This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests, and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station, its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk true crime all the time. It's Sunday, June fifteenth. Happy Father's Day to all the great dads out there. We have a stack night a headlines tonight. The jury is finally deliberating. Will Karen Reid finally get her verdict this week? I think it's going to be tomorrow. We are also catching up on all things puff Daddy in the trial continues.
And then we have our special guest who will be here all the time, the KT crew Joseph Scott Morgan, the greatest forensics expert of all time, also the host of Body Bags. He is joining us later in the show and talking to us about Long Island, the Idaho College murderers, the works, and all of that plus more.
I'm Stephanie Laidecker and I head up KAT Studios where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that every day with Courtney Armstraw and Body Move In So Body Karen Reid, we're there.
Finally, finally. You think we're gonna have a verdict tomorrow. I do, So I'm gonna I'm gonna go with late Tuesday, early Wednesday.
That's your betods.
Well, I mean you seem like it seems like very black and white, right like you if you're not really up, you know where you need to be by now there's a problem, right, And I totally get you, I absolutely do. If the jury comes back Monday, I think it's gonna be not guilty all the way down the board, like I really do. But I but I think there's gonna
be some contention. I think there's gonna be some people in the jury room who have some questions, and I think it could go because they think it a full day Friday, right, They didn't get a full day.
They only had two hours under.
Flowers, right, So I think they need at least a full day. So that's Monday and then most of Tuesday, I think they need, if not all of Tuesday, and then we'll hear something on Wednesday.
There's I think to the optics of that. Also, this has.
Been a long time coming Karen Reid's retrial. If you haven't been following closely. Karen Reid. This is her second trial for the death of her boyfriend John O'Keefe. She's accused of basically running him over with her lexus in the middle of the night and fleeing the scene in the middle of a snowstorm under the influence of alcohol. And look, she had a hung jury the first time. This is the second round. She feels as though the defense did a really great job on her behalf. So
she feels as though she's been well represented. And look, at this point, it's the final stretch. It's in the juror's hands.
And you know, I have to agree with her.
She has been well represented, and I think her defense actually did a really great job. But I also will say the prosecution did a great job with what they had. I think the investigation itself, which you know though of course the state that well, the prosecution doesn't really have a huge pardon, you know, like they're not out on the scene, you know, colecting samples with solo cups. Right, it's not it's not the lawyers that are doing that, true.
But so yeah, Friday wrapped up, the jury started, there was a swarm of reed supporters out in front. Like you know, last the first trial, it seemed like there was a constant surge of people, but this retrial there hasn't been, you know, that big of a crowd. But Friday we saw a big crowd. So that must have been nice for Karen to see as she exited the courthouse.
You know, I obviously I love that.
Obviously she didn't testify, so that's really no big surprise. But I kind of wanted to go Courtney, and I thought, and you can tell me what you think about the Stephanie Courtney, and I thought maybe we would go through the highlights of each closing statement, like I'll do the prosecution side, and Courtney would do, you know, the defensive side, and we would maybe go.
To do it.
Yeah, let's go because there are some really big ticket items on either side. And frankly, you guys are legit divided. So this is a fun exercise because it's authentic.
Yeah.
So one thing that really kind of put everything in perspective for me in regards to the prosecution who it was done by Prosecutor Hank Brennan. One of the things that he said that really kind of brought everything home for me was at how John's niece testified that John would just walk away from arguments, like if him and Karen were arguing, he would just like walk away, and Karen would follow him room to room and just continue to fight. Okay, that just kind of this goes to
my theory about what happened that night. So when he said that, I was kind of like confirmation bias. Here
we go. It's working over time in my head right now, because I really think that, you know, they were arguing that night and things, you know, again, they were both you know, wasted right and emotional, and I think either he threw the whiskey glass at the tailgate or was bending down because he dropped it and she was backing up twenty four miles an hour, and either I don't necessarily think she hit him, but I think he kind of maybe got startled or you know, lost his balance something,
and that's what happened.
And she unknowingly, in your unknowingly regardless, she left, not thinking she was leaving her boyfriend for dead in the snow, but rather that she was just peeling out and he was going up the driveway to see his buds, right, and by all accounts she wanted to go home right.
She was for this night was done.
She was sick in and out with the friends, and it had gone on for too long.
She wanted to go home right, and then he went, you know. He argued that.
He argues that John O'Keefe was struck with the SUV after a night of drinking and then she just like abandoned him in the snow. He highlighted key evidence like the tail like fragments again read's own words and voicemails and text messages, you know, expressing her hatred for John but again they were fighting right, and her significant impairment, he mentioned, you know those he he referenced her own words, he said, I don't She said, I don't think I
hit him, but I could have clipped him. In the documentary series which they played for by the way, in court, that.
Was their big ending moment.
She regret that or not, but look, I know at the end of the day, she's being candid. And she's also said to have said at the scene when discovering his body, I killed him, or I hit him, I hit him. I mean that has also been turned around by the defense to say I didn't hit him. I didn't hit him, and maybe that got lost in translation.
Also that it's and I will not hop in after this on the prosecutions.
This is my time, cord time, but one thing.
But it also is a common trauma response of when you are literally shocked to say things like it's my fault, I do wherever it is anyway, that's it.
I know, I can, I can absolutely agree with that. So I thought Hank did a great.
Job and in line with you know, the iPhone data shows he wasn't in the house. The temperature the temperature data on the iPhone, how it never you know, it stayed consistent with him basically laying on top of it all night. The tail light fragments from her lexus are the ones that were found in the yard. You know, her backing up at twenty four miles per hour literally at the same time that his phone stopped moving for
the rest of the night. Combined with all that, I believe Karen Read is guilty, and I believe the state did as good as they could. But I think they're going to find her not guilty.
And you think she'll go away till when No, I don't think her life.
No, I don't think they're going to find her guilty.
I don't think.
I don't think that they've proved it beyond a reasonable doubt.
So you think she did it, but she'll get away with it. I do, I do.
So.
We have heard the prosecution side the state arrests for the defense. The closing argument was given by Alan Jackson. I think he did an exemplary job. Body is making motions.
As Okay, did somebody just appear with the gavel?
Okay?
Court is back in session. Continue, sorry, courtneyarmstets Okay. The prosecution has.
Not proven their SUV collision theory beyond a reasonable doubt, the injuries were not consistent with being hit by a car, and in fact, no medical professional on either side, no medical professional backs up the fact that John O'Keeffe was hit by a car. That obviously includes the Commonwealth's medical examiner. John's arm, which the prosecution expert alleges was hit by
a tail light, It was not bruised or broken. And there was a really interesting moment in the closing arguments where the defense said we had to dig up these X rays of John's arm and they hadn't. He made it seem like they were kind of trying to cover it up. But bottom line, this arm that was allegedly hit by a six thousand pound vehicle was not broken.
That is a shocker, a shocker to me. I just don't believe he was hit with the SUV. I mean to me, it's not a huge shocker. I don't know. But why the cover.
But that because they thought it's the whole prosecution's case that they were hit.
So that is what they are. That is what they are.
Stipulaight also brought up in closing arguments excuse me, taillight tampering. So Nicholas Barrows testified about the damage to the tail light and the fact that it was more extensive in a photo taken at the police garage than it was when he sees the vehicle at Karen's parents' house.
Okay, so that's that is a big deal.
Suspicious behavior from Brian Higgins from here to sundown. You know, as the jurors, we've seen the surveillance of Higgins getting aggressive with victim John O'Keeffe at the bar earlier that night, and then one hour after Karen Reid left the scene at one thirty am, then Brian Higgins was back down at the Campton Police station doing paperwork question Mark.
There was so much.
Misconduct by Michael Proctor, the lead investigator, even take aside the bias text messages that we've talked about where he said very disgusting things, hard to do, hard to Karen read side, But even taking that out, he had a refusal to look behind beyond Karen as a suspect. There was almost no investigation. There was literally no investigation into the Alpert's house. The Perts, the homeowners did not come out at all that morning.
They only went in for like five minutes to interview Jen McCabe.
Right, I was gonna say in Jenn McCabe, she's really the one who's basically saying I did it.
I did it.
She heard Read's first hand confession. Where's all the investigating into the people that were there? Courtney, Courtney, did you go to law school?
There was over the weekends.
Got me listen, I'm sensing some bias here.
There was no crime scene tape to secure the scene. These are facts A neighbor's home which had a ring camera pointed directly at the Alpert's house. It wasn't visited that home and therefore the video was lost. These are investigative absolute failures that prove that you know, they were not looking at anyone but Karen Reid. And then also with the tail light, so the tail light was completely the internal workings were totally gone, right, but at which
meant it would not light up at all. But there was a photo at five seven am, many hours after she allegedly hit Schaineakeef where her tailight was illuminated. And yet then that's right after that.
That's right, it was totally white, right because the red Yeah, that's right, that's right.
I know. I would like to know if in fact Karen Reid is found innocent not guilty tomorrow. My prediction if that happens, can charges still be placed on, say, for example, Brian Higgins, who's come up many times allegedly, allegedly allegedly is is can the state prosecute Yeah, of course.
They can't prosecute Karen Reid, but certainly they could go, well we went back to the drawing board, and you know, but I mean, I would imagine that the Higgins defense would be like, well, then why'd you prosecute?
Why'd you try to prosecute Karen?
Read twice in a row like why you know now you're just looking for a fall guy, you know, But I don't know.
But ye, it's a bad look I suppose to badbody.
Yeah, so both the prosecution and defense have rested. When we come back, Stephanie will give her verdict. We're going to continue following this and we are joined by forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. He has insight on three major criminal cases. Then we're breaking down week five at the trial in Shan Diddy Combs keep it here on True Crime tonight.
So we were really highly debating this whole Karen Reid's stuff, and we're going to push that on until later in the show. I'm still a little bit divided, although both of you, I must say, have done a really great job presenting the facts. But now on to our next body. Where should we start with Long Island? So the alleged Long Island serial killer Rex Hewerman. He'll be back in court on Tuesday. This is court, by the way, the judge.
Will continue to weigh in on whether or not to allow the key DNA evidence into the trial. Rex Huwerman was arrested in twenty twenty three on suspicion of being the serial killer allegedly responsible for eleven murders in Long Island from nineteen ninety three to two thousand and eleven. It's important to note he has been only linked and
accused of seven of the murders. The other remaining ones are alleged and there is going to be a June seventeenth hearing and prosecutors want to admit cutting edge genetic evidence and the defense has strong objections and we will hear more about that when they're back in court.
Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, host of bodybags and also worldwide scholar himself Jacksonville State University, is here in the house.
Joseph, what do you have to say for yourself?
Oh? Not much, but thanks for having me on Hoe. I've been waiting to join you guys now low these couple of weeks and it's great to be on We all to see if shining faces and hear your lovely voices.
Joseph is also Katie Family and he is a part of the crew here, going to be with us often.
He does all of our podcasts as well.
He's been on all of our documentaries, so he's he's the guy, and honestly, I think we have so many questions for you, Joseph.
Buckle up, Buckle up, Joseph. Rip that band aid off, right exactly.
Yeah, I'm buckled up. I'm ready.
What do you think in the Long Island Cage, Joseph? What do you think about the judge ruling one way or the other about the DNA evidence?
Should it be allowed.
And what's different about it?
I think that it should. Yeah, Well, you know, what they're talking about is utilizing what's referred to as nuclear DNA as opposed to DNA studies where you're dealing with greatly degraded DNA, which this is, by the way, but they're going to apply nuclear testing to it, and they've come up with some interesting results. You know, over period of time, biological specimens break down, so you have to
do everything you can to try to enhance those. What's really fascinating I found in this particular case is that the defense in is pre trial hearing that they had some time ago, they actually now get this. They actually use the defense attorney actually used the term magic. And I was talking recently at a conference and whatnot. It's almost like I had visions of him describing that they'd suddenly discovered fire for the first time. You know, this
is not magic. This is something that's been used literally in healthcare for years and years. What's it used for, well, to study disease with and it's validated in a medical community. Okay. But here's the rub. It's in order for something to be admitted and used in court, particularly news technology, I mean new technology, it has to go through a series of gates, if you will. And there's two ways to
look at it. You have Daubert States, which is much more rigorous, which New York is not a Daubert state, as reportedly progressive as they are. There's still a Fry state. There's only four Fries states left. And you know United States they use Fry. The bar is much lower for them. And so break that down to generalized. Yeah, well, with Fry being in a Fry state, it's like the bar is much lower, Okay, in order to get to get evidence admitted into court, it's the way it's phrase generally
is general scientific community acceptance, if you will. All right, very very proper. Now there has to be published over it very rigorous, that sort of thing that doesn't exist here. I suspect that it will get admitted, no use it.
Well, I was just going to ask you that.
So because they're this fry state, they have a lower bar, so you would think that it would be allowed then, right, because it's new, and I guess the defense is proclaiming that this is not scientifically accepted anywhere.
That's what they're saying. But yet you have a huge volume of the stuff. The nuclear DNA has been used for years and years worldwide in the medical community.
Oh okay, well, we're going to find out if the judge allows this evidence into the humor and trial, what could this mean for his defense?
Do you think I mean, it's going to be Yeah, if you're asking me, I think that it's going to be. It's going to be difficult for the defense to overcome. Simply, the numbers are astronomical, you know, and we'll hear about these astronomical two months in a row, astronomical numbers in both in both the Hurman case and in Coberger's case. These numbers are mind blowing. When you get into this arithmetic and you begin to think about what are the odds Now, for years and years we thought about things
like blood typing, ABO grouping and all of that. You're talking about one in one hundred and twenty nine thousand. When you start to talk to I mean one like one in one hundred and forty nine people might have av grouping or ab pause grouping or ab neg grouping. You're talking about quintillion in this case. And that's that's the fight. That's the fight not want to have, and that's what they're facing right now.
Well, plus the.
Hair from the daughter and the wife. Right there's it's not just him, right am I collecting that?
Right? Yeah, You've got these. So you've got the association here between these two other people that otherwise might be outliers, but they're really not. They're domiciled in this location along with a guy that has not been convicted, that has been accused of some of the most heinous crimes you know, up and down the Eastern Seaboard. It's compared to up
and down the Eastern Seaboard in years and years. When you begin to think about the volume of the things that he's been accused of and also facilitating them, maybe at the same domicile, using the same vehicle. All these sorts of things begin to play into it and the science I think, and of course I'm kind of partial. I think the science is going to be the tale of the tape.
Here I do too, just agree.
Can I ask you just about the home itself where Rex Nuerman and his family lived. As a reminder, he was a married man, two children, one with special needs. His daughter recently was you know, quoted as saying that it's you know, it is possible I'm paraphrasing that her father is the Gilgo Beach killer. His daughter, Victoria, took the train with him to work every day where he was an architect in New York City. So this was like an average man doing very non average things.
The house.
Much has been made about there being sort of this dungeon where unthinkable things were happening to the accused victim, allegedly allegedly allegedly that you know, some of these women were dragged there and kept alive and frankly tortured. Think silence of the Lambs type style. Is there forensics to point to that would that you would agree with that assertion?
Well, I think couple couple structurally with that environment which these things could have allegedly taken place of along with this list that he created to do list, which absolutely if for folks that are not familiar with it, if you actually read this thing, it will send a chill up your spine like no other bit of evidence that's
out there. And one of the things that they talk about, or that he allegedly talks about in this list is this idea of the hard point, and a hard point is generally something that engineers, structural engineers, architects talk about like an adjoining area, you know, when you're building a structure, But for the hard point here, this is also something that that kind of filters into statistic behavior with sexual predators, where you can actually suspend somebody or hang them from
like a hook or an eyebolt or one of these things. And that's that's very chilling, you know when you think about that and that dark, dirty basement down there. I've actually been to the house. I stood outside of it, took photographs that sort of thing. I don't think I was supposed to be there, but I was, And it stands out like a source on these houses are the lawns are immaculate. They're not huge houses, but worked a lot of money in Long Island and this thing, you know,
for an architect to live there, it is pale. And you began to think about the expeer of the house. And I don't know if you can read much into what went on relative to life inside the house by what's still on the outside. But it was a real, real dumpster fire.
It's true there, you know, apparently were hoarders, you know, so sometimes you know, hoarding could be thought of as a mode of depression, right, So maybe it wasn't the most happy home. But again, who would imagine that in a suburban neighborhood where people have really nice lives and you know your neighbors, and people are walking dogs that you don't have, you know, girls hanging from the ceiling in the basement when the kids are home.
Yeah, yeah, I got to tell you, if I was out walking my dog, I'd get on the other sidewalk across the street and walk my dog. Just by the external appearance.
Of this thing, unbelievable, Joseph.
And I know, you know, this hasn't gone to trial yet, but as of today, what do you think is the most compelling forensic evidence?
Yeah, we've heard about I think probably a big part of this is going to be a placement of the bodies and the level to which the bodies were memorialized by by him with the wrapping, the using of the burlap sacks and that sort of thing. That consistency there, I think, and I think probably and this is more circumstantial.
But going to the lifestyle these poor women led, you know, living hand and mouth existences as sex workers, and a lot of have been made about that over the years, I think degrading them and no one deserves what they got at all on any level. We definitely agree car in itself, Yeah.
We definitely agree there.
We're going to be back with Joseph Scott Morgan to break down the forensics and other major cases in the news, from murders to a bombing with the mysterious motive and a manifesto.
Then we're going to be.
Discussing week five in the trial against Sean did he come? There were some more major twists. Keep it here on True Krime Tonight.
Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan is breaking down all the latest cases of the summer. He has some very unique insight the Idaho College murders. If you've been following us closely. There's a report that just came out that there's a video potentially of the door dash driver, and we're not even going to talk about it quite yet because we haven't verified and we want to make sure that we're sharing information that is both timely and accurate. So more
on that tomorrow. But again, lots to uncover in all things Idaho. Body, where should we begin.
Well, I was going to talk about the door drash driver, but you took the wind out of my sails.
Oh baby, you got to hold that thought.
No, we do have to. We want to make sure that we're giving the correct information. So we got a lot to look at with that. But you know, this Wednesday, of this upcoming Wednesday day, actually Judge Hipler is holding you know, a hearing to decide if the motion to delay his trial will be granted, So we'll definitely be covering that and whether or not his team can introduce
the alternative suspect. Now, that portion of the hearing will be sealed, so we're not going to know what they talked about, but the portion of the hearing that's going to be discussing the delay will be you know, on their YouTube channel, so we'll be covering all of that. As a reminder, Korberger is a former PhD student in criminology and he's accused of fatally stabbing for University of
Idaho students on November thirteenth of twenty twenty two. This happened in Moscow, Idaho, very close to the University of Idaho, and the victims were all really young. They were in their twenties, and they were all college students, so sometimes you'll hear it referred to as Idaho college murders.
I have a question for Joseph.
So there's so much to cover in this case, and I know we only get you for such a short time, but I have so many questions for you because this is a case really about forensics. Right, There's so much to cover, But let let's just start with the latest, which is the alternative suspect. Right. I think it's personally, I think it's nonsense. But what do you what are your thoughts on it?
Why? Why is there not been anything up until this point? And I think that if the defense cares so much about the community, they think there's somebody else out there and they have an id on that person. Least the name.
Release the name exactly, it would be dangerous.
Yeah, you've got somebody, arguably from what we've heard, that has perpetrated horribly painous crime. I mean, they're saying the bloodiest they've ever seen. But yet this person's running about the countryside. So you don't have a name. You say that there's somebody, do you not care about the citizens up there? I think that that would be my supposition at this point. But that's just me, you know, And
I find it interesting that nothing has come up. I think that probably how this is going to play out. They've talked about, you know, one of the young ladies upstairs had three contributors under her fingernails, and they're going to, you know, introduce this mystery person. Maybe I don't know, but that's something that I think is very curious. I'd like to know who it is. If that's what they're going to look for.
I think they might be even using that the blood on that handrail, that might be something that they try to use as well. You know, I don't know if they ever identified the way it came from, but I think they're going to use that.
We hadn't heard anything. I'm really wondering body if if that was if it was a non viable sample, you know, if it was just it compromised in some way, and it could be compromised both the ways. One of the ways it can be compromised is how it's collected. You know, how did they try to process it? Did they destroy it? You know? What was it?
Was?
It inconclusive And we're not necessarily on have all of those answers until the same makes it into the courtroom.
And just as a for clarity, there's three pieces of evidence that we're talking about when it comes to this, right, it's the handrail that there is this unidentified and new, you know, little something also under victim Madison Mogan's fingernail, allegedly there's more DNA or additional like a mixture, a mixture which you know, by the way, I know this only because I get to work with Joseph so often. You know that we all have DNA under our fingernails, right,
just by hugging on each other. I for sure have all of your DNA potentially under my fingernails just by greeting you and giving you hugs, right. And then also there's that glove and that too had a hit of something on it. Again, this is all stuff that they're throwing, you know, in his defense. But to Joseph's point, this happened in twenty twenty two. Has it been three years with a killer at large running around Moscow, Idaho?
I think it's going to be like kind of like the alibi defense. It's going to be just a lot to do about nothing. It's going to be, you know, kind of similar to, oh, he was driving out looking at the stars on a cloudy night. I think it's much to do about nothing in my opinion, I'm only speaking for me, Joseph.
I have just one more follow up about the the DNA quote mixture of three potential people under victim Madison Moogen's nails Colberger turned up inconclusive. How much weight should I give that? Because that, yeah, should that raise a flag? Not raise a flag?
Don't think about how much weight you should give it. Think about how much weight the defense has given it because they didn't want to admit it, because you know, it leaves the door open. You know, they didn't want that admitted. They didn't want that introduced, so he cannot be included or excluded. I think that's that's key here, you know. So I'm not saying it's damning, but you know, my cousin, Vinny, your bill in the house blocked by block, you know, And so that's the way I look at it.
And if they start screaming anytimes somebody starts screaming about something like this, you know that. You know, I don't want it to happen.
Joseph, you and I were on the phone when these murders happened. I remember it like was yesterday. You were the first person I spoke to and when these murders had occurred, and we were all so shocked by just the sheer volume.
Of blood and the overkill.
And you know, you'll remember you've seen photos probably of the cement under the house.
Literally it had blood dripping.
The fact that there aren't more forensics, to me, is always slightly interesting in and of itself. Obviously, the house where this murder, these murders occurred has now been destroyed. That too, was very controversial. And what happens next, you know, this new leak from Dateline had some information that I'm curious if you have an opinion on that.
Hell yeah, I've got an opinion on it. And I'll tell you why. I woke up on a Saturday morning to a tweet from somebody that said, what was it? Well, I guess he's a fan of Joe Scott forensics. Oh he watched your had flashed had flashed up on the dateline thing in that six week period. According to this data dump, apparently he had been watching some of the
stuff that I was discussing. And my wife and I, as as our tradition, every single morning, we drink coffee, even on Saturday mornings, you know, and we're sitting there and I'm thinking, oh my god, So I had to go back and look at it. I didn't watch the program, and there it is. There's a screenshot, you know, and I'm thinking, and of course my wife is sitting there and she's she's thinking, this guy's this guy's watching you, you know, because we have weird things happen anyway, you know,
I'll appear on programs and whatnot. But this was something unbelievable. But besides that, there's somebody that has released this right now. I mean, the media is going to do what the media does. That's their nature. However, what's the genesis of this data dump and this is a data dump, and you it's not just one piece. You've got CCTV images. You know, you've got still images, You've got all of
this data. And then the stuff that comes up about positionality of Xana, and you know, we hear about all these different things that have kind of dropped in our lap. And then it's like, I think the next day, I heard somebody say, oh, there's going to be more, and I'm thinking that I can if I had been in this Judge Chambers, just as a fly on the wall, I can imagine his head was about to go nuclear and just explode because you know they moved thing, are
they you know, reset it. They've had to move it to Ada County and now the house is gone, and you know, s fool guys is sitting back saying, what what else? What else can happen? At this point, nothing's off the table as far as I'm concerned.
And it's an interesting, you know, juxtaposition, because on the one hand, you want to make sure it's a death sentence trial that Brian Coberger is getting the greatest defense possible. Right it's life and death, high stake situation, so they have to take their time to get through all the discovery associated with this case. However, on the flip of that, more time equals more loose lips and leaks and reasons
and delays and alternate theories and jury pool issues. You know, the closer it gets, the harder it gets to keep information contained.
It does. And plus let's don't forget about the families. They are in excruciating pain and it never ends. This is a death like death that they continue to relive every single.
Day, especially on FI.
There's no such thing as closure. Yeah, I don't fothersh that, there's nothing. There's no such I don't believe in closure, particularly when it comes to homicide. It goes on and on, and this is salt and a wound and just continues.
It perpetuates itself, perpetuates itself.
Either way, do you have a fast opinion about Karen read guilty not guilty? Not to go back to a previous segment, but I'd be remiss not to ask, Come on, Joseph, convince us, Yeah, guilty not guilty.
I think, Oh geez, I'm going to say. I'm going to say, hum, Jerry, I'm going to say, yeah, I don't think Yeah, I don't think they're going to be able to come up with. I think it's going to split because they've got to twist it around so much. I think it's a massive confusion. That's what I think. I love to look at the evidence and look at it from that perspective, but for me, it's just it's so convoluted, the whole thing is, and it's even more
convoluted second time around. So I really expected a better job to have been done, and it's lacking greatly.
I got to tell you, if i'm John O'Keeffe, the victims mom or parents Peggy O'Keeffe, you're thinking, I want answers for who did this to my son? So if it's not Karen Reid, who is it? I hope she gets those answers at the bare minimum.
That's right.
Listen, we want to hear your thoughts on all of tonight's cases.
Give us a call eighty to eighty three to one Crime.
We're talking Karen Reid, We're talking about the Long Island serial killer, Brian Cooburger and Joseph will discuss more cases.
He is sticking with us for the evening. We're going to be talking about the Diddy case coming up. Also the Palm Spring bombing. And also there's breaking news right now in that horrifying case in Minnesota. Man has been on the loose and Courtney, what's the latest development.
This is literally minutes old, it's about four or five minutes old. But the man hunt is over and suspect Vance Luther Bolter has been captured in Minnesota for a crime Governor Tim Waltz called quote an act of targeted political violence.
Wow.
Yes, So Melissa Hortman, a Democrat, and her husband were killed in a city near Minneapolis. John Hoffman and his wife were also shot several times at their home.
They are out of surgery and stable right now. Excuse me.
John is out of state, out of surgery and stable, and his wife is also alive. So this suspect impersonated an officer and was driving what appeared to be a police car, and investigators found in his car a hit list of nearly seventy names. Oh my gosh, mostly figures with ties to abortion rights.
So this manhunt, listen, job, well done.
Well done.
It takes a village, and you know, listen, these are divisive times, these are scary times. Just the idea that he was wearing law enforcement clothing is just incredibly scary in and of itself.
And yeah, thank god, well done.
I read that the senator and his wife that survived. I read that he was shot seven times, seven times, eight times.
Yes, it is oh my god, absolute miracle and a miracle for them to survive this.
Wow, we don't know where he was caught yet, like they haven't released that information that we love. They have taken him into custody, which leads us to believe that he is not dead, right, like he's alive.
Right. It appears, Yes.
It appears, but will update as stuff comes out over the remainder of the show. We can provide updates when and if they do come in because it's all happening.
Now real time.
I mean, yeah, that's a miracle for the survivors. And also also the lone survivor on the India flight, so many souls lost, and that one survivor and eleven a you know, also a miracle. Such a tragedy, so much loss, But there is a glimmer in that that we're sending our prayers to all of lost loved.
Ones and I am sending all the well wishes that from law enforcement that you know, found this guy, right that they send all their good mojo to the Pacific Northwest for Travis Decker.
I hope that they find him. That makes sense.
Yeah, Unfortunately, that man hunt is still going on. Travis Decker has been accused of killing his three young daughters, and US marshals and sheriff's officers, everyone's looking for this man and hopefully he will be found.
Yeah, he's been and even his you know, ex wife, the mother who has lost so much, she just lost her three kids. She's even saying like it's impossible that he wasn't having a mental health break in order to commit these crimes like he is, you know, frankly disconnected from reality, and that he was a loving father and this just got so tragic. So again, more on this to come, Joseph, you're sticking with us. We're going to
be breaking down, Diddy. We're going to talk about the Palm Spring bombing into a deep dive there and then also with following the new developments very closely as a man is apprehended. This is true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time. So we've been covering a ton Karen Reid, etc. More on that to come. But first we have a phone call. So caller Linda, welcome to the show. What's your question?
Yes, I was just curious what their thoughts were on Rex Schuerman and all of the victims that have been found so far. Do they think that the case is coming close to an end or if there will be victims ground like years to come. And then my other question, thank you, And my other question is is there a chance that he's being blamed for cass that he didn't do, just so that the case can get closed.
Yeah, that's a fair question. Yeah, I could jump in on that real quick. Go for it, Go for it.
Yeah, I think those are really as few questions. You know, Joseph can speak to the forensics. It does seem as though there is some significant connective tissue between the various victims, and there are still four that have not been identified, specifically two Rex humer men Peaches is one that gets spoken about very often in the two year old toddler. Those are not connected quite yet, so we kind of
are remaining we're kind of waiting to see. Some of them were found, as you may know, in these burlap bags, and then others seemingly weren't. So there's some differences, and therefore it's possible that this is a pile on right, and maybe he didn't do all of these murders, and maybe there's just more being piled on to him. I'm sure Joseph, forensics wise, you have a feeling on this.
Yeah. I mean, for me, you'd have to look at I think from just a spatial stamdpoint point where these bodies were deposited and in proximity to the individual that has been accused here. That's going to be one of the first steps I think that the investigators are going through, and in addition to that any kind of circumstantial evidence that they've been able to put together as far as
him being tracked. I think one of the curious things about lists that the police allege are these collection of burner phones that were utilized over a period of time. And that's really hard to get passed when you begin to point back to these poor women that have been victimized and brutalized. For me, at least, you know that someone would go to this trouble and he just happens to have the burner phones that actually have their numbers in them, you know, these escort services and that sort
of thing. So I think that's a bit of damning information that interestingly enough, they're having to kind of resurrect older forensic digital evidence to bring into this based upon how far back these cases go.
And with Grenda, that's a good question.
That is a very clever one too, because you're right, the phone stuff, that's really hard to explain away period at the end.
Right, Yeah, with the phones, I believe and correct me if I'm wrong, Joseph, that not just were these burner phones that rex Huerman had tied to the women, but also it exactly mirrored where his main phone also went. So wherever he and his phone went, so did the burner phones. And that is tied together entirely.
Yeah, and that's kind of fascinating because you can what's really interesting. I covered a case out of a Mennonite, young Mennonite woman that was kidnapped and tracked all the way her phone and the kidnapper's phone who wound up killing her. We're both simultaneously tracked going down the road to Arizona where she was eventually found. And it's amazing to tracking. You know, you might not be using your
phone you're not thinking about using your primary phone. But for him, he's got this burner phone and these things are traveling and hand them. Don't think about him. Just think about these two dots on a map. You know that they're kind of moving about. And again it's dispassionate, you know, when you think about it, it's just fact. And what a Dummy's really difficult to get.
He goes to all the trouble get a burner phone and then brings his regular phone to what a dummy?
Yeah, I like its true acknowledge that as.
A spade of spade, Yeah, he is a dummy, and it's terrible and but thank god he's a dummy.
That's the case allegedly.
Then at least there's a footprint to you know, lead to you know, a conviction if in fact he's done this, you know, Joseph. There's also, you know, so much speculation just about you know, this case went unsolved for so so.
Long, right, and maybe that there are many more.
We heard very recently an author of one of the books on the case says that he believes that there's likely one hundred more victims possibly and you know, it's hard to dispute that given that the victims that we do have identified is really because the mothers, their moms did not give up the fire, and they kind of came together and really did this investigation and pushed and pushed and pushed authorities, and thankfully they are getting closer to some justice God willing.
What do you think is going to happen next?
Well, I think that if there are other cases, they're going to begin to kind of lace these together. I just don't know how significant the information is that they have, because I would think that they would have kind of coupled them or bundled them in a modern term in cases to go that they had substantive forensic data to tie them back where they have linkage to him. These are the most solid ones that they have at this
point in time. What's going to be interesting though, if any new bodies are discovered and in the wiles of Long Island, along that roadway that I've driven up and down, it's thick. You know, You've got these thick orders, you know that leads you down through this marshy area. You've got the ocean on one side and you've got water intrusion. Things wash up, they go away, They come back. I ever know what will happen in the future, but this this appears to be a killing ground in there.
It appears to be a killing ground and possibly then some So yeah, we'll be we'll be following this much closer. Linda, thank you for the call, and we seem to have another welcome to the show.
What's your question, Hi, Jenna.
So I was wondering with Amazon coming out with a new series One Night in Idaho premiering next month, and you know, right before trial that's featuring family members and potential witnesses that could be called at trial. How do you think that could potentially impact seating an impartial jury?
Such a good question.
And all media has the potential to, you know, impact the jury, right, Like we're all human, right, I just I can't imagine that all this stuff coming out, Like there's a book coming out like eleven days before the trial starts. There's this documentary, and there's been countless other you know, episodes of Dateline in twenty twenty and you know, ad nauseum, right, there's been so much media this case.
I think it all could impact an impartial jury. However, the State of Idaho, in their response to the defense's motion for delay. You know, the defense is saying that all this media is affecting their you know, Brian, and he needs this delay. But the state is basically saying, no, there's no amount of media that this case could get where we could not see an impartial jury using individual worldoir. So the state seems very confident that they're going to
be able to see an impartial jury. I'm not so convinced personally. I think, you know, we're all humans and we're all curious, right, We're all and especially if you live in the area right that you might you might be wanting to look up this case and you might come you know, with all this, you know what I consider to be like really prejudicial leaks that are coming out because they all seem to really point at Brian
Koberger right as the person that did this. I mean that, in my opinion, is super prejudicial.
And you would have to assume too that the documentary you're speaking about the I'm one. I just saw the trailer as well, and I'm sure they're keeping it very impartial, right, that's the point of a documentary we're making one. Also, Joseph is incredible in it as well, and that's for peacock. And look, part of the challenge is making sure that you're not taking anything that has not been factually viable, and that you're curating the junk from the real stuff.
And there's so much misinformation out there on the other side of it, getting it out correctly and cleanly based on that might actually be very helpful. And listen, the news is on every day, right, so you can't avoid seeing some of this information, which is why the trial needs to happen sooner than later.
In my opinion. Any delays, I think would just be terrible. I would absolutely agree with you.
Thank you for your call, Jest, Thanks Jenna, thank you for listening, and yeah, keep calling back.
Yeah, definitely.
So we also have some updates in Diddy oh week now your favorite subject, Stephanie Diddy seem great to be Are.
You guys just missing talking about it day in and day out. You've had little reprieve for a couple of weeks, had a little reprieve.
Well, there was some there was some stuff that happened on Friday. You know, we weren't we don't have a show Friday, so we weren't able to cover it.
So we're gonna do that now.
So Week five wrapped up after four like super intense days with you know, Ditty's ex girlfriend Jane and that's like a pseudonym. But on Friday, there were some brief appearances by Kanye. Yeah, so get this right. So I don't know what he was doing there. I don't know if he was showing up so to show solidarity with
Diddy support. But he showed up with Ditty's son and they wouldn't let him in the courtroom, so he had to go to like the overflow room with like the peasants, right, and didn't like that, so he left.
He was only there for ten minutes, all just in white, very angelic, you know. Our sourcing says that he was there in support of Ditty. Their old friends and buds like him, hate him. They they go along way back. And yeah, he showed up. He got stuck in the me your room for ten minutes and it wasn't a vibe and he he left.
It wasn't it was not the vibe.
Stephanie, you say, dressed you know, all in white as an angel, I would have rethought the wardrobe choices. I mean, I just all I think about are those Hampton's all white parties and white It's so true.
That actually never occurred to me. That never occurred to me.
I thought he was doing something slightly angelic to show like this, you know, good versus evil, you know, black clothing versus white clothing. Thing good point, Courtney, That's actually very true. I hadn't occurred to me. One thing I do think was very significant in the days leading up to the weekend is this KK, Christina Koran being brought into this case officially. You know, we've been talking about this for a while. She goes by KK. That's also
Didy's like chief of staff. She used to be a Bad Boys executive and then took over all things Diddy and it it's kind of a key player in this because if they can prove that she was in fact a part of an enterprise that was coordinating and coercing and a part of the cleanup, So it's the freak offs and then it's the cover up, and it's the cleanup, and it's the payoffs. If she was a part of the payoff conversation to get that CNN video removed, where
did he was beating his then girlfriend? That's a thing So in the meantime, Joseph, you've been doing a deep dive and following this particular case in Palm Springs very closely. So where should we begin fill us in.
Well, I think that it's very important that we go back to May, which when IVF Clinic in Palm Springs was bombed. They identified a guy at that particular time, I think it's Gary Barcus, and he sets off this bomb in front of the IVF clinic in his vehicle and just absolutely just blows the thing to pieces. That a couple of people were injured inside, and of course
he died as a result of it. But as it turns out, he had written manifesto, and contained within the manifesto was his referencing of a young lady that a month prior in April had been killed at the hand of her boyfriend, a guy named Lars Nelson. Allegedly he was arrested for this. But the interesting tie back here is that I heard a term because I'm I'm actually I've actually covered this on bodybags. I heard a term I'd never heard before, and it was two pro mortalist
and anti natalist. I'd never heard this terms before. And the idea was that, you know, life is miserable, we don't need to procreate. And in addition to that, I didn't ask to be born. That's kind of the I'd never heard this before, and it was an interesting motivation. I saw the anti natalist.
Yeah, and this was this was a clinic that helped people have babies, right like they did IVF treatment. Yeah, and they had embryos on site and so they.
Did, yeah, frozen embryos in this facility. And he goes to this location to blow its pieces and of course, you know, fortunately I guess no one was killed other than the bomber, but bodiac. I tell you, one of the things this is sturbed at this and I'd love to hear your view of this, because I know that you dig on manifestos. The scary thing about this, and I'm just a forensics guy. Scary thing about this is that
are there other people? Because when somebody writes writes this down and they're talking about that they have no value in life and that you're better off dead, are there other people that kind of adhere to this? And just as a death investigate former death investigator, one of the things that troubled me is that are there others lying in wait, you know they're thinking about it, right, Well.
There's got to be there's got to be some kind of group that these people are in to discuss their beliefs, right, And you mentioned in this manifesto, guy Bactus mentions this lady Sophie almost said Cherry Sophie, and he says that he that she is his best friend. Well, like you mentioned, unfortunately Sophie her boyfriend called nine to one one and
said that she had committed suicide. Well, she had four gunshot wounds to the head, which is literally impossible to do if it's you're killing yourself, right, Like, nobody can shoot themselves four times?
What another done?
No, I've had cases I worked. You know, my background is I worked for the Corner in New Orleans and for the Emmy in Atlanta, and and so I've had people that have shot themselves multiple times. You have, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I've had several of those cases where a bad placement of the weapon, oh okay, or people will test. You'll find people that will test our weapons. But can you imagine the cops are rolling out on this and they roll up to the scene and this guy's saying allegedly,
again he's spent charged. Allegedly, Yeah, my girlfriend killed herself, and he's very just passionate about it. You know, in the nine to one one call, she killed herself and they walk in and you've got three spent casings on the floor, which means this is a semi automatic weapon. It had to be pulled at least three times, and then one of the rounds had passed through and lodged in the wall. This is not a suicide. And from what we're kind of hearing, these are all headshots, and
so yeah, those are literally unsurvivable. I've had people shoot themselves in the stomach and then turn the weapon on themselves and shoot themselves in the head, but never never, I wonder, in my experience, at least, never four or three to the head.
I wonder what the connection is between I don't know it. Yeah, well, I mean between him did she know something? Did she and he had to get rid of her. So I'm on the same track with you. There's he is he involved in this?
And this is this is what this is what her dad said, or her parents rather they're quoted, is actually having said that she could literally get this guy to do anything that she wished. And when I was putting this together for my podcast, I was thinking, I wonder, I wonder if he if this was a murder suicide thing, and then he just you know, he doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to go ahead and go through with it. Maybe that was it. But I'm thinking, here's what I'm hoping.
I'm hoping because this is something that involves two jurisdictions. You've got obviously California, and you've got Washington States, Fox Island where Sophie died. Fox Island, Washington State's twelve hundred miles away from Paul Strings. By the way, I'm hoping the FEDS have gotten involved in this doing a deep dive if there is some kind of subgroup that's out there that's promoting this and that that it ends this tragically.
I'm really hoping Smite's got os on the same because I gotta tell you, it's terrifying, and I hope that there's no copycats out there.
Yeah, Joseph, what are your thoughts on potential copycats?
Is that just because this is such.
A terrifying organizing principle, or is there it seems like there's a likelihood.
I don't know, it's it sounds like at least perhaps well people look bought into to an ethos. I don't know it's right. Just earlier this month, are there more?
Just earlier this month, Daniel Park of Kent, Washington was arrested on federal charges of providing material support to the guy who did the bombing.
Guy barked this. He shipped bark this two.
Hundred and seventy pounds of ammonium nitrate, I mean, which is the same which is the same stuff they used in.
The Oklahoma bombing.
Is So there's there's some, there's some. I think there's something there. I think you're absolutely right, Joseph, I think there's something there. I really want to read this manifesto, but it's not available.
Yeah, I think, yeah, I know you. I think they think the guy that actually sold this, that facilitated this, I think they had to. They wound up tracking him down. If I'm not mistaken in Europe. He may have been in Germany. I'm not. That seems like I'm remembering that, you know, going back to what she had mentioned about this, the subtance that they choose chose to use. I had a lot of friends that were with d mort which is National Disaster Mortuary Service that response teams that worked
Oklahoma City. A lot of people forget about Oklahoma City in the wake of nine to eleven and it was horrible and to see the devastation that was done there is almost unimaginable, I think. And that he had access to this and he knew how to set it up. And allegedly the guy in Palm Springs actually a fast national fires and fire and explosives and things like this. So it's terrifying. Yeah, are some specifically, Yeah, So it's very terrifying.
That's one of those predatory pre behaviors, right, that that people have prior to causing a massive, massive, violent destruction. And by all stretch of the imagination that happened here, I mean he was he was identified through DNA from his remains in the car. I mean he was tore up, right, this was a huge explosion.
This wasn't like it was a massive and I urge anybody that has not seen the images and if they're free to view, you know, you can see from any of the news agencies the case really did not make a big splash amazingly, uh, and it didn't. It didn't have life in the media cycle. But now I hope that it will, and I hope that there if there are other people out there and anybody that hears this is aware of this, a beg of you.
How they caught I think how they caught that guy Park, the guy that that was Incootes with him, was through their online presence because they were they were talking on online through you know, redded or four Chance, you know, one of those one of those sites where you can do that. I'm not saying that's where it happened, Please don't. I'm I'm just guessing here.
And they were.
They were all in this, you know, anti natalist group, and no human should be born without explicit consent basically, and so one A good update though from that the bombing is that all the embryos were saved, right, There were no There were people injured, but nobody was killed except for the driver who's a suspect, right, And all the embryos were not even touched, like they everything passed the mustard there. So that's good for the people that are using those facilities.
Yeah, I think that all of us can identify we've all got dear friends probably that have long to have a child, and the fact the fact that you would go to a location where you've had these embryos is a real tragedy. People are begging, you know that can't have kids, that would love to have a child. And that's what's really terrifying about this.
For me at least complicated stuff.
Yeah, and this whole movement. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Joseph, I'd never heard of the anti natalist or pro mortalist beliefs, and just looking at a couple of quotes from the manifesto quote the end goal is for the truth to win, and once it does, we can finally begin the process of sterilizing this planet of the disease of life. I mean, this is really dark stuff, but listen, very stick around. We have a lot more ground that we will be covering tonight, Joseph.
Scott Morgan is going to be sticking with us. We're going to be answering some of our questions. We have so many forensics, we have Karen Reid, and we're turning the mic over to you, so don't forget to call us.
We're at eight eight eight.
Three to one crime and we want to hear your thoughts on Shandy Combs or really any of Tonight's stories. So Gabe pit here on True Gruntz Night, we are talking true crime all the time.
So there have been a lot of breaking headlines, real time happening that we want to share.
Courtney. Where should we start.
Well, we should start with the fact that the manhunt is over and the suspect, Vance Luther Bolter has been captured in Minnesota. This is for a crime that Governor Tim Waltz called an act of targeted political violence. Michelle Hortman, a Democrat, and her husband were very sadly killed in a city near Minneapolis. John Hoffman, also a Democrat, and his wife were shot several times at their home. But both are stable and in fact, the wife you've at hoff Men says she is quote. Our family is so
humbled by the love and outpouring from everyone. So Yovette is able to communicate. Shocking since her husband was shot nine times and she was shot eight times, and this manhunt was ended while we were on the air, if you were listening earlier, and a couple of things have
come to pass. The Hennepin County Sheriff She was actually in tears when she confirmed the arrest of the suspect, and she said, there is so much release relief that the suspect was taken into custody peacefully, no injuries to him, no injuries to officers involved.
Wow.
I mean, talk about landing that plane so carefully. Law enforcement, Again, we don't say it enough. Talk about putting your life on the line going out, you know, chasing down somebody who you know is a at large and dangerous and you know could be anywhere.
This is again Father's Day.
You know how many men and women are going out leaving their families and keeping us safe.
So well done, Well done, And now we will go to talk back on Karen Reid.
Hi, my name is Renee. I'm in Santa Monica, and I had a question about the Karen Reid trial. I don't understand how they are charging her with murder because I don't see how there is any evidence of intent to kill him. Can you please explain the charges that she is facing and what evidence they have put forward to show that she intended for him to die.
By the way, I think what you are describing is the most important piece of this whole thing. She is overcharged and incorrectly charged. And maybe that's part of the Canton police is cover up air quotes allegedly. Maybe they were just trying to pile on to get her on a murder conviction when under no circumstances is that provable, you know, regardless if you think she hit him or not.
Yeah, I totally agree.
And you know, I don't think that even if she did hit him, and I don't think she necessarily did, I don't even think she realized it. Like there was no intent here, there was no premeditation. I don't even think.
I think she just was.
I if this is, if my theory is correct, which is you know that she backed up and scared him, he jumped and slipped and fell something along those lines. She wasn't intending to harm him in any capacity. I think because he's a police officer, they totally overcharged him, and I think it's going to be the state's downfall.
I do too.
I just hear you say you didn't think that she did it. Bodied are you changing in this hour, this evening's time, Have you changed your vote?
No? I absolutely have not changed my vote. She's technically if she if she backed up at twenty four miles an hour and he thought she was going to hit him, which might have happened had he not moved out of the way.
She's still guilty of filony manslaughter.
Right, but the charges, and you'd ask specifically what they are, it is second degree murder man slaughter while operating under the influence and leaving the scene of personal injury and death in connection with the death of of course her boyfriend John O'Keefe. Thank you for that, and I believe we have another talk back. Another Karen Reid question.
Actually, I think.
At one point that's not being talked about nearly enough is the fact that Brian Higgins threw his phone out at a military base. That is completely irrational unless you have something to have.
That is such a weird question. Yeah, that is really I completely forgotten. That is a shady stuff, right, real shady thing. I completely forgot about that.
Yeah, No, I did too. I until he until he started talking. I was like, oh, yeah, that's right.
And he drove like out of his way to the space too, right, Like he went out of his way to drive to this this this base and destroy his cell phone.
His cell phone wasn't like candied over in any reasonable amount of time either. Yeah, that is a very good question. And then look at we'll never know because the the investigation was so messy that we'll actually never probably get to the bottom of any of this. And I'm curious, I'm curious what any of you think if there will be additional charges placed in the event that she's found innocent.
Yeah, if she's acquitted, do you guys think that the commonwealth will charge somebody else? I'd love to know what people think about that.
One trial at a time. Number one.
And then to answer the talk back, you know, I think, why isn't it you know, how did it happen?
What does it mean?
I think this cover up runs wide and it runs deep, and that is one piece of it, because why indeed are you doing that unless it is to remove all evidence?
Joseph?
Can we talk some forensics?
Okay?
Can I just leaned very closely to you, Joseph. I'm just going to start firing like boom boom, and you know you can tell me what you think. How do you feel that's about Brian Coberger My question? And Taylor said in one of the doc and many documents that she filed that there is a lack of DNA in
the in Brian Coberger's car that was found. Do you think that this could just be a clever wording because lack doesn't necessarily mean none, right, Or do you think it's possible that he was able to clean up the car that well, that there's no DNA in the car?
I think yeah. I think that he had a protracted period of time with a car, even if he doesn't know anything about forensics, and some people have tried to paint him with some kind of mastermind. Just because you drive a car doesn't make you a Nascar eraser, all right.
Gerald McCollum tells me the same thing, just while you have a.
Yeah, so, yeah, absolutely, and so he's no, he's a criminologist. There's a huge difference. And I resent people conflating the tire and so yeah. So I think that he could have had he could have had sufficient amount of time.
I've been on records saying that I felt as though that that car, going back to what step said earlier about you being on the phone with her, I felt at that time the car would be a rolling crime scene because you can't you can't excel from a location like that with four bodies that have been subjected to knife injuries and not be supersaturated with blood, and that's going to transfer. I mean, that's the cart's principle. Every contact leaves a trace, it's going to transfer into those
filthy cloth seats in there. How did he get it sufficiently cleaned up or did he have barriers in place? Did he take his clothes off before he got into the vehicle, put him in a separate bag, you know, the dickies cover all all right. We could go on and on.
The shower curtain, the shower curtain, Joseph, We talked about this to nause him. It's such a scary detail. That's
really a little unknowable if it's accurate. There was apparently no shower curtain in his apartment when it was air quotes raided, and that led all of us to assume or think perhaps that they took the shower curtain out so he could wrap himself in it while driving away allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, if he was being that clever and knew that he would be covered in blood and needed a way to escape cleanly, how can you do that?
One of the documents that just came out there. We were presented with the selfie that he took in the bathroom that morning, and if you look in the corner, you can see like a liner that looks brand new.
Yeah, like it stills the folds in it, right, Yeah, it looks.
Like it was in that fold that you get right out of the packaging, you know. Also another haunting detail that I just have been stuck on is that in the hours after the murders, before the bodies were discovered, according to this dateline leak, he had been calling home to dad, to Brian Coburger was calling his beloved father back in Pennsylvania. Those were pretty extensive calls in the
wee hours. So I bring this up simply to say, either, it's so interesting that if you allegedly committed a murder of four people, you're covered in blood, you're probably frantic and manic.
Is that the time that you call your dad.
And hang on the phone for forty five minutes two separate times, back to back.
Or is it because you're so manic? Are you confessing?
Or are you just feeling like chatty Cathy because you pulled something off and you don't know who else to call. It also puts a lot of you know, suspicion into Dad because you know, we know that he came and picked up Brian and they drove infamously home together for the holidays, got pulled over a few times.
I don't think so yeah, yeah, boy. I'll tell you what, if you've ever made the drive from the east coast to the west, or from the west to the east, you had a lot of time to contemplate a tom if you will, And if you're with somebody in that car, you know you're thinking about, you know, what went wrong, what did I do? Or maybe you're just discussing, you know, the upcoming hockey season. I have no idea, but that's
kind of an interesting top back. And then you got the two stops in Indiana, you know where they're traveling down the road, and so all of that has run through my mind as well. That was an interesting fond relative to this contact he had with Daddy in that bit of that bit of time, I was fascinated by.
I know, my heart, I feel for a parent, like are they given this information and he's in the know, or do you just you know, you just don't think in a million years that your son or a child is capable of something that's not where your brain goes. It's a probably we won't know until trial. But sort of this backdrop that we're seeing, and also the idea that he was Brian Coberger allegedly was googling porn in pornography specifically of people who were, you know, passed out or drugged.
Not great, not a great look.
I wonder when I watch those the bodycam footage, I wonder, is the knife in the car?
Oh?
Because, my goodness, that's all I wonder about that.
I thought that could have been compelled. I thought that maybe the state police had been compelled to do that precise thing, to interview inside the vehicle. Yeah, oh no, we'll see what happens. We'll see what happened.
Know the judge mentioned apostle life. We'll get to that later.
Yeah.
Last licks, anything on the forensics that we've been discussing so far that we have left out so far.
One question burns from me, Joseph, go get a court. Okay, we start, Karen Reid, we got to bring it back. What do you think, please share? What do you think of the forensics in the case, whether it's John.
O'Keefe's arm or his head. I want to hear what you think about the arm.
Okay, well, when the arm my first blush when I was in the first time I ever talked about this case was on Core TV. I came into it blind. They just asked me to appear. And so when I initially saw those injuries on his arm, my mind didn't get a dog at that point in time. And this was months and months and months ago. I hadn't heard the full story at that point in time when I
saw his arm. Based upon car accidents that I worked over the years, they look like they could have been generated by an undercarriage of a vehicle and almost been a defensive posture where your arm bends at the elbow, which remember it's flex there. We think arm goes up in a defensive pace. It's almost a primal response and the underside of the vehicle kind of yeah, yeah, it's yeah, and we we do that. There's a primal course us
that respond to things that kind of defend ourselves. And so I thought he's knocked back and to do this, he defends himself. The only thing though, is that I have not been able to get a good answer, because under the car is one of the filthiest areas anywhere, and you would think that there'd be a lot of transfer, you know, from the undercarriage of a car road dirt, road grime. And I haven't. I haven't seen a.
Lot of evidence of that, No evidence of that, actually, right, Like, yeah, and that's problematic.
Yeah, and what about.
A little problematic that they didn't really go into the house. So if a dead body is found at the bottom of a street or the driveway of a home, it's pretty standard to go and check out the home. No, it seems as though like that didn't really happen quite as thoroughly.
I don't know. You get a warrant, you clear everybody out of the house. You've got a dead body in the front yard. You're getting out of the house. We're getting statements from everybody, and we're going in and we're going to take a look. And they should have known better. They go on and on about cops, cops, cops, you should know better. That's how the process works. This is a death investigation. This wound up with a murder two
charge in addition to a vehicular manslaughter charge. Yeah, it should have been done.
Thank you, josephare up in town exactly, Joseph, you tell them who's boss. Joseph, You're going to come back with us many many times. So final dips, because tomorrow we might have a verdict in the Karen Reed trial. And then obviously also the Diddy trial will continue every day next week. It seems as though where are the celebrities that we've been hearing about. Where are the celebrities the revolving door of big ticket names. They seem to be a no show other than Kanye. We'll get to that,
you know, more on that tomorrow. And then also these latest developments in our hearts are with everybody on this Father's Day, Joseph to you as well. It's been a great show, so thank you everybody for joining us. Make sure you tune in tomorrow. This is true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.