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If you have the Sunday night blues like me, join in because I am so glad we're together tonight. Please call us anytime eight eight eight three one crime because we have a stacked night of headlines. It's June twenty ninth, and listen as we come on the news tonight. We're following a breaking story out of Quardlaine, Idaho, where apparently law enforcement is having some sniper fire go down. Two lives have been lost already, God willing there are no more.
But we will be following that very closely throughout the next few hours. And if you have something to share, please do so by reaching out real time. Also, we have Joseph Scott Morgan, the host of Body Bags, here with us again. He's going to be breaking down all things forensics in the Long Island serial murder case. We're going to be really dissecting the grounds with which the victims were found and then also later in the.
Show Diddy Diddy, Diddy Diddy.
Closing arguments happened on Friday, and the defense rests tomorrow. The jury will actually have Diddy's fate in their hands. And I gotta be honest, I am very divided about how this is gonna go. So again, if you have an opinion, guilty or not guilty, we want to hear from you. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and I head of KT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that every day with Courtney Armstrong and
Body Moven. So body fill us in on where we are with Diddy right now?
Closing arguments Finally, doesn't it seem like it's been forever?
It had however, but it's also seemed really brief.
I mean, it's been what you know, thirty days, but the defense just stopping and sharing nothing is also curious, very curious.
Well, Closing arguments concluded in the Diddy Combs trial, with the defense focusing on really kind of like five basic compartments, Okay, different things, how Diddy's sex life was unconventional but not illegal, right. They denied any organized effort. They insisted that his accusers consent to all the sexual encounters, and they questioned the
truthfulness and motives of the accusers. They also urged the jury to ignore all the emotion and tabloid headlines and focus on the lack of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Right, So this is again, you have to be.
One hundred percent not in ninety nine one hundred percent convinced.
That he's guilty in order to check that guilty box.
Right.
The prosecution did do a short rebuttle afterwards. So that's basically what's going on.
And Monday we'll hear hopefully maybe something from maybe we'll get some questions from the jury. I don't know.
And listen and I will say both the prosecution, which is an all female led you know, legal team of greatness, did a great job. And the defense, you know, by the way, you get what you pay for, they too did an amazing job, right, Like they really came to play and they called it, you know, his ditty's lawyer said it was the tale of tailor two trials, right, you know, like there's a case that's the glorified media version and then there's this other case that's this consenting adults.
You know, maybe it's kinky behavior behind closed doors, but look, is that a crime? And you know you said the perfect word consented. They consented. Is that the same as consenting the entire time? You know, Courtney, I see you like, you know, brushing up there, go ahead.
Because the prosecution it's not just about Ditty's quirky sex life. It is about kidnapping and bribery and sex trafficking, and that is what the prosecution alleges went on for twenty years.
And by the way, like even he agrees with that, you know, even his legal team acknowledge, is like, look, this was not.
Necessarily a great look.
Yes, perhaps he mistreated women, Okay, fine, perhaps he was occasionally violent, Okay, yes, But again, you know, they're also making it an assessment that this has been a big money grab. And by the way, just as we're talking about it, Cassie Ventura, who's the ex girlfriend of Ditty of ten years, who was on the stand for multiple days in her ninth month of pregnancy, you know, they're saying this is just like a money grab for her. She already got the money grab. She had twenty million
for she got I think even thirty million. Well she asks for thirty why she got the money?
Why not go away?
Right?
Why would you have to still speak up? Right?
So it's not a money grab. That money was already grabbed. And you know, listen, well earned and well deserved. In my humble opinion, not that that matters, but I think it's sort of this he said, she said, And then you know, Diddy says again, I'm so curious because again here in the studio it's really divided about the guilty, n guilty.
Curious where you guys are landing today guilty?
Oh well, listen, I'm pretty I feel pretty compelled by the witness testimony. I thought Jane was compelling. I thought Kid Cutty was compelling, and to the root of it all, I thought Cassie was very compelling. Yeah, I think it showed a history and basically a pattern, right of organized efforts to commit crimes.
I mean, that's where you go. I think he's guilty bribery, absolutely guilty.
And I do think that the prosecution has done a really beautiful case, especially in their closing arguments, how they laid everything out point by point. Take the bribery for one, that involves as we all remember that horrible video of Ditty abusing Cassie Venture in the hallway holding his towel. Okay, that happened. The charge is bribery because then one hundred thousand dollars was given to people to squash that and make sure nobody ever sudden it never saw the light
of day, which ultimately happened. But it's the bribery and the acknowledgment that what he did was wrong and he could that makes him culpable to cover up.
And the defense in the closing argument said it was just for bad publicity, argued that Combs paid the hotel guard in twenty sixteen to avoid bad publicity, not to block a police probe. So they addressed that in their closing arguments. They addressed each criticis like each charge in the closing arguments, and I said, I thought.
They did a great job.
But you know, I'm diddy, you know, and I have ten of the greatest lawyers of all time defending me. Look, they did a fantastic job, for sure. He's showing a real like face of strength also apparently in the courtroom. But at its core, do we believe that this guy should get off? I mean, because it's becoming an all or nothing at this point, he could walk, and my fear would be that victims everywhere are going to be less and less.
Likely to speak up. Well, I spoke up. What do you guys think? I think guilty? What do you guys think? Oh? Oh, guilty, guilty.
No jury's going to say guilty. Oh gosh, that's what I'm saying. What I'm saying, the jury's going to say he's guilty.
I think so. I do think so. I do think so too. I want to believe.
So listen, we've been down the rabbit hole and have been listening and watching everything imaginable and apparently, during you know, the defense's closing argument, that jurors were nodding, apparently allegedly, and they seemed very you know, at ease in that Diddy and the judge. Everything was like even the defense attorney, you know, was making some giggles and jokes with the juror. I don't know, it seems like it landed very positively. But again, did they know something that we don't.
That's a good question because he is that defense not putting on an argument is fishy to me.
And was he overcharged? I don't know.
I think I think Rico might have been going too far, but I do think he's guilty of it.
So many questions. We want to hear what you are thinking. Eighty eight three one crime. So give us a call, join our conversation or hit us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.
And we have a talkback right now.
Hi, my name is Sarah.
And in reference to the Diddy case, does his smugnus and the quote strategic plan from the defense to not have any witnesses kind of seems suspicious to anyone else, Like he knows he's getting off, possibly because he may have paid somebody to get off already, and he just knows that that's what's going to happen. I know that's down a conspiracy hole, but I can't help but to think that way.
I just said that. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a conspiracy. I don't think that he's in on anything. I don't think he you know, there's like money under the table or anything like that. I think he's just gotten away with everything his entire life and doesn't expect any repercussions for his bad behavior.
Totally fair and by the way. You know, I Miko, my two cents would be too. And I know being sequesters as jurors is a really big deal.
A It's crazy expensive. Think about it.
Your thirty days, you're in a hotel, you have no phones, you're away from your job. I don't wish that on anyone, or any citizen for that matter. However, in a reco case where people are accusing someone of taking bribes and paying people off and intruding the system, if you will, only in that case do I think being sequestered could
be meaningful. I'm not suggesting at all that the jurors have not done an extraordinary job and haven't been paying attention and of course not paying attention to anything in the media.
That is the rule.
However, it's hard to imagine that no one has said anything to anyone. And I also would have to wonder just to go down this like, you know, rabbit hole of conspiracies. Is it interesting that he hasn't brought one witness? Is that because that one witness could be a rabbit hole with celebrities and in people that he has to
zip it up for or think about that. Here's another theory that I read, not mine But another theory is it possible that Diddy turned on state's evidence and as a result, he knows he may walk in exchange for someone bigger, meaning the rico is under a rico charge of maybe a larger celebrity who may have been at play, or even a larger celebrity than that that may have been at play.
So is because then they would never be able to charge him again with this if because he got off.
Or if he was given immunity.
If he was given immunity, they would dismiss the charges and he wouldn't he would be there would be no jury, there would be he would be you know what I mean, like there wouldn't they wouldn't go through with it.
So is that how it works.
So, in the eleventh hour, right before the defense was about to do closing arguments, if Diddy, for example, and again I'm going on a limb here. If you have an opinion, please join us eight eight eight three one crime. This is not my even personal opinion. This is an opinion of others that I've read, which you know got in my head. So imagine in the aven or did he is like I'm not doing jail time from this point forward, I've had enough, I then turn on somebody else, and therefore I get immunity.
Therefore, I have this very cocky.
Air quotes, arrogant per our talkback that is saying, I know I'm going home in two weeks, if not sooner, and somebody else might take the hit that I've been covering for this whole time.
Is that even possible?
I don't think so, But maybe this is something that we can ask our buddy, Jarrett Farantino, because I know I'm lawyer.
Yeah, I just I don't think.
I think that they would pull the charges and he would get like he wouldn't get acquitted because then if he pulled, if he's like, well ha ha, I just I was just joking around, like I you know, I don't have anybody, They can't. They would never be able to charge him again. Then he just is free as a bird.
I think the defense putting up no witnesses is as simple as really solid legal advice because of what could happen to everyone under cross examination.
I agree.
I mean everyone who is up there think about the job that the defense did on cross They basically put their entire case forth in that way. They don't want to give the prosecution a second bite at the apple.
And by the way, I guess the lead here is like, what's the takeaway? What are we taking from this? I guess the takeaway is like your nothing comes for free. You know, if someone's paying your bills and they don't want to hear from you, you're stuck. And I don't want that to be the case, because we hear a lot about consented and money and all the things that doesn't wash away abuse Listen.
Coming up, we have forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan with us. We're going to be talking about the Long Island serial killer. Then we have a case out of Atlanta's Piedmont Park and do not forget to call us eight a eighty three on crime True Crime Tonight.
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio talk in True Crime all the Time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head of KT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that every day with Courtney Armstrong and body Moven and also soon to be Joseph Scott Morgan, host of the hit podcast Body Bags.
He's going to be breaking down a ton of forensics for us, specifically in the Long Island serial killer case as well as this very disturbing case coming out from Atlanta. You know, we're following closely the new developments happening in Quardlaine, Idaho active shooter. There's a sniper and law enforcement are praying that there are not more casualties, So we'll be
monitoring that throughout the show. And then Diddy, of course, closing arguments ended on Friday, and the jury could hit it tomorrow and we could have a verdict in the next coming days.
Think about it. Fourth of July is upon us. The courts close.
This is like three days and if you're a juror, do you you think to yourself, I have three days to make a decision and then I can be with my family and no more jury duty, or do you you know, think about it for a couple of days, knowing that there's a holiday, and then you have to come back. Who knows, but it does seem as though we're up against a clock, and this case has been on our minds twenty four to seven, so it's pretty amazing that it's just around the bend and we're getting
really mixed signals on what that could look like. So we also are asking to hear from you. Listen, this is your time to weigh in eight eight eight three to one crime. Or if you just want to leave a message, you can download your iHeart app, press the right hand corner and just leave a message and boom. You can join us on the show and just give your opinion. In fact, we have a talkback right now.
He did he those couple of charges they dropped? Does that mean that if he is found innocent of the other stuff, will they be able to recharge him with the ones that they dropped later on if they can pile more evidence against him.
Great question, great ut question. I don't know. I want to say that if they drop, if they drop.
Things or not, they're not going to be in the charging document and therefore their rechargeable. But they would probably be done at the state level, right because they would only be like two things, and those two things would not be RICO right, so there would be separate charges at stay I listen, I'm not a lawyer, so you know, take it pretty close.
But I think pretty close.
If I was meeting a lawyer and my brother wasn't available, you'd be next on the list. Oh you know, all that to be said, listen, is that perhaps strategy why the you know, prosecution slimmed down the charges aiding and embedding the possible the intent of you know, they did they streamlined this, which got a lot of talkback of like, oh my goodness, it must mean that they don't have a case or does that mean they have the option to still charge of that part at a later date?
Courtney, go ahead.
Yeah.
My understanding is that as long as the files were dropped without prejudice, then they can be refiled, assuming the statute of limitations hasn't been passed and there is sufficient evidence, and if it's with prejudice, they cannot be refiled.
That's my understanding.
Hopefully we can get an attorney in to confirm.
Because I just don't know that it would be done in federal court.
Fair but still court is court right and for sure, by the way, speaking of court, Courtney, that's a really interesting point. So is that possible if they slim down the charges? Therefore, those charges may still apply at a later date should he be found not guilty. And my other question would be should he found be found not guilty, does he just go home? Yeah, yep, Wow, I know, silence, what's the one thing he said on radio?
But we're all sort of taken by that.
He'll walk to two places, He'll walk home or you know, go to two places home or back to where he's being held.
Wow, right, I.
Mean yeah, right, that, I mean, there's nothing. If he's found guilty or not guilty of all charges, go home. If he's found guilty of one though of like the sexual trafficking, which is I believe a separate charge because he's got the RICO and then the sex trafficking, Yeah, then he'll go.
You know, he's going to be Listen, he's going to be guilty of one of them. Just last words.
I honestly don't have a strong feeling on it one way or the other. And again my heart is with I have, you know, the jurors and that they are, you know, sifting through things really carefully. How about these recent charges that just popped up with Justin Combs. That's you know, Diddy's eldest son, and Justin has now been brought up on charges as well, allegedly allegedly, allegedly he lured a woman from a woman from Louisiana he met on Snapchat. He encouraged her to send some risque photos.
She did very quickly. He Justin allegedly responded saying, you know, please come to LA you can meet my dad, and promised her lots of access to career help. Apparently she was a you know, a thriving star to be and when she arrived in Los Angeles, she was met by a gaggle of humans that were wearing masquerade masks. How scary in and of itself, and she claims she was drugged and raped. And these charges just dropped. Is that scary?
Does the apple fall far from the tree? Or is it just a crazy coincidence that on the eve of the time that he may be released, that suddenly Diddy's eldest son is also brought up on charges. And by the way, Diddy is also said to be a part of this raping. Apparently Justin referred to pops end quotes and that in her opinion, this anonymous victim assumes that was didty himself.
What do you make of that? I mean the time, I mean the timing.
Could also be that this that this Jane Doe saw that the trial was coming on and perhaps that gave her some courage, if that's the correct word, to file.
Her own charges, right. I don't know, just a thought, but it has uit me a very good point. What da, what are the exact charges that he's being charged with all kinds?
And by the way, interestingly enough, just aside from that, So Justin's the eldest, and he's been in court, We've seen him. You know, he's very devoted to his father. The next up in line is Christian, and Christian is the birth child of Diddy and his ex now deceased Kim Porter. And Christian was also brought up on charges back in April of twenty twenty four for allegedly sexually assaulting a person on a yacht that they were partying on. She was like one of the stewardesses on this boat.
And those charges have kind of happened in the background. So that's a lot of Diddy men being brought up on charges.
You're listening to True Crime tonight where we talk true crime all the time. I'm body move in and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we're talking about all things Diddy. If you want to weigh in with your thoughts. Give us a call at eight eight eight thirty one crime, or use the iHeartRadio app and send us a talk back message. Stephanie, you seem to really kind of have your finger on the pulse of this.
Do we know if these are criminal charges or criminal charging with suit?
Oh?
So they all charge charge that are being pursued, you know, Listen, obviously no one's been arrested. Maybe the timing is by some said to be suspicious or by others said to be perfect timing. Is this just a world that had very loose boundaries and those boundaries are now not okay? And the more we talk about it, perhaps victims are realizing that that wasn't okay. And to Courtney's earlier point, maybe they're getting the courage right. Or is this, you know,
I meetiate a blast. I obviously I don't know the answer, but I do find it all super interesting and I'm so glad we get to talk about it.
So body, here's the information I have on what was what is alleged? So the suit was filed, not just against.
The suit was filed. Yeah, so it's a civil suit.
Let's see see see what I'm saying, right, there's the cops it was. I think you might be right that it was civil. Let me, we'll need to check back.
Discussion on that is a real because civil would mean money, right and criminal would mean jail time.
Right. So what's what's going on here? Alleged?
So it's against Justin also Sean Combs and the business Combs Enterprises and bad Boy Entertainment, so that who who's The suit was filed against a civil suit. It claims sexual assault and battery, gender violence, and negligent supervision.
Okay yep.
And the lawsuit demands a jury trial and payment of damages, including for quote future and past lost earnings.
It's a tough one.
Courtney would pasties was civil initially m hm, So we'll have to keep an eye on it.
What do I think?
I think this sounds the details that have been given out seem incredibly similar to stuff we have heard played out in the current trial, just because Justin said pops, assuming that is true, I don't know that that's enough to embroil Diddy.
That seems tenuous to me.
But again, I don't have many details, but I think it is a very believable story.
Of course, I mean, the detail, but with the masks and whatnot, the details.
Are very like.
Is that a thing I'm picturing eyes wide shut?
Is that a thing.
Who's showing up to a Oh, I'm here to be discovered as a hip hop star? And I go into a room and everyone's wearing masks and they're giving me something to drink, which drugs me. And then suddenly I'm you know, part of an air quotes Gangbang? Is that the scariest thing you've ever heard? Or is that a movie that we've watched? I don't know the answer, but again, I'm really just, you know, grateful we get to discuss it.
Well, I am too, and I hope that you all stick around because coming up we're going to be talking about the Long Island serial killer with the forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan.
I cannot best.
In the business a thing, So stick around and we'll get into that conversation, and then Joseph is going to be diving into the Suzanne Morphew case with us. This is a really important case in near and dear to my heart, we're going to be breaking down the forensic evidence and the prosecution has on her husband Barry Morphew, who has just been re arrested, and don't forget give us a call at eight thirty one Crime with your thoughts on any of tonight's stories. We really want to
hear from you. We love the interaction. Keep it here, True Crime Tonight, stick around.
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of course, with body Movin, Courtney Armstrong and forensics expert and family to the show. Joseph Scott Morgan is here. He's going to talk to us about all things the Long Island serial killer as well as a real disturbing case in Atlanta. Joseph, we cannot get to you fast enough. Welcome, welcome back. It's so good to have you here on this Sunday. And although on a.
Very grisly topic, you are a breath of fresh air. Yeah.
So this is a trigger warning, so just please hear that. We're going to discuss some disturbing specifics in the Rex Humorman case. Some is of a violent and sexual nature, so listener discretion strongly advised. The alleged Long Island serial killer, Rex Huerman is alleged to have depositive four his victims along a place called Gilgo Beach. It's along Ocean Parkway. Two we're in a wooded area. One is in Manorville, New York. And he is also suspected to be involved
in eleven further deaths. Question mark if there's more, but that's that is what's alleged right now. And these murders happened between nineteen ninety three and two thousand and eleven, so he has now been linked to seven of the eleven murders. And Joseph, we would love clarity. Tell us about the victims. They get lost in the sauce quote Stephanie, who.
Were the visay to do? Unfortunately, and that's that's always the case. Hey, I'm going to give you a big reveal right now about myself in my career when when I was practicing in Atlanta and New Orleans, I worked several series of serial killings. These are all unrelated, they're all different, Okay. The one commonality, and people have heard this for years and years, So one commonality is that
every single series I ever worked involved sex workers. There's no exception to that, and this is no different in that sense, because they are the for in our population. I take exception with anybody that dismisses these women because they that many of them the end of their room, all right, they have no other choice. It's people, you know. People will many times say, oh, well, they always had
a choice. You haven't lived a life of these people of living and unfortunately they cross paths with a monster. And so with these victims, what we can say is that they were very vulnerable. They had this commonality in these occupational choices that they made along the way at Hureman allegedly saw that and saw that as a way to get to them so that he could satisfy this
urge that he has. And with all of these victoms, the best that we can kind of come up with is that some kind of arrangement had been made to meet and you know, this idea of burner phones comes in. But then we come back to what I refer to as the hunting ground. The hunting ground is not really a hunting ground. It's more like a deposit area. And we can learn a lot about a serial perpetrator by virtue of this. They swim these areas that they are
very familiar with, These are the ultimate control freaks. They want to be able to control every aspect of this life and this process that they're working through, acting out, doing, interacting with these fantasies. Most of them have this incredible fantasy life. That's why they take possession of many of the elements or many items.
That these people.
You know, that's another thing that some of these women were actually missing things. They were missing things and guess what the idea is that you can go back and you can take these things if you're a perpetrator and live through them. BTK did it. There's a number of other ones that have done it. They're trophy takers and they're easy to steal from, and not just their things,
but obviously their wives. And when we think about where human comes from this Long Island area and he knows this roadway, you know, the one thing that really jumps to mind are these four bodies that are found in quick succession along the roadway where they're just kind of deposited a long the way and they're found in and you know what the wild thing about it is the very first one is like out of the four, the so called Golgol four, it's dumb luck You've got a
cop that's out there that is actually trying to train his dog, and that dog hits on these remains absolutely mind So.
Basically, he's going to put his the bodies the victims, right, He's going to put them in an area he's familiar with, because the worst thing that could happen is he gets lost or you know, he goes down a dead end and is trapped somehow, So he's going to be you know, these people are going to and I say these people by I mean the killer, they're going to put their victims somewhere where they're absolutely familiar with.
Is what you're saying, right Like.
Yeah, that's familiarity, and it's it's something because they want to continue to do I don't know, you know, this is maybe too exstential out of it. I've also wonder are they doing this? Are they doing this in order to not be caught? Are they doing this so that they can continue doing what they do? You see what I'm saying, it's not that they're afraid of being caught, it's the fact that they don't want it to come to an end because they continue to play this out.
These four victims, in particularly the.
Gil go for now.
There's several women obviously that we're talking about. One other interesting thing is that when these women were found, they were wrapped in burlap, and this is camouflage burlap.
It kind of lens into the weeds.
I'm sorry, the burlap kind of blends into the scenery there right, because it.
Does because this this particular type of burlap is camouflage. You want to hear something interesting about burlap. Of course, burlap is actually associated with the old term called sackcloth, which if you ever went to Sunday school, sackcloth and ashes their mourning people put sackcloth on. And I've always found that interesting about these four particular things. It's like it's like the cost of the poor wear sackcloth, and he's using this to cover their bodies with and then
to posit them along this way. It always going to chill up my spine relative to this.
Wow.
Yeah, no, that's very interesting. I wonder if that has any meaning. I wonder if that has any like religious meaning, like is are they sacred or.
I don't know, because not all the bodies were wrapped in burlap, but those those four actually were, and of course it was camouflage and they were deposited there.
Of course, you're listening to True Crime Tonight, where we talk true crime all the time. I'm body moving here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong, and we are here with the wonderful Joseph Scott Morgan, and we are talking all things Rex Huerman and the Gilgo Beach murders. If you want to weigh in, give us some call at eight eight eight thirty one Crime or hit the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.
We would love to hear from you.
I think it's such an interesting question if it could be, you know, some kind of symbolism or something. But also my thought is like when I've had my yard redone, I feel like there's burr lap underneath that deals with the vegetation. So it also would not be an odd thing to see.
Yeah, no, it wouldn't be. But the burlap that he's using this is interesting. I was having a discussion with someone I can't remember now, but you know, he is allegedly an avid an Avid duck hunter, Okay, and I've always wondered if he had used to being an Avid duck hunter as kind of a cover for all of this if he gets caught out in this area. Hey man, I'm just going out taking a look where I'm going to set up a blind. And he's got the camouflage burlap,
he's carrying this truck. You know, he can go out there and kind of ease into the story about all this and you know, talk to the cops. You know, I've often thought about that as well. Or was it just a matter of convenience. Well, you know, I've got this stuff laying around, I'm going to use it. But
here's the thing about it. Burlap is very porous. So if you're wrapping the body in burlap, what's your point Because you're not trying to keep blood or biological materials off of everything, because it's going to seep through, you know, I mean, Corney you had mentioned you see it in landscaping. If you pick up a piece of burlap, you'll actually have dirt that will actually fall through the bottom of it.
So it's not really practical if you're trying to blood or any other kind of decompositional fluid or anything like this. I just other than it's masking.
Something, I wonder what it means. I'm so curious. So we should talk about the individual victims.
You had mentioned the Gilgo four, and is that Melissa Bartholomey. She was found at Gilgo Beach in December of twenty ten when an officer was on the training exercise. Right, She was found wrapped in burlap. And then two days later, Megan Waterman was found in Gilgo Beach wrapped in burlap. And then two days after that, Amber Costello was found wrapped in burlap, and then two days after that, Maureen.
Brainerd Barnes was found.
She was not found wrapped in burlap, but she was found bound with the leather belts.
Right, So, leather belt with a buckle that allegedly ties back to the accused, rex Humor Men's head, her initials on it, on the buckle, and that allegedly is rex Humor Men's grandfather.
If I'm not mistaken, right, is Joseph? Is that accurate?
Yeah? Yeah, that is that. There's a familial attachment there, and I find that quite interesting that this would you know, you know, I don't know about you guys. My grandpa's not around me long. If I had a belt that was associated with my grandpa, I'm thinking this thing's going to be sacred to me. I'm not going to take it and just you know, use it in some manner without it being significant. Now, I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it. I don't think you are
for me, I get you right on. Yeah, it's just kind of an odd thing, you know, that that little bit, you know.
Kind of comes in.
I have a question on that front, too, Joseph. You guys know, I'm from the area, so I grew up on Long Island, not too too far this will happened, you know. Where the bodies were being discovered was in Nassau County on Long Island, which is about forty five minutes to an hour outside of New York City. I grew up a little further out east. But I'm telling you, this is a beautiful place where again neighbors know one another. It's it's a lovely place.
To grow up.
Shout out to Sachem High School. These things, you know, literally don't happen there. And the idea that girls were being found in burlap bags again and again and again, and now we know that there was a potential torture chamber allegedly found in this particular house where the accused Rex Humerman and his wife and two children lived. Is it possible that more than one of these women were held at the same time and then disposed of?
I don't know.
I think that I think a lot of that goes to how rich is his fantasy life was and what he had constructed, because you know, it's never it's never as simple as I'm just going to do one thing. It has to be expanded out from that many times for a lot of these folks, and so they're going to go very broadly. Did he hold two at a tom did he have three at a time?
We're not done talking about less.
Give us a call at eighty eight eight thirty one Crime Breaking News.
We have been following this closelyse the top of the hour, there's been a sniper really in Quardelaine, Idaho, And we initially reported that there were two lost souls and we didn't know what was happening next, and now we are hearing more.
Courtney tell us, Yeah, this just out. The International Association of Firefighters. They have confirmed in a statement that two of its members were killed by this sniper. There is another in surgery, and this all relates to several hours ago. It was one twenty one Mountain time that firefighters responded to a call for a brush fire when they arrived
a sniper or snipers. I think not everything is incredibly clear right now started firing, and again there are also unknown outside of those three unknown casualties in this moment, So we will continue following. The news is literally coming out in bits and pieces, and it's incredibly.
Horrible, unbelievable.
And also, we know we were just discussing this earlier, and if you miss any of the first hour, catch us right after on the podcast. Joseph back to the serial killer. I know we were knee deep in it.
Yeah, I want to hear more about this memorialization of the victims.
Yeah, well, for years, you know, people talk about the concept of face covering. Face covering is something that we see in homicide cases many times, where if somebody has a connection with an individual that they have murdered, they'll covered face because they can't bear seeing that person's face, even in death. And so you take that and kind of expand that a bit, and you begin to think about memorialization of the dead, and we can learn a
lot about killers and how they treat the dead. Sounds kind of odd, I know, but how they if they're using if they kill an individual and kind of toss them like, we'll have what are called dumps where we have body dumps where you'll find a person lying in a ditch along inside of the road and their body's twisted in an odd way. It's not that the perpetrator
position them that way. Many times, it's because they simply wanted to put as much distance as they could between them and the body as quickly as possible, and they roll them out of the car. That's different than if you walk the body back into the woods. You lay them out, maybe you cover their face, but rocks or sticks or whatever it is. And so you know, you go back to the so called Gilga four and you see that they're wrapped. But we have other individuals that
have been found that are treated differently. We've got a couple of bodies. We've got one young woman who's found literally and I hate to say this, this is terrible, but she's found bent back at the knees and she's been decapitated. And that's a horrible image. But we have to look at that clinically and think about who is this the same person doing this? Because this is a lot different than wrapping a body up and depositing that body on side of the road. Then you have another
another individual that is found that has been dismembered. Now you begin to get into that and you begin to think about, you know, how that looks, how it appears.
You're right about that. Well, later we're going to be inviting you to ask questions about any of the cases that we've covered tonight. He did he Suzan Morphew Lisk Give us a call eight eight eight thirty one crime, or use the talkbacks on the iHeart Radio app. Stay right here True Crime Tonight.
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lai Decker and I head of KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries. And I get to do that with true crime producer and host Courtney Armstrong and crime analysts and host Body move In and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan.
You'll also know him from the hit podcast Body Bags.
We've been talking a lot about the Long Island serial killers, so we will continue to do so. Boddy, where should we start?
Well, I kind of want to talk about more about the memorialization of the victims. So in the previous hour we were talking with Joseph Scott Morgan about the significance of how the bodies are left and meaning behind pretty much everything, right, and so I kind of Joseph, I hate to do this to you, but can you kind of go.
Over this again? Yeah, what is the what is memorialization? What does it mean? And what are we talking about here?
Well? I think probably for most people memorialization would come down to the idea of honoring the dat I know that sounds really bizarre when you're thinking about a serial killer, but how it actually puts the value on the individual that has been the victim promisid You know, how much value do they assign to that individual? And value sometimes is tied up in anything in life. You think about Todd, right,
how much time did they spend with the body? Did these individuals that have the psychothology going on, do they find themselves invested enough with this individual to actually clean a body. We've had that happen many times, redress the body, perhaps take things from the body, and then to take the body and almost prepare it in their own way, and then they have to select the spot for depositing the body. Is their goal to hide the body or is their goal to have it kind of sequestered to
the point where somebody could stumble upon it. Because a lot of these people that perpetrate these crimes work on the idea of a shock factor. You know, they want to shock people that come up and discover the remains. Can you imagine walking down the road and you suddenly find a decomposing individual vinyl side or this very shocking for them, right, And so there's meaning and literally everything
that they do said this memorialization of the dead. It's not like they just drag them off and kind of throw them away like rubbish. They prepare the body, that wrap the body, and then they deposit the body. In this case with go gofore he's allegedly going back to the same spot. I mean there we within feet guys,
think about that, within feet of one another. That takes a certain level of hutsbah in order to do that courage if you will, I guess, however you define that, you know, and to lay them up because this is a big risk that he's taking to do that. So I think a lot can be read into that was
he rushed? Do any of these cases give you the impression that it was something that was rushed, that you know that maybe he was caught or thought he was going to be caught so he had to get rid of the body really quickly, or did he take his time? Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to pair that up with the travels of pureman's family perae body. You know, where were they on these dates when these individuals last
were seen. Does that mean he took more time with the body and what was done to the body in its anti mortem which means pre death state as opposed to the post morton state, Because that's another big thing here, and from a forensic standpoint, it's going.
To be invaluable.
Pay close attention here because we've heard this term come up in several lease cases about dismemberment. Dismemberment. In my experience working cases like this, the one thing I'm looking for are tool marks. What type of instrumentality was utilized in order to take a body and literally butcher it.
As horrific as that is, you have to get past it and look at it scientifically and say, are these tool marks the same on this body as they are on the other body is an individual using a chainsaw, a circular saw, a hack saw, carpenter.
Saw, and Joseph.
All of this.
Speaks to pattern I would imagine when trying whether it's the tools or similarities. For example, in the Go Go four, Melissa Bartholomey, Megan Waterman, Amber Costello, and Marine Brainerd Barnes, they were all found within days of each other, and yes, three were found wrapped in Verlin. Maureen Brainerd Barnes was not found wrapped in burr lap, but was found within the same period, but she was found with leather belt that potentially allegedly ties back to Humerman.
So that's the four.
And then going back to the earliest victim who was found, this was in nineteen ninety three and this was Sandra Caristia and her remains were found by hunters, Like you said, imagine just you're going out to have a fun hunt day. They found this poor woman. It was in a wooded area in log Island and it was about sixty miles from Gilgo Beach and it was on her body that hairs were found that linked her to Humerman all these years later.
So yeah, Stephanie, I was.
Just going to say just one little shout out to the moms of these victims, because honestly, this one unsolved.
I'm from the area for years.
Honestly, if it wasn't for the moms of these victims keeping them alive in the media's eyes, they would and they band together at some point and really rallied because police were not connecting these dots for whatever reason. And there's so much speculation around this, but regardless, in my heart, I believe these would not have been solved murders if not for the loving parents and mothers specifically that came
together to fight for their daughter's justice. Sorry, Joseph, I just had to throw that in because it's so unique.
So I concur I couldcur completely with you. Families play such a such a big part rather in solving hamsas many times, particularly those that are they're open, you know, not just the idea of getting justice, but just just giving a inertia to the case to move it along. And here's the odd thing about it is, it's not like we're in the city. Okay, we're out of Long Island. How many of these cases does it take until a light bulb goes off above your head and says, hey, look,
we've got these similarities that are occurring out here. How is it that nobody's putting.
Two or two together?
And you know, again, jurisdictionally, you might have some divide there. You might not have as much connectivity because one the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. And also people retire, people move on with their lives, and some of these things are lost.
To the this time.
Well, all the victims were from different different areas too. They weren't all from they weren't from Long Island, so you know they're from the city, right. I think that has I think it has a little bit to do with it too, because you know, Long Island's just you know, sitting out there. They don't realize they've got these four victims laying in gog Beach right in Manhattan, You're right, and wherever else they're they're missing people I don't know.
Yeah, And that's interesting also this bit that these women, many of them did, originate from the city and then they're they're brought out to an area which the city toilers in New York considered to be very rural. You know, we're going to Long Island. It's like a huge trip there. It's like a part in the rural area, but the point of origin, the genesis for this is the city and they're coming out there. The one commonality is that they're on the same trade, right, and.
They're all twenty two to twenty seven years old too. They're all fairly young women.
And petit yeah, and they're petite.
Giant.
He's a giant man, right, He's humongous, like he's really it's like six seven or something.
How tall is he? I can't remember. He's tall.
He's incredibly tall and imposing and an eyewitness we can talk about later described him, I believe as an ogre. You are listening to true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong with Body Move and Stephanie Leidecker, and gracing our presence tonight is forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We'd really love you to join the conversation, so give us a call. We're at eighty eight three to one crime or send us a talkback
super easy on the iHeart app. You go to the right hand corner, press on the microphone and then you are on the show. So Joseph, we're talking about commonalities obviously, and we started touching. You started touching earlier. On decapitation, So, Jessica Taylor. She was found in two thousand and three, again an unsuspecting woman walking her dog. This was in Manorville, New York. And the poor woman she had been decapitated.
Both of her arms had been severed, bloody elbows, and it's had two had been obliterated by a sharp object. Back to you talking about objects. So how rare or not is it for the same murderer allegedly to choose to decapitate and do this to one woman and not the others.
I don't know that I can necessarily speak about frequency here, but I think that one thing that is of note court in the idea here is that it's messy business. I know that seems rather an obvious statement. However, you have to have privacy, you have to have access, assuming that electrical instruments are used, you have to have access to electricity. This is not something you're going to do along the side of the road. You have to have time,
and it's a developed skill set. As gruesome as that sound, you know, people that walk in that do butchery, for instance, you know for a living, they just don't do that the first day. It's a learning curve, So it would take time in order to develop a skill set like this, and you have to have the want to in order to be it to do it. A lot of people think that they could do it. A lot of people have said, well, yeah, it's very simple.
No, it's not.
Because most of the people that are caught as a result of physical evidence that's left behind that results from a dismemberment, many times it's because they don't understand how to do it the most efficient way. They don't know the first thing about human anatomy, what's the easiest way to go about that? And these are the sort of things we think about in forensics many times. I think
that probably profilers think about that as well. But you need time and you need privacy, And that case in particular is kind of a touchstone in all of this. Where did he do this? How long did he have with his body to go this deep into interesting?
And that goes back to what you were saying with you know, potentially mapping out Humerman's family's travels and how long he had if maybe his whole family was on an extended trip when one of these poor women were taking end of it, it.
Has to be yeah, and again remember the checklist. The check is one thing that you need to always.
Keep in mind.
Is that statement, that comment that he made playtime And that's always going to ring in my ears, you know, the first time I heard somebody talk about it after that list was was released. And what does playtime mean? Well, playtime for us might mean something completely different to somebody that engages in this kind of averant behavior, like it could be something that is so so out of bounds that we can't imagine it. But for him it could very well be his own personal reaction.
Can you briefly remind me of the checklist? What are you referring to? Was that something that Huerman had.
A Well, it's something that was recovered digitally, you know, that had been banked by him, and it's a checklist, you know, like the older I've gotten a knee checklist in my life, so just to make sure I'm going to cover everything. But for somebody like this, it's trying to dodge dodge the police or trying to keep them off sent so that he doesn't. I mean, we're talking about we're talking about mid level forensic skills here, where he's trying to defeat anything that we might do going
out to the scene to recover evidence. He's trying to defeat that preemptively. And so that's how much thought he's putting into wearing gloves, cleaning up after himself, all that sort of.
Yeah, real, I mean, I don't even know what to say beyond a real life dexter.
Do not forget.
If you miss any part of the show, you can always catch the podcast and we want to hear from you. Give us a call. We're at eighty eight three on Crime, or you can get with us on socials. We are at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. But now body, let's get into it.
Okay, So I want to talk about Suzanne Morphew. So let me so, Barry Morphew, this is such a complicated story to get into. It's a it's a really big case and we're definitely going to be talking about it a lot. Suzanne Morphew's husband, Suzanne Morphuw, went missing in twenty twenty.
Sorry, I have to get this out.
She went missing in twenty twenty and her husband was arrested in twenty twenty one for her murder. Okay, and he was let go in twenty twenty two because you know, the prosecutors didn't have enough evidence and they were not comfortable, you know, moving forward with the case, and there was some tomfoolery going on with the prosecutor, so they dismissed
the charges without prejudice. Okay, so he could be recharged again, Okay, So he got They they found her body a year after that, in September of twenty three September of twenty twenty three, and charges have been re established for her husband, Barry more few Okay. So it's kind of a long, complicated, you know, timeline. But I want to talk to Joseph, thank god he's here, because I want to know what makes this different this time around? What makes us different
this time around from Barrie's first rest. We know that the body, right that clearly that's the big difference, right, But what is the most compelling forensic details that we know about Joseph that you can tell us that led prosecutors, you think, to re establishing charges for him?
Two pieces here. I think, first off, they have a team of forensic anthropologists, a team that consists of forensic anthropologists, person that studies human skelet or remains, a forensic entomologist that studies bugs, and a forensic botanist discub that you know, understands the local flora, all right, because in forensics, we'll look for pollen deposited on clothing, like, for instance, where Suzanne's remains were found, she has a particular type of
pollen that's not associated with that area. That gives you that's a clue for them, you know, try to understand what the orgy, you know, why does she have this particular type of pollen on her clothing. So you bring all of these into the mix. But the conclusion that they arrived at relative to her remains, which were in a state of skeletonization or had been skeletonized, was that more than likely her body did not arrive in the condition in which it was found in this location. Just
let that sink in for a second. In other words, that means that she may, according to them, may have been allowed to decompose somewhere else and then she was redeposited in this location.
In fact, now that you're speaking about that, we have a talk back regarding this case.
Can we go and play that talk about?
Yes?
Sure, Hey, this is Judy in Vegas.
I have a question about the Colorado case.
Does the forendics show that the mom was moved after her body decomposed?
I think that'd be interesting to figure out.
So she asked that was She asked if does the forensics tell us if the body was moved after she decomposed? So it's kind of what you were just talking about, right, Joseph, she was moved?
Correct?
Yeah, and great question, Jody, You're right, And I think that that's look that that's going to play into this case as it begins to develop.
You know, I wonder when he got released, when the when the charges were dropped, did he get a wild inclination in his head to move her body?
Yeah, because you do have people that will go out and remove remains. I've had cases where people have had dug up remains that they buried and moved them to another location. That's not fiction. It's not like you see.
That on a movie.
He has children with her, like, this is the mother of his children who was allegedly out on mother's day of all days. Yeah, and what he faked a bike accident and then suddenly decided to dispose of her body, get arrested, get released.
And then he went and changed the.
Location or dug her up or redressed her like. All of that just sounds so unbelievably sick.
It's hard to wrap our brains around it does.
And I got to tell you, for me personally, from a forensics perspective, I am just as interested in the location where she was initially located in I am relative to where she was found. And I think that there's potential to find some evidence, some residual evidence at that location. And one other thing I think is important here, how intact worthy skeletal remains, because you know, with skeletal remains
we lose bits and pieces. We've got all of these bothes in our body structure of the hands alone, there's a chance you can lose things along the way.
Oh gosh, it's terrible to think about. This is true crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Body Moved, and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker, and we are talking with the lovely Joseph Scott Morgan about the Suzanne Morphy murder.
If you have a.
Question or opinion, give us a call at eighty eight thirty one Crime, or tell us your thoughts on the talkbacks using the heart radio app Joseph. One thing we talked about this past week was some new information about a needle cap that was found in the dryer. What do you think that says about him? What does that tell us?
Do you think?
I don't know.
I think you need defense. Attorney would say, so what, he's got a needle cap in his pocket. You know that in his clothes. You know that are found in the dryer. He found it in the yard. He just picked it up. Doesn't like trash and jar Okay, so all right, that's the story you're going with. But you think about this, this compound that's being utilized, which, by the way, correct me if I'm wrong. You guys might
have a bit more insight. I think he was like one of the few people in state that actually had access to this and the one may have been brought in from somewhere else, This bam compound and nothing for everybody with the details that you've got a drug compound that literally can be used as it's used in anesthesia, anti anxiety, and also like a muscle relaxing. She anybody that's hit with the stuff, and it's made to use for medium sized game, you know, like a mule deer or a white tail.
I guess you could use it on an help you had to.
This little lady. She's not gonna she doesn't have someboll's chance in hell if if this is injected in or she's going out. Now I'm not saying it's lethal. What I am saying though, she's going to go into that deep dark place that we can all identify with if we, any of us, have ever had surgery you have any control over it, that's what.
Would have happened.
And the idea that there was a dark gun which this is administered with, you know, like you could to animal or a dark gun functioning dark gun. Yeah, that was there. And it can also be administered with a hypodermic needle. It doesn't have to go directly into the venus system. It can actually go uh its eye am which is intramuscular, which means it can be ejected injected right into say the fleshy part of the body like the buttock, and then you're going down, it's going to
be lights out. So the fact that he had that needle cap is I don't I'm not going to say it's damning, but it's a if you think about a jigsaw puzzle, it might be one of those little pieces that where's that other piece? Oh?
Here it is.
It's the needle cap and that slips into the spot.
And now she would be unconscious, is that right? She wouldn't.
She wouldn't have any consciousness of her like, she wouldn't be like paralyzed with thoughts.
Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent question, I think I've heard again looking at Yeah, I don't. I don't know either, because we don't know what kind of DOSAG may have been administered. And if I can just kind of chime in on this very briefly, this BAM compound has actually been found in her skeletal remains. Now understand this because there's gonna be a lot of questions about this. Did he O d her allegedly? Well, we can't determine that
with skeletal remains. All we can do with this is say we have what are called in toxic forensic toxicology, you have what's called a qualitative amount and a quantitative amount. We can give you a qualitative say, if you do a core sample of the bone and you spin it down, you can actually say, okay, this compound is there, but I can't tell you how much is there. In medicine, you have things like therapeutic levels and lethal levels, and
that's a quantitative amount. We can merely qualify it. I don't know if anybody that can actually say that they can quantitate that amount. Maybe somebody has a magic insight into that, but as far as I know, you can't put a specific number on.
But what we do know is that the medicine metabolized, which means and correct me if I'm wrong, Joseph, because I need it. But what that means is that she was alive long enough for her body to process some of the drug, right.
Yeah, yes, absolutely right, that it was an uptake into her system and it actually made I think, I think probably into the bone barrow.
Oh god.
So I wonder if he knocked her out and like transported her somewhere, you know, maybe to the hotel room or the bleach. So he was supposed to be at work, and he was at this hotel room, and when workers I think went into the hotel room or the police or somebody went into the hotel room. It smelled of bleach, right, so I wonder if.
He transported her.
Yeah, oh that's horrific.
Stick around next because we're going to be talking more with Joseph Scott Morgan. And there's an unsolved murder in Atlanta's Piedmont Park and don't forget give us a call at eight eight eight thirty one Crime with your thoughts on any of Tonight's stories. Keep it here some kind.
Of welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and I head up KT Studios where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that with crime analyst Body move In and crime producer and host Courtney Armstrong. And we are here with forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, who's breaking.
All scary things down for us. Listen.
If you want to join us, please call eight eight eight three one Crime, or you could always hit us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook, and you could also do a talk back if you download the iHeart app. You just push the right hand button and then you just leave a little message and then we'll play that message in the show and then
we can respond to real time. So, Joseph, I know you've been following closely a case in Atlanta, very disturbing, So trigger alert for all, Joseph, take it away.
Yeah, So this case is something that has been ongoing. This is an unsolved hom side that I'm referring to, and this goes all the way back to July twenty eighth, twenty twenty one, and obviously we're approaching I guess the fourth anniversary of arguably one of the most single horrific homicides in the Atlanta area in years and years. And what I'm talking about is the murder of a young lady named Katie Janice, who is out walking her dog in a location that's very familiar to people that are
from the Atlanta area. It's called Piedmont Park. It's kind of like I think Atlanta's like to refer to it as their central park if you will. Weekends, you know, you've got families out there with kids walking dogs, people jogging, all these sorts of things. But on this particular night, Katie had gone out with her.
Dog to take the dog for a walk.
She'd gotten off work she worked as a bartender. And the next thing you know, Katie is found along the pathway there in Piedmont Park and she has over fifty five sharp force injuries to her body. Her dog has been brutally stabbed to death as well. And this is if I remember correctly. This dog is a pit bull. So there's so much to be red. Yeah, they are in other pit bulls that are sweet, you know, sweet,
and a lot of it depends upon the die. I think it's like any dog, you know, real nasty reputation. But yeah, they can be just little angels. I'm a big dog person, so yeah, I mean, and to me, when you can kill a pit bull, you can get close enough in with a knife to do that. I don't know. To me, that's as was there a familiarity between the perpetrator and the dog, because you know, if you're out with your master, dogs out with their masters, they're going to protect their masks.
You're going to protect their master at all costs. Yeah, that's a getting they.
Will, Yeah, and the dog was found a bit of a distance, not along all ways away from Katie. And still to this day they don't have any or at least they have not released any kind of firm answers here. But I think one of the things that this really speaks to is the degree to which she suffered. This is a torturous death, because it's not like it's merely notice I said that she sustained fifty sharp horse injuries.
I didn't say stabloids. There were stab wounds, but these are also co mingled with incised wounds.
Either.
In my opinion, at least, there's there's a strong element here of disfigurement, of sexualization. The breasts have been sliced and the face has been sliced all the way down to the gum line, if you will. She was disfigured. And I think probably the worst part about this when they finally did the exam on her body, it was discovered that a word had actually been carved into her chest and abdomen. And again that's you know, who does
that in public? This is a public area. Anybody could have been walking by who feels that comfortable doing this level of mutilation, That we're talking about here.
And still still this thing is not solved.
That we there have been really no recent updates. As a matter of fact, the police are still saying to this day, if you have any information, police calls as the Atlanta Homicide Division.
Oh my goodness.
Right.
There have been extensive investigations by the Atlanta Police and the FBI and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. And like you said, Joseph, with that, the case is unsolved, no arrest, but still active and they are now focusing on DNA evidence. They're hoping some new lead will present itself in the case.
I sure hope.
So this is your crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy Movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong. We're joined by Joseph Scott Morgan, and we're talking about Katie Jenesi's unsolved.
Murder out of Atlanta, Georgia.
If you have a question or opinion, give us a call at eighty eight eight thirty on crime, or tell us your thoughts on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.
So, Joseph, the word that.
Was carved into her abdomen, it was fat.
Is that right? Yes, fat, And they're sure that it was fat.
Yeah.
Yeah. As a matter of fact, the pathologist that did the examination goes to great length to describe this, and I hate to even mention this, but guys, there's hemorrhage in dwelling in these injuries, and that means that she was live while this was being done. Yeah, so, or at least she was in We've got three stages in death. We've got anti mortem, which means before death, and everybody's heard post mortal, but there's also a stage called perry mortal, which is.
That kind of twilight area where you.
Can still have hemorrhage into wounds and that sort of thing. And yeah, there's indwelling hemorrhage in these wounds. That goes to tell you how sickening this is and how sick this act was a park and again and Peedmont Park, Yeah, very popular, probably the most well known park in Atlanta, and a lot of foot traffic through their guys, And look, I used to work in Atlanta with a medical examiner.
I was an EMMY investigator there for many, many years, and I've worked cases in Piedmont Park, but most of the time that had to do with. If it was a homicide, it would be like, you know, some homeless guy that might stab somebody and then they would flee. You know, we talked earlier. Do you remember what we were talking about with Jurman Earlier? I mentioned about the element of time. Somebody hovered over her for a protracted period of time perpetrating this. This was not like a
quick one off event. You're going to run off with some kind of valuables. No, that's not what happened. We're talking about fifty individual wounds here, all right, and to boot we're talking about the animal as well. This takes time in order to facilitate this. It's again, it's amazing to me. Now I do know that they took blood samples from her. Obviously they're going to do talks, but they've got blood cards which we create in the lab. Or we'll put a droplet on a blater cart and
hang on to that. I think the question is were how successful were they in retrieving any kind of blood of it from her clothing? Was the dog's blood on the clothing, because if you have the dog's blood on the clothing, that would indicate that maybe the dog was killed first. And then she was killed vice versa. How good of an exam did they do on the dog's body? Was Katie's blood found on the on the body of the dog, you know, embedded in the fur. And did
the perpetrator leave anything behind? Did they cut themselves which happens very frequently, you know in Sharpforce's injury case.
Does the overkill here in this lead to like a personal motive? Do you think, Joseph, was this a person killing?
Yeah? I mean why why would you spend this much both If listen, if people will just touch your neck right now and you find your trachea the externally, you'll find that large cartilage's body on either side. On either side of your trachia, your karates are there. And so both of her karates were cut, not just one, Both of her curatits were cut. So that's you know, and not to mention, you know the stablins.
That go through and through or go through.
Her body cavvy and you know, impact her organs. This took a protracted period of tom the person that did this would have been super saturated in blood of things.
It staggers me knowing where this took place. I actually spent several months working with Steph on a series with Nancy Grace and stayed in Atlanta. I was right near Piedmont Park and it is it's just real public and people are there all the time. You mentioned families, but also walking in the evenings, because I would walk in the evenings after work and it was, you know, just bustling.
So I'm I just am staggered.
I also want to acknowledge that Katie was known for her kindness. She was into social justice advocacy, and she has been remembered through park dedications and makeshift memorials.
I just wanted to make sure that we a moment to respect.
That amid all of this atrocity that was rained down upon her, because this is as senseless as and it's.
And it's so sad because her murder remains unsolved, and this listen, everybody deserves to be solved, every murder deserved to be solved. But she seems like a pretty extraordinary woman.
Oh gosh, yeah, this is let me give you, you know, let me paint a bit more specific picture. This area where she was found is kind of a famous in a famous landmark here because this is the first crosswalk if you will that was painted with like the rainbow flag. All right, and if you look at it, and you can go on line and see one image of her crossing that crosswalk. But guess what, guys, all the other CCTV cameras in that area were not working. At the people that work of her.
Have they looked at the people that are like in charge of maintaining those cameras.
Oh yeah, yeah, And I mean, what are you going to do? I mean they'll just say, yeah that we're out, you know, And that's essentially the response that you get. And politicians will beat their chest and say, well, we've been working on this for some time to try to get it sick. It never gets resolved. It's one of those types of things that you just come to understand when you live in a big city, right, But.
You know, it just seems like every time you need them not working.
Scary thing about it is there's a maniac out there that did this, and if the cameras are working, you might have had a better chance of catching them.
You're right about that. Well, later we're going to be inviting you to ask questions about any of the cases that we've covered tonight. Give us a call eight eight eight thirty one crime or use the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.
What a Night So Far, Courtney, I know you have a question to talk about this case.
Go ahead fill us in. I do.
My question is something you referenced earlier, Joseph, and this is regarding this Susanne more Few case. It's alleged that her husband, Barry murdered her. So you mentioned that in the forensic analysis there was a botanists and who studies flowers, and there was an entomologist. At what point in the process are they brought in and is it how common or not are these experts in looking at murders victims.
Well, at the top of the list, it's going to be anthropologists. They're probably they have incredible utility. I've worked with them for years. I'm actually frustrated forensic anthropologists that I've met my heart, but it requires very specific training. Entomologists probably number two on the list. They're consulted quite a bit relative to time issues and that goes to
the life cycle of insects. Really kind of a fascinating one though, is forensic botanist the lawn share Those people are utilized to study specific well two areas if a body has like unknown vegetable matter on the clothing. For instances like what in the hell is this? You know, you find the forensic botanist ask them about the point of origin of this and of a particular plant species, or they look at pollens because like, if you're in southern Apalachia, you're not going to find the same pollens
up there that you will along the Gulf coast. All right, it's those two things do not coexist one with another. Insect life is the same way as well.
So the insects are even regional.
Yeah, yeah, they can be. You can move from one area to another. And for us, you know, a guy, you know, yeah, I know a little bit about entomology, but not as much as these people. Some of these changes and some of these species are very subtle, and they can recognize these things about them even developmentally within a certain species. They can see different changes dependent upon the geography, the colomatology, all those sorts of things that play into it. It's very involved and very people.
I've actually, I know what kind of an oddly large amount of entomologists and they.
Just know all of their stuff. Really, yes, I do interesting like often I do know this about Courtney Armstrong.
She is a botanist, like she attracts them apparently, But that is I'm so glad you said it out loud.
No, that was.
They're just fascinating and really learned, knowledgeable folks.
Very focused.
They're very focused individuals.
I knew a guy that studied nothing but fire ants.
So there you go.
Well, do you guys remember yes?
Focused.
In CSI, the main guy was the entomologist, and I think you know, he would talk about the bugcasings and you know things, and I think that really attracted a lot of viewers to the show because it was so interesting. And I mean, I just think it's super interesting, Joseph, Like all the things that you've been talking about tonight, I'm just like, Oh, tell me more, you know, Like it's.
Just very fascinating to me.
I just I love it. Thank you.
There's a lot of utility in the natural sciences and it's useful.
Forendsuccess the beauty of it.
Oh, I went to the wrong field. I should not have gone into computers. This is just so fascinating to me. I love its life.
Life still, young, Joseph, You're going to be back with us obviously, So honestly, these have been some harrowing tales. We've yeah unraveled a bit tonight. Obviously, we're going to be discussing Diddy tomorrow the jury deliberation begins, and Joseph, you'll be back with us next week, of course, So thank you everybody for sharing your Sunday with us. We'll have new developments in the case in Cordelaine, Idaho.
Our thoughts are with everyone true crime tonight. Have a great night.