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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good evening, ambitious, attractive, and full of potential. Five young college students prepared for the
new semester to beginning careers in starting families. They had a lifetime of experiences in front of them, But death came without warning in the dark of the night, brutally ending five promising lives, leaving behind three gruesome crime scenes. The Gainesville Ripper terrorized the University of Florida, casting an ominous shadow across the frightened college town. What evil lurked inside him, What demons drove him to kill? What made
him a Monster of All Time? Book they were featuring this evening is a Monster of All Time, The true story of Danny Rowling The Gainesville Ripper. With my special guest, journalist and author and attorney JT.
Hunter. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. JT.
Hunter, Thanks dang glad to be here.
Thank you very much. One of the worst killers in true crime history. Thank you very much, the monster of all time. You bring us right to a scene and I get you described this. This is in Parchment, Mississippi's tenttry in Mississippi. You take us as the reader right to nineteen eighty seven. But tell us a little bit about this Parchment, Mississippi prison. You talk about when he was transferred there and then he angered a guard there, so he was put in a very bad prison, but
a really bad place in a very bad prison. Tell us about this Parchment Mississippi State Penitentiary.
Well, Parchman has a notorious reputation for being really hard on the prisoners there. There's a really long, interesting history and Parchman if you really want to take the time to look into it, but it definitely was not a place that folks wanted to be sent to to serve their sentences and any rolling when he went there, he
had a he had a really rough time there. He was he was putting a really when I gather really older part of the prison there that was in really bad condition, and so he you know, he had to endure a quire a bit while he was there, and it apparently really affected him, you know, not just physically and emotionally, but psychologically as well.
You talk about that he thought, or at least had said to administration that he was because he was a CoP's son, former cops son, that he wanted to be transferred to administrative segregation. So we're talking about placed in a place that's not so desirable for an inmate, would be segregation in any prison, correct.
Yeah, I mean being being isolated and not having much contact with anyone else. It's like a prison within a prison. From from understanding.
Now, something right out of it sounds like a fictional movie. You talk about a scene that she could be or it could not be, depends on if someone were to believe what this person was saying. And you talk about this Gemini. You describe this prisoner in these horrid conditions and his sanity tested by being in this prison. What is Gemini, Well, Gemini is something that Danny Rolling identified as the I believe that the cause of.
The murders he ultimately ended up committing. And the way Rolling explained it was Gemini was this sort of demonic force that spoke to him while he was serving is hard time their imparchment under these really miserable conditions, and that offered him a way way to survive the experience. And this is something that he apparently believed occurred and ultimately ended up acting on.
You say that Gemini gave him the ability to embrace the assurance of vengeance and pledging revenge for the countless injuries he had inflicted upon him, and a new sense of purpose had washed over him. With this, he didn't take the reader to August twenty sixth, nineteen ninety, Gainesville, Florida and a couple of students, Christina Powell. First, we talk about Christina Powell. She's seventeen years old and she has moved from Jacksonville to go to the University of
Florida and gained Unville. The classes weren't start, she leaves before the weekend, So tell us she has a relationship with close relationship with her parents. Tell us what happens on that weekend on August nineteen ninety in Gainesville.
Well, this is the weekend before classes were scheduled to start there at the University of Florida, and Christina was a freshman. She was an incoming freshman there at the college, and she had moved into a new apartment there in Gainesville along with her new roommate, another freshman in college there, and they were, you know, doing what any college kids do when they're getting ready to start their semester. They you know, they're trying to get their stuff moved in.
They were, you know, looking around, trying to find some sort of part time job to work during school, and getting supply for the upcoming semester, all these sorts of things.
And she was there for the weekend, and normally, I guess she called home quite often to talk to her parents, and her parents didn't hear from her for several days, and they really got worried about it and ultimately ended up driving over to Gainesville to see what was going on, to see why they hadn't heard from their daughter.
Now, you talk about right at the apartment that they had to break in, there was a locked dead bolt, and as soon as they broke in, basically they could smell death as you write, and they found Sonja Larson. She was eighteen years old, her Christina's roommate. They find her first, what is the I know this is graphic. Well what's the condition of Sonia? How do they find her? And what's the condition?
Well, that the body was already starting to show signs the decomposition, and uh, there were you know, readily apparent that she had been stabbed to death. There were stab wounds visible on her her shirt was there were there were stab wounds that could be seen on her arm, on her leg and chafts area, and you know you can imagine the bloody condition of the body.
Yeah, that was there.
There was there was quite a bit of blood found all around there.
Now you talk about too that there was also a large piece of flesh was cut from her upper thigh. And then another scene they'd come in, the perpetrators come in through the upstairs. So there was you say, a second scene, ghastly scene was downstairs and it was a nude body of Christina Powell. What is one of the things again very unw usual that that that they encountered when they saw the scene.
Christina Powell, Well, like like Sonia Larson, she had been stabbed to death multiple stab wounds to her. But you know, like similar to what you mentioned about the flush green cut from Sonia leg with Christina her both of her nipples had been cut off, and her body had been arranged a certain way, you know, indicating that whoever had murdered her had you know, staged her body in a particular way and a band her hair out on to the side of her head and placed her in a certain position.
There those other unusual things, like you said, there was he obscenely posed her with her legs spread, but also there was some effort to be able to clean up the scene with dis soap, and also that that he bound these women with duct tape, and that he had taken the duct tape away after he left. This this murder scene does what in this little college town on the very beginning of the college year.
But it certain it certainly freaked everybody out, I guess the way to kind of sum it up, made everyone very much, very much weary, very much concerned. Nobody had any idea who this killer was, that had that had killed these two young girls inside their own apartment. So there was a lot of fear in Gainesville. Nobody knew who had done it. It could have been anybody. It could have been, you know, neighbor.
And so how do police proceed in terms of trying to to deal with this looks like someone a killer around the loose, a mad killer on the loose.
Well, you know, they started organizing the best they could investigating the murders. But before they could really even get going too far with their investigation of these murders, they found another body. So, you know, right right on the heels of the other body showed up.
Now you talk about this third victim, this is Christa Hoyt, and very interestingly, she was working also part time as a clerk in the records Bureau of Alachua County Sheriff's office, and she failed to show up for a midnight work shift and so co workers sent a deputy to check on her. And that's how she was discovered again the lock department. And when he looked inside, what did he find that Crystal Hoyt's crime scene.
Christmas crime scene was really I mean, they're all all these scenes were pretty gruesome, but but Christa's was the most gruesome. That what had been done to her, her body, you know, she had been she had been killed similarly to the other two victims, but her she had also been decapitated, and her head had been placed on a bookshelf next to the bed where her body was positioned.
Her body had been cropped up on the edge of the bed as if it was sitting there, and her head was put on the bookcase side it positioned as if looking at the at the body. So the head the head was, you know, facing the body as if Christo was looking at her. Brown decapitated body there obviously meant to devote orror on whoever happened to find her.
You also talk about the police afterwards. Again they were looking for some sort of witness, and her landlord told police that on August twenty fifth, he had noticed the gate latch had been unlocked, and so he just mentioned that to her and she thought, well, maybe it was maybe a television repairman or something in the area, and he hadn't thought much of it, but in retrospect he told police said what he had noticed with the latch. Now this is the third victim in Gainesville in two days.
You talk about Gainesville Police Chief Whalon Clifton. He calls the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for help. He knows he's over his head by a long shot with this, doesn't he.
Yeah, it's too much for a coincidence to have the two girls bodies found one day, and then the very next stay to find this other body, you know, killed in a similar fashion. So so called the scigns were pointing to the same killer having done this, and so yeah, so Gainesville wasn't in a place that had an experience with a lot of murders, and to have this mini happened all at once, Yeah, certainly he decided he needed to call him some some outside help.
He talked too that in this general area, but at least Florida for sure, and close by that another infamous serial killer had terrorized college town a decade before. Who was that?
Maybe that was Ted Bundy, very well, a serial killer who killed, you know, he killed the different states, but in Florida and in Tallahassee, Florida. He was notorious for having attacked and killed number of state university students up there, and it was ultimately Cott not long afterward, I believe, around the Jacksonville area. But but yeah, Ted Bundy was
certainly a notorious killer. And then you know, rolling ends up having a sort of a similar way of going about doing things, you know, instead of instead of killing college students in Tallahassee at Florida State, he's killing college students in Gainesville at the University of Florida.
Yeah, let's get back to more murder. Unfortunately, August twenty eighth, nineteen ninety two more bodies are found. This time one was a male, Manuel Toboda, a twenty three year old, and Tracy Pauls is twenty three years old too, in their roommates, and this is about a mile from Christa Hoyt's home, so in the general area, and their stabbed to death. But tell us what a little bit about
the background why Tracy moved in with men? Well, a little bit about the background about these two people before we talk a little bit more about the crime scene itself. Another ghastly affair.
Well, Tracy in Manny at the Boda. They were friends from back in high school. They went to high school down in South Florida, and they became friends there near Miami. And they were a little bit older than the other victims. They were both twenty three. Of the leaves, whereas the other victims refreshming around eighteen, nineteen years old, so they were a couple of years older. They had known each other since high school and they were really good friends.
And as you as you undicated, Tracy had been, you know, a little concerned about her safety. So she decided to be a good idea to be roommates with with Manny because well, for one man, he was was a male, obviously, but he's also a very barge male. He played high school and football. He was six foot two, so he was a he was a big, big guy. And uh, you know, she, you know, reasonably enough, figured that if she roomed with him, she'd be pretty safe.
You also talk about that it's fascinating that since these murders are fresh and they're on people's minds and they have created such a panic among these college students, some of these college students have changed their mind. Their parents have said, come on back home, it's not worth it. But it was interesting if the father even implored her daughter to hang around Manny, stay by many be careful, and they talked about the murders. They did talk about
keeping her safe. They had joked about it, they had mentioned it, they had spoke about it. They had cautioned her. Then you talk about Manny getting home from bartending at about one five am, tell us what he does when he gets home and what she's doing, and tell us what happens shortly after at three am.
Yeah, that's one of the you know, one of the scary things about the case is that, you know Trees, he's on the phone talking to her, her family and talking to her friend, her good friend, and you know, they're all worried about the fact that these other bodies have been discovered there, and they're they're cautioning her, warning her to be careful. And you know, it turns out that when she's on the phone having this conversation, the killers outside watching her on the phone the whole time. So,
as you said, Manny had a job martending. I think it openigans there.
So he came home early in the morning one thirty ish and came into the apartment and checked on went in and checked on Tracy after he got him and basically told.
Her, Hey, I'm home, I'm really I'm beat, I'm tired, I'm going to bed and uh, and then went to bed.
Now you say that someone obviously Danny Rowling was was watching and you get this information with the incredible access that you have to information afterwards, what does Danny Rowling do? How does he? Again, do you imagine a couple of people aware that there's a threat, and this guy that's an offensive guard in football, he's six foot two hundred pounds. How does Danny rolling do what he does? Well, once he.
Gains access to the apartment, he enters in there and goes to to Manny's beggar first, and you know, he waits a while before before he enters the apartment to give him time to he sounds asleep. And then once he enters, he goes into Manny's apartment and stands over
him and take that. At night, he has one of these these large marine fighting knives are called cabar knives, and he takes one and takes that out, and while Manny's sleeping on his back, he plunges it straight down into into Manny's chest and from there Manny wakes up abruptly obviously and gasp, and there's a there's a there's a there's a struggle there for I was described as a really bloody, rough struggle that went on as as Manny fought for his life, but ultimately he was overcome,
you know, obviously caught caught by surprisal. He was sound asleep and he he was stabbed to death. Another very very bloody crime scene. And then while that was happening, Tracy, who had gone to bed as well, heard the commotion and peered at her door down the hall and saw the killer come out of Anny's room. And you know, she screamed and closed her door and locked the door and tried to get away, but he pursued down the hall and kicked in her door and attacked her.
Now, you say, that's very interesting too, that Tracy's friend Lisa, the next day couldn't reach her, and so she calls another friend called Tommy Carroll, and that's how their bodies were discovered at the gate where Gator Wood's apartment. Neither body been mutilated. But another fascinating part of this was that when he had gone there, there was a black bag and he ran to obviously alert police. What was an incredible strange thing that was seen by police after
he mentioned this bag? What tell us about the the bag?
This is an interesting back too, is this this bag that was mentioned that I believe it was the Gator Road apartments maintenance guy or you know, maintenance car care taker there at the apartment complex was the one that you know, opened the door. And when he opened up the door, he saw the bag was there laying there on the floor beside the body, this black bagage you mentioned. And the door was actually I believe it was unlocked when he did that, and so when he opened it,
he saw the body and the bag there. And the bag they closed the doorback after that because you know, obviously they saw this body there, so they kind of shocked and they closed the doorback and went to know the fight the police. And when the police did show up and go back into the apartment, the bag was gone.
Now what did that well, we'll just I don't know, jump ahead, but what did that indicate two police that compared to the other crime scenes, what had happened with this bag? What did that indicate was different from those other crime scenes.
They indicated that the killer was still inside the apartment when these individuals went there to check on Tracy and many there, the killer was still inside and was interrupted and whatever he was wanting to do at the time, he had the other the other difference there, you know, there was this black bag that was apparently seen. The other difference was that the body there weren't you displayed in any sort of manner like you had like the
other bodies to benet the other crimes scenes. So another indication that the killer had been interrupted and had to flee the scene before he had wanted to.
You talk about too, that the headlines in the newspapers now are lust killer toll now five and you're talking about the headlines. And they also talk about in the articles, hundreds leave the school. Change their mind, Like I say, parents, they get out of there. Now. This is five dead and three days. You also chronicle in the book too that the residents in this panic bought out the city supply dead bolt stun guns, mace, shotguns, rifles, baseball bats.
And this definitely, definitely absolutely changed everyone's attitude and behavior in this community, didn't it.
Yes, it was the mass panic and everyone and as she said, they cleaned out the local supply stores of all these sort of you know, defensive weapons and shotguns, baseball bats, all these sorts of things, stun guns, and there was a there was a mass accidents of students. Hundreds thousands of students left the University of Florida at the best of their parents, their worry parents, and you know, out of out of their own fear for their own safety as well.
Yes, absolutely, let's use this as an opportunity JT. To talk for a second about our sponsor, which is Audible. What would it look like if we all listened more? Listening to audiobooks motivates us, inspires us, even brings us closer together. There's no better place to listen than Audible because now Audible members can get even more exclusive Audible
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about the panic that was ensuing in Gainesville. How do police approach this and at the same time, where is Danny ruling well in.
Response to these multiple murders, and obviously they seem to be the work of the same killer, and there seems to be a serial killer on the loose there in Gainesville. The Gainesville police there they combined forces. They have the the Sheriff's office there musta county sheriff's office. They have the City of Gainesville police, and they also have the University of University of Florida police there and they also
brought in the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. So they combined forces with all these agencies to form a task force. They investigate these these five burners. Of these five teams, those students.
You also say, they even bring in profilers, and again the famous John Douglas and another one came named Jim Wright. They are very taken very seriously. These profiles emerged from this becomes a suspect and when John Douglas looks at them and Jim Wright, they think that this is a real good suspect based on some of the circumstances and
some of the background of this perpetrator. What happens with is Edward Humphrey, a nineteen year old part time student at the University of Florida, how does he become a prime suspect.
Well, during the investigation, the police had been interviewing residents at the different apartment comps where the where the murders took place, and as part of that, they spoke to some students there at Florida who told the police about a former roommate that they had and they described this roommate as acting very strangely and as having you know, voiced things against female like his ex girlfriend and things like this, and also apparently he had had some sort
of fixation on one of the victims on Terracy Paulis and he had lived at the Gatorwead apartments for some time. So the when the police learned this, this this person being shot up on the list of suspects and became their top suspect. And you know, you mentioned his name, Ed Humphrey. He was a nineteen year old time student
there at University of Florida. He was he was a big guy, over six feet tall and over two hundred pounds, and he had, you know, In researching him, they found out that he had had a number of encounters with various beliefs over over the years and recently as well, and they also discovered that he had a history of manic depression and a lot of strange behavior in the past. So he was certainly someone they were they were focused
in on. They they really thought he was going to be the guy that that had done her.
Right. Now, you take us in the book, though, at the same time, we're tuxtaposing back and forth from Danny Rowlings Danny Rowlings past, and you talk about the I guess, the progression and evolution of this guy as a criminal and then as a killer, a rapist and a killer.
Tell us about some of the background what happens to him there is, of course, when we get later in all kinds in the mitigatings portion of the sentencing, there's all kinds of stories come out about things that could be indicative of something attributed to this killing spree later on. But tell us a little bit about Danny rolling in his background that you're chronicle in the book.
Yeah. The way the narrative is presented, as you said, it goes back and forth. The chapters alternate between between between the prisoner who we meet at the very beginning of the book and partsment prison who as it turns out later it's Danny Rolling, and so we follow this this prisoner, how he ends up in Partsman prison, and then what happened after he gets out of parts From prison, and then we followed that thread all the way up through into the murders in Gainesville and then moved forward
from there. So he Danny Rowling, had a had a rough past. We talked about his time in parts From prison, and you know, obviously he did things to the merit being there, and as you said, he did have this this uh you know, escalating background of of of crimes that he occurred, and it all trades back to his
his family life. He had a he had a very domineering father figure, a very very rough figure, and according to to Danny Rolling, his father was abusive not just to Danny, but to his brother and to his mother as well. And there were a lot of incidences between fivether and son in the past and a lot of you know, degrading, humiliating, and you know, physically violent incidents between father and Danny Rolling, and those are all detailed
in the book. And that you know, this leads to a really violent confrontation with his father when he gets older, resulting in him having a gunfight with his father, uh and and he ends up shooting his father in their home. And you know, and also you know, in the in the the time periods meeting up to that as well, Danny Rolling as a as a teenager, he starts this
lifelong habit of peeping in windows. And he's introduced to this, apparently by a friend of his there when he's a teenager hearing in the window of a of a neighbor's house where the daughter is a cheerleader, you know, the local high school, and you know, seeing her undressing and things. And so this is something that Daniel only becomes essentially addicted to for the rest of his life and something
he does, you know, thereafter. And this this peeping and windows eventually graduates into breaking into homes and you know, of course there's some robbery, some theft involved in that, but it also escalates into rapes, you know, violent encounters with women in these places you would kind of spy on these women and then breaking their houses and rape
them and just escalated as well. And you know, eventually, as we see it would be ultimately the result of it is that the murders in Gainesville and you know, it turns out there was another murder scene before the Gamesville ones as well.
Let's talk about the Grissoms. Youngest was Sean. That's a Tom, and uh, she's there's three Julie, I believe. Tell us about the three Grissoms and the crime scene that police found there.
Yeah, so the gris Tom was the father fifty five, Sean was the boy, he was eight, and Julie was twenty four.
She was the daughter. So the three of them were found murdered at Tom Grissom's home where Julie was living with her father there, and then Sean was there for the weekend, staying with him, and the three of them were found murdered in nineteen eighty nine in Shreveport, Louisiana,
and it was another violent murder scene, stabbings. All three of them have been stabbed to death, and Julie had been you know, there were signs that Julie had been raped as well as being murdered, and you know, like these, like several of the scenes in Gainesville, Julie's body had been left a certain way, the killer had had staged her body a certain way, and it was just another
another really sad, violent murder site. And you know, it turns out that Rolling had been fired from a job the very day of the murders, the same day that the family was murdered, had been fired from a job
at a restaurant. In report, and you know, I don't know how far you want me to jump ahead, but you know, it turns out if you're looking into it too, Rolling, Danny Rolling had been you know, he ran at the same park that Julie ran at, and you know, would have could have bumped into her at various locations, you know, prior to this, and he wasn't than so you know, it wasn't it wasn't just a fure random sort of killing. He had obviously had contact with Julie and targeted her.
Now let's jump ahead to well, we have the funerals. You chronicle the funerals for the five people, and you say, earlier that morning police had spotted a man in camouflage pants near the third crime scene, and yet he got away, and they they sent police dogs, helicopters, they couldn't find them. Yet at the same time that they had that incident, very again movie esque, you say, the police are announcing that they're very close to an arrest, very close to an arrest of who.
Well, they thought their sights set on Ed Humphrey. You know, they were convinced this guy was their guy. And you know, also there was also another name that came up as someone that they were looking at as well, who had at his own violent history and apparently had attacked a woman with a knife or something. So they definitely had these suspects that were high up on the lists, you know, chief of which was Ed Humphrey.
You talk about July nineteen ninety, he goes to Tallahassee. Danny Rowland closed to Tallahassee again the place where Ted Bundy perpetrated his crimes, but he's using an alias called Michael Kennedy Junior. He checks into a travel lodge with this stolen idea ID hard me and tell us about this recording he makes to his family in Sarasota and then tell us about the content of that recording, what's in that? And then where does he go August twenty third, Yes.
So Rolling arrived in Tallahassee in mid June, and you know, coincidentally, this is where he purchases the murder weapon, the screen bar knife, and from there he goes to Sarah's the Sarasota area, and this is where while he's there staying at a at a motel there is where he's he
begins with this tape that you mentioned. You know, it's just one of these old tape recorders, audio tape recorders, and it's it's a message to his family and he's just you know, kind of letting to know his his thoughts, you know, kind of reflecting back and you know, the bad relationship they've had, father and son, and thoughts about his mother and things like this. And then he ends up continuing this tape recording after he gets to Gainesville.
He arrives in Gainesville in mid August around the eighteenth I believe it was arise by Greyhound in Gainesville, and first he checks into a hotel again, but after about about a week or so, he checks out of that hotel and ends up setting up a camp in a wooded area there in Gainesville, sets up a tent in a wooded area there, and the night he does that is when he continues this tape recording to his family.
And there's a lot of dominance statements in the tape recording to his family and especially the end of it, he mentioned that he has he has something he has to do and he has to sign off because he has something he has has to do, and that's when the tike stops. And you know, turns out that from there is when he started the first events that led to the first murder. In a game of.
Book, mm hmm, you say too. On the tape, there's a whole lot of singing going on too. He writes his own songs, and so he's singing quite a few songs on the tape as well. You write in the book again, this is eerie. We mentioned that Gemini right in the opening of this and right in the opening of your book. We talk about the Gemini, the demon, the the voice that he was embodied him, I guess. And but interestingly enough, I'm a fan of this movie
like a lot of people. Exorcist three. You say that in this, in this campground that he has, he he that he's staying at just previous to this incredible murder spree, he goes to the theater to see Extorsist three. Extissist three, as you write, the movie features a decapitation and a killer possessed by a demon. What's that demon's name in that movie, and what is rolling astrological sign.
Jim and I is the demon's name, and that's also rolling sign. So you know, coincidence or it was the influenced by the film the make up this Gemini story, you know, That's that's the question that lingers out there. But he, you know, he obviously he insists that it was just pure coincidence that he was at the hitter there and saw them that Jim and I was the
name there this this demon. But uh, you know, getting back to that opening of the book and this this encounter with Gemini demonic force there, there certainly seems to be some sort of connection there.
Talk about too, that he has a gun. We mentioned that he talks about later that night, you write about that later that night he was caught by a security guard peeping into another window, but he gets away. August twenty seventh, he robs a bank with a gun and he tells again, you capture this, and he says, there better not be any die packs, And of course there's
die packs and they explode. But the more interesting thing is that a police officer sees two men walk into the woods, one white man, one black man, I guess thinks it's kind of odd, and he calls for backup. And what do they find at this campsite, even though again Danny Rowling is able to escape. What do they find at this campsite?
Yeah, so this is August twenty seventh, and it's the same date the Crystal Hoyt's body is discovered. Is when they rolling robs this bank there in Gamesville. It's the first Union Bank, and he uses a gun as part of the robbery, as you said, and the exploding ink in the in the bag of money as he's running away, you know, the ink explodes. And then the next the next day there is when the police, who are you know, investigating the are aware of the robbery, the bank robbery
in the area. And when they come upon this these two men, this white male and this black male that you know, they do him, you know, stop basically, and the black male stops, but the white male takes off running and he runs into the woods swooded area nearby, and the police chase him into there and they end up coming across the campsite there, links campsite, and they're at the campsite, they find quite a few things. They find the the bag of money, you know, they ink
stained money. They find a ski mask used in the robbery, and they find a gun as well, among some other things. And this is also where they find the the tape recording. Actually also they find the tape recorder with the tape there, but they don't they don't ever listen to it apparently until quite quite some time later.
Now, the thing is, he's he's an elusive guy and he has a lot of luck. Later he attributes that to again to the demon. But where does he go next? Because again, police are still not on his trail, are they fully now?
They yeah, they're still they're still after Ed Humphrey, who you know, has since been arrested in Bavard County in Florida for assault and his grandmother and so he's in custody and facing charges for that. But they still, you know, they still like him for the murders of the five students. So Rowling's not even on their radar at this point. They don't have any idea that Rolling, this guy Rolling could potentially be the one that committed the murders. So
they're still after Humphrey. They still think he's their guy. And meanwhile, rolling is you know, from Gainesville. He robs this bank and then he goes from Gainesville, he goes to Tampa, commits some home invasions there, stealing things the
rob's a grocery store there and some other things. Steals a car while he's there, and then ends up in O'calla, Florida, and rob's a winn Dixie grocery store there in O'calla, And just so happens that when when he does that, but there's police nearby there, and you know, they're able to respond pretty quickly, and so a chase and sues, a car chase and sues until he crashes his car again kind of kind of moves like a movie scene
like you mentioned before. You know, you have his car chase and crashes the car and then Lease has been been arrested. But again so they take him into custody. They arrest him for the robbery again having no idea that he's you know, connected to these murders that are you know, so so dominating the efforts of the police and in Gamesville.
And then yet this is another incredible part of this story is that Humphreys now is just destroyed in the media when investigators leak information and the media runs with the allegations and he's destroyed. Meanwhile, you say that they contact Anne Rule and her incredible experience with Ted Bundy and being this preminent premier of a true crime writer and investigator, former former police officer. She was asked whether Humphreys was their man. What did she say.
I'm trying to remember exactly what she said. I don't recall exactly. Might have to help me out there a little bit, but she didn't.
Think She didn't think he fitted. She said that he wasn't sophisticated enough. She said definitely that the case resembled Bundy was addicted to murder, but she said he was too young and she didn't think so not sophisticated enough. Because I guess she's.
Being comment too as well, because it's it's an observation or conclusion that some other folks that looked at the case got too that it just didn't seem like Humphrey, you know, had the ability to pull these kind of ryme's off and be able to get away with it like this killer had. You know, even though that even though the crime scenes were very bloody, you know, and
messy in that sort of way. They were also very clean in another sort of way, and that there wasn't any real evidence left behind for you know, investigators to make a case with. So you know, these these people like you mentioned Ann Rule and then some of these other outside folks that looked at it, you know, didn't think that that Humphrey would be able to do this sort of thing because he was so disorganized as an individual, you know, due to his you know, his history of
mental illness among other things. So, yeah, it was an interesting observation.
You put in. You read in September nineteen ninety rolling Please Guilty darm robbery at the Winn Dixie and he pleads for leniency, but he gets a life sentence with the habitual felony offenders. So while in custody makes statements about the Gainesville killer and things like they'll never catch him. Then you also write on January, well, January February ninety one tip from Shreveport resident Cindy Dobbin, who had met him. She said fifteen years earlier at the United Pentecostal Church.
What did she tell them? And what did she tell them? And then regarding the Grissom murders, and her experience with this man fifteen years earlier.
Well, she called in to suggests that they take a hard look at Danny Rowling as a suspect and the murders based on her asked experience with him. And you know, at the time, I don't believe that they gave it the priority that you know, ultimately it narrated unfortunately.
So how is it they come to take a look at Danny Rolling because you right, Mastery that basically the police, no matter what, even when they find a connection with the Grissom murders, with the other five murders, that they'd still think comphies involve somehow. Tell us how this progresses to the point where finally Danny Rowling is identified.
Well, there's ultimately there's some communications between the street for police and the Gainesville investigators there, and some of the detectives from Gainesville go up to Shreveport to you know, talk to the investigators there and you know read the case file and kind of see the similarities in the prize and there's certainly some some real similarities there that raised some red flags that these are potentially committed by
the same guy. And you know, meantime, Danny Rowlings in jail from the robbery sentence, and so the Gainesville police start considering him as a as a possible suspect as well,
and they're able to get DNA samples from him. He gets a tooth taken out while he's there in jail, and they're able to get a hold of the you know, the the bloody gods and stuff that's left over from that procedure and use it to the test of DNA, and ultimately that DNA comes back as a match for I believe it was the Anne Larson, No, I think
it was. Maybe it was the Crystal Hoye ended up matching one of the bodies that ended up matching scene there, so they certainly had revidence pointing at Rolling by that point.
It's very interesting too, because this story, I mean, we're not going to have enough time to go into this because it's such an involved, wild story. Once they have him in custody, there emerges an inmate again. It's amazing about American justice is how many people want to come forward once they're in prison and turn informant. There's a
Robert Bobby Lewis, former death row. Now he's doing a life sentence and Sondra London just tell us about Sondra London and Bobby Lewis and what these two people we're thinking of doing and planning to do.
Well.
Yeah, Bobby Lewis, as he said, he was an inmate there and he heard about Danny Rolling, and you know, he ended up working the same floor area in the prison where Danny was being held, and so he went out of his way to introduce himself and meet Danny
Rolling and struck up a friendship with him. Danny was apparently impressed that Bobby Lewis had at one time escaped from death row walked out of the prison broad daylight by impersonating one of the guards there, essentially, and so that really impressed Danny, and so they struck up this friendship and Danny started revealing details about some of the
crimes that had been committed to Bobby Lewis. And so Bobby Lewis reached out to Saundra London, who he knew from for because she is a true crime writer and she had you know, I've been working on some books with some of the inmates there, including Bobby Lewis, and so he reached out to her and started telling her about his contact with Danny Rolling, and that eventually led
to Bobby Lewis talking to investigators about the crimes. And you know, kind of the one of the odd things about it is Danny Rowling seems to know the whole time that Bobby Lewis is sharing this information, but keeps giving him the information anyway, and then ultimately uses Bobby as his mouthpiece to confess to the killings the game's will killing.
The controversy is though, that Sondra London becomes involved much more than would say a typical journalist would have get involved in writing a story. Tell us what the controversy he is regarding her.
Yeah, Sondra becomes romantically involved with Danny and she starts, she agrees to work with him on writing his story. And so you know, they're gonna they're gonna write the story about Danny Rowling and murders and everything, and you know,
make money off of this. And you know, meanwhile, Danny also he's also kind of this artist and he makes these sketches and drawings and things in addition to being a songwriter, and so he's sending her these things as well, and she's you know, selling these artworks to people who like to collect those sort of things and making money off of the hat. And she enters into these book deals and interview deals with these different media outlets and things, and he's making money off of this as well, to
be like the exclusive source of Dannie Rowling's story. So, as you said it starts, it's a big controversy and the fact that you know she's trying to profit off these crimes. He's trying to profit basically off these crimes, and so it's a whole nother threat of the story.
Really, he goes to trial. Obviously, this is a death penalty case, and that's why we have this. We can say right now it takes sixteen years to get to for Jeb Bush to sign an order for the death warrant sixteen years later, and we could talk about the trial as well, just when he goes to trial. You know what I thought was incredible, and you write in a book, is that when we got to that sentencing, the forces that want this person put to death and then of course the forces that don't believe in the
death penalty at all. I found it again even more over the top than normal. Considering the crime scene photos that the jurors would have to see. And yet everybody in that including the jurors, got to see the blown up photos of the crime scenes blocked out for the more gruesome parts. But just I couldn't imagine the family and everyone having to endure those kinds of photos just to be able to try to put this person to death, which took forever.
Yeah, it was a lengthy process, as the definitely cases tend to be. You know, the interesting thing in the case here is that, you know, the day of jury selection, you know, the prosecution and defense were all geared up, building their caps up over months and months and months and getting ready for what they anticipated would be a long trial that's a determined guilt. But on the first
day of trial, there a jury selection. The first day of jury selection, Danny informed the judge he wanted to lead guilty, and you know, it's stunned everybody except for the judge and the state attorney who had learned this, you know, several days before. But everyone else in the court was stunned because they all expected this long, involved, grueling trial. But but Dani ended up leading guilty to it in kind of this dramatic sort of fashion, and you know, his statement is in the book about why
he does that and everything as well. But so from there the guilt has been established and the rest of the trial is just devoted to, you know, whether the death penalty should be imposed, and ultimately it is after you know, testimony from a lot of psychological experts about why Danny did what he did and his capacity to understand it and all these sorts of things, and that's
all detailed as well in the book. But he does end up ultimately receiving the dust penalty and uh, you know, as you said, years and years years years later, the sentence is finally carried out, that the jeth warrant is signed by the governor who is debush at the time, and in the sentencing date or the execution date this was scheduled.
There was talk of people being suspicious of the pleaf the guilty plea at the last minute. What was some people's idea the motivation for him doing that.
Well, he claimed that it was to spare the families and the victims from having to endure hearing the customery, seeing the photos of their off ones and all these kinds of things. But you know, other people think that he was doing it out of completely out of self interest, that he wanted to try to avoid the death penalty, and that's the whole reason why he went ahead and played guilty, is to try to avoid getting a death center.
In this. It was interesting too, when you have these death penalty cases that there really does come out, at least, whether it's part fiction or completely true. There is the background from the mothers and the fathers and the brothers that come and try to say things to war off to avoid basically the death penalty, even though it seems hopeless.
What were the kinds of things that they said. I found it very, very fascinating that it came out that an incident that James, his father had witnessed when he was a child. Tell us about that incident that came out basically at this the penalty phase of this trial, there was.
A lot of family history and the rolling family there of mental illness and Danny's father, James, he had his own mental illness issues and when he was younger he had witnessed his grandmother. I believe it was his grandmother that killed his grandfather if I have, If I recall correctly, you know, we were at the at the Kidsten table.
So this is something that that James had witnessed when he was younger, and so this had obviously impacted James uh and and something that that got passed along, you know, and you know, he kind of was the father visiting the sins of his father, so to speak. On on Danny Rolling eventually as well. So so the family had had this history of mental illness. Other members of the family had these sort of mental issues as well, So
that all came out during the trial. And one of the really interesting things also, I thought was Danny's Dannie Rowlings explanation as to, you know, ultimately why he had stopped killing when he did. You know, he killed the five in Gainesville and then stopped, you know, right, he could have kept going because nobody had any idea who
he was at the time, but he stopped. In the explanation he gave for this later was that he had, you know, in this kind of demonic sort of contract he entered into with this Gemini Force that he had agreed that he was going to you know, extract his
vengeance and make it equivalent to what he had endured it. So, since he was imprisoned for eight years of his life, he was going to murder eight victims, and so he killed the five in Gainesville and then you know, as it turns out, he had you know, killed the three Grissom family members as well, So for these eight victims in total.
Yeah, not to say that this guy is a good guy in any conceivable way. But shortly before his execution, rolling sent to Shriekport Reverend Mike Hudspith, he shipped him, sent him a letter or slipped him a letter pardon me, confessing to the three Grissom murders of nineteen eighty nine. That was very interesting.
I thought, Yeah, it's another another one of these kind of cinematic kind of events in this in the story that you know, the Grissom murders when they when they happened. Of course, you know that the police back then had had a suspect in mind. They had DUI's you know, ex ex boyfriend at their top suspect, and kind of like there's a similar parallel there with Ed Humphrey. How Ed Humphrey was kind of dragged through the media, yeah,
to the public and his reputation damaged and things. The same thing with Julie's ex ex boyfriend who was he went through the same thing, you know, for those murders, and he actually came to the execution, was was outside with the crowd that was gathered there, you know, the pro and the against, and you know, it was was all this time hoping that Rolling would finally confess to
the killings. And as you said, you know, he learned afterward that that Rolling had sent a letter and to this this reverend there set War had given him a letter when he met with them, and then after the execution the letter was revealed, and then the letter Rolling confessed to the killing the three Gristoms as well. So really a lot of really interesting threads with this story. Uh, there's a lot of a lot of subplots kind of going on all the same time.
Yes, absolutely, it's also interesting did you take us to take the reader right into the execution itself? And fascinating when they ask him if he wants to say anything and he breaks into a song just before the chemicals throw flow through his veins. Very very fascinating. A remarkable book. JT. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about a monster of all time, the true story of Danny Rowling.
The Gainesville Ripper has been fascinating. Thank you, JT. For those that might want to just check out your other work, you have a Facebook page or website, let us know.
Yeah, there's the publishers RJ. Parker Publishing, and there's a there's a website RJ. Parker Publishing dot com. And you know, all the books, all my books are available on Amazon dot com. Easiest way, it's just the plugin JT. Hunter, and the books should pop up, including the latest one, A Monster of All Time.
Yes, thank you very much, JT. Hope to talk to you again real soon. It's been a pleasure.
Good night, Thanks Dan. It's always fun to talk.
Thank you.
Enjoyed it. Take care,