Key Trends for 2025: Live from Phocuswright

For any of you that listened to my interview with the managing director for Focusrite , pete Como , will know that I think it is one of the best , if not the best , travel industry conference , and one of the things that's always stood out to me over the years is everything I see and hear at Focusrite tends to play out over the next six months , which is why

we're launching this as the travel trends for 2025 for everyone to pay attention to , because the people that I spoke to have so many fascinating stories about how their businesses are evolving and changing .

The first one on here is the CMO for MindTrip , michelle , who is one of the most remarkable people I've got to know in the last year , and their business is on an incredible success trajectory with getting funding from Amex Ventures . You'll hear more about that in our first episodes of Season 5 , where we talk about investing in travel .

We also have Ben San , who runs Tour Optima , formerly Curated Planet , that has gone from strength to strength this year as they've launched their white-label tour solutions app to multi-day tour operators . Tour operators .

You're going to hear from Marius Nagand , who runs iWander , who's on a major partnership with City Sightseeing that will launch this year for hop-on hop-off experiences where people can now use an AI guide . You're going to hear from a professor at NYU , the CEO of Super Logic .

You're going to hear from our friend , andrew Lockhead , who runs Stay22 , about their journey , and many more . So that is all just on episode one , but we've broken this into two parts because we had more than five hours of amazing conversations at Focusrite in Phoenix and you're going to hear from eight people today .

And then our final episode , which will launch in just a couple of days , will feature all of the remaining highlights , including Charlotte Lamp Davies from the ITB and a number of other amazing people in our part two .

So I want to make sure that everyone's listening to this also finds our updates on our social channels , because we're going to be posting clips and highlights from all of these conversations on our Instagram , linkedin and YouTube channel .

So be sure to check out highlights from those conversations and don't forget to sign up for our newsletter to be notified when new episodes go live and especially our season five launch coming up . Thanks again to all of our partners and sponsors and I hope you enjoy this episode .

Thanks again to the Focusrite team for inviting us , including us and making us part of the family . We are very excited to continue our collaborations in 2025 . And here we go . This is the first episode of the Focusrite Highlights . Welcome to 2025 . I'm thrilled to be sitting down with Michelle Denagin , who is the CMO of Mindtrip .

I've had the chance to get to know Michelle over the past year . I've seen her at a number of conferences . This is her first Focusrite , so welcome Michelle . Great to have you here .

There was this amazing article in Focus Wire coming into this event and it's actually connected to why you're here and one of the big developments .

So I know I really want to talk about that , but , given some of our listeners are likely hearing the name MindTrip for the first time , I would love if you wouldn't mind just giving a bit of an overview of the company , the startup that you have been working on .

It's a pretty big swath of things , but we think that AI really gives us the opportunity to connect all of those silos into one very dynamic and very interactive consumer experience , and so the company's been around for about 18 months .

We went live publicly in May of this year and , to your point , we've released a lot of new things out into the public since then , and we keep on rolling .

both as a marketing leader and the work that you've done in the automotive industry You've written a book there's so much for us to cover . But what I wanted to ask you specifically is the founding team . Obviously , that's always key to a success . You have the funding , you have the idea , you've got the team and you've got timing .

There's kind of those four fundamentals and I see Mindtrip having all four of those . But tell us a little bit about the team , because I think what would be interesting for listeners and I'm sure it's one of the things that stood out to investors is that you guys have worked together before and had great success .

The four previous have been very successful and a lot of the team I would say 90% plus of the team comes from one of those past lives that Andy led and the majority of us actually came from a company called Roadster , where we built digital commerce solutions for the automotive space .

So think of online car buying at the dealership , so you don't have to actually go in , and so we've all known each other . I mean , I came from that space , I was in automotive for almost 20 years , as was Rudy with an I , and we all came from working together for over a decade before coming into MindTrip .

So the synergy , the vision , the values are all shared and we really understand . We might be a little seasoned , but we look at that as a positive because we understand how to work together . We understand that there's evolutions and pivots and how to make a company successful .

But also I want to ask you the question that I know you've come up against many times is why trip planner ?

Because I think it's been highlighted to you from so many different investors there's a graveyard of trip planners and , as Michelle knows , I'm actually I'm very bullish on MindTriprip and I'm also a strong believer that this technology and the power of having AI .

I think we're in the very first innings of I'm a baseball fan , so I use that sports reference , but we're early in the first inning with what AI is going to , how it's going to transform travel and I see what MindTrip is doing as being the next generation of travel experiences . But yeah , tell us why travel and what the feedback has been to be like .

You guys don't know travel and you're doing a trip planner .

Most of them are engineers , some of them come from Google , stripe , linkedin , like you name it , and , in fact , our lead developer led Gmail at Google with like thousands of developers , but Andy worked with him at one point in his lifetime and he's part of the MindTrip team too , so they all got together .

This is even before I got involved and looked at what was happening with Gen AI and said this is super cool .

You know , it was when ChatGPT just hit the market and Dolly was around and they were like let's do something consumer facing with this , because most of what's happening right now is people are dabbling , people are using it for their own efficiency gains , but we'd love to do consumer applications , so what could we do ?

And so they were sitting around thinking about different industries , because we've never really stayed in one . You know , andy started his career in fashion . I personally have been in real estate and automotive and online data . There's so many things , so many things . Real estate and automotive , and online dating there's so many things , so many things .

So the reason travel was selected was because , one , we're avid travelers I think everybody probably says that but two , because it is so fragmented and the journey is so long . It was just a great industry to attack when it came to using this new technology in order to do something really unique , and so that was why travel was selected .

But we never shy away from entering new categories . You know , I think that one of our superpowers is that we're avid learners . We love to come to things like this , meet as many people as possible , understand where the bodies are buried and learn from all of that and still innovate and develop and grow .

So that's really why travel was selected in the first place . The other question that you asked was around trip planning , and you're right . Everywhere we turn , we're like ooh , trip planning ? There's a graveyard of companies that have tried to do that , and what we typically tell people is trip planning is only like a sliver of the travel journey for consumers .

So there's that piece , and we are actually tackling so many components , which I know is ambitious , and people also look at that and might roll their eyes like wow , like that is a lot , why are you doing so much ? But we believe we're in a moment of time with artificial intelligence to be able to stitch all those silos together .

So we've actually been toying more with a very ambitious category of super app than trip planning , because we think there's this huge opportunity and it's not just for these big vacations that we're all planning across the world , it could be for everyday experiences to have something in your pocket when , like my husband and I , just instituted date night every Saturday

night and if you're listening to this and you're married , you know that is a big deal .

It's actually making recommendations based on your previous experiences and what it's learned to make recommendations that maybe even a good friend wouldn't know you as well to make these incredible , insightful suggestions . I wanted to talk as well about where you're all based . Obviously , you mentioned about the team , the 12 founders , mainly around the Valley area .

You're , of course , in Los Angeles , and so one of the big developments with your team , as you have launched you mentioned 18 months in the . You had an initial round of funding .

You launched in May and you initially launched B2C , and one of the other developments , when I saw you a few months ago , was preparing for B2B and B2B partnerships , which obviously is a very clever approach and , as you've seen , in this industry there's not only a big opportunity in the B2B side .

But one of the things I wanted to highlight and get your take on is that you launched B2C . You've expanded to B2B , but my understanding even though some people have all of a sudden seen the shift to B2B . It's not actually a pivot to B2B . You're doing B2B as well .

So tell us a little bit about , I guess , the B2C launch and then let's get into what's happening now with B2B .

But I thought I'd at least highlight to our listeners so I wasn't going to ask a question that is like you pivoted , because no , actually it's more nuanced than that .

And what excites me , I have to say , michelle , is I actually think that as you navigate the B2B side , the B2C is going to come back into focus in almost perfect timing , where the technology will be at a point where consumers can really benefit from it . So yeah , tell us a little bit about the journey of the platform .

And one of the things that happened it actually happened before we even launched to the public , which is kind of crazy is we started to get inbound questions from destinations , from media companies , from travel advisors , saying we have seen what you're doing , even though it's on a wait list and it's kind of behind the scenes at the time and we would love to

have it for ourselves , like how do we do that ? And so we knew early on that we were going to be able to expand into what we call B2B2C , which is how do we take all of these companies who have all of this incredible inspiration ?

By the way , and that is probably our biggest aha in this whole industry is how much inspirational content exists around the internet that is not actionable at all .

Maybe a link offsite to book something , but not something that somebody could actually take those amazing recommendations and streamline it into a trip plan for themselves to go on that you know whatever is being recommended .

And so we started to talk to destinations at first , because they were , you know , most of the inbound was from the destination marketing organizations and we started to realize this amazing consumer platform that we created could be easily embedded into any business that has this inspirational content on their website .

And so you're right in the sense that it all comes back around , because we have , right now , about seven Lighthouse customers live with Mindtrip embedded , so everything that we do on the consumer-facing site can be done on one of these destination websites . But think about it also from distribution right .

We are embedding MindTrip into as much content that consumers can consume on the Internet about travel including , by the way , social media and other places they go for inspiration , and so MindTrip , in our vision , is going to be everywhere and it will come back , because when it comes to on-trip experiences , as we're building this app for on-trip experiences , they

could plan it anywhere and then have it in their pocket and pull MindTrip out . They're not going to have an app for every single destination or every media company . They're going to have one app for that on-trip experience and that will be MindTrip , and so it all it very much connects together .

But we're very excited to be working with these destinations , and there's a very specific reason because we know as good as it is to have artificial intelligence and being able to scan the web for all this information on all of these locations and also to have our own knowledge base , which is what the MindTrip for Consumer platform is built on .

We have about 7 million points of interest in our knowledge base that we sort of supplement or augment the LLM information on , so we can do things like not show a closed restaurant as an example , but now , working with these destinations they are such local experts in where they live , with all their businesses we are augmenting what we actually can display when you

come on to a destination's website with their content . So you have three layers of sources that are really refining . They are the ones who know the super secret hidden gems .

They're the ones who know the road closure that nobody would know unless you lived there , and so to be able to surface up that type of meaningful data is so valuable to the end consumer when they're traveling to a destination . So we're really excited about that third layer . One of our partners calls it a pyramid .

Right , it's like you've got the LLM at the bottom , you've got the mind trip knowledge base and you have everything that the destination already knows about that location .

Obviously , you've got a great opportunity to expand their marketing reach , give them incredible insight . So I was watching the video .

I was telling Michelle last night , when we first got a chance to see each other at the conference , how much I love the launch video that you had created and you guys are very much operating , as I understand , even though with your funding raised , like a bootstrap startup , like the video that I was so impressed with , you proceeded to tell me you didn't use an

agency . It was someone's wife that actually did the voiceover , like it was like you guys are . Clearly you've got a way of working that works and you guys continue to .

So tell us a little bit about that video , how it came together and obviously , for people listening to this , it's mindtripai and MindTrip there's for creators and for business , and obviously what we're chatting about right now is the for business solution , which I'm convinced is going to be a game changer for MindTrip , and then it's all going to come back around to

the consumer angle and you can successfully navigate both . But yeah , tell us a little bit more about what you've launched and how partners can reach out and connect with you to get involved .

And we're like , no , no , no , the team inside the building , the virtual building , did this because we're very blessed . I mean , a lot of our founders are UX designers and engineers and most of my team on the marketing side have been with me for a very long time , so we really do know how I call it .

Push , you know , punch above our weight , so to speak , when it comes to launching those things . So we feel very fortunate for that . But you know , the MindTrip for business product , like I said , is embedding everything that MindTrip has onto their website .

You know a lot of the destinations are looking to be able to give their consumers that are exploring their destination the tools to be able to build itineraries .

So they get this incredible capability to take any piece of their content , extract all of the recommendations and have the consumer build an itinerary or trip plan from that and be able to customize it .

They can share it with their friends and family , and so that's another big thing for the destinations , where now they're getting information , registered users which is something that I don't think most of them have today , right where they're building out their marketing lists and they're really increasing the time on site that the consumer is spending when they're really

engaged in building out their trip . But I think one of the things that when people start to partner with us , they really start to understand is it's also about not just like the businesses and the partner handoffs that's a big part of the DMOs but the insights the insights they can clean from the chats that are happening , all those messages back and forth .

Now I have a really good understanding of the questions people actually have about my destination and my local partners and what they're looking at , and with OnTrip they'll even be able to know did they actually do that ? Did they actually go there ?

And so these insights will help them with planning , will help them with their own messaging to their members and they'll be able to recognize the type of content that maybe they don't have that they need . So there's an abundance of information that will be supplied and insights that will be supplied by having MindTrip embedded in their websites .

Now , ben and I go back , of course , many years , even in my previous role , and we actually got a chance to connect here at Focusrite last year , and it was actually that moment where Ben took me through a demo of the platform when the company was still known as Curated Planet , and I said to Ben I wish I had this type of technology in my last two

multi-day tour companies , and those companies also tried to build up the tech , but never quite got to the level of sophistication that you've built out . And so , ever since that conversation , it's been quite the year of us collaborating together .

Obviously , I'm a big believer in everything you've been working on , and one of the things that we collaborated on was the rebrand , of course , which you're now Tour Optima . Thank you , of course . No , exactly , and it's great to see .

I mean , for those people watching the video , they can see your shirt and your branding and it's awesome to see how the business has grown and evolved over this past year . But for those people who don't know Tour Optima , would you mind giving everyone a bit of a background about this business you've created and exactly what it is you guys do .

The second product , which is integrated into that mobile app but also available cross-platform , is a communication platform for tour operators . Right now , if you're a tour operator , whether day or multi-day , you rely heavily on WhatsApp messages and SMS and emails and communications are split between you and the guide and the guests .

It's kind of like Uber before or taxi dispatch before . Uber came around and we think of what that was like and that was only phone calls , right , and as a tour operator , you're dealing with emails , you're dealing with WhatsApp messages , you're dealing with guide issues .

So unifying that into one system , just the same way that Uber transformed transportation , is what we do .

Because it is a major problem , and obviously you would know well that any great , successful startup needs to have a problem they're going to solve .

And so that's what impressed me when you demoed the platform for me a year ago , that I was just like , oh my god , so many tour operators struggle with this and they don't even realize that , um , it is such an issue because they use whatsapp .

They think they have other solutions that can give them what they need , but they're totally missing the bigger opportunity of having a communication platform to connect leaders to their guests . And so I see so many benefits to the platform .

But tell us how you got to that point , because obviously I know you started with day tours and have now moved into multi-day . So how did you actually end up kind of going down this path to create this technology solution ?

And then we went to an arrival conference and we spoke to some day tour operators and for a day tour operator , every single day is arrival day and you've got buses , you've got pickup vehicles , you've got an order of magnitude more travelers on a day tour than you have on a multi-day .

So every day becomes a logistical challenge of getting people into the bus , out of the bus to the meeting point , not leaving anyone behind , making sure that everyone's dietary preferences are filled out at a scale of millions of travelers a year for each of these operators . So we solve that problem first and then jumping back to multi-day is a walk in the park .

I mean , it's a piece of cake when you've got a , whether it's a small group tour , even a bus of 50 people . They're together for a week making sure that all those communications are in sync and everyone's on time and happy .

how your your operation already is functioning .

If you're staying at the hotel , you can be picked up in the lobby , but if you're not , you're picked up at the security gate because the bus can't get into the hotel . The bus is going to look different every day , your driver's going to be different every day .

The bus might be delayed or late and if it is and there's not solid communication , everyone's calling into the operation center saying where's my pickup ? Did you leave me behind ? If someone hasn't specified the pickup because they booked months in advance , they don't know where they're staying .

You have to reach out to them , you have to request the pickup , you have to upsell them , you have to say hey , you're going to Chichen Itza , do you also want to do a cenote ? Or let's do something else while you're here ? And then , of course , for day tour operators , reviews are critical and they're also important , for multi-day Tipping is important .

So a lot of these same pain points carried over between the day and the multi-day markets .

But clearly you're still signing up day tour and multi-day tour companies and I appreciate the clarification on the origin story being connected to multi-day and so you're back to where you started now in many ways and , as you just highlighted , it's actually simpler . But yeah , tell us how you're approaching multi-day .

My dad just got it , my mom still doesn't have it . Americans are like that . And you're also giving some control completely blindly over to your trip leaders and assuming that anything that happens on the trip they're just going to take care of and proactively report back , which oftentimes they do .

But to have insight into what is going on , not just pre-trip but on arrival day and then on trip , and making sure that the trip leaders are connected into that funnel and can simply send a message to the group or understand if Jane is arriving late because her flight is delayed proactively , and having that be all in sync between the operations team in the

office , the trip leader on the ground and the guest , and then owning the communication channel so that all of the rich photos and content that is exchanged on the trip is shared is owned by the tour operator , right ? You don't want that owned by WhatsApp . That's some great content right there .

So there's all these different elements of the value of owning the communication channel .

We use WhatsApp and it's like , but you're missing the overall point of the fact that you know that you can not only track all that content but , as you highlighted um , improve customer service to be able to understand what questions are being asked and like um , and ultimately , a happy guest is a guest that's going to return , the ones that are going to write

more positive reviews . The other thing that stood out to me in the way your business has evolved is that I know you pitched a lot previously to operations teams and this kind of highlights the point of you don't know what .

You don't know because , if you feel like everything is running smoothly , because it's , as you've highlighted , quite complex to run these tours and so some companies have figured out their way of doing it , but there's actually a better way , and Tour Optima is that solution , and so I'm encouraged to see many companies that have come around to it , both on the day

tour and the multi-day tour side .

So I think obviously the future is very bright , but tell us a bit more about the plans that you have in 2025 , as you continue to build out this platform and sign on more partners , because I think that's where you've got such an incredible opportunity to scale this business now , given the tech is , as what some people would say , feature complete , and I've heard

other companies say there's nothing , it doesn't do , and it's like you guys are incredibly responsive and so , yeah , tell us how you see 2025 playing out for Tour Optima responsive .

So , for a multi-day operator , understanding someone who might have smoke in the room , or we picked up a very funny story from one of our clients in Asia , and the sentiment analysis picked up complaints about Trump winning the election .

Not that I take any political stance , but it's funny that the AI is able to pick that type of thing up and just proactively alert the Tor operator to operational issues that might be happening on tour . And where we're going with this is into the pre-tour information collection .

So we already do this for day tour operators , which is , I haven't indicated my dietary preferences , or I haven't indicated a pickup , or I haven't uploaded certain documents , and understanding we already reach guests on multiple channels . So we do use WhatsApp to reach guests .

If they don't have the operator's own app or if they don't read the message , we'll deliver that through email .

But collecting the responses from that customer , organizing this into the database and then realizing that , hey , now we don't need to request this in the future and hopefully simplify that arrival day pain point for that tour guide or the trip leader , where they need to go around whether it's a day tour or a multi-day tour and gather that missing information .

All that information is already there and I think that is very important in terms of what we're doing , as well as some of the on-trip automations we can already , for example , much more effective to pre-prompt users that hey , if you're interested in rafting as an opportunity during the day instead of your free time , now's the time to sign up , and here's the link

. And using AI a bit more in terms of delivering those upsell opportunities , rather than programming that into the algorithm in the system .

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Now back to the show . I'm joined by my good friend , marius Nagand , who to the show . You've actually been on an incredible journey yourself , not only with the success of Iwanda this year , but the travels you've been undertaking to be at various conferences , and I think this is your third focus , right .

And I guess our partnership , which I'm going to announce on stage tomorrow , is with CitySightSync , so the world leader in hop-on , hop-off experiences , where we're integrating our AI travel companion directly within their app Very cool .

You kindly asked me to get involved and obviously I was more than happy to , and we have caught up a lot over this past year and I think very highly of you , the team and what you're building , and I think that this is you're on the cusp of a major breakthrough , and this is why I'm not only keen to have you a part of this conversation because you truly

will be a highlight of focus , right ?

So I mean , for every reason , I want you to be on part of this specific episode but also I think there's so many people that are only just going to be made aware of iWander , especially as this city sightseeing partnership comes to life , and I think , all of a sudden , a lot of heads are going to turn and people are going to say wait a second , could you

guys build something like that for us ? And could you guys build something like that for us ? And the answer , I'm assuming , is going to be yes and get in line , because there's so much potential for the tech and the platform you've built with partners .

So tell us a little bit about , I guess , what you're going to be showcasing here at Focusrite and what some of the plans are for iWander in 2025 .

We're basically going to showcase a hotspot for this year's Hot 25 list , so their annual list of like 25 startups to watch .

And , yes , I'll be presenting our City Sightseeing partnership , giving a little demo of the app and also hopefully calling out new partners as well from within the industry , because our technology works really well across different verticals , whether that's hop on , hop off , cruise airlines , hotels .

So , yeah , excited to meet some new partners and I might have you plant a couple of questions . Can I work with you ?

So how did you find that event leading up to this ?

But also the content they put on is just incredible . But also the content they put on is just incredible . You can go into a half-hour talk about the future of Air Cargo and come out and actually be engaged the whole way through , which is quite rare for a conference , and it's not just companies pitching their products or pitching themselves .

I think they do a really good job at moderating it so that you get real value from every discussion , every panel .

I think they're an ideal spot for networking , for learning , and I really think that what happens here kind of showcases what is going to happen in our travel industry for the next six months , and so that's why I'm excited for you guys to be part of this conversation , and I think that there's going to be a lot more people talking about iWander after they see

you on the main stage , hear this episode and everything else you have planned . Given your overall plans for iWander and where you see this industry going . I'd love to get your take on 2025 and some of the trends that you're paying attention to . So what keeps you and Antoine up at night excited about building up the platform ?

What keeps you and Antoine up at night excited about building up the platform ?

What I'm super excited about is hearing everyone dealing with the same problems , so there's a couple of themes which keep coming back over and over again . First is obviously personalization and you know this is nothing new . People keep speaking about it , but I think there's a real . You know this is really the core of what we do .

And then hearing bigger travel brands trying to figure out oh how , you know , how do we do this ? How do we bring in contextual , contextual information ? How can we pull more , extract more value from the customer um or customer data ? I think that's the first thing and it's something which we work really hard on .

The second piece , actually , which I'm hearing more and more , is contextual product upsells .

So how can we sell that product , or like a portfolio of products , to our customers at the perfect place , perfect time , and it doesn't necessarily have to be your own product , your core product , but like ancillary , something which flights , for instance , do really well , and I think that's starting to creep into different verticals and I find that very exciting .

And I think that the third has to be future research and how you discover products , and I mean everything to do with social selling as well . I think I see it as one big opportunity , and how are people going to be searching and finding these travel products in the next five years ? It'll be super exciting .

One of our guests mentioned the fact that pretty much every booth in this exhibitor hall has AI mentioned on it , and either they were last minute additions , but it seemed like it was a rite of passage to have AI to actually have a booth here .

And , sure enough , I looked around and , yeah , it is everywhere , and you and I also know that's for good reason , because AI is transforming so many industries and business models . But , specifically as it relates to search , it's one of the things I'm keen to get your take on , because Google has always been the big behemoth in the travel industry .

Google , of course , not only generates so much revenue from travel companies the big OTAs is a great example of that booking and Expedia but with customers actually turning to search GPT and embracing AI tools , what do you think is going to happen in 2025 ?

I mean , google still generates 75% of their revenue from search and obviously that's going to continue to be . They've always been a bit of one trick horse with their revenue model to be . You know , they've always been a bit of one trick horse with their revenue model . But where do you see the battle ? How do you see it playing out in 2025 ?

And how significant do you think AI driven search and search GPT ? How quickly is that going to eat away at Google's business model ?

You know , you said like google , but like youtube , it's part of google and like I see that , as I consider that to be search as well , and I think what we'll see is a convergence between traditional search , where you just type into a chat bar , and content .

So content driven search and finally , that ability to you know really deliver the right message or the right content in a way which is not just information , it keeps them engaged . Yeah , you , you , you work on creating a really engaging message , almost a story , and then you push your product after .

So it's basically content-driven search versus , you know , pure transaction-driven search .

But I guess , annie , first off , welcome to Travel Trends . Great to have you with us . Thank you , dan . I'm excited to be here .

That's awesome . So tell us a bit about Pinerary and what you guys do .

So you just like you , go to Spotify to find a music playlist that you love and you save it to your user profile . Find a music playlist that you love and you save it to your user profile . You can find travel itineraries that inspire you , save those to your user profile .

You can use those to build a future travel and you can also create a travel itinerary from a trip that you just took .

You know there are so many different resources to look at when you're planning a trip and what we notice is that , no matter how long or how much research you've done , when you find a person who's been there before say , you have a friend that just traveled to Costa Rica and you're heading to Costa Rica what do you do ?

You ask them 5,000 questions about their trip . Well , how many days did you spend in Costa Rica ? Did you go to two towns or did you go to three ? And where did you spend in Costa Rica ? Did you go to two you know towns or did you go to three ? And where did you stay ? Did you feel safe ? Did you run a car ? Oh , you love this restaurant .

Should we make a reservation ? And we still are validating our travel plans with human beings , even though we have this plethora , these mountains and mounds of information on the internet . So why is that ? It's trusted , trustworthy advice from people that have been there before . So we thought , wow , why doesn't this exist ?

Why isn't there a platform where you can find beginning to end traveled itineraries with all of that granular information you're looking for ? So that's why we built Pinerary .

So we'll be able to make some really beautiful enhancements and build a mobile app .

It was like bootstrap as long as you possibly can , not to give up control and also to give you the ability to prove out the business model . So it's exciting that that's the stage that you're at in your journey . Tell us a little bit more about the business model and how you're planning to monetize the platform .

So travel advisors can feature the way that they travel and link back to their businesses , and we'll ask them to pay a membership . But for the everyday traveler the travel lover is what we like to call them in our community it's free for them . We're really exploring this . Is such a great avenue and way for travel brands to connect with their consumers .

So we're really looking to hotels , airlines what a great way to feature travel itineraries , ease the travel planning process for their guests and keep them coming around by having them share those experiences and those real travel itineraries that they've had at their properties .

And it's expensive and there's a number of reasons why right now the investment appetite is not as significant for B2C companies as it is for B2B companies , and you've got companies like Mindtrip AI , which started as B2C . They've also now expanded to B2B .

They haven't actually pivoted , but they've expanded to B2B and that's where they're going to drive most of their revenue . So great to hear that that's the path that you're on . So I'm assuming that's one of the other benefits of being here at Focusrite , but I'm keen to hear , given your first this year .

The connections that I've made today have been unbelievable , so it's inspiring .

And so , richie , great to have you here on Travel Trends .

Then we moved to New Jersey .

Then I got recruited as the president of Gulliver's Travel that's an operator , tour operator and then I did startups , startup world basically and I tried that and then during that my wife still refers as the midlife crisis so I decided to pursue my PhD and I decided , basically I started teaching part-time first and then , past 10 years actually , I'm a full-time

faculty at NYU in the hospitality school . So it just switched basically my career transition in a way .

You've been in industry and now you obviously you're a thought leader . You and I want to talk about some of the courses you teach , but tell us a little bit about what brings you to Focusrite here in 2024 . Have you been before ?

So when I actually switched to NYU and I'm like I didn't want to actually stop that , because this is definitely not an academic conference I've been in academic conferences . Some are pretty boring , not as nice as this one so I actually reached out to Pete , managing director of Focusrite , and then I said let's do a partnership .

So as part of that , I'm also a director of Incubator Innovation Hub at NYU , so we actually get them as a partner . So what , we actually have four NYU student ambassadors , so I take them here . They actually work during the show and they see the importance of networking .

And then we are also able to get an access to Focusrite reports and where I actually incorporate it to many of our syllabi when I teach travel , travel trends and everything . So in a way , it's actually a great research partner . So this has been 30 years now and I'm so glad to be here .

We actually came out with my boss , dean Graff , actually found a very nice grant $1.5 million so we opened we've actually switched the entire seventh floor it's kind of a mini WeWork and then we established this lab slash incubator and then we're students as long as they're NYU students either current students or NYU alumni and they can actually apply .

So every year we have that Similar like here startups are applying . This year we had about 21 startups applied and I actually , based on my contacts , we established mentors in investors club . So the students apply with their ideas it's generally early stage startups and so the mentors and investors select six startups and now we match them with mentors and investors .

So it's a six months program and at the end , similar to Shark Tank events , we do pitch days and the winner gets $20,000 . And I also establish a KISS fund Keep it Simple Security , so NYU now are able to actually invest within our students as well . So it's kind of a good one .

I always say it's their entrepreneurship dream comes through while they're studying at NYU , regardless of what they study basically . So it's a great ideas are coming up .

So for yourself , when you're also teaching , tell us a little bit about the courses you teach at NYU , because I was really intrigued when we were chatting yesterday , especially because it's about travel trends .

It's three classes per semester . So each semester I teach two undergrad and one grad class . For grad class , I created , actually about four years ago , trends in travel and tourism and hospitality because the students really did not know the major players , major trends and what's going on in this industry .

They didn't actually read enough , they didn't listen enough podcasts like this one or they didn't see the newsletter like the Focus Wire . So I created that class . It's been very , very popular . So in addition to that , I also teach destination marketing , placemaking and as well as , again , for the strategic brand management , for grad classes as well .

Those are my fortes .

So then , based on that , basically , I come up with certain trends and for each week we actually cover one trend . So , for example , one of the trends now like we've been talking about this , but I call this 800-pound gorilla is AI . So then one week we actually start AI usage in each vertical OTAs , hotels , restaurants , travel agents , travel insurance companies .

Then the second week we go to sustainability . And what do the sustainability , what do the players in the hospitality industry do in the sustainability ? Then we go to digital nomadism . One week we actually cover that . So we now know we don't know with the company's back-to-work policies is digital nomadism going to be a trend or not .

So we always update those as well . Or one of the trends also is space tourism right , so it's very new and what's happening in the space tourism arena . So that one week we covered and last year we covered a lot of metaverse one of my favorite technology we call this emerging technologies , augmented reality , virtual reality or try-before-you-book concept .

We teach the students using augmented realities and virtual realities . So I gather a lot of reports anywhere from , you know , unesco over there , from World Travel Organization , world Economic Forums , so there's really not a good book .

Now I'm actually very glad to get your podcast so that you'll definitely be part of my syllabi as well that we actually they have to read the reports on the selected trends each week and then we do the discussions overall and they have to find an article of the week about each trend from and I give them , you know , focuswire or MIT Lab and New York Times

and BBCs so that they have to read and then basically come up with applicability .

You've got schools like Cornell , of course , that are renowned for their hospitality programs obviously NYU as well . But in terms of creating those opportunities , I've been out of school now for 20 plus years , so you're at the heart of it .

So I was encouraged to hear from our conversation yesterday and now that these opportunities exist for someone like me that would have actually loved to have gone down this path right from the very beginning . But clearly , you come to Focusrite because there is so much you can benefit from the networks , the connections and also the learning .

So I'd love to hear what has stood out to you since we saw each other , even yesterday I'm sure you've been attending sessions and speaking to various people . So what are some of the standout highlights from Focusrite in 2024 ?

So that just really stood out . And one of the sessions that basically and we always talk about this AI hype or a reality Is AI past or present , or , you know , future , right ? So it's clear AI is not a feature . Ai is present Already . Other companies are actually going after . And then one of the speakers basically mentioned AI , reminded him that we're www .

The internet was in early 90s and I remember in fact , that gave me an idea . I'm going to be doing a masterclass in India and I'm going to actually use that clip . That's where Today Show Katie Couric and Brian Gumbel in 1991 or 92 , katie Couric was asking like what is this WW2 ? What is this internet ? Can someone explain to me ?

And then fast forward 30 years ago . And I think it was a very nice analogy that what AI is really like an internet 30 years ago . It's just it's going to grow much faster . So I think that really stood out to me . And then trying to find like there are a lot of money that's also for the startups .

Now my director had as the incubator , so that was also encouraging that . When I see many investors they're all looking for travel hospitality startups . So that's always encouraging for our students as well .

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And now back to the show . Hello everyone , and welcome to another live recording here at the Focusrite conference in Phoenix . And I now have the pleasure to speak to a Focusrite first-timer who just left the main stage and likely could be one of the big winners of this event . His name is Lin Dai and he's the CEO of a company called Superlogic Technologies .

And , for all of our listeners at home , if you want to check out the website as we're having this conversation , it is superlogiccom . Welcome , lin . Great to have you with us . It is superlogiccom .

I think you were saying to me there's a travel adjacent and related to loyalty , so tell everyone a bit more about what Superlogic is and what you guys do .

So we started this journey many years ago , actually In 2019 , we were kind of working with signed with Warner Music Group as our first major client and supplier . So if you think about the opportunity really is , the rewards and loyalty experience has completely evolved over the last 5 to 10 years .

Travel has become an indispensable part of any loyalty program , not just for travel native companies but for credit card programs . About two-thirds of all credit card points gets redeemed into the travel category , so that's both good and also today is very competitive .

Every major credit card company have their own booking portal and also where you can spend your points , or transfer partners . So what used to be kind of very innovative , very aspirational , now is kind of table stakes . So how do major loyalty programs , especially credit card programs , differentiate themselves ? So part of this idea is like , what else is aspirational ?

So entertainment experiences is kind of the trend that every program is thinking about .

Of course we need to , and my background is in technology and marketing . I see so much potential with AI . I work with a number of AI startups and one of the things that stood out to me as well is that you talk about personalization with AI , and clearly that is one of the megatrends for 2025 is how companies are going to embrace AI for hyper-personalization .

So tell us a little bit more about your journey on AI , because clearly every business today and now is an AI-powered business , and so how have you built that into your technology and what are some of the benefits you're seeing ?

I mean , we're talking about , we're curating , you know , over 100,000 different experiences from hundreds of different , you know , experienced merchant providers , right , these are major labels , these are artists , managers , these are like top sports teams , everything from backstage passes to , to course , I seats to see your favorite NBA player .

So all the travel companies are the particle company , have a lot of data on where you travel , right , or maybe where you dine . So there's , there's actually very little data on kind of the type of specific subcategory of interest , right .

Even if they know , like you love music and I love music , they may not necessarily have the data to say like , hey , you are a , you know Swifty and I love Linkin Park , right . So that layer of data to be able to surface the right offer , the right experience for you , is very important . So you know , we're in the beginning of that .

We use a combination of proprietary data and also certainly some of the biggest LMs , so it's a very exciting area to kind of tackle right now .

What does 2025 look for you ? Where are you at right now in your overall growth and what does 2025 look like ?

That is like you know they try to solve it in 24 , 25 . So we are kind of the leading provider as a third party provider for a airline or a credit card company or a hotel group to supplement what they can do internally .

Right , this doesn't necessarily replace sponsorship efforts but you know , at the end of the day , an airline is an expert at running planes or partnering with credit card companies , but not necessarily the expert in negotiating VIP backstage passes to Lady Gaga .

But there's so much potential in the US market . Still . The average loyalty program by a major bank , airline or hotel group carries about anywhere between $3 billion to $18 billion of unredeemed loyalty points . So we have quite a bit of 100x growth still ahead of us in the US alone .

It took me several years to finally get there and it's such a big deal to have that opportunity , that exposure here at the conference . But yeah , tell everyone what you were speaking about today and what else brought you to Focusrite .

People are very friendly , open , so it's been a great experience . So I went on stage and did the . You know there's a program called Launch at Focusrite , so they specifically cater to kind of the upcoming trends and the hottest new startups in the travel tech or travel tech adjacent space in our case .

So I'll get a chance to do a presentation share about our company offerings and what we're looking for .

But I think , even just being in that category I know Mindtrip , for example they got brought into the top 25 and Amex Ventures rushed in to invest in them in this last oversubscribed round . So it's just great to be a part of that network and be on stage . I have the pleasure now to sit down with Boris Belstra . He's all the way from Brussels .

He's the co-founder of a company called Hubby eSIM and I was really keen to have him on this conversation because we've actually not had an eSIM company and I want not only this episode to be very representative of all the types of companies that are here , but I'm actually genuinely fascinated by this space because it's been a frustration for me in all of my

global travels for many years , and so welcome Boris . Great to have you on Travel Trends .

You can do it through a mobile application that allows you to buy data anywhere around the world . So we have 190 countries , and then we also have regional SIM cards as well , and we work together with the travel industry as a conduit for our impact . We believe that no traveler should arrive in their destination not connected to the Internet .

That's a thing of the past and they also shouldn't pay extortionate roaming fees , like happened to you , and we think that the travel industry is perfectly positioned to help their travelers stay connected and then , of course , open this entire world of digital engagement , because once you connect somebody , you can keep engaging with them on their trip .

So that's what we do . We work together mainly with travel agencies , tour operators , insurance companies and OTAs all around the world , and we help them connect travelers all around the world , but this year we'll do travelers in 150 countries , which is really cool .

South Africa was the place where it was really born . You don't have data abroad . You want to get a SIM card . Then you have to go to the shop to buy the SIM card . We arrived at the shop to buy the SIM card , then they're like where's your passport ?

We forgot the passport at home , had to drive all the way back home , go back to the store and at that point you're like this is totally insane . Like we have rockets that are being caught by chopsticks , but we have to show a passport to get a flimsy SIM card . Do not have to pay thousands of euros for a digital SIM card .

That's where the passion for solving the product comes from , because , let's face it , internet is a core part of the travel experience , whether you like it or not . Sometimes you still get pushback from people that say oh no , I go on holiday to disconnect from my device .

You might do that at some point , yes , but you still need Internet to get from the airport to your hotel . You still need to send your loved ones a message . Nobody goes totally off the beaten track somewhere in Amazon . Very little people do that .

There's a lot of unrealized opportunity within travel , so keen to know where you are as a company and also where the opportunities are for you for growth . Is it major partnerships ? I'm assuming that's probably one of the reasons that you're here at Focus , right , but yeah , tell us where you guys are as an organization .

We've nailed the product from a consumer perspective , where we're really good at white labeling , we're really good at building really customer-friendly , customer-focused eSIM solutions , and where we're taking the company next year is signing on more travel partners all around the world .

So we are raising from industry investors , mainly for the distribution purposes , to get our product in as many people's hands as possible . Then , additionally , we're integrating a bunch of different telecom operators , which is worthy of the investment to be able to build a scalable tech backend . But I won't bore you too much with that For us .

It's really the most important part for us is our travel partners and making sure we have solid integrations with them , whether those are the OTAs , the tour operators , the travel agencies and keep innovating for them and understanding what they need .

The next step for us will be once the eSIM is properly integrated , is also helping these agents , helping these operators keep engaging with their customers in destination , and that's also one of the reasons why I'm here , because there are so many interesting companies here Holly Bob , for example , that helps companies you know keep connect with their customers and engage

with their customers long after they've traveled . There are so many European tour operators , travel agents . They sell a package and then they're like , okay , good luck , I've done my job , but you haven't .

There is still so much to do , so much to engage with , and all of the technology that is being discussed here today is necessary to unlock all of that value and create a much better travel experience . And eSIM is just this foundational element that is necessary to keep engaging with your customers .

Tell us what brought you here and what benefits you've realized so far .

It's really a melting pot of people all around the world . Now my main observation is you can walk up to anybody here , strike a conversation .

Nine out of 10 times there will be a decision maker and nine out of 10 times it will be a very , very interesting conversation where you can fit in your products or fit in the eSIM into the discussion in some kind of way and it will be very helpful .

Every conversation here has been really helpful , whether it's with fellow founders , whether it's with decision makers , whether it's with investors . I've learned from every single conversation here and that is that I cannot really say at all the other um , all the other conferences .

Obviously , there's been lots of hype and I think it's been probably validated , I'm assuming , in your experience here so far , because it is such a phenomenal travel industry conference , certainly one of my favorite , if not my favorite conference .

Yeah , what are some of the things that stood out to you so far from this event that either you didn't expect or were just initial highlights ?

There is an eagerness from executives and investors to integrate them throughout the entire industry as fast as possible and there is very little hesitation .

You see that , through AI , the rigid position , the rigid market position of the market-leading companies is being disrupted and these market-leading companies are open to work with startups to maintain on top of their position .

Let's say and that I do notice here there is openness , there is openness , there is openness to build the future and there is openness to collaborate to build that . And there is no preconceived . You know , there's no judgment whether you're a very small company or a very large company . It's what technology you have .

How can I make a better product for my customer ? And you don't need to be the biggest one or the smallest one .

One of the biggest highlights that I've heard consistently is that you have access to the decision makers here , which it's one thing to say that , but it's certainly something that Focusrite delivers on , and what a number of guests have highlighted to me is that when you're speaking to someone that's a senior executive decision maker , they're going to relay you to

someone in the company that's going to make sure that things move forward and things happen and get done , and so that's why they're adamant that some of the best deals in networking all comes out of being focused right . So I would also like to ask you , just given your position in the industry , what you're seeing as you scale up this business .

What are some of the overall trends that you are paying attention to in the travel industry for 2025 ? Clearly , you're paying very close attention to the eSIM world and telecom and how like , but in terms of AI or other aspects of marketing , what are some of the things that stand out to you as you grow your business and make your plans for 2025 ?

Obviously , they have a very sturdy position , but what is the next big OTA and what does it look like ? What is the format that it has ? Is it integrated with TikTok ? Is it integrated with TikTok ? Is it integrated with Instagram or is it integrated with ChatGPT ? What is going to happen there ?

That is what I'm really excited about , because that's also where I want to distribute my eSIMs .

So walk us through , if you wouldn't mind , how customers actually purchase them , even some of the cost model , if you wouldn't mind , and just highlight some of the partnerships that you have .

On the one hand , you can sell it , but what we really like to do is work together with partners that focus on their customers so much that they acknowledge that internet is a core necessity of the trip and therefore bundle it inside the package that they're already selling and provide it as a value add .

That's our specialty , and we work with a company , for example , on the Beach or Voyage Privé in Europe . These are tour operators that include eSIMs in their travel packages and they include our eSIMs , and we facilitate the entire customer journey .

So a customer books a travel package , let's say a holiday to Thailand or to Indonesia or to Mexico , and then the travel provider will be like a couple days before they leave , don't forget your eSIM , because you will need data .

What then the traveler does is they download our app , they redeem their eSIM inside our application and they're set , and that's the seamless journey that we want to create , because then , when they land in Thailand , indonesia or Mexico , they will be connected to the Internet , they will have a certain amount of Internet , a certain amount of data for a specific

amount of days and they will be able to purchase more through the application during their trip . So that's pretty straightforward . It shouldn't be too complicated Commercial model for the tour operator . We see that the NPS rises significantly if you help your customers up to 13% that it rises If you help your customers with connecting them to the Internet .

It gives you better reviews , more loyalty and for a lot of our partners it also allows for a nice marketing tool to be able to grow their business and grow their market share . Additionally , you can also segment your different products and use it as a way to upsell other products .

So , for example , we work with an insurance company that has , let's say , a bronze , silver and gold package . Let's say , the bronze one doesn't include an eSIM , but the silver does the reason to purchase the silver one and it's also truly more value in the silver one because you can stay connected on your trip . You don't even have to think about it .

As a customer , you don't need to spend 10 , 15 , 20 euros on buying an eSIM because your travel provider has taken care of it . Because that's also a big reason why all of these travelers go to these package holiday providers because they want to be taken care of . They want to be taken care of .

Otherwise they would go to Skyscanner and they would go to booking and take care of the entire journey themselves . But they go to a travel provider because they want to be taken care of . That's why they go to a travel provider because they want to be taken care of . That's why they go to travel agencies as well , because they want to be taken care of .

They don't want to do all of it themselves . They want to be sure and they have trust and that's why we think that these travel agents are in perfect position to include it in packages and say you know what ? I even took care of that for you .

He's based in Israel and he's got a really compelling story to tell , so I'm thrilled to have this time to sit down with him , find out what brought him to Focusrite this year and learn a bit more about his business . So , michael , welcome , great to have you with us . Thanks , it's great to be here . Thanks for having me , of course .

Yeah , no , we've connected a few times leading up to this event , so let's start with giving everyone a brief overview of what you guys do .

So the experience is collaborative , but the digital platforms are not , and that's what we're here to solve . So we give our customers , which are the platforms , a simple way of making their platforms collaborative .

One of the things that Michael mentioned to me was that , during the pandemic , one of the ideas that they had because your background actually I'll let you tell this because I found this fascinating , so your background is not travel Tell everyone what your background is , because actually it's quite fascinating as well .

You're clearly a smart guy , but yeah , what were you doing before , joyn ?

It's like uh-huh , what's going on here , and we realized . Then it dawned on us these are two massive industries social media and travel generally , e-commerce which are really not working well together and there needs to be a way of connecting them . Placing ads on Instagram is not social shopping .

People need to shop together in a much deeper level than just exploring ads on Instagram . We need to talk while shopping across so many things , and in travel especially so .

the different dynamics , who's going to lead this and then how they're going to manage the rest of the group . So tell us a little bit more about the actual user experience with Join and the companies you work with .

How much of the business is B2B and how much , obviously , are you trying to optimize for the consumer experience to make sure that people love their social shopping experience ?

We help the website maximize the revenue by helping their visitors make the decisions . So they arrive on the website . Now they found the three hotels or three flights , and now they need to talk to their friends .

So instead of leaving the website cart abandonment galore , we keep them on the website , give them a platform that's optimized for them to make a decision , which is building a wish list that they can vote on , comment per item , a bunch of other tools to make decisions , and that leads for them a better experience of making a decision on what to book , and for

the website it means increased revenue .

These are the two big things that we see upcoming in what the users need in order to make their decision and to expedite their booking on the website just staying on the website while they make the decision to book , and I noticed that the solutions are mainly focused , at least at this point , around OTAs and hotels .

What are some of the markets you've entered , whether it's with , obviously , the OTAs or hotels ? I know you're based in Israel , which is actually a great place to be positioned globally to run a business , because your time zone can actually work for most global time zones .

But , yeah , tell us where you're starting to see traction and what your expansion plans are for the next year .

Despite this concern about revenge travel being over , the reality is there's so many factors or tailwinds in our favor demographic changes and the fact that , when travel was taken away from both of us and everyone else , that people are never going to take it for granted again .

And so in traveling social travel we look at the rise of all these group travel companies , companies like Intrepid . The idea that people travel WeRode is another amazing example . WeRode they consider themselves more to be a community than a travel company , and so the whole idea of the social connection that people are seeking in planning their trips .

So , anyway , I think the future is bright for you guys , which I'm excited for ? Yeah , but tell us a little bit more about what brought you to Focusrite this year . And I know you've been to some of the events before , but , yeah , clearly this is one of my favorite industry conferences .

But yeah , I know we're sitting here on effectively day two , so you've probably already had quite a few meetings or been to some sessions . But , yeah , tell us what brought you to Focusrite this year and what some of the benefits you've seen from being here so far , man , this is the place to be .

This is the place to catch up on what's going on , meet all of our existing customers and our future customers , learning about what they care about , what their priorities are going forward , strengthening all the relationships , striking up new deals and just meeting all the movers and the shakers . This is the place to be .

You've heard them mentioned all throughout season four , it's Stay 22 , and I have the pleasure now to sit down with the CEO and founder , andrew Lockhead , a fellow Canadian , but he's from Montreal , so he's got a lovely French Canadian accent , as you'll hear , and he's got a remarkable story to tell .

So , andrew , thanks so much for your support on the show and thanks so much for joining us .

I know you've been up for a number of awards and your business is now truly becoming a rocket ship . But tell us how it all started and how you created this business .

And by working alongside , we figured out that the distribution channel for selling this was through events like ticketing and going so on , and we just managed to raise a bit of money out of this , grew the company like 4X over a year and it's like a really good stride .

So we're like you know what State22.com will cost ? $5.99 on the GoDaddy , and that's good enough for us . Perfect on the GoDaddy , and that's good enough for us .

So we laid off more than two-thirds of the team and decided to just launch different product to the market , and one of them really worked well . With content creator , we figured out that those guys are true artists at heart .

They love creating videos , doing video montage , taking pictures , writing blogs , but when it comes to the monetization aspect of their platform , they're not the best at it , and that's how we came into this .

We saw there was a big gap in the market and opportunity for them to make more revenues by working with people that are specialized in that area , and that's what State 22 brought to the table for them .

So , um , but tell everyone , uh , with the model , um stage 22 , the idea of being able to give content creator or publishers that ways to generate revenue .

One of the things that's stood out to me in a number of your partners had mentioned it to me , um was how you've leveraged AI successfully to build out these widgets that allow people to book accommodation on a travel bloggers website and get uh commissionable revenue or affiliate program revenue from that , but how quickly you can deploy these solutions and scale them

. So tell everyone a bit more about that solution and how that's working out for you guys . Yeah .

We're going to come up with one solution that's going to take the full ownership of your platform and we will decide what's best for you and your audience , instead of figuring out like you should use this or X or Y no , no , state 22 will take care of it and optimize as it goes through LLM .

So we're using , actually right now , gemini and a bit of HOD to actually read information from the page , figure out whatever content is the best for the user , whatever provider will be for best as them , and sometime we're even able to adapt and optimize the content for them . So this way they can generate more revenues without having to lift a single finger .

So you essentially aggregate all of those options together for a content publisher a influencer if you will and then give them the opportunity to essentially create passive revenue on their website by adding these tools . That are , from what I understand , some of the stats I'd recorded for a recent ad .

You guys served up like 3 billion pages this year and also contributed to about 500 million in total revenue .

That's one of the things that a lot of companies have been struggling with revenue because , obviously , google algorithm changes and so they're struggling to maintain their revenue and the idea for you guys is that you can add this into your site quickly , seamlessly , like three quick steps , and it doesn't change any of the existing coding of your website or existing

partners . You just add this in over everything else . So , yeah , take us through those steps . What's leading to all the success you're having ?

We'll be able to read the information and it's got optimized through time , pretty simple .

It's more professional versus the influencer that are micro , that are more neophyte . So for us , we wanted to offer two different types of services in terms of customer , but also product . So one of them will be really about finding out missed opportunities for creators , while the other one will be about optimizing what they're currently doing and working with .

And don't forget we do send out our monthly newsletter , which will be going out very shortly , to highlight season five , which launches January 15th 2025 . And we've got more than 25 episodes , with 35 guests and five amazing themes coming up for that season , which we will talk a bit more about as we wrap up season four .

But thanks so much for joining us on this . Make sure to check out our social channels Instagram , linkedin and YouTube for highlights from these conversations . Until next time , safe travels .