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You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about him Bundee Stahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
On February sixth, nineteen seventy three, in Detroit, Michigan, drug dealer Reuben Bryant was shot dead. Twenty one year old artist Ray Gray was convicted for the murder. The conviction based on a fixed line up and no evidence. Raymond Gray is an internationally recognized artist. He is also in the forty fourth year of a life sentence for the
nineteen seventy three murder of drug dealer Reuben Bryant. The state of Michigan has had in his possession for over thirty of those years, an affidavit from one of the two hold up men responsible for Bryant's murder that exonerates Gray, and yet Michigan recently turned Gray down yet again for sentence computation commutation. In two thousand and seven, Fred Rosen was looking to do a follow up to one of his books and had the idea of interviewing lifers behind
bars who had made something of their second chance. Also a film professor, Rosen recalled the nineteen sixty film Convicts Four starring Ben gazeerres John Rescoe, a convicted murder who became an artist behind bars. The art led to reprieve his autobiography that became that movie. Rosen start looking for someone like Resco found Ray Gray in Muskegan Prison in Michigan. After investigating, Rosen realized he had found an innocent man.
Not only had Gray been an artist before prison, he was about to go pro as a boxer, using the money he made from boxing to attend art school. Rosen knew getting an innocent man out of jail takes years if you were lucky. If not, Rosen had a chance to make had a decision to make was he in
or out the book they were featuring this evening. The story we're featuring this evening is forty four years in Counting an Innocent Man in Prison with my special guest from Muskegan Prison, Ray Gray, and author and journalist and filmmaker Fred Rosen. Welcome Ray Gray and Fred Rosen to the program. Thank you, gentlemen for joining the program.
You paid debit call from Gray.
Who accepted an inmate at the Michigan Department of Corrections Muskegan Correctional Facility. If you feel you're being victimized or extorted by this prisoner, please contact GTL Customer Service at eight five five four sixty six two eight three to two.
To accept this call. Press zero to refuse this call, hang up or press one to prevent calls from this facility. Press six.
Somebody needs to press zero.
Your call was not accepted. Please try again later.
Hello, Hello Damn Ray. No, it's Fred.
Hello Fred. Sorry for the uh problem here with the prison in Michigan, and I apologize to the audience for that.
No, I apologize to the audience on that one. Let me just explain that when he calls in, you have to press zero. Did you oh you.
Did and it didn't come true.
Yeah, no, oh well, we'll try again. He'll call again. And it was a problem when he just called in just during the introduction. Yeah, yeah, we'll just we'll work it out when he calls back. He's called back twice, so we'll get him again and we'll connect with the program. Welcome back to the program, Fred, Thank you for coming on with this incredible story and also thank you for surviving her again. Irma to join us here.
Hey, Dan, it's always a pleasure to be with you. I truly appreciate it, especially doing a program on this man, because this is the first time in my professional life I've ever found an innocent man.
Yeah, certainly. Let's while Rey Gray is connecting. We all know and he has an excellent site, Facebook page and also website Free Ray Gray, giving people a lot of information about what happened at this incredible file. I guess that he had or didn't have that convicted him and sent him to prison and continues to keep him incarcerated now for the forty fourth year. Maybe you could tell us how again. We just alluded to it and spoke briefly to it in the introduction. How you got involved.
Tell us what how you got convinced, basically that this man was innocent when you were looking at a completely failed situation. We talked about looking at life, people doing life, who had made something of their second chance. And then you found.
Yeah, mister, Yeah, I found yeah. And it was as funny as we're talking if you start remembering things, you know. And at the time I didn't, you know. All I was thinking was, well, I just wrote a book about serial killers, The Ebor to the Grace of God. Let me go see if I could find some bad guys who did something behind bars to make their lives better. So I started, you know, I sent a couple of letters down. I sent out a couple of emails, and it was weird, Dan, I mean, I got a turned
down from one of the manson murderers. What's his name, I can't remember. He became a minister and uh he told that Tex Watson. Yes, thank you, thank you, sir, thank you. There you go, uh and yeah, and he wouldn't talk to me, he said, I already signed with another writer, right, oh, okay. Then I sent the letter to the son of Sam David Berkowitz in the New York State prison. He wrote me back. He said, I'm sorry, I'm too busy. I can't talk to you. Okay, you
got a life sentence, you're too busy to talk to somebody. Yeah, Well, I'm helping. I'm I'm I'm helping other prisoners doing this and that. I said, okay, And I got that letter. Someplay and then I don't remember, you know. I suddenly I remembered John Resco. I remembered this movie Convicts, for which had stuck with me since I was a kid. And then I essentially did a search in Google where I used the search terms homicide killer artist, and eventually
raised man came up. And here's what happened. I'm reading about this. You know, it's a website, you know, and anybody can do a website, you know, even the Russians. So I got that in. I got that in, and then I started reading about the facts of the case. And I contacted Ray's wife, Barbe, and I said, look, it looks to me like he's innocent, but if I find out that you're conning me, I'll burn you guys. And she says, we can take it to investigate.
Well, I read the court.
Transcript at BARBARAE. Now she's calling me on the other line. But I read the court transcript, and I read the transcript, I read the police reports, and when I saw the affid David that Ray had gotten from one of the actual hold up men, in which he actually said he was part of this thing with a drug dealer, Reuben Brian died and Ray had nothing, Oh my god, I've got an innocent man, you know. Plus the trial had
stuff in it that was science fiction. I mean, a trial in the United States is the quot criminal trial? Actually criminal or civil? You're supposed to have discovery first? Do you think have discovery? That is a clear constitutional violation. And he had a first time neophide attorney who is deceased, and I don't care. This guy was a moron. So when I put it all together and I realized the jilted girlfriend was involved with this, and not to mention racism, I realized I found an innocent man.
For those people that don't know, we're talking about his ex girlfriend going to this Bryant's house for drugs right minutes before there was a home invasion. The gyfriend us clears right right.
For me, go ahead, no, correct, what happens is Ray is at his house and the girlfriend comes to the house and with these two guys, and she just wants to get some heroin, which Ray would have absolutely no idea where it is. Because Ray is an athlete. He was a bit up to turn a professional as a boxer, and he's going to use the money he made from boxing to fund his career as an artist and study art and so forth. So he had no motive, no means,
no opportunity. He had alibi witnesses. And she comes over and says, hey, these you know, my buddies wanted to get heroin, and then she takes them over to Rupin Bryant's apartment and then the hold up the purse.
Hang on, Fred, let's see we've got Ray Gray here, connecting again from a skeg in prison.
If you feel you're being victimized or extorted by this prisoner, please contact GTL Customer Service at eight five five four sixty six two eight three to two.
To accept this call. Press zero to refuse this call, hang up, or press one to prevent calls from this facility. Press six. Your call was not a accepted, Please try again later.
Well, Fred, that's what we get I did the prompts properly and they say try again later. So we're having problem getting Ray Gray connected here from a skeik in prison to be able to spot I.
Speak to Maybe I can get him connected on to my phone here.
Well, let's just continue with the interview and see if we can soldier on here because the interruption will be we're talking about the girlfriend and the drugs, and you're talking about the alibi he had. Again, he wouldn't have had anything to do with heroin. But this is an ex girlfriend at this point. This is not his current girlfriend as well, to be no, just to get the back straight on.
This, Yeah, this is an ex girlfriend who actually singers him to the cops. What happens is, according to the records of the case, the girlfriend is to the to the to the drug dealer's apartment with her two buddies. She goes up alone. There are two women upstairs and a couple of kids in that apartment with the drug dealer. Okay, so the truth and um and and and so so.
What happens is there's like a knock at the door, and the then the door depending upon which person you're talking to, who is in that room, either the girlfriend open starts to open the door, or the two guys outside break in and they are indeed her two buddies. Okay, and they have been identified. Okay. Then one of the others deceased is gonna pirron Few and the other guy uh is his name is is Charlie and Charlie Later what happens is Ray uh is home at the time
that this all occurs. Eventually there is a fight between the drug dealer who's being held at at bay with with a gun and one of them, the shorter of the two hold up men, who is alleged to his Raymond Gray. Well guess what. Gray was practically a professional boxer. He would have taken him out with one punch. Instead, they pustle and whoever the you know, the gunman is probably probably Charlie, he shoots him. Okay. Anyway, long story short,
the drug dealer dies, you know. Eventually the cops come and all that stuff. The girlfriend goes downtown with them. There's a statement and then they drop her off at her boyfriend's house that evening after giving a statement, and the boyfriend not the boyfriend, the ex boyfriend Ray Gray, and Gray is like, what's going on? When she explains what happened, and she said, he said, well, who were the two guys that broke in with ether? Two guys
you were here with me? And she wouldn't answer. And what happens from that point is about a day later, the Costs asked the girlfriend who's the boyfriend. She says Ray Gray, And just like that, without having any evidence, they arrest him and Gray for the murder of Bud and Bryant. That's the whole story. No, no, not one piece's evidence. They don't even search us house, they don't do nothing, and Greg keeps saying, hey, I didn't do it, you know, because.
An interesting twist in this immediately though, Michael Bryant, the brother of Reuben Bryant, is a newly minted Detroit police cadet. So it's said that he embarked on a mission to avenge his brother's murder. And there is a right on Raymond Gray's site he talks about the confrontation he has, the conversation he has with Michael Bryant over this murder, and clearly what Michael Bryant's intent is. So maybe you can just give us a briefing on what that conversation was.
Sure once Gray, now they don't have he says, I didn't do it. Well, you got to have corroborating evidence. So one of the standard ways to do that is a lineup, and Gray is taken to Grays taken to a cell. And that's way the section of Dwayne County Jail and the Detroit and anyone comes Michael Bryant, who as you say, who's who's the despis's brother of Priest Cadet and he says that there's going to be a lineup and Grace and Graces, well, that's great because I'll
be cleared. The Gray says, I don't think so, and basically laughs at him. And what happens is there the first thing the cops do, and this is what corrupt cops do, they did a throwdown, which is where you take the mup shots and you find down in front of the witness and you say so. They said to two of the witnesses that were in the two of the two of the women that were in the the apartment, the other two women, do you see the dead guy
here who shot RUVN Bryant? And only one of the pictures is that the man with a full man shoe, mustache and ran and Gray's hair style and of course Raymond Gray. In other words, he's the only guy that doesn't look like any of the other guys. It's it's a standard floyd that cops use, correct cops to get somebody identified. Well, the next thing that happens is there is an actual line up, just like you're watching, you know, Law in Order SVU, and Raymond Gray is the shortest
guy there. He was a setaway boxer and all these other guys are big, and he's the only one. With a few minutes. You must that she gets what two women say, Oh he look it looks like he's the one. They're not even positive, but it looks like he's the one. And on the basis of that, he's indieted and within
a mark for six weeks or so. And he goes to trial on this stupid tourne he decides to go for a bench trial with the judge instead of twelve citizens, and that will become crucial in terms of what happened.
You also talk about it, we did, you did mention it. But I think we've got to reinforce this lack of evidence there is you say, no murder weapons found. There is no search of his home, there is any search of.
The tone, there is no murder weptis found. That there is another very important point. There is something here in the US called Brady issues, which means that when you're going to trial, you can't keep anything behind your back. Okay, Well, one of Brady issues was that they they like the witness has said that one of the bad guys have gone into the bedroom and touched the jar with money and put money all. Well, that jaw has been invested
for princely. Guess what regularly prince went on. Well, whether or not the two called us plan how that prints on it is another story that that it's not clear, but we know for a fact his finger prints they're not on back jaw. That money trial, they kept it behind her back until two thousand and five. If that had been presented at the time of the trial, the judge might the city he's not guilty by reasonable gay. But that didn't halt. But now you've got you've got
a lot of stuff going down here. You know you've got questionable ID, You've got you know you've got you've got a questionable ide you've got you've got you know, when the tops originally rested way, they had a much shot with him, and actually they arrest it's somebody another
block man. And when they realized that they're a mistake, they said, oh, well you know, I mean, you know, you know they basically they said something along the lines said well, you know it's the world block guy, using a different term, and then they put Rayant the cost. You see what follow there's no evidence whatsoever. And then another justice is my motives, there's no opportunity. It is one of the biggest Uh, it is the biggest mischarage to justice.
I certainly you talk about trial as way as well that the Michael Bryant, the some of the people that didn't weren't able to identify Ray Gray whatsoever, suddenly at trial were able to identify him positively. So what Ray Gray and supporters contend is that there was some coaching in there by the police or Michael Bryant or both in so that.
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Testimony became much different from the beginning to the time at we're ready for trial. Isn't that true?
Well, very possible, Yeah, very very possible. And uh, it can't emphasize enough that this is a bench trial. So even though Ray has a half a dozen witnesses and said he was home at the time for some reason, the judge decides not to believe them, you know it doesn't never explain it, no, nothing, and uh and and just finds him guilty. And he does say at the time when he sentences him, the name was Judge Irving Rabbits.
He does say that he wishes that he didn't have to give him the book, you know, to the limit, which was life, because he didn't think he deserved it, but he did it anyway, And so you know, you know, I think the crime was called felony murder. You know, every state holds it differently, but essentially, you know, it's a murder one conviction, you know what I mean. And it happens that Michigan is a very very conservative state.
It's very very difficult, I mean, to get the truth out when you are victimized by the criminal justice system, as Raymond Gray has.
Been immediately after this decision. I know it's now forty four years and things like innocence projects forty four years ago. I mean, I'm not an authority on this, but I would think that the momentum from the innocent projects throughout the United States has been more recent than forty four years.
I would think, yes. But with those trials, with those a pardon me, those appeal trials, potentially there is an opportunity to review and there are people that could line up behind ray Ray to support him and his bid to have for a successful appeal and retrial. Immediately after this trial, what was that effort? What was that effort like or not like?
It's a great question. I've asked myself that question too, immediately after and stuff, you know, and going forward, there were immediately after the trial, there was there were a couple of uh this I recalled, or a couple of local appeals. But he it all costs money, you know, and eventually though you know, it all costs money. But eventually what happened was, uh, those first couple of attempts failed.
Of course, that's number one. There was. I can't find anybody, frankly that I would term a really terrific lawyer on on on this case.
You know what I mean. I I the lawyer.
The Loytering wasn't the best in the world, but he did get managed to get a couple of people to work on appeals. And what happened was, and oh, I guess it would be goof sometime in the late seventies earlier, yeah, late seventies. What changes is this Ray meets bar Brinhart and they fall in love and she's an art teacher behind bars and they start to work together. So now he's got somebody behind him one hundred and ten percent and they and so they get an attorney and they
start working on us. And while this is going on, and this is about those seven years after Ray has gone, you know, behind the walls. Charlie Matthews, one of the alleged holdup men, comes behind bars in the prison that he's at the ray season in the yard, says to him, I'm here because they think I'm you, and Charlie agrees
to give him an affi. David saying that he is one of the hold of men, not that he killed Ruben Bryant, but he's one of the hold of men with tyrone Pugh gives him an affidavit, and then the attorney raised attorney at the time and Barb Pray go
into court. But Judge Rabbits, the same trial judge that convicted Ready, and they want to introduce this new evidence, and they put Matthews on the stand and Matthews is then cautioned by the district attorney that if he said, if he cops to a crime like participating in a murder, he's going to get prosecuted for the fullest limits of the war and will not give him immunity. So Matthews keeps his mouth shut, the affidavit doesn't get introduced as evidence,
and where he goes back to gil That's what happened. Gee, sounds sort of convenient, doesn't it? Nice? Nice way to cover up the truth?
Well, it does seem to be the solved problem. In effect, it's a suppression of that new evidence. And it's also again just the refusal to look at something once the courts have made that conviction in their own we'll say neighborhood for lack of a better term. They don't want somebody overturning something and seeing this glaring example of injustice.
Exactly now, exactly you talked about.
You talked about this affidavit though from Charlie Matthews. So this is very powerful. Does this Affidavid and this effort lead to any other effort than any other supporters coming forward for on behalf of Great Ray.
Now let me answer your qu You know, if this was anybody else, I would couch what I say. But when I'm on your show, Dan, I just say it the way it is, okay, And and honestly, you know, I mean, because that's way to go. I'm not you know, I certainly don't want to send anybody. But what happened was okay, I'll just tell you what happened was somebody somebody got involved at one point m m who was a journalist in Michigan, who got a lawyer involved. Pro
bonum point. I'm on the case. So in other words, we're talking about something that happened in seven years ago, eight years ago, and uh so what happens is this. But I was under the impression that when when I was told that this individual was was raised lawyer. So, you know, foolish me. I. I always think that if somebody's somebody's lawyer, you signed a contract. Ray never signed a contract, Okay. I just assumed that this was a
pro bona attorney. It turned out this person was just based you know, somebody looking you know it was it was a high priced attorney with a big public profile. It was was looking to to feed off this Well, that happened quite frankly. On more than one occasion, attorneys would.
Get involved pro bono.
They'd stay on for five minutes and then they were offered. Finally, the Michigan the Michigan Innocence Project at the University of Michigan took up race case about oh about a year and a half ago. Okay. Now, most of these innocence projects, as you know, Dan, they would rely on DNA. Race cases got nothing to do with DNA. It's old fashioned detective work. Well so, but the Michigan Innocence project is
not DNA per se. It's you know, it's you know, it's you know, it's a law school and you know, you get the students involved and so forth and so on. And eventually they looked into it and they would not take his case. And what I heard through through liiable second party was that they felt it was too complicated
and too old. Right now, now, I don't understand that, because last time I looked, you know, yes, there's got to you know, there's got to be constitutional limitations, just like this crown limitations on when you can file document, but you know, legally, but there's got to be something not to mention the fact that what kind of criminal justice system allows an innocent man to stay in jail when there's evidence, extulpatory evidence to prove he didn't do it? Sure,
you know, So it's it's it's it's you know. And and the frustrating part is this that he Ray did have a parole hearing in twenty ten. This was the first time I met Ray grand person. I met him in shackles and handcuffs. We were in a prison in Michigan.
Had the parole board individual conducting the hearing chose not to concentrate on what he was supposed to according to the regulations, which was what Ray would do when he got out of jail and so forth, you know, where he lived, what he'd do, and and all that stuff was taken care of. He's the painting, for God's sake, because his painting, you know, is people wanted to paint for money. Well, this guy's thought didn't like the fact
that Ray Gray has done something that very few people. Well, Ray Gray refuses to say that he thought he did it. If Ray Gray had said he did it a long time ago, be out. But part of the bubility of the of the parole and commutation process is the prisoner taking responsibility for their crimes. Well, how do you take responsibility for crime for something he didn't do. Ray will not admit that he did something wrong when he didn't
do it. And this particular individual with the parole board cast negated him verbally to the point that I should have stood up and said something, and I didn't. He was abusing him verbally, screaming at the guy. I mean, it was unbelievable, you know, I actually actually in retrospect, you know, and this was you know, twenty ten. The people had, you know, cameras, you know, phone cameras, but for some reason, nobody shot. I don't remember what happened.
I don't remember if we checked our cameras at the door or whatever it might have been, you know, but it was it was a very difficult situation. And of course they didn't give him parole. And that's the that's basically the you know, he came up for parole again a couple of months ago. They turned him down. They didn't even have a hearing this turned him down. You know, they passed a note into his cell.
Wow, what did they turn him down? What were the grounds this time?
They don't have They don't know, they don't they don't have to give the grounds. There's no grounds. They just say, what, we're not interested. We're not going to even consider you, buddy. That's basically what they said. And you know, within the you know, the the I think there's a lot of people that know Ray is innocent, okay, within the system, but you know, but they there's nothing they can do about it, you know, unless somebody in the parobo would
they would do the right thing. You know, But we're talking about a state that poisons its own citizens. In Flint, Michigan with it with its river water. So you know we're talking. You know, there's there's you know, there's a lot of stuff going on here politically that influences the decision whether to release a fellow like Ray Ray or not.
Certainly you talk politically. What about the petition to Governor Rick Snyder, State of Michigan and that was not that long ago. What about that bid to have a petition to Governor Rick Snyder?
Well, uh, we have an online petition to free Ray Gray, what will you know? And it went to the governor and that they didn't care. They just actually went to the It went to the governor and it also went to the parole board. They basically just said they acknowledged receipt and that was all they did. And then they just turned this stamp and there's been never been an acknowledgment from the governor of receiving it. So it's it's
you know, it's still there. I mean, you know the best way to get Ray out is to pursue a legal case. If we could find an attorney that would work pro bono, I think we could we could proceed very quickly, quite tranquily, especially with the support of good people like you.
You talk about getting the necessary money, and we did talk about how important to this story because it led you to Great Gray is the artwork of Rape Ray. And there is yes, a little bit of the artwork on the show description of this for people to see later after they listened to it, before they listen to this, they'll see that or now they'll know that that's what that is. And he has been raising money and making
money from art forever. Well, maybe we can talk about that a little bit later, but we want to talk about his art as well and how important that is in somehow surviving the roller coaster ride of emotions but also the depths of despair of what forty four years due to a man.
Yeah, I can tell Yeah, he's told me about that. I can. Maybe I should talk about that. Sure, I seem to be in the situation of actually speaking for him today and it's not unusual for me. Uh, I'm not totally surprised there was a difficulty with the call and maybe but as far as the Ray's work, uh, Rays explained to me that christ Christopherson, you know, like
his he's got a first, he's got a TV. You know, I'm like, excuse me, you got a TV set, but you got cable they charge you, you know, and uh, he's got a TV and he paints in his cell and what And I would say, well, what's going on here? Is that his work, you know, his work helps him cope with this. And to me, it's unbelievable because if it was me, I would have succumbed to depression longer,
long ago. I So I just can't believe, you know, how he's maintained his sanity with everything that's going on, you know, but by painting, it helps.
Him stay connected.
That to him is the thing more than anything else that you know, helps him get through the night. Ah. Actually, if I can find it here, I can even read your quote. But that's what helps him get through the night, you know what I mean. And he's always wanted to be a painter. And again that's why the whole again, there is no there is no there was no motive you know for what he did. That that's what I was trying to did. There was no motive for what
he did. You know, here's a guy who wants to you know, become an artist and a professional fighter and all of that stuff. Here's what he says. He says, I wrote this in an article for the lineup. The artists helped me in many ways, for it allows me to express some of my deepest inner feelings and on another level, created a world much different from this one.
A form of escapism, I suppose, However, I try to address world events also, despite where I'm at, to still try and be aware of what's going on in the world at large. To know that some of my work is on people's walls that I don't even know some in other countries is a good feeling. And that by way of my art, and that by way of my art, I was able to meet and marry my parp. I'm thankful for that. It's pretty eloquent.
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We didn't really describe. I wanted to ask you what you felt, and you thought, given the circumstances and the predicament that Ray Ray has been in for all these years, what were you surprised at the artwork of Ray Ray?
Yes, I was because I didn't know what to expect. I thought it was just gonna be one of those sensationalistic kind of things where some dude behind.
Bars, you know, drawers a little bit.
You know. I wasn't expecting the level of artistic presentation, not to mention professionalism, I just wasn't expecting it. Plus, I you know, what gets me about his stuff is, uh, particularly some of his later stuff. He's really funny and and you know, he's got a couple of you know, he's got a couple of paintings where you know, what do you call it a spaceman going up in space? You know, and and you know when if they land on some planet and the and the aliens, you know,
character sign we don't want aliens here, you know. I mean again, there's a good example of Ray's you know, keeping up with me. I mean you know that you know, and that that is is due to television, But the level of professionalism, the level of feeling, you know, I'm not I'm not a book. I'm not a you know, an art person. I mean I I don't know art that well, but I tend to go more with impressionistic stuff. But he, uh, he gets a lot of emotion into
what he does, thank god, you know. And I gotta wonder, just like John Rescoe, what would happen if Raymond Gray got the opportunity to paint in a regular studio. Help it doesn't have to be a studio. I mean, he's got an apartment with his wife. You know, there's a separate room he can paint in. You know, he's he's gotten offers to do uh, he's done book covers, he covers from me. He's he's uh, you know, obviously a portraitist. Uh, et cetera, et cetera. What how how can you know that?
That's of course, the the conundrum, which is, it's not just the fact that the guy's talented, but it's the fact that he's talented and he's innocent, and you put those two things together. How powerful would that be in a civilian population? If he if he was out, he'd be able to work with not only would he be able to do his art, he'd be able to work with disadvantaged youth, you know, things like that. You see
what I'm saying, and and and so the work itself. Uh. And by the way, he's also one of his friends is Bill Messner loves And I'm mentioning this because also Bill is also a friend of mine. And Bill just won the Finger Award from Comic Con.
It's a big award.
And the reason is now just to let fewer listeners in. Dan and I are both Marvel fans. Well, Bill Messner Loebe wrote Wonder Woman during the nineteen eighties, and so he is going to try and get Ray also into doing comic books. So there's a lot of stuff that Ray could be doing if he was out and he's able to adapt into these various areas.
Why I mentioned this as well is because we talked about the again the importance of who Rey Gray was and who Ray Gray is, and that is that he is an artist. And we talked about raising money, the incredible amount of money that you always need for better and better. Lowyal is to try to appeal this, which costs even more money than probably originally obviously it would have cost had he had the right representation. So one
way of supporting this man is. There is no book as of yet about chronicling his story, but there is fantastic art for people to look at. And this is the best way to support him as a as a human being period we can take and consider.
Yeah, yeah, and you know, and and and if someone we're interested in buying something of raise either you know, you know, just go online and you can contact me through Facebook or any of the you know, uh, you know, contact me through your show, whatever it might be. You know, the Facebook page, great Gray, you know. And and yeah, that's a great idea. I honestly, I hadn't even thought of it because you know, it's it's not like the guys, you know, they can a huge amount of money and stuff.
There's also there's also issues of involved in what do you call it? You know, when you're a prisoner, you can't you know, you've got to put it all through somebody else. You're not supposed to make money, you know, so you have to you know, you have to set things up differently, I legally, at least in Mischig, at least in Michigan, you do. But it would be wonderful
if people could help support in that way. Also if anybody has a recommendation for a Michigan attorney, you know, because we've got a situation here where we're ready to go, but we just we just don't have the bread.
It's incredible too to realize that at twenty one or twenty two years old, Ray Ray was imprisoned, so his entire life in forty four years. And why I say this too, is is that if you look at just a few examples of his artwork, it's so optimistic. It's bright, it's positive, it's there's the unique style. But it also is quite interesting to see what exudes from this man despite that forty four years of barbarity. Basically, no matter how good prison can be or has been for him,
it's no walk in the park. Forty four years, your entire life in prison.
You've said that so eloquently, Dan, I couldn't say any better. You know, I'm so close to this. I mean, I guess it isn't clear. You know, Ray has become a very close friend of mine, as his wife Park has. It's you know, it's just what's happened. And you know, so for me, it's it's I'm trying to get my friend out of jail. You know, now, if we get lucky and you know, of course we'll you know, i'd write about it, but you know, uh, but you know it's uh and it's been you know, look, there's been
you know, there's been ups and downs. We had it. We actually had a TV show that was interested in doing something with him recently, and he was going to be the pilot episode for the TV show and it was going to be on a major network. It was going to be a true crime thing. Was an id with somebody else. And the reason that they wouldn't do it is because the state of Michigan does not allow uh on camera interviews and they needed the on camera interview for the for the footage for the show, so
they couldn't do it. You know. So so you know, and this is not the only state, but you see that, you know the difficulties here, you know, not to mention the fact that, you know, people listening to me instead of Ray because of the difficulty and getting connected from prison.
Yeah, seems pretty simple when it's a press zero and the press zero doesn't work.
So yeah, but then again, we don't know, we don't know, you know, what they might they might have known as far as the fact that we're doing this interview today. You know, they they were aware through emails because I had to let Ray know what the phone number was to call in. So it's you know, it's very easy for somebody to mess up a phone line or something like that. I'm not saying they did it. I don't
have any evidence of that, you know, I'm not. I'm not one of those people that you know, uh, you know. I I promise I didn't bug Trump Tower. I didn't do it, you know. But but but you know, the thing is, seriously, the thing is, you know, just like I I when you're on the phone talking to him, I have to be careful because I'm the same. I'm the same as I am with you in any place else.
You know, I'll joe around. And one day I said to him, because he's also a Marvel fan, I said, hey, Ray, I'm going to get Spidey to pull out the bars. And then he reminded me, Fred, be careful what you say. Yes, I might, I might. I might even add this that. At one point, because it was you know, we're nuts about this stuff, I sent him a uh an attachment to an email and it was a picture of of of Steve Rogers, of Captain America, of you know from it was you know it was from the movie. You
know it was Chris Evans. Sure they wouldn't give it to him. Excuse me, there's a condemnation for a Michigan prison. You won't give a prisoner a picture of Captain America.
Gee?
Do I have to get the mighty thor after you?
So in when we talk about raised life, you talked about Barb coming in his life and making his life completely different, changing his life forever. Tell us a little bit more about this relationship and what and what is evolved from and into today?
What? What? Well?
What the what the relationship has evolved into today?
Oh? Sure? Well what happened was she you know, got involved at a point where it was it was actually at that point she was essentially assisting the attorney they had at the time, so she was actually acting as paralegal. And I'll tell you what's What's well, these two people really love each other, okay, and.
And they're devoted to each other.
And but what happened over the years, you know, the time they got married behind bars in the nineteen eighty eighty one to the present is whatever money that Barb had went down to, you know, out the window with these attorneys, you know. And then the hardest part about all this is the emotional and physical cost on her. Sure she has had now, look, I don't have to tell you, and certainly you're the listeners. Genetics and the
most important thing when it comes to our health. But she she's had a couple of strokes and she's recovering. But she was in an auto accident about a year ago where she got slammed by a tractor trailer.
Now what I'm.
Getting at is that anybody, these things to happen to anybody, Okay, I but when you have a certain momentum going in terms of a husband in prison, and every time something goods is about to happen, something bad happens. You know, it's almost like one thing leads to another, you know. And so she's been under a tremendous amount of stress. She doesn't know she'll ever spend a day with her husband outside of prison. You know, she hopes, you know,
but she doesn't know. And it's you know, it's hard to keep your hope going for so many years when it keeps getting destroyed bye bye bye by the system and maybe apathy. I don't know any other way of putting it. You know, there's a lot of empathy here, Dan. You know, when I tell people of the disguise in jail for forty four years, usually their mouth is just open. They can't relate to the amount of time.
Is there a criticism you've talked about it, then maybe I could sense it that wrongful conviction or innocence projects passed on this officially, even though it seems at a glance to be the kind of case that they long for. Again, there's no DNA xoneration. But again today it is pretty accepted that there can be false identification, There can be tunnel visions, the kinds of things, you know. There can be police corruption where people might not have believed that
before were certainly able to consider that now. Identification procedures suppressed evidence, and there's certainly suppressed evidence with the fingerprints, failure to investigate other sex suspects. But this is like a one oh one on what a wrongful conviction is based on other than the DNA. But everything else can be seen today as the ammunition for another trial, for an exoneration. Exactly why.
It seems to me that that should be that should be a possibility. But yeah, absolutely positively, you know. And and but if it would take you know, you know what I'm what you know, I looked at a couple of these you know, lawyers that it would take somebody that's committed, Okay, somebody that's committed and that's doing it for the right reasons, not because it's going to make
their reputation that much bigger. They're going to get on the uh the local evening news, you know, in their in their in their town, you know what I mean. Uh So, but it would it would take something like that. At one point, I even looked into the possibility of there being something federal, you know. But but there's nothing federal here, you know, so it's got to be the only remedies can be legal and with the state, you know.
And there's something else too, you know, which is uh and I'm sure it's got to be in the minds of these bureaucrafts to sign off on these parole things, which is, look, if if somebody is you know, if he didn't do it, which he didn't do it, and he gets out, Okay, what about the possibility that he files a multi zillion lawsuit. State knows that apparent. Yeah, you know, State knows that. Ray doesn't care about that.
You know, he didn't care about that. I mean, if the state case came to him right now and said, hey, look, i'll tell you what, we'll let you out, but you got to sign off on a suit, he'd sign off on it. He'd be crazy, not too how much? How much is it? How much is the day of your life free work? For God's sakes?
Yeah?
So yeah, so we'll hold What about maybe, yeah, Governor Rick Snyder at face value? Or what you know about Rick Snyder and his politics? You say that he didn't want to look at this. Is there a chance of another governor likelihood soon?
Is there?
Did Rick Snyder look like the kind of guy that could be approachable with this or he was just the guy that was a governor? Tell us a little bit about that.
Boy. I feel like you're Anderson Cooper and I'm on I'm on Keth on that one. You know we're going to talk politics, okay, sure, Well Rick Snyder is if there is a Republican conservative and everybody knows who he is, and right now he's under the gun because of the situation with the lead in the in the river water and flint that's sort of keep. Some arguments are being made legally that the state was responsible for this, et cetera,
et cetera. Okay, I looked it up. Okay, last governor before this dude was Jennifer grand Holme, who is a Democrat. So if if Grandholme were in office, yes, we'd have it.
We'd have a shot, I think with this guy, though, I don't think we have a bunch of a shot, except for the fact that he gets a tremendous amount of good public relations if if he lets this guy, you know, if he signs off in this commutation, and whoever the governor is, they all sign off on a commutation at the same you know, that's how it works. So so, but do I think that this guy would do that readily. No, I don't think he would do
it readily. I think that somebody would have to sit down and talk with him, because right you know, he's been more of a you know, much more conservative in his approach. And it's a shame because Ray's not the only lifeer in this kind of situation. There's a whole bunch of others you know, but you know, Rai's the only one that I know, and no, we have so we haven't been able to get any trash on that level yet. Why with the.
The particulars the way they are. He's in art school, he's going to be a pro boxer. Okay, has he the ex girlfriend? He's still associating with people that are doing heroin. Somebody might say, but well, the again, with time and and with people understanding, why can't a guy that looks as innocent as Ray have a movie maker,
have an innocence project, have somebody supporting this guy. I mean, it's one of those cases that looks at face value, is much more promising, or he's much more innocent than some of the people that that they've had somebody backing them in their attempt to have their convictions overturned.
Well, one of the things that I learned a long time ago about true crime, ed in from an editor, is that people want it to be People want to know the system work. They don't want to know it doesn't work that an innocent man can go to jail. So that's and they want an ending, and there is right now, there is no ending. So Therefore, you know, nobody's going to hire me to write a book, you know, and exposal this stuff. Okay, I mean that would be very helpful, but you know, I'm not here to shield
for a book. But the point is that, you know, you you know, you've got a situation where you've got to You've got a state that's very conservative, You've got a governor that's very conservative. Okay. As far as getting the word out to the media, I've tried. I mean, that's thank god, that's why you know we're talking today. I've certainly got a lot of contacts in the movie business. But again, you know, one of the reasons that people will shy away from something like this is because it's
not adjudicated. And when it's not adjudicated, and the fact is there is still one one of the guys involved, as I it's still alive. Well, people are afraid of lawsuits, you know, they're afraid of lawsuits, especially in the movie business and the publishing business. So you know it. So that's the reason I think that some people, you know, the people have stayed away. Plus they don't know anything
about it. I haven't you know, getting traction. I've talked for a lot of you know, for some reason, Like I said, I think people want to know more that the system works than it doesn't work. Plus there's something else I guess now that we talk about it, which is if you're going to if you're going, if you go, if if you find an innocent person, an innocent man, you got to make a decision are you in or you out? And that's what I have to do. And I knew that I was going to be in for
a long time. But that's a very that's most people don't want to do that, you know, because you're in for a long you're in for a long time, you know. But you know, there was just more that I could walk and you know, I hope, you know, most people will feel that way.
You talk about the the threat of compensation by Ray Ray being possibly a factor in as well as the state not being too interested in open up this huge can of worms. And that was evidence too. When I had Chad Keller on and talked about making a murderer in that particular case, again you could just look at and say, well, jeez, what a incredible convenient coincidence, What a lucky stroke for the state that he just happened to be on the verge of that thirty six million
dollar compensation out of contention for the compensation. So again, I think all of these factors at least look and I guess there's a public now that is at least open to that possibility that, sure enough, the people that we entrust, there are some people that we may not trust as much based on these blatant wrongful convictions. Wrongful conviction is such a nice sort of inoculus. We're wrongful conviction.
It's not appropriate. This is a travesty of justice. And a man sitting in jail for four minutes, let alone forty four years. And then, like you say, the apathy has to be addressed, and like I say, the only thing that we can do at this point is if John Wayne Gacy can sell his paintings and guys with questionable talent can become artists behind bars. How about an artist that was an artist beforehand, and it has this beautiful art. Again, it's very, very not expressive of the
horror that he's lived through. This kind of art just seems to embody the spirit that this man must have had, this innocent spirit, yep, that he had no I see no maliciousness on his part than a desire to be free. Yeah, innocent person would.
Yes, Yes, I'm very eloquent. You're very right, you know. And it's uh, it's I'll tell you something. I I'm so involved. I went to raise in twenty ten. I went to raise parole hearing a day after my daughter's by Metz by Metzvah. That's how committed I was to him. Okay, and uh, and I you know, you know, no regrets, of course. I mean, I'm glad I went, you know, because I got to see the way that things worked. And I really was shocked. I maybe, you know, maybe I sound like the most value guy.
In the world, but I was just shocked.
And you know, the way that he was treated and the fact that they're wasting the public's money. And not only that, you know, the most important thing is an innocent management behind jails for forty four years. And look what he could do if he was free. It's like you said, I wonder what would happen with his art. I wonder who he'd affect with it.
Yeah, it seems like in this particular case, without the movie start coming forward, like on the half of the West, Memphis three, and other people coming forth, like even Baldwin calling the White House apparently or trying to message the White House and Obama to say, listen, this is after watching Making a Murderer. That I think that if we can do anything at all, is to start of just
a mini movement of support. Number one, just for to consider him as an artist and in that you will also consider him as a innocent person and read his story. But the only thing that he has, the only thing
that he can give you is his artwork. And it would just be really nice that for once there'd be such a great story that this man in prison at least knows that there's that support, there's that support, because as you know, is despite your cachet as a as a journalist and an author, that you can't have listened to any change in this particular case, just by you know, Fred Rosen making a call.
So no, no, and it's no, there's no way, and it's also there's just no way. Plus it's also you know, every state is different, you know, and you know this. If this was Florida, it'd be a completely different story. It'd be much easier because everything is public in Florida. But this is completely different. You know, you're talking at a very corrupt police force. You're talking about a judge that you know, you know, I can go right down
the line. You know. It's just frustrating for me, and you know it's you know, even you know, and talking to you today about it. I you know, I really like the ideas that you've come up with to try and support. And we can use his facebook page. People can go to raise facebook page, and you know, and so forth, and if you have any suggestions for attorneys or anything like that. You know, I like to say,
good people stick together in difficult times. You know, well, these are difficult times and we're good people.
You talked about before this that if your knowledge, this was the first interview that any journalist had with Ray Ray about this, And maybe initially there were some, yes, but for almost that entire forty four years, no one was even interested enough in this other than yourself off to interview him.
Well there was go ahead, just I should explain there was a journalist? Uh actually did he interview? No? Yeah, you're correct, I'm sure, Yeah, I mean only one as as I know. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.
With this opportunity to interview him today, which I thought it was very important for people to hear right from Ray Ray's mouth the experience. And I mean, I don't even know how prepared I was to ask him questions, because some questions are just ridiculous. How does it feel, you know, his heart? Avoid questions that just they're not great questions.
What was his.
Attitude or anticipation for this interview? What was what was a conversation Like in anticipation, I know in prisoner's probably looking forward to a phone call or a letter is something that's the highlight of the day.
What was his and he was like I would say that Ray's anticipation was as it usually is. He's very even tempered. He was looking forward to it, But it wasn't like he was, you know, like he's had He's been through this so many times where something would look like it would happen, and right now as we're talking,
he thinks nothing has happened. So I'm gonna, you know, after we speak, I'll talk to his wife, who actually called me a couple of times while we've been on air, and I'll let her know what's going on, you know, and so forth, so that they know that you know, that's why I was writing Shotguns in case something happened, you know, that's you know, that's why he writes shotgun for the Texas Rangers. So in any case, yeah, he was looking forward to it.
But but he.
He he hasn't a.
I don't know. It's like he's accepted the situation, you know what I mean, and he doesn't let himself get too excited. No, yeah, I mean.
The thing is, after forty four years, you can't count on something happening for yourself. Otherwise he would have been devastated every time there was some devastating news, like you say, the humiliating parole hearing. He still can stay optimistic. He didn't have an outburst at that hearing. By as a defense mechanism, as a survival mechanism, he has to remain in his own little way how he handles that time. He can't hope for to get out of prison too much,
otherwise he'll be completely devastated. He knows where he is and he knows likely his fate. He has to they optimistic to a certain degree. But it must be hard being optimistic at all after all this time and off, after all these failures.
Yes, yes, exactly, I would agree with that. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Uh he yeah, he's got to stay level headed because of you know, these things you know, come up. You know, I mean he when I say that, you know, he was getting he got a call from a producer. Uh the producer actually called him in jail, or he called the producer rather not yeah, he called the producer. But you know,
this was a major network show. But like I said, you know, without having the ability to photograph him, they couldn't do it. And there you know that that was a major source of of of you know, that was there was a lot of optimism and then we crashed. You know, we really did on that one because I really thought, you know, and I know, you know, I know how these things go, but you know, everything looked pretty good, but the last minute it just crashed.
What I thought, too, is the incredible opportunity that arose by having Charlie Matthews come into the same prison and for Ray Ray to realize and then question him and get this affidavit from him, and then again at the last minute, that opportunity snuffed out, This incredible opportunity, this exonerating evidence. Yet I think, and just to picture the odds of the killer to come in and or the
people responsible to come into the prison incredible. I mean, well, it's amazing that it hasn't been a screenplay just for even that scene alone. What are the odds of you being able to do something so monument on your own, behalf from prison and yet.
Well yeah, I mean, I you know, again, you write a screenplay, you got to get it produced. But yes, everything you're saying things sense. I mean, actually, you know, it's it's if there's any case that you know besides Resco promps me The Birdman of Alcatraz, you know, which was a book originally before he became a movie with Burt Lancaster directed by John Frankenheimer in sixty two, I think, and a reporter got onto the case and said, this guy should be out. Well and in that case, the
guy was guilty. He really wasn't murdered. But and it didn't happen, you know, The Birdman, you know, Robert Stroud, Birdman of Alcatraz died in prestody, you know, and it was so difficult, is you know, I've had people close to me he said, oh, he's going to die in jail, and I go, don't say that, you know, I mean, I've had people that to me, that's pretty you know, it's pretty un thinking. But you know, I know where they're coming from. But thats not not going to happen.
We're gonna get talked about Barbs, Barb's health issues. What about the overall health of Ray Gray's not an old man, he's.
What's fire well, his health is okay, but from what I understand he has I think he may have hepatitis c uh and uh. He also I think he's got high blood pressure, you know, some of the standard stuff you get as you get older. Other than that, he seems to be okay. But but you know, we got to remember that, you know, forty four years behind bars for anybody is not the same as forty four years.
And you know, with freedom, it gauges you. So you know, how he is, you know, insights physically, I don't know. But the good news is that because you know, he's always been, you know, an athlete, so he keeps you know, he certainly keeps in shape. It looks, you know, so I don't think he does any boxing anymore. But but you know, overall he's okay, that's good.
Yes, it's his story. It just seems an incredible indomitable spirit that this man has. I hope that people will go to the site itself and it's not very long. It just tells his story and then shows you some artwork and the ability to be able to purchase some of this artwork and really really support this man if there is any chance at all. This seems to be the best way. I mean, certainly, have people know about this case, and that is one of the most important things.
And like I say, not everybody knows about this person whatsoever. I hope this program and maybe even subsequent programs will take up this fight for this innocent man, Ray Ray. I want to thank you very much Fred Rosen for coming on and talking about Ray Ray in this incredible case. Fred, we're going to be back on talking in October about the Bayou Strangler again. You're just a very prolific guy.
Tell us how people might get a hold of Fred Rosen to communicate or find out more about all of the great work that you've done.
So oh well, thank you, Thank you. Dan. Just have any if you'd like to get you know, get in touch with me. You can just go to my Facebook page. It's that easy, you know, just just send me an email from Facebook and I'm there. That's it. You know, I'm pretty I'm pretty public that way. And or you know, you can always send you can always go to Open Road, which is my publisher, and send an email there, you know,
if that's how you prefer doing it. If I was a DC Comics guy, I would say you could send up that signal, but I'm not going to say that. I'll say you can send up the Spider signal, Dan, Yeah, right.
I also want to mention too. We also want to mention for people to go to Free Ray Gray. It's as simple as that and check it out. I know Ray will appreciate it. It's regrettable that we couldn't get Ray to speak on his own behalf here today, but Fred, you spoke for Ray and I want to thank you very much for this interview and I know we'll be speaking to you again real soon. Thank you very much, Fred Rose Dan.
I want to thank you especially today for what you've done in Judaism. We call what you did today a big mitzvah, a good deed. Thank you, sir.
Thank you have a great night.
Fred, good night you too, Dan. Good night by
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