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Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was recorded on Hey, I'm Jemma Bath, host of true Crime Conversations and did you know that the team at Mamma Mia is bringing you over one hundred hours of the best content from your award winning podcasts for the Hot Pod Summer of your Dreams. Well, we
are here at two Crime Conversations. We've handpicked some of the most chilling and thought provoking episodes from our feed, including gripping cult stories, powerful interviews with crime victims, and in depth accounts from women who have been incarcerated sharing the journeys that led them to that place.
And that's just the beginning.
Today, I'm bringing you the story of Cassie Sainsbury from No Filter, another amazing podcast on the Muma Mea network hosted by Mia Friedman. In this episode, Mia chats with Cassie, who for years was branded by the media as Cocaine Cassie. Here she talks about prison life, the abuse, the relationships, thee and what happened afterwards. Here's the original episode.
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From Mum and Me I'm mea Friedman and you're listening to No Filter. My favorite interviews to do on this show when I go in thinking that I know someone, I've got a sense of them by what I've seen or what I've read, and then after the interview, I come away with a totally different idea. That's the kind of interview you can hear today. The name Cassie Sainsbury probably doesn't mean anything to you, but if I said cocaine Cassie instantly, I bet you'd have an image and
an idea in your head. Here are the facts in case you've forgotten them, because I kind of had. Cassie Sainsbury was caught with almost six kilograms of cocaine in a Colombian airport in twenty seventeen. It was concealed inside eighteen headphone boxes and the media went nuts. They were so so excited about this story. You knew you were being asked to deliver cocaine. Finally you've admitted I knew.
It was in it.
I feared for my life some massive organized crime enterprise. It's huge because the last time a pretty young white Australian woman was caught smuggling drugs, her name was Chappelle Corby. It was back in two thousand and four, and she spent ten years in a Ballei jail and was responsible for countless interviews and stories and a huge amount of media coverage and public interest. She'd been released ten years later. Just three years before, Cassie was caught with drugs, so
the narrative was written instantly. Silly young girl serves a right. Whyant earth did she think she could get away with it? Cassie pleaded guilty. She was sentenced to six years in a notoriously rough women's prison in Colombia, and the conditions were pretty shocking. This interview is about what happened to Cassie in jail and what happened afterwards. She went into prison engaged to a man. That relationship ended and she got engaged to a woman. She was stabbed, beaten and threatened.
She spoke not a word of Spanish. She made enemies and friends, and she fell in and out of love. She was terrified and defiant and determined and incredibly smart. Her resilience was next level, and three years later she was released into a completely different life which she has embraced. Put your expectations and your preconceptions aside and enjoy this conversation with Cassie Sainsbury. Cassie, do you remember, I'm sure you do, your first night in prison.
I do remember that that was horrendous night. I think it was actually quite daunting going into prison to start off with, and obviously already knowing that I was looking at a thirty year sentence and I looked in there, and I'm looking at the people and I'm thinking, why do they look so comfortable? Like you would see women who look like they were having the time of their life. And then I'd see like women walking around with babies,
and I was like, what is going on here? And obviously later I found out that there are women who were pregnant in prison actually give birth there and the baby will stay with them until they're probably three or four years old. Oh wow, which is be hard on a child to grow up in those circumstances, considering they're basically paying a sentence with their mum without even realizing it.
When you were arrested at the airport, how long were you at the airport? Four?
I was arrested and immediately I was taken from the airport and in budal To an anti narcotics center which is basically off of the airport, which I stayed there for forty eight hours, which in that time I was given my accusation hearing, and then from there I was taken to a men's retention center.
Oh my goodness.
If I thought, you know, it wasn't scary enough.
That was.
No words, no words. It was just quite daunting being there and being the only woman.
Were you safe there? Like how many men were around?
There were at least one hundred men. There were moments that it was quite questionable whether I was actually safe to be there or not, considering I didn't speak the language yet. In this area because it's basically underground, this retention center, police don't care. They actually help the other people that are there get drugs, smokes marijuana, and so
they are smoking. And I have quite severi asthma and I just had an asthma attack, and the police were basically saying that they wouldn't help me unless I paid for help.
In the movies, in on TV, when someone's arrested, they're allowed one phone call. When you're arrested and you're at the airport, I assume they took your phone away? Were you allowed to contact anyone?
I was quite lucky that one of the police officers who were looking after me, I think he kind of had a bit of a soft spot for me, and he actually let me use his phone and his face walked to get in contact with my mum, And obviously at that time, my nanna actually replied saying, you know what a sick joke you're playing? When I was why would you say that you're dapping Columbia and they're thinking, are you kidding me? Why would it occur to someone to even make up a joke about something like that.
But basically, when I did ask to have a phone call, I was told no. When I was arrested, I was told that I'd have a lawyer and the translator come and help me through. I guess the first lot of paperwork never showed up either. I was told that I had to sign a bunch of paperwork that I had no idea what it said. And then basically, yeah, then I was just shipped off wherever I was saying, where.
Did your family think that you were?
My sister knew I was in Columbia, but at that time I did not have a relationship with my mom or my dad. Really, I was quiet out on my own. I've always had my differences with my mom.
Did your sister or any of your friends know what you were doing in Colombia?
No, no, no, No one knew.
So there was a lot of gaps to fill in. I imagine once you started to talk to people.
Yeah. Yeah, So I remember when I spoke to my sister and my mom, and you know, they were like, what happened? And I just said, you know, there was a hop of drugs found in headphones. And this is where I medituated that I had bought headphones as wedding gifts and that you know, the drug was inside of them. But the thing is, I never said I'd bought them as wedding gifts. I don't know if maybe they were
trying to put some pieces together. And when my mum and sister actually came to see me in jail of the first time, they basically said, look, we know there's lots of things you're not telling us. When you're ready, you can tell us when not going to force you. It's obviously something that has a lot more detail to it than anybody's capable of understanding in these moments. It was nice to feel that they were giving me that trust to obviously open up when I was ready and
I had processed everything. But in the meantime, everyone else was kind of starting to form their own versions of what happened, and I had no way of, I guess, coming out and saying, well, no, guys, that's wrong, because the only times I had a chance to even speak out it was never on my turns. It was always edited, it was always I guess, tried to make it sound more interesting.
When did you become aware of the nickname Cocaine Cassie.
I don't know when I became aware of it. I think it might have been when my mom told me that's what they were saying, because at the start it wasn't Cocaine Cassie. I think people are still quite unsure of I guess how things had gone down, and maybe reserving that judgment until they were like, yeah, no, she's guilty. But when she did tell me, I obviously I didn't like the name, but it just went hands in hand
with what that happened. Like even until today, I don't like the name, and obviously it's such a defining name if you hear you go on, yeah, she had something to do with drugs. At the end of the day, I've kind of just accepted the name without letting it affect me anymore. Working through the ropes process, I guess
to try and change that perception that I have. It's not easy, but I mean, even if it's one person out of a hundred that I managed to show the real me, it's just worth it because I'm not a bad person. Then you know, I did make a really bad mistake, but I'm trying to I get show people that one month's take doesn't define you.
It's funny. I've watched interviews with you before in like over the years, and when you've been asked about that, about the cocaine Cassie thing, You've had different reactions at different times, Like you've been irritated, you've been angry, you've been mortified, and now there's like a lightness about you. It's like you've kind of accepted it and you're laughing at it because it doesn't sting like it used to. Is that why?
Yeah? I think so. When I think probably the Firbs year year and a half, well probably yeah, a year and a half of my journey through all this, I was so angry, so angry with who, with myself, with the other people that were involved, I guess as well with the justice system. Like I was just angry at everyone and anyone. And I had lots of differences with my mum, with my boyfriend, with my lawyer, and I
was just constantly angry. In any of the first interviews or when I was on camera and I just looked in the face, it was because I was so angry. Yeah, And I remember walking into my first hearing and when I saw that it was full of media, I was like, why, why, why would you even try and get the medium bowl? Like why? That was the only thing that was going
through my head. And a lot of the deals that were taking place, I was kind of just thrown in the deep beats, like there was no benefit out of it. For me. It was purely, well, you've got to do this interview and doesn't matter the circumstances, just do it.
But who was doing those deals?
My mum was pretty much behind a lot of those feels.
Okay, Ah, So that's when people come out of the woodwork and suddenly start seeing the opportunity. Did you know I mean, obviously you're old enough to have lived through the Chappelle Corby story.
I can't actually remember when it all happened, but obviously I had heard little bits and pieces about it. Because I've never been much into watching news or anything. I
don't know why. It's just never been something that I've enjoyed. Obviously, after being arrested, that's all I would hear is a comparison between her and myself, and I think obviously in that moment, you feel what that other person would have felt in those moments too, because whether you know you did it or you didn't do it, you've got the
whole world that's coming down on you. You're physically finishing a sentence that you have no human rights, you have nothing, and then when you get out, you've got a whole another journey waiting for you. Wear The society is very unforgiving.
It's very difficult, I think, as someone who has done time to find their feet, because we become so accustomed to a routine and to I guess a treatment that we received that you kind of don't want to be around anyone, and you don't want anyone coming close, so you don't want to talk to anyone because you can't talk to anyone in dale because you don't know what be used against you.
So back to your when you arrived there, what are the conditions like in the jail you were sent to? And is that where you spent your whole sentence.
I was moved around quite a bit. I think I had a personal living tour of the dale. What anyone. I was taken to Yard one when I arrived, which is basically bat then was where all the newcomers would go, and then they would be sorted into different yards, determined through the crime that they committed. So you could say
it's organized. It used to be organized better said basically, they would try and keep foreigners and not so much life threatening people together and then obviously you've got your people that were quite dangerous and then consumers minor offenses.
They did try and split it up, I guess, but they also judged on the appearance of yourself, so you were quite I guess rude, aggressive didn't go well with the sorry you were already going to a bad yard, and I guess at the time that organization was good. It wasn't always like that. So from Yard one I was sent to yard five, which is supposedly the safest yard in the jail, which was actually where I had most of my runnings with people, which is also where the photos were leaked.
From what photos were leaked, it would.
Have been in May twenty seventeen. A photo was leaked where I was next to two girls and I was smiling. I think it was showing how gullible I really really was. Because one of the girls, her name was Julie. She came to look for me and she's like, no, we know that you don't have much clothing at the moment, so we want to give you some so we have something to change in. And at that time was like,
do I really smell that bad? Or She lived on the fourth floor, and when I went in, there was another girl there and they pulled out this bag of clothes and they're like, you should try that on, see what you like. Take it. And when I turned around, they had a phone, and in my head I was like, oh, we have phones in jail now, like I hadn't seen one yet, and they're just like, oh, it's her birthday. Can we get a photo with you? I thought, what's weet? But all right, sat down, took a photo with them.
Next minute, it's all prey with the media that I was having the time of my life in jail. It was on the weekend, so on the weekends there's visitors that come in and out. And while the visitors were lining up outside, the media had actually convinced some of the families to get photos and they would pay for photos. Actually this was obviously quiet when it was all very fresh still, and they were actually paying guards to try and get footage of me inside. And one of the
guards got caught and was fired on the fox. So Australian media, I did a good job.
Were there are other phonners there? When you were put into yard one?
There were actually a lot from Mexico, Italy, Germany, but there weren't many English speaking people.
Who did you gravitate towards because is the instinct. I've got to find some people, I've got to make some alliances.
I was always quite lucky that I was always drawn to like a mother figure. So when I got to Yard five, the lady that I happened to be living with in the cell, she took me on straight away and she was like, you know, she gave me home of I guess personal products yodaans so because you don't
get given any of this stuff. And when I was moved to a different yarn, also another lady kind of took me on as a mother figure and she was trying to, I guess, show me the ways of not trusting people, because didn't matter what yard I was in, something would always happen. So in yard seven, where it was maximum security, which I was moved to after I had obviously been threatened the photos were released, someone stole money from me. In the cell. We were actually in isolation,
so each person was basically insolitary in this yard. And they would say you can pay to either get a radio in if you want, you can get a TV in purely so you don't go insane. I thought, oh, I don't know how to do that because I haven't got anyone in Columbia to actually go and buy these things. And there happened to be one lady who spoke English. She used to live in Spain. She was from Venezuela, and she's like, oh, I've got someone who can help
you outside. You just need to transfer this to this account. And who fell in the trap this person did, so I think it wasn't a lot, but it was obviously just that insteat of I can't trust anyone.
I was going to ask, what you learned about trust?
Oh, it's actually really funny because I should probably be the person who did not trust them absolutely anyone af sure that's happened to me. But if anything, it's actually taught me to analyze the person really well, because I might be talking to my wife and I'll be like, oh, yeah, this person, Nah, I don't think so this person is going to do this, and without fail, I'm always right. So it taught me not so much not to trust people, but just to analyze them really well. I mean, in prison,
people just look out for themselves. And it took me a long time to get that through my head because I having been surrounded by people I guess that were well off.
So when you say people who were well off, do you mean there were other prisoners who were well off.
Yes, if you have money and you're in that dal or you can have whatever you want, like what. So I remember there's one girl. I did not get along with her at all purely because of the way she would treat people. She's very rich and she actually paid to get transferred to this yeah, the high security. Yeah, because she wanted to live on her own. She wanted to have all the phone she could get. She wanted to enter in clothing, entering, food, everything, and the guards
would basically obey her. So she would pay the guards and they would enter in whatever she wanted.
What was she in jail for.
She was in dere because her her ex husband wanted a divorce, and so she then killed her ex husband, then killed her sister in law, killed the lawyer and the judge.
Oh my god.
Yeah, she's an interesting person and we had a lot of difference.
The thing, Cassie, how do you have differences with someone who's killed lots of people? That doesn't seem sensible.
I think is because she thought she was better than everyone. And I think going into a place like this, you have to forget about social status, You have to forget about everything. You are exactly the same as everyone, because it doesn't matter what you've done. You've done something illegal and you're there for a reason. So I got alone with quite a two people, and you know, I would
actually train them. We do lunders what. It was a good distraction for me, So I would actually train a couple of girls, and and then it was Sophie, and Sophia's come up to me. She goes, I'll pay you triple what they're paying you if you train me. And I've kind of looked at Hannah, God, I don't need your money because I'm not asking for money from anyone to train them. And I said, that's what you do when you want to actually hang out with people and
be a decent person. And from there it was just an instant clash because she thought if she had money and she threw money at someone that they would basically bow her feet and I wouldn't do it. So it's from there we just had lots of differences from there, and she actually managed to get me removed from the yard. She paid to get me removed.
When you say differences, did she try to kill you?
No? No, no she didn't. She didn't try to kill me, but she did make it clear that she has like a seventy year sentence and an extra body on it didn't matter.
So wow, in terms of violence and the women that you were with, was there a hierarchy in terms of what women thought about the crimes of their fellow inmates, Like, was there a particularly heinous crime or was it just like, it doesn't matter if you're in here for robbery, drug smuggling, or murder. Everyone has a blank slate when they get to prison.
Okay, So the only crime that was kind of really separated was any kind of child related crime. They couldn't even be close to any other inmates, purely because a lot of the women that are in there actually have kids, and so they would look at these people and think, well, you know, I've got kids. One of you would have done that to mind child. So they were actually quite often in danger of being close to any other inmates. Other than that, there wasn't any other particular crime that
separated anyone. So you'd have your extortionists, you'd have your kidnappers, you'd have your money launderers, john traffickers, murderers, robbery.
Did you hang out with the drug traffickers? Was it like high school? I mean, I should laugh, it's not funny, but.
I think obviously the stories would go through And I did speak to quite a few bigger drug traffickers who you know, had been arrested with tons of cocaine and they got four years. So it was quite interesting to hear of their stories, and it showed such the imbalance in the justice system over there, because there might have been someone who had stolen two phones and they got twenty years. So if there is no actual guide or scale to go through salts, are you gonna say it's fair?
But I didn't really hang out with anyone in particular. It was kind of based on the person, not what they had done. It's kind of you get to know the person without judging them, because if I'm there too, I don't have a right to judge any one.
How long were you in prison before you received your sentence and what was that day?
Like, I got sentence on the first of November in twenty seventeen, I'd been there for six months, and I was in that six months I'd kind of been forced to learn Spanish because I didn't trust my lawyer. So I would literally sit down with a book that's called Equale Little Bemal, which is like your judge's law book, and I would go through the laws and I would learn where my kids actually fit into the justice system, and I would actually argue with my lawyer.
Hang on a second, you arrived in jail and in Colombia, not speaking any Spanish, you had to teach yourself not just Spanish, but also legal Spanish within six months. How did you do that?
The termination? No one was going to do it for me. I guess I wanted to take away that barrier that was really separating me from having communication and understanding every step of the way of what was happening. Because I didn't understand Gods, I didn't understand the medical center. I didn't understand anything. And then obviously, in my first hearing the translator that had actually been picked for my case, he wasn't translating properly, and for me, I was like, oh, no, here we go.
How did you know he wasn't translating properly if you didn't speak the language yet.
I had a translator who was with me, a lady who had actually come from Australia to translate, and she was horrified at the translation service that the prosecuted offers had to give it.
So, Cassie, how do you actually learn a language? I mean, it's not like you have access to the duo lingo app or anything in prison.
It goes back to like really old school with a language dictionary, and basically I would pick word for word. So in a sentence, let's say I wanted to say I'm hungry, I had to figure out i'm and i'm such a common use, so I'd be like, okay, this they and then hungry is hungry. So it was like a process of elimination of Once I learned a word, I would just remove it from the words that I needed to learn. And it took me to actually properly speak it and understand word for word. It probably took
me about eight nine months. And even now, like I think back at it and I don't remember the switch. I don't remember that day where suddenly I could be thinking in financial and actually speaking English or vice versa, because now I think in both languages, like I've not lost it at all, and it's quite interesting.
Actually, one of the things that freaks me out the most about being in prison is the boredom. Did learning a language and having a goal provide something to do and some distraction and a purpose.
I think learning the language was my stepping stone to being an English teacher, because I wanted to teach my inmates English because in Colombia not many people actually speak English, and if you do speak there's a whole world of opportunity, like it lifts you up in the social scale, in
the working scale, everything. So I really wanted to, I guess, try and help them find a new path when they left, using the English that they had learned, so they didn't feel like this time in between had been kind of lost or they'd leave thinking, oh what am I going to do now? So my purpose, I guess you could say, actually became helping people inside jail. So I would teach them English. I would actually help them write their legal letters.
It was really funny, actually the foreigner helping them do legal letters, Like that's how well I'd actually managed to learn the language, Like wouldn't just speak, I could read it and I could write it. So the amount of people that would come looking for me just to sit down and have a chat and you know, try and have motivation to get through another day, it was a lot.
And so it felt like my time there I had actually used it well, so not only to reflect on my own problems, on my own issues, to actually be able to invest that time and I guess help other people find a good way to deal with what happened as well. When you discount you have to leave your yard and go to I guess school, which is inside the prison.
What does discount mean.
Discount is when you work to reduce your sentence. So in that sense, if you don't discount, you can't leave your yard. You are literally there until food's called and then that's it. So I obviously had the between eight am to midday, I was outside for classes and then back into the yard for lunch, and then back out again until about three point thirty and then I was
back into the yard. So obviously that distracted me quite a lot, but it also gave me that movement through the prison if I needed to submit paperwork, if I needed to speak to the director, So that in that sentence there was obviously that with discounting, which allowed one to move more up.
Next, Cassie talks about the day that she was sentenced to seventy two months behind bars. She talks about how people have sex in prison and the very public marriage proposal that she really didn't want.
The day that you.
Received your sentence, What was the sentence and how did you feel about it on that day?
So I received seventy two months. In Columbia, they always say months. They don't say years. It's more daunting for me anyway, a six year sentence. The prosecutor had told me that he had requested in my file that doing discount dogs, I should be allowed to be released after two years on probation, which was burely dus one of his tap to get me to sign the plea deal,
because it didn't happen like that at all. In part of it, I was still quite annoyed that my only option had been to sign a plea deal because my lawyer did not want to go down the other road.
He refused the other road being what being going to trial and pleading not guilty.
Yeah, he didn't want to go to trial. He didn't want to invest money investigators. So I kind of felt like I didn't have an option there. And then at the same time, I guess I knew the time that I would have to serve, so there was kind of that okay, mentally, I know how to prepare myself and what I need to do if I want to get out on probation or whatever available. It was really mixed feeling, and I remember going back to the yard and I was crying. I never cried in front of anyone, cried
when I was alone. Why because I didn't want in particular when obviously media, I didn't want them thinking that I was victimizing myself or trying to make people feel sorry for me. So I never showed emotion in front of the media. I didn't want my family seeing me in that emotional wreck either, because it was hard enough seeing you know, family member in those circumstances, and then to see that mentally they're not copying. I couldn't do that. But then when I got back to the yard, I
was crying. I was frustrated. I'm sad, and I wasn't seeing that clean and self. Okay, all right, Cassie, get hisself together. You need to wake out your plan. Now. I was in that moment of well, six years, seventy two months, and you'd go through and I think like in days, it was three thousand or four thousand days on the lady who had kind of taken me on as a mother figure, she came in and she's like, don't cry. She's like, you know what, it's gonna be fine,
You're gonna get through it. You just need to process what's happening and then just just do it. And I was thinking in the moment off, well, thank you for bad advice. You know, that makes me feel so much
better in this line, right. But I think something that really helped me push through that mental block of well six years was the fact that as bad as I felt that I had line at that moment, as bad as I felt that my situation was, there was always going to be someone who was going through something so much worse. I didn't have children, and that was something
that I really focus on. I didn't have children. There was so many women there that have children outside abandoned because no one could after that, they would have to give up their rights as parents, put them in the foster system. That's where he came from wanting to help people because I thought, you know, I went through some
pretty crappy things, but I'm okay, you know. So it was like, if I can help them just feel good for a day or a moment, they're the little things that allow us to just move forward and take one day at a time, because that's all we can do. There is one day at a time.
When you went into prison, you're engaged to a guy called Scott. Yeah, how'd that pan out?
Well, it didn't last very long. Purely because I would call him, I guess, wanting to have a normal chat, right, a normal chat about life, and you know he would parlol all his problems outside.
While you were in prison.
And so he'd be like, no, this is happening, this is happening, I need these. I'm thinking, oh my god, like I can't deal with with all of that, Like, I'll be here as much as I can. And then it would be he would ring me out to complain about the problems with my mum.
Do you get phone privileges? Do they listen to your phone calls?
So for each yard there is one phone that allows incoming calls, so you might be there for like three hours trying to actually get a call to be accepted. Or the other option is we can buy phone cards and with that you can call out. However, the phone cards are like three thousand pays and five thousand pay so and I would literally get from three thousand pacer, i'd get like a minute phone call and from five
thousand i'd get two and a half. Because the rate to call home was really expensive, and not only that, the hours the hour difference was impossible.
And how long did you stay together before it ended.
I think we were together until January and twenty eighteen, but before then it had already finished. I guess you could say like there was no real communication anymore. It almost like he would call you because he felt like he had to type thing, not because he wanted to.
And I think he for me was just like a comfort zone type thing more than anything, because even before coming to Colombia, you know, being engage, I never actually wanted to marry him, so it was quite a transformation time or in the middle there.
Really tell me about love and sex in prison?
Okay, So in prison once a mon there are what they call conjugal visits, basically a sex visit, which is throughout the normal time that they do visits on the weekend. You have to have a registered partner to come in and see you. If you do have a partner inside the present, you can also request to go to where they live or they go to you. Apparently sexual health is very important in prison.
Wow, Where do these conjugal visits happen?
In the cells? So if you share a cell with one to five people, basically you would have to take turns of who would have the visit. So I will actually quite lucky. I never never had one, even having I guess I had girlfriends inside, but I never felt that I wanted to, I guess to say, I never felt that connection to actually want to commit to having a conjugal visit.
What it mean to have a girlfriend inside? Was that a really common thing?
It was very common. You would actually see people who have their husbands who live outside and then they have their girl braends. But it was quite common, I guess because more than the sexual side, I think it was just that having someone to confide in to share times make it a little bit easier, and ideally it would always start because they're your friend, and then it kind of just goes from there.
Had you been with women before?
Uh? Yes, When I was younger, I actually knew that I liked women, but I was too scared to come out. And I had been so convinced that after having I guess, whether it'd be kissing a girl or having you know, a relationship with a girl, something would always go bad
in my life. And so I started kind of convincing myself that I was having such a hard time in life because I wasn't normal well, and so that's where you know, I started forcing myself to have boyfriends and try and be normal, and then it was horrible that I can tell you right now. I hated having sex with a man. I hated it. And it was just purely having boyfriends for an image, because I mean, you can speak to any of my exes and I wasn't
sexually active with them. It was more so that having them there, you know, sharing a meal, going out to the movies, and so for me, it was always more on that side of just a friend. Really.
Yeah, right, So in some ways being in prison and having no other options was it a bit freeing.
So when I arrived to prison and I saw how free and unjudgmental everything was, it was I still thought. Don't get me wrong, I fought it for quite some plan because I was like, no, I can't be the new girl who suddenly is a lesbian who will be picked on. So I kept it to myself for at least another year or so before I kind of just let it out. And I think this was also part of my reflection process of finally allowing me to be me.
And the thing is I already had the worst reputation, so I'd thought, you know what, what could be worth, you know, I can't get any more on the bottom. And I guess coming out and being around people who actually supported that it really helped boost that self esteem of Okay, I can do this, you know. So it was really enlightening, felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders.
In prison, the prison you were in, was there a lot of casual sex or it was more relationships?
I think it was more relationships then casual sex.
And I can't imagine there's much privacy in jail. No where do you hook up.
They would do it in the cells, like they no worries about that, and there would be people, let's say it wasn't a sex visit and two pop would going at it in a cell. They would actually pay someone to keep watch to make sure no guard was coming.
So would the guards just turn a blind eye, or if there was no one being paid, they'd tell you to stop.
It, so if you get caught, you would actually be separated and sent to different yards. And it also be something they called an in fordy, which is like a behavior record, so you'd now have bad behate.
Yeah right, so it wasn't as easy as some might imagine. Yeah, no, it wasn't and some planning was requiet. Absolutely, you got engaged in prison, and for reasons that I can't explain. I've seen the video. Someone took a video of it, and it was.
Leaked or sold.
I should say, no doubt to the media. Tell me about Jolie.
So this one was an interesting one. We were friends, you know, it went from friends at pajure Kitsie and then I guess relying on that friendship until one day we had actually come back in from the exercising that we're allowed to do, and she's really weird and there she's like, you can't come out and sell okay, And then when I did come out, there was this huge post we married me. Oh, everyone in the yard had literally come to watch this. I can't think of anything
worse than a public proposal. I had not actually considered marrying this girl, and now I've been put on the spot of.
We marry How long had you been together?
I think we would have been together maybe like four or five months, right, And so I've come out and she did this whole speech and I kind of just looked at her, and I looked at everyone, and I go yes, because I didn't know what to do, and I thought, you know what to leave here? I leave this area, no one will em I know. And then when we went and told you right, I said, you know, I don't want to marry you, like right now, we are in such an enclosed environment. We don't know what
will happen when we go outside. The relationship will be completely different. And she's like, no, it's fine, you know, just looking at the promise, Rey, she knew that I wasn't going to marry her, but I guess kind of went along with the idea of it, which was an error in this time that I guess I didn't realize that I'm falling into that because we were not good
for each other at all. She very toxic person. Being with a woman you expect to receive the same treatment that you would give them, not the whole I'm better than you. You need to do what I say type thing. So at the start she was a really really nice person, and then probably when she thought she had control of me, completely changed.
You were released from prison early. When did you find out that your sentence had been reduced and you were going out?
So I had a meeting with my judge. It would have been in December twenty nineteen, and I actually wasn't going to talk to her. We didn't get along very well. Her son had had an overdose on drugs and unfortunately passed away, so she was quite hard shouldn't any type of case that involved drugs. And the first time I'd ever met with her, she's like, you know what, don't bother coming to see me. It's six years, that's it, So why would I bother going a talking tree again
me just to be let down. So when I hadn't saw her this day, it was the end of the day and someone was like, why don't you just go and talk to her? You know, she's in a good mood. I thought, yeah, what's a good mood from a pig this lady? So I thought, all right, gone in there, sat down, and she goes, hi, Hi, the big Spanish shit said yeah, that's how long I had not seen her. I had not lost any false hope in going to see her and waiting for an answer that I knew
I wasn't going to get. And she goes, what have you been doing? And I'm pretty much just holding you know that I've been teaching, and she brought up my file and she's looking and she's, oh, you've got a fair amount of discount. I don't on yeah, I think I had maybe like eight or nine months that i'd managed to wake up over two and a half years. And she goes, you know what, Cassandra, because they don't say Cassie over there, it's all full name, So why
are you just send me in your paperwork? And I'm going oh, and I'm thinking in my head i'm doing the maths. I'm going I don't have time yet to do that. So i'd be like, hey, thanks you, and I left and I didn't send my paperwork in why because I knew by law that I had to have three fifths of my sentence to be considered for PEROT and I didn't have that yet, and I did not want to be let down by sending it and then her going oh no, sorry, can't do it yet. Well
I thought, okay, I'm going to be smart. I'm just going to wait the eche of time and i'll send it in when I do have time. So it was
in February. In February, I managed to saw out everything that I needed to legally are us for her role, send it in and then I didn't hear anything at all that'd be and the prison was always making up excuses for not sending paperwork that the judge needs, so they have to send through your behavioral report, the discount report, and there would always be we don't have any paper, we don't have any print, ink, the internet's down. Like getting out of that place, they make it in possible.
So when obviously the judge actually subpointed my documents because they realized that it was taking way too long. And then I think it was in March, towards the end of March, and they just started calling every day, calling judges of us every day. I thought, you know what, I'm just going to be a paved in the yards now signed cooler, and the assistant be like, no, nothing yet, nothing yet. And then it so happened the last weekend in March. Hadn't called him a few days. I don't
know why han't it called. And I woke up on the Monday and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna go on cold. So I'm cold out of the office and the assistant already near my boy, and You're like, I, Cassandra, am I I'm just checking to see if if anything's been untrued, and he goes, yeah, it's been approved, right kind of. And I'm god, what, like he took me like time to process that. And he goes, it's been approved and no, I'm like, don't cheat about these things.
He's like, why would I joke about this? It's my job. I'm like, well, I didn't mean it like that. I'm just trying to process it. He's like, yeap, you need to organize your bond caution, which was about I think two thousand dollars, and then you need to send the receipt to the judge's office and then they will issue the freedom slip.
Freedom slip.
Yeah, And I didn't tell anyone, didn't tell anyone why. I back to my and I just sat there and I was kind of picking the people that I was telling. So I've gone down to the lady who had received me the first time in that yard, and I've gone, you know what, I've just been told that my parole has been granted. And she started to cry, You're leaving me, you know, leave me your line, You're gonna forget about me.
And I'm thinking, no, it's not the case. I'm like, if anything, I can probably help you more on the outside than the inside. And then obviously by people started to put it together because people were coming to visit me and they'd be like, oh, can you leave me this Chlothy, because the idea obviously I didn't really want to take anything that had been inside there of kind of leaving anything, I guess with that kind of energy there.
And then time went by, and I had a friend on the outside now and I'm arguing with her every day because I'm thinking, why it's taking so long, and the poor thing like she was trying to do.
A friend that you'd made in prison, who is now named Crystal. Yeah, and when you'd spoken to the guy on the phone, had he given you any indication of time frame?
No? And the thing is we were in Colombia at that point. We were actually about to go into quarantine for COVID, So I had days to get this organized
or I would not have been released. Crystal running a mark out sign, she went and did the deposit for the caution, took it to the Dadgit's out birth and then nothing happened either, And so I started pressuring the guards from the inside as well, and I said, you know what, it's come up on the system online now that it says that my freedom slip has been issued.
And there's a law in Columbia that says once it's been issued, they can't keep you for more than twenty four hours because then it comes kidding, it's nice to know these sorts of law. Its once some of the guards are saying, no, nothing's come through. Yeut. And then one guard who I got along with really well. She hated me when I arrived, but by the end she absolutely loved me. And I said, look, it comes up in the system that it was sent. It was Friday.
Now she's look, I'm going to have a look, but I can't promise you anything. So she went out there and probably within like two hours, would have been about midday on Friday on the third of April, and she goes, look, here's what you mean to sign, which is basically compromising that I would not leave the country, that I had to report to immigration. Looked a month. I thought, Oh, okay, She's like, I'm going to do this, like now I have to do an Interpol chat. She said that might
take a while. Okay, so but if everything goes wow, you should be released today. She's like, you should be released before six pm, and say, I'm excited. I've rung up Crystal, like I'm getting out today. You need to come and pick me up. And so this poor girl, she's she's coming. She was waiting outside the prison for hours, and I didn't hear anything back from the guard. Nothing. We did the head count, and we all know that once they've done the head count, that's it. Nobody leaves,
nobody comes it. And so I I don't think I'm getting out, and literally it was such a down feeling because that Saturday we were starting quarantine. And then so I've gone and actually changed into my padama and I've gone and use a burn a phone in the toilet, just to tell Crystal, you know, just go home, don't keep waiting around. And then the guard's called my name
and I'm either literally throwing this figure. I don't need a bad behavior record now, and I've walked up and it happened to be one of the guards who had also received me, and she goes, what.
Are you doing?
I don't know. She goes, You've got a guilty looker on your face. She's like, you don't know how to lie. They'd got no, no, no, nothing, and she had a piece of paper in a hand. She goes, you're ready, and I'm here for what Like At this point, I was so convinced that I wasn't getting out, and she goes, it's time to go, and I literally going, fuck, no, how's I have a rush to change? And everyone's coming
out just saying bye to me. And then when I walked out of my passageway, the guards had actually opened up the other passageways so people could say by to me as well, which was quite overwhelming because I had probably been one of the most hated people when I arrived,
so everyone was hugging me. And then I got sent to medical to get checked over that I was in the same condition that I arrived, and then I was out, and when I was coming back from medical, you actually have the pass or all the arts, and it was really overwhelming because the guards were actually allowing people to come out of each yard to say goodbye to me.
Oh yeah, emotional okay, And I was quite overwhelming because I didn't think that I had made so much of a difference that people would actually, I guess, feel that kind of emotion with me. So they all saying goodbye to me, thanking me, and then I walked. I walked down and the guards stopped me, and she goes, if you only saw the person that we will see wise, that's it. And so I walked out the front. And it was really weird now walking through the prison. I
didn't feel like prisoner. And so I walked out the front. I was officially signed out of their books, and I walked right up to the blue gate and kind of stood back, and you know, all the guards coming to say goodbye to me as well, and the lady who was working the door, she gets you ready as a no, so I'm not ready, So I don't know what wait to me. On the other side, I was terrified, so scared.
What were you scared of life?
I didn't know how to pick myself up and keep going. So I brought through the door and Crystal was still there, and she was in her own little world. She was actually hitting on an army guy to be precise. I wanted to stand there and realized that they've come out. She's screaming. She ran over to me, and you know, I stood there and it was so surreal, like it wasn't hitting me that I had just left prison and
I wouldn't be going back in there. And then obviously we got in a taxi and going through like everyone was ready in quarantine, so it was a ghost town. So it didn't really give me that feeling off and back in society. It was kind of like the oh, all right, I'm out of prison. I've going to lock myself in a room now because of quarantine.
I just loved that conversation and I wanted to keep going, so we spoke more about her life after her time in prison. Coming out was daunting, she says, but it was much harder even than she could have imagined. Here's a little taste.
I felt like every time I tried to take a step forward in the right direction, I would just get not back, or I'd hit a reap wall. Because I couldn't work because I had no papers. I couldn't receive money from my family because I had no papers, I couldn't know anything. And then obviously the polstant fear of when I had to go out and do food shopping that if I got stopped by a police officer, well I was going back to prison.
Because of her parole conditions, she I'm allowed to come back to Australia, and also because it was COVID, she couldn't even leave the house. But she wasn't going to let her mistakes to find her. And what's really interesting about this next phase of her life is how she just shrugged off the shame. It's such a great conversation. To listen to part two of my conversation with Cassie,
just click the link in the show notes. The executive producer of No Filter is Kimberly Bradish, with sound production by Madeline Juannu. I'm mea Friedman and thank you for having me in your years.
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