not This was

a hurried crime. And as I've mentioned, for these people like John Jubert who are classified as an organized defender, they start out sloppy and the crimes get more sophisticated and they get less sloppy. So Bob Wrestler was able to come in quickly put together a profile of who they thought this killer was, and then they started literally

rounding up potential suspects on a pervert squad. So they were pulling in all these people and who had previously been arrested or suspected of crimes, and on a couple of occasions almost charged the wrong person in the case. Once there was there was a pebble found in one of the boys' mouths, and they thought, well, this is what the the autopsy revealed. So they went down this whole rabbit hole of trying to find this pebble and

where it came from. And it turned out that the medical examiner had made a mistake and transposed copy from one case to another, and the pebble was not found in one of the boy's mouth. So again, how frustrating that can be for the or had to be for the law enforcement who are going down this path. They're investigating, they're interviewing all these people. They get a guy that they think is the right guy, it's not. They get evidence that they think is real and it's not, and

you're back to square one. So that's what happened. And Bob Wrestler, you know, did his best, and I think if you read his assessment in a lot of ways, he was right. And that was literally a science to be able to come in and put together a criminal profile and talk about who the suspect was.

he's molested a couple young boys. So tell us how they think he's a good prime suspect and how they don't come to arrest him for this.

get charge him. And it was Jim Sanderson, the lieutenant, who had a young daughter of his own at the time, said this is not the right guy, this is not him. We're down the wrong path. And they literally went around the room and voted, and it was so close, and the vote came up not to charge Alvin Terry the suspect. And like you said, that could have been a whole different book. And I know you've interviewed my friend and

fellow author John Ferrick with his book Bloody Lives. How it could go so so wrong with evidence that's not real or evidence that's planted. And you can imagine the pressure that's on these law enforcement officers to find someone in this case that things like that happened. So that did not happen in this case, but investigators were led. As I said, it was one hundred and eighteen days

that Jebert led them on this killing spree. And the second boy, Christopher Walden, was killed in early December of the nineteen eighty three, and again just a tragic story. If you want me to go ahead and talk about what happened with Christopher, I'd be happy to do that.

can Danny Joe come out and play? So not only had they just gone through this horror of the murder and then the funeral, but for someone so callous to call and ask if the dead boy can come out and play? I just I couldn't believe it and was so, you know, thankful that the family told me that story, because that's a hurt on a hurt that you would never know unless they could tell it themselves.

be dressed. And Christopher was coming into an age where he wanted to look good for the little girls in the classroom, and he didn't want to get his hair messed up, and so his mom said, no, you've got to put that stocking cap on, and so he did begrudgingly. And he is walking to school and John Jebert their paths cross. Jubert is out that morning and he is searching for another victim. This is December second, as I mentioned, nineteen eighty three, and he sees Christopher Walden walking on

the sidewalk in the snow. There's no one else around him. So Gilbert pulls the car ahead and gets out with his knife and approaches Christopher Walden just like he did Danny Joe Everley. Pulls the knife and tells him to get in the car. So Christopher Walden does as he's told, and this time he's in the front seat, on the passenger side, down on the floorboard, and he's begging Jubert

to let him go, to not hurt him. And Gibert told me that for a second he thought about it, He thought about letting Christopher go and just letting him be on his way, and he decided no, it was too late, that he would surely tell the police he would be able to identify him. So he takes Christopher Walden to another remote area and again Dan, imagine it's freezing cold, there's snow on the ground. And he arches Christopher Walden into this snowy area and makes him take

off his clothing. And this is significant. He made these boys strip down to their underwear. He did not make them take off their underwear. But it's still considered pedophilia and sexual sadism, according to the profiler Keith Howard. So, Danny Joe, I mean, Christopher Walden is in the woods and begging for his life, and Jebert stabs him, and you know, the little boys down and he's stabbing him

and slashing him. And it's so sad that when you see the photographs, and I've seen the photographs of the crime scene, his little backpack, his notepad, and in the pocket of Christopher Walden, the medical examiner found ten cents and it was money that the boy was going to use to buy extra milk at school. So those are the kind of details that I wanted people to understand

for several reasons. To understand the level of investigative work I had done to get beneath these crimes and find out what really happened, but also to humanize these children so that people would understand that this is just like your family. It's just like your child, and something horrific could happen like this. So that's what happened with Christopher Walden and his body was found two days later by hunters who were out hunting, and they found Christopher's body in the woods.

there is Pat Thomas. He's now twice had to break this horrible news to family members, and he starts to take this very personally, and he begins to try to talk to the killer from the through the media. And there's a chilling interview that I was able to obtain where Sheriff Thomas is talking to the media to a reporter and instead of looking directly into the camera, he looks to the left and says, if you're out there, turn yourself in to either a clergy person or to

me and start picking on someone your own size. So he was trying, and this is a police technique to get the killer to move away from children, possibly to an adult where he or she might make a mistake. That's what happened. Gubert, I believe, was out looking for more victims the morning that he ran into Barbara Weaver at the preschool where he was ultimately caught. That Sheriff

Thomas has felt the pain of these parents. He knows the pressure that his men on the task force and men and women are under, and he's trying to connect with the killer directly. If you are a man, pick on someone your own size. And Gilbert was watching and he told me, oh, yeah, I was watching. I wanted

to see what the police were doing. So again, Dan, this is so interesting to be able to talk to the law enforcement, talk to the parents, and then talk to the killer, because it's literally a three hundred and sixty degree view of what had happened during this timeframe. And I wanted to mention people asking me all the time, how did you come up with the name of the book, A Need to Kill? So I was interviewing Gilbert's and during one of our interviews on death Row, and I said, John,

you didn't know these boys. You had no idea who they were. How could you do this to them? And he said, Mark, for as long as I can tell you, I've just had a need to kill. And the hair stood up on my arms in the back of my neck. I just couldn't believe he said that. And so to me, that was naturally the title of the book. And so that's how the book has progressed over the years. This is the sixth edition, so it was a need to kill, a need to kill, Final Justice, a need to kill.

The death Row drawings is the final version and it's only available at Amazon dot com. But I hope that your listeners who are interested will read this book so that they can not only get into the mind of this killer, but understand what these families went through, what these law enforcement officers went through, and what was a horrific time in the heartland.

books where hypnosis is used. But this is one of the most incredible parts of this incredible book is the effort, the incredible effort with Bill Kinney special agent doctor Richard Garver to hypnotize these women to gain valuable information. But we're going to use this as an opportunity to stop right now to talk about our sponsors before we get back to Mark Pettit talking about a need to kill. Are you hiring? Do you know where to post your job to find the best candidates? Posting your job in

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blue Apron dot com slash murder. You will love how good it feels and taste to create incredible home cook meals with blue Apron. So don't wait, that's blue Apron dot com slash murder. Blue Apron a better way to cook. When we last left off Mark, we were talking about the incredible effort that was undertaken by Bill Kinney and doctor Richard Garver to hypnotize these two witnesses that in retrospect thought that they saw something that day. Tell us a little bit about this incredible effort.

So it's amazing to see these women who are struggling to remember and to bring back any ideas or any evidence, and how the hypnosis I believe really worked in a couple of cases that the women were able to bring out certain elements a piece of a tag number, a holster where the knife was on Jubert's belt, to a sign that was on the street corner that would ultimately place Jubert at the scene of the crime through the hypnosis.

So both women I think were traumatized a by not being able to remember and be by going through the process of being hypnotized that they were traumatized afterwards. But it's a good thing that they both came forward because they both helped bring out pieces that ultimately helped law enforcement solve this twisted puzzle.

the hypnosis. So partial tag number, partial description of Jubert that he'd had a knife in a sheath. So those were all critical pieces of evidence that helped police once they tracked Jubert down and found those exact pieces of evidence from his car and from his personal belongings.

police would capture the killer. And that morning she said that she said a special prayer and she said, God, I don't know how I can help, but if there is a way, please use me to help. And this really was amazing as well. She showed me in her wallet a quote that she carried in her purse and it was no enemy can come so near that God isn't mirror. So that morning she had prayed with her children, and Barbara was a school teacher at Aldersgate Methodist Church.

So Barbara is there with the children that morning, and she's aware of the crimes. Of course, as I said, they've been praying about it. And that morning a young man pulls up in the driveway of the church and she sees him get out of the car and it's John Jebert. And I asked John during one of the interviews. I said, what was happening John, And he said, I was desperate for money. I was going to rob the

lady at the church. But I really believe he was out looking for additional victims because I've mentioned and as the profiler has said, they this progressive progresses, they will not stop killing until they have committed the perfect crime, and that's never going to happen, so they continue to commit these crimes. So Jubert says he's out to get money, and he goes to the door of the church and he knocks on the door and Barbara we Were is frightened and she thinks she recognizes him, and he says,

can I come in and use the phone? And she lied to him and said there is no phone. I'm sorry, you can't come in. And that's when Jubert tried to force his way into the classroom, and when Barbara Weaver decided to fight back, so she pushed him in the you know, it's icy and snow on the ground, and Gilbert loses his footing and stumbles. He's frightened, she's frightened.

She's able to slam the door and he runs to the car and gets away, and Barbara Weaver runs to the home of the pastor and she's able to give a full description of the suspect and identified the car that he was in, which turned out to be a rental car at the time, and she was able to describe the car in enough way that the police were able to track what cars were being ra at this time, and they were able to track the car to John Jibbert at off At Air Force Base. So that's how

John Jubbert was stopped. It was Barbara Weaver. And whether you're religious or spiritual or not, that very morning she had prayed for God to use her in a special way, and that's what happened. But it's also interesting Dan, after I had interviewed Barbara Weaver, she since moved to California and Gilbert was on death row, she was still living in fear, and in the documentary I did on the case, she said, I constantly live in fear that he'll come

after me someday and after my children someday. So I think up until the point that Jubert was executed, the people who were involved in this case were still haunted and still still fearful. And I'm not sure that the death penalty makes that go away. It is a certain finality, but these people were in fear even years after the crimes had happened. But it was Barbara Weaver who cracked the case and helped police track down John Gilbert in his dorm room at off An Air Force Base.

was arrested. And in a way, he looks innocent. He's a handsome young guy. And then you look his eyes and I want to tell you a story that I retell in the book. The first time I went down to interview John Jewbert in Lincoln, Nebraska on death Row. I get there and I'm walking by the guards and one of the guards says to me, are you nervous? And I said, honestly, I am and he said, Mark, it'll be fine once you get past his eyes. And I didn't understand what that meant until Jubert came into

the room. And the way I describe it is shark guys. I don't know if you've ever a picture the eyes of a shark, that ray and cold. Those were John Jubert's eyes. And so you could see that in the cover of this book. Here is this honest I mean, handsome, wholesome looking young man. But look into his eyes. And that's what those guards were telling me. And what I've observed of Jubert when I was interviewing him on Death Room, and I've told people it was and it's weird in

a way. John Jubert had a good personality. We would laugh at times about things. He once imitated the church lady from Saturday Night Live that you'll read about in the book. And then one day he asked me something very poignant. He said, have you seen People Magazine this week? And I said, no, I really haven't. John. He said, Charlie Sheen is on the cover of People magazine. And he says he'd rather be in a killing scene than a love making scene in a movie. I'm in prison

for thinking that way. So Jubert was very intelligent, and at times it's hard for some people to hear had a wit and a good sense of humor. But then when I would press him about the killings and specific details, he would become rigid, and those eyes would get darker and darker. And so that's why I chose the photo for the cover, Dan is because of the ecotomy of a what appears to be a young, wholesome young man, but once you get beneath the eyes, you see the evil.

that he was just turned on by the fear. And now I understand that once I have the profile from Keith Howard of how these people operate. They operate on fear that leads to sexual excitement. That's why they're called a sexual status. So they find this material in Jubert's possession, in his closet in his dorm room, and then they go to his car, and when you see the photographs

in the book, the car is a mess. There's trash everywhere, cups, paper, and then they opened the glove compartment and they hit the treasure troves. That's where they found the piece of rope, which is a very unique piece of rope that I described in the book that they literally searched the world, even to Scotland Yard to figure out where this rope

came from. And they also found the knife. So Jubert had been so sloppy that he left the knife and the rope in the car, and so that was clear evidence that I think he was plotting another murder in the morning he was caught, so it just all started

to unravel. They found the stuff in his dorm room, they found the stuff in his car, and then they take him in for the interrogation, and that's one of the most intense parts of the book, where they get him in and interview him for hours and he finally cracks and admits that he had killed at least the first two boys. He did not as to the third murder until I had interviewed him multiple times on Death Road and those crimes had gone unsolved in Portland, Maine.

But he cracked and confessed during the interrogation.

of the victims was just overwhelming, and it's fascinating. What happened in Nebraska is that John Jibbert was one of the last people executed in the state of Nebraska, and the death penalty was actually repealed not long after. There was one other execution, I believe after Jubberts in nineteen ninety six, So the death penalty was repealed and it became a really heated debate in the state of whether

they should bring the death penalty back. And Dan that brings, you know, as we move into these drawings that Gibbert had told me about. Once the confidential source had turned the drawings or copies of the drawings over to me, I held them for a year. I did not want to get involved in the debate over the death penalty in Nebraska. I did not want to be accused of influencing the debate either way. But once the people of

Nebraska voted to reinstate the death penalty. That's when I decided to come forward and make the drawings public that I had held for over a year and had analyzed. So interesting that the death penalty. That Jubert confessed and was given the death penalty, that's sort of rare. You'd think that you would cut a deal. If you're going to confess to something, you don't do it without a

sentence that's agreed upon in advance. But he actually pled guilty and was sentenced to die by the three judge panel.

talking with and to our sources. And so in a weird way, I had an allegiance to Jubert because he was telling me confidential information or information that I was the only person who knew. And I'm not in the police department. I'm not a police officer, so I didn't tell anyone until the book came out that Jubert had confessed to the string of violent crimes and the third murder. So you can imagine when the book came out and he has confessed to the third murder, this all explodes.

So the police come after me, they come after their records, and I ended up having to testify against Jubert at the murder trial in Portland, so it was very difficult. He was very upset with me, and that was actually the last time I saw him and got to speak to him or to his attorney. We were leaving the courtroom after he had been convicted. And this is a really powerful part of the book, but I walk over to his defense attorney and I said, you know, I'd

really like to talk to John again. And he said, Mark, you can talk to John Jibbert after the State of Nebraska executes him. And he slammed the trunk of his car, got in the car and drove off. And even up until the day that Gilbert was executed, I tried to get messages to him. I went back to Nebraska and

did commentary for KMTV. At this time, I was in Atlanta working for the NBC affiliate here in Atlanta, but the station asked me to come back and do commentary, So I tried to get a message to John Jewbert. I tried to meet with him one more time, and I think dan he was so upset because I had testified against him in Portland that a he didn't want to speak to me, or the prison didn't get the messages through to him. That I wanted to talk to him, but we never spoke after what happened in Portland.

so thankful for, basically took this on for free. Here I am a young journalist in Nebraska, you know, investigating this on my own. And this is interesting thirty years later that really I fought this battle by myself to get these drawings released. And I'll tell you more about that in the minute. But there was a quote that was on chapter ten of the book. If you looked to chapter ten, I asked John, point blank, John, did you kill Ricky Stetson In Portland, and he reached over

and turned off my tape recorder. I'd been recording the interviews. And you know, by this time, Dan, we had we had formed a relationship in sort of a bond where I think he trusted me. And he said, Mark, I can't lie to you. I can't say that I didn't do it. But the last time I pled guilty to anything, I got the death penalty. And so that's when I

knew that he had killed Ricky Stetson. And that was the agreement that we reached with prosecutors in Portland, Maine, that I would come to court and I would only testify to one thing and that was that one quote from chapter ten of the book, and I would not give up any other information. And that was all it took. It lasted, you know, a day, and he was convicted just within hours. So it was one quote Dan that closed the case in Portland, and you know, probably turned

Jubert against me. That's when he decided he would never speak to me again.

and all this has been building, you know. He's stabbed the girl in the back, he slashed the boy's throat, he stabbed the teacher in the chest. So it's escalating and it's never as good as the fantasy, as I've told you. And that's when it really the tipping point came. He came up beside Ricky Stetson and there was no one around. He pulled the knife on the young boy.

And again this is you know, evidence that later would make a lot of since he made the boy pull his pants down to his underwear and stabbed him, slashed his throat and also bit the boy. So this is where it all the piece has all come together, as he had bitten Ricky Stetson's body, and he had bitten the boy Danny Joe Everley for sure in Nebraska, and if you'll remember, he talked about cannibalism in biting his babysitter after he killed her. So this is where the

pieces all really came together. And the police in Portland almost charged the wrong person there as well, so there was a massive man hunt. They interviewed a lot of people, similar to the perport squad as they called it in Nebraska, almost charged the wrong person. Gibert joins the air Force. He escapes Portland and so the police have no idea

that it's him. But in the book you'll read that police were canvassing the streets and actually stop Jubert in Portland and the police officer said what are you doing and he said, I'm on my way home, and the police officer said something to the effect be careful, there's a killer on the loose. So they came that close to catching him in Portland and didn't, and so Jubert escapes to Nebraska starts a new life. But then when the situation happened with his roommate that I mentioned earlier.

It triggered his violent behavior to kick back in. And that's where it all started in Nebraska.

get out of prison. I'm going to get out. And so what I found out after further research is that John Jubert had been meeting with the FBI and Bob Wrestler in fact, had come back to Nebraska and met with Jibert at least two to three times. And Jubert was cool operating with authorities. He was talking to them about the mind of a killer. He had even offered to go to crime scenes to help authorities solve other murders.

So it started to make sense to me, is that Jubert is cooperating with the authorities and he thinks he's going to cut a deal. And so it hit me. Then there's this debate over the death penalty in Nebraska. I know about these drawings. Does that mean that Jubert would have certainly killed again if he had gotten out of prison. So, as I said, with the thirtieth anniversary of the crimes coming up, I decided to go back

and try to get the drawings one more time. And when the prison officials found the drawings in the prison files, I was like, guys, this is it. We have now thirty years of scientific improvement. Let me get these analyzed by a criminal profiler. Let's find out what it meant. And it baffled me that the police and the prison system would fight this. Here's a killer who has been executed.

There's new evidence, let's get it studied. But as my attorney, Bob Krieger in Nebraska, who I want to thank for all his hard work, said, this was not about the truth. It was about the bureaucracy. These were, you know, government employees who wanted to protect their jobs and keeping this information confidential was a way of doing it. So, as I said, Dan, we won on the district court level. They were supposed to turn the drawings over to me

within sixty days. The Attorney General appealed and that's when the Nebraska Supreme Court decided to take it from the lower court and decide the case. So as this was happening and I'm waiting to go to trial, that's when I got the call from the confidential informant. It happens in Watergate, It's happened throughout history. It's always someone with the courage who excuse me, the knowledge that comes forward

and makes this information available. And I've written in the book how this all happened, how I was at home on that Saturday night when the man called me, and it's just instinct. I was like, do you have a scanner at your home where you can send me to pictures, and he said, I don't know anything about technology. Let me put my wife on the phone. So he puts his wife on the phone and I said, ma'am, you've

got the drawing. She described them to me and I said I knew that then, that it was the drawings. And I asked her did she have a scanner? She said no, and I said do you have a camera phone? And she said yes, And I said take photos of these images. And I gave her a private email or a way to get the images to me, so she says she can do it. So Dan, imagine it's five minutes. I'm sitting by myself. I grabbed my pad and I start writing my emotions, what I'm feeling at this very moment.

Could this be it thirty years later? I'm going to get my hands on these drawings. And that's when I heard the ding, the ding of when you've got a new message or a new text. And there it was the message with two images attached. I clicked on the first image and it was the guy just as it had been described to me, standing over the young boy. The boy has tape around his mouth, he's tied up,

and the man is stabbing him in the stomach. I click on the second image and I call it the Floating Boy, and it was almost more disturbing than the first. It's a boy that's nude, his hands are tied behind him, and his mouth again, he has tape around his mouth. So that's when I knew that I had the drawings, that this was what I'd been fighting for for all

these years. And the person he said, this is wrong, you should have these And as it turned out, he was a member of the guard unit that had shaken down Jubert's cell and that's when they found the drawings. And all those years ago, he found them so disturbing that he made copies and had put them in a box in his closet and had forgotten about them till all this controversy happened. And they saw on the news that I was fighting to get these drawings made public.

And the wife said, you have those drawings. That's what he's been fighting for, and they went to the closet and found them. So I flew to Nebraska prior and this is again it's you can't make this up. I am going out for the Supreme Court hearing, and I go meet the couple who has the drawing. They invite me to their home. I go in, We have a wonderful conversation. They bring the drawings out and the box out, and we talk all the way through it and they

give me the drawings. At that point, and Dan, I had the drawings in my briefcase as the Supreme Court was hearing the case of whether they should be released. Again, this is a movie. So I'm sitting in court listening to the arguments and I'm saying, it doesn't matter. The case is solved. I have the drawings. And then you know, we had to wait for the decision, and the Supreme Court ruled against us in the state of Nebraska. So

here I was in this dilemma. I had the drawings, but the Supreme Court had ruled against me, and there was this fierce debate over the death penalty in Nebraska. So I just held on. I was like, I'm not going to do this yet. And that's when, through law enforcement sources, I was introduced to the gentleman Keith Howard, who, as you said, and as I say in the book, had been trained by Bob Wrestler. What are the chances, right,

Bob wrestler had trained him at the FBI Academy. I get introduced to Keith and I said, Keith, would you be willing to analyze these drawings for me? And he said absolutely, so I provided him the drawings, I gave him copies of my book. I gave him photos from the crime scene. I made things available to him that only I had seen. And Dan he comes back to me in like two weeks with his fully detailed assessment of what this was about. And I just knew at

that point I couldn't keep this private. I couldn't keep this from the public that the public had a right to know. And that's when we decided, after the people of Nebraska voted to reinstate the death penalty, that I would make the drawings and the assessment from Keith Howard public. And that's what we did on December ninth of last year in the new book, which is called A Need to Kill the Death Row Drawings.

assessment of Keith Howard. So that's what I'm thinking about next, is either doing a documentary about the drawings or a docuseries like Making of a Murderer, so that people can really understand the mind of a killer through the technology and through the science that's now available to us that wasn't available at the time these crimes happened. It's like DNA DAN that has cleared so many people who were

wrongfully accused and convicted many who were rightly accused. This is a modern day DNA and John Jubert was giving us a roadmap. He thought he was going to get out of prison. But these drawings prove and Keith Howard has confirmed that that would have been a very, very bad thing if he had been released from prison. Keith Howard says, there is absolutely no doubt that he would have killed again.

So what you're seeing in these drawings is that the boys don't have a blindfold is because Jibbert wanted them to see what was about to happen to them, to elicit as much fear as possible, and for those boys and in his fantasies, to watch him murder them. So he didn't want them to scream he didn't want them to speak, but he wanted them to see what was

about to happen to him. So Dan, I would think that to me is the most disturbing thing that has come out of this is that Gibbert was a sexual sadist and what they call it organized a who starts out sloppy and things become you know, they work to perfect their crimes. So, as you'll see in the drawing, there's some very unique detail, down to the belt that Jibbert's wearing, down to the glasses and the mustache of

the man who's stabbing the young boy. Very serious detail, and that's because according to Keith Howard, he has played this over in his mind over and over. It's like a movie, so he knows the detail. But the most important thing for him is for the victim to be as frightened as possible, because that is the sexual gratification that Jubert got from these crimes. And so to me,

that was the most diabolical part of this case. It's it's sad and it's you know, I almost felt guilty that I had formed sort of a relationship with Jubert, knowing now what I know of what he did to these kids and it was all a mind game and he was and I think it was a mind game for him with me at some point that I knew as much about this case as anyone but him, and he would ask me, have you thought about this? Did

you check into this? And so being able to get these drawings has helped me get a finality to prove that Sheriff Pat Thomas was right when he told me twenty six years ago he's a cold blooded killer who likes to kill little kids. If he gets out of prison, he'll kill little kids again. And you know, Pat Thomas was right. And through these drawings I was able to prove he was right.

get these drawings. And it was ironic. You know, Warren Buffett is the richest man in the world, and he owns the Omaha World Herald, but they didn't join in the fight to get these drawings released. It was it was me by myself. And so when the Supreme Court

ruled against this, I thought that was over. And then for this confidential source who had the curvedge to come forward and make these drawings available to me, it was just all the stars in the line that this was justice, that what I had worked so hard for had been proven, and I finally got to see these drawings and get

them analyzed. And I think that's a public service and I'm proud of it, and I'm thankful for the sources who came forward, and I'm appreciative of Keith Howard who took all this time to really help us understand what these drawings mean and what they need and the whole scheme of Jubert's existence.

for the reader, it's going to explore this. It's just incredible, all the little stories within the stories and this incredible visit you have with him in prison.

the guards are not even paying attention. I could kill him in here. What if the parents had this opportunity? And that's one thing also that's very telling that I talk about in the book Day and I asked Hubert during our last inner, John, have you ever thought about killing me? You know, we're here in this room by ourselves, And he said, oh no, I could never kill you, Mark, I know you. I could never kill anyone I know.

So that tells you a lot about this person, is that it was about anonymous victims that he didn't know that could satisfy his deepest, you know, sexual needs and the evil deeds that he committed.

the videos. Interact with us because it's an ongoing discussion where we release additional information, have a dialogue, and I look forward to people reading the book. Dan and I thank you so much for having me on your program and for profiling these type cases.