Robert Jenrick - "I Joined Reform To Save The Country"

The political economy of the last twenty, twenty-five years. Is broken. A lot of people in reform are seeing more and more Conservatives defect and going, hang on a minute, aren't we just creating the Conservative Party two point oh? This is not what we want. The country's in a real mess. Wages have stagnated. For twenty years. You've got 93% of crimes go unresolved.

Our armed forces are as small as size they've been since Napoleonic times. You can't get people on the housing ladder now. You know, issue after issue after issue, things are very bad. What is gonna be your role in the strong team? Well I don't know. Um I Oh come on. You can't. What you're telling me you left the Conservative Party with no promise of a job what really come on. Um So it's gonna be people watching and listening to this going, hang on a minute, mate.

You were part of the Conservative government when A lot of these disastrous policies were implemented. Fess up, you need to take some responsibility for it as well. Well I do. I don't say this lightly. Last summer Constantin and I spent a week with Ralston College students and professors in Greece.

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T-O-N dot A C forward slash apply. Robert Generic? I was going to say latest defector from the Tories to the Conservatives, but by the time this will go out it won't be true anymore. It's like a as a They they wait months for a defection and then two three come along at once. Welcome. Uh we wanna talk to you obviously about the political situation of the Conservative Party, what our country has done to itself over uh time and you know, including time when you were in government.

Uh but before that, when we have politicians on, we always feel like it's good to get to know a little bit about the person and who they actually are. So what what is your story? Well, um, firstly thank you both for having me on. I've been a long term fan and so it's good to finally be here. Um look, I I grew up in Wolhampton in the West Midlands.

uh to two parents who were um from working class backgrounds in Manchester and Liverpool, moved to the West Midlands when my mum became a secretary there, my dad to work in an old fashioned kind of Victorian era uh foundry there called Cannon Industries that had made the cannons for uh Wellington's army back in the day. Um and then both of them decided to set up their own small business in the black country, um, making stoves and my dad

before he did that, trained as a gas fitter, started our business outside our house in a white van parked on the drive. And so it was in a very kind of a very loving Pretty traditional. patriotic family um where they gave me an incredible start.

to life and they weren't natural conservatives. I mean neither of them voted conservative in my childhood, or at least not as far as I'm aware. My dad certainly didn't. He came from a labor voting household, um, with l roots in the trade unions in Manchester. But they instilled in me uh without question the values that I ended up driving me into politics later on of hard work, small business. Love of country.

belief in family is the ultimate institution and foundation of everything that matters in life. And above all they gave me and my sister a great a great start in life, which then propelled us on to to other things. And what about you? What did you do, uh, before you got into politics? Well, I went first a after university. Uh my sister and I were the first people in our family to go to university. Um both my parents left school at sixteen. Um but I went to to university in Cambridge and then

Qualified as a lawyer, practiced as a lawyer in London and elsewhere in the world. Um, and then shortly in business before being elected to parliament and I was elected eleven years ago. in a by election against Nigel Farage and UKIB, would you believe it? Um and, you know, been lucky enough to be elected five times for a small town in North Nottinghamshire. Actually very similar to where I grew up in Wolverhampton. a working class town really, in the Midlands, the Northern Midlands.

uh which has grounded me enormously in everything that I've campaigned for, particularly in recent years.

I feel like I see the world through the eyes of my constituents and it's been an incredible um privilege to be their Member of Parliament. At the last general election, all the polls, those MRP polls and so on, said that I was gonna lose but Fortunately they stuck with me and The support they gave me then has propelled me on, really, and has has a lot of the thing decisions that I've made in recent years have been.

because I felt that was the right thing to do for them. Or what would they want their Member of Parliament to do? You know, let out come on to to talk about some of those debates on immigration or living standards or now this decision. to leave the Conservative Party after all these years and to go to reform. Um, that is very grounded in the world that I grew up in in Wolhampton. Will my parents still live in I guess would be patronizingly cooled provincial Britain.

uh and the people I represent now. That that that is what I'm in politics for and those are the people I want to try to represent. One of the interesting things you said when you were talking about your parents and um it's a bit of an aside, but I think it's worth exploring

uh, you know, uh by by by all counts your parents haven't disowned you for becoming a conservative and now or a form MP. And I think it speaks to something very odd, which has happened i in our all of our lifetimes where Yeah, I don't think of some of myself as someone on the right. Because mo pretty much everything that I believe didn't used to be a right wing valley. It just used to be common sense that everyone, but everyone thought.

you love your country, right? People the idea that being left wing is about hating the West or hating our civilization didn't exist. The idea that being left wing means you support open borders didn't exist, right? There were arguments about economics. But but everyone recognized countries need borders, everyone recognized you can't change your sex by uttering words. All of this stuff. So I think your parents never voting for right wing parties.

And yet, you being representing those same values as first a conservative MP and now a reform MP. That speaks to something very foundational. that's happened in our country and the West at large, doesn't it? Yes. I think you're right. I mean, they both grew up in the immediate aftermath of the Second World War.

and in v what today I suppose would be called patriotic working class communities in inner city, Manchester and Liverpool. And The values that they were they were were instilled in them by their parents, you know, as you say, love of country, uh, family, hard work. are exactly the ones they instilled in me when they were bringing me up in the nineteen eighties and nineties. And although that world was in itself actually very different, I mean their lives they'd watched

Essentially the deindustrialization of the country, the kind of businesses that they'd gone into. Uh my dad is an apprentice. uh were all going as a result of trade unions and poor management and the deindustrialization that we saw in that period. Um But but the value seemed pretty pretty constant. And the sorts of things that I have spoken about in recent years, which are now labelled by some as being on the right or or even worse, sometimes, you know, people Sign it there.

far right or extreme views, you know, which is complete nonsense, obviously. Um were just things that people took took for granted, that a country has to have borders. that y y you should have a sensible immigration policy so you don't undercut the wages of British workers or put pressure on housing. that y y you've got to try and keep regulation low so that people can set up small businesses like theirs. I mean th these are just you know, these are n this were normal views.

and represented, as I think they still do today, the common ground of British politics. Which is why I always found these debates in in politics completely puzzling, where people would be saying, Well, you can't

take the Conservative Party to the right or it's not it's not. It's just grounding it in the views of most people in this country. But a lot of our political and media elite have become totally detached from the views of the people that I grew up around, that I represent now, and I I believe uh represent not just the silent majority, but the vast majority of people in this country.

And you spoke about coming to power. Well, coming to power, getting elected in twenty fifteen. If you look at twenty fifteen, that was a different world. That was pre Brexit. Pre-Brexit party, pre-reform. I mean, your entire political career has been in the midst of a political revolution, hasn't it? It has. Yeah, a huge amount's happened. I mean, I've been elected five times, there's been a referendum. I s ended up serving in the governments of five different prime ministers.

I mean th th you'd have to be, uh, you know, Ken Clark or Michael Hesseltine or one of these figures who had been in politics for forty or fifty years to have had that career a generation before. But also politics has just changed a huge amount. I mean the the issues in politics have have changed or at least have sharpened enormously during that period. The the kind of politics of of Britain I went when I first went into Parliament so different to the ones today.

I mean when you look back with hindsight, I I think it's possible to say that all of the roots of our current problems actually can be seen.

in that period and I I now really have come to view the whole period from nineteen ninety seven to the present day as one continuum and a period when a huge set of mistakes were made by our politicians, which have now kind of come together in the last few years like a confluence of sort of wildfires where they're feeding off each other and creating more and more challenges for the country.

But it didn't quite feel like that when I was first elected. I think it was possible to believe that the state basically worked, that things weren't going in a completely wrong direction. But over time, it became very apparent to me, particularly in the last five years or so, that the country's in a real mess. that it really is going in the wrong direction and that the people that I want to represent in politics.

are finding life very, very difficult and have basically been let down by an entire generation of politicians who made bad calls on the most important issues facing the country. And i in some cases have lied to them, you know, pursued policies which were precisely the opposite of what they were setting out to do. And that leads us to the the debate that we're really having in the last week or two is Britain broken? Which may seem like a simplistic.

way of discussing but I I do believe that is now at the absolute heart of our politics. Do do you believe that the country is in a mess, is in a moment of real peril and is is is

l a risk of slipping away and requires completely radical change. The the the end of that whole twenty or thirty year political consensus and the building of something new? Or or do you think that it's not nearly as difficult and challenging as that and you can muddle along with the same old solutions

Uh that that does strike me as the big debate now and it's not it's not necessarily a left or right debate. There are people in all of our political parties who can slot into those different camps, both in their views and their natural inclination and character. I I would argue reform is the one party, which to a man and a woman

recognises that the country's in real peril and has to change. Whilst the other parties are terribly conflicted on that and you have people, including their leaders generally, are saying that no, it's not as bad as that. And that's the big divide, the big question, uh which side of you are are you on that debate?

I know which side I'm on. I've come to that view gradually, but then very suddenly and firmly. And how have you come to that view, Robert? Because there's gonna be people watching and listening to this going, hang on a minute, mate, you were part of the Conservative government. when a lot of these disastrous policies were implemented. This is the reason that we're here.

Fess up, you need to take some responsibility for it as well. Well I do, actually. I mean I'm probably been when I was in the Conservative Party, I was probably the most frank and honest about the mistakes that it made. Uh the day after the general election, I wrote an article saying that it that government completely failed the country on immigration, on public services, on tax.

And I've fought since then a public and private argument to persuade the Kazoto Party to be as honest as possible as the foundation for changing and rebuilding trust with the public. Mm my own journey I I I I'd I'd like to think is agenda most people in the country have actually been on. It's not a it's easy to decry it and say, well, you know

I don't know, like Ken Clarke, you should have exactly the same views you had when you were a child. And, you know, you should be set in aspic. Well, I don't think that's but first of all, that isn't normal. That's not how most people think. And I don't think that's what's happened in the country over the last

twenty years. Well talk to us about your own. Let me just a ask you s something more specific because I remember a while ago we've been talking about having you on the show for a while. Uh somebody said to us you've got to have generic on because he is a true convert. And what they meant was they said that you went into the immigration department

fairly, you know, soft and kind of gentle on things. And by the time you'd come out, you were pretty hard line because of what you saw and experienced. Is that a fair characterisation? Yes or no. I mean I think the my the the roots go back deeper than that actually. Um i in in most of the government departments that I served in, I ultimately came to the conclusion that the state was failing. And one experience.

compounded the other. So when I was housing secretary, I went in and wanted to build more homes. Wanted to get the country building again generally, because it's not just homes, is it? It's roads, railways, it's da data centers, factories, you name it. And

found that almost nothing can get built in this country. We're letting down generation after generation of young people because they can't get on the housing ladder. There were campaign groups that were making almost impossible to achieve our objectives, often using, you know, spurious regulations like neutr neutrality to prevent a hundred thousand homes being built and members of parliament putting

small minorities above the obvious long-term interest of their constituents, let alone the national interest. And a ultimately a prime minister in a government that was not willing to do what was necessary. So they frustrated the ambition to to build more homes, to radically improve the planning system. Then during COVID. I saw the state. Kind of in all its pomp, trying to be as overbearing as possible, yet very powerless, you know, with one or two exceptions.

it you know, the vaccine program or whatever people reach to, by and large, most of the things it tried to do were failures. you know, whole government departments were on the verge of collapse, programs were failing, billions of pounds was being wasted. It it wa the state was unable to respond to a moment of national crisis. And but you are right to say the home office was the most

Stark and impactful of all of those experiences because I walked into a department which I didn't have experience of previously. Um I'd never been there and I hadn't probably thought as deeply as some people had about immigration. And it was a complete bin. You know, this the the the department By which I really mean the state was then able to do the most basic functions you'd expect.

keeping the public safe, securing our borders. You had thousands of people coming across on small boats, billions of pounds being wasted, hotels being booked, you know, left, right and centre in towns and cities across the country. Uh y y you had no data or understanding really of what was happening. Um, every day some new crisis would happen. That you know, there'd be an outbreak of infectious diseases uh

Uh, Manston uh camp where people were being brought immediately upon arrival, you'd have appalling crimes occurring. I remember the day when I discovered that. um, a veteran in Bournemouth had been murdered by an illegal migrant who'd come into the country, posing as a child, been given into the care of foster parents, and then in a school and then had gone on to kill someone. Um and I did what I I I don't think my predecessors did do.

or not so much, which was actually to go and meet the people who were the victims who were on the front line. So I went to the council estate on the top of the cliffs in Dover where the residents had when the boats were in that those days still arriving on the beaches rather than the appalling taxi service that we've created now.

illegal migrants were getting out of the boats, clambering up, and were often being found in the gardens or even, you know, in the the homes of people'cause they were looking for food or drink or money or whatever. Um and listen to their experiences. Or actually went to the hotels to see what it was like for the people living in Stoke or Peterborough, next to the hotels whose lives were being turned upside down. And it was easy for the home office to say, Oh, well it's um

you know, run down Victorian station, hotel that no one cares about. Well, actually it's opposite the station, by the statue of Josiah Wedgewood, it's the pride of place in Stoke on Trent, and it's a total disgrace now that it's full of illegal migrants. And those experiences were very formative to me. It it left me feeling, firstly, that the state which is unable to perform its most basic functions. Secondly, the we as a kind of political class were massively letting down the public.

and that so many people were indifferent to that because their own lives were insulated from those experiences. It wasn't them living next to these hotels. It wasn't their kids who couldn't get on the social housing waiting list. They were a world away from the experience of the people on that estate in Dover.

And then probably the worst thing that radicalized me the most was the sense that the responses to this were all a sham. That intelligent people knew that these things were not going to work. And yet they still put their names to it. You know, you'd have stop the boats, smash the gangs, there would be slogans. Which were parroted out by people who were not fools, you know, these were smart people, understood what was happening, and yet in their hearts, they knew this was not going to work.

But they either didn't care enough or showed such kind of disregard for public opinion that they were willing to go along with it and pretend that something was going to happen when it really wasn't. The the experience I remember, the most searing one of all, was couple of days before I resigned. from the cabinet over the Rwanda positive, which was which was basically a sham.

And it wasn't going to work. It wasn't strong enough. Not not the idea itself was wrong, but it was so weak the version of it because it didn't exclude the ECHR and the merry-go round of human rights appeals that would have happened. As evidenced by ultimately what did happen in that after the general election, Yvette Cooper walks into the Home Office, and of all the people who'd been rounded up to go on those flights, only two people were still in custody. Everyone else had had to be released.

Ultimately, you know, that's one of the reasons why Russian Sunak called the early general election, because he knew the policy was going to fail. But we had a cabinet. sort of committee meeting in Downing Street in the Cabinet Room to sign off on the bill that was supposed to go through Parliament that became the Rwanda Bill. And everyone there knew it wasn't going to work. It was obvious

It was just in fact people joked about it round the table. You know, laughter or why do we stick this turn of phrase in to f you know, because that kind of is gonna fool people. And of all that group of people, I was the only person who was willing to say, I just do not believe this is going to work. And no one really disagreed with me. But they just were not prepared to do what was necessary, and so went along with it, and were willing to look the British public in the eye.

And I when I remember walking out of Downing Street, it was a you know cold November evening and thinking, what would my constituents think if they had been sat round that table listening to that conversation? I mean, they would have been a disgusted and appalled by it. And that was just emblematic of what was happening in government. Bad decisions, a sham really, where people were lying to the public and not prepared to do what was necessary to fix the big problems facing the country.

And I suppose from From that point onwards, I have tried to Tell the truth. To be willing to be honest about the problems that are facing the country and and above all not to defend the indefensible, which is one of the things I said last week when I when I left the Conservative Party. I'm not going to do that ever again. And if I can play a role In politics, it will be by saying very clearly: what are the problems facing this country? How do we fix them? And try to push.

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When you describe the the events, I completely believe you. But I also think, wait on a second, isn't that just political suicide? Because eventually what's gonna happen if you pursue policies that you don't believe in that are essentially a glorified sham?

eventually the truth will come out. Well, that's what we've seen, isn't it? I mean that that was I mean, in in the pure politics of it, that was the absurdity of the situation, that it was obvious this wasn't going to work, and it was obvious the Conservative Party was going to get

smashed at the ballot box if solutions were not found to that issue and others'cause not just about immigration. You can say the same about why are we not building homes? Why are living standards stagnating, you know, net zero that's impoverishing people and deindustrializing our country. But it's this pursuit of simple solutions in order to get by rather than actually tackling the root cause of the issue and being willing to do some very tough things. And I uh that that is at the heart of this.

fracture that there is in British politics between those people who pursue that tinkering around the edges strategy because it's the easy way out, or because they care about their own respectability and they don't want to to take on shibbolets like international law or leaving treaties, really getting to the heart of the problem, and those people who are willing to do that. And we've seen the same, frankly, with this Labour government where

Once again, there's no real desire to create proper plan to address the big challenges facing the country. And so the decline that we're in just goes on and on and on. And the rubber's hit the road now. You know, the country can't continue like this. It i i i I mean it can, but it will just slip it'll s it'll start to slip away. And and and some of these issues now y or almost unavoidable at some point, you know, the public finances. For example, just i we're not gonna be able to be sat here and

ten years time and no one has tackled the size of the state and the out of control spending and borrowing that there is right now. So on on on many of these issues, we're reaching a moment of truth where Someone and some party has to grip the country, tell the truth to the electorate and get on and do what's necessary. And I I fundamentally believe that people want that now. People don't want to be lied to anymore. They are willing to. understand trade off.

and to see someone get on and do things. and really blitz the big challenges facing the country. Well we'll talk about understanding trade offs'cause I th you may be being optimistic. I I wish peop more people understood the idea that if you want certain things you can't have certain other things. And we'll we'll talk about that. But You're not the first person that sat across from us, having been a cabinet minister or indeed a prime minister.

Who's talked about the fact that when they got in to a department and they started pulling levers, what they found out is those levers don't go anywhere. The signals don't get don't reach some kind of destination. So What there there's some simple narratives that are spread about you know, it's the civil service, it's resistant, it they have their own ideology, they won't do what you wanna do. or, you know, overall incompetence. We haven't hired the best people or whatever.

uh or it's actually, you know, cabinet ministers never wanted to achieve those changes in the first place, as you say. But why is it that when well meaning, talented people go into departments as members of a government and try to do things they find as you did or as you say you did, that it's not possible to do. Well I think it's all of those things. Um I I I generally think it's a bad captain that blames the ship and the crew. And so a part of it has to be the politicians themselves.

It can't just be saying it's the civil service, you know, the blob, whatever you want to, although there are undoubtedly issues there. Part of the issue has been, firstly, a lack of will. to do what's necessary. And From whom? From politicians. From from our our most senior politicians. Some of whom I think just didn't know what they wanted to achieve. You know, w uh all all really of our recent prime ministers have disappointed in different ways. And

None. I mean I think Liz Trust is probably the one who had the clearest idea of what she wanted to achieve in office, although did not execute it successfully. Um so she used perhaps in a different category. But all of the others you really aspired, even craved the role of Prime Minister, but when they got the Great Prize, they didn't know what they wanted to do with it. They didn't have a deep conviction and the consistency that you need to

stand by the ministers who are trying to do it, you know, not to flinch when things get difficult. And that became painfully apparent. I think many of them actually were just They were- they- They supported ideas which were failed ideas. You know, they they they took a few very big but very bad calls in politics. I mean we can talk about some of them, whether it's net zero, mass migration. a big state, you know that they they perpetuated ideas w which were were failed ideas. I think some

put their own personal respectability above doing what was necessary. You're talking about something like leaving the ECH. Yeah, I think that's what I remember. That's the most classic example of that where

The debate has shifted quite a lot in recent years, without question. But s uh you know, I would argue that it's not people are not all entirely honest in saying that they now support leaving the ECHR. You know, if if actually confronted with, I suspect a lot of those people wouldn't wouldn't do it.

Um, but suddenly a couple of years ago, you know, there were definitely people who just felt this was kind of a dirty argument that they they wanted to be someone who was seen as virtuous. and could go to conferences or uh appear at Davos or pursue non executive directorships after they left politics and and taking on issues like that.

w they were just not prepared to do it, even if they knew that it was probably the way to resolve the issue. And that was a problem. But but you but it is fair to say all the other things you said as well. I mean the the state is very weak in our country at the moment. And that's that has to be addressed, whether that's reform of the civil service Uh the quangos that we have right now, which are unaccountable to ministers.

So that y you struggle to get things done, even if you do have somebody who isn't a technocrat but is actually a meritocratic, you know, determined person who wants to fix things. Um and then this network of laws that have grown up. really since the Blairite period, which seem superficially attractive, the Qualities Act, Climate Change Act, Human Rights Act, but which together have created a web

Which means it's immensely difficult for ministers to get on without being judicially reviewed or challenged on different things. And so unlike predecessors in the eighties who took on

different but equally challenging problems that the country was facing, it's now very, very difficult to effect change. And that contributes to the sense of frustration and anger and disillusionment there is in the country because people are voting for change and yet politicians just don't seem to have the ability to show progress. Or at least not quickly enough. And you've seen that with Labour. You certainly saw it with the last Conservative government.

I believe people will vote for change again, whenever the next general election is. If say that's a reform government, then i i if people you know, that government was not able to bring about visible change quickly, then I really worry what would happen to our politics. Not as as well as our country, because if people had chucked out a failing Conservative government, then chucked out a failing Labour government, and then voted once again for something else. and that didn't succeed, then

people would just throw their their hands in the air, wouldn't they? And say, What's the point? What's the point? for for those of us who've chosen to now throw their weight behind reform as the best vehicle to fix the country, it's incredibly important that we use the next two or three years to do what previous oppositions have not done, which is develop a serious, credible plan and a proper team that's capable of actually changing the country and showing change.

quickly so that you can give a sense to the public that things are gonna get better. And how much of this is ideology as well? How much of this is people really believing in these radical policies like Net Zero? Whatever you criticism you may level against Ed Miliban. I don't think you can say he's been disingenuous. You look in his eyes, he's a true believer. Yeah, I think Ed Miliband is the is the outlier in the present cabinet, in the

He he does know what he wants to achieve. He had given it thought. He had a plan. He knows how to get things done. He's probably a capable, intelligent, competent person. I fundamentally disagree with what he's trying to do. And it I would argue it's being absolutely disastrous for the country. Um

those are the most dangerous people. But in a sense we you know, on the right, we have to do that ourselves, but you know, but with the right policies that will actually fix the country. Um it does feel to me, I mean, to the point I tried to make earlier The political economy of the last twenty, twenty-five years is broken. And within that, there's a number of ideological choices that have been made.

which are m their roots lie in that kind of Blairite, Brownite era. But the last Conservative government didn't disabuse them. In fact, in many cases did more of them and they are failed ideas, which have been proven to fail, caused immense damage, and ne now need to be swept away. That isn't happening at the moment under the Labour government.

the the question is can it be swept away and a new political order brought in at some point in the future, hopefully after the next general election. And, you know, within those would be mass migration, which Tony Blair started, but the last Conservative government just increased dramatically and and actually in terms of the mix of countries and cultures that came into the country uh has made it significantly worse.

the obsession with net zero that has deindustrialized the country at a rapid pace, made us poor and uncompetitive. probably the single biggest problem for our economy right now. Failure to build anything because successive governments have just given in to NIMBYism and not reformed the planning system so that you you you know you can't.

get a road or data center or factory built, let alone the homes that young people need. It's just and then for young people it's meant social contract has essentially been shredded over the course of my adult lifetime. You know, I mean there are other ones as well, the the bureaucratic state, the rise of quangos, um y you name it.

There is an ideological framework that has built up over 20, 30 years, which I think has run its course now. And that has to end. And some people can see that, some people can't. uh I believe we've got to have now a radical new set of policies. to fix the country. Do you think the two big political parties are no longer fit for purpose if you think that essentially they're broad coalitions, both Labour and Conservative, of people that you look at and you go

Is that really tenable? Is it tenable to have a left-of-center liberal with a hard-left socialist? I mean not really, is it? No. I I think they are both both basically broken now. Um they they are too broad. So they're ideologically incoherent and you see that in both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party. They in different ways have contributed to breaking the country, and so there's been a massive loss of trust. in both of them. And I don't think that's coming back.

anytime soon. I mean we might be sat here in ten years time or fifteen years time and people have a different point of view. But I don't believe in the in the next few years, in this electoral cycle, people are going to have faith in the Labour Party or decide to give the Conservatives

uh the keys again when they're kind of the arsonists who made all these mistakes not so long ago. People aren't fools, they can they can remember that and they see the same faces as well on the front bench who were the ones who who made the mistakes not so long ago. Y to my point about change or the status quo, both parties are really prisoners of their past and of the set of Failed ideas.

And they are struggling to break out of that. I I don't think they're going to. I don't think they're capable of changing, or at least not fast enough. given the the problems that the country faces. And that's why people are are prepared in a way they haven't been for generations to give something new a chance and say, you know what, well let's give You know, reform in my case.

a chance because the other parties just seem like they failed so badly and they can't change, won't change. If in fact if they were in government again they'd probably make the same mistakes all over again. Robert, why don't you leave and defect right after the election?

Because presumably you haven't discovered your the worldview you have now in the last week or two, right? No, that's fair. I mean the I mean it's certainly true that the last general election, I I stood on a quasi-independent platform in that I rather like Sweller, you know, I was putting things on leaflets that were not Conservative Party policy, like leaving the ECHR and

um knocking on doors, reminding people how to resign from Richard Sunet's cabinet and my activists, you know, would say, Well, you you know, if you're a reform voter, well Rob Rob's more reform than reform and so why bother? You may as well keep supporting Rob and so on. But I did I had a deep. loyalty to the party. You gotta remember I joined the Conservative Party when I was age sixteen.

in Wolverhampton after the nineteen ninety seven general election. There were not many sixteen year old conservatives anywhere, let alone in Wolverhampton back then. And it was a sort of con it was actually a a a contrarian act. 'Cause at that stage that was, you know, the height of Blair and most people my age were uh excited by the what I think turned out to be the false promise of that Blairite era.

Uh but then I and I stuck with the Caserto Party through good times and bad. I was never like an insider in the Caserto Party. You know, I wasn't you remember all the history of the Caserto Party, never on the A list or had these big figures in the Tory party, you know, hooking me out and trying to promote me. But I was always a kind of grassroots conservative.

that was very much the kind of leadership campaign I ultimately fought. It was the grassroots out of London. It w you know the people who voted for me were the members in the north, the Midlands, Wales, East Anglia. It wasn't Kensington and Chelsea and the kind of more fashionable part of the Conservative Party establishment. They they actively campaigned against me. Um But I wanted the Kloto Party to succeed, and I perhaps naively believed that I might be able to change it.

And, you know, I looked to people there aren't many examples, but there are people who have led other political parties where they've fashioned it into something at least for a period that was very different to what it had been before. Blair did that. Like Blair. And if and these, you know, when I talked to the Conservative Party, those were the examples I gave. You know, you you had to be painfully honest about the mistakes that you'd made.

apologize and but sh but i it'd be a sincere one where people could genuinely see that you shared the anger at the failure. Um you weren't just saying it for the for for for part short term benefit. And then change the party. And that change would be painful, because it had to involve taking on your own party, like Blair did, not just trying to seek unity for unity's sake. But you know, if you want to leave the ECHR.

say from the beginning, I believe we have to leave the East Church. And if some people didn't like it, then part company with them. Because, you know, you have to have some religion at the heart of the broad church in a party, or else no one will believe it. Um, and bring forward different people from the next generation, different ideas, and almost create a new Conservative Party. And

I think with hindsight that was the party just wasn't prepared to do that. It it wasn't prepared to confront its past. It it wasn't prepared to change. It was too willing to slip into nebulous ideas like what are our values and our principles, but not really get to the heart of what had gone wrong, have a diagnosis of why the party had failed in government. And over the course of the the year and a half, two years that followed the general election,

There were just numerous occasions where it became painfully apparent to me that the party was not capable of changing. Like what occasion? Well they may seem small in and of themselves, but

they built on one after the other. I mean I give you give you recent ones, over the Christmas holidays when I was really mulling over, you know, I was sort of the final stages of deciding what to do. I woke up like most of the country did to the news at Starmer had celebrated this Egyptian extremist El Fatah coming into the country.

and retweeted that this was wonderful news and we should all rejoice. And looked at his social media, saw that he was a thoroughly nasty piece of work, you know, anti Semitic. And to why to the police should be killed, the downies should be burnt down. The list went on and on and on. All standard labour policies really. Well yeah, I mean uh na natural client for Lord Herman probably. Yeah. Um and

So I went I did what I why I I've been accustomed to doing. I you know, I went on social media, went on the T V, said that this guy was terrible, he should be deported.

And then imagine my surprise when complaints went in about me within the Conservative Party saying, Well, you can't talk about this because you're drawing attention to the fact that the last Conservative government

gave this man citizenship. And the root cause of the whole problem is that he has citizenship, and that numerous senior people in the Tory party went off to Egypt and campaigned for him, you know, saying that he the the number one priority of the UK and Egypt supposedly is to get this guy to come back home. You know, I can give you other examples as well. But examples like this showed to me that the party was not prepared to confront its past. And

to be honest about that, to say like I did when somebody asked me, Well, what do you think about us giving in the Tories giving him citizenship I said, Well I'm ashamed that the Cassette Government gave him citizenship. And if you can't even acknowledge the mistakes that you've made I don't see a world in which you can i change, restore the public's trust and persuade people that if by some miracle you're able to get back into government you'd do things differently in the future.

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What I was gonna ask is what you're describing, and I don't think this is unusual. It happens to many organisations, political parties, groups of human beings in general. is a group of people who fundamentally forgotten what their central mission is, which is to serve the country and to serve people. Instead it's an organization that's focused on itself, on its own survival, on its own internal strife. Is that an accurate description of the Conservative Party today?

Yes. Yes, I think it's become It's like a sort of Westminster dining club now, where people are clinging on to the vestiges of power, uh, enjoying being members of parliament. having titles which actually in reality mean nothing like shadow this, shadow that. Um But have forgotten what the purpose of this is. You're in politics to try to change the country and

To do that you've got to have a very different attitude where you've got to l actually understand the challenges that the country's facing and bring forward solutions to it. Um I also just think that two One of the problems the Conservative Party faces today is that Too few conservative MPs really believe in anything at all.

Th there's definitely a left of the Conservative Party and there's a little bit of a right, although that really is now going en masse to reform. So th I don't think there really will be a right of the Conservative Party going forward. But the the biggest group in the Conservative Party are decent people who are drawn to public service. as a constituency MP, the idea of ultimately serving in government as a minister, but don't have a very deep conviction one way or another.

And the problem with those people is that you get blown around in the wind by events. you know, in our incredibly fast paced world today of social media and and when you're faced with a country with immense challenges like the one we have today, you have to have people who

have a very, very strong sense of why they're doing this. What do you want to achieve? They're kind of gripped with it. They're they're restless people who are like waking up in the middle of the night worried about things and thinking and got ideas, um, who are walking the street. you know, they might be privileged in their own lives, but want to understand

how tough it is for other people. You know, how do you get law and order back? How do you secure our borders? How do you raise living standards? And that is just not a description of today's Conservative Party. It's by and large a group of decent which have come together in a kind of cozy club.

which is insulated from the challenges the country faces and don't see the urgency. They do not really see that Britain is in peril, that the country that we know and love could slip away and has to be arrested with serious radical policies. They don't want to do that. And those people who do, and there are some still within the Conservative Party, I you know, I honestly think they've gotta now leave the Conservative Party. And

join reform because it's that is the vehicle for radical change now in the country. If you want real change, you're not going to deliver that through the Conservative Party. Because there is a worry, Robert, and I'm glad that we've touched on this. And a lot of people in reform and supporters of reform are seeing more and more conservatives defect and going, hang on a minute.

Well, if we just get all the old Tories coming to reform, aren't we just creating the Conservative Party 2.0? This is not what we want. No, it mustn't be that. It really mustn't. Look, uh undoubtedly it needs experience. And, you know, Nigel says we can't he can't win. One minute he's accused of being a one man band.

And then the next minute he's got all these other people who some of whom are actually very well known. And so it's demonstrably not a one man band anymore. And he's been criticized for for bringing in those people. But where you're right. is that it it's got to have freshness to it. And I think you you do that in two ways. Firstly, when you do bring in people from the Conservative Party or or indeed any any other political party

We should be trying to attract people from the Labour Party or or others as well. They do have to be people who both share the values of reform and share this sense that the country is in peril, that our political class Have failed the country and have that kind of burning, kind of fierce desire within them to fix things.

And that is why you know, when I speak to someone like Zia Yousuf who's a genuine political outsider, successful businessman who's come into politics without having served as a member of parliament for anyone else, you know. I think I probably have more in common than with him than some people might think because both of us have a have a a disdain for the political class that has governed the country in recent years.

And then I think you the other thing you've got to do is attract people who've not been in politics. at all. And that that strikes me as more important than attracting

a small number of remaining conservative MPs who might be very ideologically aligned with reform. You want to get people who are business people and veterans and farmers and doctors and people who've been great prison governors or uh NHS trust you know chief executives, uh people who've been spurned by the two old political parties and bring them into politics. That's starting to happen.

But that's the great opportunity of reform to attract those people and then propel them into the front line of politics so they can actually run the country in a way which It hasn't been run in recent years because you've had politicians who are predominantly career politicians. Often doing jobs that they know nothing about, often for very short periods of time, without deep understanding or ideas on how they fix those things and with often disastrous results.

So it's it's it's finding the right balance, which is gonna be key to reform. But it mustn't you lose its radical edge. I mean I if if it does, I may as well just stayed in the Conservative Party. The reason or one of the reasons I was attracted form and to want to be part of this team is that

It is the best vehicle for radical change in the country. Well, we're talking about people defecting from the Conservative Party. I look at Swela, I mean that makes complete sense. I look at yourself, that makes complete sense. Nadim Zahwe and his behavior during the COVID, I'm I'm gonna be honest you Robert, to me that is and to a lot of people in this country, that is a pretty big red flag.

When you think about the sort of the epitome of the modern Tory party and what's wrong with it, Zahwei, in my opinion, represents that. Yeah. Well, I think Nigel's view, uh, who ultimately is the decision maker in these is that, you know, Nadeem is somebody who's an incredibly successful businessman. Um, somebody who's built world class businesses from nothing. whose own personal life story is very inspiring. Came as a immigrant fleeing persecution and Assadam Hussein.

and built a very successful life here in the UK who brings ministerial experience and a vaccine programme in whatever your view might be um on vaccines, it was demonstrably

the world's most successful vaccine program. Um, you know, we were the f we were the leading country in the world to do that, bring in the private sector to do it. So I think there's a lot that he offers to to the party, but the the the broader point you're making is undoubtedly right that there can be a small number of people who bring experience of government who know what needs to be done, who can learn from their mistakes as well and have the honesty

to acknowledge the mistakes that they personally made and suddenly that the Cassette government made, or no illusions about that. Um, but that can't be the be all and end all. It's gotta be just one element of a broader group of people that come together. And most people, the balance, has to be people who are political outsiders who are gonna make sure that reform remains.

the best vehicle to change the country, not just slipping into the old ways of the Tory party or the Labour Party. Well this has got to be one of the big challenges for reform. Which is where do you get three hundred and fifty, let's say, of those people? And in in some ways I totally understand. I think Francis point about Nadim Zahabi, I agree with you. He's a very successful businessman, very smart guy, very sharp guy.

But we come back to the point where he promised to not introduce vaccine passports and then two weeks later, however long it was, did. Right. And that is exactly the Tory, slippery behavior that you were describing, where people are blown by the winds of the events. Whereas forgive me, I may be very old fashioned. I'm only in my early forties, but I remember a time when politicians you would say, Well, I committed not to do something, the Prime Minister is making me do it, I resigned.

Right. And I don't remember. Well I'm not sure you do remember many of those because they're they're actually incredibly rare. Uh Robin Cook? Yeah. Claire Shaw. I remember them. Yeah, there are there are there are honourable examples. Um there aren't that many of those people. Um Well if we had more of those people, we'd have prime ministers who don't force people to do stuff they don't want. I totally agree with you and

And never underestimate the impact that you can make doing that. I mean I was Um, I was a relatively junior or one of the most junior members of the cabinet when uh I was asked essentially to pilot a bill through Parliament on Rwanda that I didn't believe in. And I said, Well I'm not prepared to do that.

And it created a massive national debate on on the whole policy. And so it is powerful when you say, I'm not prepared to just be another person who says one thing in private, does another thing in public. Uh, we do need more of those principled people. I would say about Nigel. that one of the qualities that he undoubtedly has is consistency on issues. That's very true. Um on

the some of the biggest issues facing the country. I mean, he's been talking about the dangers of mass migration since I was a teenager, when Tony Blair opened us up to migration at scale from EU accession countries before others. So that's twenty or thirty years of consistent advocacy when it was an unfashionable point of view. He was the one who's out in the channel talking about the small boat.

putting it on his own social media when there was no media interest in the issue he was laughed at really and people are not laughing now and it's become one of the biggest issues facing the country and emblematic of

failure and unfairness within the country. So he he personally is somebody of conviction and consistency. And that is very important in a prime minister. probably the single most important quality if you wanted to serve under somebody in government is to know that they're going to stick by you if you're prepared to do tough things and that it's very clear the the course that is being set for the government.

And so people should have faith in him and that hopefully he will build as I think is you can now begin to see a strong team of people around. Now that I agree with. Uh speaking of a strong team, what is gonna be your role in the strong team? Well I don't know. Um I Sh Oh come on. What you're telling me you left the Conservative Party with no promise of a job what really come on. Um I'll wash up, I'll make I'll make cups of tea. Yeah. Um

No, I'm honestly What would you like to do? What would be your preference? Would you want to have the immigration brief again and have a proper crack at it inside your preference? I didn't join the party on some kind of deal I've joined because I'd come to the conclusion. Robert, come on. No but look, come on. I'm telling you the uh I'm telling you that the truth. Uh I am. Look, I joined To help make reform stronger so that we can have a a team of people and we can build

serious, credible policies in the months and years ahead. And there'll be different ways I might be able to do that. Ultimately that's a A decision for Nigel Mule. You have to you have to have him on your show. Well, we've had him on our show many times and will again, of course. Uh we'd love to have all the party leaders on our show.

You know, it's really interesting hearing some of your ideas. I'd love to sit down like this with Zach Polansky and Keir Starmer and all all I I think we will get better politics when every politician who is within touching distance or in positions of leadership has to

speak in this way about issues at length and you really get to know a little bit about what their thinking is, where they're coming from, how trust whether you perceive them, etcetera. I'd love to see the by the next election, in the same way we had a podcast election in America.

I I we need one in in the UK is my in my opinion. I know that's very self serving. It works for you guys. But I think yeah, I think you're right. And I mean if I've learned anything in the last uh couple of years it i y you just you do have to do politics differently to the way it was done before and it's been helpful to me to get out of Westminster, take up issues try to speak directly to people, whether it's on podcasts or through videos I've done on, you know

Tradesmen having their tools nicked or uh fair dodges on the London Underground. Trying to find new ways of speaking to them or actually just getting stuck in and shaming the authorities into action is absolutely key. Yeah. Uh go ahead, Frank. We're actually

And people may think this is hyperbole hyperbole, but I don't actually think it is. I think we're at a really dangerous place in our democracy. Because think about it like this: if you're an ordinary man or woman, you voted, let's say conservative. You wanted Brexit to happen. Brexit was fudged. We had pro Romain.

PMs, you then had another fudge, you then it finally happened, and then you had all these promises about restricting immigration. It didn't You then had Labour come in who said they're going to tackle it. So you're thinking to yourself, well, quite frankly, what's the point? What are the other alternatives when it comes to government? Because if democracy can't deliver these things

Then should we try something else? And you hear the kids, young people talk about abolishing, you know, capitalism isn't working, and in a way they've got a point, it ain't working for them. You look they go, democracy isn't working, and they're right, it ain't working for them. So this is a very dangerous moment, isn't it? It is. But this is my point when people ask, is Britain broken? And there are some people, like Kemi and Starmer, who who make the argument that Britain is not broken. Well

just walk the streets, talk to people, go to the pubs and the factories and the cafes and understand the lives of people in this country. Wages have stagnated for twenty years. You've got ninety-three percent of crimes go unresolved. Our armed forces are as well as size they've been since Napoleonic times. You know, NHS waiting lists continue to be terrible.

was it forty percent now of young people, um, you know, one in five young people are leaving university and earning less than they've never gone to university in the first place. You can't get people on the housing ladder now. You know, issue after issue after issue. Things are very bad. And as you rightly say, people voted for change at the last general election.

They didn't have faith, let's be honest, in Keir Starmer or to Rachel Reeves, even then. But it was It was like a cry from the heart that they were so angry and frustrated with the Conservatives that anything will be better. So almost every constituency in the country was a by-election where they just the result the the the the the essay question was, how do I get rid of the Tories? And that led to the worst ever election defeat where only a few people managed to to survive.

by chance or good fortune, whatever. And then it's been as bad, if not worse, under Labour. And all of these problems just seem to be getting worse and worse and worse. So that that that is my central argument that the next election is almost the last chance for the country. And if the public vote for change then And they get let down once again. Five reform or did by anybody who who gets in, I think that the country's gonna go down

a very, very dangerous path then. Both the country itself will continue to slip away into decline, social and economic decline, but also people's trust in politics will just be shredded beyond repair. And that's why there's such a onus on people like myself to put party loyalty to one side, get behind What you believe is the best vehicle to change the country, and I believe passionately that is reform and make it a success.

So it actually has a serious and credible plan. So it doesn't let the country down after the next general election. And that that is what I'm gonna dedicate, you know, every waking hour to between now and the next general election. Going into this year, I told myself I was finally going to stop guessing about my health. Like most people, I want more energy, better focus, and to be still strong and sharp years from now.

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So make sure to mention trigonometry to support the show. Once again, head to superpower.com and use our code TRIGGER at checkout. Because there's gonna be a lot of people going, Robert, you're very eloquent, you're great, re perform talk's a good game. And I completely agree with your diagnosis, but how are we gonna save the patient? Yeah.

Well, the first thing is reform w what Nigel has managed to do is to speak for millions of people in the country. He understands the depth of frustration and disillusionment there is, and articulates that very powerfully. Coupled with that, he does have a personal record of having voiced those issues for a very long time. And he's been talking about net zero as as Richard Tice, uh, well before it was fashionable to do so and there are other examples as well. But that's not enough.

You've got to then build a team of people. So that we go into a general election, people think, actually this is a serious group of credible people who could actually run the country. They seem to be people who are gripped with the scale of the challenge and could get on and do the job. And then have a a set of plans.

that are comprehensive and are ready to go on day one. Have legislation drafted where necessary so that you don't waste months or years. Cause we all know that the first six months, the first year in office is The only moment you've really got to do radical things in the country, and you know, whether you love or loathe Donald Trump, I think we can agree that.

there was a galvanizing moment when he first came to office because he did have a plan and he got stuff done in the first few weeks and months that even his critics had to acknowledge. was was important and was achieving things and doing what he said he was going to do. And although the issues here are very different and

you know, there's not a direct comparison. That is what we have to do. We've got to be ready to go so that we can actually change the country and not make the same mistakes again. Well, and the problems you're facing are gigantic. And you talked about trade offs. This is really important to talk about because um my worry is the worry that you've articulated, which is a lot of people will re vote for reform at the next election. I think that's undoubtedly. And

Uh, you know, I don't tell people who to vote for, but uh of the parties that are planning or saying they will address the key issues as I see them, reform's the only one that's really credibly promising to do anything about it. Um so that's great. But my big worry is you you're simultaneously trying to deal with two very un

The the portions of the reform coalition are very good for opposition because there's a shared sense of anger with the political elites. And so you can say there's the that the Thatcherite Faragian wing, if you like, low tax, pro business, all of that great stuff. And it shares a commonality with the Red Wall Wing, which is they're against mass immigration and so on. parts of the party and the base.

don't really agree about economic policy at all. One wants low taxes, uh allowing business to flourish. The other one wants a lot of redistribution and a lot of welfare and so on. My uh my argument would be maybe correct me on this if you disagree. So how are you going to simultaneously stimulate growth and also continue the levels of welfare spending that are just catastrophic? You'll be familiar with the statistic that m Angela Merkel raised in twenty eleven.

uh the Europe, including Britain, is twelve percent of the world's population, twenty five percent GDP and fifty percent of welfare spending. So how are you gonna appease those people and just make that work? Yes. You see, I d I don't think that's a fair analysis of the situation. Let me explain. You know, the people that I represent in North Nottinghamshire.

Uh are not wealthy people. It's um it's a town where thousands of people go to work every day in distribution centres, food processing factories. Doing tough jobs, frankly. And m my near neighbor is Lee Anderson, who represents a not dissimilar town. Sure. And the people that reform are attracting, and we hope to attract more of in the years ahead, are not people who are scrounging. They are the people who getting up at seven o'clock in the morning to

Do the score run, then go to work in the distribution. Hold on. No, no, but more than half the country takes more in benefits. than they put in in taxes, right? Half the country. I'm not saying anyone is scrounging. No, no, but but but I think point point one is to say that reform is not a part of what Reform is a part of working people. And that that is what it's going to be in the years ahead. And the types of people that I represent are the people who are most vociferous. in demanding.

sensible reforms to the welfare system. Because they don't want people to be getting the motorbility Mercedes in the dri and seeing that parked on the drive next to them when, you know, for ADHD or whatever. bollocks is behind it. And, you know, they they want of course they want a safety net and they know that life can be tough. Yeah. And if something God forbid happens to you, you know, if you don't have savings

um, as most people don't. Y y you want the state to be able to have you back. But those people are not looking for reform to be creating you know, a ballooning welfare budget. And so Revol already has set out welfare reforms. And it will do more in the years ahead. And I don't think that is discordant. I think that the very people who are hardest up, but who are in work and doing the right things are the people who care most about that as a matter of fundamental fairness.

Second thing I'd say is that reform will have a distinct economic policy to the Conservative Party. It feels to me as if the Conservative Party today is still reliving a fantasy of the Thatcher era and is sort of cosplaying Margaret Thatcher. And I don't really mean that as in as in as as disparaging a manner as it as it sounds, because like anybody else, I on the right, I admire Margaret Thatcher and I grew up in the eighties and the nineties and

it was the radical changes that she made to the country and the fact that it it arrested decline that in many respects persuaded me to become a conservative. But she was right for that moment. And the main lesson we should draw from Margaret Thatcher was she saw a country in decline, was willing to bring forward serious reforms. particularly supply side reforms, which are always the hardest things to do in practice rather than just reaching for the easy lever of

cutting taxes or spending money. Um and we should try and do the same thing for our era. But there will be different solutions. And what will they be? Well, I mean let me give you an example. I i if you said in the eighties or the nineties that we should consider nationalizing or part nationalizing steel, People on the right would have said, Absolutely not, we're fighting. That's exactly what we're we're fighting against. If you'd asked me.

fifteen or twenty years ago, whether or not it would be sensible for the British state judiciously to take a strategic stake in a marquee business, like say Rolls Royce. if it gave them the balance sheet to be able to go and do something that's very important for the country, like build small nuclear reactors. I probably would have said that's not a sensible thing to do because I didn't want to see

industrial policy as it had become a dirty word in the seventies, recreated. But the economy today is different. You know, we now face a world in which defence

and security is very clearly linked to the economy. And with rising authoritarian states like China, it does not make sense for us to lose. our domestic steel industry or our, you know, chemicals and fertilizer and car manufacturing to China and leave us so exposed. And so there are arguments for pursuing a degree of renationalisation.

reindustrialization, sorry. And and we've also seen the fallacy of globalization, where, you know, there was a belief when I was growing up that you could just have all your manufacturing made in China or India or Indonesia or wherever it was, and the UK could still be an i a highly innovative economy. uh all the smart people would be here manufacturing, you know, designing things, but all of the manufacturing would happen elsewhere. You know, if you listen to

someone like James Dyson, who was on the radio over Christmas, explaining ki the decisions that he's made with his business. He'd say that doesn't that's been proven to be wrong. The two do go together, at least to some degree. And if you have no manufacturing in the UK

Don't be surprised if you also don't have the design, the engineering, the technological advance and all the jobs and the value add that comes with that. And so we need to bring as much of that back to the UK and make things there, create things. have the innovation happening here in the UK. And so the point I'm making is that y you have to move with the times and have an economic policy that suits

the politics and the economics of today. And that will not simply be reheating that truism and the ideas that

made a lot of sense to Britain in the nineteen eighties. And to some people that might seem a little discordant, that you might be setting out uh for very free market policies in some respects like deregulation, trying to find ways to lower taxes, trying to make the UK as investable a proposition as possible, get some of those wealthy investors back into the country who've been lost as a result of changes to non-DOMs and so on.

Whilst at the same time saying there are some strategic industries we want to support. Um, there are maybe some businesses we want to even take a stake in. We do care about regional inequality in the country,'cause we don't want to see

towns in places like the Midlands of the North just left to, you know, lose jobs and investment as they have done now for generations and do what Boris Johnson set out to do, but was never delivered on leveling up or regional policy, however you want to describe it. Rwy'n credu i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd. But we'll be coherent. I don't think it's an intellectually incoherent argument. No, I agree.

industrial electricity prices in in the developed world to producing lots and lots of cheap, reliable energy, which means You just have to say net zero in the bin, day one, we're gonna make energy in Britain, we're gonna produce our gas, etcetera. Is that the plan? Yes. Yes. So the reforms policy, which I've advocated for some time as well, is The aim of British energy policy is energy abundance. Let's go for cheap and reliable energy.

And we'll do that however we can. If there's treasure in the ground or uh you know in our seas we should make use of it. So as much as we can get from North Sea oil and gas, let's use it. You know, if there is fracking that can be done um in a way where there's commercial interest and it's safe. We should do so. we should be honest enough to say that gas is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

And yeah, there will also be a role for renewables like offshore wind and so on, but it won't be massively subsidised to the detriment of other things. and we should be going for broke on small nuclear reactors. And that means completely changing the planning system. And so we tried to do what other countries have done elsewhere in the world, like South Korea.

here so that we can build them as fast as possible. And that will be the bedrock of our economic policy. Cause you know, there's not there aren't that many levers that government can pull to get economic growth going again. It can change the planning system so you can get the country building again. It can change our education and skills policy. And so we send less young people to university and more put through the route of genuine skills for apprenticeship.

But the most important of all will be having a different. policy where we basically just got to do everything that is necessary to lower energy prices for consumers. and for energy intensive industries. And although there's been a lot of deindustrialization, there's still almost two million jobs in the country in energy intensive industries. And those jobs will be lost. I mean they will they will go in the next ten or fifteen years and they're good jobs, mostly outside of

the South East, which are incredibly important to communities as well as to our national interest, and we have to save those jobs. Let me ask one question before Francis takes over again. Um There is one thing that's happening right now. We saw it at Davos, and we see it with the new administration. It's not that new anymore. It's been a year in. There is a global realignment.

And i in light of the critical comments that President Trump made about Europe, which personally I thought you know, th there was some you know, the his comments about NATO troops, etcetera, I'm glad he walked those back'cause they were disrespectful and wrong. But in the broad sweep of his analysis, which is Europe is committing cultural, economic and industrial suicide and is no longer a useful ally to the United States.

Yeah, I mean, anyone looking at things objectively has to acknowledge that there's a very large kernel of truth in that critique, right? And that b has produced a sort of, Oh, we're so offended, we'll go and cozy up to China response from the Mark Carnis and frankly the Keirstarmers of the world.

My view is we should be going it's a fair critique, we're gonna make ourselves strong again. And of course the United States is our natural alliance to pursue with the most vigor. Is that your position at reform? It is. It is. No, I totally agree. I mean it

To to to your opening comment, absolutely Trump was wrong to suggest that British troops didn't play a a decisive in and incredibly dangerous role in in recent conflicts. So that was offensive and and wrong. I'm pleased that he's walked back. Those comments to an extent. But the broader critique I have a lot of sympathy with, I mean, ha has Europe made a series of catastrophic mistakes over the course of the last thirty years in terms of mass migration, its energy policy, um

the way it's denigrated, its history and uh its cultural inheritance. Yes, absolutely. Is it in a very perilous position? Now, I d I do think it is, yeah, because mass migration is changing uh communities, some European towns and cities are frankly unrecognizable from where they were ten or twenty years ago. Some of that is irreversible in other countries. there may be strategies that could be deployed to uh allow integration or a degree of it, but very difficult in some places.

You know, its energy policy has been so poor that It's not just the UK that is deindustrializing, but Germany and Italy and other countries that had a much bigger industrial base within living memory. It doesn't have the critical minerals and the energy resources that some other parts of the world have and so yeah and then it's got obviously terrible demographics as well, where everything is going in in the wrong direction. So it it does feel that Europe is in a moment of of peril.

we should wake up to that and do something about it and I I think we we have the analysis of what needs to be done. We just gotta get on and do it. Um I don't think you go and cosy up to China or authoritarian states. I mean there's a argument to do some business with them, of course. You know, that doesn't mean allowing Chinese embassies to be created or giving away the Chagos Islands or allowing our universities to be bought out by Chinese interests.

It feels like Starmer is making exactly the same mistake that The Cameron, Osborne. government did back in the twenty tens in believing that in the short term pursuit of economic growth, you can go to China and secure investment. Except it's a worse mistake to make now,'cause at least back then, maybe it was naive, but at least back then, some people felt that openness would lead in the long run to political change in China. Now we can see that isn't going to happen, or at least not

in the foreseeable future. And so it's a particularly naive thing to do now, to go and sell yourself out to China. Um and I and I also don't think that's really what China responds to. I mean, China like most authoritarian states does respond to strength as well. So prostrating yourself in front of Xi Jinping is unlikely to lead to the kind of dividends that Keir Starmer is hoping for.

Robert, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Final question is always the same. What's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should? Before Robert answers the final question, at the end of the interview, make sure you go to triggerpod.co.uk where you get to see him answer your question.

What do you think you could do differently with reform that you don't think would work in the Conservatives? How would you deal with the blob and how much could you reduce the civil service personnel by? Should right-wing parties be doing more to speak about the dangers of the far left? Why do you think the far left are not spoken about?

What do you think you bring to reform that you think is missing from the party? Well, one of the things that I've been reading about a lot recently to the extent that uh you can is the state of our nuclear deterrence. And there's been a s a few whistleblowers, there's been some commentary online and a couple of news stories. But I'm amazed that Parliament is not talking about this. It feels that our nuclear deterrent, which is so integral to our security, is in a terrible state right now.

programs to improve it are massively over budget, massively delayed. You've got very brave people who are out at sea in submarines, on very, very long extended missions. And there's a genuine risk that it doesn't work at all.

Yet no one is prepared to talk about this in Parliament. Now of course there are some things I'm not expecting the that all of our top secrets are laid bare in the House of Commons. Uh although somebody did once say to me that the best place to tell a secret is in the House of Commons. But it feels like this is exactly the sort of example, something where trivia is debated in parliament, but something that's incredibly important.

And is at the bedrock of our s national security and the subject of billions of pounds of our defence budget is barely spoken about. Robert, thanks for coming on. We're going to head over to Substack where our supporters get to ask you their questions. So head on over there now at triggerpod.co.uk.

You were immigration minister when the use of hotels or asylum seekers exploded. Do you accept responsibility? Did you push back against it at the time or did you go along with it? What would you do differently going forward?