Hey, thanks for joining us again. Welcome the Trucking Risk and Insurance podcast with your co-host Chris Harris and John Farquhar today. Uh, we're gonna talk about some hot stuff coming down the pipe here right now. So, you know, driver Inc ELDs. Yeah. Hot items. There's no doubt about that. So anyway, so come along, join us while we gibber jab about what's happening today's. Hey Chris, how you doing?
Giber, jab, Gijab buddy, Giber jab, And in case our audience is wondering those who are watching us, yes, we have our poppies on. This happens to be, um, February the 11th. November the 11th. Sorry. Yeah,
If it's February, there better be more snow on the ground now
than that Yeah. We'll go with November 11th. That would be a good day. Exactly, exactly. So John ny, we are talking about ELDs. We are talking, which topic do you w ant to tackle first?
/Let's start with ELDs. I think you, you started that. Let's go with that. I think
that'll be fun. All right. ELDs. /It is El let me just find here. Uh, so for
those that may be tuning in, a new ELD stands for electronic logging device. So it's a, a means to electronically record your hours of service, your hours
of. Well, and look at that. I bring up the screen in and I'm on the screen, but where's co-host? Oh,
well he's, I, I walked over here to get a drink.
Yeah, I, I guess what prompted this was, um, an article in Truck News, uh, which I found to be very interesting. So now we'll come back to here where Johnny can be on the screen too. Yep. I don't, John, we test this before I hit record. We did. Where did you go? Ah,
Just who knows? Even my wife says I show up mysteriously some days.
Ah, so the ELDs are in Ontario at least are gonna be January the first of 23 that you can now get a ticket. Yes. Soft. How about, um, Yeah, go ahead. I
was gonna say, so the law has actually been in effect since last year. Okay. Right. Uh, but there's been this soft enforcement and, and actually just, I just recently got some news here at, uh, our local Fleet Safety Council chapter meeting that we had earlier this week. And one of the updates was, was from the Windsor mto. And these guys have been chomping at the bit to lay fines for a very long time, but their hands have been tied due to this soft enforcement.
Uh, and, and they had rhymed off a number of items, and I, I, I'm not gonna rhyme 'em off, I can't remember off the top of my head, but there was illicit use of the device and they knew it was happening, but they could not charge the drivers because of soft enforcement. So all
they could tell me was, Give me an example. What do you mean by illicit?
They were driving on personal conveyance time. I tell you, they were operating the device in off duty or on duty mode and not drive time. They were, they were, uh, forcing the device out, operating with a device that was not compliant with the Canadian federal regulations.
Okay. But if they were operating in and not on duty or not in drive time, why couldn't they lay a. Um, FALs.
Well, uh, they were able to do that, but it's the device they want to hit them with. Oh, okay. It's the device they want to hit, so, so they can't, they can lay in hour as a service charge. Sorry, I, I didn't clarify that, but it's the ELD device that they really want force out because it's like, you're not using a legal device, we want to slap you. And unfortunately they can't put them on a service because they can't enforce that right now. So, So
yeah. My question is what devices are legal?
Well, that's interesting. We have 55 on the list from Transport Canada, and of those 55, there are 20 vendors providing those 55 devices. So really it's, it's not a whole lot of vendors. 20 that's less than two dozen vendors, and many of them have multiple devices because some of them are used on your Android device or your Apple device. So, So they need to have
multiple. And I fixed it. Johnny,
look at that. I'm here. So, but yeah, so, so we've got lots of, lots of vendors. Uh, and, and the big guys that we've always talked about, when were they gonna show up on the list? Well, they're here. Yeah, they're here.
Um, and to highlight what John just said, there are 55 devices approved, but not 55 manufacturers. And I'll just, Fleet Complete is a great example. They've got one, two. Oh four. Four different things approved. This is a list, and I'll put this in the show notes down below, this link to Transport Canada. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. because Ontario has been very clear, and I think most provinces are as well, saying that they are using the exact same list that Transport Canada has approved. Correct.
Certainly Ontario isn't, we're our, the largest trucking province, so that's fine. Most of you will be covered by that. And as John said, look it, there's six pages. Mm-hmm. of, and we'll just go to the last page here. You know, Trimbles there and, uh, you know, a lot of different manufacturers are here. The big boys Yep. Are now here. Yep. Exactly.
Exactly.
So now the, the one thing that I. While we're talking about this, that Pmtc had said, um, and just go to this very quickly. Yes,
this is important. Go ahead. Well, you need to confirm model number and software version. You can't just go, Oh, I'll get the Trimble device. That'll work good. I'll get their, their version of it and whatnot. No, no, no. You have to confirm the model number and the software version because these guys have multiple model numbers, multiple software versions, because maybe they're in the US as well.
Well, in the US there isn't the third party certification as there is here in Canada, so you need to go. What device and what software version is approved by Canada. Now, I expect that list will probably grow with other models and versions. Uh, but right now we've got 55 that are approved and ready to go for January 1st, 2023.
Yeah, and you know, here we are. Almost the middle of November. So if you are a carrier that has not selected your device yet mm-hmm. I would get shaken. Oh. Because,
well, and, and, and good luck. Because a lot of 'em, if you're looking to put a device in the truck, a lot of these suppliers don't have supply. Their focus has been existing clientele and making sure they're up to snuff. So if you're coming out of the woodwork and going, Well, I guess I better get an OmniTRAX device, or I better get an Isaac device. Well, you, you may not have you, You probably left it too late. You should have been talking to these guys a year ago and
getting this set up. Unfortunately this hit at a very bad time in the US They were, what do you call it, turning off the 3G network. Yes. And uh, so that made a lot of devices for the US not compatible anymore cause they had to be able to operate on the 4G network as we move to 5g. Yeah. Um, So a lot of the old devices had to be replaced. So the omnitracks were those types of customers or, uh, suppliers that have had a lot of devices in the market, already had to go and replace a lot.
So they've been working their tails off doing that. Taking care as, as you said, existing customers. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah. Anyways, you better get shaken. Yeah. Your only choice might. The devices that work on cell phones or tablets. Yep. Because you may not be able to get, uh, the hardware mm-hmm. some of the nice devices that are built for trucks. Mm-hmm. that's the disadvantage in my mind of using a, a cell phone or a tablet. Uh, they work great.
But with the constant pounding and everything, Yeah. I'm just not sure, um, the longevity of those devices and Right. But I have no experience and I've never had anybody tell me anything. Negative about that either I just right my own thought process. Yep.
Well, and then add onto that D driver, driver training. Every device works differently. So even if a driver's worked with a, you know, worked at another company using a different type of advice and or a device, and then comes to work for you guys and you got a different device, you gotta train 'em all because they work slightly different. You need to make sure the driver's doing it and on top.
Uh, probably one of the biggest dilemmas that I see when going out to see clients is their hours of service training. Uh, electronic device training is not in depth enough. Yes, we're still seeing lots of violations being issued because the drivers don't know or understand how to operate the device properly. So this is causing a lot of grief with, uh, your carrier.
Silly things like did you know you have to be able to hand the device out the door? Um, not being able to show an inspector the instructions for the device. Yep. Not there's what, three different sets of instructions? I think one for the device, one for if the device malfunctions and what's a third? There's a third. I forget now how to transmit data. Yeah, how to transmit data. Yep. So yeah, if you can't, as a driver, if you can't show the officer those things, um, you can get a ticket in.
Interesting. Companies aren't teaching it. Yeah. Yeah.
I was gonna say, interesting enough, one client we were dealing with, they've got a number of violations with drivers because, um, they were meeting up with law enforcement in the us not so much here in Canada, but in, in the us and the officer was asking them to relay the data via the method approved. Okay. Yeah. And the drivers would freeze up and, and go, uh, I don't know how to.
Uh, and you have a sheet, but, but I think part of it is the, uh, transport companies, motor carriers are not teaching the drivers how to transmit that data. It's like you should be demonstrating that in your courses with the drivers in the training. It's like, okay, let's, here's how you do this. Yeah. I'm gonna ask you to transmit it. Here's what I want you to do. And follow these stepss. And when you do it and then have the sheet to back it up, you're good.
But one of, one of the, um, False, as I say, was because they felt the drivers were freezing up because they were intimidated by law
enforcement. Well, and that's true. I mean, I worked with a carrier and we, because they are a, one of the new Canadian type companies. Mm-hmm. and I worked with a carrier and we did our own. ELD videos. Yep. Because I got one of their employees who spoke the majority of the language, and this is pungent. Perfect. Perfect. And we, him and I worked together and created a whole series of help videos for their ELD device. Excellent, excellent.
Made it, put it on, It's actually on their website under the, you know, you could hide it a bit, but Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was in their native language. Why not? Perfect. It was, it was great anyways, But, uh,
that's the way to do it. That's the way to do it. Why not you, you know, you don't have to, you know, use a generic training. Use something that works for your company and, and your drivers.
Yeah. And with cell phones today, everybody's got a good camera. I mean, it doesn't take much. Nope. For those of you that are watching, I'm using my cell phone as my webcam and it's sitting there in a tripod like doesn't take much.
Damn. You look good, Chris. You look good. That camera really
makes you look good. It's a face I was born with, but the pictures good, you know? Um, yeah. You don't need a fancy microphone like that. You can buy a lapel mic for like $50, and so you've got a free cell phone or your cell phone and a $50 mic. You can make great. How to videos exactly, and a little bit of self-promotion. If you need help with that, hey, I can come here and help you got a charge, You know? Yeah,
why not? But that's a great idea. So help your drivers. Help them better understand what they need to do, set them up for success.
Yep. Um, that, is that what we wanted to talk? Oh, last thing about, um, let's go back to this and we will wrap up the e l D portion by me switching to this screen. Here we go. Nope, I didn't wanna, I wanna bring you back on. Hey, there we go. I gotta hit the, Hey. Okay. The exception, so the ELD rule that takes place in January the first of 2023, where you can, will start getting tickets. There's a few exceptions. Yep. Let's not have Canada roll it all out, all out together.
No, no, no. I gotta thank our buddy Mike Million from Pmtc for putting this list together. Cool. Because that's, I don't know where did you see it, but that's where I saw it was from Mike. Yep. Yep. Yeah. He's been,
he's been a huge advocate for this.
Yes. So, um, British Columbia and Quebec, sometime in 2023, not January the first, but sometime in 23, they anticipate. That one rolling out Northwest Territories are gonna roll it out by the end of January of 23. So not, maybe it's February the first, Who knows, But it's gonna be early 23 for them. Alberta and Saskatchewan. What's happening out there? Johnny? Do you know?
Uh, at this point in time, they're not, uh, looking to put in any. Legislation or regulations with, uh, ELDs and their provinces. And, uh, I actually read an article, it was a while ago now, and I, I hope they're changing their mind. Uh, but the government in Saskatchewan said we're quite happy with paper and, uh, I know that Saskatchewan Trucking, uh, association is dead set against that. They wanna move forward, they wanna get in with the times.
So, but yeah, those two provinces are, Yeah, they haven't made any
decisions at all yet. Yeah. And, um, PEI. This province doesn't need legislation. it's so small. The
whole, the whole islands fits in the one 60 rule
which I, when I first read that, I went, What? That doesn't, and then I thought about it, I went, Well, yeah, it does make sense. They're all 160 kilometer exempt, so, Exactly. Um, exactly. It was kinda. In my mind, humorous, but, uh, hey. Yep. So, all right, let's change to subject number two. I think we beat the heck out of, Oh, this is a good one. Yes. I didn't swear, but we beat the heck out of ELDs. Get ready for your ELDs.
Yeah. If you need help selecting an ELD provider, reach out to John or I, We can answer some questions. And of course our contact info was in the show notes down below, but, and
there's some good providers out there and everybody on that list refer to that list to, to find a provider if you haven't already. Yeah.
Um, Driver Inc. Since we're hearing the screen here, ever ending. We'd start off with this one. Yeah. Driver ink. Never ending, but the, for you and I, you and I are both on the same page on this. We both disapprove, uh, at least I shouldn't speak for you. I certainly disapprove of driver ink. I don't think it's fair. Yep. I know you agree, but I shouldn't put words in your mouth,
Oh, no, you're not. I have no fear. No, no. We're on the same page here, so,
so, uh. How do you say, is it Seamus? Shamus? Shamus Shamus Seamus or Jr. Our federal transport minister came out and said, We're going after the trucking companies that don't give truckers their rightful benefits. Yep. And I wanna at this point just remind truck drivers that as of, is it January that if you are a regulated federal regulated employee, Is it January that the 10 days take effect? Uh, end of December. They say. End of December.
Okay. So if you are a federally regulated employee, and I stress that part, you are eligible for 10 paid six, eight. Well, a driver ink fell. It doesn't get that benefit. Nope.
Well, but there's some other benefits that a lot of these drivers don't seem to realize either. You know, as an employee versus a subcontractor, a driver ink driver, you're missing out on a ton of benefits. So, you know, um, your Canada pension plan c p. Everybody's required to contribute to that program, you know, for future opportunities that you know, when I retire, I'm gonna collect the benefit of sorts. Well, your employer is required by law to equal that.
CPP benefit that comes off your pay? Well, if, if you're doing the driver ink model, guess what? Your employer is not your employer and they're not contributing. So you're getting stuck paying that all on your own. Well,
if they're paying, Sorry, John.
Well, if they're paying. Yeah. So, Well, revenue Canada's gonna get their bite out of it at the end of, you know, when it comes tax time anyway. Uh, How much are you paying? You're probably not paying your fair share. So it's not gonna do you any good when you decide to retire
job. So it's my belief that there are many Driver Inc. Drivers out there who do not, um, follow the law.
Oh, I agree a hundred
percent. I agree. A hundred percent. Submissions to CRA if they are there. Yep. Are not what they should be anyways. Yeah. For a number of different reasons. I don't agree with the driver ink model. The drivers don't have the protection from Not at all. I mean, I know one driver ink company that if you have a crash mm-hmm. the $5,000 deductible is yours. Yes. And that's illegal. Well, it's not illegal if you're Driver Inc. Because as an employee business to business, but Right, right.
Yeah. I mean, there are so many reasons I'm against Driver Inc. Well, and, And
Driver Inc. Doesn't make the kind of revenue to be able to pay for a $5,000 deductible or more. You know, and that's not fair. It's, it's, as an employee, you have those protections to say, No, you cannot touch my paycheck. You cannot deduct things from my paycheck. Interesting. And I have a lot of drivers don't realize this. Um, you know, usually after a, uh, maybe a crash or a violation or something like that, they may get terminated as, as a driver. In driver.
They just very easily poof, there's a curb. Well, under federal law, you cannot be terminated without just cause. As an employee. So there's a protection there. You know, you have rights to go back against that employer if you've been wrongfully terminated. Yep. What happens if you're outta work? Like what?
What if you get stuck and you go, Okay, well I just got laid off from my job because the company, you know, got rid of 10 trucks and I was one of those guys and I can't find another job for a couple of months
as we head into a recess.
Yes, sir. And that's what's gonna happen. So, you know, now all of a sudden you've got no job, you got no income
and you got noi.
Exactly. So if you're paying, paying for your employment insurance and your employer was paying their share as well, you would be able to go, Hey, I'm out of a job. I can't find a job, there's no work right now. Um, let's, let's take in the collect some. Yeah.
Oh, and John, you froze there, but, um, as soon as you come back, we, I will welcome you back. Hopefully it's, um, not a permanent thing. I just wanted to hit on this, that, um, our friend Mike McCan, uh, doesn't believe the, the fine if you are caught by the federal government that they are supposed to be enforcing now. Is $250,000. Hey, there we go. Hey, you're back. Sorry. Lost you is two $50,000.
Mike McCan for one says that's not enough because some of these bigger companies, um, that are heavily into the driver ink model, and I'm thinking of one that is rumored to have 3000 drivers that are in the driver ink model, Uh, $250,000. Not a deterrent. Um, if they were to get that fine every year.
Oh yeah, no, it'd be easier to pay the fine than it would be what they should be paying.
Yeah. So I just wanted to highlight that. Uh, at least one person says that's not enough. Perhaps it should be a scaled fine, you know, based on revenue or, uh, size of the trucking company because a $250,000 fine to a 25 truck. Yeah. Would be devastating. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And put them out of business. Yep. But to some of the larger fleets that we have here in Canada. Mm-hmm.
it would just be a cost of doing business, I think is not to put words into Mike's uh, mouth, but I think that's what Mike means.
Yep. Yep. Exactly. Agreed.
So, Driver Inc. They are supposed to be cracking down in 23. How long ago did we have a, uh, an episode that we talked a hundred percent about driver ink and we said the same thing and it's gotta be about a year ago, I gotta
think. Yes. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, I think it was about that time.
So, and nothing's happened in the past year to make me think. No. Anything changed?
There's, there's been a couple of, uh, investigations or audits, I guess you could say, uh, but nothing big. They talked about naming names and, uh, talking about the fines that were being laid. And I, I haven't seen anything publicly announced or anything
along that line, so yeah, I'm not, I mean, I've heard rumors that some companies have been audited. Yep. Um, But I haven't heard of any fines. I haven't heard of a company being audited by cra. What I have heard is WS I b going Ws I? Yes. Yes. So that's only in Ontario and many of the driver in companies do comply with W S I B laws. Right. Which again, is why you driver ink then, but, uh mm-hmm. Mm. And for the drivers out there.
By the way, your company is supposed to, if you are Driver Inc. Supposed to issue a T four A slip, correct? Correct. But many companies don't do that either. No. No. From what I understand, I'm far from a tax guy, but somebody told me that a T four A slip takes away many of the possible deductions of being self. Because you are truly not self-employed. You are a personal service business or something
it's called Yep. Psb. Yep. Personal service Business psb. Yeah. Well, you can even use T four ASS for owner operators as well. Oh, can you? So, yes, because the, the bonus part is, uh, with a T four A, it gives you the amount of, of, uh, money that you generated or revenue. Were paid during that term. Whereas like with an owner operator, you have a statement that you pay them.
Uh, they don't issue an invoice or anything along that line, so it makes it a lot easier to be able to just issue a T four A to say, Hey, your, your annual revenue that you were paid was X. Here's your gross. No deductions or anything like that. Just shows the gross. And then that way that gets filed with CRA from the employer's side. And then if you're an owner operator, you would be able to. Proof of your deductions and uh, you know, benefits that you would be able to, to coop from there.
Uh, and then the same thing with a driver ink driver, but they would know, Oh, hang on, you're not really a true owner operator cuz you're not deducting any truck fuel insurance, anything like that. So, Oh, you're just a driver and no, you go into a different
class. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. You know, there was one, you just reminded me when you said no invoices. There was one company I used to work for many years ago that had a lot of owner operators and the first week of January they printed out 26 invoices for each owner operator, all dated for the first and the 15th of each month. And Wow. That's the owner operators had to complete that invoice and turn it in in order to get paid. Oh wow.
Yeah. Geez. But they, they had like 20 or something, but um, every, that's how they got paid. They had to complete the invoice. So they were trying to demonstrate and remind the owner operators. Of course, it is a business to business relationship. Yes, it is. You invoice, most companies don't do that. I know, right? Correct. Correct. Yep. Anything else about driver?
You know what, I guess, I guess the thing is if you're a driver, Inc. Uh, and I've been in this industry 40 years, so I know driver ink from back in my trucking days as well, and I see it today. And, and all I can tell you is if you are a driver ink driver, you are missing out on way more benefits than you ever could. You know, um, over time is another one we didn't really touch on, which should be in there.
But nonetheless, there you really need to do your research and understand that you're being screwed over by your employer. And especially if your employer is telling you you have to be driver ink, you're working for the wrong employer. If you're a driver who says, No, I wanna be Driver Inc. Then you obviously don't know the, uh, the benefits of being an employed. Yeah, it's, I mean, we know it's a touchy subject.
Um, many, many of our listeners perhaps will be saying and yelling at us saying, We don't know what we're talking about. leave us a comment. Exactly. Feel free to rant.
Yep. Tell us. We don't know what the hell we're talking about because. You have a valid opinion, of course. Mm-hmm. and you know, you are entitled to your opinion. And this is Canada. You are entitled, thankfully, for um, you can do what the heck you want. Yeah. And as I display my poppy, it's remember and stay a lot of people. Yep. Um, sacrificed. Yes. So that you. Leave us a comment and tell us exactly, exactly what is on your mind. So, uh, for the sacrifices of others, I thank them.
Uh, I think it's a hell of a country we live in. Hell of a good country. We live Ham Street. All right, Johnny, anything else for this week as
we wrap? No, I think, I think we beat that horse to death again, So, yeah, so it's an ongoing topic and, uh, you know, I, I'd like to see it go away and be better managed, so we need everybody's support, make that happen. I
just gotta say that, that, uh, last comment about beating a horse to death. No animals were harmed in the of this episode.
not today. Anyway,
All right everybody, thank you so much for tuning in. It's John Farwell of some Risk Solutions of myself, Chris Harris of Safety Dog. Tune in next week where we will have another episode coming out for you and we appreciate. You tuning into the Trucking Risk and Insurance Podcast. See y'all next week. Take care.