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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good Evening, Ron Crisp invites the reader to follow him through his investigation of the Leslie Barry murder, the trial of Art and Zuris for the murder, the evidence that led him to his three suspects, how his investigation of the Barry murder led him to the defense of Angelo Bono in the Hillside strangler case, and what happened in his personal life as a result of his attempts to expose the systemic cover up in California versus Angelo Bono.
The single most important clue in the case came from the statement of a fourteen year old boy on the night of the Bury murder. Crisp wasn't at the crime scene that night, but would read the statement in police reports a week and a half later when he read it, he was astonished that the police seemed to be showing no interest in this remarkable sixteen word statement from a
friend of the victim. The cops ignoring evidence that could help crack a case that had baffled them for eighteen months caused Crisp to wonder if they were so stupid they couldn't connect these two simple dots, or if something more sinister was going on. A dozen books or more have been written about the Hillside Strangler case. Taking a q from the books, screenwriters have used the case in movies and TV cop shows to lend an air of
credibility to their fictitious storylines. However, these movies and cop shows have kept the myth alive that Kenneth Bianchi and Angelo Bono were the Hillside Stranglers. Author Ron Crisp reduced the statement by the fourteen year old boy to four words and made it the title of his book. The book we featuring this evening is a Crossing of Paths, the true untold story of the Hillside Strangler Case, with
my special guest, Private eye and author Ron Crisp. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Ron Crisp, thank you for having me. Dan, thank you very much. Very incredible assertions and contention that you have in this book regarding the Hillside Stranglers.
Well, you opened the book.
Absolutely. You opened this book in South Pasadena, California. It's a little place about twenty five thousand, you write it lies between Pasadena and Los Angeles in Los Angeles County. You had a business Crisp and Marley you call a legal research and inquiry, and you had some dealings with a Mitch Millino. Tell us a little bit about this work that you were doing in South Pasadena and your experience with Mitch Millino and the call that came that
one day from Mitch Millino. What was the gist of what Mitch Millino had to say and what was he talking about specifically that day.
Yeah, Well, my office was at the Old Green Hotel in Pasadena, and I've done a lot of work for probably i don't know, twenty five maybe thirty regular lawyers and overall probably a couple of hundred lawyers around Los Angeles, and Mitch was one of those lawyers. He calls me one day and he wants to know if I've ever handled any criminal cases. I told him I've done a
few drug cases, but nothing. Really. Why was he asking, he said, law He wanted to know if I had heard about the murder of the twelve year old girl in South Pasadena. I said, well, I heard about it over the weekend. Yeah, I was at a party and the host hostess mentioned it and said maybe it was the hillside train of the case. I just thought it
was paranoia. Anyway, Mitch says, well, I just got a call from the father of the apartment manager at the complex where she was murdered, and he says his son is a suspect and he wants to hire me, retain my services to represent him. And so, uh, Mitch said, you know, I kind of told him, well, you know, I just wrapped up an interesting case where I found
a horse. And Mitch went on to brag about, uh, some guy that he got off for assaulting a police officer over in Glendia, and so we we we changed stories there for a little bit, and then he said, well, here's what I'm going to do. I'm gonna charge him an extra one thousand dollars on the retainer and and that that's that's the money that I will delegate to you, and I said that, yeah, that's fine. So anyway, about a week and a half later, I get a call
from Mitch saying that Art has been arrested. And but Mitchell told me it, told me he wanted me to start a discrete investigation. But you know, there's no such thing as a discrete investigation. When you're talking about a murder case, you know everybody's going to talk about it. So you know you can't go around asking questions unless you want to tip the other side off that you know that you're concerned they're going to make an arrest. So they did. They had called Art and told him
to come down from one last interview. He had already given him two very very lengthy interviews, like I think the first one was fourteen hours, the second one was something like sixteen hours. They kept him under the lights and grilled, and so they had called him for one last interview, and we'd already told him Mitch and told him, I told him, don't talk to the police anymore. They're
not looking at anybody but you. You're the I don't know why you're the prime suspect, but you're the prime suspect, so don't talk to the police. But they called him and he said, well, I have a lawyer. He told the police, well, I have a lawyer. But h and wanted to know if he should bring the lawyer with him, and he was talking to Beck and Beck says, well, this is a deputy Beck. He says, well, you can bring your lawyer if you want. You certainly have the right
to do that. You we readue your rights. You signed the Miranda card, so you can bring a lawyer if you want. But you know, we're just going to ask you a few simple questions, you know, just a few follow up questions. Uh, you know, uh uh. And so Arte said, okay, we'll come down. So someone his wife went down there, and they not more than two minutes ended the interview. They put him under arrest for the murder of Leslie Berry.
Right now, you talk about the police, By the time you got involved in Mitch got involved, he had already, like you say, judiced himself to two interviews with police.
And also in those interviews there was reason the reason why Art was accused was he was, along with his wife, the apartment manager of these two buildings four hundred Monterey Road and four four hundred and six Monterey Road, and also they discovered that there was that obviously Leslie and the family, Denise and Art and his family knew Leslie.
Leslie had also babysat for the family, and according to Art, he had was one of the last people, if not the last person to see Leslie alive, according to the police timeline. In further questioning Art again, I guess if he had a more guilty mindset, he would have always and then kept his mouth shut. But he was forthcoming and talked about what he said was innocent contact with Leslie, like touching her butting breasts and joking that she needed
a bra and patting her butt. But he said he did this in front of his wife, and his wife laughed and there was nothing to it. So you can understand why the police, at least without having any evidence, without having the scene, this crime scene examined yet by forensics, that they thought they had Kushner and Beck thought they had a great suspect in Art and Zuris.
I'm not correct, Yeah, yeah, that's right. And Art did a lot of He's what you know, most of us would think, which was pretty bizarre behavior. You know, like like going back while the cops were there investigating the crime scene. He went inside, uh the apartment and they had to chase him off, and then uh before he was arrested. Uh, him and his wife went back, opened the open the user path, He opened the apartment, and
they went in and got a photograph. It was just a regular you know, school photograph that she'd promised to give him, uh before she was murdered. And uh, so you know, they did stuff like that. You know, the cops said, you can't go back, and that's a crime scene. You can't go back into a crime scene. And so but he did it. And you know, all of this behavior kind of brought attention to him as a suspect.
The crime itself. You'd take us back in your investigation that there was a certain timeline that the police subscribed to. There was a Leslie was home that day. Her mother knew. She had asked to stay home because she said she was sick. Her mother knew she wasn't sick, but let her stay home anyway. One of the conditions was that she was supposed to do some laundry and she got a call around four point thirty from her mother and saying,
did you get that laundry done? And she said, well, no, because Art using the dryer as well, she used as an excuse, but she just hadn't remembered, and she'd been on the phone with her friend Sean Hagen, her best friend in the world, and then at some point her friend Lisa Balatore called. Right now in terms of Art and zus he saw her that day because as you write, the laundry room is next door, in the close proximity to the manager's office where he is in number two.
He looked inside and saw that Leslie was putting washing and close in the washer. Now, he tried to joke with her, but he saw she was in a bad mood and he saw that as well, I'm not going to talk to her. And there's another laundry at four oh six, so he knew he could take his clothes there and not get in her way, according to him. So now, according to the mother, she called at four point thirty. The mother was supposed to be back at
five o'clock. So she said, I'll be back shortly after five, meaning she would normally come home about five ten, and she did. Right now, now, tell us what the mother a investigation.
As part of my investigation, I also drove from where a few works to her house and timed it, and it turned out to be about seven minutes a seven minute drive from where she worked, right, And the timeline was extremely important and that's why we were establishing.
Now in that timeline, there was the phone call from Lisa Bellatori. Now you talk about this, and this is a very vivid scene in this book. She's talking to her friend. She has to call in the bedroom because the phone is in the bedroom and from the bedroom can't see the front Yeah, and she's so she can't see from her mother's bedroom the front door of the apartment. But she's expecting her mother home. Now she's talking to Lisa when she's probably supposed to be doing something else
like the laundry, and doesn't realize the time. So what happens in that phone call when she's talking to Lisa Bellatori? What what is she? What happens around say five o'clock during this phone call?
Yeah, yeah, it's about well h as close as we could figure out, uh, based upon Lisa Valatori's statement, and I also asked her her her dad run Bellati, who was a swim coach at U C l A. I asked him if if if I could see the phone bill for that that month, so I could have some physical evidence, some physical idea about you know, Lisa's memory and stuff. And so, uh, she said that she had remembered when she talked to Leslie by ah By a telephone call she had had with her mother who lived
down San Diego. Well, that's a long distance call, so it's going to show up on the on the phone bill, right, So so they provided me with the phone bill, and yeah, I could see there was there was actually two phone calls that I guess she had forgotten about one of them. But the last phone call was the one she was referring to in establishing her memory. And the phone call was that something like uh four forty five or something something of that nature, four forty six, something like that,
and it was like a three minute phone call. And so we established that the timeline of that phone call between her and Leslie Berry had to have been you know, close to about uh five minutes to five. And of course this also was corroborated by by the babysitter who was trying to get her off the phone to get take her to So, yeah, the timeline on that end is pretty firmed up. You talk about it, Yeah, go ahead, sorry.
You talk about Ana Barry. Her mother coming home out around five ten, and she goes to the carport and she opens the door and assumes for some reason this is odd, but she assumes her daughter because everything's dark in the apartment. She assumes her her daughter must be sleeping. Well that's very soon after this phone call, but she must be sleeping or in the laundry room. But her mother doesn't go inside the apartment per se. She just
goes to get the mail. So she goes to get the mail, comes back.
She actually did go inside the apartment. She put her she put her keys on her first on the kitchen table, and then she left the apartment. She didn't check on her daughter. There wasn't anything unusual going on that she noticed. Girls she would have probably you know, responded to her,
reacted to it. So she goes to the front of the apartment building and gets gets her mail, which was right across from the laundry room by the way, And then when she comes back, that's when she she as soon as she opened the front door, she realized that the door to her daughter's bedroom, which you could see that was a straight shot from the front door to the to Leslie's bedroom was a straight shot, so you
could see that. And she noticed that the door was open about I don't know, fourteen fifteen sixteen inches something like that, and that it was totally dark in the room and that except for the flickering light of the TV set, and the TV set was up. Really, so she went in there, went went to her daughter's bedroom immediately and and pushed the pushed on the door. She
was just going to tell her to turn the TV down. Uh, and the door hit something and she realized that it was the body and the body of her daughter.
Yeah, you're right, that she was still warm. The mother went right on the ground and start performing CPR on her. Uh. There was no response initially with a couple of minutes of doing that, so she called nine one one. She continued the CPR till the paramedics arrived about three minutes later, so they were there pretty quick. What she did notice right away, the mother was, Uh, this electrical cord. We what we didn't mention There was electrical cord around Leslie's neck.
The mother. It was super tight. She couldn't get it off. She ran and got scissors and cut the the electrical court off first to pardon me, this is what she did in this panic. She still had this state of mind to be able to do this and did the CPR, and then they took her to the hospital and she was still alive.
Now, well her body was warm anyway.
Yes, well she's still alive. As you write that there isn't this isn't a homicide investigation till later. So initially she's still alive. So as we know, now, as you find out that the crime scene was compromised by medical paramedics and by South Pasadena police officers. So there's medical rappers and there is people that brought things into the scene, into the crime scene and out. And then you also write that the surrounding area was not contained and cordoned off,
so a compromised crime scene initially. So now when you looked at when you finally got to look at the crime scene yourself, what are the kind of things that you noticed and you theorized about. Because Kushner, Detective Kushner felt that that art or a pardon me, not art, well, they felt it was art but that the killer was still in the apartment when the mother came home, when Ainta Barry came home, that he was still in the apartment, and so that while she went to get the mail.
If they kept with this assumption, then he only had one particular route that he could go. Tell us a little bit about what you found and what you thought and what you found at that crime scene with your partner, Mark Sutherland.
Yeah, it was really it was really kind of strange because Leslie's apartment, the Portcure apartment, kind of straddled a tunnel that led into the carpoard area and went underneath the apartment building and into the carport area, and there were steps that were led down there. So the only way that the killer could get out of the bedroom or out of the apartment without being detected, and nobody saw anybody go in or come out of that apartment.
So the only way that he could avoid the mother coming back from the from the mailbox was to jump over the fORCH and into the stairwell, which was a hell of an athletic move. So you know, you know, right off the bat, this guy knows number one something about the apartment complex, because the escape had to be instantaneous, right, so you know you knew something about the apartment complex and that the guy was very athletic, because that was
a very athletic jump, uh to escape. And but yeah, the interesting thing is that that Dave Kushner and and I came up with the same scenario based upon the fact uh, independent of each other. We didn't we we hadn't discussed until much until much later. But yes, that the time frame, the escape route, everything was just just very fast, very instantaneous.
You also observed some small red spots and streaks downward in this and again affording the theory that someone must have jumped. Let's talk about the go ahead.
No, yeah, I was going to say that on the on the wall of the stairwell leading into the tunnel was a spot mark. Sottlan noticed that. He's the one that found that. And it was obviously a blood spot. It was red, and it streaked down downward and it was on the far I guess you'd call it the north wall of the of the sharewell. So somebody's jumping over into the stairwell from that angle would hit that wall with his arm, and that's her hands and that's
probably what caused the blood spot. And I might note here that when they were when when Beck and Kershner work interrogating Art, they did ask him they saw they noticed a cut on his or scratch on his right right knuckle her hand, and so they did ask him about that. So I know that they that they had seen that spot. They didn't do anything with it, but they had seen that spot.
Tell us about again. Something that you found very profound in all of this was the Sean Hagen makes an interesting statement.
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Tell us what a statement?
Oh yeah, well yeah, can you tell.
Us about that statement?
Yeah, there was a statement that I got on the night Art was arrested at from Sean Haagen that he thought it was the Hillside Strainer case because he knew one of the Hillside Stringer victims. Well, the statement didn't say which Hillside Stranger victim he knew. It didn't give any more details than that. But that was a pretty powerful statement because it established a solid link between leslie Bury and you know, at the time we didn't know, but one of the Hillside Stringer victims.
Now you're referring to Dolores Sepeda. And the connection was that they all went to school together at one time. A Leslie and Dolores and so, and I guess and I guess Sean Hagen as well. So they all went They all had that commonality of going to school together. Can't you say that.
All private school? Right? Yeah, there was a small private Stuth Pasadena, and Leslie hadn't gone there for long, uh, I guess it was some time after her mom and dad got divorced. She was going there. And of course
none of this was in the police report. I got this from talking to Larry Paulin, who was Sean Hagen's stepfather, and he was as big a as much of a witness to the link between Leslie berry And and Dalli Sepaida as Sean Hagan was really because he's the one that picked him up from the school bought him home. And this was also confirmed by Mississipia when I talked to her. So there was a solid, solid link between
Leslie berry And and Dolores Sepeda. And one of point out that the Lord of Peeda was the youngest of the hillside string or victims that she was twelve years old, Lesli very when she was murdered, when she was kidnapped, and Leslie Barry was twelve years old when she was murdered a year later, and it was exactly to the day that she was murdered. Yeah, Leslie Berry was murdered to the day that they found Dollar Paida's body.
Very interesting too when somebody said, well, why with the signature being that the hillside stranglers would dump a body down a ravine in public, and your wife astuteley mentioned, well, he didn't have time to do what he wanted to do with the body with the mother coming home, or so that he didn't have the time to be able to demonstrate the same signature by leaving a body out in the open on the hillside.
Yeah, we just don't We just don't know what the killer intended, the killer of lester Bury intended to do because the crime was interrupted by the mother coming home.
So yeah, now you you write interestingly this dynamic that you have with this Beck and Kushner, these police officers that seem to have their mind up and arts is in there in there as a target for them, a prime suspect. You were given progressively more access to records, given arrest records, autopsy, crime scene photos. And what was interesting when you had a meeting with Sutherland and yourself and Melino and Beck and Kushner was that, Uh, Millino
said a statement to Kushner regarding informants. And I thought this was interesting, considering what does happen? Tell us what that statement was?
Yeah, it was actually to Beck. Kushner was Kuscher was a senior, the senior detective on the case. But you know, it was like Beck was the one. You know, it was kind of strange because Kushner should have been the primary. Uh, but but you know, I just had the feeling that Beck was the one that was driving this whole thing. And so we were down to the Sheriff's department, laughed and arrested Art and and Kushners has gone to get us copies of all the statements and stuff that they
had up until that time, all the initial stuff. And so Beck is kind of leaning back in his chair and Mitch and Mark and myself were standing there next to his desk, and Mitch's I hope you're not planning on putting a whole bunch of snitches in my on my client and Beck just I mean, he shot so many poison arrows with his eyes, wasn't funny. I mean he was really upset about Mitch's statement.
Yeah, incredible. When we mentioned too, Dolly Sapita, you mentioned he was twelve years old and her friend Sonya Johnson, disappeared fourteen together. They were shopping at this Eagle Rock plaza. So you say, this is a Highland park, it's very close. And this led to this fear in this whole general area that there was another Hillside strangler murders in this area. So the whole place had everybody, all the women taking self defense classes, all kinds of handguns, guns were being
sold out in stores. There was, not to be underestimated, an incredible climate of fear for women and husbands and family members of women in this area at that time, after two years of the horror or the fear instilled by the Hillside stranglers and their mercy.
Yeah, yeah, it was. It was, uh, you know, the panic, the public panic was just incredible the longer the investigation went on. And of course, you know, the media doesn't help any because they anytime there's a victim that's found that's been strangled, that they try to link it to the to the you know, the highest profile case around and that was the Hillside strangler case. So you know, if you're watching the news, it just seems like every
day they find another body. You know. Of course the police for the task force was trying to hold the body count down to quell public panics, but you know, they were fighting against the media that just wanted to drive the body count up as far as it could.
You write about another Hillside strangler victim potential or what was regarded as Christina Weckler incredibly was also found on November twentieth, nineteen seventy seven.
And the interesting thing about the Christina Wecker and why I included her in the connections, was because she went to the Art Center School of Design, which was up like on top of the hillside, overlooking Pasadena, overlooking the World bull And uh, when I came on my suspect, one of their previous addresses was up would have been on on the route between where Christina Weckler lived in Glendale and where she went to school, So the chances of and also uh, where her body was found on
Wallona Street. That that that that was between the arts the arts center and her home. So and it was very close to where uh my suspect, my eventual suspects had lived at one point.
Now, well this goes on. There's the we fast forward a little bit. There's the preliminary hearing for Art to see if there's enough evidence to proceed to trial. That lasted less than a week, and more jail health snitches emerge, and I guess that you you right that the judge sent the message to the prosecution that there was a
weakness in their case because there's no physical evidence. There's really not much that they don't have much of a case except for apparently this confession from Art and Zura's So tell us a little bit more about this jail health snitch development.
Yeah, well, the stitch is descended on him. The ninety was put in prison. One of them, I forget now which one it was, but one of them had approached him with a Bible and told him that the confession was good for the soul and blah blah blah. And you know so uh Art says he never made those statements. I mean he just slid out and nighted and the people that were in the jail cell with him. There were two two guys. It was a this is a four person cell, and so there was two other guys
in the cell with him besides this the snitch. And both of the films said that Art did not make the statement that this guy that this first snitch was talking about, but that they were. It was a very uh, it was a very general kind of confession. Like he he said, I didn't mean the killer, uh, And that was the entire essence of the statement. And so it was pretty easy for the defense to attack that. So uh, they came up with another guy, uh Lyle Jackson, that
they put more details into the into the confession. And it was like, you know, I went down to the courthouse and Mitch was standing out after it was after the hearing, the plimentary hearing, and Mitch was standing out in the hallway and I said, you know, they they just looked really down. And I said, what's going on, Mitch? And he said, there's another snitch. Only this guy's got more This guy has more details. I said, well, you know, that doesn't really surprise me much, he said. I said,
I said, do you believe him? And He said, well, you know, he's more credible because of all the details he has. And I said, well, you know those details could have been supplied to him by.
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The police and Mitch says lost, how would they get it? And I monitor monitoring uh family visits, uh to uh the art between his dad and his dad and mom were down there almost every day. I said, you know they were talking about the cave and those and those phone calls are monitors. So yeah, there was no no doubt in my mind. That's why why they how they got that information. They just supply it to the to the snitch to make them look more incredible. But you
know these snitches. You know they don't. That's not direct evidence of any you know of anything. So you know there wasn't any physical evidence connecting Art to the to the murder.
Yeah, incredible, And part of your investigation is to look again at other inmates, those other inmates, and speak to those other inmates to see if there's any truth to this. You suspected this. This was just a plant. They were provided this information, these informants were to shore up this weak prosecution case. Let's just use this as an opportunity ron to talk for a second about our sponsor, which
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for the trial. Art was able finally to get out on a twenty five thousand dollars bail to be back with his family. But now he was in court. Tell us what happens at this trial and why?
Yeah, the municipal court, the court judge was murdermer of Francis because and he didn't like what he had heard during emplimentary hearing. So he sets a low bail fraud. So Art's out. But you know, the prosecutor objected to the bail, saying there can't be a bail in a capital case. Bail in a capital case, and so the judge asked her, well, what's the case laws. He couldn't come up with it, so he he he set a
low bail. Art was out for like maybe four weeks before the trial started, four to six weeks, and the first thing that the superior court judge did was revokeing bail and put him back in jail. So you know, so that when when they the trials started, the prosecution had a very weak case they you know, they had the snitches they called the detectives of course, who testified to what Art had told them during their interrogation of him.
And in the case where they rested their case after about i'd say maybe a week and a half, they had very few witnesses. So I got I was in a daily argument with with Mitch about what witnesses to call because I wanted to establish the timeline of murder, but I also wanted to get Sean Hagen's statement in there. Uh, he didn't want to call Sean Hagen. I don't know why. I think he was afraid. I think he was afraid of making the connection because he didn't want the publicity.
You know, he knew that that the mint the Hillside Stringer case he was brought up in court, that the whole of media would just descend on the case and he'd become a circus and it wouldn't be good for Art, you know, I mean with that kind of publicity, because all of a sudden stuff would come out, right. So, uh, I think that was the biggest reason why he didn't want to call. But you know, when you take these cases, you have to you know, you have to go with
what with what the facts are? Aware of the facts, leady, you know, and he just wasn't willing to do that. And like I said, I think it was because he didn't want to the press to be there.
You were also gone through and part of your investigation, and Denise and art were the apartment managers in on Monterey Road, and so you start looking through rental applications, and you also spoke to a person that lived in the apartment complex named Genie Merrick, and tell us what you heard from Genie Merrick, and also tell us a little bit about that investigation into the apartment rental applications.
Yeah. Well, uh, let's go back to what Artor told the police when they were they were gating about his activities of the day. And he said that while he was out cleaning the alley as one of his old friends from when he worked for the City of South Pasadaria stopped by and he was chatting with the with the guy Tony Barrett. And while he was standing there chatting, a car drove up up and he identified the firstson in the car to the police as Jean Merrick's brother.
He didn't know the guy's name. Well, when I talked to Jean Merricks. She had She told me her brother's name was William Asper, and I went and talked to him to see if you know what he had to say about himself being over at the UH at the apartment. He said, well, I was over at the apartment. I said, well, well the owner white car? He said, no, I drive
a red Porsche. So I went back and was reading the police reports, and Jean Merrick had made this statement that about two weeks before the murder, a guy had knocked on her door and was asking how many married and single women lived in the apartment complex and stated his name was Eddie. And this statement was backed up by another person, another woman in the in the apartment complex,
who said it also happened to her. So I had two statements saying that this guy named Daddy had knocked on the door asked me how many married and single women lived in the apartment complex. So I was going back through the reports. I'd forgotten, I'd totally forgotten about it.
I was going through the reports and one of the first things I had done with when I got on the case was to ask Denise to supplim me with all the rental applications from all the tendids that lived there and people that had applied for written to UH, had so a lot an application in the past, and so she did that. She supplied in the copies of all that, and so as arts trial approached, I was going through all the rental applications begin and I see
this name Eddie on one of the applications. I wow, really, And it suddenly occurred to me as the statement that I just took this out of my mind, because you know, there wasn't any way I was gonna I'm gonna find a first name Eddie, you know in my mind when I heard the statements from Geen America and the other lady, and so I was going through these applications and it just struck me, just Eddie, Eddie. Yeah, And so I started.
I called Denis up and I said, hey, Denise, tell me about this Eddie Cassy and she said, well, he lived in the apartment complex with with his cousin. WHOA. I'd already done plenty of research on the Hillside streng occasion. I knew they were looking for two people, two or more people, and that these people would be that these UH suspects would be related, possibly cousins or brothers. They'd
have a symbiotic relationship. And so I was going through these the applications in it, and when I was talking to Denise about Eddie, I said, well what does he do? And she said, well, he's a dental student, I think. And I had already come to the because of the way Leslie was murdered, but the with the cord, the way the cord had been died around her neck, with three knots in the cord. Two of the knots on
the side corresponded to pressure points on her neck. And so I'd come to the conclusion in my analysis of the fashion of the crime that whoever killed Leslie Berry had to know something about the anatomy.
Okay, round two.
Name something that's not boring, laundry, computer solitaire, huh.
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I mean, who else wo know anything about pressure points or the nick and also be very adapted at time, not like surgical or not. And so I was looking for somebody who had some background in in medicine or the anatomy. And so when I found Eddie, he was a dental student. He would know something about time knotts, surgical knots uh, and he would know something about the anatomy. So I said, well, what about his cousin? What did
his cousin do? And she said, well, uh, I think I think he went back to the Laredo, Texas where he was from, to become police officer. Oh well, that's pretty interesting, because what they were looking for in the Hillsize strainer case was somebody that was familiar with police procedures, and they really thought that that that the suspect would would have been would be a cop, the perpetrator would
be a cop. And uh so that investigated, you know, everybody on the police force just about and had a lot of dirt turned up, a lot of dirt on on some of their own officers. So that's you know, I was talking to Denise and you know, she had no idea what she was telling me. I mean, it was it was incredible that that I'd come up with something with two suspects right away, just right off the bat, that fit with what they were looking for in the
Hillside screamer case. They were related, and one of them was a police officer, he had majored in police science at U c l A. And the other one was fit my profile that I do developed in the Leslie Burry murder, that he would know something about the anatomy and a harder time lots.
You looked into this possibility of Smith and Casilion, and you also looked at again the time frames of other Hillside strangler murders and disappearances. So and also that there was another person named Dennis Canto again tell us that there was any relation with these two people Smith and uh and Eddie and tell us a little bit about your investigation regarding Canto and then before you tell us about your approach to the Hillside Strangler task Force.
Yeah, well, one of the big, one of the big deals about the Hillside Stranger investigation was they were looking for somebody that knew a particular that knew a particular area. And uh, that was one of the reasons why they they they were so convinced that that Barno was Warner was the Hillside friend. It was because he lived in Glendale and was familiar with the Glendale passed the area.
And but these guys also lived in the area. You know, they lived in a closer proximity to where some of the victims were either uh either disappeared or or the bodies were found. Then even Angela barn in Cannopy Hockey. So you know that that was a that was a very big, very big deal with the with the police. Now what I was looking at was not only the sinity they lived in, uh, what they did for a living, that they were cousins. I had not even uh done
anything with with Dennis can too, can't you know? I was I was convinced that Eddie had killed Leslie Berry and that together him and his cousin had mewed uh Seppada and Johnson and and Chris and uh Christina Weckler and probably more. You know, I mean, where does it end? I just couldn't. I didn't have the resources to investigate
more cases. So I was limiting my investigation to to the Cepada, Johnson and Weckler merge in the Hillsize Strainer case, and uh with a with a little bit into Elizabeth and Bias, which was the later murder that happened down in in the Pinko Revera area. So I'm sorry, did I get off track again?
When you talked when you talk about approaching the Hillside Strangler Task Force, you're you're reluctant to do it, but you believe it's your duty to be able to inform them, give them the information you have, give them the theory, and and see what what their reaction is. So what is the reaction when you first call the the Hillside Strangler task Force?
Oh? Yeah, well I called it. I first called task force shortly after uh well, after coming up with the suspects with Cassie Young Smith. I got at add Henderson on the line, and the first time I called me just they didn't want to even hear it anything. They didn't want to take any down any information. The second time I called them, I had more information I learned
to supply them. So they sent uh two detectives Bob Melliker and John hold Her out to my office in Pasadena and they sit there and listen to me for forty five minutes, and they had one asked me one question, and that was what the suspects looked like. And I had no idea. I hadn't met any of them, and I hadn't talked to any of them at the time, so I just didn't know. But they were not, you know,
uh interested in pursuing the lead at all. You know, I think the first time I called him, all I really knew was about Seawan Eagen's statement, and that to me, that was enough. You know, they should have been interested just based on that statement. But the second time I called him, I'd come up to the suspects, so I had more information I wanted them to investigate. So after I talked to him, I talked to the nice because I was interested in how they left the apartment what not.
And Denise told me that Denise Azuri's art's wife told me that they had left the apartment in a total mess. That she had found some some cut off electrical cords in the in one of the drawers, she said they found she found a speaker like the speaker you put on a police car, and uh, there were some boots hiking boots or something that that she had found. And she said, there looked like there was some blood or something on the on the boots. So I wanted to get the boots and see if they could do a
blood test and stuff on them. And there was, you know, it was that sort of stuff. So I called, uh, mel your back because I thought that was pretty interesting, particularly the uh, the police car speaker item that they found. So I called the task force back and I said, uh, you know, I was just talking to my client's wife and and she said that she gave me a list of stuff and these guys left behind. And Melicker said, well, I'm not interested in any of that. I'm not going
to investigate the case. I said why, he said, I'm just not not interested. And I was so pissed off I just slammed down the phone. I mean, I just didn't want to talk to him.
You had the privilege, I guess, or the great interest to be able to be able to see what one of the Hillside Stranglers Byanki Kenneth Bianki had said, linking him to what they considered the Hillside Strangler task Force considered the seventh and eighth victims, which was Dolores Dolly Suppita and Sonia Johnson. You got to see what he said, specifically, any details that would would establish that he was telling the truth about that. Tell us about what you witnessed yourself.
You got to see and read about what he had to say about his connection to the Subpita Johnson murders in this hill Strength Hillside Strangler case.
Yeah, Beyonce's statements about in Johnson just in fact, in fact, you know, I don't know if I mentioned it in the book, I can't remember, but uh, Beyonce initially denied
that that Sayda and Johnson were theirs. I mean, you know, when he was confessing to the to the murders, he initially denied that that that he was, uh, that that he and Bono had killed in Johnson but then later on, yeah, they were, they were the task force really wanted to include to paid in Johnson for emotional impact on our jury. They wanted to include them in the in the in the case he's against Bonce. So his statements were just,
you know, just outlandish. You know, he said that, uh, that dollars of Pete really knew what she was doing and giving all sex to him and Bob, you know, just just maligning the victims, you know, something awful. You could tell that he was, that he was lying. He's nothing he said about the case made any sense.
So you know, now in your investigation here, you you had all you had a certain amount of time, you had a deadline to be able to find out information. But like you say, Melino disappointed you. You had a confrontation with him after you've figure that he failed Art and Zurous. What was the conviction, What was the sentence for Art? What was his fate in the end in that trial?
Yeah, he was, uh, he was found guilty of murder with special circumstances and sentenced to life in prison without proll And where he still is, he's still in the in the prison system. Yeah, I was. I was when he was convicted. I was really pissed. I went back to my office. Now he just knocked everything off the desk and picked up the phone threw it against the wall. I mean, you know, it has been one one half of one argument after another in which you know, Lena
was just just stone walling. It was beyond me. Why you know, I was, I was handing him uh a good defense in a in a in a basket, you know, I mean, it was just, yeah, I was.
I was.
Even now when I think about it, I want to start throwing things. Yeah. It he just I don't know the whole the whole thing. It wasn't just mists either.
Later on, when I was on the case with Ruston and Wilcock, uh, they kept complaining about how uh Gerald Chails was interfering on the case and how he was friends with the with the presiding judge, and and that that that he shouldn't even have been there really, and you know, the whole system was just you know, it just seemed like the whole system was threw up.
Talk about this incredible development that happens. You approach the task force numerous times, and you even meet with the task Force, but they just don't take your information seriously. The report that you read after speaking to these people for an hour is again angers you, frustrates you. Now tell us how you come to be involved incredibly on the defense team of Angelo Bono. Tell us how this occurs the circumstances which.
I got all. I got a call from Chuck Wiswell, who was one of the investigators working for Jim Breston, and he said he told me that he had won the report, uh that uh that Melcher files on my meeting with him, and then he thought I was right about Leslie Burn murder, and they wanted they wanted to
meet with me. So I went down and met with him in Orange County and uh, and I was really curious as to, you know, what the police had done with the with a forty five minute interview they that I gave him, and so I went down, uh to Boslo's office. I said, I want to see that statement. So Chuck goes through a bunch of papers, say that they had boxes and boxes of files on the case,
and he finds the one that he's looking for. He hands it to me and it's three quarters of a page long, and it leaves out all the all all the information I gave them, all the relevant information, the similarities between the Spada Johnson murders and the Leslie Barry. For example, the date of the murder of Leslie Berry was exactly one year after the bodies of Spade and Johnson were found, right to the death November twentieth. Both girls were twelve years old at the time of their death.
They lived a mile apart. They were both strangled. They died by ligiage strangulation, so you know, I mean, plus they had gone to the same school, private small private school together, so you know, there was all these similarities that that that that I had seen, and they weren't interest Nobody was interested in them. I mean, it was to me that was just amazing. It had to be. I couldn't figure out whether whether this was just uh, the stupidity of a couple of cops, or whether you know,
something more sinister, like higher up was happening. You know, they they wanted to keep all this stuff out of the out of the news. I didn't know, you know, still don't in a way, I still don't, But you know, I think you have to come to the conclusion considering what happened with my with my investigation, my involvement on the Hillside ring of the case, that it was systematic, that systemic, Uh, the cover up.
When you talk about this cover up, what is your reason for this cover up?
What you know?
They have Angelo Buono, they have a confession from Kenneth Bianchi, many people have just as you mentioned, you said there was problems with that the details or lack of details to corroborate the story. But is this a matter of somebody already making up their mind they have the fear contained?
Is that what this is? So that's the think I think that's probably a big part of it. The other part of it is they just don't want to be wrong. You know, it's like they're their their credibility is on the line, and they just can't omit the wrong. They can't. They there's nothing in the system that makes it go put on the break when they when they get new information, you know, I mean, it does happen once in a while you read about it, but most of the time
it doesn't. They just they go full full steam ahead with whatever they're doing. And that's what they did in this case. And of course, you know, you also have the media and the media. H you know, they don't let facts get in the way of the story they want to tell a lot of times. And the story they wanted to tell was they all sides playing the case and been solved with Kenneth Bianki and Angelo Bono.
And that's the end of the story, you know, now for you the end of the story. It still hasn't been the end of the story. And that's with this remarkable book. But you also followed up and called you got you were lucky and you got to call Eddie Castilian first, and your idea was that you would use one against the other. Smith and Eddie tell us a
little bit about the of the conversation. But what did you find out that sort of that also fit this profile which is very important of the Hillside stranglers.
Oh yeah, let's see. I think I I think I talked to Smith first by telephone. He was he was in he was in uh Laredo and uh living at uh Eddie Casti owns house with with with with Cassio's parents. And I talked to him first and about I don't know, forty five minutes uh talk. And he had told me, you know, he just seemed to know more about stuff
than a normal person would know. Uh. For example, UH, when I was telling him about the Leslie Bury murder, he said, well, you know, you know the the girls used to play out there in the in the uh in the carboard area there Leslie and her girlfriend and uh and and and and an interesting note here, as a result of my book, I got a call, uh several years ago from a gal who said that she was a friend of Leslie Berry's and that the police had interviewed her and had shown her uh photo line
up to see if she could pick the person that was watching her her and Leslie play down in the carboard area out of this photo line up. And of course Ansera's picture was in it, and she couldn't pick the She didn't pick, AND's a picture. I said, well, the reason he didn't picture you didn't pick, and there's the picture is because you didn't see Answers. The person you saw was was Martin Smith. He was watching. He
admitted it to me. And so the other thing was that that that Smith had had brought up the uh Sepada Johnson murs in in his own way, you know, after mentioning you know, he said, well, there's you know there, there's those other girls that were were murders lived nearby there, and uh, you know, how would he uh, why would he even think of that? You know, I mean, you know, it just seemed like he knew more about what was
going on and yeah, than he was letting on. So anyway, after I talked to him, I wanted to Eddie was still in in school at USC Medicals or a USC Dental school, so I wanted to go down and talk to him, and I could talk to him faith to faith and see what his reasked would be. And so I asked Mark if he wanted to go along, if it go along with me, and he said, well, I'll drive you down there, but I'm not going to go in with you. So I said, well that's okay, you can you can wait out in the car if you
want to. So he drove me down to the USC Dental school and and I met with Eddie and and and uh, I just fled out accused him of the crimes. Uh, I said, Eddie, I think you murdered Dolli Sepada and Cyny Johnson and Leslie Berry. He said, wasn't. Actually, I said, Leslie Barry first, and he said, no, that wasn't me. And then when I said Sepeta and Johnson, he didn't he didn't really respond to that. He didn't deny murdering thel Me, denied murdering Leslie Berry. I said, well, it
was either one of two people. It was either you or your roommate, Dennis can Too. He said it wasn't Well, it wasn't me, and you'll have to talk to Dennis about that, which I thought was a little bit a bit of an odd.
Response when you say, yeah, certainly. It's interesting too that one of the remarkable things was that a photo of Dennis can Too and Kenneth Bianchi tell us about.
This, Oh yeah, Biyonchi and can Too. I was, I was sitting in my little cottage in Pasadena when I was what watching the news when they brought Kenneth Bianki back from Bellingham, Washington to stand Well, he wasn't going to stand trial. He he had already pled guilty but to uh five of the murders and exchanged for her sestimony and so uh they were leading him from the plane into the terminal, and the cameras, the TV cameras were there and I looked at him a cheg point.
He looks for mere man. I can't believe it. And I went into to what I used as an office, uh in my cottage and got the file out, and I was going through it, I seem find the picture of Canton. Man. I cannot believe that this is just I mean, they were. They were dead ringers, absolute dead ringers.
M hm.
Which added, you know this one more thing, that circumstance that convinced me that they had the long.
Guy in Beyonce in bono, it's interesting to you write about something that's again that unbelievable. No fiction writer could insert this and have any believability. Was in May seventy eight, there was a sex offender, Richard Reynolds. He was lying in wait for a woman named Roxanne Barnwell, who was alerted to the danger in the fear of the Hillside
Strangler murders, and was prepared and had a gun. Now she was fearing this hillside strangler attack, and he got in the car and she shot him in the head, but he returned fire. So when the police found this scene, they saw Roxanne Barnwell and Richard Reynolds dead and then did an investigation about Richard Reynolds. They got kind of excited that he might be the Hillside strangler because of those other things that fit, but he was eliminated shortly after.
Just an interesting, fascinating footnote to this incredible case as well.
Right well, they also had George Shamshack. He was one of their primary suspects and looked very much the part he wasn't. I wouldn't call him a dead ringer for Biancy, but he had to look, you know, the the curly hair, the horse faces, that sort of thing. So he was a suspect for for quite a while. And finally Roger Kelly, you know, I mean, Bob Grogan was pushing and Porson and Porson. They had Shamshack charge with Murs, but Roger Kelly kept saying, I've got to have evidence. I've got
to have something to take to court. I can't just charge people with murder without without something. Mm hmm.
Now let's get to the Bono case. We know what the end result is, but you talk about some of the events there and what you thought the prosecutor felt and the judge felt.
Uh.
They charged him with pimping and pandering and procurement for sex. So they added all those charges, very much like they added additional sex charges to Art and Zuris's case, just to just to add, you know, malice to this thing, or to add some importance to the charges itself.
Right, they add those things for special circumstances so they
can they can turn it into a capital case. But with the with the Bono thing, you know that they Roger Kelly charged him with pimping and pantering, and uh, the judges decided, you know, this was really an incredible sleeve bag moved on my as far as I'm concerned, But he severed the charges, the pimping and pandering charges from the murder case, and uh and appointed uh Gerald Tailiff to represent Hunt Bono on the pimping and panning charges. But it was just it was just a ruse to
get to give Tailiff access to Bono. That's all that was all that was about.
So you're saying that there was a dirty trick involved here, so that uh and as you explained in the book, that this person that was going to do the bidding for the judge to make sure this all went away despite the lack of physical evidence, and the too neat confession, and the problematic testimony of Kenneth Bianchi, and the problematic confession that he had with lack of incredible detail. Despite all of these reservations by everyone, you say this, he was convicted.
Yes, yeah, I mean, uh, but but he wasn't given a good defense. I mean no, that was that was the whole purpose. That was the whole purpose of getting to jail upon there. You know, Califf was one of these guys that would go along to uh go along to get along. You know. Yeah. I think I think one of one of the one of his biggest ambitions was to become a judge, and to become you know, most judges in California are former prosecutors. Very few of them are chosen from the defense side of the wall.
And and I think Caleff Califf wanted to ingratiate himself with the police so that he would potentially get a judge ship offer to him, which never happened.
I think I think what's important too, when you talk about Jailiff and Judge Keene, is that what happens is that they the judge refuses uh Brussman's motion to declare him indigen and so that he doesn't have any money and he needs to be a quart appointed. So they fought through that and basically, as you're right, they starve out the defense team. And then later when this jailiff is appointed, because that's he is appointed by the judge.
It's the way they can get things done. They'd said that his upholstery shop would give him the means to be able to defend himself properly, but it really didn't. He didn't have the means to defend himself properly.
Well, what what Brusman had proposed to the judge was that bonnal would would sign all that stuff over to the to the state, and he changed for for uh. You know, his his sign over his polstery shop is properly in Glendale. All of his assets had turnover and exchanged for uh, the government paying for his defense. And and the judge denied that. He denied it until until Taylors was UH was appointed. I mean he he literally the judge literally starved Jim Brustman and Jim Willcox off
the case. That's what it boils down to. And he did that because he wanted Taylorff to get the k and he wanted tailor to get the case, so the tailor roll over on borrow. That was that's the bottom line.
Yes, you also talk about that the official story again from the media, But you write about an author named Darcy O'Brien, a profession of English literature and an old friend of Ronald George. Now tell us who Ronald George is, and tell us just briefly about how you think or why you think this Darcy O'Brien was able to write this book, and especially the way he did, with the tone he did.
Yeah, Ronald George was the judge that presided over the trial evangel o'barro and after Roger Kelly had uh made the motion dismisscharges. Well actually even before then, uh at the at the at the beginning of the case, Ronald George called his old buddy, was talking to his old buddy, Darcy O'Brien about about the case, and Darcy O'Brien wanted to write a book about it, and he had an
insight with the judge. So the judge invited him to come out and he would he would put in a wound with him, you know, with the with the with the cops to cooperate with him, and UH, I learned about this from I had gone back to UH Tulsa, UH after getting kicked off the case and having all kinds of albums, including a PTSD from my service in Vietnam.
And so I was back in Tulsa and I was reading the Tulsa World and they were talking about Darcy O'Brien's book and they said right there in the article that he was the old college roommate of Ronald George of presiding judge. Something. You can't do that, that's that's against the judicial ethics for h for a judge to use his position on a case to help either himself or a or a friend or family member, you just can't do that. It's unethical. But George did.
And it's interesting.
Yeah, so go ahead. Yeah, I've been in communication with Frank's learn know in the last few years, and you know, he had told he told Grogan and anybody that listened that it was that it was unethical. What George was doing was unethical, and having Darcy O'Brien, he said he didn't cooperate with Darcy O'Brien, He didn't give him any inside information. Born On and Finnigan, who were the two Sheriff's Department detectives.
Yeah.
In this book, in the end you write a report. Your original report is included the report where you had done your investigation and provided the task force with information. This is report you also provided for Roger Kelly, the prosecutor. And so in this book you have done the good deed of looking at this and trying to free an innocent man Art and Zura's unfortunately you didn't, and try to get to the real perpetrator and the perpetrators of the murder of Leslie Berry and you believe as well
some of the Hillside strangler victims. It's a very commendable effort that you've done and a very impressive book. For those that might want to take a look at this book, is there a website or Facebook page for a Crossing of Paths that people might want to take a look at Amazon?
It's available on Amazon dot com. There's some reviews on Amazon too, you might want to look at those. The book got panned by a couple of people, but mostly people have been very supporting the book.
Yes, it's a remarkable story. I want to thank you very much.
Yeah, I was I was just going to say that it can be Just google my name or or the title of Crossing a Pass and you can find it on Amazon.
Absolutely, thank you so much talking about a crossing a path the true untold story of the Hillside Strangler case. Thank you very much, Ron Crisp. If you have a great evening, it's been a pleasure.
Good night, Thank you, Dan, good night, good night.