Building Your Professional Network for Young Lawyers

spk_0:   0:01
Hello and welcome to the Feldman Shepherd Young lawyers, our with J. P. And Bethany. I'm Bethany. Nicotine go. I'm j p found us. This podcast covers are true stories and experiences as young lawyers and offers advice, tips and strategies that we hope will help you embark upon this exciting time in your career. Thank you guys so much for joining us today.

spk_2:   0:21
We're really excited. Um, because being a skillful attorney is only half of the formula to success in our practice, the other half being building a client base and networking. Today, Bethany and I will be talking about some of the tips and tricks that we've learned along the way in what can often be, um, a little bit of an uncomfortable scenario like building a client base, building a referral network, getting out there and talking to folks. So today it will just be Bethany and I, in part, one of this podcast on networking and Part two will have some special guests for you folks to talk about helping lawyers cultivate their careers and cultivate their professional networks.

spk_1:   1:01
Cool. So let's jump right in. Um, let's take it back to law school. Pretty sure There are so many great stories about that. Um, you starting? You know, law career. You know, you want to be a lawyer. Um, at what point in time did you actually realize that? You know, I do need to meet people.

spk_2:   1:24
Um, yeah, yeah, I'll start. Since I'm considerably closer to lost on, I'm sure I can remember.

spk_0:   1:31
I think I think I I think that,

spk_2:   1:35
um, probably it was right around. My 2nd may be the beginning of my third year when I realized that I wanted to be a trial attorney. But it became more and more clear to me that that was really sort of my only option because of II pigeonholed myself into wanting to be in either the district attorney's office of the Public Defender's office. And I had not spent any time outside of my comfort zone. I'd made friends in law school, had made friends in those internships, but I hadn't pushed myself outside of that comfort zone, So I hadn't met people really who were doing internships at a big law. Firms are doing more diverse at a practice like immigration, that kind of thing that I had sort of tangential interests in. But I just hadn't really pushed myself, and it took me a while. I mean, I don't know about you but anybody. Certainly. I wasn't great at getting out there and meeting people. Um, my first couple of years. How did you How did you build soldier? You're networking base.

spk_1:   2:34
I'm very bare embarrassed to say that I certainly never realized during law school that networking is so important. And that's one of the first things that I would recommend to a young attorney in law school that, um wow. Doing well and getting good grades and achieving success in law School's important when it comes to getting jobs. It's really about making connections and knowing people. So throughout Wall School I did not connect with that many people. I was very focused on doing well, and the internships that I had in the opportunities that I had were not through networking. They were through on campus interviews or interviews that I responded to online, and I certainly think now that I would have had a leg up had I taken the time to connect with more people and had I going to events and connected with people and what a lot of loss turns don't understand is that you can't be so focused on the end result. You can't be so, um, results oriented. You can't be driven solely to get a job. You have toe put that aside and just worry about making the connections. So that's something that I didn't do that I regret doing. And I certainly look at a lot of lawyers now who, Our of my year or even more experienced, who get a lot of referrals from people they did know in law school. So don't be so results driven. Just look about connecting with people through events and any type of opportunity that you have.

spk_2:   4:09
Yeah, I was I would add on to that down that I'm thinking about it because we, um, was recently in front of some law students talking about not this subject, but about being a young lawyer. And it occurs to me that I gave them some advice that I'll repeat here it Any lawsuits were listening. I was still kind of in a frame of mind. Um, when I came in tow law school of like college and high school, it was still like The most natural thing to do is to find a group of friends in your section or whatever, and like that becomes your click. And that's who you hang out with that. So you go to the bar with that's you study with that's you do all your stuff with and like, that's the most. Everyone feels that way. Everyone feels that pressure and so everyone kind of like self segregates and looking back like I look around now with the Philadelphia legal landscape in so many people who I had such a great opportunity to develop a relationship with. If I had been committed to that aspect of looking forward and realizing that's what I would need in my practice. There's so many people out there doing diverse, interesting, really high level work. Um, I just missed. I mean, now is a great time still to reach out and reconnect. But I just missed a great opportunity if I just would've stepped outside of sort of that psychology mentality and, you know, really considered that. Hey, this is this is a career that I'm starting here and I need to invest in the resource that I have most available to me, which is 250 other students who are going through the same thing that I am on the same campus. Just get outside your comfort zone, go meet them.

spk_0:   5:38
So let's talk a

spk_1:   5:39
little bit about professional organizations. Um, you know, at the law school level on throughout your career, you know, can you actually gave give some suggestions. I assume you know how important it is to join them, which are the top five for you. Top 23 locally. Nationally, if your parts of any of them and how they actually help you throughout your career.

spk_2:   6:04
Yeah, um, I have always been a little bit more focused regionally and locally. There are so many good national our associations. But I just I find that they, especially the worthy ones, takes so much time and so much effort that it's hard to be really broad in the groups that you join. Um, you know, for me, I'm really involved in the Hispanic Bar Association of Pennsylvania. Those air, like some of my closest friends, people I consider family. I love them all and support them all. And and it's a great group of people. Um So I would say that if there is a bar, obviously if you are a divorce or of minority hire, or if there's a bar that makes sense for you, given your cultural background or your upbringing, you know that's that's an easy investment,

spk_1:   6:48
not a bar that serves drinks.

spk_0:   6:49
Thought that that's

spk_1:   6:53
what you were

spk_0:   6:53
talking about. Me, too. I'm like Harlan. They're why are

spk_2:   6:58
there bars that serve drinks

spk_0:   7:00
some days? Ah, bar

spk_2:   7:02
association. Then then certainly that's that's worthy of your time. And also, basically, all of those bar associations here in Philadelphia have listservs and, um, free programming specifically targeted towards law students and developing future membership. So that's an easy one to take. And then, for me, sort of a natural overlap. That was, I was always interested in service. I was C. L s Community Legal Service is here in Philadelphia is where I started doing my first internship, and that was an easy sort of, um, young, or to get involved in a number of others that that we could talk a little bit more about. But that's sort of the easy stuff coming out of the gate that I would recommend you get involved in,

spk_1:   7:45
I think in terms of your involvement in associations before we get into the details of what I've been involved with. But I think it's important that you have to focus is when you are looking to get involved in something. First of all, for me, I enjoy networking. It's something that I've learned toe like. And I think for a young attorney, when you spend so much time working, you need an outlet. So for me, networking is announced an outlet. It's something enjoyable. So when I'm looking to get involved in something, I want to make sure one. It's something that I'm going to enjoy and have a good time. It's something I can get away from the office and forget about the brief that I'm working on or or anything else. But Number two. It's something that's gonna benefit me in some fashion. It's gonna improve my skills. It's going to potentially bring in business. So those were the things I look for before I commit myself to getting involved in an organization. So for me, number one is felt off a trial lawyers. It's a plaintiff trial lawyer organization and I've been involved for two reasons. One, I find it very enjoyable. The people are great. They have you really have an opportunity to interact with top caliber attorneys from Philadelphia, which is an opportunity that you don't usually get, so that that's one of the organizations. Number two. I've recently become involved in the Philadelphia Bar Association, and for me, the reason in doing so is I think I want to, um, you know, improve the policies of the Philadelphia Bar Association, work on charitable projects through the bar association and generally helped to benefit the profession. And I think also the bar association is helpful because, unlike filled off your trial lawyers who are essentially our competition and a lot of respects, Philadelphia Bar Association does not have many plaintiffs attorneys. So that's an evaluation that consideration that

spk_0:   9:35
I took before I

spk_1:   9:36
got involved. So those air to professional organizations I've been involved with, I've been peripherally involved in the BRANDEIS Law Society, which is the Jewish Law Society. And you know, there are other organizations that I've been involved with that are not necessarily legal professional organizations, but American Jewish Committee I've been very involved with. I'm a fan of that organization and also Philadelphia v. I P, which is a pro bono organization, and

spk_0:   10:03
we talk

spk_1:   10:04
about how important it is to actually get involved at a litter ship level. I feel like the both of you have been actively off taking leadership roles at some of these organizations. You know, the voting to time billable hours versus hours dedicated to to serve in these, um, different places. You know how important it is to actually dedicate the time to do that. It's certainly difficult. And you have to make an evaluation as a young attorney as to whether it's something that is going to be accepted in your own law firm. Is it something that the leadership is going to be supportive of? We're not supportive of because as a young attorney, Ah, lot of firms take the position that your job is to be in the office working. So if you make an evaluation of that and that's a determination that your firm is not interested in you doing that, then certainly you should consider not doing that. But leadership roles are important because it gives you sort of kind of name notoriety. People know who you are, and that's what this business is about. It's really at the end of the day, just getting your name out there. So leadership opportunities give you an opportunity to have your name on e mails and publications and, you know, presenting a different events. So I think that it is important for you to get yourself out there and it gives you more visibility within the legal community. Do you have? Yeah,

spk_2:   11:28
for sure. For me. So that aspect of my involvement in some of the groups that are involved with has been enriching, um, for the reasons that Bethany just mentioned for sure, but also because, you know, I think that to some extent, if you care about a thing, you have an obligation to ensure that it is functioning well, that you're making advancements for the group and that you are sort of taking what the folks who went before you did and moving the ball along, and to some extent I mean, in a lot of these organizations, they're they're thirsty. For young leaders, they're thirsty toe sort of pass on the lessons and to ensure that whatever achievements have been made are protected and groan and that's been sort of an important part of I mean, obviously the P. T. L. A and P A. J. R are our landmark organizations with tremendous past leaders, tremendous current leaders and tremendous future leaders, I'm sure, but that's something that we hear a lot from those folks is it's important that young lawyers get involved and to sort of take responsibility for continued success not only of the membership of those groups but also the people that they represent. I mean, it's important that you know all of the political sort of maneuvering that pizza L. A. Does that p a J does. It's important not only because it protects the practice and you know the work that we do is important, but it also continues to keep access to justice open for our clients who rely on that so that part of it's enriching personally and professionally. And it's just, you know, it's the kind of thing where if you get involved in a group, it's not. It's not as if you're gonna have, ah, dearth of opportunity to advance yourself, if that's what you want to do. If you're the kind of person who can commit the time and the confidence to do it. Then you'll have those opportunities if you want.

spk_1:   13:13
So let's talk about time invested in in these sorts of, um, endeavors. So do you, um, have a set of hours weekly hours you devote towards, you know, networking, engaging in different event. And if so, you know, how have you been able to manage? You know, the work versus the time to meet people, Um, in terms off, weighing in, um, on a weekly basis,

spk_2:   13:48
Um, for me. So I've always been really helpful to have Bethany come board here at the firm because she's so

spk_0:   13:54
active. Yeah. Oh, my God, it's incredible. And another

spk_2:   13:58
shout out. I know that we're talking about leadership before Bethany. Just one big elections t join.

spk_0:   14:04
Just bag. Just just it could not

spk_2:   14:10
be happier about that future Chancellor. The bar. No question about that. Um, but it No, it's it's It's tough in terms of the time commitment, but having someone else in the shop who is committed to being out there committed to doing things as much as practical, you know as much as possible. It's helpful to kind of keep the fire lit like I'm always thinking, you know, Can we be doing Maur to ensure that we as a firmer out there, meeting people and making a good impression? So that part's helpful? And then, you know, the rest of it is just kind of, um, you know, everybody works a lot, and it's hard. Thio ensure that you're not only fully committed to what you're doing professionally, but also taking care of yourself personally. And so I think, having like a sharp distinction and having someone else in your life, a partner who can say, like, this is too much. You're going like you can't do every single night at a networking event. You can't have a lunch every single day is really helpful. So for me, I've been really blessed that that's kind of that's had its own natural balance. If it was up to me, I'd be at, like in between friends and and now working events, that kind stuff. I just be out all the time, and that's like not that's no longer possible in my life, So that's been a blessing.

spk_0:   15:20
Newly married,

spk_1:   15:24
I think that if you want Thio, eat it a successful attorney and you also want to be a successful business generator. You cannot have the attitude that I'm going to do everything in 9 to 5. You have to realize that there's gonna be a balance and you're gonna have to spend more time in the office, whether it be early in the morning, late at night on the weekends to compensate for those breakfast meetings. There's lunch meetings, those drinks, those after work events where you end up leaving the office at five o'clock. So for me, it's really having a schedule on a plan that recognizes that there are times when amount from the office for various networking events, and I'm gonna have to make up for that time. You cannot expect to get all your work done and meet everyone's expectations and fulfill your responsibilities if you are taking working time and then gearing it toward networking time. For me, networking time is something that I almost considered to be personal in nature. I don't consider it while it it benefits the firm, and while at the end of the day it's part of my job, my job is to do work. So the way I look at it is that it's an added bonus. It's something that I could do to get away from work. It's an outlet, but I'm gonna have to make up that time some way or another because I'm not sitting at my desk doing work.

spk_2:   16:47
I commend you. There's no way that I could. I would have a mental breakdown in almost no time because it's like it's it's enjoyable and it's fun to like, go meet people, do all that stuff. But man, that's Ah, that's a heavy burden that you put on yourself to, like be out there doing this stuff all the time and that doesn't count it all. So you really do You partition in your mind like this does not count as work. This isn't my work life. That's my personal life.

spk_0:   17:10
Absolutely, because I enjoy

spk_1:   17:11
it. I enjoy going out meeting people, having a glass of wine. It's not something that I view as work at all, and I certainly understand that other people cannot do that. It's something they don't enjoy. They don't like going to meet with strangers, and certainly I felt that way at the beginning. But over time it's been a complete outlet for May. It's a way that I relax. It's a way that I get away from the stresses of work. So I completely separate them in my mind in terms of personal time. Networking time, work time.

spk_2:   17:49
All right, well, there you go. That's Ah to to tax to tax on how to handle it.

spk_1:   17:54
Would you say you spend, Let's say, 23 hours a week. Can you give me *** an estimated amount of time? I mean, I'm trying to pull some tips for people in terms of Woods. Sure, it really varies from week to week. There are certainly weeks where all have three lunches and an event, and it gets a little bit out of control where I'm spending, you know, five or six hours networking. Or it could be this week. We have a lot of things going on, and maybe I'm only spending two or three hours networking, so it really depends on the weak the season, what's going on. But for me, I always keep sight of what are the what's coming up in the next few weeks. What's going on and when, you know I reach out to someone because part of my networking is constantly reaching out to people and saying, Do you want to have breakfast? You wanna have lunch, you want to get drinks? So when I'm doing that, I'm scheduling it in a manner where I'm not overloading myself where I say, Okay, well, I already have to. Events that we grow already have three meetings that week, so let's push it off to the next week. So it's really about planning and making sure that your schedule is not getting out of control so that you're not over committing yourself. Okay, so this

spk_0:   19:07
talk

spk_1:   19:07
about being intentional about types of events you actually pick and choose to go to Why, um and why is so important to actually have an a strategic plan before attending anything and everything? You're invited to this. You'll never

spk_0:   19:24
be in the office. If that's the case, you know, you

spk_1:   19:26
get any work done.

spk_2:   19:27
Um, so I and I think maybe the right way to think about this going forward is that like, I I feel that I dislike networking events, and Bethany likes them. So if you probably if you listen to

spk_0:   19:40
this great continent, fall into one of

spk_2:   19:43
those too buckets. I think you have todo. So for me, I'm someone who genuinely just dislikes going, and I think that it's only because because it feels so. It feels so. It not only forced, but to some degree there's like I've always come into it with a mindset that, like All right, well, everybody's here. Everyone's having the same.

spk_1:   20:04
It's not natural

spk_2:   20:04
to minute conversation. It's not. There's no genuineness to this interaction. And I'm I'm a outside of work, very pro social person. Enjoy. And I'm energized by my relationships with friends and family and loved ones. So, like when I come in tow, Ah, setting like a networking event. My I'm off on the I immediately come into it with the thought that, like All right, everyone here is being fake. Everyone here is like having the same 1 to 2

spk_0:   20:27
minute conversation. Well, if the if part

spk_1:   20:30
of it, if part of what we're

spk_2:   20:31
trying to do here, it's not like I think that probably there's. There's a number of people who feel the same way, particularly young lawyers like I remember feeling this way, certainly every time I would go to a networking event as a first or second or third year lawyer because it was you meet somebody. Hey, how are you? What do you do? Um, tell me about your practice. Great. You enjoy it. Good. Very nice to meet you on to the next person. And there was something that was, like, not totally genuine about those sort of interactions that I always struggled toe like I can't get outside my own head. I'm always thinking like they're thinking this to like, the person I'm talking to is having the same thought process. So we're both kind of like faking each other.

spk_1:   21:09
That's what I thought when I met you.

spk_0:   21:11
Yeah, uh, s o.

spk_2:   21:14
But to the point, my point has been like, if I could get myself out of that space in my head and beauty and the only reason that I ever have any sort of success or fun and networking offenses because I'm able to do that and say what I'm gonna I'm actually going to have genuine try and have a genuine conversation here and get to know, like, a smaller number of people, but in a genuine sort of deeper way, and that will be enriching for me and then I can just kind of let go. In addition to, like, a nice base of, like, one or two drinks, I'll be it's Ah, it's much easier to sort of have a conversation when you, when you have a commitment actually building a relationship with somebody, as opposed to circulating around the room as much as possible to meet as many people as possible, which I'm just like not that good at fate. I'm not good at faking that

spk_1:   21:59
my first suggestion was gonna be Have you tried to mix alcohol into Think for me? I certainly had that attitude that you have when I was starting out. And absolutely there are times when I goto event and I get there and I say, Oh, God, I don't know a certain a single person here. I don't want to talk to any of these people. Why am I here? Certainly that happens to me. But for me, when I developed the attitude that networking is not about instant gratification, I felt better about it. I am not when I go into a room when I meet people, I am not thinking I'm here to get business. I'm here to get referrals. I've taken that pressure off myself. My goal is to get out there, meet people, get my name out, have nice conversations and enjoy myself, have a glass of wine, laugh, have a good time. And I'm able to do that through networking and through networking in Philadelphia. In the legal community, I've somehow met some of my closest friends. So I think a lot of young lawyers go into networking with the purpose of I have to get business. I need to get something out of this. And if you take that off of yourself, at least for me, it makes the process more enjoyable. And the

spk_0:   23:19
more you do

spk_1:   23:20
it, the more you become a custom of talking to people that you don't know. And it's funny. I mean, I had a lunch recently where it was an impossible conversation. It was one our oven impossible conversation, because the more you learn to network and the more you get out there, the more you learn how to talkto anyone. You know, I can have a one hour conversation with anyone, but

spk_0:   23:42
still you're

spk_1:   23:42
gonna come across those people where you're like, Oh my God, this lunch is like pulling teeth, but I think the more you do it, the more you get out there, the more you don't focus on your end result. Um, the more it's gonna bet benefit you now, going back to the point of being strategic. I think it's very difficult in terms of what J. P and I do in terms of plaintiffs work. It's hard to be strategic. It's hard to know where is your next case gonna come from? So I've evaluated who are my referral sources who sends me the most cases, what types of events are they involved with? And I target those types of individuals. But as someone who enjoys networking, I also go to events where I know no business is ever gonna come out of this. So you have to kind of balance that and determine what are your goals. How much time do you want a point put toward this and come up with a plan of action?

spk_2:   24:34
Yeah, so I totally agree with that. I think that, um if you I think we get to the same place by different by different paths like I the most rewarding parts of the networking experience for me have just happened to coincide with the professional networks that I guess our would help someone in plaintiffs practice developer develop a referral base over time. But it just makes you know the practice in a small legal market like Philadelphia, so much more enjoyable when you when there are people that you look forward to seeing that you enjoy being around that you connect with, um and I've certainly met most of those people through the various organizations that I'm involved in, and often I guess, through the networking events that you kind of like feel compelled to go to. For whatever reason. I know that Bethany enjoys them. Not everyone enjoys going to them, but they can be rewarding if you keep an open mind and either, you know, concentrate on having it on enriching experience with someone or, you know, don't focus on what you're getting out of it. I think both of those good mental sort of places to be in when you attack it

spk_1:   25:41
and don't focus on your competition, either. I know that when you and I go to a lot of these networking events, there are lawyers there that um, we compete against for cases every day. And I would tell people don't focus on that. Be friends with those people. Um, there are benefits to that and you shouldn't be so caught up on Are they getting cases from this person? I'm not getting cases from this person. You know, they're doing better than me. I'm not doing better than them, you know. Don't focus on that. Don't focus on the end result. Focus on making meaningful connections where people like you. That's what's important.

spk_2:   26:18
That whole comparative analysis is bunk in life, too. Like I hate that, the whole idea that Oh, man, you know, I would be so much happier if I just had X, Y and Z or like, I just I can see it across the street. This person is like doing this and succeeding in this way. And if there was just a way for me to get that house or whatever it is that thing that they have, like, I'm gonna I'm gonna be so happy and it's just not it's never been true. It's not true. Um, and I think that's probably true as well in our practice. That's why it's so easy, really to be friendly with competition. I think especially for plaintiffs, lawyers, you know, the rising tide does lift all ships like it's great when somebody gets a big result or a big verdict because, you know, that's good for the practice. That's good for their client. They made a wonderful on someone's life. Um, and I think it really says a lot about the standard of plaintiffs practice here in Pennsylvania.

spk_0:   27:15
So I want to

spk_1:   27:16
talk a little bit about, you know, going back Thio. You know, walking in a room and not knowing anyone right goals from right out of law school to at any stage in your career, you know, you were bound to walk into a some sort of event at some point where it's completely outside of your comfort zone. So, uh, number one, I think in my experience, the industry as a whole, it's, I would say 98% of attorneys are introverts in a sentence where you know their their comfort zone AIDS courtroom. It's what they dio outside of that. It's like OK, and then I have to walk in there and do what you know. So how do you actually come out of that? How do you actually get comfortable? I know it takes time, but you walk in in a room for the first time. What would you do? Like what can you advise people to? D'oh. Well, first of all, that is definitely not a description of may,

spk_0:   28:12
certainly a description of May. But if you find yourself

spk_1:   28:18
walking into a room and you're terrified and you don't know anyone, look around and figure out who's the second most terrified person in the room who doesn't want to be there and go talk to that person. Inevitably, there's someone standing in the corner that's

spk_0:   28:33
very wonderfully well being. That's very lonely looking. That is very

spk_1:   28:38
easy to approach and for you to go to talk Thio. And then if there's nobody like that, if

spk_0:   28:44
I see

spk_1:   28:44
two people talking and I'm by myself, I have no problem kind of scooting over and introducing myself and involving myself in that conversation. So after I go to the bar and get myself a drink, I would do those

spk_2:   28:58
you bludgeon your master of the

spk_0:   29:00
budget. I can I

spk_2:   29:03
make this circle of square that kind of thing?

spk_0:   29:05
Yes, Yeah, I like very much. So

spk_2:   29:08
yeah, I would say good for me. It's Don Julio, just one

spk_0:   29:11
rocks and I'm like, in a good place. I find his conversational, whatever that's like. That's a conversational I'll call for me, I can tell you so here that

spk_2:   29:22
So the tips and tricks portion of the podcast, these air tips and tricks that I've heard from others that I do not employ. I think they're probably helpful for some people, I don't know, but they do make sense to me and on an intuitive level here in theory, right? So here's Here's a couple one

spk_0:   29:38
ever practice. So

spk_2:   29:41
one is on. I like this one because it's like, Ah, game theory, math kind of math, like you go in there with seven business cards or 10 business cards or whatever, and then when you leave, make sure you have none of the business cards in your pocket. Don't allow yourself to leave the networking event until you've handed out each one of those business cards and, like don't cheat in hand. 10 to 1 person. That's a good way. I think I've never tried it, but that sounds like a good way to make sure that you have that number of conversations. If you really have to force yourself, just circulate through a crowd of people. Another one is and this happens like all the time you get there. And there is that person that you know or that you came with or that whatever. And then you're glued to that individual for the entire time that you're there, because you're in your safe space, in the tree, to trust and like, nobody can hurt you up there Terrible, right? And you just have to force yourself to get out of that. That's like there's gotta be like a like a countdown like this was good. E have used this opportunity to survey the room, and I'm just gonna take a leap and walk across and just, like, look, somebody the eye and say hello. Um, and you're not You're not gonna die. I've never heard one story of a person ending up

spk_0:   30:46
dead, just like going

spk_2:   30:48
to another dime. Death by network. So it'll be. It'll be totally fine. It's not that scary. Once you once you commit to it and you and genuinely like the other non Bethany's who were there. The 90 the other 98% of people are also, like, not like is now wearing event is, like, kind of brutal. So just go talk to him, and it will be fine.

spk_1:   31:08
So what? One comment on your record? You're in theory, but not in practice. Record

spk_0:   31:14
put in practice? No, Um, I have not. But with regard

spk_1:   31:18
to the business cards, I'm okay with what you're saying. 7 to 10 business cards. Sounds like a good plan.

spk_0:   31:24
I'm the messenger. My plan. But I've always been

spk_1:   31:28
in advance. There's always one jerk who

spk_0:   31:30
has, like, 30 business cards. He doesn't even shake your hand. Give you his name. High moving. Yeah. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Like that, It's not affecting your chickens. I'm not. Don't take in

spk_2:   31:44
one of those $1 bill guns from, like, the strip club And, like, shoot out your card to a bunch of people. I'm saying take seven in there and have 72 minute conversations and hand that person your business.

spk_1:   31:55
I'm just making sure that that's not what you're

spk_0:   32:00
No, no, no.

spk_2:   32:01
That's carried to the extreme. You can make anything sound ridiculous, you know?

spk_1:   32:03
OK, on what one other follow up If if I may, with regard to the business cards, when you're handing out the seven business cards and you say and you go home and your pocket is empty, you should have seven other people's business cards in your pocket because and I know you're laughing at me. But for me, in

spk_0:   32:19
a park 2% a new important part of networking

spk_1:   32:23
is follow up. It's absolutely meaningless. How many times how many people go to events. They get business cards, they throw him in a drawer and they never do anything. I always go back to my office, sit at my desk and send follow up e mails. It was nice meeting you. Would you like to have

spk_2:   32:38
a drink? You go back to the office from the networking event and start tapping out e mails to the people. You just

spk_0:   32:43
Well, no, no. I mean, that's that's

spk_2:   32:45
you need a

spk_0:   32:46
nap today about it. I'm sorry. We're actually gonna cover that. I'm a little out of control. I do want to

spk_1:   32:53
go back, Thio comparing yourself, Um and you know, body language is everything. So when you walk into these rooms, um and you know your confidence

spk_0:   33:02
level. It's not.

spk_1:   33:05
You know where it should be. You know, any tips on that? You know, holding your own, not going in with the mindset that it's not that you're better than everybody, but you have your own list off occupants in and accomplishments that are to be proud off. So when you walk in there, don't be the one person that feels too small based on what the room looks like, you know?

spk_2:   33:28
Yeah, I think so. Um, my advice would just be B. It's a B yourself. Like, uh, it's hard. And I think we covered some of this cat in an earlier podcast,

spk_0:   33:40
but I don't know. So, like, I

spk_2:   33:41
can't be like, um, Alan Feldman and Mark Tanner and Dan Wine stalking Carol Jeff. I'll have, like, these gigantic they're like, way better trailers and I am. And they do things in a way that I can't do them so that when I present the case to a jury, I can't be any of those individuals. That's exactly the same thing for going toe networking event or any kind of sort of setting, where the goal is to meet people and talk about your practice and do all these things I can't go in and, like, fake some weird confidence that doesn't really exit. It has to come from a place of, like, I genuinely believe myself to be a relatively nice person who cares about what you have to say. So if I go in with the idea that, like I'm not there to be like a big time pinstripe suit wearing like layer and I just am I interested to meet you in here about what your story is and what you do, that it's a lot easier for me to like, not worry about what everybody else is doing and like Oh, man, how cool is that person over there? It just doesn't. It doesn't come into my brain as much.

spk_1:   34:42
A few random comments, Um, number one. A lot of women suffer from something called imposter syndrome. Yes,

spk_0:   34:50
where they have that area. Low self confidence.

spk_2:   34:53
Poor kids at rich schools do as

spk_0:   34:55
well. You guys don't know that that's not yours. A lot of women suffer that, and they

spk_1:   35:05
don't have high confidence in high self esteem, and I think that there's a misperception that for example, people think that I have a lot of self confidence and that I think very highly of myself, and that's something that I've been accused of. But I think it's because I know how to project and exude self confidence. And I think that that's something you can d'oh even if you don't have it. It's a way that you carry yourself. It's a way that you talk to people. You can learn how to presume, exude self confidence. That's number one, number two in my experiences with networking and generating business, even though there are people out there that have big verdicts, have impressive credentials, have a lot of experience. Most of the time I'm referred cases because people know me and they like me. They have a relationship with me. They had a good conversation with me, and they like me as a person. So I think if you remember that that a lot about business. It's not about the results that you've achieved. It's not about the press that you get, but it's about people liking you as a person. Then I think that you can have a lot more self confidence walking into a room and saying It's about making connections with people that are meaningful and having people like me, and that's how I'm going to get results. So going back to that point about women and though no, that whole imposter syndrome, which it's

spk_0:   36:27
such a trendy, um, phrase or a

spk_1:   36:30
word these days returned this days, let's talk about being the on Lee or the few women in the room. When you walk into one of those networking events and being a y enough to

spk_0:   36:44
hold on. Bethany, I'll take this one. Thief floor is yours. I feel like we're in the middle of a therapy session. I feel like that

spk_1:   36:54
happens quite often, given that the industry's male dominated or are area of law. It's male dominated. Can you talk a little bit about that? Have you experienced that? Have. How've you Sure it's something I experienced all the time. For me, it's not something that bothers me because diversity is good. And when I walk into a room and it's all men and everyone looks the same, eye in my mind say, Oh, people want to talk to me. I look interesting. I'm different. It's a different conversation that they can have its, you know, a younger person, something refreshing, a different perspective. So I never look at it as a negative thing, and I truly think that it's to my benefit. I think that I've built relationships with men and with more seasoned attorneys because they found it refreshing to deal with someone with a different perspective, to deal with someone that's still happy and enthusiastic about being an attorney, someone who likes what they're doing. So I've never looked at it as a disadvantage, and I truly believe that it is an advantage. Yes, certainly. So if

spk_0:   38:01
we go

spk_1:   38:02
into, um, those relationships that you've built over time, you know, how do you foster those relationships? How do you actually keep up? How do you maintain those relationships over time to make sure that you stay top of mind? Um, anything that you can offer tips on that

spk_2:   38:25
I still think about Impossible.

spk_0:   38:27
I repeat that. No, no, it's It's interesting because it's not something I mean, that's something that everyone not it's not very good at their profession

spk_2:   38:36
know that imposter syndrome applies to minorities in and white dominated professional fields. It applies to scholarship students who had a wonderful schools. So many different types of people feel imposter syndrome and, like the proof ends up being in the pudding. Just be confident. Be hardworking. Be a good lawyer, be a good person, and it all ends up shaking out in the end, I think, and the MBE, or at least in my experience, the more detrimental aspect of imposter syndrome, has not been a fear of not being good enough. It's been and anger that it exists, and like a chip on the shoulder about what you need to do tow, make sure that it doesn't happen to somebody else or like to change the thing. And, like, that's a lot of pressure, um, to put on yourself in my experience,

spk_1:   39:19
I mean, at the end of the day's a matter of remaining who you are. Like you said, people actually get back to you because they like the conversation they've had with you. They like you as a person. Whatever the conversation was about, they enjoyed. So its remaining you are at the end of the day, regardless of who's in the room or not, you know,

spk_2:   39:36
right, eso keeping keeping up with, um professional contacts. Um, you know, it becomes easier. The more that you invest personally in your professional contacts, the more that you become friends with those people more that you make an effort. I mean, efforts so important, Like it takes time. All these things take time and they take care. So you just have to, like, take the time to follow along with your your contacts, successes and be available to help when things aren't going well or if they need sort of guidance, or to bounce ideas off you or help with grief or whatever just, you know, take the time to be available and then just like, be friendly, just continue to be friends and make time for each other. And you know it'll work out.

spk_1:   40:19
I think that just like being strategic about who you target, um, for networking. It's important that you be strategic in terms of your follow up with your contacts, and I've been here it Feltman Shepherd for five months now. But before that, I was not here, and I didn't have the amazing marketing support that I do now. So for me, it was important that I had a strategic business plan for not only business generation, but follow up. I can see J. P.

spk_0:   40:49
S already laughing at me. I'm like, Oh, yeah. It'll be totally fine. Just like your friend I have here. The bullet point. I'm very interested in marketing.

spk_2:   41:01
Shadow goes to Chelsea. That's our marketing.

spk_0:   41:03
Thank you. So for me, it's all about

spk_1:   41:06
contact. I truly believe that every time you reach out and connect with the person, it may result in a referral, and I find that it's true. So before I worked here, I had a very strategic plan where I had my own newsletter and I would send out the newsletter four times a year. I also focused on gifts people

spk_0:   41:29
love. This is people love gifts, and they don't have to

spk_1:   41:34
be expensive or complex gifts, but they have to be fun and creative. So if I have a new attorney that sends me a case for the first time, they get a box of peeps. Why

spk_0:   41:43
is that, Bethany? Why don't I get a box

spk_2:   41:44
of people?

spk_1:   41:45
Thank you for sending me your peeps.

spk_2:   41:46
Oh, man.

spk_0:   41:47
So, um, I have no comment. That is brilliant. By the way that it was not my idea, but so, um, I would also everyone sends

spk_1:   42:02
Christmas gifts. I always send thanks giving gifts to my referral sources, thanking them for sending me their cases. I send gifts. July 4th, Um, I've sent all sorts of random holidays that Valentine's Day. I always send something to my referral sources. Some small token with a message thanking them. So

spk_2:   42:21
is your president's day gift.

spk_0:   42:28
I've never done President's Day, but I will think about that and get back to you. But, um, I really believe, for example, every

spk_1:   42:34
time the newsletter went out, I would get calls from people that I hadn't heard from a while. Oh, I have a case for you. Can I send you a client or thank you so much for the gift Or, you know, don't be focused on the thank you's people, Really? Don't say thank you that much, which is kind of sad. But, um, you know when I would run into people in the street? Oh, I really always love getting your gifts. I love getting your packages in the mail. They make me so happy. So it's about for me having a strategic plan of follow up you can't just meet someone for drinks and then never talked to them again. You have to figure out how you can keep them in your life. And here it Feldman Shepherd. It's great because we have a newsletter that I don't have to be so involved with any more that reaches out and connects with my contacts and keeps them, um, you know, gives them a reminder. Oh, there's Feldman Shepherd. Oh, you know, I have a case, so I should give Bethany a call. So it's just reminding people that you are out there, that you are available for work and you can help them without ever asking. I think that's the most important part. I've never made an ask anything to add

spk_0:   43:40
on the gifts from. I got peeps advice books, but that

spk_2:   43:48
sound I mean, that's a compelling. That sounds right. Like what you just said sounds like a good tactic, and it's obviously been working for you. So

spk_0:   43:57
So the people that

spk_1:   43:57
you meet for the first time, though, um, are you sending handwritten notes? Are you? What? What's the follow up with your do? Send

spk_0:   44:06
a welcome email so t I gotta

spk_2:   44:10
know what

spk_0:   44:10
This is so two things I hand

spk_1:   44:14
written notes are impossible because my handwriting is terrible. Um, so for me, I always sent an email follow up. I've also discovered a website recently. That's tremendous. It's called post

spk_2:   44:26
Way. You need to get them a sponsor. People

spk_1:   44:35
post doubles dot com. I found a Web site that basically types and it looks like handwriting, and I've tested it out. So people think that

spk_0:   44:44
it's a hand radio. They think that it's a handwritten note. I tricked my mother. I think it's a handwritten note, and it's not so. Seo passes what? So you go online? You would type out your note. You put in the address. Even the envelope looks like it's hand written, and they sent it

spk_1:   45:03
for you. So

spk_2:   45:04
choose different types of handwriting.

spk_1:   45:05
Yes, incredible. So go on there and look and check it out.

spk_2:   45:10
I look forward to them being a sponsor podcast.

spk_0:   45:14
Any tips on that

spk_1:   45:16
people you meet for the first time? What's your follow up process? I'm big

spk_2:   45:19
on. I do like handwritten notes, but I don't. I typically don't do it in like the professional context. I do handwritten notes to like you know I did it for, you know, my wife's family members. I met them for the first time. Or like stay at somebody's house, that kind of thing. Um, you know, the follow up email is enough for me, and it's usually Kurt. I'm always If I am interested in talking to somebody in developing relationship of that person, I want to be in person with that individual again as soon as possible. So I'm always looking to, you know, go for a meal or go to a game or something like that because that those were genuinely fun and it makes it I'm just better in that. I feel like I'm better one on one with somebody that I am. You know, when correspondents

spk_1:   45:59
Just a quick comment on the follow up. Uh, you know, when you meet someone and event and you get a card and you do a follow up, people don't respond all the time. So just know that you're going to send an email and people are gonna totally blow you off and don't get discouraged. And J P is laughing because

spk_0:   46:16
clearly that never happens, Thio. But don't get discouraged

spk_1:   46:24
and know that that's gonna happen. Now,

spk_0:   46:26
do you send a follow up to everyone who gave you a business card or

spk_1:   46:30
you like again? Is there a strategy behind who you send the fellow up to? It

spk_0:   46:35
depends on what type

spk_1:   46:35
of event you're going and who you're connecting with. If you're going to an event that's not all attorneys, and you go home at the end of the night and you have a bunch of cards from people that are not necessarily really part of your network or who's going to help you, then I don't always follow up with everybody or, you know, you go to event and you meet someone and you get some weird vibe or the people person creeps you out. You know, you

spk_0:   46:57
don't have to follow up with that

spk_1:   46:58
person, so definitely, definitely, um, you don't always have to follow up with everybody, but certainly if I'm going out and meeting attorneys, I try to folk with everyone I meet. And what's the timing in terms off? You know, you meet them today. Do you send something tomorrow that you send something next week? Um, you know, you reach out again after the first time It certainly depends on help is you are, you know, if you have a lot going on, but for me, I tried to do it the next day. I think that that's what um works the best. But certainly there are times when I pull out a big stack a week later and start shooting off e mails

spk_2:   47:33
I'm big into, like the card ends up in one of the

spk_0:   47:36
pockets on that out like

spk_2:   47:39
the rest of the night. And then you know, the dry cleaner or whatever. They will be a car. So, Toby, whenever the card resurfaces or it will be, you know, when I meet them in a more intimate contact. It's not like a huge network game, and I'm in 100 people. Then it's easier the next day does shooting e mails. It was

spk_0:   47:58
it was somebody that you really need to get back to, like, hole on. Yeah, I don't know. So lose that car. It's, you

spk_2:   48:04
know, it's weird. I'm maybe I'm in the minority on this. I've always considered the the professional success that I think that is the most enriching and the most that you can trust. Coming the most is based on the quality of your work and your ability, at least as a trial attorney, to present in a courtroom to take strong depositions, to do all the nuts and bolts thing, so that to me that seems so. That's always where I'm focused on, and I want clients to be happy. I want pearls, sources to speak to those clients in here that I did a great job or whatever it is, And that kind of is where I focus a lot of my energy. The rest of it is more personally enriching. It's more like I wanna have, Ah, I enjoy the Philadelphia legal community. I like a lot of these lawyers, a lot of really smart people who know a lot about different areas. A lot of I don't know anything about, um and and not just legally like they're just smart, right? People who are fun to talk to you. So that part of it I focus my guess. My professional networking is more like a byproduct of my desire to, you know, have friends who are cool.

spk_0:   49:04
So you do enjoy networking. I enjoy, You know, I haven't

spk_2:   49:13
I don't enjoy networking events as much as I enjoy hanging out with people talking.

spk_1:   49:19
So now let's go over public speaking and writing as a way to build your profile, but also build a network. Um, have you done that? Number one. How have you been able to utilize those opportunities to come? No relationships in general, I think that speaking and writing are fantastic opportunities. Um, for any young lawyer, because at the end of the day, like networking, like going to events like anything, it's about getting your name out. It's about getting people to know who you are. That is absolutely half the battle. So if you're able to publish an article in the legal, um, that's a fantastic opportunity that you should absolutely take advantage of. And once that article is in the legal, please go back posted on your Facebook page posted on your lengthen. Because it's all about not only publishing but getting people to read it and getting people to know what you're doing and speaking also very good way to get yourself out there. What I would have to say was speaking, though, is make sure it's a worthwhile opportunity. I found myself stuck two or three years ago, I did one Seeley for an organization and the sea. Ellie turned out being in Bethlehem in the middle of nowhere at a hotel where I put a lot of time and effort into preparing and presenting for five people, and I kind of got on their list and got sucked into doing these speaking opportunities every other month. And it was a lot of work in a lot of time, so make sure when you're right out of law school at those opportunities a waste of time. Absolutely not. When you're right out of law school, you need the experience. You need to know what you're doing, so I don't think it's a

spk_0:   51:09
waste of time, right. But I think

spk_1:   51:11
if you find yourself putting a lot of time and energy into it and it's in the middle of nowhere and there aren't that many people, after a certain amount of times, you have to decide whether it's something that's worthwhile or not, so don't get sucked into that. But otherwise, I don't think that a young attorney should be turning down opportunities to speak, to write and given the age of the Internet and technology there's more opportunities than ever.

spk_2:   51:35
Yeah, you know, uh, certainly for all all young attorneys, if you get an opportunity to something like that, you should, um I I like public speaking because not because I like public speaking or because I was ever, like, as a kid or college too good at it, but because it's fundamental. Teoh the practice and the only way to get better at it is to do it. So, um, there's a learning aspect of it, too. It that's invaluable. So every opportunity you have to get up and speak in front of a bunch of people, you should take it and then learn from the experience. Just hear your own voice, get comfortable space, get comfortable what you do with your body, sort of your body language like you speak, Um, and so for that aspect of it, it's been it's been great and rewarding, and I tried. I tried toe say yes, as much as possible to that kind of stuff and then writing. I mean, there's nothing, in my opinion, there's that's the most fundamental building block of being a good lawyer. His ability to write. So, um so, yeah, you should. Certainly, if you can write something for publication, you should do it for the reasons that Bethany just said, but also because the more that you write, the better you get at it. And, um, unfortunately, you know, there's there's a lot of not that great writers out there. There's you'll read a lot. Over the course of your career, you'll read briefs that are just not good. They're not well written, and I don't think the standards extraordinarily high out there generally, so you can really put yourself ahead if you develop Ah, skill set and writing that's even passable. It's definitely worth it.

spk_1:   53:09
So going back to your point about sharing articles and things on social media, so have you used Social media? Thio, I guess. Build network, um, have you been able to actually meet new people through Let's say, lengthen the sharing of your articles or how how have you used social media to your advantage and that sentence? I always wanted to try to improve my use of social media, and again J P. Is gonna laugh at me. But there have been many years where my New Year's resolution was to improve my use of social media and get better at it because I think that it's something that's very important. I don't think it's been a platform that I've used to build new relationships, but it's been a platform that I've used to enhance my connection with my contacts already. At one point in time, I spoke with someone who was giving me advice that said that, you know, on a platform like LinkedIn, you should really only be connected with people that you know. And I agree with that to a certain extent because, um, people often reach out to me and say, Oh, I see you're connected with so and so can you make the introduction? And if I don't know the person that that's kind of silly. So I use social media to communicate to my connections that I already know what I'm doing. So again, it's just another contact. Another thing to remind people. Oh, Bethany, you know, she's a trial attorney. She does this. She does that so that when they have a case, or something happens in their life that I'm the first person they think about. Yeah, saying what was the question?

spk_0:   54:42
You so so so, yeah,

spk_2:   54:43
um, I don't I just don't and I probably should and I don't. And that's not

spk_0:   54:48
I'm not so happy to hear. No, really. So it comes. It's

spk_1:   54:52
the whole It's in fashion time. It's the

spk_2:   54:55
whole thing. Well, I can't I just can't stand that comparative thing that's going on in our culture right now. I just hate it. I don't have an INSTAGRAM account. I have a Facebook account and never I have. It's been forever since I don't know it. Um, but I at some point I made a concerted effort to get away from doing it because you start to, like, do it every single day without even realizing it. I was There was a period of time when I was just like, logging on when I wasn't even I would just like, look up and be logged on to

spk_0:   55:21
Facebook. How did that happen?

spk_2:   55:27
S o I definitely understand their benefits to it. And Maura and Maur using it in the right way can get your message out there can get you out there, and I should I should do more of it. I am gonna make a concerted effort to rely more on the marketing team to get more work to Dio to take over my social media presence. Um, but no, I haven't been great at using

spk_1:   55:48
it. It's such a useful tool I found out recently. I mean, you composed on linked in, um, an article that you've done or our podcast, for example. And you can see how many people looked at the post. How many people? My reaching. I know how many people I'm reaching. How many people clicked on the link and actually read the article. I can see that. And I can use that as a tool to understand. What am I doing, right? What am I doing wrong? How can I get more people to be looking at my article or my podcast or my post? I

spk_2:   56:18
just feel like I won't have that like, that's what That's what did Elsie don't like she? That's why we have people who are good at that.

spk_0:   56:24
You know, I'm not It's not me. Help me out here. We have one

spk_1:   56:27
person for all of us. I not all

spk_2:   56:30
this guy Don't ask. You're doing. I've never asked anybody to do it. And here's my concern right here.

spk_0:   56:34
change your picture. Did you notice? Thank

spk_2:   56:38
you for doing that. I think the last one was like me and my mom or something

spk_0:   56:41
from 1995. But so here's what.

spk_2:   56:46
So my only point on the Lincoln Thing that you just said I mean, the idea that you are able somehow to take the information that you're getting from, who has seen it or engaged with it and make a change is incredible to me. I don't know where you got that skill set or how to develop myself. For me, the concern is like, Oh, man, nobody liked

spk_0:   57:03
my eyes. Not what everybody thinks so because I heard they were thinking

spk_2:   57:12
about taking, like, likes away from it.

spk_0:   57:14
I think it's something that way. Yeah, that's right. So it's not just me, like that's a thing that's happening. People are. It's so anxiety inducing depression that's like No, no, nobody liked my finger. It's telling you what you need to do better. It's not telling you anything. I know people didn't engage with it, but I know

spk_1:   57:33
you know, if my post has a photo, more people are gonna look at it. If my link to our podcast has a photo, more

spk_0:   57:40
people on social media, class of some sort that see, that's totally love it myself, actually looking at Lincoln, absolutely, to do Battle analytics on this it says, Right there views. You can see very easily

spk_2:   57:58
your Google search history and we'll find out

spk_0:   58:00
Theo way that's

spk_2:   58:06
intuitive to you. And I don't believe it. I'll never

spk_0:   58:08
know. But I think that everybody has

spk_1:   58:11
a personal responsibility as an attorney. Um, if you have an interest, if you want to promote yourself, if you want to do better. If you want to bring in more business, this is part of the market. This is what you have to dio, and you cannot rely on the one or two marketing people in our office to do that for you. Now I drive an LZ absolutely

spk_0:   58:31
crazy. Can you do this for me? Can you do that

spk_1:   58:34
for me? Can you help me with this?

spk_0:   58:35
Can you help me with that? But I have no comment, okay? But I thought of it myself and I'm interested in, and I want

spk_1:   58:42
to improve my social media and engage with my contacts more. I

spk_0:   58:45
think the

spk_1:   58:46
advantage of doing that. It's also, you know, right now you're exposing yourself to a local network, right? Events you go to, You're in a newspaper magazine ad, so it's very center around a tail, five mile radios or whatever markets were promoting. So when you go on social media, you actually expanding your reach to national audiences. So definitely an opportunity there, especially with articles you've written or like podcast interviews. Anything along those lines, um, as they definitely generate new business. Definitely a way to generate new

spk_0:   59:20
No, I want it.

spk_2:   59:21
So I want to make I'm not like an old man screaming at Cloud.

spk_0:   59:23
I know I'm not saying I'm not doubting. I'm not just can't be all things to

spk_1:   59:29
all people.

spk_2:   59:29
It's obviously very true. It's important. It's all those things. It's just like a personal failing. I'm not good at it,

spk_1:   59:35
that's all. And Leah, with regard to the national, um, opening yourself to a national network that's again something that you can track. You can see how many people from

spk_0:   59:46
killing Felix. No, 100%. How many? How many people you know? Oh,

spk_1:   59:51
10 people from New York looked at this. People from California.

spk_0:   59:54
I am actually very impressive. Happy. Thank you. You hear that? I appreciate that. Now,

spk_1:   59:59
um, you know, we've talked a lot about building a referral network. How about, you know, going outside of that, What have you done? What do you do to expose yourself to audiences outside of the legal industry? If anything, do you go thio? You know events. Or if you go to, like, even family friends type of gatherings, like, what are some of the things you do to foster that and position yourself as an attorney? What you are what you do to gain business outside of it's important that everyone that you know knows what you d'oh. So for me, that's a That's a big thing. And getting J. P is laughing at me. So everyone at the sporting club at the Bellevue knows that I'm an attorney. They know what I d'oh! And I have people that have contacted me. I have a family member was a problem. I have this or that, you know? Can you help me? So, um, you know, my husband does real estate. Uh, and I make sure that everyone he's involved with knows what I d'oh. Um, you know he works for a company that's in commercial real estate. A lot of their attendants happen to be your attorneys or other types of people. And I use him for connections or, you know, sometimes they help him with renting apartments and random people. I give them my card. It was nice to meet you, by the way, I'm an attorney. So put yourself out there and make sure that people know what you do, even if they're not in your network, even if they're not attorneys.

spk_2:   1:1:22
Yeah, that all sounds right, too. I mean, that sounds like exactly what you should. D'oh! Um, I've been very Eh? So I'm just really lucky on the personal side of things I want to. I went to college here, went to grad school here. Um, I just have a lot of good, close relationships here, so I'm that part of it is kind of a natural area where just from talking to people in circles, they kind of know what I do generally, Um, and then I've never turned like, you know, I had a buddy of mine once. Tell me you should never do ah $100 job. You should do a favor, and I kind of like taking that to heart like I get called. I get called on all kinds of weird stuff that I don't know anything about. Um and it takes a little bit of time to research it to help out, to give some advice. But I think that probably again, like in the long con sense of things in the aggregate, probably that does some benefit. I have no analytics to demonstrate

spk_0:   1:2:14
that, like me, too. And that has

spk_2:   1:2:16
improved my sort of, um, I draw. But it's it's, I think, probably over the long term, gonna be fine and then the other side is certain, like service. I think you should, um, be service oriented. I think you have an obligation to be service oriented as an attorney and particularly if you preach certain fundamental things in your life that you care about certain ethical codes or, um, really just morals that you believe in. Then you kind of have an obligation to go out and practice that purpose in the real world and to serve the community in some context. So if you're willing to do that and take the time to do that on a weekend or on on MLK day, for example, which is coming up like you overtime again. I think that you have an opportunity to meet a lot of people that you wouldn't otherwise meet. Who will get to know you as a person to get to know your confidence level and get to know that you're a lawyer who practices in a certain space. And I think over time probably that'll get your name out there, too.

spk_1:   1:3:15
Okay, so, um, let's go back to 1st 3 years out of law school if we could do one thing different in terms of how you build your professional network, how you approach networking as a whole, what would that be? I admittedly did not do anything in my 1st 3 years of practice in terms of building a network so it would have been to build a network. It would have been to connect with people, get out there and start building a network, because I think it's important that it's something that you do early on because it's not something that could be done overnight. It's something that has to be done over a lifetime over a career, so start early and do it.

spk_2:   1:4:05
So I was I can't remember where I heard this, but I heard someone's a recently, Um, I think it might. Even Conan O'Brien. Weirdly, I

spk_1:   1:4:13
think I heard

spk_2:   1:4:14
Conan O'Brien in an interview say about some young person who was asking him for advice. You you have less to lose than you think, you d'oh. Which I don't necessarily agree with like in terms of a black and white statement. But in terms of time, I definitely do agree with that. I think that you get no matter what happens in your life, you are going to get busier. You're gonna have Maur draws on your time. You're gonna have less time to do the things that are gonna help you long term and that you have a choice in that you have some agency in, and more of your time becomes things that you have to do that you have commitments all over the place, and there's just less of it to go around. So if I could go back, I would have an appreciation of that and then try and before thinking and say to myself, Well, if I have this time now, and I'm not always gonna have it. Maybe I should use it for something that's productive for, like, future J P, which I was not great at doing. I was mostly focused on present J. P. Um, and he had a great time or whatever, but I didn't do a lot of like this. I didn't do a lot of this stuff. I didn't go and meet people even coming. You know, the HB is great, but even that it wasn't like I got out of law school was, like, all amped up to get involved in the group. You know, it took a judge saying, Hey, maybe you should, you know, No. You know, like maybe dummy, you should get involved in this group. It was like, All right, well, then I'll do that. But if I had, if I could do it again, it would be that it would be You have more time than you think you do. And certainly more time than you will have in the future. Use it constructively to do to do stuff that's gonna help you.

spk_1:   1:5:43
Now, this is a random question. Do you guys actually have mentors? That you've met, let's say the 1st 34 years out of law school that actually Coach shoot through, um, you're building your professional network. I would say for me, I do not make any really meaningful connections with people that I considered mentors until after my fifth year of practice. So and that was a big mistake. I didn't realize you understand the importance of that. So I would definitely tell my younger self to do that. But after that fifth year of practice, there have been a number of people that I've considered mentors in my professional career.

spk_2:   1:6:22
Yeah, I s Oh, very, very lucky. Just didn't. It wasn't, you know, part of a plan or anything. But I happened to meet that judge who told me that I should get involved in the group and other groups, and actually, he ended up being the efficient at my wedding. He's always been like someone I could go to and ask advice of. And actually, when I was coming to work here, he was somebody I don't have a sense of, like how to talk to people in private industry about like, you know what? I'm gonna make what the incentives, all these things. So he's somebody who, like, got people on the phone for me, you know, on their vacation to, like, talk to me about what to say and what to ask. Um, and then, you know, it kind of each stop along the way. I've been very blessed toe. It seems like there's always somebody who's, you know, older, more experienced was like, Hey, you're doing this all wrong. Let me help you. And you should you should take You should take this advice. Um, sometimes, like at forcefully like what you're doing, You're doing dumb stuff. So, yeah, I've definitely had that stuff along the way and could not recommend it more you? Absolutely. If you don't, If you're young lawyer and you don't you look around you like I don't know who I would go to for advice. Apart from my parents or somebody who's always built in there, Um, go out of your way to just like there are so many, you know, attorneys with a little bit of experience who would be so happy to like, have somebody toe coach up and walk along the path. That's something I think a lot of people value and get a lot of get a lot of happiness from so reach out.

spk_1:   1:7:45
Well, you know, to your point, it takes people actually stepping outside of their comfort zone and actually asking for help. Right? So for you, how did that relationship came about with the judge? How do you actually like, How do you start their relationship and have him to be some sort of play that mentor role in your life?

spk_2:   1:8:05
Um, s so it was, uh He lives in the area where I went to college, and so I was a mathlete in college. So his kids were out there and we're at camps and stuff, and I didn't know it at the time, But when I lied or met him at an event, a scholarship event and he was like doing the whole scholarship thing and like, it actually handed me the thing. And I got to talk to him a little bit. That was an immediate sort of connection and then just stayed, you know, it was I was very, very lucky. In that way. I was not good at, like, following up on being like, Hey, I'd love to go get coffee with you were like because I figured, you know, I don't want to be the person who asks for help. Like, this guy has a 1,000,000 people asking for help and also, like, I don't need it like I'm gonna be fine. I'll go do it on my own because that's just kind of what you think as, like, a sort of immature person. You're late twenties. Um, and I just got blessed that he was very sort of, you know, come to this. Come speak on this thing, Come to this panel, get involved in this group. Um, so you without that probably, and his advice in terms of what you just said, be willing to step outside of your comfort zone and ask someone for help. It's not. I can't remember exactly what the phrasing was, but so good and so instructed to me was like, You're not You're asking for a favor. You're You know you are going to see that you're asking. Really ask. You're giving that person an opportunity. Like if that's the early investor in you, then not only will you feel engaged toe repay that by being successful in being someone that you know that person will be proud of. But also, like, you know, that person will be rewarded in the relationship just as much as you will if you continue along the path and work hard and do all these things so that it took a kind of a shift in my mind to be able to get there.

spk_1:   1:9:51
Great. So with that, I'll be a really good point on. It's the factor of consistency, right? So in building your professional network is not a one off type of thing, you know, you have to stay top of mind. You have to be persistent and consistent at the same time to be able to foster those relationships. And against that stay top of mind. So what would be some recommendations you you could offer, um, two young lawyers in terms of, you know, staying consistent and not going to overboard? You know where your leg in people's faces every day. But what's that Happy medium? What are some of the things you do yourselves? Um, to to, um, to get that going on in your path, Just have a plan, have a goal and stick with it. Whether be I'm going to connect with two new people every week this month. That's my goal. Or I'm gonna have to follow up lunches a week, or I'm gonna post on social media X, amount of times, make a plan, set a goal and do it is the best way to be consistent.

spk_2:   1:11:01
I would, Yeah, I'm big on. Um my consistency mostly comes from routine, like I'm a creature of habit. So I need certain things all the time. And if I don't get them, I've become like like, I need a black

spk_0:   1:11:13
tea. Oh, yeah. I get

spk_2:   1:11:15
all out of whack, and then I'm like, not only am I become a worse person to be around and like, grouchy, which is, like, not my normal space, but also I'm less productive. It's harder to get motivated. So I'm big on protein big. Unlike doing the things that you need in your life. But also, like big on self care. I don't think I've ever talked like young lawyers. I've been like a man. Take care yourself because it gets really stressful. And like identify early what you need. If you need somebody to talk to you, then go talk to somebody and make that part of your team. Just be honest with yourself about what you need. Because if you don't, it's hard to see in the short term. But really, over the course of 2020 30 40 year career, that stuff builds up. And if you don't have that routine built in, you're gonna be unhappy. And I think we've all probably seen that somewhere in the profession met somebody who just seems like a really unhappy person. Probably didn't start out that way.

spk_1:   1:12:07
Great. So in closing, you know, New Year 2020. Um, let's set up some, I guess New Year's resolutions here. So can we actually come up with top three things you recommend people put on their little list as goals for this year? Um, things that you must d'oh, um, to help build that

spk_2:   1:12:32
professional network. Oh, you put that little caveat at the end. I was just gonna Do you know this is about professional? We're

spk_0:   1:12:41
gonna tell you what my number my solution, has to do with networking. Just not. It was remain mellow. That's not a resolute. How are you? You mean like, don't have

spk_2:   1:12:52
the highs or lows

spk_1:   1:12:53
just don't get upset by the things that come by every day. The calls about you know a client issue were, you

spk_0:   1:13:03
know, or don't

spk_1:   1:13:06
be stressed out because you have so many briefs to dio. Stay calm, remain mellow. That is great, but I was That was my New Year's resolution. But that's

spk_0:   1:13:19
on the networking. That working, uh, three New Year's

spk_1:   1:13:23
resolutions one work on social media. Um, promote yourself more. That would be a perfect resolution to set a number of people that you want to meet this month in whatever network it is. I want to connect with so many people and have so many follow up lunches. And three Find a way to get yourself and your name out there arm or so that more people know who you are. Three. Net three. New Year's resolutions Boom,

spk_0:   1:13:52
bang. Hey, uh, so my personal year's

spk_2:   1:14:00
resolution was to read 10 books.

spk_0:   1:14:02
Wow, which is so intellectual just is

spk_2:   1:14:06
such a bad feeling to have to make that a resolution, but you can't there. So we read so much practice and I just don't get to do that much.

spk_0:   1:14:12
Have 20 like that, like I

spk_2:   1:14:15
would love I just can't. I had to set something that's like, very, you

spk_0:   1:14:19
know, it has to be

spk_2:   1:14:20
attainable and 10 feels attainable. I don't know. I got one down on the

spk_0:   1:14:24
way, like 16. So she I cheated. I started. I started the Book of Cliff No, e started the book into honey, but it's not like I can't I'm not

spk_2:   1:14:35
gonna be too hard on myself here. Um, so that's that's my personal one. Professional networking goals I would really love. I would really love to. To start to send people gifts like peeps.

spk_0:   1:14:48
I think that's a good what happened happened? Uh huh. Oh, I get So I got

spk_2:   1:15:05
on the on the special networking thing. I

spk_0:   1:15:07
think I like a problem. Molly keeps everything people know he's making me. I

spk_2:   1:15:19
think a good professional networking one, um, would be too, um, go join. Want just joined one either bar association or legal adjacent group. That's not in your preferred practice area. Gobi. It go go to a meeting or go join some group That's like, you know, the real estate, our association or something that's just not you so that you can get a little bit of ah more diverse network going on, but also, like here, a little bit about an area of law that you don't know that much about which I always find me like you get so in, uh, personal injury space. You begin lose. There's other stuff out there.

spk_0:   1:16:00
Well, you're missing one. Uh, 12 Oh, there's 1/3 1 but three run 1/2 marathon way. My wife with new people. You've never met before? Uh, yeah. Yeah, that's it.

spk_2:   1:16:19
I'm gonna train. I'm gonna train for I may get training group together for 1/2 marathon That consists of new people. I'm gonna join a run club. Bam. Done.

spk_1:   1:16:29
Hey, I'm just gonna ignore this

spk_0:   1:16:31
anyway. Great. Great tip. All right, guys, thank you so

spk_1:   1:16:35
much for joining us today. And we will see you next time. Thanks, everybody. Thank you.