Three Months After Her Wedding, Anthea Bradshaw Was Murdered - podcast episode cover

Three Months After Her Wedding, Anthea Bradshaw Was Murdered

Aug 07, 20241 hr 11 minSeason 4Ep. 31
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Episode description

In 1994, the body of 26-year-old Anthea Bradshaw was found on the floor of the apartment her husband Jeff Hall was living in just three months after their wedding day. 

So why did it take four years after her death for Anthea's family to find out that her husband was not only an official suspect - but the only suspect - in her murder?

Nine Senior Reporter Ben Avery is on a mission to uncover what really happened to the Adelaide teacher, in a new podcast called The Anthea Bradshaw mystery.

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CREDITS

Guest: 9News reporter and host of podcast Just Married: The Anthea Bradshaw Mystery, Ben Avery

Host: Gemma Bath

Executive Producer: Liv Proud

Audio Producer: Scott Stronach

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Transcript

Speaker 1

You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was recorded on it's nine point thirty PM on a Thursday night in July nineteen ninety four, and Martin and Roz have just settled in at home after closing up their news agency in suburban Adelaide. The phone rings. Ros answers and is immediately met by an agitated voice. It's Jeff, her daughter's husband of three months, and he's dead. He

tells her. Don't you say that to me? Don't you say that to me? She replies. By the time Martin runs into the room, his wife is slumped on the floor in the fetal positions, screaming. He grabs the phone, but Jeff isn't making sense. The couple are in Brunei in Southeast Asia. They're in the process of moving over there for work, but Anthea was supposed to be coming home to Adelaide tomorrow to finish up work at a

local school before making the move. Permanently killed in a burglary gone wrong, Her family is told they've given very little information about the circumstances surrounding her death. Forced to say goodbye to her in the same church she said her vows only a few months prior, but four years later they discover information from the night she died that rocks them to their core. All this time, the police had a name an official suspect in the murder of

Anthea Bradshaw. I'm Jemma Bass and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. The body of twenty six year old Anthea Bradshaw was found on the floor of the apartment her husband Jeff Hall, was living in in Brunei. South Australian police believe there is enough evidence in this case to arrest, charge, and potentially convict someone, but Brunei doesn't agree, despite numerous

attempts by our authorities to make that happen. In twenty twenty four nine, senior reporter Ben Avery has been reinvestigating this case and he's determined to help put her killer behind bars. He's spoken at length to Anthea's family, friends, and the Australian police involved in the case in a new podcast called The Anthea Bradshaw mystery, Ben joins us.

Speaker 2

Now, Ben, you've been looking back into Anthea Bradshaw's story, how has it felt talking to her friends and parents and brothers and really getting deep into her life.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I think it was about ten years ago that Craig Bradshaw, that's Anthea's eldest brother, contacted me in the nine News Adelaide news room and I was shocked at the time that I hadn't heard about this case. It was an innocent South Australian school teacher who went overseas to Brunei three months after her wedding and never came home, and there really hadn't been a lot of coverage about it.

And I could tell in Craig's voice that a lot of years may have passed, but he was still deeply upset and frustrated by not only the fact that he'd lost his sister, but also justice hadn't been served in a case that seemed somewhat solvable. And so I got to know Craig quite well. I've got to know the rest of the family quite well, and it's very clear to me that they're consumed by this case and that

they won't rest until it is solved. And so a lot of people will say to them, and they get frustrated by people saying to them that you should just move on, and they just say, look, we don't want to move on, and we can't move on. And so here we are, thirty years later, still talking about it, perhaps no closer to the answers that they need.

Speaker 1

This case was nineteen ninety four. Why do you think it didn't get as much media coverage back then?

Speaker 3

I guess back then things were a lot different. I feel like if it happened now, there would be a lot of coverage about it. Obviously, traveling overseas as a journalist perhaps didn't happen as often back then. Getting information from overseas was a lot more difficult too, Getting vision and pictures from overseas was tricky. And so I went through the archives here at Channel nine. I did find one story from nineteen ninety four that provided some information

about what had happened. But obviously, these days, this is something that would be covered at length, day in day out, perhaps for a good couple of weeks, if not longer. And so a very unique situation here where a horrible murder of a much loved, innocent South Australia went almost unnoticed for a very long time.

Speaker 1

You said that Craig got in contact with you ten years ago. That's a long time to be sitting on this story, to be thinking about it.

Speaker 3

Yeah, And I mean I have done stories in those ten years from time to time. Obviously there's been quite a few developments since then, but nothing that has got them to the point that they want. For me, it's been a ten year journey, but for the Bradshaw's obviously it's been a thirty year journey. And he tells me how they got to ten years after the murder and thought, we can't believe that it's been ten years and there's still nothing. Surely we won't get to the point where

it's twenty years and there's nothing. And then they get to twenty years and think, surely we won't have to go another ten years without getting the justice that we need. And now we're at the thirty year point and they can't even comprehend the fact that they're still living with this and that potentially another ten years will pass and will be still here.

Speaker 1

Can you take us back to Anthea's childhood. She had two brothers, two loving parents. How does her family describe her. What are their memories of her as a little girl and as a young woman.

Speaker 3

Yeah, so, her mum Rosalind says she was born in the Kapunda Hospital or a country hospital a few hours from Adelaide. She was the only baby in the birthing ward at the time and so she was immediately the center of attention and really that didn't change because she was the only daughter in the family. She was bubbly, she talked a lot, She liked to sing, and her mum has given me a cassette tape that she's never

listened to. She can't bring herself to listen to it, but it's Anthea singing a song Morning Has Broken and such a sweet, innocent young voice, and we play that on the podcast. And then grew up being the middle child, so she was a big sister to her younger brother Paul, and Paul says that she really looked after him. She always loved children. She helped him a lot growing up and that developed, I guess into her growing up to

ultimately wanting to be a teacher. Her mum was a registered nurse, so there was a period where she thought she might want to be a registered nurse, but there was her love of kids that took her into teaching, and she ended up working at a school for underprivileged children in murray Bridge, about an hour out of Adelaide.

It was called the Fraser Park Primary School. And I'm told by her brother Craig that these were kids who didn't have much support at home for the most part, and so they wouldn't get birthday cakes on their birthdays. And so Anthea went right through the list of her children, found out when their birthdays were and would make a

birthday cake for them on their birthday. And Craig got quite emotional when he told me that story, but it just really highlighted how caring she was and how she went to those extra lengths and did a lot for those children.

Speaker 1

She sounds like miss Honey, remember that childhood character.

Speaker 3

A beautiful soul, absolutely And if you look at photographs of Anthea, and I've been shown a lot of them and home videos, always smiling, and I've never heard anyone say a bad word about her. She was just this really gentle, friendly soul who seemed to get along with everyone.

Speaker 1

Her husband, the man she ended up marrying, they got together quite young didn't they can you talk us through their relationship.

Speaker 3

It was year ten at school though in the same year at Pembroke College, a private school here in the eastern suburbs of Adelaide, And it started out as a friendship, I'm told, or certainly they were telling people it was a friendship, and they spend a lot of time together. Jeff would be around at the Bradshaw family home a lot of the time, and he was welcomed with open arms. The brothers Craig and Paul got along with him really well.

They became mates, the three of them, and it was a relationship that continued right through high school into obviously, you know, their late teenage years early twenties. And the family says that it was always a really good relationship that they got along well. They didn't see any signs

of tension. Maybe the odd argument here and there, but definitely and if you look at the photographs and the home videos, to me, it just looked like he was really welcomed and he was part of that Bradshaw extended family.

Speaker 1

I guess that makes this case quite unique in that the family did know Jeff so intimately because he basically grew up alongside.

Speaker 3

Them absolutely, and they all make a point of saying that that this wasn't one of those situations where it's a son in law and a brother in law that sort of comes in and is a little bit on the outside. He was embraced totally, and the brothers say they can't even remember him coming into their lives. It's like he was just always there, almost an extension of

the family. And that's what makes this case, I think so shocking, is to know some of the allegations and the suspicions and the fact now that there is this wedge between the Bradshaws and Jeff Hall all of these years later, and that's just a horrible thing to lose your sister or your daughter, but then also have that shadow in the background.

Speaker 1

So in their twenties, Jeff and Anthea kind of traveled the world together, did all of those early twenty backpacker kind of things. And then they got married in nineteen ninety four. What does her family remember of that day? Was it a great wedding day for the couple?

Speaker 3

Yeah, they find that hard to talk about now. And I have watched the wedding video and it did look like a beautiful day, a really typical Adelaide wedding Tusmore Park Uniting Church in the eastern suburbs of Adelaide. Anthea arrives in a ford falcon Saedan gets out of the car and her dad approaches and takes her by the arm. She has her two bridesmaids in front of her. They then walk into the church. You know, lots of smiling friends and family. Her brothers were there, all of Jeff's

family were there. Anthea looked extremely happy, not a worry in the world, as she always did, and it just looked like your every day suburban wedding. I've also seen video of the reception, and a typical reception as well, lots of drinking and laughing. You see all of the speeches,

really funny speeches. Lots of people spoke. Anthea's eldest brother was the MC for the wedding and he tells me that it was the best wedding he'd ever been to, and a few people have said that, and really difficult to watch that now knowing what would happen only ninety six days later.

Speaker 1

It was what were the plans for after the wedding? Because things happened quite quickly in that Jeff moved overseas and Anthea was trying to wrap things up. What was the plan there.

Speaker 3

They had done a lot of travel and then they get married and Jeff gets a job in Brunei, a country on the island of Borney, an oil rich country where there's a lot of money, and he gets a job as a radiographer at a medical clinic that was owned by the Brunei royal family at the time. It was quite a lucrative position in that it paid reasonably well and he was also put up in accommodation so he didn't need to pay for his apartment. So he

went over there pretty soon after the wedding. Anthea, though, was going to stay at home because she was still teaching at the Fraser Park Primary School in murray Bridge, and so she wanted to finish that teaching contract before she would eventually move over to join him permanently. Now there was then a decision though, that she would go and visit in this period while Jeff was over there alone, and so she organized to go over to Brunei for

ten days. She would obviously catch up with her husband and socialize with him and his workmates, and she would also want to look for jobs, so she would go and visit other schools in Brunei to see if she could organize a job for when she did move over permanently. And so her mum and dad recall taking her to the airport. She gets on the plane to fly over for this visit, sadly not knowing that she would never return home. And back then there were no mobile phones.

Communication was more difficult. There was no Facebook or email, certainly not what they used anyway, and Anthea had told her mum and dad, look, don't ring me while I'm in Brunei because Jeff is worried about phone tapping. He was worried that Brunei authorities listened to phone calls and he told Anthea that before she went over as well, so she didn't have much contact with him either while

he was there alone. And so Anthea's mum and dad took this on board, although they do tell me now that they would not have cared if Brunei authorities were listening to their phone calls, because they would just ring and say how are you going? Are you safe?

Speaker 1

It's not exactly controversial, not controversial.

Speaker 3

And that's something they think about a lot now about why Jeff was worried about that and what it meant was that Anthea had been there for nine days and they hadn't had any contact with her in any form.

Speaker 1

Then what happened to Anthea on July twenty one, nineteen ninety four, So this.

Speaker 3

Was the day before she was to go home back to South Australia. And I might tell you what happened from Jeff's perspective because I've seen his full witness statement and that can give us a bit of an idea into how he says the day unfolded. They'd been out for dinner the night before with some friends. They woke up reasonably early. They had to go and visit a school called the Jigsaw School, where Anthea was going to talk to the school about a potential teaching job. So

they went there in the morning. They had that interview. They get back to the apartment complex at Geredong Park, which is not far from where Jeff works, at about eleven o'clock in the morning. Jeff has a shower, they have something to eat, both of them. Again, this is Jeff's story from his witness statement, and then his shift was beginning at the Geredong Park Sports Medicine Center at midday that day. He had a car there, a red Toyota Salika, and Anthea was going to drive him to work.

And so shortly before midday they get in the car, they make the very short journey to Geredong Park Sports Medicine Center. Anthea drops Jeff off, he goes to work, she goes back to the apartment complex. Now, Jeff says that he was at work for all of that day in terms of from midday until five pm, and then he goes out for his dinner break, and the plan was that Anthea would come and pick him up from

the medical center for that dinner break. So he's standing out the front of the medical center along with a few other people as they were either lead for the day or leaving for dinner, and he's waiting for Anthea. And I've spoken to lots of witnesses and I've seen

lots of witness statements. People that saw Jeff standing there and they went to him and said, would you like a rite home, because a lot of them lived in the same apartment complex or nearby, and Jeff was repeatedly saying no, No, Anthea is coming to pick me up. She shouldn't be too long, and this happened, as I say, with several witnesses I've spoken to. However, as time went on and I think, you know, maybe ten to fifteen

minutes past. Jeff then made a phone call to one of his colleagues, a woman named Peter, who lived in the apartment complex, and Peter said, yeah, look, the car is still here, so I will try and ring, and I think she made a phone call to the apartment complex. Nobody answered, so Peter went and picked up Jeff from

the medical center. Then Peter says that Jeff was worried about where Anthea was, and they made a decision to drive around where she may have gone walking or running because she'd been doing that while she was in Brunei. There was no sign of Anthea, so a short time later they returned to the apartment complex. Peter and Jeff get out of the car. Peter says, she heads to her apartment and says, I'll see you again soon. Jeff goes to his apartment, which is on the third floor.

He opens the door and Anthea is in a pool of blood and it is clear that her body's cold and that she's dead, and he screams out to Peter, because Peter's a nurse. Peter comes up sadly. It's clear that there's nothing anyone can do by that point, and really that's where this mystery begins.

Speaker 1

Because she'd been quite brutally murdered, hadn't she.

Speaker 3

So the post mortem would find that she had been strangled to death, and then after she was already dead, she was stabbed multiple times, and it has never been explained why the killer stabbed her lifeless body.

Speaker 1

Was there any other evidence in the apartment in the room, was there anything else out of place?

Speaker 3

Some furniture had been displaced in the bedroom, so the bed that Anthea and Jeff slept in had been moved, and a chair in that room had also been knocked over. Now that has been explained by Jeff very early on in his original witness statement. He says when he found his wife's body, he went into the bedroom and kicked the bed and kicked the chair out of frustration. So

that's how he explains that. There are also photographs that show a bloodstained knife, which was presumably the murder weapon, near the front door, so the killer had discarded the knife right near the front door on the way out

is what we can take out of that. Another thing to note about that knife is that people I've spoken to from the other apartments say it appears to be the standard issue knife for all of the apartments, which indicates that perhaps, and this hasn't been confirmed, that perhaps that knife came from Jeff's kitchen. There was also an ironing board out, and there was a business shirt draped

over the ironing board. The iron was plugged in and it was still switched on, so it appeared that someone had been ironing a shirt and for whatever reason, stopped abruptly there. I guess the key pieces of evidence from inside the apartment. Piecing it all together is difficult. I guess it can tell a story whatever way you look at it, but this would form part of that initial Brunei police investigation.

Speaker 1

How did the Bradshaws find out about this all happening?

Speaker 3

So it was a Thursday evening, Adelaide time, nine point thirty pm on the twenty first of July nineteen ninety four. The Bradshaws owned a news agency in the eastern suburbs of Adelaide. They just got home from late night shopping and Martin Bradshaw had got on upstairs to watch the Channel nine AFL football show. That's how he remembers the time, because he said that the show was just starting and the phone rang and he said he could hear Roz

answering the phone. Roz says that she picked up the phone and it was Jeff and he didn't say hello, he just said and he's dead. And she doesn't remember much from that point apart from saying, don't say that to me. Don't say that to me. Martin says he heard this commotion, he went downstairs and by this point Roz was curled up in the fetal position. He took the phone, and he says that Jeff was that hysterical

he could barely understand what he was saying. So he was asking for someone else to take over the phone call, you know, put someone else on the phone, and eventually, and he doesn't know who it was, but eventually someone told him that his daughter had been murdered. And then he says, Martin says that he thought that he was the calm one in the room, rose obviously in the fetal position, but he looked down and realized that he had urinated in his trousers after hearing that news.

Speaker 1

What about the brothers, You've spoken to them about finding out as well, And they also had their own stories.

Speaker 3

Craig Bradshaw was living in a sharehouse. He was working in radio on commercial radio, and that evening he had to go to bed early because he had an early start the next day. His friends had all gone to the pub. The people that he was living with went to the pub. But then at around nine point thirty or a little bit after, one of his friends came and woke him up in the bedroom and said, Craig,

you need to go home. Presumably he had somehow found out from Martin and Ross Craig's parents, and Craig hopped in his car. He didn't know what was going on. His friend didn't tell him, and so he had that painful drive to his mum and dad's house, and he said the moment he arrived, he approached the front door and he could hear his mum howling, absolutely howling inside

the house. And went in and again he was given a phone and it was Jeff, and Jeff said that Annie had been murdered, and Craig then had to try and get his head around that, and obviously couldn't get his head around that, because why would anyone murder her? It was a relatively safe country. She'd been there for nine days, she didn't know anyone apart from Jeff and perhaps some of his other colleagues who she would have only just been introduced to, So almost an impossible thing

to fathom for Craig Bradshaw. And he says that he then tried to get hold of his other brother, Paul, and he was out at the pub that night, and obviously, again mobile phones weren't a thing, so they struggled to get hold of him. Paul was still living at home and late that night he came home in his car and he saw all of the cars in the front yard. So by then, I guess a lot of the extended family had arrived at the house, and he just looked

and thought, what is going on here? And he said that he was that concerned and confused that he actually didn't go into the house. He drove up and parked on the side of the road for an hour, just sat there. Perhaps he knew at that point that his life was about to change, and that if he could have another hour without knowing then he would take that. But eventually he went into the house, and he says that he thinks it was his auntie who told him what had happened.

Speaker 1

You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass. I'm speaking with Ben Avery about the murder of Anthea Bradshaw. Up next, we find out how far the Bradshaw family will go in their fight for justice. What did the next few days and weeks look like. Obviously in Brunei, we've got police investigating Jeff still over there. Does her family get on a plane, how do they get Anthea's body back? What does that?

Speaker 3

So there are a lot of discussions around that. Craig spoke with various members of his family about whether he should go over to be there with Jeff and to talk to the police about what's happened here. I think one of his aunties offered to pay the cost of him to fly over and to stay over there for a period of time, but Craig says that he was talked out of doing that by various people, including Jeff,

that Jeff had said, there's nothing you can do. Leave it with me, essentially, and so no member of the Bradshaw family went to Brunei and that's something that they regret to this day. Instead, Jeff Hall's father went over and Jeff Hawlls best mate went over together. And I think what the Bradshaws perhaps didn't know at that time, well I'm almost certain they didn't know at the time was that Jeff was being treated as a suspect by

the Brunei police. He was actually in custody. I was told by one of Jeff's colleagues in the podcast that he had been held for questioning and that they went and visited him and he was behind bars. So he was in some form of custody at that point, and he was beside himself. He was crying and saying that

he was innocent. Again, these are all things that the Bradshaw family weren't aware of at the time, and they really do wish that that had some representation I guess as a family over there in those initial days.

Speaker 1

We'll get to this, but they didn't find that information out for another four or so years. So what did they believe had happened to Anthea in that timeframe, Well, there hadn't.

Speaker 3

Been a lot of information, it has to be said. In those early months and years. There was a theory though, that had been prominent to my understanding, and that is that there was an unknown man spotted outside of the

apartment complex who no one recognized. And when I say no one, there was only one person I'm aware of who saw that man, and I've spoken to her and she's described him as being of Thai or Vietnamese descent, that he had a cap, and that cap was pulled down over his face to the extent that she couldn't really make out any distinguishing features. And this was looked

at thoroughly by the Brunei police. They did a photo fit of this man, even though the woman who spotted him says that that was pretty pointless because she didn't

know what he looked like anyway. And news would filter back to the Bradshaw's that there was this theory of an itinerant worker, a tie worker perhaps, who may have worked in maintenance on the apartment complex, or who may have worked on a nearby construction site and may have gone up to that third floor apartment and killed Anthea, And they, to an extent, I guess, accepted that they accepted that perhaps this was an unfortunate random killing.

Speaker 1

How did they find out that jeff had been a suspect?

Speaker 3

So it was four years later, in nineteen ninety eight, that the coroner released its findings to the Bradshaw family and so they got a letter in the mail and Rosalind tells me about the moment that she opened that letter. It was a very short report, only a few pages long, but at the end it said that the only apparent suspect in the case appears to be the deceased husband,

one Jeffrey John Hall. However, the finding also said police investigations could not find any evidence to justify any charge against him.

Speaker 1

How did they react to that?

Speaker 3

Rose couldn't believe it. She just hadn't even given thought to that in those four years, none of them had, and so she was shocked, absolutely shocked. And she says that that was the moment she started to wonder whether her son in law had some questions to answer.

Speaker 1

What did they do? Well, what can they do? It's four years later. Do they contact Brunei police, do they go to Australian police? What are their next moves?

Speaker 3

So then Rod starts to think where she can go from here? And I'm not entirely sure how the South Australian Police became involved. I know that they were contacted in the early days of the Brunei police investigation, so that had some involvement. And then following this revelation in nineteen ninety eight, there is some communication between Essay Police and the Bradshaw family and a detective with the South Australian Major Crime Branch, Detective Brenton Rownie, begins looking at

the case. There's no jurisdiction obviously for South Australian Police in Brunei, but that doesn't stop them from making their own inquiries. And so that started to begin and really ramp up in the early two thousands, led primarily initially by Detective Rownie.

Speaker 1

Well, Brunei actually allows one of these police officers to go over and review the case in person. That's quite unusual, isn't it.

Speaker 3

It is extremely unusual, and the reason that that came about was almost pure chance. So Brenton Rownie's looking at all of this information, He's starting to see that it warrants further investigation and that perhaps the case needs some more expertise that the Brunei police may not have had. And as I say, by chance the Brunei authorities were coming to Adelaide, or some of them were coming to Adelaide.

You may have heard of the police tattoo that is held around the world and police forces will come with

their police bans and things like that. Well that was being held in Adelaide this year, and so the Royal Brunei Police Force Band was coming and so as part of that, Brenton Rownie organized for the South Australian Police Commissioner at the time to meet with a high ranking official from and they had a meeting when they were here for the police tattoo, and as a result of that meeting, Brunei said yes, look, we are prepared to pay for the flights and accommodation of your detective to

come over to Brunei wow and conduct his own inquiries, which was a real breakthrough for the Bradshaws and for say police they could go over and for the first time have a look at this for themselves in terms of someone from South Australia at least, and so that happened. It was in two thousand and four that Brenton Rownie bordered a plane and headed over to the place where Anthea.

Speaker 1

Lost her life, and what did he do when he got there? He obviously was going to look into Jeff being a potential suspect. Did he look at any other possible theories? Was there anything else that came out of him being on the ground.

Speaker 3

He says he went into it with a very open mind and so one of the things though, that became clear when he got there, and one of the first things that jumped out to him was that the Brunei police were not very experienced dealing with murders, and he says that's because murder was almost unheard of in that country. Now, I've looked into this and there's one News Corp particle here in Australia that said there'd been only three murders

in the decade preceding Anthea's death. I haven't been able to confirm that because the stats from Brunei are very patchy and unclear. Probably the best data I could get was from the United Nations. Actually that showed between nineteen ninety six and twenty thirteen, so this is a period really after the murder, But probably the best data I could get there were fifty four murders, an average of

around three per year for that period. Now it is a small country, about around half a million people, but still, even if you go off that data, it's fair to say that murders were quite rare, and so the police force over there wouldn't have had the same skills that someone from South Eastutralia would have. Brenton Rownie would have investigated other murders before. The major crime branch here in South Australia handles a lot of murders and a lot

of cold cases too ongoing. So that's the first thing that stood out to him. And he also learned for the first time that Jeff had been held in some form of custody after the murder, and he says that's something that he didn't know previously, and obviously, as I've mentioned, the Bradshaw family wasn't aware of either. He says that

the Brunei police were helpful to an extent. They provided him with exhibits from the case, he was able to visit Geredong Park where this murder took place, and he ultimately returned home after four days with dozens of exhibits that he was allowed to physically take back to South Australia.

Speaker 1

Before we get further into that. I want to give a bit more context about Brunei because you've said there weren't many murders, so to speak, and it was a relatively safe but it's actually a very strict country. It has some extreme punishments, some very backwards laws. In our Australian eyes, doesn't it very much.

Speaker 3

So it's an Islamic country, very strict laws, as you say, including punishment for homosexuality, and when it comes to murder, the death penalty, So anyone convicted of murder can face the death penalty. It isn't always enforced, but certainly murder is punishable by death. And for this reason, because it was so strict, crimes were very unusual. So I'm not just talking about murders. I'm talking about break ins, robberies, thefts, sexual assaults. It didn't happen very often for that reason.

Hence why a lot of people I've spoken to said that this murder of Anthea Bradshaw was very out of the box.

Speaker 1

What did Rowney determine after investigating everything to do with this.

Speaker 3

Case, He was firmly of the opinion that Jeff Hall had questions to answer about the murder. He brought back a lot of exhibits, some of them I've spoken about those photos that showed the bed had been moved, the chair had been kicked over, the blood stained knife. There was also forensic evidence, though. He brought back a shirt that Jeff Hall was wearing on the day of the murder, and this would become a very important piece of evidence, and that's because it was clear that there were blood

like stains on Jeff's shirt. Now, there would be various forensic reports done that looked at that shirt, and a DNA examination of the shirt found that the blood stains on Antia's shirt weren't Jeff's blood, ruled out that it was Jeff's blood, and one report from Singapore found that there was only a one in fifteen chance that that blood was anyone else's but anteis, So we can take out of that there was a high likelihood without being one hundred percent, that Jeff Hall had his wife's blood

on his shirt on the day of the murder. Now that's obviously significant, But the other thing you need to look at then is how did the blood get there, Because he does say that he went and checked his wife's body when he got back to the apartment and saw her on the ground, so very possible it could have happened then, and that's why you need to look further into the evidence and further at those blood stains and further at the crime scene to try and work out, okay, well,

how did he get that blood on his shirt. There was a report done in the year or two after the murder by a forensic scientist named doctor Henry C. Lee from Connecticut. He worked for the Connecticut State Laboratory, and he was very well known. He's worked on thousands and thousands of cases. He worked on the OJ Simpson case, he worked on the John Benet Ramsey case. And I was only watching a Netflix documentary the other night called The Staircase, and in it he was used by the defense.

So this was a well known forensic scientist. He looked at the blood stains that was his speciality, and he determined that there were what he called medium velocity blood stains, which sounds very technical, but essentially what it means is that there were microscopic droplets that appeared to have got there after traveling through the air. So this wasn't a smear, it wasn't a white that there had been some kind of projected mechanism that got the blood on Jeff's shirt.

Now that's significant. It doesn't necessarily say that it got there through the process of stabbing Anthea, but it does say that perhaps some of the blood got there through traveling through the air. And so then you need to think about, Okay, how could Jeff have got the projected blood onto his shirt by just viewing and checking Anthea's body. And it's possible he could have stepped in the pool of blood, for example, and it could have splashed up

onto his shirt. He could have had the blood wipe onto his shirt and then that could have gripped from one sleeve to the other. That's also possible. But it was definitely evidence that would support a theory that perhaps it had got there through the process of stabbing Anthea. And then it became about not necessarily just taking Henry C. Lee's word for it, because in these cases there are varying opinions and if you go to another forensic scientist

it can be different. And that's what police did. They went to someone in Western Australia who looked at the evidence as well and wasn't as convinced that there was this medium velocity blood. He said that it was possible that there was projected blood stains on the shirt. And there were also similar findings from a South Australian forensic scientist who said the same thing. But one thing that they all agreed on was that there was blood or

at least blood like stains on the shirt. And then to wrap that up, they need to then go, okay, well, let's look at the crime scene. Let's see how Jeff may have got that blood on his shirt without being too graphic anthey's on the ground, there's a pull of

blood off to one side of her body. And there's a pathologist here in South Australia named Roger Bayard, Professor Roger Bayard, who looked at the crime scene photographs and was asked to make a determination on how Jeff could have got the blood on his shirt in checking the body. And I've spoken to Roger in the podcast and he tells me that when he looks at the photo, he thinks if Jeff had come around from one side and approached her. And we need to keep in mind, and

this is something that I might not have mentioned. Jeff has been specific about what he did he touched Anthea's face, he checked her pulse, and he touched her leg. And Roger says that if he had come from one side of the body and done those things, he can't see how Jeff could have got blood on him because there wasn't any blood on that side. Then Roger says, Okay, if he went around the other side, yes he could have got blood on him, but he would have disturbed

the pool of blood. And when you look at the photograph, there is no evidence that there was any disruption to that pool of blood. And so this became important evidence as well in that it raises doubt about whether Jeff could have got blood on his shirt when he checked Anthea's body.

Speaker 1

What does Bruneye do with all of this information?

Speaker 3

This was all given to Brunei police because they still had jurisdiction. Sow. The Australian police might have been investigating, but they had jurisdiction. And I need to point out that that blood stained evidence I talk about is significant, but I don't think it's conclusive, and it was given

to the Bruney police. They made a determination not just based on that, but also based on alibi accounts that we should talk about at some point, witness accounts that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute jeffrel.

Speaker 1

Let's talk about the alibi stuff. Now, how does that come into play?

Speaker 3

As I've mentioned Jeff was at work, well, he says that he was at work that afternoon, and so then the question becomes time of death very important. Here did Anthea die in the morning, for example, before Jeff even went to work. This is where the witness has become important. And I've spoken to the key ones. There's a woman named nur Angela Hillyard who worked with Jeff lived at the apartment complex, in the apartment directly under Jeff's and

she says that that day she was at work as well. However, she went home for lunch, and she did this at around one pm, and there was a shuttle service, so there was a van that the employees could get in at the medical center and then make the short journey

to the apartment complex. So she went home for lunch, and then at around one point fifty she went back into the van to go back to the medical center, and she said she looked up at Jeff and Anthea's apartment and Anthea was on the balcony, and so this is a sighting of Anthea alive at one fifty pm.

It's also important to note that a short time after that, around two ten PM, another woman who was living at that apartment complex named Carolyn Chilcott, heard a domestic dispute and she's described it to Brunei police as a domestic dispute at around two ten pm, the sound of a man and a woman having an argument and also the

sound of furniture being moved. She says that went for about seven minutes, and then she heard the sound of footsteps going down the stairs and out of the apartment complex. So we have a sighting of Anthea alive at one point fifty we have the sound of a domestic dispute at two ten, not necessarily coming from Jeff and Anthea's apartment, but certainly from somewhere in the apartment complex. If the sighting and that sound is linked to Anthea's murder, then

Jeff Hall is at work at the time. Few things we need to question there. Firstly, there was only one person that saw Anthea alive, and identifications like that have been notoriously unreliable. I've interviewed neur Angela. I think she is credible and one hundred percent believe she saw Anthea. But that has been the case in many murder investigations where those accounts have turned out to be wrong. So

we need to take that for what it is. And I've been told by prosecution experts that in any trial that would become under a lot of scrutiny, there'd be a lot of questions asked about that sighting. The other thing obviously we need to ask, is well, are we sure that the sound of the dispute came from Jeff and Anthea's apartment. It could have been someone else, could have been a complete coincidence. And the police say that any investigation there will be red herrings like this. They're

the first two things we need to consider. But then we also need to look at Jeff Hall's version of events. Was he really at work that whole time? Who saw him at work was as someone that can account for him being there every minute of the day between twelve and five. And I have to say there are alibi witnesses for Jeff Hall, people who say they saw him around two point fifteen, although they couldn't be completely sure

of the time. But I think just to simplify it a little bit, because Jeff Hall's version of events is probably most important. He said in his original police statement that he had a coffee break at two o'clock in the afternoon. He says that he had that coffee break on the clinic grounds. He never went home. He says he never went back to the apartment and he says that he had that coffee break with his superior Varghi's Powlos, who was the head of the MRI department where he worked.

Problem is Fagie's powerloss in his statement says, yes, I did have a coffee break with Jeff Hall, but that was at two forty five, and so there's a difference in timings there, and it is possible that one of them has just got their time wrong. But a fact of this case is that Jeff says he had a coffee break at two and the person he says he had a coffee break with says, no, it happened at

two forty five. Crucial timing when you consider the sound of the domestic dispute at the apartment complex at about two ten pm. The other important thing to note there is that whilst Jeff's car wasn't with him by all reports. At the medical center. It's a fairly short walk. I've looked at it on Google Maps. As the crow flies, it's less than a kilometer from the apartment complex to the clinic. Jeff was a fit man. If he wanted to run, he'd cover a kilometer in five minutes. If

he walked, he might take ten to fifteen. He could get a ride. That's something that has been investigated. What it essentially shows is that there is a possibility that Jeff could have gone home during that five hour period. I will repeat, though, that there were several people who certainly say that they were with Jeff the large chunks of the day. The other thing that Jeff said was that he spent a lot of that afternoon with var

Geese and with another colleague, Emmett Timperley. Emma has been supportive in her witness statement of what I've seen in terms of spending a lot of time with Jeff. Var Geese, though, who I've interviewed, has said that he would have only spent a few minutes here and there with Jeff, and certainly doesn't think he would have spent a large chunk of the afternoon with him.

Speaker 1

So Rownie has all of this evidence and investigation, what does he do with it in terms of the Australian authorities.

Speaker 3

So he wanted an opinion as to whether or not what he had gathered was enough for a prosecution, and so he went to the South Australian Director of Public Prosecutions at the time, who was a man named Stephen Polaris. It was his role as the DPP in South Australia to look at evidence that police have gathered and make decisions on whether or not there was enough to put a person before the court. This was his speciality. This

is what he did every day. So that evidence was presented to him, and he tells me after examining that evidence, he came to the conclusion that there was not only enough evidence to charge Jeffrey Hall, there was enough evidence to put him on trial for murder. This was a

determination he made in two thousand and eight. And I do want to caveat that with the fact that perhaps evidence has been gathered since then that might change his mind, but certainly that was his determination in two thousand and eight.

Speaker 1

You have Brunei not wanting to do that. You have Australia wanting to do that. How do you go about making that happen because we don't have jurisdiction there, and so.

Speaker 3

Yeah, this was the first brick Wall I guess that those investigators faced here in South Australia. So there was Detective Brenton Rownie, but there was also another one that came in, Detective John schneiem Milch. They worked together for a point and they decided, okay, Brunei Police isn't going to investigate the DPP here thinks there's enough evidence. Our next step, we're going to talk to Jeff Hall. Jeff Hall was working in Tokyo as an executive by this point.

They put an alert on his passport so that whenever he enters the country they would know about it. Jeff Hall eventually comes back to Australia and he's staying at a hotel in the CBD and detective Rownie and schnee Milch go to his front door at the hotel room. Jeff, to their surprise, agrees to talk to them and they interview him at length. Jeff sticks to that original story. I've got varying accounts from those two detectives. One of them believes that he thought that at one stage Jeff

Hall was going to confess to the murder. The other detective certainly didn't agree with that at all, but both of them do agree that Jeff Hall was extremely upset. He was obviously extremely shocked to suddenly have detectives arriving at his door all of these years later, but they did interview him. He agreed to the interview. Jeff's story didn't change, and then the detectives went to the Bradshaw's home, sat them down and said, we think we've done all

we can here. Now we don't have any jurisdiction and we're going to have to leave it at that. And Craig Bradshaw, Anthea's eldest brother, who very frustrated by this point, says that he went outside. He had a punching bag and he punched the punching bag and he broke his wrist because he felt like it was just another as I say, brickwall that they had faced. And so when he had eventually calmed down, he said to these detectives, Okay,

well where can we go from here? And they said, well, we don't think your chances are very good, but you could go to Federal Parliament and you could change a law so that police in Australia can investigate this crime, because at the end of the day, the victim was Australian and there was legislation in place already that came in in two thousand and two after the Bali bombings

that allowed Australian police to investigate overseas murders. The problem with that though, was that it wasn't backdated, so the legislation only began in two Anything before that, including Anthea's murder in nineteen ninety four, wasn't subject to this legislation, and so what the Bradshaws would need to do is changed that legislation so that it was retrospective. And that's

where a whole new fight began for the Bradshaws. They went to journalists at the time and one of them was probably me, but also a reporter with a local paper who wrote a feature article about this. It gave the case a bit more prominence. And then I'm sure you'll know Nick Xenophon, a very prominent independent senator at the time, became aware of the case and he went and met with the Bradshaws and he said Okay, well,

let's see if we can change this legislation. It was going to be difficult though for Nick on his own because he was an independent wasn't aligned to either of the major parties here in Australia. But perhaps another stroke of luck was that the local member for the Bradshaws was Christopher Pine, a prominent cabinet minister at the time, and so Nick and Chris and the family get together and they try to work out, okay, how do we

go about this. Christopher Pine approached the Attorney General at the time, who was George Brandis, and they decided that if they introduced a private member's bill through Nick Xenophon, that perhaps this could get past the Senate and the House of Representatives. And it didn't happen easily, but eventually that did happen and the law was changed, and the

Bradshaws went to Canberra. They fronted the cameras and this was an historic day and they changed federal law and it became known as Antia's Law or the Bradshaw Bill, and that would not just help them, but potentially help many other Australian families as well. That could be seen as a victory For the Bradshaws, they certainly didn't see it that way and they said as much. This was just Martin Bradshaw that his father said. They were never going to be any winners in this. It's just about

pursuing justice. But this allowed them to take that next time step.

Speaker 1

We still don't have anyone behind bars for this murder, so that law might have gone through, but what's actually happened since that law came through? Where are we at in this investigation?

Speaker 3

And so the Bradshaws thought at this point that the South Australian Police would then investigate and have jurisdiction. That didn't happen. The Australian Federal Police were given the job of investigating it, presumably because they used to dealing with overseas governments, overseas police forces, and they might have access to more intel than the South Australian Police would have, so in a way it made sense. Two investigators were

given the task of not conducting an investigation. They used the word evaluation to evaluate the evidence to then make a decision whether it was even worth investigating. Those two investigators spent around eighteen months looking at the evidence, conducting their own investigations, re examining forensic exhibits, They visited Brunei,

they spoke to witnesses. However, they then summoned the Bradshaws, or called the Bradshaws to their AFP offices in Adelaide, sat them down and told them quite bluntly that they would not be conducting a full investigation into the matter.

Speaker 1

That must have been heartbreaking after all of that, after everything that they had been through, it ripped their hearts out.

Speaker 3

Paul Bradshaw, I'm told, reacted very angrily. Anthea's younger brother just wanted to leave, dropped some f bombs, told them what he thought of them, and eventually left the building. I'm told by some sources he may have done a small burnout in the car park and then drove off. And it was the same feeling for Craig and Roz and Martin. It was a shock. They thought that there would at least be an investigation. And that's the point I want to make here, is that this wasn't about going, Okay,

let's go and arrest Jeff Hall. It was about let's investigate who killed Anthea. There are other theories, but someone killed Anthea. So Let's find out who it was. Let's not just allow a South Australian woman to be murdered overseas and do nothing about it. That was their frustration, and it was a shock for me too. I've been following this case. I tried to ring the Brawdshaws. They weren't answering their phones. They dropped off the grid for

a few days, maybe a few weeks. And I'm only being told now the reason that was was that Martin Antea's father started to spiral. His health started to suffer and he had a stroke a couple of weeks after being told this news. He survived that stroke. Craig was there and managed to get into a hospital, but sadly, he had a few more strokes and he continued to go downhill, and a few years ago he passed away without knowing what had happened to his daughter.

Speaker 1

Is that why you've come in? Is that why you're reinvestigating this to try and help this family in this next stage of their fight.

Speaker 3

Yes, because they don't know where else to go. The Bradshaw family at the moment, we need to reflect. Now we've had a Brunei police investigation that didn't go anywhere. South Australian Police were enthusiastic about helping them, but ultimately didn't have the primary jurisdiction and it was given to the AFP, which investigated. And I need to be very clear, they called that investigation an evaluation and then they said explicitly to the family that they would not conduct a

full investigation into the matter. And I found that very unusual for several reasons. And I'm not saying that they didn't do a thorough job. And I'm sure that they are aware of evidence that I'm not aware of, and perhaps the other police forces aren't aware of, and the former South Australian DEPP isn't aware of. But did they do everything they could? And should they be saying that they're not going to conduct a full investigation. I think that's a horrible thing to tell a family. I really do.

And for example, if there's a cold case in South Australia the South Australian Police, it'll always be something that they never give up on and they will hold press conferences or they'll keep pushing it out there and calling for information. Now, I'm not aware of a single police officer in the world having ever done a press conference about Anthea's murder. Not one nearly thirty years not one might have happened in Brunei. Perhaps I'm not sure. Certainly

not in Australia. And that's what I guess what we can focus on now, because clearly it's now Australia's job to do this, because Brunei is not going to I would have thought that at some point you front the cameras and you say it's not acceptable that an innocent South Australian school teacher was killed in the prime of her life in a foreign country. We want to do something about it. Who knows something? If you know, call this number, put out a reward, like you do with

every other unsolved murder in Australia that hasn't happened. Either. There's no reward. The AFP might say, I will look, this happened overseas. Why would we call for witnesses here in Australia. Well, a lot of the witnesses now live in Australia. Well, the key one, nor Angela, who I spoke to, who was the last to see anthrough her live will, says she was the last to see anthrow your lives. She lives in Perth. I've spoken to another witness who had dinner with Anthea and Jeff the night before.

She lives in Borough, South Australia. A lot of these expats are in Australia and anti families in Australia. Antea's friends are in Australia. It's important to know about Jeff and Anthea's relationship before they went overseas. You need to build a full picture, and so I think there is good reason to do a press conference or a recorded interview here in Australia and I have reached out to

the AFP with a full list of questions. It took me a long time to get an answer as to whether they would speak with me, and six weeks after that first inquiry I got an email saying that they would politely decline. And what's particularly frustrating about that is that podcasts they extend beyond borders, don't they Like people in BRUNEI might listen to the podcast, the American expats

might hear it in the US. There are witnesses in the UK, and there is a very good chance that once the podcast starts getting shared around, it will get to the right people. I was extremely disappointed that they

didn't want to talk. They did provide me with an extensive written statement, and I should acknowledge that they certainly say that they did everything that they could, that they feel like they turned over every stone, that they interviewed all of the right people, They re examined the forensic evidence.

They also say that they uncovered new evidence, including some injuries we weren't aware of to anthea, which is well and good, but I would have some follow up questions for that, and I'd like to know a little bit more. And if there is some stuff that they know that we don't the public doesn't know, that doesn't sit very comfortably with me either, because that would mean that Martin

Bradshaw passed away without knowing the full story. And they probably do say that they need to keep some things up their sleeve because it might compromise the investigation if they release that information. But my response to that would be what investigation.

Speaker 1

Yeah, they've said they're not doing one.

Speaker 3

It's been thirty years. Maybe it's time to take some risks in releasing some information and getting the public talking again. I don't think it's okay to sit there inter state and say, oh, look, there are things that you guys don't know in this case. We're all is. Even if there's only a few new things that we can be told, it might be enough to get those witnesses talking again and to get the case back on track. So that has been frustrating.

Speaker 1

I just want to touch on this briefly, but as part of your investigation, you've been trying to build that timeline, that relationship inside Jeff and Anthea's world by talking to friends and stuff like that. Has anything in that timeline surprised you? Because one thing we haven't mentioned is that Jeff is actually a gay man. He came out in the early two thousands around that time has been gay. Is that something that's worth talking about.

Speaker 3

Yes, I think it's worth talking about. Obviously, we need to be very careful. I don't think that we can say it's important to the investigation necessarily. And the Bradshaws make the point as well that just because Jeff has come out as gay, it doesn't make him a murderer. And I hope that's an obvious thing to say. However, given that ninety six days after Anthea's wedding, she was killed, and given that Jeff Hall has been named as a suspect in a coroner's in quest and also in an

Adelaide court since then. Given those things, it's important to go back over their relationship because that helps build a picture. So I want to talk about a few things there. Firstly, the Bradshaws say that they never saw many signs of tension between the couple, only an argument here and there. I've spoken to friends of Anthea who say that they did like Jeff, but they've also painted a bit of a different picture about what was happening behind closed doors.

There was one letter in particular that Anthea had sent to one of her friends that spoke about them having some doozy of arguments, is how she described them, arguments that involved furniture throwing and minor injuries. Now, I want to make it clear that that doesn't make Jeff a murderer either, and that lots of couples would have arguments,

and lots of couples probably have quite volatile arguments. Again, I think it's important to paint the picture though about their relationship, given that he is a suspect in the murder. There were other friends as well that also recall there being arguing. And there are some friends as well that say that there was some strange behavior, erratic behavior from Jeff after Anthea died, after the funeral, and I guess

that could be explained. He would have been grieving at the time, but I think important to put that on the record. So there were those things from Antie's friends. Essentially, it was not a perfect relationship. Also, when you mentioned Jeff coming out as gay, that happened around ten years after the murder, that was a real shock for the Bradshaw family because they were still close with Jeff, particularly the brothers. They were still mates, but Jeff didn't tell them.

One of the brothers, Paul, was at a social event. It was a cricket party, he says, and he was talking to a mutual friend of Jeff's and Paul said, how is Jeff? And this friend said, well, you know, I was a bit shocked about him coming out with this young fellow. And Paul said, what do you mean coming out of what? And would soon put two and two together and that was how he found out that Jeff was gay. And so Paul says, why didn't Jeff

tell me that? Why didn't he come to meet with it, and at no point did these brothers think, oh, okay, that's it. That means that he killed Anthea. Far from it. In fact, Craig says that when he found out this news, he essentially said, look, so what doesn't make him a murderer. And he even reached out to Jeff. He called him and said, I've just built a new house at Morson Lakes. Would you like to come and see it? And Jeff said, no, I can't, I'm too busy with water Polo and basically

hung up. And that was the last interaction that Jeff and Craig had ever had, and the Bradshaws haven't spoken to him for many years. And so why is his sexuality relevant? It's potentially not reallyan Why am I mentioning it in the podcast? Well we need to know did Jeff know he was gay when he married Anthea? And if he did, why did he marry Anthea? And it speaks to the dynamics of the relationship. I think it's an important thing to mention.

Speaker 1

Will You're right in calling it a mystery because there are still so many unanswered questions in this case, it's definitely not one we should be just closing a book on what's Jeff's response been to all of this and to the various investigations that have been going on.

Speaker 3

It's really important to put on the record that Jeff has always denied any involvement in Anthea's murder. The Brunei police investigation did not find enough evidence to charge him. South Australian police have obviously never charged him, and an AFP investigation did not find enough evidence to charge him, so in the eyes of the law, he is an innocent man. I've reached out to him for comment so far I haven't got a response at this stage. I know that a user with sixty minutes reached out to

Jeff for comment a few years ago. He was polite on the phone and certainly indicated that he would like to help, but ultimately declined the request for an interview. And more recently, the AFP has told me that they reached out to Jeff for an interview for their investigation

and he declined, which is his right to do. So that's where we're at at the moment, and I do want to maintain that whilst Jeff has been named as a suspect, there have also been other theories including a stranger seen outside of the apartment complex, including the fact that there were a lot of people around the apartment complexes at that time.

Speaker 1

Lastly, I just wanted to ask you what you think this case can teach us about grief, because I think listening to the Bradshaws, they say time heals wounds, their wounds don't feel in any way, shape or form. Thirty years later, their grief is so palpable you can hear it in their voices. How deeply has this affected the trajectory of their lives, and do you think that justice will help them to finally be able to handle that grief.

Speaker 3

Firstly, it's absolutely ruined their lives. They haven't been the same. Their lives have been turned upside down, mental health problems, suicidal thoughts, alcohol problems. They've gone from being a happy suburban family to being completely ruined. And I don't think we can even begin to imagine what it would be like. I've got a sister. If she was one moment, I'm m seeing her wedding, the next moment, I'm getting a

phone call to say that she'd been murdered. Unthinkable. There's that, and that's the worst part, right that's the worst part. They've lost their sister, they've lost their daughter. But I think what has really destroyed them is this ongoing fight for justice and the frustration of that and that anger that that would bring. And that's what I think really comes out when you speak to them. They want whoever was responsible to suffer in the way that they have suffered.

And I've spoken to the former victim's Rights commissioner here in South Australia who had some strong things to say on this, and he said that families don't ever move on from these things. You know, time doesn't really heal wounds. People just learn how to live with what's happened to them. And he's made the point of saying that these families shouldn't be expected to move on afterwards and just to drop the investigation and think this isn't getting anywhere, Let's

go on with our lives. Well, I think it's offensive when people say that to them, because it's not for other people to decide that. And when I made inquiries with witnesses and investigators, some of them said they've got to get on with their lives. Anthea wouldn't have wanted this. Well, I even question that because Anthea obviously knew who killed her. There are people that have said to me anthey will

be saying go and get them. It's not good enough to say that the family should be expected to move on because they're never going to have any kind of peace until the case is solved. And that's for them to decide. And so if there are reasons why things can't be investigated further, I mean there are people I approached for interview for the podcast who said no, and

that's completely fine. People have their reasons for that. I just don't want one of those reasons to be that the family should just move on and that it's best for the family, because it's not for us to decide what's best for the family.

Speaker 1

Thanks to Ben for assisting us to tell this story. True Crime Conversations is a Mumma mea podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bass, with audio design by Scott Stronik. Our executive producer is lif Proud. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

Speaker 4

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Speaker 1

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Speaker 4

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