Triple Play: Death Stranding 2

A few years ago, I would have opened this episode with a joke about how Death Stranding is a weird name for a video game. How far I've come that I now think it makes sense. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week we're talking about Death Stranding 2, the big new PS5 exclusive follow-up to one of the most interesting AAA games in recent memory, and certainly a landmark event for fans of talking puppets.

I'm Kirk Hamilton. I'm Maddie Myers. And I'm Jason Schreier. Hello. Hello. Hello. It's so nice to see you both. Hello, my friends. Here we are. We're back. I just got back from vacation in Hilton Head, where I went last week, which was lovely, very hot and gorgeous. And my kids had a great time.

You guys don't hear something funny? So every morning in the hotel, when my wife and I wanted to sleep an extra hour, we would let the kids watch TV. So I set them up with a hotel TV, and I put on Nickelodeon.

it had paw patrol and for my kids and i realized this while i was doing this this was their first time ever watching live tv and they had to sit through commercials and every time a commercial would come on i would just hear screaming from their room them just being like what the hell is going on and my wife and i talked about it it turns out it's very difficult to actually explain to a kid what the difference is between live tv and like what they watch at home on netflix or whatever

Disney+. It's a very difficult concept for them to understand. They're just like, why can't I just watch the show? It's a cartoon. Why can't I just watch it when I want? Do they understand commercials? How often are they seeing commercials at this point? Probably almost never. Well, that's the point. This is the first time they've ever seen polar shows. Yeah, but I mean, not just the concept of live TV, but like...

ads being interrupted. When else would you see an ad? Yeah, exactly. I mean, probably like using apps or something. Oh, maybe. No, this is their only screen time. Wow. Do you remember those buttons that they would have during Saturday morning cartoons? after these messages we'll be right back and they would play those those I believe were mandated because they had to tell the kids the show is ending and what you are about to see is commercials because

Yeah, because kids can't really tell. And a lot of kids' commercials, especially back in the 90s, just looked like cartoons. They just looked like TV shows. So a kid just wouldn't really be able to tell the difference. So that was the idea there, was it would identify the dividing line.

So the other funny part of this story is that, yes, I also remember back in the day when we were all growing up and watching Nickelodeon Cartoon Network, all the commercials were for toys and stuff. Here, for some reason, the commercials are like medication and like...

There was one for like walking sticks, like walking canes that I watched with them. There were some for like diabetes medication was one of them. Tells you about the likely patrons of this hotel. For the grandparent who's taking care of the children. there's one for insect repellent and yeah I mean I guess Nickelodeon is having trouble selling relevant ads these days Google and Facebook took them all

Yeah, I just remember like the toy commercials in the very limited television I was permitted to watch. And my parents explaining to me like, you know, the toy doesn't come with all of that. That was a huge conversation we had in my household.

was not trusting the commercial. But Jason, you got out of all of that. You didn't have to explain any of that to your kids because it's for diabetes medication. And you know what's nice? It's nice that we don't have to have commercials on our show at all. Great seg. Love it. Perfect.

You've been setting up this segue for the last five minutes or something. And we don't have to have any commercials on TripleClick because we are totally listeners supported by so many of you who are wonderful members of our network, Maximum Fun. Thank you so much to everyone. who supports this show and yeah, makes it so that we just run promos for other MaxFun shows, but no sponsors, no paid advertisements or anything like that. And if you would like to support our show, go to MaximumFun.org.

slash join and become a member. Support our network and support TripleClick so we can keep on making this thing. And one last thing, we have announced it every episode, but we are really coming up on our live show in Portland. We've sold a bunch of tickets. It's very exciting.

We're closing in on the day. It's going to be really cool. It is on Friday, July 11th at the Alberta Rose Theater in my hometown of Portland, Oregon. It's going to be a real... extravaganza i think everyone who is there is going to have a great time we're going to have some merch we're going to have some uh freebies for people for for various uh that they can get in various ways we're going to have some songs it's going to be a whole big

show. So Friday, July 11th, Alberta Rose Theater. Buy your tickets. There's a link in the show notes. Okay, it is time to talk about a video game.

Yay. Not just any video game, a new Hideo Kojima game, which is not something that happens so often. So I have written an introduction for our discussion of Death Stranding 2. Here we go. Death Stranding 2, Strand Harder, tells the story of Sam Strander, a man gifted with the strongest lower back of any human being ever. And hang on. This was a joke one that I wrote. It's pretty good and pretty accurate so far. Yeah, I realize.

the joke was a little too close to the truth. Here's the true intro to this game. Death Stranding 2 On the Beach is a follow-up to 2019's Death Stranding. And it's one of those video game sequels we don't actually get that often. A follow-up to a genuinely novel first entry. that benefits from being the second one of those by refining and elaborating upon its predecessors' many new ideas.

Once again, we play as Sam Porter Bridges, intrepid post-apocalyptic deliveryman, played mostly in a series of expressive grunts by Walking Dead actor Norman Reedus. We control Sam as he moves across a series of evocative wastelands to deliver packages and...

network connectivity to a handful of scattered survivors once again we're in a world decimated by a mysterious supernatural event called the death stranding a cataclysm in which the world of the dead collided with the world of the living killing most of those

caught in the blast and once again we're learning about beaches and bts and dooms and bridge babies and the uca and a lot of other terms like that though this time a lot of those terms are more familiar and it is all helpfully indexed by a useful in-game

Once again, this story was written and directed by Hideo Kojima, arguably at the peak of his ability to realize his distinct creative visions. The story begins thusly after a year off the grid caring for Lou, the bridge baby he carried as he reconnected America. In the first game, Sam gets a visit from his old friend Fragile, played by Lea Seydoux, which sets in motion a journey that will take him to Mexico and beyond.

The bulk of the game is still a combination of logistics and third-person traversal. Sam prepares to carry large shipments across swamps, jungles, beaches, and mountains, with journeys broken up by tense stealth sequences, avoiding dangerous ghostly sentries or exciting fights. Thank you.

a bit more polished and user-friendly, and with a particular improvement made to the Metal Gear-style stealth action sequences where Sam takes on humanoid enemies. All three of us have been playing early review copies of the game, provided by Sony, and I should note that the game's servers just went up a

day before we recorded this. So none of us have had that much time with the online version of the game, though I played a chunk of it yesterday. It appears to function similarly to the first game. There is a lot to talk about. One last thing is we are going to spoil the events of the first game. That is likely that we'll mention

and things that happened at the end of the first game. If you're concerned about that, we're going to go pretty light on the spoilers for the second game. I think partly because all three of us haven't gotten all that far. I've played a couple dozen hours, but I also just won't share a ton of like...

story information. But if you want to play the game blind, which is actually a cool way to play it, just maybe come back to this episode later. Okay, that's a lot. There's a lot in this game. Let's talk about it. Matty, how about you go first? What do you think of Death Stranding 2 and how much of it have you played?

I have played a little over 10 hours and so much has already happened story-wise in the way that I remember happening in Death Stranding 1. And that was something I liked about Death Stranding 1. I don't mind. a really cutscene-heavy game. We should note this is a very cutscene-heavy game as well. They both are. Loves a cutscene, Kojima. Kojima Productions developers also love a cutscene. It's not just the one guy. I feel like I always want to add

that in just so many people work on this game who aren't just him, but he gets, he gets the accolades. I'm enjoying it. do feel like it's more streamlined than the first one in a few key ways. It is... There's more combat mechanics in this one so far, and it's a little easier to engage in combat, I would say. You can do stealth the way Kirk mentioned, but I don't...

really do that in this game. I've been getting in the mix with bandits and just fighting them, and I've found it easier. There are more kinds of weapons you can use. I think that's also just part of the story is that...

the weaponry has become more streamlined. So there's this aspect of the supernatural world that's established in Death Stranding 1 whereby Norman Reedus' character has kind of these supernatural properties that means so that whenever he dies, he comes back to life. But it also means that his...

These bodily fluids have special powers that allow him to defeat the ghosts that they're fighting, which they call BTs in this game. But I call them ghosts. It's a little easier for me to understand them that way. And that means that... he can throw pee grenades like when I say bodily fluids I mean literally like they're from in Death Stranding 1 you're throwing like blood and pee at these ghosts to defeat them and in this game the characters around Sam have like

automated that process in some way. So they have, what's the word? Like they're creating versions of blood. Synthetic is the word I'm looking for. Like synthetic blood and pee. And like just that, I think kind of sums up some of the ways that this game... It's almost like the people in the world itself have streamlined the process of...

fighting the ghosts that live around them all the time, and dealing with the sort of weird ghost internet that they use to communicate with one another. All of that is kind of level two in this game. Everyone's familiar with how it works, whereas in the first one, people were... questioning it a lot i think that's really interesting as a premise is like things are more normalized i think also to give a specific like uh gameplay reflection of that streamlining i've played through the first

10 or 15 hours of Death Stranding 1, I think three times on three different systems. So I've become very familiar with the way that game introduces new ideas. And in that game, first you do get these like pea grenades that don't really do anything. And then eventually it kind of takes a long time until...

you get these blood grenades that can finally kill a BT and then the game really seems to open up because suddenly you have an offensive possibility in the sequel you very quickly get blood grenades like on the second mission and then they also give you guns Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

everything is just given to you faster and the whole onboarding is way more streamlined. So anyways, just to give a sort of specific example of like the difference there between the games. Jason, I'd love to hear from you. How much have you played and what do you think into the game?

So I'm like a few missions into Australia. So I guess chapter three, a few hours into the game. You sound so excited. You sound like you're really getting ready to just like share your excitement. I don't know. I'm trying to decide what I think of it. I don't really know what I think of it. I don't really know how to comprehend this game or engage with this game.

To give a little context, you bounced off the first game extremely quickly and never returned to it, right? Right. Yeah, I bounced off the first game in part because you had to sue the crying baby while I had a crying baby. the other room while playing it which was a little bit like that game came out what was it september or october of 2019 like literally weeks after my um oldest daughter was born um and then yeah i've played a lot more of this one and it definitely feels more welcoming

In the first game, from what I understand, it took forever for you to be able to get these vehicles that let you traverse the world more quickly. And here you get your first vehicle very soon, like before you even leave the tutorial. area um the first continent or the first country in the game um but yeah i i just still don't know exactly how i feel about it like i i can i guess see why people enjoy it i don't know if i'm quite

there yet. I... I have not really been able to find enough reason to convince myself to really get down and dirty with all of its menus and layers and systems and try to understand why I need to carefully craft my loadout. so I can go and get through the area, like traverse Australia when I could just kind of like throw a ladder down and make my way and take a car and make my way with it. And then also I am really not...

gripped enough by the story to feel like I have to get into the gameplay so I can see what's going to happen next. The story to me is just kind of like a mess of proper nouns. like nonsense um so i don't know i mean i'm not like super into it i'm also not like actively hating every minute of playing it i i just don't really know i'm kind of like ambivalent about The game.

This is a step up from Death Stranding 1, though. Like, I feel like we should know this. That one I didn't really take the time to engage with. This one I've spent a lot more time trying to get into it. I think that talking it through and hearing what you guys enjoy about... it might help me kind of figure out how I feel about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Let me talk a little bit. I have an interesting relationship with this series. It's not dissimilar from yours, I think, Maddie, based on my memory of you kind of coming back to Death Stranding 1 a little later. And completing it. Yeah. Right.

I actually never completed Death Stranding 1, though I've played probably like 80 hours total across three different playthroughs. And one of those playthroughs I got very, very far. I was like across the Rockies, had met Hartman and finished all of that and basically got... to where I started building ziplines and then got distracted building ziplines for like 10 hours. Valid. Ziplines are really fun. And then didn't finish. But at the same time, like...

It was that playthrough, I believe that was the director's cut replaying on PS5, where the game finally, like, it didn't unlock for me so much as I wormed my way into its many frictional points and then became comfortable and figured out.

what it was that I found appealing about it. And I think that's a thing about this game that I really like is that it's incredibly frictional. It's so full of different frictions. It never just... streamlines things to make them easy it's not really interested in onboarding you even the sequel that does a better job of onboarding in the first game it still is a really kind of off-putting and friction-filled experience compared to something like uncharted

or like a game where it's just immediately like, okay, press A to have fun and then everything feels great and it's just awesome. And it's just this totally seamless, exciting, explosive cinematic experience. This game is very not that. You mentioned that it's very cinematic.

cinematic-heavy Maddie, which there are a lot of cinematics, but at the same time, there's a lot of just unadulterated gameplay in this game, like the first game. It's kind of, to me, I see it more that... there are it is it is still doing the thing where

the story is told in cutscenes that are completely separate from the game, which was true for Metal Gear games as well, where you'd have a cutscene where Solid Snake would do all this acrobatic cool stuff, and then you'd be back in the game where his actual control scheme is very specific and weird.

and you can only move in very certain ways and you never feel empowered and acrobatic. It still has that kind of separation. But most of the game is just this experience of walking across these gorgeously rendered landscapes and just...

kind of slowly making your way from point A to point B, and then gradually getting better and better at doing that. And for me, at least, a big thing that unlocked the first game was reaching that kind of third, it's almost like the third act of the game where you're finally in the big open American landscape and you start building roads, which is one really major part of this game.

that just doesn't unlock for a long time in the first game, and really for kind of a while in the second. And then, like I said, building zip lines as well. So once you're building travel infrastructure, you're building roads, you really have to get a lot of material.

to do that so then you're kind of going out and figuring out how to carry a ton of metal and ceramics to get to each of the road builder points to build more of the road but then the more you build it you have a car and you can like drive up and down the road it makes it super easy to get around and then you're building more and more road and you kind of get into this

really almost meditative, logistical, just road building mode. And then the zip lines are the same, except the zip lines you can place wherever you want. And you wind up like you're crossing the Rocky Mountains in the first game, or here in Australia in the second one, it's similar there. mountains and you're like placing these zipline posts they look kind of like

compressed field goal brackets, I guess is how I would describe them. And they're very visible from a distance. And you need to connect one to the next to the next. And each one just needs a line of sight. So once you're essentially lining up the...

the flames of uh gondor from the lord of the ranks or at least that's how it's always felt thank you right and it has that feeling where you're at the top of this mountain and you're looking and you've arranged this beacon network where you drop another you know, another zipline post. And then you climb up into it and just launch yourself around the map. And suddenly you're able to get to all these really hard to reach places. And it just becomes this very satisfying feeling of...

building and mastering this map that was previously so difficult to traverse. What you're describing sounds nothing like the video game that I have been playing for the last few hours. Yeah, it becomes that over time. Right, it becomes that.

I mean, the thing that I like about the game, ironically, is the cutscenes. I'm fascinated by how weird the world is. And for me, I don't... love all of the other stuff kirk just said i'm okay with it and i also have to kind of worm my way into the friction of it and kind of get into a mindset where i can get through it that's just my personal preference.

Though I just find it somewhat tedious, but I think it's also tedious by design and that it's like, it's difficult to navigate this world. And even when you get further and you get zip lines and you get the ability to build a road, build. a bridge, build a better road, build a better bridge. It never feels like

Sim City or whatever. It never feels like a true building game where the point is that building is satisfying and you are like this omnipotent being that is building the world in your image. You're always struggling. You're always...

having to collect the things that you need to build something. And it stays hard the whole time, but that's part of it. And I kind of did that in... bite of disliking it because I wanted to know what happened and if you don't want to know what happens and you don't like that stuff you need to like one or the others I guess what I'm saying and the two halves are not similar like there's the experience of like watching a Kojima cut

scene that is unique and you either like that or you don't and I happen to like it and then there's this other thing that Death Stranding is which is the walking simulator stuff. The walking and crafting simulator of

building a world that is sort of navigable. And also on top of that, there's the piece that I also played just a little bit of the online version of the game today just to get a sense of it. And it's so much more fun online, which is the version that our listeners will be playing, not the review version.

that was offline, which is lonely. Like, I'm hiking through the worlds of Sam and the review pre-release period just fully lonely. But now there's signs everywhere. There's other porters in the world who, like, build something that I... can interact with and like click the like button on and I really like all of those mechanics too and so there's almost like multiple ways of experiencing the game because of that

Yeah, I mean, it's all contained within the one game because a big part of the experience is you're connecting everyone to the chiral network, which is like the ghost network that they use to send data and then use to build structures. So when you're...

heading to a new location to connect them to the network you're offline and everything is you know very stark and you're making your way across this beautiful landscape and it's just you it's just sam and like his destination you just have to figure it out yeah right and And I do think, you know, it is interesting. I agree that the story and the gameplay are very separate in a certain way. Though...

I think the story really, it's kind of a vibes based story. Like there are specific terms. There's a lot of specificity to the world. But at the same time, there are concepts like the beach and bridge babies and loo and different things that are just never fully explained.

and weren't explained in the first game, and I just elude... description or explanation and so you kind of have to get with the fact that yes you know what dooms is yes you know what a beach is but also hartman is experimenting with beaches and turning out beaches in ways that i didn't know were possible and the Then there's the tar, which is like a whole concept that's explored in this game. That's like this...

you know, tar that flows under the surface of the earth that they use to navigate. I mean, your base ship like is a submarine that goes through the tar and it's like, OK, I guess this is a new thing I need to learn. But you really are just kind of going on these vibes. It's the feeling of Sam.

Wanting to have a family and wanting to be connected and then losing that and trying to find it again. And so there's a lot of just abstract loneliness in this game. And then when you're walking through the world...

especially during these key moments where a beautiful song will start playing. A lot of the music in this game is by the artist Woodkid, who wrote music for the first game too, and writes this beautiful... like ethereal pop music and um sam will be walking and the camera pulls out and he's walking along this mountain ridge and then this song starts playing and

It's really beautiful and it does feel to me connected to the story. Like it makes me think about just where I am and the kind of abstract feelings that I'm having that does kind of tie it all together, at least for me. Minus 61. Now the water level rises high in my cold paradise Where men sit in circles and talk numbers I never really liked The way they think of life as some kind of gamble And watch the city drown Where is it that I belong?

So, okay, I want to make a Metal Gear Solid comparison because I think that might help me articulate my thoughts about this game. I really loved Metal Gear Solid V. I love all those games, but especially Metal Gear Solid V, despite the fact that it was completely...

unfinished and like you had to watch the the last like finale final scene is like an unfinished like campaign mission on youtube but um putting that aside i really love that game um and that game shares a lot with this game obviously it's kojima it's a lot of same kind of principal people um but i think it's a lot more grounded and it feels a lot more kind of there's a lot more for me to just kind of grasp onto both in the gameplay and the story um but especially in the story and the story

of these Metal Gear games, there's a lot of nonsense, like nanomachines and clones and all sorts of, again, proper nouns, just like Death Stranding, but you can really connect with at least some of the characters and their motivations. motivations make sense. The basic world makes sense. There's a lot of highfalutin sci-fi stuff, but it all kind of, it fits within a set of rules that are very easy to understand and grasp.

Yeah, but also it's even the parts that aren't recognizably our world have set rules that you can understand. And I always appreciate rules in a fantasy or a sci-fi story. And I really hate it when a fantasy... or sci-fi story just will suddenly introduce these new concepts that just like totally break everything and and you're just like oh okay now they can transport under the ground into tar or whatever and I think that Death Stranding really pushes into poetry and vibes

in a way that I just have no interest or can't really find myself grabbing onto. And with the gameplay, it's similar. Like, Metal Gear Solid V especially is so good at, like, crafting this gameplay where you can, like, take on these bases in all sorts of ways and you can... switch between stealth and action and it all feels very um it's very smooth and very it can be complicated there's a lot of complicated mechanics but it's also um

not super hard to get your mind around and understand why something is happening in death stranding i found that over and over again i keep running into bases and like i'll get caught by an enemy and not even know why or like i'll i'll scout out a base with my doll dude and try to figure out how I can take it down and then something stupid happens and I just won't actually be able to and we'll just have to gun them down again it just feels so abstract and so just kind of like hard for me to

connect to in a way that even the music i mean the music you just described like some of the music in here wood kid and churches and like um what's her name who sings the main thing a lot of that is the synth pop that i really cannot get into whereas in metal gear solid 5

There's a ton of, like, 80s pop music that is fantastic and still gets stuck in my head sometimes. In fact, I was walking through Death Stranding and this song started playing and I was like, this kind of, I kind of wish this was that, like, this sounds like echoes of that Donna Brazile.

Zill song in the Metal Gear Solid V trailer and I was just thinking about how awesome that song was and how awesome some of the music was in Metal Gear Solid V so for me this all just feels like kind of inferior versions of the previous Kojima That I really loved. Well let me look at just the gameplay. thing that you're talking about there because the combat and base infiltration in Death Stranding 2 is not close to the combat and base infiltration in Metal Gear Solid V but I wouldn't say that

That wouldn't be the comparison that I would make because I don't think that Death Stranding 2 is primarily a combat-based infiltration game where that's Metal Gear 5's whole thing. Death Stranding 2 is... primarily a game about traversal and logistics. And in that, I think it's

just as well designed and fleshed out. And, you know, it's, I think, really well made, especially the sequel, because they've refined so many things just in the interface, you know, little things. You can access your cargo and optimize it much more quickly. You can get through.

the menus a lot faster it gives you all these nice options for moving around and that i think is really well designed it's something that takes a long time to just get your head around or at least it took me a long time well it sounds like it takes a long time to even

get to the fun parts from what you're describing with the ziplines no i don't agree with that because i play i had plenty of fun from the start because i already knew how to play it it's more that it took me a long time to get my head around it because it just isn't a game i've played before this it's not You know, Metal Gear is a very familiar style of game. And in fact, Metal Gear 5...

feels much more like other games that were inspired by the earlier Metal Gear games. The control scheme is much closer to a splinter cell or something, where it's like third-person controls. Kojima and his designers basically acquiesced to the fact that there was a standard.

third-person control scheme, where in Metal Gear 4 and Metal Gear 3, it's a much stranger and more particular control scheme. So it's just a much more familiar thing to sneak into a base and to use a sniper rifle and to call in your air support and grab a rocket launcher and blow up a tank.

Those are all things that I know how to do because I've done them in tons of games. Planning out how to carry a really heavy backpack across a mountain is just a different thing and it requires this kind of literacy in the game. Just in its menus and even its animations and the ways that it works. And because I've played so much of the first game, coming into the second game, I felt much more fluent in that. And as a result, I find it really satisfying and engrossing.

Yeah, and the story also, to kind of speak to that part of it, I actually think it is more grounded this time than last time. In a few key ways, it's simpler. So, like, I also just re-watched a bunch of the Death Stranding 1 cutscenes before playing this just because I had the free time for some reason. I can't imagine why. And I just wanted to see... you know remind myself like what were the key things that happened and I just liked it also that game

They sure explain a lot in that game. The characters will all but face the camera and be like, here's how the world works. And it is... tiring there's less of that in this game and almost from the start it's really focused on the character's emotions about

things that are happening to them that even though there are ghosts involved, they're pretty easy to understand. Like, without spoiling anything, this is a game about... grief and Sam is lonely for a reason and fragile is sad and the two of them are sad and like you get why and it's really obvious and it's like not difficult to understand their character motivations from that key perspective.

Whereas in Death Stranding 1, there were a lot of times where I was like, I don't really know why this person's even here or what their deal is. And like, I completed the game and still I'm like, I'm not really sure what that part was. And this game... just has I mean I'm again I'm only 10 hours in that could change but I do feel like

Some of this feels like the developers took some notes in a sense and were like, let's make this more accessible. That doesn't mean that this game is... that accessible though it's still a Death Stranding game but I do think it's easier to get and to get on board with in a way that the first one wasn't however it is still

a game where you're packing a backpack and walking for a really long time. And like, you kind of have to be on board with that. And you have to be on board with the vibes and the poetry, like you said, Jason. Because otherwise, there's not anything for you. And it's not going to be like a Metal Gear where it's like, those are really explicitly based on 80s action movies. And some of that is like...

and some of it is imitative, but it's like, it's a really specific genre of thing that you can look to and be like, this is what this is based on. I don't even know that I can draw from that for Death Stranding other than like... horror movies and games, even though I wouldn't describe Death Stranding games as horror, but like those are the influences.

that it's pulling from, except that instead of being a horror genre game, it is a logistics and sim game, which is bizarre. So it is kind of one of a kind in that way.

Yeah, it also just has its own iconography and art. identity so yoji shinakawa is the art director of this game and he has been like the character designer for metal gear forever he's definitely one of those names along with hideo kojima that who has been responsible for like this whole oeuvre of games and it's so

visually striking i'm sure there are films and filmmakers that it's you know evoking but it's its own thing i mean at this point the way that the land the way that the mountains and the light the sky in this game all look is and it is like a it's a real visual showcase and that like

I don't know, the visual aesthetic of this game is very much its own thing in a way that I never felt any Metal Gear game had its own thing. Even though the character designs, you know, the ways that the technology looked and worked, the lights, the way a Metal Gear mech looked.

like that is all you know that's also shinkawa and that is all iconic but like those games also do look like an 80s movie like you said maddie where death stranding looks like death stranding and i almost wouldn't be surprised to see you know, movies and other visual media channeling Death Stranding because it's so distinct looking. To speak to the story, stuff that you were talking about since I've played quite a bit more.

I agree. And I think they definitely took notes on the narrative structure in particular, because something in the first game that was a little challenging was that you met everyone at the very beginning in whatever it is, Edge Not City or wherever that is that you start. And there's a lot of people. Right off the bat, there's Hartman, the guy who looks like Guillermo del Toro. Die Hard Man. Dead Man.

Or I'm sorry, I said Heartman, but Deadman is actually Guillermo del Toro. Heartman you mean a little later. But yeah, Deadman, Die Hardman, they all have these funny names. Is this actually a Mega Man game? Right. And then you meet, but you also meet Bridget, who is the president of the United States and also Sam's adoptive mother. And then she dies. But then also there's like a version of Bridget in the...

Beach, who's talking to you, the woman in the red dress, who is actually Amelie, who you're trying to rescue. And then Amelie, of course, turns out to not even be Amelie or she kind of is Amelie, but she's also like secretly the big bad. And there's all this. It's like very convoluted and complicated.

throw it all at you at once i think you meet like higgs really early too like really every that's like the antagonist yeah well that's like at the end of the first act but they throw it all at you at once but the thing about all of those good guys leaving higgs aside yeah is that you meet them all and then you you

the road and then like die hardman is on the radio with you a lot and then sometimes you'll get to a base and they use the chiral network so that you can have these hologram conversations with people but it feels like you've kind of left them behind and so the story just feels kind of diffuse A really cool thing that this game does, Death Stranding 2, is that you start out kind of alone and then you join Fragile's...

team drawbridge her new like contracting delivery organization on board of the Magellan which is her ship and then the ship follows you from place to place and as you gather new characters which you do throughout the story

They join the crew. Classic video game structure for a reason. Right. You're in this ship and you're starting to have more and more elaborate conversations with new characters. The new characters are mysterious. They open new narrative possibilities. You're kind of building a little family that follows you around.

There's Tar Man, there's Doll Man. Mm-hmm. Yes, there's Tar Man, who, of course, is George Miller, or George Miller's face. But not, also not George Miller. That is such an unusual way that the game is to, like, have... Yeah, it does it a lot.

Did Jima scan the faces of... semi-famous people but then they're not played by that person it just makes everything a little uncanny but it still feels like you're kind of talking to George Miller which is cool and he gets to have his idols in the game I don't know I sort of enjoy it it's weird it's weird uncanny though

The doll man who looks like a wooden Chucky-style doll, for some reason his frame rate is different than everybody else's. So strange. I love it. He's animated like a stop-motion doll in Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. Yeah, it's like a stop motion every time you see it. Intentionally uncanny, I would say. That's one of the best gags in the game. Oh, I love Dollman. And I think I had maybe seen a clip of Dollman in one of those, you know, SGF trailers or something, but I had forgotten about it.

and when they introduced him I was just like laughing for like five minutes and then he becomes a major character and he's like your sidekick he's like what's his name the severed head and god of war you're carrying him around and he's talking yeah good comparison he is

kind of liked that yeah yeah Mimir yeah not quite as charming as Mimir but yeah oh I don't know I'm quite charmed by Dollman but I've played a lot more than you I really like Dollman actually he's pretty great you can just talk to him in your room anyhow yeah

Building that little family works much better narratively. And I do agree, Maddie. I find it much more emotionally straightforward, even though it's still really complicated and weird. Like the circumstances are complex, but the emotional core of it. is very simple. And that helps a lot, I think, in a way that in Death Stranding 1, the emotional core of it still also was confusing to me. I am incredibly confused by the emotional core because of a thing that it's hard for me to really get into.

2 without spoiling the first kind of plot point of the game. I mean, can we put a spoiler warning here and then I can maybe talk about this a little bit for the last couple of minutes? Bing! Okay, so that's what we decided to do. We spoiled the thing Jason is talking about, which takes place at the end of the prologue, maybe three or four hours in. And we also just talk about some more specifics related to the story after that prologue when you get into Australia.

and you begin the kind of main part of the game, we get into just a couple more story elements. So we talk a little more openly about the story after that point. If you don't want to hear that, skip ahead to the timestamp. 47 minutes, 30 seconds. That's 47 minutes, 30 seconds. Okay, back to what Jason was going to say. And don't worry, he'll give you a little bit more buffer if you're still scrambling to get to that skip ahead button.

So the thing I'm having a hard time... Well, okay, so warning here, don't listen further unless you want the first kind of major... It's like the first act, end of the first act spoilers. Yeah, well, it's not even as far... End of the prologue spoilers, essentially. I wouldn't have wanted to know.

But yeah, you don't want to know this until you've played the game. So here's your chance. So the first kind of major event that happens after you're done in Mexico is you get back to your base. And I mean, first and foremost, some of the dialogue there.

when Sam Bridges is going into the base and he's like, I wonder where they could be after getting messages saying that they're gun people outside. He is so nonchalant in his dialogue reading despite the fact that the entire base has been destroyed. Anyway, point being...

find Lou your daughter who's a toddler and she is appears to be dead and that's tragic and that made me understand okay like now his motive is like getting over the grief maybe revenge whatever it is trying to figure out what happened there and then

Then Lou appears in your baby belt and then suddenly she's in your baby belt for like whoever knows how long. And I was talking to Kirk about this earlier. He said it's not clear what the deal is. Maybe it's a hallucination. Who knows what? But the fact that you were still having to soothe.

Lou and having Lou there is like throwing me so off kilter then I just like I just don't understand what's going on here at all I take it as a hallucination but Kurt go ahead yeah oh having not finished the game but played it

pretty big chunk of it i mean it is still not clear to me what's going on but yeah it's implied that there i mean there is ambiguity around it because we're seeing things from sam's perspective but there are multiple times at which characters particularly haggs who turns up to torment sam pretty soon after where you are is alluding to the fact that like dude

what is wrong with you? You're just walking around with a coffin attached to your chest. Like, why are you holding on to this? And I think the whole idea is that Sam is holding on to Lou because he can't bear having lost her, even though Lou is a very mysterious and sort of... supernatural being and we don't even really know where Lou came from right like

As the player, I am hoping she's somehow alive. So, like, it's easy for me to put myself in Sam's shoes. But also there's a line pretty early on between Dollman and Fragile where I think Dollman is like... that is an empty pod. What is he talking about? And Fragile shushes him. And that was when I was like...

Oh, like something's really off here. And Sam's hallucinating. Okay. I haven't seen any of this stuff yet. Okay. That would help me like follow it a little along. And that's all fairly early and seems to be setting up like the review. I think by the end of it.

game we will have a very strong sense of the whole emotional journey that sam went on and like what actually happened and what he's doing and for now it's it's partly a way for them to just keep the gameplay the same as the first game like yeah right

Which I never do. For what it's worth, the baby's soothing. I've never soothed the baby. Sometimes the baby cries if I fall down and then it just stops crying and it's fine. So it's not like that's a major mechanic in the game. You can just ignore her? Yeah, it's going to be...

okay and jason i get that for you it is like you must soothe the baby and it's probably well i was so annoyed i that really annoyed me because i was like okay i can go this the i i don't have to soothe the baby anymore i don't have to hear a baby crying i've had enough of that

life and then somebody's back i'm like oh no not again now the baby's freaking back um but the other thing i mean i don't know it's again this is just me kind of failing to connect with this story in a way that it sounds like you two have but i also don't really

buy that it's just like that he's just like okay to get over my grief i am going to go and connect australia because that is what i do no it makes it does not make sense like it's a totally huge separate fragile also offers to wipe his slate clean but just

The way that it's presented is pretty rushed. Like, I completely agree with you. So for me, it's like, and I was really, I was actually really enjoying the story in the first part of the game. And I was especially impressed by the way that like, Sam, the cinematics of him interacting with the...

baby and like the way Fragile interacted with the baby I thought it was so cool and I was really hoping the story would go in a different direction not really a huge fan of seeing a dead toddler in my games but then after that it really after you meet up with all these people and the story just starts getting pulled and suddenly you have this anonymous

benefactor who may or may not be the president or maybe he speaks for the president or maybe he's supposed to be someone else entirely and then the president appears and it's like is this the president no it's the new president actually it's not the president i was just like i am so lost here we'll see die hard

was president of the uca but this president is president of a corporation i was i was willing to put up with the stuff about beaches and ca and i was like okay like i i can i can roll with this a little bit even that ridiculous like sequence where um what's his name dead man is like talking about my ha and my car together at the beach now and i was just like what what is going on here that was nice when dead man finally gets again willing willing to put up with that but by the

The time I got to Australia. It's like one of my favorite scenes so far. Anyway, Jason, keep going. Got to Australia and was just overloaded with the proper nouns. And I was just like, this is not for me. I'll agree with you on one piece of this, which is that there isn't an.

inherent tension in the game that Sam as a character keeps pointing out. And I do think it's going to be an issue, which is Sam continuing to be like, why are we doing this? Like Sam, the hero keeps trying to refuse the call and the game. won't let him. You need to just keep connecting different parts of the world. And Sam keeps questioning it and being like, isn't this colonialism? Isn't this just the UCA extending its borders to Mexico?

and Australia and all these other countries. Like, aren't I acting as some sort of weird colonizer by going to these places and just bringing the ghost internet there? And all the other characters are like, no, no, Sam, it's a private corporation that you're doing this on behalf.

And I, the player, am like, why is that better? I don't trust a private corporation more than the invented version of the U.S. government in this game. And Sam also doesn't and says that in so many words and is like, I don't really trust. any of this, but then the conclusion of the scene with the president that you just referred to, Jason, is that Sam is just kind of like...

I guess I'll do it anyway. Okay, that's the part of the motivation that I just don't understand. And Dollman is like, you know, you could go for a walk through Australia. It'll really help you get over your grief by going and connecting Australia. And I'm just like, will it? Is that really?

the extent of the motivation here. So that's the only point that I wanted to make is that I just don't understand the motivations at all, which is one of the reasons I'm failing to connect with this story. I'm sure lots of people out there will be more like you two and completely connect.

of the story no no no no i really don't want you to describe me that way plenty of people like you jason let me weigh in on this i want to be clear here i do not find any of that convincing at all like i've never really connected on that kind

of an emotional level to the story of either of these games or to the story of any Metal Gear game ever. I have never felt as though a Hideo Kojima story has made sense to me on human terms. You're saying that Big Boss never made you cry, man? No, Big Boss never made me cry. It's always this kind of ridiculous stuff. And especially in this game, that part almost made me laugh where he's like, oh, man, my kid died. Well, I guess I'm just going to go.

do the game again because we have to do a sequel. Because I'm in a video game. Yeah, it really just felt like, all right, we're going to do the game again. And then, oh, you need to have a ghost baby because there needs to be a baby because there's a baby in Death Stranding and that's how we designed the first game. And all of that stuff feels very...

kind of rushed, it could have been done much better. I do know that a lot of this game's development took place during COVID and that it was an incredibly challenging development. For all of their refinements and, you know, beautiful little extra things that they added, this game was actually...

made after COVID since the first game came out right before COVID. And Kojima has talked about how it was incredibly difficult. They were working remotely. He wasn't able to scout locations. He couldn't be on set with people. And a lot of things were very difficult to do.

I think probably some of that where they're just they have to get to the next thing and they don't do it in the most elegant way possible will be due to that. But for whatever the reason is, I do think like it's incredibly inelegant a lot of times in terms of motivation and characters.

It's again like I like the base gameplay and I just sort of enjoy whenever a cutscene comes up because it's going to be some interesting to look at thing with fun actors, some of whom are very famous and fun to watch, do mocap stuff. And then it just kind of keeps going.

going. And then at the end, I'll kind of just rinse through it all and look it over and be like, all right, so what was that about? That's kind of a fun way to experience it. But I don't want to give the impression that I'm like, I just find Sam so relatable the way Norman Reedus stares at people. and doesn't speak and grunts and doesn't seem to have any emotions except when he's on a zipline. Yeah, that's fair. No, I don't either for the record. It's more of a...

fascination, if anything, because it's so unusual to write a game or a story in this way. And it does also feel like that specific moment that we're talking about may have been subject to rewrites. I was reading this really long Wired story where they got a lot of access to Kojima, and he talked about rewriting this game.

while making it because he changed his mind over the course of COVID-19 about some things fundamentally that the first game emphasizes this idea that the Chiral Network is a boon for people and that this is... helpful and he started to question that and be like I don't know it was still really isolating like people living in these bunkers you get to actually kind of experience something like that during COVID-19 and be like this would suck and maybe I should try to emphasize that more in this

game i don't know that that succeeds per se so far i'm not really getting that but i know that's that he rewrote the game is what i'm saying and i feel that the weight of that in some of the scenes and pacing and just like somebody who is experiencing a worldwide pandemic along with everyone else and writing a game about...

what is essentially a pandemic. It's a supernatural cataclysm, but it affects everyone in the world and kills millions of people and makes it so that they can't easily contact each other anymore. So like... Having that experience happen while this game was being made is also just fascinating to me and makes it a work of art that I'm really interested in from just a critical level, even though there are parts of it that I'm like, well, this is silly. I don't...

You know what I mean? That's helping propel me for sure, is that curiosity.

In the end, it really is for me so similar to some albums in particular that I've really struggled with. I actually made an episode of Strong Songs this season about the Mars Volta's album Deloused in the Comatorium, which I always hold up as an example of an incredibly challenging...

album that i was kind of turned off by because it's really aggressive and like really all over the place there's a ton going on the first time i heard it in like the early 2000s i was like whoa this is not my thing and then i but i was like but but i'm gonna listen to it again and i kind of just stuck with

it and made myself keep listening and then over time i just kind of grew into it and it gradually became one of my favorite albums of all time i've listened to it hundreds of times and i hear something new every time and

Death Stranding is really rare for me in that it's a video game that's like that. It's that same feeling where when I played the first game, I was like, OK, this is interesting, but I don't know, man. And I kind of bounced off. Then I came back. I played a little more. And I was like, no, this is cool.

I just don't really have time. And I kept coming back and I, you know, the director's cut came out and I played it on PC and then I played it on PS5 and I finally played a whole bunch of it. And now that the sequel is out, I'm like totally conversant in it. And I just find that. experience like that I'm so it's so familiar and it's so unusual it's just not like any other game it doesn't

It just seems to have totally different goals, narratively and in terms of design. And I find that just really, really refreshing and interesting. So yeah, I'm loving it. Yeah, I'm glad it exists for that reason. Before we go and take a break...

Kirk, have you seen any of the actors that you predicted would appear? I'm trying to remember. Who did we even say? Timothee Chalamet was on there. I haven't run into him yet. Not yet. Elle Fanning is the actress that I most recently saw, and she's actually in the movie That's My One More Thing as well, which is sort of funny. Your predictions are...

Sydney Sweeney, Zendaya, Florence Pugh, Timothy Chalamet, Christopher Nolan, Daniel Craig. Those are your six predictions. Great predictions. Okay. I have not seen any of them yet. Man. There's still time. There's still time. Christopher Nolan.

that Christopher Nolan isn't in this is actually sort of surprising well not yet you never know he might be in it they've really kept the spoilers under wraps for this game so I could easily open up a bunker door and find Chris Nolan in there I feel like I wouldn't be surprised to see Tim Timothy Chalamet as well. No, he's got to be in there. He's got to be. We'll see.

All right, well, that is Death Stranding 2, a very interesting game. I'm certainly going to keep playing it, and maybe we'll talk about it a little bit more in the future on the show. For now, let's take a break, and then we will come back for one more thing.

Hello, this is Alex. Hello, this is Katie. We host Secretly Incredibly Fascinating, and this week we released our 250th episode. 250! Every episode stands on its own. And every episode is about a seemingly ordinary topic. We reveal the history and the science of stuff like salt and clouds and your computer mouse. And episode 250 is about the word hello. Hello. You know that word. You're ready to go.

us say hello to you find secretly incredibly fascinating at maximum fun.org hi is this brennan this is brennan This is Ben Harrison. I'm the host of The Greatest Generation and Greatest Trek, along with my buddy Adam on Maximum Fun. I am calling because you, Brennan, have been named Maximum Fun's Member of the Month. Oh, my God. I'm so honored to be the MaxFun member of the month. As member of the month, you'll be getting a gift card to the MaxFun store.

a special member of the month bumper sticker, and a special priority parking spot at the MaxFun headquarters in Los Angeles, California, just for you. That's a perk that I don't even get as a host of shows on the network. This all sounds fantastic. I'm going to have to figure out a way to use that parking spot. Brennan, you have to do it just to rub it in my face alone.

Have a great day and live long and prosper. I don't know how to do this. That works. I will do my best to live long and prosper. Become a MaxFun member now at MaximumFun.org slash join. And we're back for one more thing. Jason, how about you kick us off?

My one more thing is a book called Ninth House by Leigh Bardugo, who is an author that Kirk has recommended and shouted out on One More Thing in the past for her Shadow and Bone books. And really for her Crows books. Crows, yeah, the Crows. Those I like those a lot more than the Shadow and Bone trilogy. And the concept of Ninth House, which was published in 2019, is that within Yale University, there is this this these kind of secret society.

of magic practitioners and there are eight of them and then there's this ninth house called Leth and the Leth's job is to kind of monitor, be the watchdogs for the eight houses. main character um this woman named galaxy stern who goes by alex stern uh she is this kind of this

screw-up character, drug addict, had a really rough history who was brought in because she has a very unique ability in that she can see the dead and nobody else can unless they, like, take special potions to see the dead. And this book is the story... of her kind of...

joining this um society of watchdogs and what that means for her um and then it opens up as many good stories do with a murder and so there's a murder mystery plot involved um the book the the way the book is structured it kind of jumps back and forth between

the past and the present the past being her kind of introduction to the house and like her learning about it and her first kind of months there and the present being a few months in when she is trying to solve this murder history and figure out what happened there among other big

mysteries, such as the disappearance, the mysterious disappearance of her mentor slash kind of upperclassman who has been showing her the ropes. It's a really cool book. I'm really enjoying it. Not 100% finished yet, but... pretty close to the end. And the way that Leigh Bardugo tells the story and creates a universe is really, really good. Clearly, this is, I think this was published after the fantasy books that you've shared.

out in the past kirk and and you can see that she has had a lot of time to hone her craft and refine her work for this one um It's really fun. It's got good energy. It's got a really propulsive story and interesting world. It's fun to see this kind of alternate version of Yale University. The author, by the way, she went to Yale, so she clearly knows it well.

really paints this interesting picture of New Haven, the town that Yale is in. Also the town well-known for Connecticut-style pizza, New Haven-style pizza, which has not been mentioned in the book so far. Connecticut-style beats New Haven pizza.

Which I have had and is quite delicious. I have a bunch of friends who live in New Haven. Yeah, I'm actually going around there this weekend and might have some pizza. Go to Sally's, man. I'm not going to New Haven, but just kind of close by to Mohegan Sun nearby. But anyway, so.

really cool book Ninth House really enjoy it and really enjoy the characters and especially the main character who is a very kind of lovable screw up type character kind of a typical YA character in some ways but really fleshed out and badass and awesome and I'm really enjoying reading her story and apparently this is a whole series there's a sequel that has come out it's meant to be multiple books there's also a show

it's been uh in production i don't know if it's ever gonna happen but i think amazon prime picked it up so will probably be a big thing but um if it's not already a big thing but yeah really enjoying it ninth house labor do go worth checking out

Nice. I'll check it out. Yeah, that trajectory makes sense. Her Crows duology, which are, I think, Six of Crows and Crooked Kingdom, come after the Shadow and Bone trilogy, which were adapted into a Netflix show. I've talked about this. It was actually weird.

combined the duology and the trilogy into one show and the show was good for one season and then absolutely fell apart and those it's really like her she becomes a much stronger writer even over the course of the trilogy so the third book in shadow of bone is like pretty good The first book is pretty like cut it, you know, it's a pretty standard, like special girl with the magical powers and a, you know, whatever chosen one YA novel. And then the...

Crow's duology is sick you should totally read those like both of you should yeah I'm going to I wanted to even when you first talked about it but now that I now that I'm reading her other work I'm definitely going to check it out she's great and especially knowing that you love those Lies of Locke Lamora the Locke Lamora

books they have a real similar kind of seedy fantasy heist like a dark underbelly kind of a thing and yeah she kicks ass i totally want to read this that's a good reminder that she's out there writing books because i haven't read anything of hers since those crows books. Okay, Maddie, what is your One More Thing?

Okay, mine is Claire Obscure Expedition 33 because I completed the game. I watched the ending I didn't choose on YouTube. I've seen the two endings and I wanted to close the book. on it without spoiling it although with this game maybe it's more accurate to say like frame the painting on it or something like that uh sure i

I actually really liked both of the endings. And that's part of why I wanted to mention this, because I know that there are people out there who are like, I didn't really think these worked. That's fine. I can understand why somebody would think that, but they really worked for me. I think they fit the vibe of the game. I do think the game loses its way.

pacing wise like the end of act two start of act three it has kind of a moment that a lot of games have where you just have like extra stuff to do and you're like could this end i kind of feel like i see where we're going with this one and I just want to get there but for some reason there's a lot more bosses to fight before I'm going to be permitted to do that classic RPG stuff but I was really glad that I finished it because I thought the endings were really cool

I liked the one I chose, but then also the other one I thought was really neat also. And it made me think like there should be like some way that everyone can see both endings because I feel like they both.

say something about the game and what could happen. And I think it's really cool that they're like contradictory endings. Like you can really only choose one. And I just think it's neat that the game writers did that and made a decision and were like, these are gonna be opposite endings if you know what I mean like they they could not coexist so you have to pick one and I liked that I thought that was

brave and cool and so yeah i recommend beating it if somebody also kind of stalled out at some point and was just like i'm not sure i want to see the end that's fair i i know both of you at that point there's a lot of parrying involved yeah no i Yeah, no, I actually I installed the mod on PC that makes the pairing a little easier. Don't tell anyone. Oh, wait. You know what? I get it. There were some points near the end where I was like, I am tired of this. I will admit that.

It was probably because I was curious and I just wanted to see what it was like because I saw it was like a very popular mod. So I thought I didn't saw it. I was like, oh, this might be a good way. And I do really want to finish it. I just haven't. I kind of had to change gears. But, you know, I really enjoyed it. By the way, did you both see that? stuff about charlie cox where he's like

He's like, I don't know. I just did like three hours of work. I don't play games. Everyone keeps telling me how great I was. I feel embarrassed. He's like, I have no idea what the game's about. I went in for four hours. Super funny. It was very, very funny. I did think he was great in the game.

I think all the actors are really great, and they get some wonderful opportunities to do more dramatic acting in the last chunk of the game, as you might expect. It's very high drama. Yeah, I mean, that was the thing I liked about the game best, probably, is all the cutscenes.

Cool, yeah, I'll probably finish it. That's good to hear the ending is good. Well, I will go last. My one more thing is A Complete Unknown, the Bob Dylan movie, which I just watched, partly to prepare for an episode of Strong Songs that I'm going to be recording.

soon, talking with some other folks about Dylan. But I just also have been trying to kind of brush up on my Bob Dylan knowledge because he's never been one of my guys, even though for some people he's like... the guy like he is the songwriter that they've been obsessed with their whole lives um understandably because he's so prolific and so enigmatic and so brilliant he writes such great songs

I was pretty mixed on this movie, mixed to trending negative. I thought it was a little bit of a nothing burger, which was surprising. It wasn't what I was expecting. But, you know, not for better or for worse exactly. It was just sort of... unexpected and then in the end sort of unsatisfying so this movie is directed by James Mangold known for actually making a lot of franchise movies which I think is a sort of interesting

fact to keep in mind when thinking about this movie because in a lot of ways this feels a little bit like a franchise ip movie despite being a biopic which is kind of a weird thing about it does it does it end with like bruce springsteen coming out

We were talking to you about the band initiative. Yes, I mean, you joke, but I am actually starting to feel as though these music biopics are actually going to start having crossovers where you'll see Taron Egerton's Elton John in the background or something. Oh, that's weird. I don't know about that.

But it's this filmmaking style, I think, that really has taken hold across every style of movie. And Mangold, of course, he made Dial of Destiny in an Indiana Jones movie. He made two X-Men movies. He knows how to do this stuff. And there's a feeling throughout the movie. that you're being fed Bob Dylan.

Easter eggs. You know, it's like, oh, it's Alan Lomax. There he is in the background. Like, oh, there's the whistle, like, that he blew at the start of Highway 61 Revisited. Like, you're getting all these little scenes. And if you know Dylan at all, you'll know some of them. But then there's a...

There's a ton of stuff that I don't know. From the comics. If you've read the Dylan comics, you'll get it. It kind of feels that way. I read a really great piece by Sam Adler-Bell where he made this same complaint and was joking about the Bob Dylan extended uniform. Maybe I'll link that in show notes. He says it much more eloquently than I could. But it was definitely a feeling I had the whole time I was watching the movie. I was like, this feels like...

It's not even hagiography exactly. It just feels like we're establishing more of the lore of the early 1960s folk scene in New York. It's a beautiful looking movie. It's really easy to watch. Timothee Chalamet is... really pretty good as Dylan. He sounds like him. You know, there's all this talk. He did the work. He learned guitar. He learned to sing. It's a convincing portrayal. They don't do too much...

biography stuff, which is for the best because Dylan really is a very enigmatic guy. He's really just kind of a weird little dude who was pretty rude to people. And, you know, then Joan Baez, I'm forgetting the name of the actress who played her, but was this kind of...

of wonderful beautiful singer who they were became romantically involved and they're kind of an interesting contrast to one another because she loved of course to sing his songs she would release albums of Dylan's songs and she has this gorgeous voice and Dylan of course does not have a voice and you kind of get to see his songs transformed into something else like when she sings blown in the wind but they don't really explore that i think that was the most interesting

thing for me as a musician in the movie was just seeing that. I think that the reinterpretation of Bob Dylan is probably the most interesting thing about him. Like Hendrix's cover of All Along the Watchtower. There's a million great... Dylan covers and the fact that he wrote these songs that could be reinterpreted I think is really interesting the movie

doesn't really get into it. Because the movie kind of doesn't get into anything. It just shows a bunch of scenes. And you're excited about them, I think, if you're really excited about Dylan.

in that same way that a lot of these comic book movies can sort of feel like, well, you know, it was kind of not a great story, but hey, there was that scene where, like, the wasp... outfit turned up in the post credits so aren't you kind of excited about that it has that same kind of a feeling which is just strange because it's real people and it's

a really interesting musician that I think could be explored in a way that's like a little truer to who he was as an artist instead of like fitting his story into this conventional.

kind of IP movie framework. So I don't know. It's a weird one. I don't not recommend it. It's like lovely looking. The recreation of 60s New York is beautiful. The performances are great. There's a lot of good music. You just get to hear a lot of Dylan songs. It's like a cool... little take on his story or at least on that part of his story when he was an early folk musician and then made that kind of transition to more rock and roll music that was so controversial.

But I also just left it feeling kind of unsatisfied and like there's so much more to Dylan that I want to learn. Fortunately, there's like a million books about him and like other movies and other things that I can watch. But as an entry point, it was... shiny and kind of substance free. So yeah, I don't know. I don't not recommend it, but I also didn't love it. So that's a complete unknown. It's on Hulu right now streaming, but it's around. I'm sure it'll do the streaming. rounds.

And, uh, yeah. And that's another episode of TripleClick, folks. Did it again. Did another ep. We did it. We pulled it off. We did it. We made an episode. Made our way to the beach and repatriated into an episode. Right. There was a void out, but... It's okay. It was an unpopulated area. It's okay. Our car is still intact. Our car is still on the beach. It's true. If you're hot and your car are intact out there, please keep them so. And we will see all of you in another week. See you next week.

Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ.

Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. TripleClick is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at Maximum Fun Podcast Network.

Find us on Twitter at TripleClickPod. Send email to TripleClick at MaximumFun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows supported directly by you.