Nukesanity: Inside the Melt-up In Uranium ETFs

like the comic Con of ETFs. Every year they have this best New E t F competition with all the pundits from the industry arguing for what the best launch was of the year before. So in January I argued for u r n M, which is the North Shore Uranium Mining e t F and it just come out a month ago in December, and so nobody heard of it. And I had looked at your radium a couple of times in the ten years prior. There's a ticker called you are A which had been around and it's always bad.

It would have a little head fake here and there, but just go down again. But this story stuck with me. There was a narrative there that I was like, there's something here. And so as I've seen more people talk about E. S G, it's really occurred to me that there's definitely an inconsistency between people wanting to keep up their lifestyles yet also wanting to fight climate change. And so I was making the case on stage that you R and M is a intriguing because it launched after

a horrible back test. You never see that, and also that it was sort of like green investing for realists. Um, you know, you arguably are going to need to have nuclear if everybody can keep up what they're doing in their economies and yet you can fight climate change, you just really can't get it done with solar and wind. So that's the case I made. I didn't win. I probably came in third. It's based on like how loud the audience collapse, but I will say I won the

perform since competition race by a mile. This thing is up two since then. It's up four d and twelve since March, which is a bottom for a lot of equity. T F. That's double arc and everybody thinks arcs like the best thing. That's double arc About four times the cueues and this year it's up a hundred pcent, which is by far the best performing equity e t F. The next best one is something like So this is a white hot area. And so I will take a little victory lap and say I was on to it early,

not that I quote called it. Okay, thanks for that explanation. So if you haven't, if you haven't been able to gather that yet, we're gonna talk about uranium. Joining us is gonna be Tim Ratlo north Shore in Disease. He's the guy who actually came out with that uranium ETF. We're also going to be joined by Michael Alkin, the c i O of Sachem Cove Partners, and John Giampaglia, the CEO of Sprout Asset Management, this time on Trillions New in Sanity. Tim, Michael, John, welcome to Trillions. Thank

you having us very much. Okay, So Tim, I want to start with you because uranium was your big idea. Why why did you get this idea? How did how did it hit you? Yeah, so I'll stop you there. I mean it was Mike's idea. Mike. Mike was the one who you know I met in seventeen and he had written this just incredibly sync white paper talking about I mean really what everybody is now talking about, UM, big supply deficit, uh, you know, multi year bearer market shrinking,

equity market caps. And it just made so much sense. And I've always been attracted to deeply contrary and things, and that's that's gonna Mike spent. And fast forward to we had gotten involved in launching a hedge fund in the space and to invest in uranium, and it became apparent that there was this big four seller out there, which happened to be u are A because they changed

their mandate. And I looked at it and just said, if this thesis is correct, there will need to be some pure playing mine e t F like there is for every other commodity, gold, silver, you know, and that even rare earth metals have had an et F that was more a pure play. And it just looked like a really interesting entry point. I knew nothing about E t S at that point. UM, so it kind of got up to speed and right time, right place launched it in ten and they were off of the races

and the whole time Mike's thesis is playing out. And literally you can go back to Seen and look at videos, um that he did at conferences where he laid out the thesis, and I mean every single point, and I think you know, some of the E. S G stuff was there, but the extent to which the green and the nuclear revolution those are always kind of upside cases. But for the for the thesis to work, you never actually needed any of those things. That's just kind of

icing on the cake at this point. Um. And it's been great to see this nuclear renaissance that were kind of in the midst of beginning. Okay, so Mike, Mike talked to us more about that that renaissance and also, um, what led you to to sort of recognize that this was going to be this opportunity And also I'm really curious, you know, why has this thing basically tracked with the pandemic right, like it's really popped during that time. Yeah, Joe, sure.

So my whole career has been spent on in contrarian and looking for things that people are not interested in

at the time. You tend to find recency biases, and and the longer the bear market, uh, the longer the you know, the recency bias, and the more they had an anchor to it, right, so in the case of nuclear power, we had looked at it in the past and twenty two thousand seven and had a big run two thousand and eleven after fu Kushima, but didn't we were working on other things that didn't have time to

really die. End At two thousand and fifteen, though had looked at something where the market cap of the industry had gone from about a hundred and fifty billion down to about four billion, the number of companies had gone from maybe five hundred down to fifty, and so it was devastated. And so at that time we decided it was time to dig in and just understand what the role of nuclear power is because as all of us we see, uh you know, you talk about the greening

of the carbonizing the world. That's not it's it's gaining great momentum now, but it's it's relatively new um. But even then it was starting to come around. But we know wind and solar. So what I wanted to do was understand better the role of nuclear power versus the alternatives that can help de carbonize the world. And what I realized after spending because at that time the cell side had disappeared. If you were a cell side Uranian analyists.

You were likely fired when the commodities down, you're out of a job. And so there was really very little research. A couple of industry be forecasters that were around, but I said, let's take a fresh start at this. Is there a case for nuclear power? And when you dive in and nobody is paying attention and it's just sitting there, hiding in plain sight. When you realize is it's not a sexy growth business, but with draconian assumptions, it was

the one percent growth business. And you realize that it's not a competitor to wind and solar, it's it's a compliment to wind and solar. It's baseload, it's a beast, it's always on. And then as you dive in further, you say, wait a second, on a per tero at hour of electricity generated, it's the safest form in the world of electricity generation, which most people would say, what are you talking about? Right, But math is math. Facts are facts. And then there's the one thing you have

to try and understand is the waste. Right, we all hear on nuclear waste and again that's that's a bias that exists because at the end of the day, it's really the only contained waste. You know where it goes. It's it's a it's a cooling ponds for five years, and then it's in concrete steel reinforced casks sitting on the on their utility. So if you know where that stream is and and really uh, then looking at that saying okay, it's real nuclear power is here to can

help decarbonize the world. Eventually, the economics have to sort themselves out. It's twelve percent of electricity generation in the world. And at the time, uh, the cost of your you know, the price of uranian was probably in the high teens, low twenties, and the marginal cost of production is close to fifty. And so I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know that you can't pull something out of the ground at fifty and sell it at eighteen.

That doesn't work. So you need to have supplied discipline. And that was really the genesis of it. Now where people get confused is they look at the if you're in the US, you're in you're in Europe. It's not a growing industry here. It's it's a flat to slightly declining industry. But in in in the developing world. It's a it's a very rapidly growing industry. So you just have to be able to understand the differences. All right, Well, Mike,

you just went over a lot um. There's a lot to unpack, and there's a couple of things you want to We're gonna come back to, which is the the waste, you know, and the sentiment of having a reactor near your house. I want to get to that later in the episode. I want to just keep it to the here and now with the with the funds though, and let's bring in John and talk sprout. So we've got the r U r N M and you are a which track equities in the US, then up in Canada, John,

you have sprought physical Uranium Trust. Now this actually holds yellow powder right in warehouses around the world, like the way gold would would hold gold gold bars. And this fund has really um sort of come out of its shell held in the past couple of weeks. It's now I believe a billion holds million pounds of uranium and has become a big player in the market. And recently you had to go and ask for new shares to hit to feed the demand and that actually set up

another catalyst event for the sector. So I guess could you talk about what you're seeing up there and how you got involved. Sure, thanks for having me on so UM. Sprout Asset Management is based in Toronto and we often think of it as being the mind finance capital of

the world. So Sprout has a very long history with all things mining, and in the last uranium cycle that happened in the kind of the mid two thousand's, we were very active on the on the equity side, and uh we were also very involved with the the genesis of the preducessor vehicle, which was called Uranium Participation corps Um.

It was launched in two thousand and five. It was a holding company structure on the Toronto Stock Exchange, and after a very long pursuit, we acquired that vehicle in July and we converted it from a holding company structure to a more traditional investment fund. So it's a closed end fund that trades on the Toronto Stock Exchange. It also trades on OTC pink sheets all right now, and and the reception we received with the fund has just

been phenomenal. In the last couple of months, the trading volume is really picked up um the vehicle, as you said, almost five million physical pounds of you three O eight or known as better known as yellow cake UM. And in the last say six weeks, we've acquired over six million pounds UM as we've issued new shares in the trust, we've we've backed those with physical more physical uranium. Help me understand twenty five million pounds, let's add six to it,

thirty one thirty one million pounds. What percentage of the uranium sitting out there is that we're Is there a better way to sort of put that into context? Sure? So we right now the trust owns about twenty five million. So when we acquired the company um IT, it had about eighteen and change million pounds. So we've been adding pretty consistently. So give you some perspective, because honestly, when I first quired the fun and try to put it into context in my head, it's it's pretty mind boggling

the mount of uranium. So we could power the entire nuclear fleet in France, which produces of the country's power for one year with all of that material, just to give you a sense of how much uranium that is. So it's a huge quantity. It's it's stored at three different conversion facilities in the Western world. There's one in the US, one in Canada, and one in France. So that's where all these drums are are residing right now.

And how did you break that news to your wife that you had just acquired twenty five million pounds of uranium? How did that go over? Well, she thinks I'm a total geek anyway, So that's just added to the uh, added to the legends. Okay, walk us through what it takes to actually like take possession of million pounds of uranium. Yeah, so we're customed to dealing with a lot of bulky commodities.

We have a number of n YC listed tickers p h y S and PSLV, and so we're are custom to moving around large amounts of gold and large amounts of silver. Silver in particularly in particular, is very difficult to move around. But your aim is a whole other, obviously category. It is probably the most regulated and secure supply chain of anything in the world. As you could imagine, every single pound from mind to conversion facility to nuclear

reactor is tracked so for obvious reasons. So, um, the you know, that that gives us a lot of comfort that the supply chain is very safe and um but a lot of this stuff it moves around on ships, it moves around on trucks, and it goes from just a few places in the world. The predominant producers are in Kazakhstan, Canada, Australia, and there's a number of minds in Africa. So it's a commodity that is concentrated in only a few parts of the world, which you know

we make. We think that makes it more scarce and more susceptible to supply to disruptions. And do you think we will or could see one of these launch in the US, like a physically back uranium et F. I would I would think it would be that the iron is hot to file for one. So part of our reorganization plan for Uranium Participation Corps was a pledge that's brought would pursue a US listing and we're gonna start

that work in the in the coming weeks. Uh. Nobody has ever successfully launched a physical uranium stockpiling fund in the in the US. Somebody tried once but was denied because it was more of a trading company. So we know we we have a long road ahead of us in terms of working with the regulator to get approval for the for the new vehicle. Um, it's something we've done many times in terms of UH securing sec approval

for commodity stockpiling funds. We have a lot of experience with that and that's something we're gonna be working on. It is a novel listing, so we don't really know what we're gonna encounter until we we're right in the in the in the thick of it. The ticker that trades o t C is s r UUF. It looks like that's starting to make its way around the Wall Street bets crowd, the Reddit crowd. Why are they locking

into this trade? Um? You know, is it just because it's a place to make money or is there some other populist motive they have? Well, you know, at the end of the day, it really is about the thesis, you know, underpinning the story. Um. You know, I'm not going to deny that there's probably some some short term money chasing this right now, but that's the way the market works. But I'm I've been amazed that the growing number of investors I've spoken to that have been in

the trade for the last few years. And and just to step back a second, we've been working on this since So this isn't some some idea we just whipped up to capture some kind of you know, meme following. We've been on this for a long time because we we fundamentally thought like the market needed to reset. But in the last couple of months, I've noticed a much broadening of interest. Uh. In the early days, it was it was a very small group of specialty investors or

contrarian investors or value investors. Now I'm seeing it broaden out to generalists. They're getting interested in the story. Um, and obviously we're seeing a lot more individual investors, which I think is great UM to to make the market more liquid and active and the sprout physically. Randium Trust is the largest vehicle of its kind in the world, and and that's drawing those investors to us on both

the Toronto Stock Exchange and the OTC market. So, Mike, I want to bring it back to you because we're we've talked about the supply here. UM, there is a demand question, which is obviously you know, there there's a case for for more nuclear facilities, but you know, what's the what's the outlook like for more nuclear I mean

you mentioned the emerging world. You know there's there's all kinds of policy implications, but like what are what are you seeing and what kind of timelines are these projects on. It's a great question, Joe. So if you think about both the supply and the demand side and uranium very long lived assets, it could take it. Take Cigar Lake at one of the biggest uranium minds in the world, owned by Chemico. It was a thirty plus year endeavor

from finding it to bringing it, permitting it. Nobody wants one of these things in their backyard, right, so very long live and the same thing on the demand side, to to to to plan a reactor, to get the approvals to build it. You know, you're talking decades plus. So when you think of these things here we are, you look out to say, okay, what's twenty look like. And the World Nuclear Association, which does very holistic, bottoms up approach utility by utility to what demand look like.

And in many years they're there, they've been quite dowering their outlook, but recently the last few years they've taken that outlook up and if you just look at their recently released demand report through you're looking at two points six percent per annum and growth UH in in demand for nuclear power. And that does not factor in what you can expect to see, which would be um life extensions out to eighty years for many of these reactors,

which many of them can get. It doesn't includes small modular reactors which are easier, easier to build, more scalable. So you're seeing a nice growth profile UH and it doesn't take a big stretch with life extensions to push up towards that three percent per annum growth, which is a very reasonable growth number. Yeah. One one comment I would out about the wind and Star don't give you a couple of great ancdotes of recent So you look at the uk UM in the last year, wind speeds

have been lower than average. You know that's just out of their control. So what are they what are they've had to do? Well, they had to fire up more natural gas plants, which then caused creates more carbon offsets that plants have to buy. And look look at last February when the winter storm hit Texas, when the turbines froze, natural gas wells froze. The whole system went down at

a time when electricity demand spikes. So this whole narrative about reliable baseload power I think is very important for electrication of the grid um and also you know greenhouse gas reduction targets. Yeah. No. On on the supply side, I mean, I think when when I first looked at Mike's original thesis, what was so attractive is, as he pointed out, the thesis actually didn't require any nuclear demand growth.

You could write to zero. The issue is a supply issue and a marginal cost production issue, and that you need prices that are higher. And I think that's what you've why the price and the and the equities have been rallying so much recently, is up until now, the demand story is is kind of there, and you've had all these right sale kickers. What's been the issue is there's been there's a supply denks at this form, you don't actually have enough your anemy in the world to

power all these nuclear reactors. So just the demand growth that we're seeing now is just exacerbating that supply deficit. And and so you need that you need those higher prices in order to incent new mind production to fill that deficit. So let me jump in here with that because I get this question on Twitter a lot. Does this have room to run? And so if there's two issues going on here, one is there was a supply problem, Well,

now you are a is up. I'm going to use you are a in this example, sorry Tim, because it's been around for like twelve years, you are a since inception or since Fukushima is down still even with that massive pop. So the chart looks like a big move down and then a little a little like little dipper up hasn't come up to where it was. How far does have to run just on this supply issue? Pretend

there's no demand for nuclear is green energy? What's your estimate on that room to run on just the supply story? So it depends on you know, everyone likes to talk about where does the market balance? Right, so what's some marginal cost of production? And uh And the reality is if you look at the four uranium cycles, it doesn't

work that way, right. It's it's a it's a commodity where when when the price is down To give you a little perspective, before the last cycle that really started moving in November of two thousand when it bottomed out at seven dollars. In those dollars um UH for the prior several years it had the utilities which are the by the vast majority of uranium UM. They because it's

long lived assets, its long life minds. Typically the end is most uranium has purchased under long term contracts seven, eight, nine, ten years and longer um. During the last bottom, when prices were had bottomed out in the high single digits UM, they were contracting it about a third of their consumption per year for many many years. You fast forward to today, since twenty elve through one, they've been purchasing at about

a third of their annual consumption. When prices start moving and and and requirements are uncovered into the future, they start to have more and more out into the future. In the last cycle, you saw them purchasing at one one hundred and six for many years of their annual consumption. So it's one of these things where you're looking in

and it what's the price of balances out? You know, you could say sixty five seventy bucks you can bring on the minds, but it's not that simple because these you need many new minds to be built, and they're not built yet. And if you look at the history of bringing uranium minds online, it's very bad. So many things can go wrong, and they're in tough countries to get licenses and permits. Uh building them right now, you're gonna be facing competition for equipment in people. But but

many of these minds need to be built. O. Um. It depends where and and you know, you think about how far can they run? It depends what price you're using. If the market balances in the sixty five is seventy range, well, last time that you were signing contracts at ninety and a hundred dollars a hundred and it just to interrupt you here right now it is trading in about forty bucks. Yeah, it's trading forty four dollars, okay. And at Fukushima it was what it was. Fushima was in the low seventies,

high sixties around around that. It had peaked at one thirty seven in June seven. But when you're looking at the question, you have to ask, is it because it's a psychological battle, right, So fuel buyers have stayed out of the market for so long, and that recency bias.

If you speak to them, they tell you there's all the uranium in the world that's out there, right, Well, johns him Potley is vehicle, which is very transparent, has given the world to the fuel buyers four months to know where coming we're going to be buying uranium on a broker platform. Very trans Apparently you could go out and buy uranium to secure that uranium. And what has happened in those four months leading up to the launch of the act the money offering from sprout Crickets, they

didn't show up. They bought hardly any uranium. So for the first time in the history of uranium, John's vehicle creates daily price discovery. And what we're learning the price has gone from thirty to forty four in a month. So what that's telling you is that all of the market's perception about all this uranium that's sitting out there is wrong. So now the question becomes is what price did the producers say to the utilities, Sorry, we've had

a decade of devastation to our share price. Now we need to make up and then you'll see where that balances. So that's the current state. As if there isn't this bigger picture. I want to pivot to this ten twenty years down the road. One of the quotes I brought up on stage. I'm not sure if you were there, tim it Um. When I was on stage, I brought up this Bill Gates quote if from tenth seventeen or eighteen.

I believe he said nuclear is ideal for dealing with climate change because it's the only carbon phrase scalable energy source that's available twenty four hours a day. Then Elon musk Wade in about two months ago saying I'm pro nuclear. I think modern nuclear power plants are safe. Contrary to what people might think, it's possible to make extremely safe

nuclear energy. And then Michael Bury from The Big Short tweeted out, if the government's going to spend two trillion, there's no better use than converting the US to nuclear. And those are three very influential people. They seem to have come around mentally, they have access to Maybe maybe they're more curious than most people, but let's face it, there's a gap between what they say and what you'd

probably find if you pulled average people. They probably think of Homer Simpson, Chernobyl Uh just you know, deformed fish, how do how do you bridge that gap? You know, you're seeing more and more since in the US nuclear power is a bipartisan issue, right, which it never was. It was the left versus the right. And now you're seeing this realization that if you want to decarbonize the world by twenty fifty, as everyone is coming out proclaiming

they want to do, you just have no choice. And then that opens up the conversation and people's minds to say, okay, well let's look at some of the data. And when you look at the data, you know, we we we we. We think of the movie The China Syndrome. You think of three Mile Island at Chernobyl, Chernobyl. These are one offs and yes, scary, dangerous, but on a when you look at it, on a per terot hour of electricity produced,

nothing is safer. So I think that opens up people's minds and you take those those people you just mentioned right right, people looking at it and saying we get it. And I think if you look at public opinion polls, they're turning to how long does it take one pound of fuel to power light bulb? Right? So coal is two days, now trall gas is three days. Nuclear sixty

forty years. So I mean, when you're talking about power dead to be what it could really do, and then you start to realize that it's a safe fuel, people

start to really think about that. Yeah. Eric. One other thing I would mention is the narrative shifting also related to E s G, And obviously with COVID, e s G has grown enormously in popularity, and from many of the investors I've talked to the last few months about uranium, it's interesting that they're starting to bucket in with it in this broader E s G theme, low carbon theme, electrification theme. So it's going in a bunch of different

investors segments, which I think is really interesting. And um, I think the other point around government policy really shifting. I think you're seeing it in the with the Biden administration. You're seeing it in the EU. They're obviously arguing it

for to be in the UH taxonomy. Um, and there is you know, there are obviously countries of Germany that have opted to move away for nuclear But I sit there and I look and I say, now you want to be beholden to Russian natural gats, Good luck with that.

I want to talk about one of the other challenges UM and we mentioned this earlier, you know, which is the waste challenge, right, And that's a that's a mental hurdle that a lot of people have because, as Mike mentioned earlier, it's it is something that is known, right, it's you see it and you have to deal with it. And maybe that's a little different than some of the other offsets from energy. So what what kind of UH horizon and breakthroughs are are there on the on the

waist front that people should know about. Sure, well, you know, obviously with all things mining, you have to do with all points of the life cycle, whether it's reclaiming a side or dealing with nuclear um uh spent fuel. So our technical advisor w MC Energy was asked that question once with me and his response to that was quite interesting. He said, no one's ever died from spent fuel odds when you think about the depths that happen in coal mining,

oil and gas, etcetera. UM, it is safely stored. Nobody wants it in their backyard and it's not putting, you know, close to big populations, so it is safely stored. It does rest there for very long periods of time. And the radio activity levels of it decay very quickly in the first five to ten years. So yes, we need to find safe ways to store it. But I think we all have to to look at the trade offs

with other forms of energy production. You know, for example, coal, I think most people would be be shocked to know that in the United States, which is a very you know, one of the wealthiest countries in the world, of its electricity still comes from coal. When I think of coal, I think of people in horse and buggies a hundred years ago. It's still a huge part of the energy mix. And China coal has come down from it's still fifty seven and we all know they have major pollution issues there.

So China has really figured out that they need to build a much bigger fleet of reactors to deal with their coal issue. And that's that's exactly what they're doing. Okay, So Michael, China's the world's biggest polluter, right And where are they at in this reactor conversation? And what will those reactors actually look like? Sure? So, just just a

one more point on the on the waste. The solar panels last years, but we're seeing they last a little bit less and you're coming up to really your first big period where you've seen the expiry of the useful life. And one of the things with solar panels is they go into the general electronic waste stream and there you have nickel, laed, chromium, academium, all of these really toxic chemicals that are just sitting out there. So that's a real issue that I don't think gets enough attention to that.

Regarding China and UM, you know they have put forth by they want to decar in eyes and UM. Going back though, if you go back to the middle two thousand five time frame, they were generating six seven giggle watts of electricity and they made a seven or eight nuclear reactors. You fast forward to today they have over fifty nuclear reactors. So in fifteen years they've gone on a major spree. And if you look at most of the growth of nuclear power, uh, two thirds of that

is coming out of China. Uh. They're putting forward a big wind and solar effort. Uh. The problem you have when you do that is where as it generators generator along the coast, and then you have to transport it into the main land and you lose a lot of the electricity that takes place. So China's nuclear program is one where uh it is a little over fifty giggle wats of electricity today. Uh, and you could see that by twenty thirty and a hundred and thirty giggle wats

of electricity. And then they continue to keep growing, and they plan on keep growing and growing. They could build anywhere from ten to twelve reactors pretty year, and it's something that's a very significant program for them. And it's still a single digit percentage of their electricity generation, but you know, it does provide clean baseload power to two millions of people every time you build a reactor, So they're very, very committed to it. They're a major driver

of the cycle. Okay, Mike, I gotta ask you because this has been a really fascinating conversation, but um, effectively you run a uranium hedge fund. Is that right? Correct? Okay? So I gotta ask, like, what's it like to basically like be a character and like a James Bond movie every day? It's it's it's definitely interesting to read some

interesting characters around the world. I'll say, can I just get a sense of like some of the interesting characters that you encounter, are they like from the James Bond film. I just say that my Russian and Kazak need need improvement. I need to speak better Russian and Ka. You've probably had some good vodka. Yes, that's that's the perk to that job. Okay, Um, two quickies. I want to wrap here, um just um. First on Tim. You know, we've seen a couple of ETFs go from like nothing like oblivion.

We call it oblivion and just shoot up. It's almost like when an indie movie hits the big time, like Blair Witch Project, it happened to Jets, it happened to Cathy Wood. I would say, and you know you r n M is one of these funds that really, you know, all the ads stacked against you, and now it's uh what what well over half a billion dollars. It's now trading about eighty million a day. I looked this time last year between you and you are a you're trading

two million a day last year. On this day, you guys trade about two million a day. I mean it's a hundred times increase. I mean, what's that like when it finally hits Uh, it's it's surreal my wife was joking like I used to a year ago. I was saying, I just want to get to fifty million, you know, I just wanted to get to break even. But you know, I don't know if who said it, but but good things happened at cheap assets. And I've been a huge

believer in this thesis that Mike weighed out. It just felt like at some point people would get would get the story, and we just kind of had to keep telling it and the vehicle felt right and listen that. I think that the single best part of this experience has been the money that we've made for people who invested in the fund right, and a lot of our a lot of our growth has been a result of performance. Right. It was that the index was constructed correctly, you know,

thankfully for for us. We we decided to keep the Sproat vehicle in UM when our competitors chose to have it leave when they when they did the reorganization from UPC and DI sprought UM. I think that's been a big differentiator. But yeah, it's been fun. I mean, it's been fascinating to watch some of these guys and I always have had jets in the back of my mind. Um, you know, maybe that could happen to us, but yeah, it's been, it's been fascinating. Okay, last question, Tim, this

is something we do on every episode. Tim, what is your favorite E t F ticker that is not your own? Um? I really like the meta e t F like Matt falls Medica CTF. I was I wanted to launch that product so badly and when they and I think the guys at Round Hill have just been so good and so forward thinking about their tickers and their ideas. Um, that that's my favorite right now. Okay, Mike, what's your favorite ticker that's not Tim's? God? You know, Joel, I

don't don't repeat this. I don't. I don't pay attention. Okay, all right, I'm so embrossed in uranium and energy that I just I'm the wrong guy to ask. Okay, Sorry, you're excused your you have you have some Kazakh stans to have ovodda with you. Okay, you're busy. Yeah, and John, how about yours? Well? Um, we like we like having physical commodity funds, and we like this, we like to

pair them with mining funds. So I'm going to say you are and m for pairing with you dot you okay, we'll let you get away with it, all right, Yeah, technically it's okay, it's sorry. Sorry, you guys are uranium heads. What can you I mean? This is it's what you're gonna get? That question normally would be most most applicable to Tim, and and I think he answered it. We were satisfied with that, alright, Tim, Michael John, thank you so much for joining us and Trillion. Thanks thanks, thanks guys,

thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joe Webber Show. He's at Eric Faltunas. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson Francesca Leave, the head of Bloomberg Podcast. Bye m m m mmm mmm mmmmmm mmm mmmmmmmmm