A CLOCKWORK MURDER-Steve Jackson

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best friends, much less killers. Walt was a fast talking, well dressed ladies man who boasted of his sexual conquest. Salmon was deeply religious and a social misfit. Obsessed with losing his virginity. Walt was the leader, Samon his willing follower, but neither had been in serious trouble with the law. However, inspired by the cult movie A Clockwork Orange with its dystopian violence, they fantasized for months what it would be

like to abduct, rape, torture, and murder a woman. Then, aroused by watching ultra violent pornography, they decided to act upon their evil thoughts. Revised in Updated with a new afterword from the author, A Clockwork Murder recounts the steps that led to an unthinkable crime and its impact on a community, as well as the friends and especially the parents of an innocent young woman who paid with her life for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

From the True Crime Library of New York Times bestselling author Steve Jackson, comes A Clockwork Murder the night a twisted fantasy became a demented reality, with my special guest, journalist and author and publisher Steve Jackson. Welcome back to the program. Thank you very much for greeting this interview. Steve Jackson.

death penalty. I was doing this for a a news magazine UH in Colorado, and and this case, the these two murder trials of of UH Lucas Salmon and George Wolt for the murder of J. C. Glinski UH were going through various permutations at that time of in the process, and and it was it was a fairly new version of the death penalty, and this was a These were cases in which judges would be used to determine whether defendants, if he has found guilty, would be sentenced to death.

Since then, the judge panels have been eliminated and it's back to the jury, a regular jury of your peers making that decision. But that's kind of how I found out about the trial or this case in particular, and then as I started to look into it, you know, it was just a really unusual case. It was one of those where you say, you know, if either one of these guys hadn't met the other guy or was under was influenced by the other guy, would this have

ever happened? Would Jaysne still be alive? So you know that it it struck me in that in that regard and just sort of how to not particularly you know, heinous individuals or not somebody you would have thought would be involved in a murder, especially a murder of this sort. You know what happened in their thought processes and how they got to that point.

a doated on by his mom. He you know she but in kind of a strange way, he was both cherished and at the same time constantly under her, you know, sit up straight and make sure your hair is combed and uh, you know, clean under your fingernails and uh and she could be she has appears to have had some mental illness issues herself, and some of this, you know, would later come out with George and sort of his treatment of women.

But the the sort of thing, you know, no hair out of place, and uh, you know, a lot of looking in the mirror type things and uh, and if he wasn't perfect, his mom would let him know that, you know, he was wasn't looking perfect. So I think a lot of what went on with George has to do with his mom and his treatment there. You know, his father was also something of an alcoholic, so he didn't contribute to as you as you might want with

a young child toward his upbringing. So it's it's one of those things where you know, we're always talking about this, you know, is an environment is it? Uh? Is it hereditary?

of women. Uh, he could be charming and often actually was very charming to their faces, but he turned around and talked to his friends about you know, there they were like, as you said, good for one thing, good for sex, it's all about their looks. It was all about compliance with him. Uh, he was into rougher sex acts. And as he started to get into pornography and that

sort of thing, he he enjoyed more violent pornography. So it's it's again one of those things that was this all hereditary or did some of this come from a something a learned behavior or something that he held against his mother and then took out on on other women.

raised in a very sheltered sort of family. They didn't watch much television, they were always going to church. He was expected to, you know, remain a virgin, tell marriage and all these sorts of things.

be faithful to his faith, I guess. But George, so, George of course targets you know, the we weak people. So one of the people he he targets is Lucas and teases him, uh a mercifully talks about his lack of women and sexual prowess and these sorts of things. And even even as they become friends, which is sort of an odd thing in itself, is that George, now

George picks Lucas. And this is fairly typical sociopathic behavior in that sociopaths often want to have some sort of weaker person they can get to do their will.

you're my best friend. Though every once in a while he'll he'll torment Lucas with them, I'm leaving you. We're not friends anymore. So he liked to do that to him. And uh, Lucas, on the other hand, is Joe Org is sort of the guy he wishes he could be, uh, you know, fast talking ladies man, uh sure of himself. Lucas sort of buys into George's lies about being a karate experts and and tough and and all these sorts

of things. And and so you have Lucas the kind of shy uh ultra Christian person who is young man who is trying to find his way in the world. Is has some issues as far as, uh just not being being able to hold much of a conversation, especially with women. And here's this guy who's kind of everything he wants to be. So you know, when this guy starts treating him nice, he Lucas uh just sort of

blombs onto that, and uh, he's pretty soon. George is his best friend and Lucas is, or at least George says Lucas is his best friend, and they're together all the time. And that's becomes the genesis of this eventual fantasy.

So this is a process that doesn't happen very quickly, as you explained in the book, goes over a period of a few years, for a couple of years of him grooming this guy, working on him to the point where you say that this person at once was known

to not curse and had a certain behavior. What was the state of him in the fall of ninety five or before ninety five, And the difference that people that knew Lucas well noticed after staying with George Walton, the woman he was with at the time, Well, there's.

If if the end of this road is is where this book ends up, George kind of moves him along the road slowly. There are these periods of time when Lucas has gone out of town and George Uh actually shifts his attention to others, but he other people are are stronger. They may be friends with George for a while, but then sort of his his weirdness and his fantasies and some of the things he starts talking about. Eventually a normal person or or somebody with some sorts of

standards isn't going to go farther than that. But so George, who would repeatedly return back to When Lucas would return, George would turn his attentions back to Lucas as this one person who he kept being able to manipulate and move a little bit farther down that dark road.

let's you know. Some of it sounds sort of you know, I don't I wouldn't classify it as normal, but it's the you know, they're driving by, they see some woman and George would say something like, hey, let's go raper and the other guy would look at him kind of what are you saying, and George would laugh it off

or it's just joking type stuff. And then they get to one point where I believe the reference you're talking about is they're actually up in the mountains and they see a couple in a car parks at a at a overlook up in the mountains above Colorado Springs, and George suggests that they they stop, and George suggests that they actually kill the the young man and rape the woman and kill her. And he goes so far as to pick up some large rocks and put him in his car. Uh. You know, so this is kind of

one step farther along that line. But this, but James Wilson is you know, at this point, he's you know, okay, this isn't this isn't funny anymore, even if it, you know, ever was funny, But this, this is particular getting a little bit weird. And that sort of where that point where the normal person with normal uh standards and morals and uh strong enough ego themselves uh sort of gets to that you know, okay, this is this is enough.

I've I've heard enough, and and you're weird and in fact, James warned his girlfriend and has told his girlfriend's sister, I believe to UH to you know, stay away from uh George, that that there was something wrong with him. And even though George would oh, I didn't really mean it. I was just laughing at off to see how you'd react.

What George is doing, He's seeing how these other guys, these other friends react to this, and those who eventually, you know, say I don't want anything more to do with you, You're too weird, or you know, I don't want to hear you talk about that anymore. He he lets them go. They're they're not what he needs to accomplish what he has in mind.

are are willing tex partners. And in fact, it's that becomes weird just in the that George and his girlfriend or wife uh sort of hint that why don't we all have a you know, a foursome in here sort of thing going on or you know, you got I can go next door and and or in the next bedroom and and but Lucas uh backs out of all

these attempts. I mean, Lucas wants something to happen, but in the end, for quite a while he is he's just too shy or unsure of himself, or he comes up with excuses on why he can't participate, and these other young women go home disappointed, I guess. And but so Lucas remains a virgin. And so George's initial attempts to uh get him to secure a sexual partner for Lucas, uh don't work. He tries this several times before, Yeah, that's it just doesn't work.

and they were able to actually save her life. And in some ways, this is uh, you know, the the the sad part about uh Lucas Salmon for whatever he did later and and justly uh paid the price for this is this is sort of the you see this young man who is tormented, sort of you know, that angel on one side and that devil on the other side talking to him that he could, uh, you know, be a caring, sympathetic individual who you know, read that something was wrong here and and uh and took steps

to prevent it and therefore saved this young woman's life. And there were there are other instances of Lucas Salmon doing nice things for for people, and uh, you know, it's it's it's sort of where you know, the whatever, whatever it is out there is wrestling for his soul during this period of time leading up to his fantasy with George that they act on.

this Wilson, to be his best man. So tell us how it is that Lucas Salmon gets converted once again by the manipulative of George Walt.

is he going to go? He he knew that George was trouble and that this was his friendship with him was leading down a dark path here and at some point there might not be any turning back. But at the same time, he he's still desperately wanted to be like George, and he wanted George's friendship. He was sort of like the dog that you know, gets beat by the master, but still when the master says a nice word,

comes wagging his tail. And that was sort of Lucas sam and his that he recognizes the danger that George presents and you know, knows he should get away from him. But then George calls and tells him he's his best friend forever and wants him to be the best man at his wedding, and that wins Lucas over again.

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behavioral change. At the same time, his behavior is changing in the things that we've noticed, such as his treatment of women or how he talks about them anyway, and his cursing and his the drinking, and his grades also start to fail. And you know, this is this is where he is losing the battle for uh, for his soul,

I guess, and he is, you know, he is. I don't know if he's giving up on life, but he's certainly not caring about the thing the normal young man who is looking forward to the future cares about.

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dot Com promo code true. Now, Steve, we talked about all of the circumstances and situations and all of the particular forces that were in play when these two people finally got back together with Bonnie living with Walt's wife, Bonnie, who's crucial to this story, as we'll see in a few minutes. Let's talk about the A Clockwork Orange which

this book is based around. Tell us a little bit about why this movie was important to George Wolt, and what was it about the movie that was important to George Wolt and what would he want to try to express or convey to Lucas about this movie.

of a the very it's there. It's a studying anti social behavior by the young, but it's told in the almost a it's almost like a dream, a bad dream. There are there's a lot of symbolism and a lot of odd things that happen that are have a sort of surreal feel to them. In the movie, there's there's

quite a bit of violence. There's a couple of different rape scenes, and there's this discussion of of what makes you so so violence and so prone to criminality and uh, it sort of discusses, you know, are you born with a devil in you? Or do you is this something you you learned from society? Something that you pick up along the way, so as it it becomes a favorite

of George. It's it's got that the violence, and it's in the sexual violence and the sort of you know, living a fantasy aspects to this, and and it becomes part of his fantasy that you know, wouldn't it be fun to to rape? And and then it eventually evolves to rape and murder a young woman and and and that's he kind of picks it up from uh the movie. You know. I'm I'm always uh reluctant to say, well, it's this movie's fault or this this game's fault or

this thing. You know. I think people have a if possibly a tendency. Whether it's so again we returned to the is it hereditary or is it this a learned tendency? But people have tendencies and and then possibly something like that they may glom onto something like a violent, sexually violent film as uh, you know it it enhances the fantasies that they already have. It's it's sort of not giving permissions so much as as perhaps just a sort of blueprint and a you know, uh thinking about the world.

Here's here's the world telling me that you know, at least in this weird sort of way that you know other people think the same way I do. Obviously, this this film exists. So but George starts to use this film with Lucas as sort of a hey, uh, it's in a way like using the violent pornography to to

break down his inhibitions, you know. They he gets them to watch the film and then talks about wouldn't it be fun to go out and do a little ultra violence as they talked about in the in the movie, or hey, let's rape her and and it and it kind of it's it's it's almost a tool he uses to further break down Lucas's inhibitions and to get him to join him in his fantasy.

each other. So he's recruiting him to do what his fantasy has been. And we talk, and you talk about April twenty ninth, nineteen ninety seven, Lucas had been fired from his father's company for making sexually inappropriate comments crude language. Yet at the same time he would drive around with a thunderbird with a bible in there and chain smoke and drink alcohol. Tell us about April twenty ninth, nineteen ninety seven, and Amber Gonzalez.

He he's thinking it's uh, you know, he's he's obviously uh, sexually aroused by all of this himself. By now, they're sexually aroused but frustrated and and he's getting into the same game. You know. They they follow different people around, they discuss whether they should abduct somebody. But up to this point, it's all kind of a lot of talk

and there's there's not that much action. They you know, they are they are moving towards this you and you know, in hindsight look looking back at it, you can see, uh, them driving down this road. But anyway, they they the incident you're talking about. There's an area in Coloro Springs called Garden of the Gods. It's a very beautiful park. There's a lot of winding roads and a lot of joggers go in there and and that sort of thing.

And so one day that the George and Lucas are driving through the park and they go past a young woman who is jogging and on one of the roads, and they sort of now they're kind of at this point they are looking for a victim. I mean, it's still kind of exciting and are we really going to go through with this? And what are we going to do? And you know that point. But so they turn around

and they actually go to follow her. And now as they're passing her, they George bumps her with the car and knocks her down, and they they jump out of the car and they go back, and the intention is to put her in the car and take her somewhere and rape her. But they are still at that sort of if there's like a percent percentages in uh in their actions, you know, when they're talking, they're kind of at fifty percent. They start stalking somebody, there are seventy

five percent of the way there with Amber. They knock her down, George tries to get her in the car by saying, hey, let us take you to a hospital and or let us give you a ride somewhere. And so they're very close, but they don't actually grab her and forcibly put her in the car. So they're they're not quite there. And and Amber, on the other hand, is also very you know, she's she's angry, and she's not hurt so bad that she she can't defend herself if she has to, but she's angry enough that she's

kind of giving them what for. And there's no way she's getting in a car with these guys. And she tells them that her dad happens to be one of the park rangers. So they get in the car and they leave very close to what they were intending to do, but not quite enough there to actually grab or abductor and carry out the plan. But this is just one more step along the way. They're very excited after this happens.

They're talking about what they could have happened and what might have gone on, and so this is all just setting the scene for what happens later.

or television. So tell us about as you found out, and you write about in the book Jayceon Glinski, her mother Peggy, and her father Bob, not a biological father. But tell us about Jason Golinsky. Who was she.

of loved by everybody she had. She took care of her biological father, who had never really done much of anything for her, had never made her made the child support payments, was a sort of a bum in that regard. But he uh, but when he came down with cancer, jay Scene took care of him and nursed him throughout it and up until his his death. She was very close to with her mom, Pegy. They were She was an only child and Peggy's only child, and her mom

just sort of lived through her. And even after Pegy divorced Jaycene's biological father when Jayson was very young and married Bob Louisa, you know, she they were just they were a family that did everything together. They went on vacation together, They of course, went to every single one

of Jaysne's many sports events together. They were, you know, basically, you're just your quiet middle class family with Peggy living for the day when her daughter would uh settle down and get married and have a baby and give her grandchildren and just that sort of thing that most of us as we look forward in our lives when we have children, is the we we see a future that you know is filled with grandchildren and Christmases and uh, you know, school plays and and all of these sorts

of things, and you don't have a lot of bad things coming into your life. Here, these are people who didn't live in a a bad area, who neighborhood or anything who had to deal with They didn't expose themselves to crime and criminals by their own behavior. They simply lived in a modest neighborhood and did well, went to church, and we're just basically good people who never expected anything bad to happen to them.

any of this. So Jaycene had broken up with him and was seeing a young man that her mom approved. He was much closer to her age and I was a nice young man by all accounts. And so Jaycene had had been studying and just left her apartment for to go have a late night dinner with her her boyfriend, and happened to be driving down this one road when

Lucas and George pulled up alongside. Now they've been out as they were almost every night, having drinks at a bar and leering at the waitress and talking about their fantasy. And they had driven by a couple of places, some other bars, to see if maybe some young woman would present herself and they could abduct her and go carry out their fantasy. But still at this point they're still not quite there. They you know, they're talking about it. They're you know, they they've already they had had hit

Amber Gonzalez. Uh so they're still kind of pumped for that. And they pull next to Jaysne and look over and

see this pretty blonde girl. And that's when George, at least according to Lucas's version of it, because at a point in here they will both start saying it was the other gus Idea says, let's let's follow her, how about her, let's pay, let's do her, let's and he'd been talk teasing Lucas about let's get you some and meaning let's let's get to get your virginity over with and stuff, And so they fell in behind jay Scene and followed her to her boyfriend's apartment building.

how do we not be seen? Because basically when they grab get out of their car and follow Jascene and then grab Jsne and are trying to force her back from the car, there's witnesses in the parking lot. There are people who see them. They see him when they're trying to get just Jaysne of course fights fights them and try to prevent being put in the car, and

George physically assault her, punching earned into submission. All this is going on while people where people can see this, and then they leave the parking drive out of the parking lot with Lucas driving knowing that uh people are behind the car and must have seen the license plate.

And this is that's almost one of the most bizarre parts of this whole thing is is that they were easily seen and made no attempt to uh, you know, try to grab somebody when they were alone, or or to disguise themselves, or to to wait until there were no witnesses. They just decided, now is the time, and we're going to go through with this, and that was apparently the only thing on their minds.

and another person was grabbing her legs. But the most eerie part is what you say is that one of the witnesses clearly said that the man had spotted her, she had spotted him, and he was smiling.

to get into the head of somebody like this. It's it's the dark place. But where he is you just have to wonder. I mean, he looks up, he sees or this witness says when he looks up he sees her and he smiles or of some sort. So it's it is. There's a number of very weird moments in this, this whole story, from the beginning to the end. But that's that's certainly one of the weirder ones.

And and then shortly after that they get a it wasn't too long after that they get a a call from a police officer asking if they knew of of, you know, what, where Jaycene was. And it's sort of a series of calls because it doesn't take long for the police to to find uh Lucas and uh George. You know, they like I said, they had a license plate on them, They you know, had identified the car. They were able to get a description of the guys.

There's so they you know it I mean obviously has taken a couple of hours because they've gone and done what they did. But they it's it's these calls come into the parents fairly quickly, a series of calls, and then they're asked, you know somebody named George Waltz, you know somebody named Lucas Salmon, And of course they don't.

These are just names out of out of nowhere. And and then basically, uh, they're told that their daughter is dead and that she and Bob I think one of the more emotional moments of the book is is when he asked if she suffered, and the detective on the phone sort of hesitates for a minute and then says, yes,

she suffered. And you know, that's that's just one of those moments where you're just your heart stops and and as a parent, you you have to you just you know, what would happen if I got a call like that? You know, how would I handle it? And and and just what a horrible thing from you know, nobody deserves to be murdered, and nobody deserves to have a bullet come flying in through their window and kill somebody, kill a child, or or anything else like this. And and

those people are innocent as well. But you know, there's there's something about when you live in a high crime area that there's you know, the possibility of something bad happens is part of your her daily life. And I don't know if it makes you immune to it, but it certainly makes you more aware of it. But when you're a little middle class family with nothing more to worry about, making sure you're paying your bills, and is your daughter who's in Colorado Springs happy, and is she

getting over her old boyfriend? And suddenly in the middle of the night you get a call that she's been abducted. And then as you learn to the night that she was abducted, and then you find out that she was murdered, and then you find out that she suffered. You know, just it just tears at your heart. And if you got any kind of empathy as a reader or an author's staring at your heart there too.

But both of them basically confessed. Now where they where there's a change is that they both make it more that the other guy was more culpable than they were. It's it's fairly typical that, well, he's the one that suggested it, and he's the one that you know, said we should do this. I you know, I was kind of going along or I was, and and to a degree there was there was some of that. I mean,

Lucas was probably the most forthright of the two. George of course blamed everything on Lucas that it was all a game to him, and Lucas is the one that wanted to follow through on it. Lucas was more of the well, it became both of ours and and yes I did it, and I deserve whatever punishment I get,

and and that sort of thing. And so you see that there that's split there right there, which is the George Woolf who is the in my opinion, the true sociopath here with no empathy and basically, uh, he's trying to minimize his involvement, blaming Lucas for everything, and Lucas more accepting his share of the responsibility. He does. He does a certain amount of of you know that it

was George's fault too. But on the other hand, probably he's been telling the truth that a lot of this was more had more to do with George than with with Lucas, just because it's it's clear and from the evidence that the the talking about violent pornography and the trying to talk other people into committing crimes against women with them and stuff, that was that was all George.

You didn't have Lucas suggesting to other people that they kill somebody or rape the women until he gets together with George, and then it he they start to share this fantasy until uh, Lucas is as guilty of murder and rape as George is. Uh. But you know, it's we come back to that question of would Lucas sam And have turned into a killer without George George wolfs uh interference or involvement. But you could say that too

about George. But with George, I think it's more of a question of what he have ever had the courage to do something on his own if he couldn't find somebody like Lucas. Whereas Lucas is you know, would he have even had this this thought, this fantasy if there wasn't planted in his brain by George.

It is just a matter of these anti death penalty lawyers using these cases and fighting vehemently and vigorously for their clients because they don't believe in the death penalty, and so they have to use whatever, as you describe, any kind of angle that they can it becomes a battle, as you say, of the expert witnesses. But what I want to talk about is, and this is not so typical, is the state of the confessions themselves, the details how

these two perpetrators stated. Those details tell us about Lucas salmon recitation of events and George Woltz version of events.

and then I said that. You know, and I mean the police officers, the detectives who are interviewing them are certainly leaving them with, you know, questions as to and then what happened that sort of questioning. But I think that's part of the remarkableness of these confessions is that

it's they're so so emotionless. There's if you look at them or you know, it's suggest the hope people will read the book, because there's a there's a lot to this book, you know, just sort of the idea of of I mean, the police officers order out for the you know, the the guys are hungry in the morning, so they order McDonald's for them and they set they're you know, chewing on a cheeseburger as they described, you know,

how they cut Jason's throat. You know, it's it's it's almost the sort of thing where you know, boy, uh, you know, one of your worst serial killers. How how they can basically some some of them anyway, talk about murdering somebody and there, you know, their blood pressure doesn't rise. They don't exhibit any sort of physical reaction to discussing, uh, something that would make most of us, uh, you know,

register in at least some way. And in that George and Lucas are both you know, uh, they they fit that more of that pattern of of the sociopath who you know lacks empathy because you know, can can tell a horrifying story like this and without you know, breaking down or without a whole ton of remorse. Neither one of them really ever ah says anything about remorse other than that they were sorry they did it, but mostly

because now their lives are over. So there's there's very little of empathy for the victim or you know, you know, I'm really sorry. Uh, you know, she was she was a nice person, didn't deserve it, You don't. You don't see a lot of that. And with either one of them, do you see the you know, we decided to do it, and it was mostly his fault that we decided to do it sort of things.

go ahead with this death penalty. And also what I found fascinating was that the parents didn't really want to know a lot of the details, and when they went to court, they still didn't want to know those details. They did not want to see photos, They did not want to hear a lot of these details, did they.

And they did that also, not just on the details of what happened to jay scene, but just even listening to either of these guys or their lawyers talking about or anybody else, you know, the psychologists talking about what happens. You know, they they they didn't need to know that, they didn't want to know all of that. They preferred not, you know, really really having that set in their minds as what Jaysne went to in her in her last minutes.

not a foregone conclusion. What happens in this case after that, especially unfortunately for all of the people involved, but especially Peggy and Bob in this So I just wanted to say though that took on this case because because of the death penalty aspect and issue, tell us how important that death penalty issue was to this story and this case.

we get fair trials. And we've certainly all heard enough about innocent people being convicted and being railroaded, and these sorts of things, and and and there are circumstances sometimes where I mean, in the law recognizes it were a case that would seem to be called for the death penalty. Maybe there's there's some things we haven't considered that they're generally called mitigators that you know, maybe make it so that the death penalty, if you believe in it at all,

is maybe not the appropriate punishment. But in this case, in particular, the Colorado's State Public Defenders Office is a very good one. They're there as far as the quality of their attorneys. Sometimes public defenders offices are you're you're not getting the best of the best. But client in Colorado, the particularly those who handle the death penalty, plus the other attorneys who are private attorneys who volunteered who work on death penalties are are all very good as far

as their abilities. In this particular case, I think we we saw some of the abuses of a death penalty case as far as what the parents of jayceeen were were put through. Uh in this as lawyers who you know, they they seem to have reached a conclusion that whatever it took to prevent their clients from being sentenced to death. Was was more important and moral superior to what was uh just and and and what the parents of the

victim were put through. They the parents in this case that Peggy and Bob became even more victims than the than the usual uh, the families and friends of victims every every you know, victims. When you talk about victims, you obviously have the person who who's murdered, but then you have a widening circle of victims from family and loved ones and friends, and then out to friends of friends and then the community, and then you know, all the way to ourselves as a nation when we when

we study these sorts of things. But in this particular case, Peggy and Bob were or subjected to, uh some efforts on the behalf of the defendants by the defense attorneys that just you know, just will make your stomach turned and uh and it went beyond the cause of justice or to me, the role of defense attorneys, which I agree is, is to zealously represent their their clients. But at some point there are there are you know, ethics and boundaries and and lines that shouldn't be crossed on

behalf of of murderers. Who have been convicted of a heinous crime, and you know, you've decided that the only thing that matters is the defendant in his life, and it doesn't matter what you're doing to anybody else. Uh. And that's you know, there there are great defense attorneys who do everything they can for their their clients and

there to be applauded. And then there are a few who go beyond that too, because they believe in a political uh statement, or they believe that the defendant's right rights to life or whatever are more important than than the other people. And and in that and that the victim,

Jaysne becomes nothing more than something to argue over. She's a case number, she's nothing more than the reason we are all gathered here in this courtroom, and her parents become nothing more than ponds and pieces of the chess game that the defense attorneys are playing with the prosecutors. So that it is a I think it's a it's a it's a really interesting case for as one of those cases that we hold up as a mirror of

our society. And when we're faced with some of these important issues such as the death penalty.

to us, and we need to deal with it. And by reading these these sorts of stories and we can, we can kind of get a view of what our justice system is like and and what it does to to everybody, including the people who are usually forgotten in all of this, which are the victims them the victims' families.

So I understand that they're especially vehement in their defense of these people because of that, because of their philosophy, But I agree with you there has to be some sort of limit to what the victim's family would have to be subjected to and so, And it was interesting too that I've never really seen this before that the parents were asked if they were interested in the death penalty, and they were understandably, I think, regardless of what position

you are on the death penalty. But they said it after the behavior of the defense attorneys that they were more committed to the death penalty, which isn't typical. I would think, well.

they'd rethought that at all. That's that's if anything, You're right that they believed even more that they deserved the death penalty, but just having to go through the time, I mean, the way the courts operate and judges allow, you know, all sorts of delays, you know, silly stuff like the defense attorneys being given three weeks to get them some something in order, then them coming in on the eleventh hour on that third week and say, no,

we just we didn't have enough time. When it's clearly just a ball and the way practice which is meant to you know, they're hoping to wear down the not just the state, not just you know, we all know that they will sometimes flood the prosecutor's office with motions and paperwork, and the state has to keep up with all this sort of stuff, but you know, just that you know that they'll wear down the parents here, that the parents will eventually say, you know, never mind, we

don't want the death penalty. We just you know, want us to be over and and and when it's when it's that sort of thing, and then that a judge or these judges can't get a grip on their own courtrooms and on these attorneys and say, you know, you had this amount of time, that's it, that's let's go. Let's move this these things forward and and move this and move these in some sort of a way that

doesn't just drag on for years and years. And I mean even after if somebody is convicted of the death penalty. You know, the the whole part of this whole issue of appeal after appeal after appeal isn't so much because there are you know, concerns about was this uh, this defendant's rights vile, where his rights violated, or did it stay do this wrong or was this wrong or or

something like that. A lot of it is just done to delay in the hope that eventually the either the state or the victim's parents or whoever, will give up and say, you know, we don't we don't want this anymore. Now, somebody who doesn't believe in the death penalty will say, well, I'm I'm in the right. I thought for this person's life. And and if it took causing all these delays and sort of this sort of thing, then you know, good

for me, I I saved saved his life. But you know once again that that comes at the price to other people who for whom that that might not be justice, and and and and it's not the law. You know, the law is that we have a death penalty, but it's it's not carried out. Yeah.

the point of losing control of their courtrooms. And basically they just don't want to do anything that might possibly come back to get them. So you know, those judges don't belong in courtrooms.

which is interesting was interesting to me. She kind of looks at the forensic evidence and compare it and and go through it, so it's it's almost more of a historic true crime than it is just a a history about this unusual character. But anyway, yes, at wild bluepress dot com and you'll find a lot of really great true crime authors there. As we're seem to be adding a new one every week, or a new book by

somebody that people already know about. But it's it's been we're now let's see, I guess about three years into into having published our first book, and and we've got some three dozen books I think out there now and a couple dozen authors and and you know, our whole uh concept was to to get good books out there that traditional publishers. Traditional publishers have gone to they only

want the big book. They wanted the O. J. Simpson book, or they want the you know, the big, big, high publicity court case or trial and that people have seen on television. But there are to me, those are not necessarily the good true crime stories the today. I don't think Anne Rule would probably get half of her books

published under the new rules with traditional publishers. So we tend to try to gather those authors, both best selling and also the occasional rookie who we look at the book and we say, you know, the story deserves to be told. And we seem to have two or three new true crime books coming out every month, and there's

always some sort of deal. But I hope people will remember that, you know, for for every ninety nine cent book they buy, they got to look into buying a book at full price if you want to keep your favorite authors writing as opposed to having to work bagging

groceries or something. Just because there are there are a lot of pre books you can get out there these days, and I know people kind of wait for them or the ninety nine cent deals, but you know and on occasion, uh you know, say that that Starbucks coffee and and support your local authors.

fantasy became a demented reality. Thank you very much, Steve Jackson. Hope to talk to you again real soon. You have a great evening.