A MURDER IN MY HOMETOWN-Rebecca Morris

sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com.

Casino dot com. NOEP price necessary, dailidherebit by lossy terms conditions eighting plus.

one of the most dramatic years in America. Life in Corvallis, a college town, had offered a protective, idyllic life to many, but in nineteen sixty seven nineteen sixty eight Vietnam a presidential campaign, the assassinations of Martin Luther King Junior and Robert Kennedy and the murder of Dick Kitchell changed and all that his friends thought his death was ignored because Dick was from the wrong side of the tracks. Police in the district attorney thought they knew who had murdered

the boy, but never made an arrest. Decades later, a cold case detective believed he too, had solved the case. However, once again justice was elusive. Now, nearly fifty years later, a classmate, New York Times bestselling author Rebecca Morris, returns to her home town to write about how the murder changed the town and the lives of Dick Kitchell's friends.

Rebecca Morris is the New York Times Best knowing author If I Can't Have You, Susan Powell, her mysterious disappearance and the murder of her children, Killing an Amish Country, Ted and Ann, and other books. The book that we're featuring this evening is A Murder in My Hometown, was my special guest journalist and author Rebecca Morris. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Rebecca Morris, I think, hi.

Oregon State University. The our rival school is University of Oregon, which is in Eugene, just forty miles south. So the two main universities are are pretty close geographically. But Cravallis, I mean, one of the things I learned doing during this book, uh Dan, is that I I had no idea. You know, you're when we're in grade school, we're taught

Oregon history. But I had no idea that there were slaves that came on the wagon trains to Oregon, and that, as a couple of historians describe it, Oregon's always had a schizophrenic relationship with race and UH. In fact, Southern Southerners were most of the group that came west, and what they wanted to do was create another Southern state with slavery and other uh southern uh ways of life.

And so that when when Oregon gained statehood in eighteen fifty nine, there was a law that slavery was outlawed, but African Americans couldn't live in the state, and it's remained. Portland even now is considered the widest city in the country.

And UH, there was one, you know, one black student in my high school class, and I think, I think it's one of the contributors to, uh, the kind of elitism and the town and gown feel of the college, which became a n an issue in this murder investigation because you know, we were all white, but there was a a class, a class difference that really kicked in.

hill that runs south to north. So Uh, anyway, they cleaned up the river later, but in nineteen sixty seven, I know, it was really filthy and and uh therefore the fish that the boys caught, uh, well, the one time they they tried eating, you know, frying it up and eating made them, made the family sick, so they just fished for fun. So Dan was, you know, fishing off the dock and here came this body floating and

he started to reach for it. It was faced in and he had this kind of irrational fear that, well, what if the arm came off if he grabbed it, So he let it float by, but he ran for his father, who of course knew how to contact the sheriff's office and the city police, and they brought the body ashore and it was the body of Dick Kitchell, a seventeen year old high school student who had been missing for ten days.

But he was actually well liked across across the different clicks that that had formed in high school. But he had been beaten up pretty badly. Both his eyes were bruised, his hands were bruised, you know, there were defensive uh bruising on his body. And he'd been strangled. And they concluded that, uh, he'd been strangled not so much with hands as with an arm or a piece of cloth. And then he'd been put into the river, probably in the spot uh off off the main road and Crabalos

off the drain. Main road means only a block or two, uh, but uh where two rivers meet the Marys River and in the Willamert River. And then he'd he'd I don't think he'd surfaced for a few days, but eventually he'd surfaced and and floated probably probably just about a mile from where he was putting the river to the Marina.

So he'd put up a s you know, he'd put up a struggle and you know, uh, he'd he'd been at a party uh that night, Uh at a home of some older, you know, kids in the early twenties who sort of provided a place and and alcohol for teenagers that wanted to go there, and the teenagers would chip in a little bit for you know, beer or liquor. But he'd been in a scuffle that night. He was known the last couple of years of his life for

getting into fights. He especially he had you know, brutal fist fights with his father, and in fact, the very first police officer who arrived at the scene at the river when they were bringing the body ashore, had been an officer who'd been called to the kitchen home more than once to break up fights between Dick and his father.

different than probably how something would be done today. But they waited, and I just shrugged off his disappearance and thought maybe he'd gone to the coast with friends, and you know, sometimes they'd go he and friends would disappear for a few days. But finally, when he didn't show up on a school day on a Monday, then they they went to the police.

a little bit about who Dick was. You've mentioned the rocky relationship he had with his father, but tell us a little bit more about Dick and this idea that he had friends on the other side of the tracks. You said he was well liked. Tell us a little bit more about Dick and his life with Ralph and Sylvia.

I write that. You know, I don't know if it's because of his uh very chaotic childhood or in spite of it, but he was the only boy and or one of the only boys in junior high school to show up a picture day, you know, in a shirt and tie. And he'd been a he was a really he'd been a sweet kid.

the way they spent their days outside of school was you know, writing byic goals and playing baseball and and the the main uh issue for for Dick in his life was that his parents had divorced. His mother moved back to Washington State where she was from. On on occasion he would live in Washington State with her, and then he, I don't know would be sent back to Craballis. And when Dick by by our senior year, he was his second step mother was living with him. So that

was his father's third marriage. And his father was a small business owner. He owned a a shoe repair shop in Craballis and they did live south of town where you know, geography is kind of important in Craballis. It says a lot about what kind of social class you fall into. And south of town is is you know, uh, just less fancy and and simpler and moller you know,

modest home and no uh, no shame in that. But and his parents, he was an only child, but he had, you know, a couple of step brothers that sometimes lived with Ralph and Sylvia and him, and sometimes they didn't. And uh, Dick was he just became kind of you know lost when he reached his teenage years, and you know, because there wasn't well there was summer baseball, but he had friends who you know, would take up snow skiing in the winter. Well, Dick couldn't afford anything like that,

and he began to drink. His his parents were drinkers and spent a lot of time, you know, bowling or at the Moose Club or the Elks Club in Cravalis, and that was kind of their their social life. And Dick had a car that meant the world to him, this baby Blue Ford, and he had a a jacket and those were the most important things. A uh uh kind of swayed, you know, uh, jacket and those were

his two belongings that were so important to him. And on Labor Day weekend, nineteen sixty seven, so just before the party he went to in the last night of his life, he'd cracked up his car and been arrested

for drug driving and resisting arrest. And you know, it was kind of a rather spectacular accident, kind of right in the middle of town, and one of his girlfriends was with him in the car, and so, uh, his first mention and the local newspaper was as this miner who'd been in the spectacular car rack and because he was a minor, his name wasn't mentioned. But of course a few weeks later he'd be murdered, and and then you know, his life was kind of a fair game.

And one of the things I think so interesting is how how our hometown newspaper, you know, wrote about this or or didn't write about this. I think the town was embarrassed by the murder.

But but Dick was you know, Dick was really uh he had friends in in all all all areas of life. It began to split bit a bit more in in his teenage years in high school, as you know, as some of the kids he grew up with in grade school became, you know s more serious students, and you know, they were trying to get into good colleges and they were in and we were in you know I I

uh college placement advanced placement classes. And Dick, who w you know, was just an average or a little bit below average student, was taking you know a shop and and uh car mechanics and and things like that. So his friends were I think more aware. They stayed friends with him, but they were busy with different things. They had less in common in in their teenage years than they'd had in common when when they were young, and uh, I think Dick was lonely. He'd he certainly there was

alcohol around the house. But he became known, as you know, as a partier. And there were a number of places in town where uh, it was im you know, you'd go to BC for fee or to be seen. One of them was Seatants drive in, which didn't have indoor seating. It was, uh, you stayed in your car to eat, and so kids moved between the cars a lot to talk and socialize. And he was called the Mayor of Seatans because you know, he was there all the time and uh had this huge network of people. But he'd

begun to fight a lot. And one of the other things I was naive about is that at least an maybe this is true. I've never I've never been a teenage boy. But in in his uh you know, his his group, there were these fights and he would he would try to pick a fight with somebody, or he'd try to have a friend of his fight this kid for him. And I don't know how often there actually were fights, but that he talked about it a lot, and and all through the police report. Uh, when the

the dis two detectives interviewed Dick's friends. This is a it's a theme that keeps coming up that Dick asked so and so if they would fight so and so for him, And and I I just, you know, myself, didn't really know that that was one of the things that occupied at least, you know, some teenage boys days

and nights. It was thinking about fights. But I assume there's some you know, some psychological connection to his relationship with his father in all of that is that, you know, he he was angry, and he was the night he showed up for that party, he was uh, you know,

looking forward to some kind of altercation. He was also drunk, and and there was an argument at the at the party, and and you know it, I always thought, well, that must have led to his disappearance, But it was actually something quite different.

the detectives. So who was on that list that was at this home the day after this event apparently happened.

same uh night as Dick's last night. There's uh Paul and Judy Efforts, who are the runners of the house and who are also grad you know from our high school, but are a little bit older twenty two, twenty three years old. There are a couple of other seventeen year old boys, and uh mel Plemons and Marty Tucker. And there is this twenty three year old Doug Hamblin who has kind of has a reputation around town as a

trouble maker. And they turns out to be the exact makeup of the people who'd been there the night Dick was there, and they were playing the same game that they'd played ten days before, which is called uh what was it called pass out? Just drink, drink until you pass out. And now on the night that Dick was there, on the tenth, there'd been you know, probably a dozen teenage sh other teenage kids come in and out, you know,

buy buy some alcohol and leave. On this night ten days later, Uh, it's just the key, you know, the key five people and they're uh, they're playing the same drinking game. But the thing I thought was really interesting is, you know, the the detectives tell them, you know, your friend Dick, who you're the last people who see him alive, probably you know, he was found deadity murdered, and nobody flinched.

And maybe they'd already heard it because it was twelve hours after the body'd been found, and word kind of travels fast and cabalas or a small town, but or maybe they had firsthand knowledge and and weren't surprised. But uh,

nobody seemed uh, very surprised. And their names were on the list that some of their names were on the list that Dick's parents came up with, but there were also other lot of other names from the list, including the two girls you know he'd been dating, and you know, some boyhood friends and a boy in Dick's neighborhood who

you know. Because Dick didn't have his car because he'd smashed up, he needed to ride to the party October tenth, and a neighbor boy had given him a ride, and so they had a long list of people to talk to. But I think they knew very early on that there was something about the people at that at that party house.

They didn't know what had happened to him, but they knew that Doug Hamblin had given him a ride after the party. Everybody knew that Doug had off. Doug had taken three boys home who needed rides after at at midnight on that night, and two of them were like north of the city and Dug uh Dick was the last person in Doug's car, and so Doug people year

that Doug had given Dick a ride. So he what he told the police is that Dick wouldn't tell him where he lived, and so Doug said he just dropped him off on a downtown street that was, you know, incidentally, you know, a block and a half from the river. And so they knew fairly early on that this that Doug Hamblin, who was twenty three, had was probably the last person to see Uh Dick. The rumors that were

circulating early on were about you know gangs. I mean, I don't We're not talking you know, inner city gangs, but groups of kids from maybe you know, the smaller towns uh east of Cravallo's or south of Crevallos had come, you know, cruising through town and seen him or picked him up or something, or that that something went wrong

like that. The the theory that, in fact, my classmates for fifty years, I mean, we'd we assumed his father had killed him, that Dick had gotten home, he'd had one last fight with his father, and his father had uh maybe even accidentally killed him, and then he'd gotten rid of his body. Uh, I mean we I thought that until last year. Uh uh, we never had any idea,

uh that that the focus was on Doug Hamblin. Uh. It just it wasn't made public at the time it was made public that he was among Dick's friends who who had polygraphs. The DA never told so it wasn't it wasn't of course in the gazat times that uh Doug had failed three polygraphs. But now we know he did. And so really for fifty years, we thought, you know, his father had had killed him and maybe in an accident, and so he was somebody that the police needed to eliminate.

And you know, Dick's father and stepmother balk to taking polygraphs. But they finally did, and so they began to you know, they gave polygraphs to a lot of a lot of the teenagers and began to kind of Winnow the list of suspects.

the the examiner said that Doug's test was inconclusive. Uh. The n newspaper story, UH, the next newspaper story about the case, after the first big story that Dick had been found murdered, UH, was about the detectives taking this group of kids to uh have polygraphs, and it named them. Even the seventeen year olds and it named Doug, but it did it just said, you know, the headline was

they seem seemed to pass. So the DA knew there was problems with Doug's polygraph, but they weren't going to you know, admit it in the in the newspaper at that point, and they never did. They just wanted to, you know, they were going to put some pressure on him, and so, and he consented to second polygraph and then finally they did a third one at the State Police headquarters in Salem, and that's when the examiners said, you know, most likely this is your killer.

but also that there was other things like a code in the car. So tell us about this code in the car, and then the idea of again normally what they would do with processing a car, that would be that they would want to search and process. Tell us about what the police did at that time, and again what they would have done today, yes.

was Dick's code? And so when the police visit the uh Everetts home ten days later, they ask, you know, what about Dick's coat, and Doug hamblin actually, you know, volunteers, and I just think he did because it would have

been worse if he'd caught lying. He said, he found a coat in his car, uh you know, that week, and he'd thought it was a child's code, and so he'd given it to a nine year old neighbor boy and he did he got it back from you know, the police didn't go get it, which you'd think they would do. They they uh the next time they saw Doug,

Doug had brought it. I brought it to them. So, I mean, one of my theories is that when Dick realized he was gonna be fighting with Doug, that he took off his coat and put in the car because that was you know, a cherish belonging to him. Of course, six nineteen sixty seven, sixty eight. It's it's before DNA testing. It's before an awful lot of uh things could be done that that are dan done now routinely. I was surprised that they didn't seize Doug Doug's car once they

knew he was a suspect. They went and looked at it, walked around it, looked inside, didn't see anything. I think. I mean, I know today the car would be seized and there'd be some kind of more detail, uh examination of it. The ninth that they showed up at the Everts House. Ten days after the murder. They looked at Doug's hands and but he worked at a at a metal foundry, and you know, his hands were greasy, dirty,

well worn. Anyway, they didn't see anything. He didn't appear to have been you know, hit in the face, and they they just couldn't tell by really looking at him ten days later. But what really uh stymied them is that there was uh, there was no they didn't have a crime scene. I mean, we don't really know if he let Dick off at Fourth and B Streets downtown. They went and looked around there. Uh it's a it's

it'd be a quiet area at night. It's uh, there's kind of a main street through there, but not a lot of traffic at night. The State Employment office is on one corner. There's some apartment buildings, a couple other small businesses. There was You're right, the ten days had passed and probably had rained. But they they didn't find anything there. Uh, So they don't know where the crime was committed. They had no you know, forensics, they had

no confession. They uh, I just really didn't have uh much to go on besides the polygraphs, which of course are inadmissible. Uh in court they s in a murder.

the murder. But these two detectives have to go through every other lead and and talk to everybody involved, not only at that party but ex wives and the babysitter, Pt. Hawcket. So what do they how do they proceed with this, and how it's interesting how much they relied on in those days this inadmissible polygraph test to be able to

go further with this. So given that they rely on those polygraph tests, once everybody has been given the goal ahead and cleared, how do they proceed with and who do they look at as potential other suspects in this?

were you know, pretty open minded about it. And I should explain it was a pretty short investigation by early nineteen sixty eight, so the murder was in October. This this had a pretty short life because there was nowhere much for them to go with it. And once you've talked to you know, the thirty or forty people who knew these people. It it just there there were no leads. And I think the thing that that Doug Hamblin was lucky about was that, you know, he wasn't nobody. Nobody

drove along, nobody saw anything. You know, they were trying to find witnesses or or look at different scenarios. Had Dick been hitch hiking and picked up or you know, was he was he seen uh after leaving Doug's car, and he never was. And then in nineteen sixty eight, you know, the detectives were pulled off on to other cases.

Just to back up for a second. The other thing about the UH investigation procedures at the time that of course it's you know, pre cell phones and the fact that UH today you know, people have we leave an electronic footprint. You know, there's nothing right we do that can't be traced. And it it just was so interesting to remember that in nineteen sixty seven, sixty eight that that was not the case or what UH A detective I talked to recently about another case tall called life patterns.

You and maybe everybody knows that term, but I I didn't know it as far as the police investigation that you look at somebody's life patterns, and in this case, they would've looked at decks and they would've looked at at Doug Hambling's and the other parties involved to see, well, what did they do? What did they do differently? Were they ever seen after this moment in time? You know, when was the next moment in time? What what would they you know, what would Doug usually be doing the

next day? And could they look to see if he you know, showed up at work for instance, and uh, if he changed his life patterns. So they they proceeded by really talking to everybody. The the girl who was the living babysitter for Paul and Judy Everts, who'd c kind hadn't been there the night of the party, or she'd been there and then left for a while. Uh,

they went to California to find her. And you know, there were some people that that the rumor was they moved away very quickly, and you know, it just seemed to be kind of coincidence. But they checked, they checked all that out. But uh so Ray, really they were left where their their main suspects were were. He here's the fellow who flunks three polygraphs and and then there's Dick's father, who was, you know, very surly to the police.

The other thing I found most shocking is that never once did Dick's father call or show up at the police department and nag them and say, what's going on with the investigation and my son's murder. Never once. Now, they dropped in on him at the shoe store, and he and Sylvia didn't like that much. And you know, uh, thank goodness Jim Montgomery took all these detailed notes for the police file, because there's absolutely perfect lines of dialogue of them saying, we know our rights. You know, we

know our rights. You can't you can't hound dislike this. And they were not very sympathetic parents or people in this case. And it appears, you know, Dick's father didn't kill him, but but it was. It's hard to find sympathy for them.

she told them that. And they had heard at the time that Doug suddenly Doug Hamblin was suddenly attending a church in Crabalis UH after the murder, and UH appeared to be possibly confiding in a minister at the church, and that minister accompanied Doug to the third polygraph exam in Salem, and at some point the detectives went to see the minister and the minister told them, if you're looking at Doug Hamblin, you're looking in the right direction. So that was a pretty uh big thing to hear

from somebody that Doug was confiding in. And UH, so you know, it's it's a little sticky with what kind of It's kind of like you know, privacy rights around uh clients of of attorneys, you know, what kind of att attorney share and what can and a minister's share. But the minister shared that with the detectives in nineteen sixty seven or nineteen sixty eight. So Martha knew that, uh, Doug had you know. Basically what she knew as his third wife was that this incident that happened and Doug said,

you know, he didn't do it. She went to a an attorney uh one year to deal with a a custody issue from her her former marriage, and the attorneys said, oh, you're married to Doug Hamblin. Uh, the only man to get away with c with murder and cabalence. And uh so she thinks he was very much capable of it. You know, he was. He was a brute, He drank a lot, He got angry, and he had problems with rage, and he never admitted it to her, but she thought he was capable of it.

of what food can do. Blue Apron delivers fresh, preportioned ingredients and step by step recipes right to your door that can be cooked in under forty five minutes. The menu changes every week based on what is in season and is designed by Blue Apron's in house culinary team. Blue Apron sends only non GMO ingredients and meet with no added hormones. Blue Apron offers twelve new recipes each week and customers can pick two, three or four recipes

based on what best fits their schedule. I tried the Chipolti glazed chicken with pablano and Bublano's is a mild chili pepper and mixed it with the rice the lime rice, and my wife and I made this put it together ourselves. It was fantastic tasting and we made it ourselves at home. The Chipolti glazed chicken was fantastic and the mix of spices the pablano was delicious. Check out this week's menu and get your first three meals free at blue apron

dot com slash murder. That's blue Apron dot com slash murder to get your first three meals free Blue Apron a better way to cook. Now, Rebecca, we were talking about all of the information that detective Montgomery had and his partner Akama, but they went to the DA Frank Knight, and what was his response to all the evidence gathering that they had and their idea that they should take

this to the grand jury. What did Frank Knight continually have to say to these two detectives regarding the chances of doing that.

That was their one shot. And because you can't be retried and he was, you know, they tried putting some pressure on Doug not not in a physical kind of way, but you know, they they would meet with him alone and hoped to kind of intimidate him, and uh, and the detectives you know, went home every night just uh

really frustrated. One of the the themes that came through when I began talking to my classmates about this murder was there was an overwhelming sense that if Dick's father had been prominent in the town, that this would have been solved, that somebody would have been arrested and convicted. And when I began to look into this three years ago, I mean I was really stunned, uh how widespread that feeling was, that this was actually about uh class in in our college town and kind of the haves and

have nots. And I asked, you know, that there wouldn't have been a book without these two detectives in the DA who are all now, you know, in their eighties and still you know, have very sharp memories. And I asked them about that that you know, would've made a difference if if Dick's father was you know, a university person like like my dad was. And uh, they said, you know, of course, they said, no, not at all.

They they were, you know, in a lot of uh agony over not being able to bring they'd never had they'd never had a case, they hadn't closed, they never had a murder they hadn't closed, and so they you know, took this personally. They were all every one of them had young children themselves, and I you know, it just it it really became personal for them to to try to to try to close this and try to find some justice for for Gick. And you know, uh, the

DA just said there wasn't enough there. And you know, a cold case detective later on that I'm sure we'll talk about, had a different opinion. But you know, it's not enough to be the person who gave somebody a ride on the last last night of their lives. You know, they didn't know who had killed him. M M.

of been forgotten. And what he did is he was a great believer in organization, and he was uh he has a very methodical way of dealing with the cold case, which is which pays off for him, uh usually, and it seems very simple, but just to you know, begin at the beginning and get everything uh organized. For one thing, Well, what he found is that the original police report and the notes they'd never been they'd never been typed up, they'd never been you know, f kept in the formal

uh record keeping of of any kind. The audio tapes that had been made with Doug Hamblin when they met with him alone one on one, uh, not only were lost, they'd never been transcribed. Uh. Dick's clothing was missing, photos that were taken at the river when the body was first discovered had never been developed, and the negatives were missing now that I found Actually isn't unusual. Usually photos aren't developed until you know, the DA or somebody asks

for them. But but in the m anyway, the negatives were missing, the photos have never been developed, the audio tapes were gone. But uh Tyson Poole continued to think that that Doug could have been charged. And so over a couple of years, UH, the cold case detective was pulled off to work on other things. He came back

to it. He went to talk with Martha Taylor and also talked with UH a man who had been a neighbor of Doug's first wife and who who said that Doug had confessed the murder to that to his first wife, who is deceased now. And uh Tyson Poole was ready to to talk to the DA in two thousand eleven about about bringing charges, and Doug Hamlin had just died and so that was you know, he was too late. Yeah, So the case is considered closed. It's called uh closed conditionally,

uh I'm sorry. Closed exceptionally is the term meaning it's closed because prosecutors either declined to proceed or because of the death of the suspect. So in this case, that's that's probably uh, both of them. One of the things I thought was uh so interesting, having spent my life in in broadcasting my first few decades, is is what news coverage was like at the time that there was never ever a story in the paper about you know, who who Doug wa I'm I'm sorry who Dick was.

And today, you know, we'd see TV cameras at the school, or there'd be stories, you know, quoting Dick's coach or a teacher, or his shop teacher, or his friends or his friends who played baseball with him. I mean, you know what I mean, Dan, we'd we'd right get a glimpse of who was this young person, and there was nothing like that, And I I just don't think, you know, the media worked like that then, So you know, people reading about it in the paper never really knew who

he was or what happened to him. And incredibly sad thing is that, you know, adults and friends of his parents were were overheard saying, you know, good riddance, you know, good riddance. It couldn't happen, you know, to a better kid, and just yeah, writing this off because he'd been in some.

any there was no drugs. There probably was, you know, pot around Carballis in the late sixties, but uh uh, I think the DA told me the very first arrest for any drug related thing in Travalis was up on the college campus in the early seventies, when you know, at a a guard at a at a entrance to the university smelled, you know, smelled pot from a car, and that was the very first drug arrest and from Alas it was rather tame.

stuck on the back of the original case file. But it was a Pool that met with that Pool met with him and and and like as you mentioned that he had said that he lived across the street from Doug's first wife, Teresa, and he said that Teresa told him many times that Doug d they committed murder, and he had tried to convince him or her to go to authorities. But you said she was afraid.

I think he went over where it was dark, near the river, and the passenger side door of Doug's car was broken so that you had to flied across you know, the bench seat to leave the car, and he told the lice he had to drag Dick out of the car. And I think he'd dragged Dick out and they began

to fight. Dick stopped to take off his jacket, and then you know, uh Dick was beaten and strangled, maybe with Dug's arm, and I think you know, Doug panicked and took Dick's body, uh to a place with uh hidden access to the river nearby, and he he'd been in trouble, you know a lot of his life, and the Camberlin went a head and as an adult was in was in some trouble, uh off and on and uh you know if he if he kept them to himself for all those years, I can't imagine it was you know pleasant.

don't think he planned the murder. I I there's no evidence of or even I can't see an inkling of why you would do that. But you stayed a pretty good case that he had a violent propensity, and that certainly Dick was considered sort of a pain in the ass and and it acted up at this party as well and been disrespectful to the hosts.

But Doug wasn't that person at all. And Doug, you know, Doug at his own problems and he and yeah, I think I don't think he intended to hurt or fight fight Dick at all, but he found himself with Yeah, Dick was being a pain in the ass, and so uh, Doug you know, pulled over somewhere to to let him out of the car. I suppose he's dreamt up the you know, you wouldn't tell me where he lived because we couldn't think of another reason that he'd pulled over

his car and Dick had gotten out. I mean, everybody knew Dick had been, you know, the last person to be dropped off in the car. And why didn't Dick get home? Well, because something had prompted Doug to pull over the car. But they were, you know, both pretty unhappy people, and then they've been drinking, and I think it just got out of hand.

was and other people were. And then the reaction that you have, which I think is just very very striking, that when they came again ten days after they discovered the body, that these people were playing a drinking game, which seems gonna be convenient again if you really wanted to kind of bolster your nerves or get up the nerve to be able to answer questions. And yet how on earth could those people not know if the town

believed at some point that Doug was the guy. Why wouldn't those people at that party, given all the circumstances, believe Doug had done it as well?

he says that got into a scuffle with somebody. Well, numerous people at the party told police that Di dick had got into a scuffle with Paul because Dickett said something rude to Judy, and Paul took him outside and grabbed him by the neck and put him up against the pillar and gave him a talking to. You know, That's what numerous people at the party say happened. So I I thought myself that, well, maybe Paul Everts was you know, going to be uh a suspect, but uh,

but he wasn't. But I I the other thing that, as far as I know, they the ten days later, when the detective showed up at the house and found the same small group of people, they never asked Doug, as far as I know, well, why did it take you ninety minutes to drive I don't know, four miles, drop off these kids and and come back Doug? It returned? I don't think I said that yet. Dugot returned to the house the night of the murder. Yeah, And I'm I'm just so curious, Well, did he stop at his place,

which was an apartment downtown and cleaning self up? Did he need to do that? Or when he got back to Paul and Judy's this is this is within you know, minutes of the murders. Did he did he ask for band aid? Did he wash himself from you know, clean up in their bathroom or And they were never asked, well, what was Doug's you know demeanor when he returned to

the party on October tenth, eleventh? And why did it Why would it take him ninety minutes really to drive three kids a couple of miles And there's no there's no indication that that they looked in the you know what was happening. Well, I guess it was part of that missing time was when he you know, he was fighting Dick and deciding what to do the body.

take to the grand jury. But in two thousand and eight the DA thought they could.

hm uh. And going back to Judy for a second, I think the reason she was that polygraphed is is just kind of you know, uh u a janitor h J janitor, a gender uh, you know, conclusions at the time that you know, she was they had a baby there, had a year and a half year old child. She was a young woman, she was I think she was twenty one at the time, and you know, they so she wrote along with them the Eugene, but was not polygraphed.

And I I think probably uh today that that she would be m but you know, she got a pass uh back then.

And I've talked t talk to people recently who have taken polygraph and a lot of times it's not you know, it's not did you called did you kill the Kitchell? It would be uh, did you did you see the Kitchell after twelve midnight d on this date? Or do you know what happened? Or and and maybe they do to some people ask more appointed questions, but I've I've been interested in how kind of round about they can be.

And I don't know if that's uh the way of sort of more subtle testing or more subtle test results. Do you know Dan? It just seems like a lot of questions are kind of round about do you know about or do you know what happened? Or or you know, did you see him put in the river?

exactly what kind of questions. So I know that, especially in the last year or so, that so many books that I've covered on the program refer to how much the police relied on those polygraph tests despite them being inadmissible. They really did use them and rely on them and believe in the results. And as you show in this book, just with a different with the police saying we want somebody else to examine, or they didn't go with the same examiner, they went with another examiner, and hence that

other exam eminer came up with a different opinion. And as we know from all the cases and documentaries that have come up lately, that sometimes there's a bias going into that room. Oh yeah, and to say, you know, so, it's a bias that can't be controlled. And I think that's what I'm hearing in a lot of yes, in the last year.

And also they'd checking with for instance, if if if Doug Hamlin had told him one thing in an interview, then would he say the same thing during a polygraph exam or not. I mean it it sounds very simple and basic, but but I I didn't really know that well the detectives could suggest questions because of course, how would this polygraph examiner know, you know, what the what they were trying to find out. He had to be he'd have to be told. And and then it was

very different questions that they asked. You know, Dick's step brother who uh, you know, they they fought a lot and and Dick actually picked on him, although the step brother was a little older, so he was kind of a suspect first for a day or two and uh, and the kinds of questions they asked him were were It's quite different about maybe maybe framing it as if he'd been an observer to the murder, you know, and that might have well been if Dick's father, you know,

maybe this the step brother had been along uh with it. Uh Yeah, it's uh incidentally, the so that when I started looking into this three years ago, there was nothing at the police department to be found. There was no no case file, was just nothing. And I knew that in two thousand and eight that uh, the cold case detective had met with friand Ny the DA and the two detectives and a couple other detectives to talk about the case. So that's another thing where the cold case

started with. Uh, the detectives started with talk to the people who were there, and thank goodness, you know, they were still around. And so I knew, uh that he'd held this case file in his hand, the cold case guy. So when I was, you know, urging the police department, you know, they went through the basement, they went through

their boxes. They thought I'd been lost or tossed, and finally I said, you know, in two thousand eight, Tyson Toole sat at at this desk and then he left in these on the forest and Ben door again, would you just look in his desk because I knew he'd had it in his hand in two thousand and eight, and they looked and they found it.

dollars to to get a copy. But you know, and I've had other stories where you know, there it's completely lost. There's another story I'm interested in in Oregon in a book, and and that that just doesn't seem to exist anywhere, including you know, state archives or uh anything. It was a really important case. Uh, in nineteen sixty one and the first woman sentenced to death in Oregon, and uh,

there's just there are no records at all. So you almost need there is a trial transcript that we paid one thousand dollars for sure, so because you have to have felt some kind of record.

Then tell us when this happened again, your interest in true crime and journalism and writing, and how this affected you and to the point where you became involved in this and to write this book and involved in this case, interviewed these people that were involved, these detectives in da tell us go back as you do and write in a book, tell us how it started.

unsolved murder. And I heard from dozens, literally dozens of classmates who said they had never forgotten it, never forgotten that it had never been solved, never forgotten that he'd just been forgotten, and that there'd never been an arrest.

So I went down, UH three years ago. And of course I'd been back to my hometown many many times over the years, but I started going down every couple of months, and the first time I met with a group of about a dozen classmates and just to talk about, you know, their memories of Dick, of the murder, and

to talk about, you know, growing up in Crabalis. And then I found that the DA and the two detectives were still around, and I started talking to people because you can't do a book like this, but Dick's family, you know, his parents were deceased, and the step brother and a uh didn't wanna wanna speak with me, And so there's no family to talk to. And but in fact, Dick's friends were his family. And I was asked the other day why the book is dedicated to our our

high school class of nineteen sixty eight. It's because that was Dick's family. Literally. Uh So, I one of the first themes that that that came up in the Facebook pos and then when I started going down there and meeting with classmates, is that this idea about you know, if his family, if his father had been prominent, that it would have been different. And I'd always wanted to write something about uh crevalis and and I will say

it's it's rather frightening to do a memoir. And I do call this, you know, part true crime, part part memoir. And I said a lot more personal things than I thought I would in the book but became But I

think Cravallous became a character in the book. And to write about Cravelli's character and to write about, you know, its history and and and then what I did was follow the lives of several UH classmates through that through our senior year, and ones that knew Dick Will and ones that didn't know Dick Will, but also seemed to represent things that were going on with our j generation and we were uh really you know, isolated town and

there weren't a lot of political demonstrations there. You know, it wasn't really uh diversity, you know, social class was was important. And we were very very highly educated group because uh we had teachers with lots and lots of graduate degrees and and I'm sure it's the school district. It was always known for t you know, having the the best and the brightest. But we also had, you know,

other kids who who didn't do as well. But uh so I I tried to tell the story of nineteen sixty eight, which is a pretty pivotal year in America. And how you know, my classmates, we we attended, we marched when Martin Luther King was assassinated. That you know, the Oregon presidential primary used to be a lot more important than is now now that Iowa New Hampshire have

kind of taken over. But you know, Richard Nixon was campaigning and or in for Ballus, Robert Kennedy was killing intervallus and literally the word spread our our graduation evening party was stopped the announcement that Kennedy just been shot in Los Angeles. So the the the the bigger world was beginning to come into Crevalus and and along with knowing, you know, Dick's murder went unsolved, you know, that was that was the year we were growing up.

was interested in crime or true crime. For m many years I worked in radio and TV news in in New York City and in Seattle and in Portland, Oregon, and also was writing for magazines and newspapers. And and then UH my very first book about UH, a girl missing from Tacoma, Washington since nineteen sixty one and her neighbor Ted Bundy as a teenager Uh. Grew out of an article for the Seattle Times that I was writing for and at and there had never been a book

about that case. And I got to know the girl's mother and basically spent the last year of this woman's life with her. Uh interview here and uh and found whoever else was still around that had known dead I'm sorry, known Ted Bundy and known him as a as a young person. And uh. So that was my first book. And and then I'm the opportunities kind of you know, Uh, the door opened to writing more about true crime. And I I couldn't have told you I was going into

doing this, but it's it's pretty interesting. And I I think back to when I was reading you know, True Detective as a twelve year old, and uh, you know, I always say this is not original with me. But the crime is the end of the story. I mean, I'm really interested in what leads up to it and who the people are, you know, both the perpetrators and the and the victims and the community in which a crime takes place. But it's always, you know, sort of my favorite part of painting the story of a crime.

the parents didn't talk to the kids. Unlike today, there would have been, like you say, trauma counselors, there would have been more discussion and what this meant to the students, And yet the students among themselves.

And even even the two uh women I spoke to who were his girlfriends at the time, their parents didn't sit down and talk with them about what this. You know, how they felt about this kid who they dated and murdered and you know, uh, one of his friends told me that you know, he he heard, uh, he heard somebody say, you know, good riddance and everything, and he

just went home to his bedroom and cried. And I think I think there were his friends who really felt it like that and you know, and went to the funeral. And then there were his acquaintances or the people he drank with who you know, they talked more, but on

a more of a gossip level among themselves about it. Uh. But it didn't seem to be something that families talked about then, you know, and including my own, and my parents may not have known that I knew him or just thought I went to school with him and that that's true. But you know, today we well, I don't know, you know, helicopter parents and all that we'd be we'd be taking the temperature, wouldn't we of of how this affects our kids.

And then Greg Oldson and I did a Killing an Amish Country together about a very rare murder among the Amish in two thousand nine, and so again learning about the Amish and winning their trust uh when they're don't you give interviews was really really important to you know, usually winning the trust of people is pretty important to these books, and I always I don't take that for granted.