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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them.
Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good Evening. From the outside looking in, Jennifer Pan seemed like a model daughter living a perfect life, the ideal child, the one her immigrant parents saw, was studying to become a pharmacist at the University of Toronto. But there was a dark, deceptive side to the angelic young woman. In reality, Jennifer spent her days in the arms of her high school sweetheart Daniel. In an attempt to lead the life
she dreamed of. She would do almost anything, lie about her whereabouts, forge school documents, and invent fake jobs in a fictitious apartment. For many years she led this double life, but when her father discovered her web of lies, his ultimatum was severe, and so too was her revenge, a plan that culminated in cold blooded murder, and it almost work,
except for one bad shot. The story of Jennifer Pan is one of an all consuming love and devious betrayal that led to a cold hearted plan hatched by a group of youths who thought that he could pull off the perfect crime. The book that we were featuring this evening is a Dead Daughter's Deadly the Jennifer Pans Story with my special guest journalist and author Jeremy Grimaldi. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Jeremy Grimaldi.
Yeah, it's nice to be here.
Dan, Thank you very much. Congratulations on a very very interesting story. One of my favorite questions, and I'm always curious, tell us and tell our audience how you came to be this author, why this story was important to you, How you came to this story, A Daughter's Deadly Deception.
I'm a I'm a big faith fatalist. Well, I guess fatalist is the right word. I'm a big believer in fate, and fate brought me to this story. I became a crime reporter and years after the murder was committed and the trial started. Four years after the murder was committed, and I happened to be the crime reporter in Markham where it occurred. When it began, I was the go
to reporter. Turned out, it was at a time when a lot of newspapers were cutting back on staff, so I became the sort of one and only to cover the entire trial. It was a ten month trial, and by the end it was so fascinating and so layered that I had really no choice but to write it. It was an important story that had to be told.
Certainly now just before we start, because I know there's a lot of confusion, even for me born in Ontario. So tell us where Markham is and in relation to Toronto, where our international audience, our American audience will know more of than obviously Markham. Tell us what Markham is and where it is in relation to Toronto.
Sure, Markham was once a small town, and it slowly as Toronto grew into a metropolitan city, grew out and out. It became a suburb. And you know, it was once white Anglo Saxon, a farming community, but slowly it became it became a suburban, a suburban town with a growing Chinese population. And at this point it's about about half the city of about three hundred and fifty thousand people are are now Asian. I believe that actually half the city is of Chinese origin, and many of them come
from a municipality in Toronto called Scarborough. It's a sort of a lower socioeconomic municipality and a lot of the people who do well in Scarborough. I mean immigrants since the fifties have landed in Scarborough. That's where people get their start because of the cheap housing. And when those residents do well, a lot of them Chinese, they move north. And just north of Scarborough is Markham. I'm Jennifer. Pan's family was a typical example of this.
Now, the main characters in this story, the Pan family, and you talk about the fifty seven year old hand Pan and his wife Bika and Pan and they've been together thirty years. And you set this right away. You set with the action and bring the audience in when they are woken from a deep sleep and Hand the father meets a man with a baseball bat in his cap pulled down basically out of his down on his eyes.
So and he's out of bed demanding money. So take us to this scene that you bring us to in the book, and what is happening in the Pan home. Maybe before we start that, tell us just a little bit about the Pan family and where they are. You show some photos in there that sets up the scene where this is an affluent part of town anyway, in this suburb, and what Handpan wakes up to in his home November eighth, twenty ten.
Okay, so I'll just I'll start off briefly by explaining how they came to be here there. The Pans are Chinese of Chinese origin who came to Canada Vietnam after the Vietnamese War. They landed and as I was saying from the top, they came to Scarborough, managed to purchase a home and worked at a car parts manufacturer called Magna for twenty five years. And both of them worked
their fingers to the bone. They were waking up at five o'clock in the morning and working the whole day through working overtime, and eventually it saved enough money to move up to Markham and buy a suburban home, four bedroom home on a very nice street in a place called Unionville, which is the historic part of Markham. Excuse me. And life in the suburban neighborhood was was Although it may have seemed positive, it seemed to be negative for Jennifer,
and we'll we get into that later. But Hann again woke up at five o'clock in the morning for his job. He was a tool and die maker, so he would be in bed by ten nine. Sometimes he went to bed that night he turned in early and woke up, and you mentioned a baseball that was actually a gun. He was laying in his bed and a gun was shoved in his face, and a voice came out of
the darkness and said, where's the effing money. Hann was then awoken from his slumber, turned around without his glasses on, and marched down the stairs with a gun at the back of his head. When he reached the bottom of the stairs, he saw another man holding a gun to the head of his wife. And he was out on the couch beside his wife. And it's the first thing his wife asked him in Cantonese, said to him, how did they get in? And he responded, I don't know.
I was sleeping. Afterwards, they were berated and and beaten briefly, and but but but most of all they were they were repeatedly asked for the money, which handpan kept replying, we don't have any money. All I have is sixty dollars that's upstairs in my in my jean pockets. They ended up getting that money to one of one of the burglars called to the other and he ended up
getting that money. They were then marched to the bottom of the stairs into the basement, and a blanket was put over Handpan's head and beck Ha's head and hand Pan sat patiently and allowed the blanket to be put over his head. He was then shot twice in the face and the shoulder at point blank range, and he slumped and fell to the floor. His wife wouldn't allow the blanket to be to be put on her head. She was panicking. She kept calling out to her daughter, Jennifer, please,
you can hurt us, but don't hurt our daughter. The men had no time for this, so without a blanket on her head, the men put the guns up to the back of her skull and fired again point blank range, putting two bullets through her brain, and she died.
Now you talk about what happens next, where the nine one one call. That's crucial in this entire story. You've mentioned Jennifer, their daughter, Their son, Felix is in Hamilton at school. I believe he's in Hamilton anyways, not at home. Jennifer is there. Tell us by the time you talk about these gunshots, what is happening at the same time regarding Jennifer.
Okay, So after beck is shot, she slumps falls to the floor and the men leave the home. There's three of them. Jennifer, then, who's on the top floor bound her wrists are bound against the against the banister, bound behind her back, manages to call nine one one with a cell phone that's been tucked into her yoga pants. She calls nine one one and and while she's talking to the operator screaming, help, help, We've just been robbed.
And I heard pops. You hear in the background of the nine to one one call her father with this sort of blood curdling scream and moan rising from the basement. He's just just awoken from his I don't know what you'd call it, I guess, after being shot in the face to find his wife dead. And he's then rising from this and coming up and immediately bolts out of the house while his daughter is yelling down, Dad, I'm here, please, Dad.
Hand runs out the door, and the Jennifer's left on the phone talking to the nine to one one call operator, who's who has police there within minutes.
Now you talk about Handpan collapsing in his neighbor, right in front of his neighbor, Peter Cheng and so right on the scene is Constable Mike Stesco, and in broken English, the hand somehow incredibly communicates there was a robbery and intruders shot his wife and left his daughter inside. So tell us what Mike Stesco, Carnival Constable Mason Baines, and the people right at the scene do and find at the scene, sure.
Hand, excuse me. Hann manages to convey the message that his wife had been shot and he had been shot. Because the bullet wound was not visible, he had blood streaming from his face, but the police officers couldn't really see how the blood or where the blood was coming from. So he motioned with his hands, forming a gun and pointing to his head. So the police officers armed themselves and their backs hit the wall of the home and they creep inside the home, not knowing who's inside the
house or outside. Two of the officers go downstairs and find Bick laying on the floor with a towel partially over her face and a large pool of blood gathering around her head. I believe they described the blood as sort of a bluish red and very thick when they when they approached her, one of the officers described her skin while the other officer took her pulse. He was describing her skin as as already gray and blue her legs, so he knew that she had already the life had
left her. Another officer, who was a rookie he was just new in the country, originally from Scotland, was told to go upstairs and find the daughter who was screaming, Jennifer. So he went upstairs and talked to Jennifer. As he was rising from the stairs, he holstered his gun, thinking that the men had gone because the home looked perfectly still and all they could hear was Jennifer's screams. When he hollered up to her, are they gone? Are they gone?
She answered, oddly enough, answered I don't know. I just heard footsteps. So he again pulled out his pistol as he slowly walked up their sideways and found her. He then cleared the three bedrooms that he saw the four bedroom excuse me, and proceeded to get a pair of scissors from Jennifer's a nightstand, which she advised him of
to cut the rope that was binding her. She was hysterical, uninconsolable, and the eternal Gentleman placed his jacket around her shoulders and led her outside while hand was being put into a stretcher, screaming, still trying to trying to gather his mind around what had just occurred. She said to him as he was being loaded into the ambulance, Daddy, are you okay? That was the last thing he heard after being rushed to hospital.
You say he was a rookie, but even that rookie noticed the way she was tied to that banister. Tell us what he did observe, not making any conclusions, but just what he did observe about her being tied to that banister.
He called it Copenhagen's mermaid. Now, if you can imagine a mermaid, the way they may sit on the on their tail. So she was sitting on her on the bottom of her feet, but sort of to the side, so her her legs were straddling her rear end, which was touching the ground. Her arms were bound behind her to the banister, and she she I believe, really did well at showing him that she was totally and utterly distraught and distrusted, screaming and yelling and hysterical about what had just occurred.
Now, the description she gives to the police is what at that time, what does she say? How good a look does she get? Tell us what she says to police in terms of the three perpetrators, she claims were in the home.
So when she's when she's asked were they men, she says, I think. So when she's asked what color their skin was, she said black, I think. And when she described them, she does a very poor job saying anything other than they were wearing hoodies and they had the guns. There was nothing she described to the operators that would allow them to get any hints or clues as to as to who who had perpetrated this heinous crime.
Now you talk about four hours later, this hand pen is clinging to life and Jennifer is interviewed by Detective Randy Slade, and he's a veteran of the homicide unit. Two hour interview, and he tells her that the sworn video statement is not accusatory, but it's a guarantee that she tells the truth, and points out at that time the penalty for lying being fourteen years. What does he observe in terms of her reaction to the statements he makes again, he does make conclusions. What does he observed.
Sure, it's important to realize that at this point Jennifer was very much the victim and as far as anyone knew she was, she had been home and was the last surviving victim of a of a perfectly random home invasion in which two people were shot in the head, one of them died. So as you can imagine any sort of inkling that that Randy Slade notes to her that this is she's accusing her, or that he's he's sort of implying that she may be involved, he sort
of apologizes for because he can. He can he can really sympathize with what she was going for through so he makes it very clear that she is not a suspect, she's not a person of interest, She is the victim and and really handled her with kid gloves through throughout the first interview.
Now, how far did they go in terms of this interview in that two hours of doing anything in terms of confiscating or looking at or warrant for contents of her cell phone.
Nothing. This is if you can imagine Markham as a place that's so peaceful that there were fourteen home invasions the year before this kind of crime in Canada just does not occur. And in those home invasions, people are not assaulted, and people are not bound up, and they're certainly not shot or wounded. Usually it's a monetary thing.
So for police, who had at this point absolutely no clues in such a peaceful place, they were really mystified by the crime, mostly because in their experience, random crimes don't happen percent of the time a crime is targeted. This on its face appeared to be perfectly random. But if you ask any detective, they'll know and they'll explain to you that crimes aren't random. Men don't drive down a street looking for the biggest house usually and then
just waltz in with guns demanding money. Usually there's a tip or some information, or they know the person, or they know that there's a safe in the basement. So for police, they were I would say the accurate term is bewildered, and certainly didn't want to lay blame at Jennifer's feet.
Now, they didn't want to lay blame, but they did assess the crime scene and in terms of motive for this particularly gruesome murder, what was the likelihood of that this motive was robbery? And what didn't they steal, including Alexis and a Mercedes.
Sure, so, when when you're a detective, from what the detectives working on the case told me, you have to work with the facts. So it may seem bizarre to them that someone just broke in and shot two people and stole a bit of money, But they can't then jump to conclusions and say, well, this seems like an inside job. They have to work with what they've got. So when they enter in the home, they noticed that handpans, bed has been completely ramshackled by the intruders. They noticed
that has purse has been rifled through. They also noticed that Jennifer had lost two thousand dollars to the men, So initially they believed that this was the robbery. Now, particularly inquisitive detectives would have noticed, as you said, that there was still money in bick Hau's purse, not much, but certainly twenty forty sixty dollars. The TV was still there, the electronics were still there. Two cars, including a Mercedes and a Benz were still in the driveway in the garage.
Excuse me. So there were hints that something was awry, but far be it from a detective to make accusations based on mere hints.
Same time, what they do is their due diligence, and they have a technique, and they have techniques in terms of further interviews and to look for inconsistencies, to look for again reaction, but mostly inconsistencies, and if they can get any more information by a further interview. So there isn't, as you right later, there is no DNA evidence, there is no weapons found, there is no bloody clothing found. So how to police proceed and tell us about the next interview?
So what police get? What police have the beginning scares them, I believe, and they put on They put forty officers on the case because they realize that they have very little. As you said, there is no there is no DNA, there is no weapon, there is no bloody clothes, there are no footprints. There happens to be footage from across the street, video surveillance footage of a car driving up, parking and then driving away, but it's so dark and
so poor that it shows very little else. So what they put out as a result of Jennifer's first interview, in which she, by the way, calls the intruders refers to them as gentlemen at one point, which is another odd sort of happening. So they get that three black male intruders entered into the home. One of them had dreads and was short and stocky, another was tall with an oval face, and a third seemed to have a Caribbean accent of some sort, but the face his face
was never seen. They also saw that it was a late model silver Accura with tinted windows, similar to a Civic. So this is what really all they have to go on. And then there are these puzzling details like the two cars are still there, and there's still money there, and there's expensive camera equipment, and there was a safe that was never broken into. So when the second interview comes around, the detectives explain to Randy that he needs to be
more forceful with Jennifer because there were some inconsistencies. Now, one of the main inconsistencies. Now your sharp listeners will see will may may think, how did she call the police nine to one one with her cell phone when her hands were bound behind her back. So in the second interview, Randy Slade asks her, gives her a phone, a dummy phone, and says, show me how you called the police with your hands bound behind your back, And this is when you start seeing Jennifer. I don't, I
don't want to say fall apart. But her behavior becomes very erratic, and she becomes she starts cracking her knuckles and pacing and becomes very nervous, and she binds her hand behind hands behind her back with imaginary string and seems to pull the phone out of her yoga pants and and somehow fashions out of that a call that she could have made, So she says, she dials the number and puts it on speakerphone and turns up the volume and talks to the operator in that way. But
it's still questionable, I guess you could say. And there are there are other inconsistencies. They had interviewed her ex boyfriend and he had told her about a number of lies that Jennifer had told her parents in a bed to continue to see him, and the detective uses that as a way to sort of unsettle Jennifer to the point where she starts, she really starts suffering under the
glare of the detective's attention. But again I have to accentuate that all of this odd behavior and all of these questions that were raised around her on that night are nothing more than that questions. And detectives need hard evidence to lay charges or to make someone a suspect, and at this point they had no evidence.
Now, meanwhile, what is the status of Handpan. The doctor induced a coma, he was he was in serious condition, So what does the family do? Is there a vigil at the hospital, and what is Jennifer's behavior like? At that hospital?
She sees a psychiatrist and is put on a drug similar to lerazapam. I can't remember exactly what it was called, which dulls her senses and allows her to calm down, and she continues to take that throughout. There is no vigil held. The doctors put him in a coma, and really, I can't accentuate enough that his survival is really miraculous.
The bullet that was shot through his face ended up going down through his neck and missing his cartoid artery by millimeters, and if it had to hit the cartoid artery, he would be dead. Instead, the bullet got lodged in his neck and he was unable to speak when he was when he was revived from the coma. But other than that he was he was in pretty good shape.
Are police anxious to talk to him in case he knows something about this case? How how crucial of a witness do they think hand Pan, now that he recovers can.
Be really is as crucial as anyone He is the because he is the lynchpin. By this point, not only police, but the family, the extended family with whom Jennifer is staying, have started to become a bit suspicious about her behavior, and police, through Jennifer's ex boyfriend Daniel Wong, find out that she had two cell phones. So the cell phone that they had already claimed from her and were searching
through was just one. There was a second cell phone and that was found on her desk, and the police managed to convince her to sign a wave reform for them to look through this phone. This was an iPhone and the other phone was a sort of a Samsung flip phone. And it was a very difficult position for Jennifer to be in because the family of hand Pan, his brothers and sisters, were starting to become suspicious and started questioning Jennifer as to why.
She was.
Not telling police everything. At one point, she apparently said to her cousin that they didn't shoot me because they liked me. And at another point she actually refused to go see the police under the guise of organizing her mother's funeral, and the family didn't like that.
Can you talk about the mother's funeral.
Yes, The detective showed up to the mother's funeral, and what they saw is quite unnerving. The story I tell in the book involves them sitting at the back row and Jennifer up at the front of the temple sort of sobbing into her fists. The way it was described was that Jennifer was rubbing her eyes with her fists and sort of blubbering, I guess you could say, and continually looking up at the detectives to see if they were looking at her. But the one thing that they
noticed was there were no tears. Now this is confirmed by Jennifer's piano teacher, who was also at the funeral, and it was confirmed separately, independently of one another. She said the exact same thing, that Jennifer was crying and sobbing, but there were no tears.
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Blue Apron dot com slash murder. Get your first three meals free with free shipping by going to blue Apron dot com slash murder. Blue Apron a better way to cook. When we last left off, Jeremy, you were speaking about how their web of lies from Jennifer and the case is closing in on young Jennifer and some the family members suspect her her odd behavior at her mother's funeral. Tell us what happens next in this case.
So the family are holding vigil around Handpan's bed as he as the machines sort of beep around him, and the doctor enters. Jennifer is there and she doesn't leave his bedside, and when the doctor enters, he's got good news and he says to the family hand Pen is going to survive and we are going to bring him out of his coma and he will survive with all his cognitive functions, and everyone is overjoyed hugging and and there's loud chatter around, but there's one voice that comes
through and asks the doctor a question. Jennifer says, but doctor, what if there's an infection? And the doctor says, there won't be an infection. We've dealt with this. Excuse me now. What happens next is possibly one of the most fascinating details. Jennifer immediately stands up and asks her everyone in the room if they have fifty cents for the payphone, and
people find this odd. One of her uncles offers his phone to her, and she says, no, I need to use the payphone, and they say, well, what about your phone? Then she says, my phone is dead. So one of the uncles gives her fifty cents and she goes out in the hallway and calls her ex boyfriend and the police. The family would eventually tell the police and they would search the phones and find out the call she places. Now the call went to call uh, went to voicemail.
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The assumption became that she was calling her boyfriend to warn him that her father was about to survive, and if he did survive, their plan was in peril.
Now you talk about he introduced the character Detective Sergeant Larry Wilson. He's a major case manager, day to day tactical and he has along with him his Detective Bill Cordis, and now he's been part of eighty murder investigations and lead on five of these. And another person, the number three on this team is Detective Alan Cook, and Cook and Cortese work together. Now there's no police consensus, like you say, and they have to follow the evidence as
it unfolds. But this Alan Cook, he thinks this is an inside job, doesn't he?
Yeah, he thought that the entire time from the get go, because, as I mentioned before, in his view, nothing is random. There's always a reason. But because after a particularly brutal case involving York Regional Police and a man by the name of Gee Paul Moran, who was wrongfully accused and
convicted of a young girl's murder. Police forces across Canada began creating new ways of doing things, So it was it's a triangle, and as you mentioned, there was three detectives, and the three detectives are there to ensure that they are not going on assumptions, because when you act on assumptions, you can often assumptions reinf force assumptions, and when you do that, it can lead to blinders being put on
the investigation. And when that happens, often there can be wrongful, wrongful convictions or wrongful charges, and that not only hurts the police force, it hurts the justice system and can lead to a case going unsolved. So the three officers are there to ensure that they're following the facts, not police assumptions.
You talk about. Just a couple of days later, though, November tenth, Daniel Wong comes to mark them police for his interview and he's accompanied by his girlfriend and Katrina Villaneuva. Now this Daniel is twenty five. You say, he is really respectful and willing to engage, but this group of police officers's get some information from him regarding Jennifer. That's
very very interesting. Tell us what they find out from Daniel Wong about Jennifer and her family and the relationship and how the family feels about that.
Sure, this is really where police start saying, all right, we need to we need to shift our focus Daniel Wong, as I mentioned earlier, he tells them about a second cell phone, which they then go and search for. But he also tells them about a life that is very far from the sort of boring, normal life that Jennifer says her family leads. He tells them about about large amounts of cash within the family. He tells them about
how he's a drug. He tells them about how the family, the parents Hann and Bick, ended up ruining Jennifer and Daniel's relationship. He also tells them about countless lies that Jennifer's told throughout her life, including faking transcripts, faking an
entire university career that lasted eight years. He tells them that at the end of when Jennifer was caught in all her lies, hand locked her in the house for a year and a half and made her quit all her jobs and locked her in the house because he didn't trust her anymore, and he thought that Daniel was
the source of these lies. Now, when police start quot questioning him about whether, you know, maybe the robbery was payback for his drug dealing activities, he starts to push back and starts to lead them down a path of what he thinks might be the reason for the murders, and he starts telling them about these odd crank calls he was getting one hundred of nights sometimes where the caller would would leave cryptic messages and say very morose things including ha ha bang bang bang, I'm going to
get you things like this on his cell phone on his email, and he would get these messages. Jennifer would get these messages, and Jennifer's sort of Daniel's new girlfriend, also got these messages. He also told them about Jennifer being gang raped by five Asian men, a story that she had told him, and the police then starts saying, Wow, this is very, very different from the girl who had made herself out to be a little angel, and we need to start refocusing.
It's interesting. The detective Mulligan asks casually asked Daniel how much it would cost to just take somebody out and what was his answer.
That is very interesting. They Mulligan does does a masterful job during this interrogation where he essentially sort of buddies up to Daniel and starts talking to him about drug dealing and isn't in the underworld, which is very minor. By the way, he was selling dimebags and making you know, not even hundreds a week. I would say he was
just selling to friends and acquaintances. Anyways, by the end of the interview they had built up a bit of a relationship and at one point Mulligan asked him, so, let's say you wanted to off somebody, you wanted to get rid of somebody, how much would that cost in the street, And Daniel astoundingly says ten thousand dollars. You could have somebody killed for ten thousand dollars.
Yeah, very interesting. Now the police en Slade believed that now that Daniel has been spoken into that likely Jennifer is going to try to contact Daniel to see what he has said and what was said. How do they proceed with this idea that this like will happen.
So when they call Jennifer in again, they have a lot more information and they're able to sort of twist and turn Jennifer through all sorts of hoops trying to see what she's going to lie about. But you can imagine how unsettling it would be for detectives to find out how much deception this young girl was involved in, faking transcript faking a university career for eight years of her life, which she had, by the way, never attended university.
She hadn't even graduated high school, but her parents were under the impression that she had graduated from university and was planning on going to work as a pharmacist, which was Hand's dream for her. Now, so they use this to get Jennifer to talk herself into circles, and it works to a certain degree. However, again it's it's not cold hard evidence. This is uh. This is again a strange behavior and some some questionable answers by a young woman.
But soon enough hand Pan will be awoken from his coma and that's when some some some some facts start coming out.
Now they do get her to explain now that they have this information, that she never bothered to impart to them the reality of this idyllic family. But really the nine o'clock curfew, she talks about and so it looks like again, it looks like a good reason to be resentful. So when she provides all this information that Daniel had already provided and she confirmed some of that, what is her answer to the likelihood of there being some resentment
and maybe then a possibility of a retaliation. What does she say to that? So she.
Sort of dodges the question multiple times in which Slade asks her, was there any resentment for your parents locking you down in your home and ruining your relationship? And she doesn't answer the question, And it's really fascinating to watch, and you can watch the interrogation videos on YouTube. I
posted them on there. And when she says, essentially, I love my parents and I would do anything to stay with them, And she tells the story of how her father gave her an ultimatum at one point in which he said, either you go with Daniel and we never talk again, or you stay home with us, and she decides to stay home with the family and to never talk to Daniel again. But that's of course not what she does. But that's the question that Slade keeps pounding,
was there any resentment? And she continually responds, no, I love my parents, and I would do anything for them, and that's all I have to say. Now, He at one point confronts her and says to her, was this so this wasn't all just a plot you cooked up to get your parents out of the way? And she sort of puts her hand on her chest and with big doll eyes and says to him, oh, my god, no, I would never do that, and he believes her.
Now, you profound part of this book is this. Hann tells his family doesn't really want to see his daughter, but she manages to go to his bedside. He doesn't confront her per se, but he what does he ask her regarding Daniel and what's her response?
He says to her, was Daniel involved in this? And she says, I'm not one hundred percent, but I don't think so. Now, bearing in mind, Hanne hates Daniel and has always thought that it was him, his influence that has caused his daughter's life to go off the rails. Now, I also should mention that she was a very high and figure skater, and she was basically a piano prodigy and a straight A student in grade school. But when she got to high school, the lies began and her
grades fell off. That's when she started manufacturing fake report cards. So he basically equates all her poor behavior with Daniel, but she denies it, and she makes it to his bedside, and she's sort of trying to manipulate him to tell the police what she wants him to tell them, which is that she had no involvement.
Now you're write in November twenty second, and now we're talking just a few weeks after the murder. Another police interview, new interrogator, Detective Bill Gates, and with a dramatic shift in interview style. He's a season interrogator and polygraph expert, so he's human lie detector, as he calls himself. Yeah, now what's his approach? You say, he spends a couple hours gaining her trust, But what's this dramatic shift and what does he get from her in this dramatic shift?
What does she admit to and who does she admit to?
So this is something something called the read technique, and this is a very controversial police technique that is used. Now I'll just reference this film because I'm sure many
of your listeners have seen it. It's the Netflix show in which Dacy is questioned by detectives the making of a murderer, and he is The read technique basically involved a detective entering a room with a preconceived notion, so basically walking into the room saying to this person without saying it at the beginning that basically, I know you've done this, so just admit it. It's controversial because of
what happened in Brendan Darcy's case. People who have a lower intellect may go along with police assertions, or younger people may go along with police assertions because they want to make the person happy. So if they were actually innocent, they can be caught telling lies to the interrogator, basically implicating themselves in the murder, even though they may not
have been involved, because the interrogator keeps accusing them. So essentially, Bill Gates which is his name, sits down with her and starts off very unsympathetic reads or her rights reads or her rights, asks her her name, and says to her, tell me your life story. So Jennifer begins regaling him with multiple hours of interesting details about her life, what she's done, her relationship with Daniel, her relationship with her parents, all the way through her childhood, and so he's gaining
her trust. Now at the drop of a hat, about two hours into the interview, it shifts, so he then goes from the happy go lucky detective befriending her to the accusatory detective. So he tries to justify the crime to her psychologically, sort of saying that this is not your fault. Jennifer. Your parents were abusing you by locking you in the house. They were abusing you by having such high expectations of you. They were abusing you by wanting you to become a pharmacist when all you wanted
to become was a piano teacher. And Jennifer basically goes introverted. She begins to put her hands over her ear, she puts her head between her legs, and Bill Gates just keeps talking, talking, talking, Now Jennifer is in a chair with no wheels in a corner, and Bill Gates is in a chair with wheels, and slowly he goes from and you'll see this in the interrogation video that's again on YouTube. He goes from one side of the room
and slowly creeps up on her. And it's part of the retechnique to basically be bearing down, bearing down on the person, so make them feel as if they're a cornered animal, a caged animal, and they're being cornered, and slowly but surely, he they're in this large interrogation room, and you when you're watching the surveillance images of them. He gets closer and closer to the point where he's basically on top of her and continually saying, I know
you did this. It's not your fault. Just explain why did you do this? Now, you didn't shoot them, that's a good thing, So just explain to me what happened, and will you know, sort this out? Me and you are going to sort it out together. And after four hours, Jennifer starts to crack and she says, first inaudibly, something you can't hear, and then she says it again when he prompts her, and she says, what happens to me?
And then he basically goes in for the kill. This is She approaches the cliff and then jumps off it. He thinks he's going to get a confession, and she throws him a curveball. She says to him that she had tried to commit suicide multiple times, she had cut herself as youngster, and she had mental health issues and when she tried to kill herself she failed, So she had essentially hired men to come in her house and kill her to assassinate herself.
As what she said, Yeah, incredible with this as well, he does get some other information from her because he knows she's guilty. Obviously, does get some information about other people in terms of phone calls. So what information does he get from that interview other than he knows absolutely that this woman did it, but he has this curveball to contend with. But what else does he get in terms of other suspects?
So she implicates men who turned out to be one man who ripped her off in an original murder plot which didn't go through, and she implicates him as Homeboy. Now, I don't know if your listeners will know the movie
Reservoir Dogs. I'm sure many will. Now. In Reservoir Dogs, you'll remember that the main characters had names like mister Pink and mister Brown and mister Blue, and the purpose of this was to hide their identity from one another, so that if any of them were caught, the police wouldn't be able to extricate someone ratting on someone else, and Jennifer had something similar. So she had one of her cohorts named quote unquote Homeboy, was totally unknown to her.
So she was communicating with this person over so phone talk to him just a few times, but mostly it was texting, and she was texting back and forth with this man, and it arranged a plot for men to come in and kill her, but instead of coming in and killing her, they came in and killed their parents. So what's found out from this is that there was a man named Homeboy and they got the first three numbers of his phone number, and that there was a plot.
But the plot that she was alleging was far different than the plot that the police were imagining in their mind.
They get a break in terms of phone communication through one company and from that they get, you say, a treasure trove of text messages and phone call information. Who's this company that they get this big gift from and what do they discover in terms of the treasure trove of information.
So by now police have managed to take Jennifer's other phone, which was an iPhone, from her bedroom and found that she had received a number of calls in the lead up to the murder. Now, when they opened the phone,
they found that the SIM card was missing. She had called the police from her other phone, her Samsung phone, So they found the iPhone, but the SIM card was missing, and York Regional Police have a data extrication expert who managed to find the text message and the records of who called and when from the iPhone itself, which was found, but again the SIM card was never found. She had made calls in the lead up to the murder with
the SIM card, but then the SIM card disappeared. So the assumption is that she thought, if I get rid of the SIM card, police won't be able to find who was calling me and who I was calling, and that proved to be a very major error by Jennifer. Now with that, with that information, the police had the numbers who had called her. The problem with that was that each phone that had called her was one of
these burner cells. Now burners, it's a street word used to describe phone that can be purchased prepaid phones that are purchased under They can be purchased under false names, false addresses. They can be used and then tossed. Basically, now all the phones that had called her or most
of them were fictitious names, so police were stock. However, one of the one or more of the phones belonged to this company called tell Us, which is one of the three major cellular networks in Canada, and tell Us saves text messages, so although they didn't know who owned the phones, they were able to find what the text messages contained. So a lot of the text message to Jennifer and the text messages out from Jennifer, and the text messages amongst all the co conspirators were discovered.
Now you get this again, this incredible break. Like you say that tell Us has these text messages recorded for a certain period of time. So piece by piece, like you say, brick by brick, step by step, they bump into people that have something to say, and they talked to Ricardo Duncan, whose nickname is Rick. He comes in for an interview. What does he have to say about Jennifer and what do they learn? Which is very very interesting to them.
So Rick tells them he's one of the calls to this phone. Now think the Crown the prosecutor would later describe the iPhone as quote unquote the murder phone. So she had her Samsung phone which was for legit calls, and then she had the murderphone where she would coordinate and talk to all the co conspirators. Rick, whose other street name was Reaper, told the police that had won.
Jennifer had called him and they had met and she had given him twelve hundred dollars to kill her father and her mother, but he had told her no and and left it at that, and he said the money to be used for a night out. He borrowed the money.
Now there's another man that they hear from the phone calls that there's another person named Kimball that was in the car. Tell us how they find out that again piece by piece, and then they talk about Eric Cardy. So how do they How does that all lead to Lenford? Crawford? How does this all? How does the police manage to tie all these people together and get to them?
This is this is this is possibly the most amazing thing about this case. And you know, I'm no huge support of the police where I go around bigging, bigging
them up, but I'm this was really amazing. So essentially, the police take the six phone calls to Jennifer's phone, and some of them are Burners, so they don't know who owns the phone, but they get they get the phone, the phone numbers, and they go through the phone numbers, uh all the text messages which are saved from that phone, and they find a number of people that have been texted texted by the same person who was texting Jennifer.
And they interview hundreds and hundreds of people and eventually find someone who identifies the person who was using the phone. Now, when they look further, they can see that some of the calls from that phone are going to about fifteen other phones that were possibly being used by another co conspirator. So the other co conspirator wasn't was a very bright, street smart young man, and he was using about ten Burner phones that he had on him and a number
of his girlfriend's phones. Now he had about fifteen different girls that he was with and he was using all their phones. So let me just break that down. There were more than a million bits of information, so phone numbers, calls, and text messages. Only the text messages from the telesphones again one of the three big cellular companies here were saved.
So basically they were just finding this phone, this phone number, called this phone number at this time, and they created a huge web of phone numbers calling other phone numbers and found through that over numerous months, found that there were five co conspirators. And they pieced together all the text messages and calls in the days leading up to the murder and the days following the murder and could found applausible story to describe what these people were doing.
Now, to just make matters worse for Jennifer, what happens with when they bring her in and finally arrest her, What is her reaction and before we talk about all the other subsequent arrests, what is her reaction to that?
So she, by the way, after she makes that confession, the police arrest her and charge her with conspiracy conspiracy to commit murder, and she's put in jail. And the public when they find this out that this girl is not the victim but actually the perpetrator, some people are surprised and some people are not that surprised, but the police are lauded for their their effort in finding finding
this out. Now she's in jail and police start wire tapping the phones of Daniel, her ex boyfriend, and some of these burner cell phones that they've found contacting Jennifer. Now when she goes to jail, the concern is how are these guys going to get their money? So what happens is the perpetrators end up going to Daniel's house and threatening him with guns, saying we need our money.
So what happens to facilitate their arrests after this incident with Daniel.
It's many months, but they essentially are caught out talking to one another. But there's one man, that one man that was never caught uh and and police police this this bright man that I was talking about earlier, the bright criminal. His name is Kimball. His street name is Kimball. And police can't nail this guy down because he has so many aliases, they're all code names. No one knows him by his real name and uh and he has so many Burner cell phones and so many girlfriends that
they can't actually locate him. But eventually they find a man in the database. This is the Canadian wide database with the name with the nickname Kimball. So police when they're when they're working, find out people's street names and put it in this database, and eventually the database comes up with a Kimball, and turns out that Kimball's already wanted for murder, and he is eventually arrested, and Lenford Crawford,
who was homeboy, was arrested. David mill Wagnum, who was the man who called Jennifer and the lead up to the murder, he was arrested, and Daniel Wong was arrested. They were all charged with murder. And again there's one man who remains, the one man who remains free and uncharged, and he was actually the shooter.
We believe. Now we don't have time to go into them. The other half of this is incredible story. But you talk about Crown attorneys Jennifer hala Jan and Michael Rumble, just the incredible amount of evidence that the police were able to present to them, and you go through the opening statements of course, and it's interesting too, and I like that you put that when we talk about all these jurors that they had to go through that in
this case. Was this trial a very very lengthy trial was set for five months, eventually was ten months, and all the media attention on this, but you know, the lowly jurors have to see crime scene photos and listen to this incredible testimony. For the eleven after the eleventh of forty ninth day, they get forty dollars a day, and after the fiftieth day, one hundred dollars per day,
or it'll pardon me eleven weeks to forty nine what. Anyway, what I found very interesting is the paltry sum you give people to serve on a jury and do what many of us, most of us are not prepared to.
Do for sure. And I've spoken to many of the jurors and the case is really totally changed their lives. And I know, I was just speaking to one of the jurors the other day. He had called me out for coffee to discuss the case, and he was discussing how it's changed his life and how he thinks about the men caught up in this crime every day. He was the foreman who actually had to read out the verdict and tried to stare at them all in the eyes while he did it, but they all looked ahead.
But that emotion about sending these guys down to prison for twenty five years, which is life in Canada. And they all have had young children, they all had lovers and mothers and wives and girlfriends and Jennifer. You know, a lot of them were Jennifer. You know a lot of people called her evil and called her a monster and so on. But a lot of the people caught up in the crime were often described as normal, happy,
go lucky people who made a very bad decision. Now, these were the organizers, including Daniel and Lenford, who's a homeboy. They organized the hit, and there were three men that entered the home and actually committed the violence. No one had any misgivings about putting them in jail. But the men who organized the hit and got twenty five years, they all had had had children and jobs, and we're you know, quote unquote normal people. And he said he still thinks about them on a daily basis.
The really haunting part of the book is when the trial opens and the crown opens with a nine to one one call with hands hand pans horrific groaning with a nine to one one call in the background, and you also, through an interpreter, you talk about the incredible testimony of hand Pan and it's difficult, and he doesn't
look at his daughter. So for those that will wind up reading this book, they will get to see a trial that again, it looks like it's a slam dunk, but it takes ten months, so there are problems and difficulties and some incredible stuff that goes on, including what Jennifer does and doesn't do at this trial. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about a deadly A Daughter's Deadly Deception. For those people
that might want to find out more. You talked about the YouTube links for to find out more information in the videos that you posted. Do you have a Facebook page and do you have a website for people that might want to follow up on after this interview?
Yes, I have. The Facebook page is A Daughter's Deadly Deception. The YouTube page is Jeremy Grimaldi that you can see all the interrogation Jennifer's interrogation videos, and my email is Jeremy Underscore Grimaldi at yahoo dot ca. And I'm really trying to engage with the reader on this one, this story. I've been immersed in this story for two years of my life and it had a profound impact on me as a person and as an author and as a journalist.
And the perhaps the most the most bizarre thing from it all is that I still don't know if I know Jennifer. She's such a fascinating character, and her story is really stranger than fiction, And I know that's thrown around a lot, but this one is really odd and so layered and so as you can tell from our conversation, so much going on. We've literally just broken the surface of the story. So I'm hoping people get in touch with me and and tell me their thoughts on on
on the book. And you know, there's there's question whether she was a sociopath or a narcissist, or or or just a master manipulator and mastermind. But so I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.
Well, I just say it's an incredible story. I mean, we've covered a few of these cases on True Murder before, but every one of them sends a you know, a shock through your spine because it's it's so close to home when you when you read the like you say, the deadly deception that Jennifer Pan does with her loving parents, and and nobody ever can see the rationale for the murder,
regardless of the treatment. Certainly she had an odd treatment at home, but nobody can really sympathize with Jennifer Pan after hearing all these details of the murders, I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about a daughter's deadly deception. Thank you very much. Jeremy hope to hear from you again soon. Thank you for this incredible book, in this interview, and you have a great evening.
Thank you, Dan, Yeah you too, thank you.
Good night, good night,