Key Trends for 2025 Part 2: Live from Phocuswright

We actually launched this show in August and here we are at the beginning of 2025 , in January . For those of you listening to this in the future , obviously , those are the bookmarks .

So it's been six months of releasing episodes of season four and I couldn't be more appreciative to the team , to all of our sponsors and partners and , most importantly , all of our listeners who've been supporting us on this journey . We've absolutely loved bringing you these deep dives into the most important topics in travel .

Of course , we kicked things off talking about adventure . We talked about cruise . We've had so many amazing guests and I won't be able to recap them all , but I did want to just acknowledge all of our title sponsors for supporting our production , which , of course , you've been hearing their ads throughout this season .

But I just wanted to say a big thanks again to Propellic to Travel AI , to Lansby with Northern Soul and Stay 22 for supporting this season and all of our theme sponsors as well . We greatly appreciated your involvement and we're so excited to bring you season five .

That will officially launch next Wednesday , january 15th , and we'll share more details on that very shortly . So make sure that you are signed up for our newsletter at TravelTrendsPodcastcom and follow us on our social channels Instagram , linkedin and YouTube so all of those are at TravelTrendsPodcastcom and follow us on our social channels Instagram , linkedin and YouTube .

So all of those are at Travel Trends Podcast .

But we wanted to bring you this final episode , which is the second installment from the Focusrite conference , and , for those of you who listened to part one , you would have heard from eight extraordinary people , and today you're going to hear from eight more extraordinary people that we had the chance to sit down with in person and learn what they're focusing on

and prioritizing for 2025 . And I'm very keen for you to hear all these remaining highlights , kicking it off with Charlotte Lamp Davies from ITB . We have Interlink CEO . We've got a really cool startup named Jetpack , matthew Wade . We've got Lucy from Condatus , who actually they give a great talk at the end . We've got Jeff Fromm from Forbes and the team from .

We've got Al .

We finally got a chance to get Al from Nuve on the show , so we've got a number of highlights on this part too , and I wanted to thank the Focusrite team again for bringing us in , pete and Jean and all the team for making us feel so welcome , giving us the space to be able to record these episodes and showcase all the incredible people that come together

for the Focusrite conferences . We're excited to continue our partnership in 2025 with Europe and San Diego , so be sure to register for those events and look out for us there . But now we want to present to you the final episode of season four highlights from Focusrite .

I have the pleasure now to sit down with Charlotte Lamp-Davies , who's the founder of A Bright Approach . She's across so many things happening in the travel industry . I had the opportunity to catch up with her recently at World Travel Market in London .

She is the reason that I'm going to be at ITB in March of 2025 for the very first time , and I'm thrilled about that . Charlotte , welcome to Travel Trends . Great to have you with us .

But before we dive into Focusrite , tell everyone a bit more about what you do and the things that you're across , because I'm always amazed that I turn a corner and there you are again . So tell us a bit more about , I guess , your background in the industry and what you're working on .

I actually came in initially to help launch the Travolution brand , which some of your , many of your listeners might be very aware of , and then I was lucky enough to join DataArt off . And then I was lucky enough to join DataArt to actually expand on their new sort of business developments over in the European markets .

And then six years ago I set up my own management consultancy , a Bright Approach , where initially the thought was that I was going to help travel technology companies with their business strategies , go-to-market strategy , kind of just actually spread my wings across more than just one employer , if you like , and sort of help them put together the best possible strategies

for developing and expanding their markets .

Wonderful , A number of my clients are in that sort of AI space , which we see , of course , is really really taking off now , and I'm very much enjoying actually being at the forefront of seeing you know how AI technology is making a difference in travel .

Absolutely it is the hot topic and it needs to be , for many reasons , but I'd love to talk about the things that bring you to Focusrite , because clearly you love this conference as well and I think it's one of the best travel industry conferences , and so tell us what brought you to Focusrite this year and what are some of the standout opportunities that you're

looking to capitalize on , whether it's attending some of the sessions or some of the networking opportunities . But yeah , what brought you back to Focusrite this year ?

For me , it's always an opportunity to connect with my existing network but , as importantly , connect my existing network with new people , and that's probably one of my . That's probably one of the things that I love the most about my job is the fact that I know a fair amount of people and the connecting right people with right people .

It's just a tremendous joy for me . So you'll see me , as you say , here , there and everywhere . But I also very much love to sit in on a lot of the sessions and the panels and the keynotes

. Again , it's about sort of keeping my finger on the pulse , if you like , and actually understanding what conversations are taking place , even the ones I might not be privy to be a part of .

But we feel again , both with the experts and with everybody who has signed up to join us at the table , we feel that this is the time to actually really really dig in . We are making progress after all , we're getting there .

So the connected trip is all about that and I think it's going to be something we're going to hear a lot about in this particular conference as well . And secondly , I would say I am a huge fan of the launch pad and the launch stage , and indeed I'll be interviewing a number of the guys that are actually presenting on launch stage later today .

So I'm always very , very excited to hear what's new , whether it be established companies that are coming out with new solutions and services or , of course , my beloved startups . I have a real soft spot for all of them .

pitches , and it was always the highlight for me , because you see this emerging technology , you see these emerging leaders , and so it also brings together investors for this event as well , which is another kind of exciting dynamic that people are here with so many different motivations , but one of them certainly is connecting startups to their next investment and a

potential acquisition at some point . But one of the things I wanted to ask you too , charlotte , since we've gotten to know each other and I think one of the areas that you really excel at is mentoring and bringing people along in the industry , and I would love for you to share your philosophy on that if you wouldn't mind , because I found it .

I found it very inspiring and , um , but tell us a little bit more about how you approach , because you , um , you're in many of these conversations and you advocate for , obviously , uh , um , female founders and leaders in this space . But tell us a little bit about how you approach that , because I think it's really unique and also very compelling .

I have myself been very lucky , I would say , with mentorship from the very beginnings of my own career and I think as I got older I really realized you know how much that absolutely meant to me , and when it comes to these sort of startup organizations , I often feel that I get more out of them that they might think that they get out of me .

So I think that's maybe why it ends up working very well . I've been around the block a few times , so there are just certain things . I just happen to know that if you keep doing things in a certain way , you will be successful , and a lot of things has to . It's a numbers game in many , many , many , many ways .

You have to have the stamina , you have to have a certain set of energy for anything to actually become successful , and not everybody necessarily has that naturally , but I do think now that it's something that can be learned . I keep going myself .

I have it naturally , so I try to sort of impose that and I try to explain to anybody that comes under , you know , sort of under my care or mentees that come my way , that turn up , be ready , do a little bit more , do a little bit more all the time , and then again next day turn up , be ready . It's like the program location , location , location .

You've got to be at it all the time . There's no let up . There's no easy way to be at it all the time . There's no let up . There's no easy way to be successful . And there is something famous about the . You know , I , I find the more I worked , the the more successful I become yeah , it's it's , I think .

Actually a lot of stuff is very basic at the end of the day yeah .

So the whole thing about showing up , you just cannot , uh , I guess , underestimate the importance of making yourself available and being at conferences like this to be able to have the networking opportunity .

So they're , you know they , they need to be on the main stage , but they also need to work the room afterwards and get you know all the people that line up to speak to them and seize every opportunity while they're here Absolutely , and ask what other people are doing .

thing first .

And of course , I want to ask you about ITB as well but just broadly , with some of the main trends , because one of the things I always love about coming to Focusrite is , I feel as though this prepares me for the next three to six months of what's going to happen in the travel industry .

You see certain deals being made or certain partnership opportunities and you kind of get a sense of where the industry is headed and I find that actually kind of reassuring and encouraging .

You can go home after this and , as you're starting to see headlines of things unfold in our industry , you're like oh yeah , I picked up on that because you could see at Focus right that that was an emerging area . Like you talked about AI , we're going to see a lot more development of that 2025 .

But , yeah , what are some of the other major trends that you're paying attention to for 2025 ?

What I'm saying here , and everybody else will have said it maybe before me and will say it for a little while longer , but I think this is a technology that has it , has literally just it arrived and we just instantaneously understood it , I think versus a lot of other technologies that arrived , and travel will really , really benefit from this . I'm not worried .

I'm not worried about the job losses around this at all . Quite the opposite , maybe , if anything , and if that's a bit controversial , then so be it but I actually think it's going to just open up for a lot of things which humans will still be able to do better . But we're actually going to be doing it .

We are going to be doing things better because of the arrival of AI at our fingertips , and I think the sooner that anybody realizes that , the better .

And , as I say , a lot of my clients are developing AI technology for the travel industry and they are now beginning to see less reluctancy from companies bringing this in , and that goes with actually being able to prove through their other existing clients that you know the technology is helping improve things for the organizations that actually adapt and bring it into

the fold .

We're in the first inning when it comes to AI and its adoption and utilization , and we're going to see such significant changes in the years ahead , but certainly in 2025, .

One of the areas that I focused on my presentation at WTM when we caught up last was hyper-personalization with AI that there's just so much opportunity to customize , leveraging the data and these language models , so I'm paying attention certainly to startups that are capitalizing on that .

Are there any other trends beyond AI that you're also paying attention to in 2025 ?

And if you are selling something high-end for example , a high-end trip to a company , and you're a travel agent , you can really really leverage this type of technology to actually deliver a much , much better package than you could if it was just done simply by humans . It's just a fact . So we need to utilize this full on .

And call centers I mean , this is another no brainer , absolutely no brainer . There's a company that's around here again Intensify . They're doing this very , very well , for example , led by their CEO , marcus . They've been in the business for a while and it's just again .

It's really , really raising the standard of how you service your customers if you implement the right technology .

But they've also leveraged AI and I'm sure you're aware of this with hotelplannerai , and they were highlighting just recently to the investment community that they're servicing somewhere around 10,000 calls a day using AI to convert .

So not only is business strong , they're also dramatically reducing their overhead at the same time , which clearly is going to be exactly what investors are going to be looking for when you go to an IPO . So these are the things that I'm .

You've kindly presented me with an opportunity to moderate a panel about hidden gems , and we've brought together already two fantastic people , both from with locals and also from impulse travel in columbia , to talk about how these tour operators or tour companies create these itineraries with real hidden gems , that not just saying that in marketing speak , but how do they

create really compelling experiences for their guests . So I'm really looking forward to that .

This will happen during the tours and activities track and , as you knowb berlin have , I think , a total of 11 tracks . So it will be a busy few days and I know you're gonna love every minute of it well , everyone at wtm said to me there's just like just wait for itb .

I've never met anybody , regardless of what good shoes they might be wearing . But also the technology halls are now completely crammed and it's where we really have seen a significant change in the last few years , and they are sold out in a heartbeat every year .

So it just goes to show you know that you can't avoid technology , you can't avoid the talk , and you've got to sort of be in it

to win it right .

So , no , I'm really looking forward to it and obviously it would be a huge highlight for me and , hopefully , many of our listeners that are also now keen to join us at ITB , because the cost of attending is actually quite reasonable . So check out the details and plan to join us there .

If you haven't , obviously we'd love for you to be a part of our travel trend session , and the session I'm going to be moderating it's on the 5th of March , at 1130 , I believe , and so if anyone wants to make note of that , please by all means come and join us , but definitely , no matter what , make your way to ITB in early March .

I've been telling so many colleagues , and a number of people are like oh , of course , I go to ITB every year , so , anyway , I'm looking forward to seeing you again there . Thank you for making the time for this , charlotte .

I want to make sure that any of our listeners , too , can follow up with you or connect with you , so where would be the best place to direct them to .

And thanks for continuing to lead in this space , and it's an honor to know you and have this time with you , and I wish you good luck the next couple of days at the conference .

He's based in London and his name is Barry Clipp . He's the CEO and co-founder of a company called Interlink . Welcome , barry , great to have you with us . Lovely Thanks , dan . Nice to be here .

You too , and last night you were all the buzz at the opening night and then I've heard so much about you today , and so it's great not only to meet you but to have a chance to sit down with someone . I'm only just coming to know and understand and be able to talk about your business .

So tell everyone a little bit about Interlinked and the company that you founded .

We'd established that customers spend on average about $330 , $350 on fashion and beauty products for the trips they've actually booked , but the travel industry had never been able to monetize it . So we set about monetizing that consumer behavior .

And now you have been on a winning spree coming into this , and so our good friend , uh stewart um that uh stewart graph from forbes travel guide , who's been on our show and is a big supporter of all things we're doing the travel trends he's obviously a huge supporter of you and he was telling me about you have won five awards in the past year , including

startup of the year . So yeah , you won last year's world travel market .

But yeah , we've actually won five startup awards in the past year World Travel Market Startup of the Year , arabian Travel Market Startup of the Year , future Travel Experience Startup of the Year . Arabian Travel Market Startup of the Year , future Travel Experience Startup of the Year , and a few others .

And obviously now , with the opportunity to be one of these hot 25 companies , is probably something I never thought we'd actually build when we came up with the idea . It's quite incredible how it's captured the imagination .

Obviously , the decision makers is obviously where you want to be in front of and , of course , like any startup , we're often talking about investment and taking that company to the next stage , so having the opportunity to meet those investors is obviously of paramount importance for us .

Right that you know started off with a business that you know was based on the idea you bid for first-class tickets and moved up , and now they're generating $5 billion in revenue .

They just raised another $1 billion in capital to fund expansions , and so I think probably what's lost on many people , and I would even say myself for a while , is just how big the ancillary business is . You know the airline business and SkyMongles and the actual power of the wallet of these travelers .

So the one thing I'd love to ask you is that when you look at the products that you're currently selling , I'm really intrigued to know so maybe obviously you're just launching in the US , maybe out of the UK what are some of the top selling items that you're able to get in front of travelers ?

And yeah , it's just fascinating to see what people buy , everything from the electronics to the fashion that they're actually going to buy for the trips , to very expensive handbags , to the swimwear I mean , really it's what people buy for their vacations anyway , and what we're doing is monetizing that consumer behavior . So we're not changing the game at all .

It's the logical things that people go and buy , everything from medicine from the pharmacies Out in the US . We've got CVS as a partner and it's as you would imagine , so nothing special . We've just found the gap , really , and trying to monetize it .

We are an invisible brand , so to speak , and essentially , when a customer books with an airline , which was there as the example , the data points that are non-PII in the GDPR world come over to us into our matching engine , which we've built proprietary , and it processes those data points and it builds a curation against over 25,000 brands that are partnered with us

and that we have commercial agreements with to build a personalized and relevant curation for that customer . Every single customer will receive a completely personalized curation based on where they're going , when they're going , how much they've spent , agenda , et cetera , et cetera , and it acts as inspiration .

So it's post-booking , pre-departure , almost a case of what goes into your suitcase before you go away and so far proving quite successful .

But you did mention you're obviously launching in the US , so it's great opportune timing to be here for Focusrite launching in the US , keen to hear some of the other benefits .

I know you've been to Focusrite Europe but coming into this year and this event , I'm assuming some of the partnerships , obviously , the exposure , yeah , what are some of the things you're hoping to get out of being here at Focusrite Phoenix ?

Oh , you know , we've been seeing your success on on various platforms and the partnerships that you're getting built , and so that's only given fuel to the ability to talk to other major companies that are now approaching us major airlines , of course yeah .

Which is staggering , you know , from an idea that was born at 2 am in the morning during COVID to suddenly be here talking to some of the biggest travel companies in the world .

Some major agreements for example , a satellite company called Viasat , who I think are well known now in the US , have just done an agreement with us to put our solution on board airlines and be a shopping mall on board . Wow , that's great . To basically monetize the Wi-Fi that the airlines now have .

Huge capital expenditure against Various agreements that are in place that I can't talk about at the moment .

the volume that's coming through from the customer base and the negotiation uh from there with with the shopping malls , they'll go on board . That's a completely different commercial model and that'll be a scalable uh one based on every flight that takes off .

So every every flight that takes off will draw a revenue stream for us , but the travel partner will get 90 to 100 of the commission and then how do you source the partners that they're going to choose to purchase products from Well ?

we spent two years building up these commercial agreements , so we've got 450 retailers now , about 25,000 brands , everything from High Street to Super High End , from ASOS to Armani to Montclair , to you name it . They're pretty much in our mall . Now that we've built commercial agreements with , we pull in a live feed .

We let the data points actually choose the brands that are going to come back and the products that will come back . But at the end of it the customer ends up in a digital shopping mall , white-labeled for the travel partner , and that customer can choose how they want to shop .

I'm assuming there's any number of transport providers . So , yeah , tell us about some of your growth ambitions as you get your next round of funding . And yeah , where else do you want to take this business ?

Completely global , where US , canada and UK will expand into Eastern Europe , northern Europe , middle East , india and Southeast Asia within 2025 . So huge growth plans Can be done under control . You know , as a tech business , you can control the costs . But exciting , you know , and every single country has a different shopping mall .

It's not the same shopping mall that's rolled out . So there's a lot of work to build up those retailer agreements . That's where the value is .

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I'm joined now by my friend who was part of last year's episode , actually Jared Ulster .

He is the co-founder of Dune 7 , along with his colleague , Tom Buckley , who was part of last year's episode as well , but I now have the privilege of just sitting down with Jared learning more about what Dune 7 has been up to in the past year and talking about why we're both here at Focusrite . So welcome , Jared , Great to have you with us .

We work a lot in the points and loyalty space . We also work in travel insurance and on B2B we do a lot of work with rest tech , revenue management , a bit of corporate travel embedded ancillaries . So we're kind of all over the place , but very much within travel

.

And how long you've been at it now for dune seven .

So tell us about some of the things you've been working on at Dune 7 over the past six to eight months with various clients you have .

So they rely on us to be their eyes and ears and to read all of the releases from Google and what they're doing and understand what's happening with answer engines like search , gpt , perplexity , and basically distill it and say what do we have to do ?

So , yes , we can argue about Google and whether it's dying or not , but at the end of the day , whether it's LLMs or it's traditional search engines , search marketing , seo is just about giving your consumers a way to easily find your content .

That's obviously one of the core offerings that you offer your clients , and so I'm keen to have that conversation with you , because there is a lot of concern with algorithm updates trying to penalize AI driven content , like the Panda update , and it's like so a number of .

I was even having a conversation last night with one major OTA that's seen their traffic get cut in half in the past year , so a lot of people are reeling from these algorithm updates that are sometimes negatively impacting companies for , I'd say , the wrong reasons , but they're trying to address this issue of AI content , like the content generation , proliferating .

So what would your advice be to clients that are coming in or to listeners of ours that are trying to navigate this new world , as you said , new normal ? It'll be interesting to see when we get to any state of normalcy . It's going to be choppy waters for a while , I think .

But yeah , what are some of the advice you give to people now when they're trying to figure out their SEO strategy in this 2025 era of AI's dominance ?

And so you know , I think Google being the behemoth that they are , they are viewed as an enemy to OTAs , as an enemy to direct suppliers and brands . But really I think Google has been , at least from an SEO perspective , if you listen to what they're saying on the search side .

And there's a guy named Danny Sullivan who basically his entire job at Google is to basically work with the publishing content SEO community to try and make them understand the changes that Google is making to the algo .

And I don't know Danny Sullivan personally , I've met him once at a search conference but I think it's important to understand that they are not trying to say that they're getting it 100% correct and they know that a lot of the tweaks that they're making have done damage to people's results that are unintentional .

And if you listen to what he says in his interviews and his writings . He goes as far as to say that we don't know everything , we are not perfect and we're trying .

Now you can believe that to whatever extent you want , but I think it's important to know that Google , you know , is publicly out there saying look , we know that we mess things up and we're trying to do better . So I think for brands that have lost traffic , that doesn't really help your traffic come back right .

But I think it's good to know that they are constantly making tweaks . Some of the tweaks you can see through A-B tests . Some of the tweaks us as consumers and folks in the industry , we never see , but they're constantly testing .

So I guess , to get to your question , dan , a lot of what we've been doing at Dune 7 and a lot of we just published this really big article on our blog about . Is LLMO large language model optimization the new SEO ? And is you know and is it so yeah ?

So I think you know right now , google , despite what people are saying , google is not going out of business . People are still using Google for search . Rand Fishkin , who is now over at SparkToro , comes from Moz , very , very outspoken in the search industry . He did an interesting study a few months back and was looking at are people actually using Google less ?

And the TLDR is no . Google still has a monstrosely high that's not even a word monstrosely a ridiculously high share of search .

So I think all of us in the industry , whether you're in tech , whether you're in search , whether you're in marketing I think we all get caught in our LinkedIn bubble sometimes and we see , oh my God , everyone's using perplexity and everyone's . But you know it's Thanksgiving .

I don't know if this episode will probably air after Thanksgiving here in the US , but I challenge everyone to sit down at your holiday table of choice and go around the room and ask if someone has used perplexity and I almost guarantee that people are going to look at you like you have four noses , because not everyone is using it .

Everyone is still using Google . Google is figuring out how to embed AI with their AI overviews . They have unlimited resources . So I don't think that Google is going anywhere Now . Are they doing a lot in the AI space ? Absolutely . Are AIOs eating into traditional SEO traffic ? Absolutely .

So what we're trying to do now with our clients is help them to identify topics and keywords that are , you know , potentially not at risk , and so not to get too far down , you know , into the rabbit hole . But I think a lot of the traffic that we're seeing get siphoned off to AI overviews are top of funnel terms . So , example we're in Phoenix .

Is Phoenix safe , right , a term like that ? You know , top restaurants near the JW Marriott . That is a perfect query for an answer engine or an AIO is a perfect query for an answer engine or an AIO . But when you get to the bottom funnel , we're seeing a lot less bottom funnel terms appear in AI Interesting .

So they've tried to diversify , but really , because they've always been criticized as being a one-trick horse and they still , primarily , are reliant on that search business and given the fact , obviously with chatcom , I thought it was obviously very clever when ChatGPT acquired that you can type in chatcom now and get to ChatGPT .

It's like the fastest , quickest , easiest way to get there . Now they have an app . So with launching SearchGPT , I would say right now it's still a substandard experience to use ChatGPT for search compared to Google's results , and obviously Google's quickly trying to add in AI into their results . So there's an arms race happening here .

What is your take on how you think that'll play out in 2025 ? How significant do you think ChatGPT will eat into that search share ? Because it sounds to me , Jared , that you still see a future for Google . You're not writing them off yet , but clearly there's going to be a shift .

So I'm assuming that we're going to see a decrease in Google search activity as people are using more of these AI tools . But you tell me how do you see things playing out in 2025 ?

A grandmother or a grandfather who's planning a multi-gen trip ? Are they going to go into perplexity and do that and conduct that search ? Probably not . Will they go to Google ? Most likely . So I think it's very nuanced and that's what we try and help clients do in terms of understanding who is actually doing the search .

So we do a lot of different personas based on who's actually searching , based on their core cohorts , and I think it's you know what is that search and what is the intent . Search intent is very , very powerful .

And understanding that intent , which is sort of the next level , down from the actual words that are typed in but like , what is that person actually looking for ? Are they looking for a quick answer ? Are they looking to book something ? Are they looking for a list ? Are they looking for , um , you know , a video ? What is what ?

What type of content is that person looking for ? So all of these different variables come into search and all these different things need to be accounted for .

That obviously is important , for sure , but there's so many different aspects to our industry . So what are some of the other major developments that you're paying attention to , whether it be the clients you work with or just your overall view on the industry ? Again , you're someone that's super connected and very tuned in to everything that's going on .

So , yeah , what are some of the things that stand out to you for 2025 ?

We had this huge spike , this huge boom that really every sector of the industry took advantage of . Now we're kind of in this post-boom world , if I can say that , and a lot of clients of ours have had down years in 2024 versus 2023 . But then it becomes the fact of , like , what are you comparing revenue against ? Are you comparing it to 2023 ?

Because in that case , almost everyone's down . Are you comparing to 2019 ? In that case , you're probably still up . So I think if you're a revenue manager or if you're in the commercial space , at a travel brand , it becomes very , very tricky how to measure results and how to project results in the future , which obviously factor into your staffing and all these .

There's been lots of layoffs . I mean , I think Marriott just announced a huge cut . So all of these brands are trying to right size as much as I hate that term , but I think it's very true and they're all trying to find this happy medium .

I do think that 2025 , ai will come into more facets of an organization , so where 2024 brands are still just trying to make sense of it and everyone is , you know , when they're asked that question what are you doing with AI the common response you get is like , oh , we're doing a lot .

And then you ask a deeper question they can't really tell you what they're doing because they haven't really figured it out . 2025 , I think , will be different . I think it will start to be embedded more deeply every department and I think that will result , unfortunately , in some job loss , but that's yet to be seen .

But throughout the history of leisure travel , from crisis crisis , different destinations , emerging , new opportunities all of a sudden come to light , and I think it's one of the things that's happening now is that there is this sense that the revenge travel has subsided , that this like , kind of like , but there is going to be sustained travel activity with certain

demographics , including , you know , the baby boom generation . So you know , you're seeing private equity and , um , certainly , vc money coming into travel . There's . So it's , it's . It's really interesting there's .

There's always seems to be winners and losers and obviously accommodations had this incredible run for the last couple of years , with their revenue per night , their rev par , as it's referred to , hitting record highs and a lot of travelers getting so frustrated .

They can't get a hotel in New York for under $500 a night because they can't get short-term rental , because Airbnb is not an option .

I now have the pleasure to sit down with Michael Carfagini , who is the chief operatingating Officer at WingBuddy . I've got a chance to catch up with him over the last couple of days and keen to get his take on Focusrite 2024 . So welcome , michael , to Travel Trends . Good to have you here . Thanks so much Pleasure .

Yeah , so tell everyone what is WingBuddy , what do you guys do ?

And which one Did you go ? To Miami last year ? I was , yeah , fort Lauderdale last year , okay , cool . So what brings you back this year ? Obviously , partnerships , many opportunities .

For Canadians we're very familiar with this but also Americans when you book a trip down south , it's very easy , it's hassle-free , you think about very little . We're trying to make travel to Europe , the Middle East Asia , just as easy .

So it's quite broad , but some of the main components now , I'd say , really revolve around the overall customer experience , and that's everything from booking the trip with us , talking to some of our travel agents over the phone , being able to get service before their trip , having smooth flights , having smooth transfers and , ultimately , a very memorable experience .

My role touches all of that and obviously there's a financial component . We want to make sure that it's always at the best rate for everybody , but also one that makes sense for us so we can continue to offer exceptional travel experiences .

And then taking that feedback and doing something with it . And even better , what we do is we communicate back to these passengers later on so that they can know that what they shared with us through many different means is getting used to provide a much better experience .

So that's one of them , but another one that's evident especially now is using technology more effectively , making sure that it's in a way that just feels seamless and it goes with the hassle-free nature of a wing-buddy tour .

And then , maybe , on the sexier side , it could be something that we're hearing always around artificial intelligence and learning technology and having all that embed in a very seamless way . It's just something that we're always thinking about , but it always has to work for our end . Traveler .

But , given the brief chat we're having today here at Focusrite , I would like to make sure that people can find out more information about WingBuddy or connect with yourself . So how best for our listeners to do that ?

Are you interested in learning more about how AI is impacting the travel industry ? Well then , you have to check out travelaicom slash trends . Travel AI are the leaders in implementing AI across a range of exciting travel businesses , and they share and showcase many of the exciting developments on this page with our listeners .

Their team knows that AI is going to transform every industry on the planet , and the best companies today are integrating AI into all of their processes . So check out the latest developments at travelaicom slash trends and learn how to make your travel business more efficient . They're also on LinkedIn , pinterest and Twitter .

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They have a remarkable methodology that has actually been implemented by travelaicom , and they are a leading SEO agency globally and offer a range of resources a podcast of their own , a blog on their website , propelleccom that's P-R-O-P-E-L-L-I-Ccom . And don't forget to mention Travel Trends , for your Now back were just kids .

Well , you actually had booked out a cruise ship , and I think the first time I really remember chatting with you was the fact that I got invited to go on a cruise ship . It was in Miami , of course , and we got on this like three-hour Gilligan's Island tour and it was awesome , we had drinks and it was cool .

So that's when I got to know Al and I would see him at all the events and we actually tried to record last year and and unfortunately , I had some issues with a couple of the recordings and this was one of them . So I was gutted that I couldn't include Al in last year's summary .

So I was committed to make sure we had the opportunity again this year in 2024 . So , al , welcome back to Travel Trends .

Tell everyone a bit about what Nuve does , and your role there ?

We also help with payouts as well , so supplier payments or refunds to customers if something goes sideways with their travel plans , and we do focus on travel as vertical as well globally . So I run the team in North America and I've been helping build out the travel solution since I started about three years

ago .

Obviously the networking is this I imagine there's quite a few reasons that are consistent year over year , but were there any specific things as far as why you wanted to attend this year ?

You get decision makers just about everybody has a C in their title and you're speaking quite literally to the right person , which can be the challenge when you're in business development is locating the right person to have a conversation with , and typically that happens here . So that's why I've consistently come .

Is there something else that kind of stood out to you in terms of the content ?

The pandemic taught us a lot of lessons , specifically looking at from a payments lens , having a great relationship with your payments provider , having them there to support you through the tough times and the good times , is important , and I'm definitely seeing that here play out in conversations and just in the attendees in general .

I've been involved to some extent with payment solutions with various travel companies , but it's certainly not an area of expertise for me and it clearly is for you .

So I guess the first thing I would ask you is how does to the exact point you just made , which is that there are a number of payment companies here and we've been approached by a few , and we were actually considering maybe doing like a series on payments within travel , just to kind of break down this whole industry and help demystify it a bit , but tell us

how Nuve differentiates itself from other payment providers ?

During the pandemic , a lot of payment companies ran away from travel companies . They wanted to get that risk and the risk associated with the delayed delivery of the product , which is travel to the consumer . They wanted that off their books . After they saw everything , stop , nuve ran in . So we saw a burning building and we ran in because we saw an opportunity .

We saw an opportunity to partner and to help these merchants come out of the pandemic stronger and as a business , we've been executing on that for a number of years and , quite honestly , that's one of the reasons why I started there to build something new .

And these companies that you're working with and I certainly saw this and I won't call out any specific companies , but I certainly saw this panic mode where I thought we were friends , I thought we were colleagues , I thought we did do business together .

So you're only around for the good times and all of a sudden now you're changing our terms , you're backing away from us . You're like and and they did and . So a lot of people had to make tough decisions for a variety of reasons .

So it's actually reassuring to hear your approach , because I guess the smartest companies that I've seen that have succeeded post-pandemic were the ones that actually chose to invest during that time . They continued technology projects . They knew that the other side was eventually going to come and it was going to be boom time , and so they are well positioned for it .

But tell us a little bit more about how Nuve does differentiate itself , aside from having a travel team and expertise around travel . Is it the fees ? Is it the technology ?

Shane from Microsoft , and I've been chatting with Lucy and Jillian over the last couple of days . I was keen for them to join this podcast to share a little bit about what they're working on , but Lucy is also a podcaster , so we'll talk about that . So welcome to the Travel Trends , lucy . Thank you so much for having me For sure , tell everyone about Condatus .

What is it you guys do ?

But basically what Condatus does is we're identity and access management specialists , iam , which was a first for me in this role . I have you know , my experience in marketing has been in travel .

I used to work for Skyscanner and then Femtech , and I work for an identity and access management company , and a lot of my friends and family are like and that means what ? So it was a learning curve .

But basically , condatus helps implement identity and access management solutions so single sign-on , internal movement of staff , digital passports , which is really cool and we're a Microsoft partner , so we work very closely with Microsoft in implementing what's called their EntraSuite , which is all to do with access .

We also are in the finance industry , as well as government and higher education , and what I learned in identity and access management is , if you think about it , you're probably accessing , using software to access every single one of your apps , your bank accounts , so it spans a lot .

But yeah , we're here at Focusrite specifically , obviously , for the travel sector , and there's a lot of really exciting stuff going on in regards to identity in this space .

I was thrilled to see Jillian , your colleague , going on stage with him and having this conversation , because it couldn't be more important in terms of one of the big trends in 2025 , with people taking their data privacy very seriously and actually being proactive , of managing themselves , as opposed to just allowing them you know , their data to be sold by different

companies . So tell us a little bit about what Jillian's talking about and Condatus' overall position on this topic .

Actually , I'm going to reject the essential cookies , so it is very timely , and so Gillian and Shane are going to be on main stage talking about that . The acronym is SSI , which is self-sovereign identity and AI . So the idea of self-sovereign identity is the shift in that institutions don't necessarily own your data .

You become the owner of your own data , and it's this idea of selective disclosure where we should be in a position where we can choose and decide how much information about ourselves we want an organization or institution to have access to and for how long . So also being like , actually , I think you've had enough the idea .

The best example that they give for self-sovereign identity is you need to prove your age to get into a bar , and we're like showing our address . You know the date of birth , specific . You don't need to know what my birthday is , you just need to know if I'm of age to come into your establishment and so the idea of SSI is .

I have a verified credential , maybe from the government , that says , yeah , you don't need to worry about it . That person's of age , that's all you need to know . So that's obviously a very simplified version that means for the future of how travelers interact with the many touch points that they will experience in one given trip .

I think the fact you take control I mean , obviously , the name in itself , like sovereign , it is very powerful , yeah , but it is also incredibly important given what we've seen with the EU regulations various states like California taking privacy more seriously and also customers embracing it and expecting it , like companies like Apple , given their rivalry with Facebook .

But companies like Apple that take privacy very seriously , and Microsoft has really embraced it as well . So it's interesting that you guys are partners . So tell me , what came first ? Candatus was already working on this , Microsoft was a partner and you continued . How did you guys end up collaborating on this initiative ?

But we're not resellers , if that makes sense . So Condatus is actually founded on the Isle of Skye , I might add , which is just like a nice touch point . But basically you know we've worked with Microsoft products , that Condatus has won awards for being specialists with their um , decentralized solutions , which is verified id um . You know that .

I just think they recognize that we have very smart people that are very good at it sort of displaying and presenting the benefits of what , the interest among many things that they create and build well , tell us about a few of the clients on the travel side that work with Condatas , to give us a bit of context to who partners with you .

On the travel side . I don't know how much I'm allowed to say oh , it's in the middle east that is very new and long and in the middle of the desert .

But um , emphasis on the word innovative in the sense that that the project is trying to reimagine travel , is the kind of saying we like to to use in terms of what I mentioned earlier how you align all these multiple touch points to really make a seamless experience for a traveler , and how can you use identity to facilitate that .

So , instead of well , okay , this is what Gillian and I were talking about earlier . The benchmark for travel is that your flight leaves on time . Like a good travel experience is that your flight wasn't delayed , like we really don't have a high bar for what a seamless and awesome travel experience is .

And also the fact is the travel some people think okay , you have the flight for me to be , but actually it's so much beyond that . It's the part where you're going to your hotel , checking in , maybe booking into some amenities .

You might be with your family , but also you might want feather pillows or a particular room or ground floor room , and this idea that , if we're allowing so much of our data to be out in the world , let's leverage technology to work with that and do something really good with it to go okay .

Well , let's get ahead of this individual coming who likes all these things which we call profiles and preferences and use the identity in the form of a digital wallet . It could be anything to really be like . We know this individual , and to a point where you might not even need to interact with any person . You get there .

Your digital identity or your credential gets you a car from the airport and knows how many people are in person . You get there , your , your , your digital identity or your credential lets you you know , gets you a car from the airport and knows how many people are in your party .

He gets to your hotel , knows this is your room number , checks you in through the door and Jillian has a really cool a video demo that's going to be playing that kind of highlights , highlights an example of that . So it's it's exciting , but it's a big task and I think that's the feedback we've been getting from people we've spoken to at Focusrite .

It's kind of like , okay , where do you start with that ?

So , yeah , tell us where you think we are on that journey and , I guess , what you expect from 2025 in terms of your business and the overall consumer awareness of this new technology .

.

I think it's very early and when I've spoken to people , especially as well on the podcast I have that discusses this tech amongst many industries , it's kind of this concept of fear of adoption or reluctance of adoption I use this is probably a better word just kind of like nobody everyone's reluctant to be the first to try something new and so different , because

I always say the saying if it ain't broke , don't fix it . But actually if we didn't , if we had that mindset , then you know we wouldn't have cloud and like all this cool stuff that subsequently isn't now normal to us , but when first came out we were all like what the heck is this ? Why do we need this ?

So I think that's certainly the position right now and , in terms of potential trends of coming out with this , I think we'll see smaller examples or first attempts and very basic form to just even get the buy-in for people to be like . You know , actually this is a really clever concept and I mentioned already .

You know , if you think about even a hotel , there are so many other industry bodies that are technically a different company , that have to interact with each other . But you know how are you doing that ? You just it's very complicated right now , like why not use new interesting tech to to make it more seamless ?

And everything I've just been talking about in terms of , you know , creating one seamless experience across a multitude of different organizational bodies is how do you make them all work together if they've all got different technology ? So Condat has built their own product . It's called Senda . So Condat has built their own product .

It's called Senda , and it's basically it could either be considered the jam or the jelly or the pieces of bread , but it basically brings all these different technologies together to make them work together , but also creates if you've got all these different institutions , how do you then make sure these institutions are all aligned on who they can trust and what's

considered a verifiable you know ? Oh yeah , that's from this company , they're good . We don't need to go through all the steps to approve them . Access to something Right ? So it's all about interoperability with all this new multitude of technology . So they brought me in on that interoperability with all this new multitude of technology .

So they brought me in on that and , candidly , when I came in there , I was like what is this ? Like , what am I doing ? Like I've been in marketing , as I mentioned , in different industries and this is the first one . I was like this is a real head scratcher because it's so new .

Yeah , but it when you really get into the weeds of it , it's really cool and exciting and I hope I'm giving it justice , probably not because it's been a whirlwind few days .

very like I won't say simple topic , but when you just have a dialogue with someone , it just makes things much easier to wrap your head around . Have a dialogue with someone , it just makes things much easier to wrap your head around .

So I just thought , okay , let's just try and get other really interesting , smart , intelligent people in this space and hop on , if you will . Essentially a call , because that's kind of what we're doing . We could be on the phone right now , yeah um , and just much nicer to be in person .

Oh , yeah , that is one thing I do wish I could do , and and so we . I say I'm using adverted commas just wrapped on season one , and we're thinking about season two , and that certainly I'd love to do .

But yeah , so I was just thinking it's not industry specific , it's also not product specific , it's just inviting people who have really interesting experience and getting their perspective on this type of technology perhaps .

Or I had a really interesting conversation Actually it's the last episode with someone called Amanda Fennell , who is a C-suite at Identity Company but she's archaeologist turned cybersecurity lead Cool so that was a really fun conversation .

I just just a way in which somebody who's maybe not got loads of technical knowledge to hear just different perspectives on everything and anything to do with verification of an identity or a product or a solution , you know because it gets spam loads , so that's where it came from .

But , jeff , tell everyone a bit about your background , both at Forbes and the work that you've done , which , as you highlighted to me , is quite impressive .

. About 11 years ago I got a call from an editor in New York . I'd written a book called Marketing to Millennials . It was based on research I'd done with the Boston Consulting Group . I was the first crazy person 15 years ago to do a public study of millennials with BCG .

Along the way I ended up paying attention to trends and turning that into a bit of a work stream consulting kind of work . And then I got involved in the live event space with TFL Group Some people would know Tickets for Less and it is a really exciting space , much like travel .

And so that is sort of how I spend my time working on some things for Forbes , working a little bit part-time with TFL Group and having a little fun , and I'm fine with Gen Z Zed Zee .

Since I run travel trends , I find the conversation about trends really interesting , even if , uh , if I trace back to some of the boom bust and echo written by a famous economist about the baby boom generation and when you look at these major trends , what got you into this space ?

I called a friend of a friend at the Boston Consulting Group . I said , hey , let's study millennials . And she's like not sure what you're talking about . Oh , by the way , I don't have any money . Could you pay for my study ? She's like are you crazy ? We don't know each other . I'm like , well , just think about it . Nobody studied millennials as consumers .

Nobody's talking about it yet , but in a year or two it's going to be the biggest conversation on the planet . And so that led to this big research study with the Boston Consulting Group . That led to marketing to millennials . That led to marketing to millennials with kids , marketing to Gen Z or Zed .

And then two additional books on the intersection of innovation , purpose and sustainability . And thinking more about your brand as a verb and , I think , one of the interesting things , if you look at a really high-performing brand , whether that's Nike or Uber or otherwise a lot of these brands use their brand as a verb .

In other words , they take action Instead of talking about what they're doing . They do what they're doing . That's a longer discussion . Maybe we come back and have another episode using your brand as a verb . But I ended up having dozens of research studies done with various partners and I turned those studies often into books .

So if you ever have trouble sleeping , pick up a copy of like Marketing to Millennials . You might get a chapter or two in and it'll slow down . Now , the last book on purpose advantage is not a research heavy book . It's a fast read and the idea there was it's more informed by the trends I'm watching and the trend there was really about .

If you can make money and do good , that's great , but if your financial model and doing good are in conflict , it doesn't work . So you have to be able to make money and do good , because there's a lot of people who think , well , you have to give back , you have to do good , you have to have a sustainability strategy , a purpose strategy .

I do believe that , but it's got to make money . It's got to make money or there's a conflict with shareholders and stakeholders . So the consulting space was fun . I've sort of retired from that space . And TFL Group is amazing . It's a live event software and it's been a lot of fun .

My partner , his claim to fame , besides being the backup tree in his elementary school musical , was that he signed Patrick Mahomes to a contract a couple hours after he was drafted as a backup quarterback to the Kansas City Chiefs and one of over 100 venues or sport team kind of partners for us would be the Kansas City Chiefs , so we have a lot of relationships

in sports and live events .

Meet a bunch of people , and it's been fantastic . I've gotten a fabulous interview on AI . I've gotten some interesting conversations with some of the major brands that are here . I have an interview later today with one of the big credit card issuers . So lots of interesting people .

This conference is chock full of experts , so perfect spot for me to meet a few people .

So just give everyone a brief overview of Gen Z , if you wouldn't mind , so everyone knows exactly the generation we're talking about . Yeah , and then let's get into some of the trends that you're seeing , as they relate to live events and travel .

They want to take in everything the world and the US has to offer in terms of travel . They want to experience all kinds of live events . In fact , if it didn't end up on my Insta account , did that travel experience or live event even happen ? Was it real ?

And the answer is , of course , no , and of course , I can get all kinds of interesting news from TikTok . It's a news source , isn't it ? So Gen Z is really at the forefront of applied technology , which I think will be really interesting when we think about travel and AI , which I'm sure is a topic that's not far away from the center of the bullseye .

At the same time , they're very much old souls . They're very pragmatic . When I did these big studies , they're very much old souls . They're very pragmatic . When I did these big studies , they talked about saving for the future . They talked about things that young people don't talk about .

They want to save the world , which is why I briefly mentioned that book that came out of the research on Gen Z later on purpose and sustainability . But you have to be able to make money and deliver something . They're not going to just pay a super huge premium . I would also say the big thing to think about when you think about Gen Z .

They're entering the workforce like crazy . They have different expectations and they're having babies . And I can tell you from doing a lot of research , the number one thing that changes behavior is not income , it's not education , it's babies . It's not married or unmarried . Forget whether they're married or unmarried , they don't care .

That's not a step in the process . The journey doesn't require marriage anymore , but babies change a lot of things . Probably don't have time to go through all of that , but for those of you who are parents , you understand and how much it changed our lives .

So , given , um , the specialty you have around , uh , identifying trends for , for gen z , let's I guess let's talk about live events , because one of the things that you talk about babies that , um , a few of my friends had pointed out to me that they predict that when taylor swift has a baby , there's going to be this massive baby boom because , she somehow ,

somehow got this generation into football and like she's just , uh , I've just come from toronto where she's doing six shows at the moment and , um , I've saw the taylor swift mania up close , including one of my colleagues , melanie , who does partnerships , who went to the show , and it's amazing what people were spending . So live events .

I mean , there's been a lot written in the last year about the impact of music and live events on tourism . I mean changing airplanes , change fees and what they've had to do when Taylor's adjusted her concert . So hotels , so it's incredible the economic benefit these cities are realizing and travel is benefiting from these events .

So tell us a bit more , given it was your background as well in the travel space . Yeah , yeah , yeah , how do you see live events in 2025 ?

If you're there for a couple nights , if you're going to be in Toronto for a couple nights , you're going to take in some experiences . So I think there's a lot of folks who take in live events , not just Taylor right , like , maybe I want to see a show on Broadway , maybe I want to see my favorite sports team live .

So there's a lot of overlap between travel and live events . The interesting thing I did a piece in Forbes pretty recently on the NFL . Taylor Swift's impact on the NFL is mind blowing . Is that right ? Oh yeah , like Gen Z and the NFL , they are just crushing it . The NFL couldn't have choreographed a better marketing campaign than Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey .

I almost wore my Travis Kelsey jersey to this interview . I am a Chiefs fanatic . Sorry folks , I live in Kansas City when I'm not here in Phoenix .

But I think the thing to think about is Janis Joplin crooned for her Mercedes-Benz and there's an era of consumers who's older , who aspired to own a Rolex watch , and they aspired for status symbols that were products .

Today's status symbols experiences that could be a culinary experience , that could be a travel experience , that could be a live event experience , and they consume a lot more of it .

You and I consume statistically fewer travel and live events than they do , and when I say that that could be just a getaway , that could be like a local concert , taylor Swift's obviously a very significant investment for many people , but they consume a lot of that kind of content , and so the innovators are going to win and the innovators are going to be in

live events . The innovators are going to be travel . So the innovators are going to win and the innovators are going to be in live events , and the innovators are going to be travel . They're going to democratize these industries and make it affordable and accessible to consume , and when they do that , they're going to scale .

They bought , and I've seen other companies do something similar around Taylor Swift . They're giving away massive amounts of tickets . They're spending a significant amount to acquire these tickets just to be associated , just for the halo effect of offering travel agents the opportunity to go see Taylor Swift , to create positive brand associations .

So I mean , that's a very small marketing tactic , if you will , but yeah , what would your recommendations be to travel companies who are trying to tap into this opportunity ?

So think about a Venn diagram where you sort of look at where you're operationally excellent , where you have brand equity , where you have brand permission , what are the trends that are relevant to your brand , and then how can you innovate in favor of that consumer ? What is their travel needs state ? What is their live event needs state ? What can you do that ?

And so you've seen some of that happen , like you know . For example , music festivals . Now there are some really popular music festivals . They draw a lot of tourism . You know , like Austin City Limits I haven't been , but like I know a lot of people go I'm sure there are lots of other festivals that you could use as an example .

So , again , I think , as consumers want more and more experiences , which were constrained in COVID , so there's a very high demand coming out and I think we're out , and it's going to sort of , you know , go to a natural equilibrium , which is still going to be very high demand coming out , and I think we're out , and it's going to sort of go to a natural

equilibrium , which is still going to be very high . You have to think as a brand . How can I do something that's relevant and interesting ? If you're copying someone else , you're just going to be a loser in terms of what's going to happen . I think , for your brand you have to really think about the white space opportunities . So do I have any predictions ?

Not per se , but if I was working on that assignment , what is that brand permission for your brand and where are the trends that are most relevant for you ?

If I was a small travel brand and I'm focused on , you know , sustainable adventures , then , like you know , how do I build that into the excursion of the week trip where I get to have some experiences that are really unique , uh , and personalized kinds of experiences .

Um , one of the things I just would highlight to our listeners I gave a keynote recently at a conference in Iceland and I know you do a lot of public speaking as well , jeff , and obviously when I was preparing for that , I was getting some additional research together to help understand this .

You know the great wealth transfer that's about to occur from the silent generation and the baby boomers to Gen Z and millennials , and one of the things that was highlighted . So one of the reasons I'm bullish on travel is because there's this about $80 trillion that is going to be inherited .

Interestingly , if you look back , like World Economic Forum had the stats that the baby boomers themselves inherited less than $4 trillion , which just shows you what's happened in the last 50 or 60 years , compared to passing down about $80 trillion in wealth .

And clearly the first thing that all of these boomers are going to do and I want them to do this travel as much as possible . See the world spend it . You've earned it , but at some point that money will be passed down and some of those travelers are sorry , the next Gen Z generation .

The interesting stat that I had read in this report and then shared is that Gen Z will be five times wealthier than they are today by virtue of these inheritances , because not everyone has been on the property ladder . Obviously , you're very fortunate to have two homes .

I mean , a lot of younger people are struggling to get into the property market to begin with , are struggling to get into the property market to begin with , but as the next generation passes down , so it's one thing to highlight that Gen Z they travel more frequently , they spend more of their disposable income on travel and in the very near future , despite

difficult circumstances like my dad passing away , there is also the reality there's going to be inheritance , so there'll be more opportunities for them to be able to travel , but yeah anyway .

We have an awful lot of women who are making more money than historically women have made , which is fantastic . That also opens up a lot more opportunities for people to travel . I mean , there is some connectivity between having some disposable income and travel and live events .

I think the property issue is a complicated issue for sure , because people historically have built their sort of base foundation around owning a home and I think just personal bias , home ownership is something I really want to see democratized , but I think , when it comes to trends , it's sort of taking in everything the world has to offer .

So do I want to see every state in the US ? That was a theme we saw in the research . When it comes to trends , it's sort of taking in everything the world has to offer . So , you know , do I want to see every state in the US ? That was a theme we saw in the research . Do I want to get to every country ? Like you mentioned , iceland and Canada ?

Yes , I do , and so to the extent it's affordable and accessible . And accessible means that I can get there and get back in a reasonable period of time . If it took three weeks to do the trip to Iceland , there are a lot of people who can't afford to take the three weeks .

But if you can get from Toronto to Iceland , have that five-day experience , it's amazing , it's affordable , it opens up more opportunity . So as we think about the consumer , we have to think not just about the experience but the timeframe . What is the need state they have and are we thinking about creating opportunities that meet those need states ?

And I think the brands that have less equity in old schemas are going to be the biggest winners because they're not going to wait . So I'm very excited about some of the innovation that will happen in the future driven by AI , because those brands have like no equity in old schemas .

This was literally synthesized from all these fascinating conversations like we're having now with experts and thought leaders like yourself sharing their insights with me , and I kind of synthesize it together . One of them I highlighted was purpose-driven marketing .

Um is a key trend that most companies need to be paying attention to , because the companies that really have figured that out are growing at a much higher rate , because people are connected to what they do , uh , in a much deeper level .

So , and and gen z has , uh , some interesting characteristics and , again , we don't have enough time to go through all of them , but I would love to know how you see the Gen Z impacting brand strategy , and one of the things I know that you're writing about or across is this concept of zero party data , which I have talked about with Brennan Bliss .

Propelex is one of our sponsors of our show , and it was one of the things we got into was the importance and understanding what zero party data is . So , yeah , tell us how you see brand strategy being impacted by this next generation .

It has to be profitable for your brand and then can your brand solve one of the SDGs ? And if those things line up then you get a great flywheel effect and if they don't , then you have to think harder . So you know , if purpose is that North Star , so what is that purpose ? What is that sustainability and what is that economic engine ?

At a simplified level , those are the three biggest circles . Then you start to overlay other circles , like the trends you know on the zero party data . That kind of came out of the TFL group and the live event space . That kind of came out of the TFL group and the live event space .

So many brands in travel and so many brands in the live event industry have a ton of behavioral data . I mean , I have your credit card , I have your app on my phone for the airline and the hotel and the this and the , that you know exactly where I am , what I've spent .

Yet you don't ask me just one or two questions about what inspires me to customize and personalize the journey , and that zero party data is going to be tomorrow's tipping point for the brands that understand that it needs to be a little more about the consumer and a little bit about what less about , like what I can push in front of them to try to generate a

commission on a partnership sale or something of that nature . So I I'm a big fan of what I feel like the um opportunity is , and certainly at TFL group or you know , we're thinking real hard about zero party data because , uh , the inspiration around live events and whatnot is important . But I think that's very similar for travel brands .

Like you know what inspires me , what gets me fired up , and you know I'm excited to see what brands sort of move forward in this space .

I think the AI brands are probably going to get there first , even though they don't have the database of people who already have subscribed to their mobile app and their credit card , just because I think they have less equity in the internal systems that fuel the engine .

Yeah , that's a little bit of a long answer , but if I'm betting , I'm betting on the people who haven't got the department . That's already sort of moving in one direction .

But what are some of the other major trends ? Not specific to Gen Z , but just you're here at Focusrite . Obviously you're getting a lot of benefit from it . It's your first time being here , you're having lots of meetings , but clearly you have a good internal compass when you're kind of evaluating a landscape to figure out what's coming next .

So what are some of the things that Jeff is paying attention to as it relates to the travel industry in 2025 ?

I also think we're going to see some significant blue ocean thinking coming through the AI and travel space . I don't know who the winners or losers will be . I don't have a point of view other than I think that category will be disruptive and interesting . I still think there's a strong demand for assistance in travel .

So , like you know , especially like agents and people who have expertise to the extent that they can do something interesting , I think that's very robust . I think there's gonna be strong demand for travel both internationally and in the US , as long as the economy stays strong . I really see travel continuing down a path of high discretionary spend and beyond that .

I'm kind of waiting for one of the credit card companies to buy one of the airline loyalty programs . It's just one of those wild things that I feel like it's going to happen . I know I don't know why , but there are just too many benefits to the credit card company . So will a credit card company even own an airline ? It could happen , I don't know .

I do want to make sure that all of our listeners can be ready to find these articles as they get released , because obviously we're going to do some collaborations together . So , yeah , jeff , tell everyone how they can follow up with you , find your books and also connect with you for future articles .

Dan , really interesting discussion and I'm going to come back at you with some questions for a few of the articles I'm working on , because I'm not going to let you ask all the good questions today .

That's really what made this so special is all these amazing conversations , the number of people that reached out that wanted to participate and be on the show . We're so appreciative . We get several requests a day to be on the show and we're trying to make sure that we can accommodate as many people and have the most interesting conversations .

That's why we've done a number of panels and it's actually why we started doing these deep dives in season four , which clearly resonated with our audience as we expanded into new areas . And I also wanted to acknowledge our theme sponsors . Obviously , we have our title sponsors to thank Propellic Travel , ai , stay 22 , and Northern Soul .

You've heard their ads throughout the season and we look forward to having them back as part of next season . And we have a number of other sponsors joining us as well , which we're thrilled about .

But I just wanted to highlight that Tour Radar Flight Center , jeb Commerce and Satisfy Labs all kindly sponsored one of our series that matched , obviously , their business .

So we're constantly trying to find the best way to put the best content together and then find the right commercial model to match , and I think this season really showcased how that can be achieved and I think we're very well positioned for season five .

So thank you so much to all of our partners and sponsors and again to our amazing listeners for joining us on this journey and making the show as popular it is and sharing it with friends , and please definitely continue to do that as we go into season five . I'm so looking forward to bringing the next season to you .

I know the rest of the team is as well . We've got a lot of it prepared .

So make sure that you're registered on TravelTrendsPodcastcom for our newsletter to get the updates and definitely keep checking out our social channels , because we're going to continue to put out clips and highlights more and more in season five and beyond as we leverage more of the video that we're capturing at events for these in-person conversations .

So definitely check us out there and thank you all again . It means the world to me . I love doing this and I can't wait to continue and bring you guys season five . So thanks again and until next time , safe travels .